paul winsper and game fitness

[bignickel]

my thread got closed yesterday because it was to be discussed in the post game thread. however, i don't feel this was a post game comment of mine, i've questioned this guy all year.
i know tactics have alot to do with closing out games, but our guys in a game with or without majority of posession seem to always be exhausted in the final 20-30 minutes.
close if you wish but our -9 goal diff. in final 15 minutes is 33% of our games and warrants its own discussion.

[sweetlemon69]

I agree with Bignickel. Major topicis like this, I'd rather not flip through pages and pages of spew/ranks in the post game threat.

[billyfly]

It's all about how you word things and when. Mods will see this type of this discussion after a big loss to just be drunkin' raving.

[wzhxvy]

I think the Paul Winsper discussion is largely academic because I think he and CC will be gone at the end of the season regardless. I do get my panties in a knot however when I see him yacking on TV like he is god's gift. Last night's loss was not his fault but overall team fitness is...and he has done an average job at best (being generous).

[Dirk Diggler]

I think the Paul Winsper discussion is largely academic because I think he and CC will be gone at the end of the season regardless. I do get my panties in a knot however when I see him yacking on TV like he is god's gift. Last night's loss was not his fault but overall team fitness is...and he has done an average job at best (being generous).

Agreed. I think a lot of people are dumbfounded by this lack of match fitness especially combined with the fact that he was touted as being the best in the business when he was initially signed. I remember everyone going ga-ga over him when it was announced that he would be working for us. I assumed that he was some hot shit fitness coach from England that I did not know about and moved on. However, it seems as if people, as usual, were over hyping an average guy who has most definitely done an average job, at the very best, thus far.

[bignickel]

It's all about how you word things and when. Mods will see this type of this discussion after a big loss to just be drunkin' raving.

i am sure you meant ranting, but regardless, it got transferred to the post game thread and i never even mentioned last nights game in particular.
i don't think calling a guy out who has not accomplished his duty as drunkin ranting, considering we all complain that the team is out of shape.
i never insulted winsper but i would definitely let him go at seasons end.

[massive_magpie]

injuries and fitness pre-PW vs. injuries and fitness now = worth is weight in gold

This year we're one of the best sides when it comes to injuries and recovery. Fitness were not finishing a game as strong as I'd like, but we're miles ahead of where we were before him (and pretty much every other team as well, if not equavlent).

Paul Winsper is a scapegoat for a shitty season, nothing more. All the cards are on the table, we're just not playing them right.

[Davenport]

Agreed. I think a lot of people are dumbfounded by this lack of match fitness especially combined with the fact that he was touted as being the best in the business when he was initially signed. I remember everyone going ga-ga over him when it was announced that he would be working for us. I assumed that he was some hot shit fitness coach from England that I did not know about and moved on. However, it seems as if people, as usual, were over hyping an average guy who has most definitely done an average job, at the very best, thus far.

If he was good he would never have come here. He would have been in demand in Europe.

[bignickel]

injuries and fitness pre-PW vs. injuries and fitness now = worth is weight in gold

This year we're one of the best sides when it comes to injuries and recovery. Fitness were not finishing a game as strong as I'd like, but we're miles ahead of where we were before him (and pretty much every other team as well, if not equavlent).

Paul Winsper is a scapegoat for a shitty season, nothing more. All the cards are on the table, we're just not playing them right.

actually, the whole reason i brought this up is because i feel we are noticeably more tired than the other team regardless of who has the most posession throughout the match.

definitely not using him as a scapegoat but i definitely believe this team would be in the top 8 standings if they were in better shape.

[Brooker]

injuries and fitness pre-PW vs. injuries and fitness now = worth is weight in gold

This year we're one of the best sides when it comes to injuries and recovery. Fitness were not finishing a game as strong as I'd like, but we're miles ahead of where we were before him (and pretty much every other team as well, if not equavlent).

Paul Winsper is a scapegoat for a shitty season, nothing more. All the cards are on the table, we're just not playing them right.

+1111111111111

[Shakes McQueen]

injuries and fitness pre-PW vs. injuries and fitness now = worth is weight in gold

This year we're one of the best sides when it comes to injuries and recovery. Fitness were not finishing a game as strong as I'd like, but we're miles ahead of where we were before him (and pretty much every other team as well, if not equavlent).

Paul Winsper is a scapegoat for a shitty season, nothing more. All the cards are on the table, we're just not playing them right.

This is roughly where I am. I recall when Barrett arrived here from Chicago, he basically couldn't play a full 90 minutes without cramping up. Winsper has more or less eradicated this issue, and Barrett credited him with as much in an interview.

I don't think he's is a "God" at what he does, and I think deifying a fitness coach is fucking stupid to begin with. I do, however, think he does a more than competent job, and I think blaming him for the performance of our team is just looking for a new excuse to throw on the pile.

When you use the kind of "strategy" we do - going up a goal, and then booting the ball upfield for the last 35 minutes, to keep it out of your half, you're bound to get tired. Long ball tires a team's legs out.

A competent team would try to keep possession, and run the other team into the ground. Instead, we treat the ball like it's a hand grenade, and give our opponent all the possession in the world - ensuring we spend too much time ball chasing.

Last night was a great example - we go up 2-1, and suddenly the team's tactic shifts from pushing forward, to just clearing the ball out of our half over and over again. giving it right back to Chicago.

- Scott

[rocker]

one way the coach could limit the tiredness --> play some subs.
Last night was the perfect chance to use all three subs.
Road games are classic failures for just about every MLS team, given the massive travel that takes place. That's why using all three subs, and using them a bit earlier, is paramount on the road where fatigue comes in faster.

[bignickel]

This is roughly where I am. I recall when Barrett arrived here from Chicago, he basically couldn't play a full 90 minutes without cramping up. Winsper has more or less eradicated this issue, and Barrett credited him with as much in an interview.

I don't think he's is a "God" at what he does, and I think deifying a fitness coach is fucking stupid to begin with. I do, however, think he does a more than competent job, and I think blaming him for the performance of our team is just looking for a new excuse to throw on the pile.

When you use the kind of "strategy" we do - going up a goal, and then booting the ball upfield for the last 35 minutes, to keep it out of your half, you're bound to get tired. Long ball tires a team's legs out.

A competent team would try to keep possession, and run the other team into the ground. Instead, we treat the ball like it's a hand grenade, and give our opponent all the possession in the world - ensuring we spend too much time ball chasing.

Last night was a great example - we go up 2-1, and suddenly the team's tactic shifts from pushing forward, to just clearing the ball out of our half over and over again. giving it right back to Chicago.

- Scott

you hit the hammer on the nail with strategy, giving posession to chicago last night for the last 30 minutes was a recipe for disaster.
you take that, coupled with the fact that we are brutal in the air and the fact that we are out fitnessed in the last third of the game and you can see why we can't close out games

[Oldtimer]

The "fire whoever" threads that pop up like toadstools after a disappointing game do need to be closed, or the board goes out of control. However, thoughtful conversation about team fitness the following day is certainly most welcome. So do go on...

[Oldtimer]

A competent team would try to keep possession, and run the other team into the ground. Instead, we treat the ball like it's a hand grenade, and give our opponent all the possession in the world - ensuring we spend too much time ball chasing.


- Scott

Good analysis Scott, that's exactly what I saw last night. No fitness "guru" is going to make up for our deficiencies in possession. As far as our possession problems, one does not have to look any further than Chris Cummins. That is something the coach is responsible for.

[denime]

you hit the hammer on the nail with strategy, giving posession to chicago last night for the last 30 minutes was a recipe for disaster.
you take that, coupled with the fact that we are brutal in the air and the fact that we are out fitnessed in the last third of the game and you can see why we can't close out games

Since he hit the hammer on the nail with strategy,is that mean we can close this thread now ? ;)

[Roogsy]

Shakes is correct. Winsper is no god. He simply improved on the poor conditioning we had under Mo Johnston. Now we are basically at par with where we should be conditioning-wise, but I think he's been made to be such a genius that the perception is out there that he is somehow making the team excel when all he did was make the team perform where they should be, or close to it.

But I do agree that this team isn't lasting a full 90 minutes. Is that Winsper or overtraining during the week? Who knows? What I do know is we have much less injuries than in our first year, that much is fact. Beyond that, I don't think Winsper is anything special.

[Pigfynn]

I think that an important thing to remember is that players that are not naturally fit and also are less skilled end up in the MLS.

A really good example of this is Dirk Kuyt from Liverpool...loook at that guy, he is a naturally fit player. He can run all day long and he has a good amount of skill to go along with it. Take away the ability to hussle ALL the time and knock down the skill set and you have an MLS caliber player.

I'm rambling a bit but, if Chad Barrett for instance was a naturally fit player and a marginally better finisher he could play in say, the Championship because of other attributes. We will never get it all in an MLS caliber player because if they had the ability they'd be somewhere else playing, regardless of who the fitness coach is. IMO

[Chevy]

injuries and fitness pre-PW vs. injuries and fitness now = worth is weight in gold

This year we're one of the best sides when it comes to injuries and recovery. Fitness were not finishing a game as strong as I'd like, but we're miles ahead of where we were before him (and pretty much every other team as well, if not equavlent).

Paul Winsper is a scapegoat for a shitty season, nothing more. All the cards are on the table, we're just not playing them right.

+1. We look tired because we're shite at overall defending and our late-game tactics are extremely questionable, NOT because of fitness.

If you look back at previous seasons our injury situation has been FAR worse. I credit Winsper for helping here.

[James17930]

+1. We look tired because we're shite at overall defending and our late-game tactics are extremely questionable, NOT because of fitness.

If you look back at previous seasons our injury situation has been FAR worse. I credit Winsper for helping here.

Yep -- it's not Winsper. It's the coaching.

[bignickel]

Since he hit the hammer on the nail with strategy,is that mean we can close this thread now ? ;)

well strategy and fitness are completely different, but you are the mod and have the power to close all things not worthy!:rolleyes:

[Pookie]

I think this is a worthy discussion.

You can't put the blame on one guy for team fitness but I do think that whomever is responsible for conditioning and nutrition has a high degree of responsibility.

Tactics, as pointed out above, contribute to the problem. That said, this is a coaching staff and they need to be working together to ensure that fitness levels can support the tactics employed. If not, then they need to use their subs effectively to support the game plan.

The one group that isn't getting any blame are the players themselves. At what point do they need to take responsibility for their preparation? The younger guys are trying to make it beyond the MLS. The older guys are trying to extend careers. If they are unable to drag their butts around a pitch for a full 90, find a way to improve.

There are plenty of examples of older players who have been able to compete in very demanding sports. Chris Chelios and Gary Roberts come to mind from the NHL. Each made it a personal mission to maintain an extremely high level of fitness. Working with the team's staff but also on their own to ensure they could compete.

Plenty of blame to go around but the one thing that is clear is that there is a problem.

[OneLoveOneEric]

Is it fitness or concentration?
I think the latter. The team just can't focus for a full 90 minutes. When you add to that the fact that we're only good enough to put our foot through the ball as hard as possible when in our own end, and leads will be blown.
I wish it was a fitness problem. It's not so hard to make guys work out.
What do you do when they're just not good enough :noidea:

[canadian_bhoy]

Hopefully this board will go after the towel boy next. He's terrible.

Players wait a lot longer than other teams do before they get towels both at half time and full time. With the weight being carried around by some of our players (Gerba) - we need a towel boy that knows what he's doing and can get the towels to the players faster.

This club is a joke. Fire the towel boy NOW.

[brad]

But I do agree that this team isn't lasting a full 90 minutes. Is that Winsper or overtraining during the week? Who knows? What I do know is we have much less injuries than in our first year, that much is fact. Beyond that, I don't think Winsper is anything special.

It's probably the opposite - under training during the week. Tired bodies get injured more. That may be more the fault of having to train on the turf than anything else.

[brad]

Is it fitness or concentration?
I think the latter. The team just can't focus for a full 90 minutes. When you add to that the fact that we're only good enough to put our foot through the ball as hard as possible when in our own end, and leads will be blown.
I wish it was a fitness problem. It's not so hard to make guys work out.
What do you do when they're just not good enough :noidea:

One feeds the other. The players look visibly gassed out there by the end of most away games - that's a fitness issue. Concentration is heavily affected by fatigue.

The fitness issue may not be correctable though - for the reasons Shakes mentioned.

[Tezza]

Sure the coaching tactics are bad....TFC does not know how to shut things down. The OP addressed that. His gripe is about fitness.

At about the 75 minute mark of every game we look noticeably more tired than our opposition. These are two separate issues that need to be addressed. Winsper does NOT have this team as fit as others in this league. For a guy that was is being touted as a "world-class" fitness coach we look anything but fit near the end of a game.

And just to clarify for all of you that are constantly looking for an argument around here.....I'm not saying Winsper should be fired...but he should be taken to task about the situation and told that either he figures out how to get this team to play for 90 minutes or we will have to find somebody that can.

[felipe]

I too have noticed the inadequacies of the towel boy...

I was just going to second brad - they do go hand in hand. Fitness and concentration.

Although some players have higher levels of concentration than others to start with.

It could also be a small squad, everchanging starting 11, at the end of a long season.

For whatever reasons, the squad really hasn't gelled and they don't play good enough team defence.

Which means working harder rather than smarter, everyone trying to overcompensate for the other guy, all game long.

Its not surprising they tire out.

[DOMIN8R]

Towel Boy? Are you kidding me? That is just plain silly.

At first I thought you were joking - but I guess I was wrong.

Everyone with half a brain can see it's the ball kids that are at fault here. They take too long to get the ball back to players. It's unaccepatable that in a professional league that the ball kids take 1.7 seconds before they return the ball. It tires the players out having to wait so long to throw the ball back into play. In other leagues the ball kids take only 1.2 seconds to get the ball back to the sideline.

.5 seconds x 30 times a game = player exhaustion.

Let's invest in ball kid training programs and a international standards. Only then can we expect our players to stay fit a whole 90!

[Hitcho]

CB - too funny mate!

Pigfynn - fair point in general, but there are exceptions. De Rosario? Just a thought.

Winsper - I think he;s done a brilliant job since he got here. Earlier in the season people were on the boards saying what a big step up there had been in our match fitness. now all of a sudden it's the business end of the season, players are tired and under pressure and giving the ball away a lot and Winsper is getting the blame? makes no sense to me. I hope we manage to retain this guy, because I think a top fitness coach (like Winsper) and a top head coach (like Nicol) would be a deadly, deadly combo in this league, especially now the playing squad is looking so much stronger.

[v00d00daddy]

Winsper - I think he;s done a brilliant job since he got here. Earlier in the season people were on the boards saying what a big step up there had been in our match fitness. now all of a sudden it's the business end of the season, players are tired and under pressure and giving the ball away a lot and Winsper is getting the blame? makes no sense to me. I hope we manage to retain this guy, because I think a top fitness coach (like Winsper) and a top head coach (like Nicol) would be a deadly, deadly combo in this league, especially now the playing squad is looking so much stronger.


Maybe people were wrong at the start of the season? Not saying I agree, but it could be the case.

Again....the TFC myth reveals itself. This is just like people saying that Cummins is great at developing youth players.

Where does the notion that Winsper is a "top fitness coach" come from?

Was it a coincidence that he spent a hundred years at Newcastle before this gig and he was hired during the John Carver era?

I'm not saying he is a bad fitness coach. I'm just saying I don't understand people being upset with those who say he may not be a very good one. Show me something in his CV that justifies calling him a "top fitness coach". What the hell is a top fitness coach. I've seen the segments with Lee Godfrey and it looks like he does what all other strength and conditioning coaches do.

This is something that TFC supporters created for some reason.

Guys like Winsper and Cummins (and Carver for that matter) were hired because of WHO they know....not WHAT they know.

[Hitcho]

^ fair enough, i see your point Voodoo. Although with a cub the size and stature of newcastle if winsper was there for a whiler then it's probably fair to say that he is of a pretty decent calibre, certainly decent enough for MLS. The PL is widely regarded as being the most intense top league in the league in terms of pace and power, so if he can manage a PL squad over a busy season successfully then he is easily good enough for an MLS season. I think that's about the best thing you could hope to see on his CV to be honest.

Cummins came in as a link but with a good youth pedigree. I don't think Mo ever once thought about CC becoming head coach, but what else could he do when Carver walked out? The options were sit it out for the season and try and pick up a decent MLS coach for 2010 or panic and hire someone just because they were available and we needed a coach.

[jloome]

Maybe people were wrong at the start of the season? Not saying I agree, but it could be the case.

Again....the TFC myth reveals itself. This is just like people saying that Cummins is great at developing youth players.

Where does the notion that Winsper is a "top fitness coach" come from?

Was it a coincidence that he spent a hundred years at Newcastle before this gig and he was hired during the John Carver era?

I'm not saying he is a bad fitness coach. I'm just saying I don't understand people being upset with those who say he may not be a very good one. Show me something in his CV that justifies calling him a "top fitness coach". What the hell is a top fitness coach. I've seen the segments with Lee Godfrey and it looks like he does what all other strength and conditioning coaches do.

This is something that TFC supporters created for some reason.

Guys like Winsper and Cummins (and Carver for that matter) were hired because of WHO they know....not WHAT they know.

He was Beckham's personal trainer for a year as well. He IS a top fitness coach. You don't get a job at Newcastle for any length of time unless you are.

Our fatigue issues have more to do with common sense than Paul Winsper. We close to slow and are too aggressive on the tackle, instead of marking tightly but waiting for opportunities. That means two or three times as many missed tackles in some games as our opponent, which is pretty tiring. Add in field turf that, even by amateur standards, has no spring left in it, and their legs are taking a pounding.

[mmmikey]

scrambling to cover defensive lapses for 70-80 minutes will result in tired legs for the last 15-20. which is fine, if u know your going to be doing that then u build your team from the start of the year to run other teams into the ground. i doubt they set out to do so at the start of the year, and its hard to continue to develop this fitness while the season is underway.

so it comes down to coaching & tactics vs the training staff & fitness. they need to help each other and compliment each other.. like the rest of the team tho, they don't seem to click the way we would like.

edit: can't take the players out of this equation. top tier players (that jerk berbatov aside) tend to train and live their lives like top tier athletes. they train hard, even when not with the team. do all of our players work as hard as the next?

[DOMIN8R]

I may be biased because I’ve had the opportunity to train with Windy but I can assure you that he is very competent. I have trained with dozens of trainers so I think I have a little perspective.

1996 Winsper graduated with a Sports and Exercise Science degree from Northumbia University in Newcastle. Subsequently he became a fitness coach with the Durham Cricket Club. Very short lived based on what I could find.

1996 becomes fitness coach fo rNewcastle United. 10 seasons later and after conditioning some of the biggest and best professional footballers in the EPL he, like most of coaching staff, quits because he can’t work with the management.

2006 Winsper starts/continues a strength and conditioning consulting company. Starts up some fitness clubs in England and consults to a few major sports labels.

2007 he works with Beckham privately to assist him to regain his strength and mobility subsequent to his near career ending injury at Real Madrid

2008 he joins Toronto FC as Strength and Conditioning Coach. Paul Winsper makes a huge difference in match conditioning and the players and management say so to the media about once a month for a whole year.

Windy continues to keep a minor role in his consultancy and continues to be one of Nike's main men in physical and strength conditioning as well as helping to create a fitness bible for the US Soccer Federation.

Since joining the team, players and management alike have spoken often of his ability to stay current with the latest sports and fitness research, technologies and unique ability to motivate players to train beyond their self imposed limits

My understanding is that he has made his mark in showing how proper conditioning can significantly reduce instances of player injury as our club statistics demonstrate. This was one of the main reasons he was brought to the club in the first place.

If someone can show me another MLS team Strength and Conditioning Coach with a better pedigree than this, then I will be very surprised.

One game where some players showed worse than expected match fitness is hardly justification for this thread.

[denime]

^ +1
Very well said.

Can I closed thread now? :hide:

[DOMIN8R]

Yes, please.

[bignickel]

.

One game where some players showed worse than expected match fitness is hardly justification for this thread.

you gotta start spending less time with 'windy' and start watching more games. one game, some players. hahaha
league leading 14 goals against in final 15 minutes of games, close the thread it can't be fitness!

[jloome]

you gotta start spending less time with 'windy' and start watching more games. one game, some players. hahaha
league leading 14 goals against in final 15 minutes of games, close the thread it can't be fitness!

Strawman argument. He didn't say it can't possibly be fitness, he said it ISN'T fitness.

That certainly opens up the possibility that maybe stacking 10 players behind the ball for 20 minutes has something to do with it. They're not all lying on the ground fatigued after the game, are they? No. So the suggestion that they're exhausted seems pretty thin.

More likely, our players are sitting on leads, plain and simple, and are bad man-markers who run too much throughout the game, as a result.

[DOMIN8R]

you gotta start spending less time with 'windy' and start watching more games. one game, some players. hahaha
league leading 14 goals against in final 15 minutes of games, close the thread it can't be fitness!

Where is your evidence that it is fitness? Give me more than a single stat that could be a result of a dozen different variables.

But you are right. This thread should stay open. It's obvious there are many differing views on this.

[Shaughno]

Strawman argument. He didn't say it can't possibly be fitness, he said it ISN'T fitness.

That certainly opens up the possibility that maybe stacking 10 players behind the ball for 20 minutes has something to do with it. They're not all lying on the ground fatigued after the game, are they? No. So the suggestion that they're exhausted seems pretty thin.

More likely, our players are sitting on leads, plain and simple, and are bad man-markers who run too much throughout the game, as a result.

...and tired themselves out by needlessly kicking the ball up field and chasing after it instead of playing a simple ball, keeping possession and wasting precious time off the clock.

No wait, it's got to be fitness. I mean, every game the players are lying on the pitch like Wes Shivers after an MMA fight.

:rolleyes:

[bignickel]

...and tired themselves out by needlessly kicking the ball up field and chasing after it instead of playing a simple ball, keeping possession and wasting precious time off the clock.

No wait, it's got to be fitness. I mean, every game the players are lying on the pitch like Wes Shivers after an MMA fight.

:rolleyes:

hahaha, you make it sound so easy, we have a hard time making 3 passes in row!

[Shaughno]

hahaha, you make it sound so easy, we have a hard time making 3 passes in row!


I've seen us do it. I know we can. Why we resort to the ol' Canadian 'Dump n chase' is beyond me...

[TorontoBlades]

Wait a minute, make the ball do the running for us.....what kind of laughable logic is that. Don't you dumb fucks know that the ball will get tired and not want to go in the net if we make it run too much....

...only weak football nations like the Brazilians do stupid things like make the ball do the work - FFS it doesn't even wear a TFC kit

[TorontoBlades]

I've seen us do it. I know we can. Why we resort to the ol' Canadian 'Dump n chase' is beyond me...


I know we can too....but, in all honesty when we string together 3 straight passes, for some reason the 3rd pass always seems to be back to Frei - followed by what effectively is a goal kick.

We need some more running off the ball in the middle of the pitch - we always seem to pass ourselves to the sideline, only to see Jimmy B bless us with the most obvious overlap in football history....then boom, attacking options are gone. More running, more interplay amonst the players in the center, create havoc there or push the defenders wide and move back to the middle spacing out the defensive shape of the opposition.

[Fishnicker]

I don't think Winsper's main training concern is aerobic fitness per se, certainly it's a component but not a focus. Players tiring late in the game indicates poor aerobic management.

The fittest person in the world can only sprint at 100% intensity (and maintian peak speed) for about 10 seconds or so. If you asked them to do it for 45 minutes they would be crawling and vomiting by the end.

All aerobic athletes have a certain mileage, determined by their aerobic fitness level. Learning to manage that mileage is probably more important than the fitness (assuming you're a pro athlete who's in amazing shape). Chad Barrett didn't improve his aerobic base (nor did he probably need to), he just learned that he coudn't go full out for 90 mins. No-one can.

As Domin8r said, Winsper is known for staying abreast of current methodologies and is well respected in his field. I think his expertise is injury prevention, recovery and sport specific conditioning. Outside of Amado (jet lagged, too many games with Honduras, no Winsper) I can't think of a player looking like their CNS has been fried from too intense workouts during the week. Year one, everyone looked fried at some point. I credit the change to Winsper.

Remember Carver talking about having every workout, recovery, weight room session etc. mapped out for the whole season? I'm sure that was all Winsper. Charlie Francis once said that you had better have a really good reason to do anything in training, as your mileage was precious. (side note- CF only let his sprinters run at 100% intensity for their distance 2 or 3 times a year. Too risky and takes too long to recover). I don't think Winsper does anything radically different from other trainers, but seems professional, knowledgable and meticulously prepared.

Other posters have pointed out ways for incredibly fit athletes to tire before the end of the game, and I agree. I don't think it's likely that Winsper has neglected fitness.

[bignickel]

I know we can too....but, in all honesty when we string together 3 straight passes, for some reason the 3rd pass always seems to be back to Frei - followed by what effectively is a goal kick.

We need some more running off the ball in the middle of the pitch - we always seem to pass ourselves to the sideline, only to see Jimmy B bless us with the most obvious overlap in football history....then boom, attacking options are gone. More running, more interplay amonst the players in the center, create havoc there or push the defenders wide and move back to the middle spacing out the defensive shape of the opposition.

i get the whole tactic thing, but the epl where winsper comes from is balls out running the whole game.
so, posession or no posession, i find it strange that we tire out well before games end regardless of the strategy.
i have seen us tire out before the opposition in a game where we controlled the play on various occasions.
anyway, my guess is we will see a coaching change next year and then we can really see whether the fatigue is an issue.

[MUFC_Niagara]

Hopefully this board will go after the towel boy next. He's terrible.

Players wait a lot longer than other teams do before they get towels both at half time and full time. With the weight being carried around by some of our players (Gerba) - we need a towel boy that knows what he's doing and can get the towels to the players faster.

This club is a joke. Fire the towel boy NOW.

Pretty much where I was going with this rediculous thread. Yes.....Winsper is the reason we are shit. :facepalm:

[bignickel]

Pretty much where I was going with this rediculous thread. Yes.....Winsper is the reason we are shit. :facepalm:

questioning winsper by no means signifies he is to blame for the team being shit....just a part of the blame.
i can't believe you post replies on ridiculous threads, quiet night on drummond i guess...

[MUFC_Niagara]

questioning winsper by no means signifies he is to blame for the team being shit....just a part of the blame.
i can't believe you post replies on ridiculous threads, quiet night on drummond i guess...

Your saying our poor fitness is the reason for conceeding goals late in games which we are losing. how are you not blaming him. I don't live on Drummond so I don't know how quiet it is there.

[bignickel]

Your saying our poor fitness is the reason for conceeding goals late in games which we are losing. how are you not blaming him. I don't live on Drummond so I don't know how quiet it is there.

no, i am saying that fitness has an influence on us conceding goals in the final 15 minutes, therefore i used that stat. i never claimed that it was the only reason.
c'mon, there is a thread of how many goals cunningham has this season and it doesn't get ridiculed but talking but our fitness level does.
actually-
cunningham = 14 goals
t.o. last 15 min. g.a. = 14 goals

therefore the reason we are losing is because cunningham is gone.

o.k, winsper is off the hook!!!!

[bignickel]

no, i am saying that fitness has an influence on us conceding goals in the final 15 minutes, therefore i used that stat. i never claimed that it was the only reason.
c'mon, there is a thread of how many goals cunningham has this season and it doesn't get ridiculed but talking but our fitness level does.
actually-
cunningham = 14 goals
t.o. last 15 min. g.a. = 14 goals

therefore the reason we are losing is because cunningham is gone.

o.k, winsper is off the hook!!!!

wow, i get to quote myself. we now have allowed 15 goals in the last 15 mins of games.
we controlled the game and still looked more tired at the end of the game so the possession theory is out, barrett is still cramping so really no change with him and we weren't even running into open spaces.
tactics, skill and pace are all factors but this team is out of shape!
get rid of winsper! mods, i am writing this sober and 19 hours after the game so it is not a drunkin' rampage that needs to be closed.

[SoccMan]

Do other teams have a fulltime fitness coach in this league, does anybody know? Why do we need a high priced fitness coach anyways? I'm sure there are people with good qualifications here in Toronto that can do a decent job as a fitness coach on a part time basis, I still don't see the need for paying the money they do to Whisper. The name of the game is winning and making the playoffs and yes I know we can't be blaming a fitness coach for not getting the results and making the post season, I think MLSE are wasting good money on this guy.

[SoccMan]

I think it's a simple as letting MO go. He is a great scout, I will give him that, but he is a lousy GM period. I don't care who they hire as coach, they could hire Fabio Cappelo, or even Jose Marinho and we will still be shit. The root of the problem is Mo, and until he is gone this team will not improve end of story!

[ilikemusic]

The name of the game is winning and making the playoffs and yes I know we can't be blaming a fitness coach for not getting the results and making the post season, I think MLSE are wasting good money on this guy.

But he made a DVD! A DVD! How can we let a guy like that go?!

:rolleyes:

[Dirk Diggler]

Do other teams have a fulltime fitness coach in this league, does anybody know? Why do we need a high priced fitness coach anyways? I'm sure there are people with good qualifications here in Toronto that can do a decent job as a fitness coach on a part time basis, I still don't see the need for paying the money they do to Whisper. The name of the game is winning and making the playoffs and yes I know we can't be blaming a fitness coach for not getting the results and making the post season, I think MLSE are wasting good money on this guy.

LOL ... come on man ... you can't fault MLSE for actually spending money on a guy. My problem with this entire Winsper situation is how much he was hyped up when he came here (and I guess it is my fault for buying in to the hype) and how mediocre he has appeared (through our team's fitness in the last minutes of the game) since then. I suppose there is a very small range of tangible contribution a fitness coach can make within the frame work of a football team.

Either way ... once again I have to say that bignickel is not out to lunch with his doubts about Winsper. Yesterday was just another example of how our team shit the bed despite holding possession for a respectable amount of the game ... to place the blame exclusively on Cummins for his lack of tactics would be daft. Certainly fitness has to figure in somewhere in there.

[Rudi]

Anyone who claims that yesterday was a fitness issue needs to be punched in the balls.

Yesterday (and all season) is all about Cummins, and about the man who put him there.

[Carts]

Do other teams have a fulltime fitness coach in this league, does anybody know? Why do we need a high priced fitness coach anyways? I'm sure there are people with good qualifications here in Toronto that can do a decent job as a fitness coach on a part time basis, I still don't see the need for paying the money they do to Whisper. The name of the game is winning and making the playoffs and yes I know we can't be blaming a fitness coach for not getting the results and making the post season, I think MLSE are wasting good money on this guy.

Remember, you're talking about MLSE here - they have so much money, revenue, and capital that they probably don't even notice his salary come off the books...

Coaches, trainers, staff don't count against the cap - with that in mind MLSE should spare no expense getting the best people in these positions for TFC...

Carts...

[Carts]

Anyone who claims that yesterday was a fitness issue needs to be punched in the balls.

Yesterday (and all season) is all about Cummins, and about the man who put him there.

Agreed...

And its not just who he put out - but the system he switched to late in the game...

We CAN'T defend a lead - we all know this...

We NEEDED to win that game - we all know this...

With a 1-nil lead, in a must win game, with a team that CAN'T HOLD A LEAD, why fall back into the same old system that HASN'T WORKED ALL SEASON...???

That is baffling, and embarassing...

Carts...

[Dirk Diggler]

Anyone who claims that yesterday was a fitness issue needs to be punched in the balls.

Yesterday (and all season) is all about Cummins, and about the man who put him there.

No one is denying Cummins and Mo are the problem ... unfortunately we don't live in a world of absolutes where the problem lies entirely with one party or the other. But whatever ... feel free to touch people's balls for their opinion.

[Rudi]

No one is denying Cummins and Mo are the problem ... unfortunately we don't live in a world of absolutes where the problem lies entirely with one party or the other. But whatever ... feel free to touch people's balls for their opinion.
The only person who looked tired to my untrained eye yesterday was O'Brian White.

This crackpot theory about the final 15 being somehow the fault of Winsper is ridiculous enough for me to have made my over the top statement.

Why did we not use all three subs in the last few minutes, if only to waste time? Why the hell was an offensive player (Vitti) brought in for Barrett at minute 81 instead of a defensive-minded player like Sanyang who who have been all over the park chasing guys down and putting the fear of God into any SJ player who dared enter the offensive third?

Why the fuck did the entire team go into bunker mode after Nana's goal in the third fucking minute of the second half?

None of this is Winsper's fault.

Winsper has kept our team healthier than likely the entire rest of the league. How many injuries has TFC had versus the rest of MLS? Freak injuries like Robbo's broken cheekbone or non-fitness injuries like Serioux's neck don't count.

No matter how well Winsper gets the guys in shape, there is a limit to what the human body can do, and having our team chase the ball around for 40 minute stretches is going to test that limit every single time.

[CoachGT]

The only person who looked tired to my untrained eye yesterday was O'Brian White.

This crackpot theory about the final 15 being somehow the fault of Winsper is ridiculous enough for me to have made my over the top statement.

Why did we not use all three subs in the last few minutes, if only to waste time? Why the hell was an offensive player (Vitti) brought in for Barrett at minute 81 instead of a defensive-minded player like Sanyang who who have been all over the park chasing guys down and putting the fear of God into any SJ player who dared enter the offensive third?

Why the fuck did the entire team go into bunker mode after Nana's goal in the third fucking minute of the second half?

None of this is Winsper's fault.

Winsper has kept our team healthier than likely the entire rest of the league. How many injuries has TFC had versus the rest of MLS? Freak injuries like Robbo's broken cheekbone or non-fitness injuries like Serioux's neck don't count.

No matter how well Winsper gets the guys in shape, there is a limit to what the human body can do, and having our team chase the ball around for 40 minute stretches is going to test that limit every single time.

QFT!!!

Winsper has done wonders for some players and I believe that Winsper is the reason that we haven't seen as many knee, leg and lower back injuries over the turf.

Training for 90-120 minutes in a practice isn't like playing with the intensity of a game, especially a game with as much meaning and emotion as the game yesterday.

I've said previously and still believe that it is a mental or focus issue more than a fitness issue. Earlier in the season you could see a change in the focus of the players in some games as things got to the 75-80 minute marks. If you watch, you see a (less pronouced) but still visible change in the players between 35 and 45 minutes.

Lately, I think the focus thing has changed a bit. Now it is the mental block over trying to stop another goal. We've scored, now let's defend. Wrong approach in my opinion, and from the sounds of the post game presser, Chris is beside himself over that philosophy too. It is clear that is not what he wants! You need to continue pressure. Maybe moving another player up front changes your opponent's philosophy (a tactic used by Cruyff from time to time - makes your opponent pull another guy back and relieves pressure in your own end). We need to keep pressing for the next goal, not sitting back.

But that seems more an issue in the players' heads than fitness.

[bignickel]

Anyone who claims that yesterday was a fitness issue needs to be punched in the balls.

Yesterday (and all season) is all about Cummins, and about the man who put him there.

nobody claimed yesterday was all about fitness, it's just one of the contributing factors.
although i will make the claim if you feel the need to make contact with my genitalia, i aim to please!

[Rudi]

nobody claimed yesterday was all about fitness, it's just one of the contributing factors.
No it's not.


although i will make the claim if you feel the need to make contact with my genitalia, i aim to please!
Whatever floats your boat.