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View Full Version : Give MoJo some credit where credit is due...



ManUtd4ever
09-17-2009, 09:43 AM
Amidst all the due and undue criticism he has recieved the last 3 years, MoJo certainly cannot be faulted for a lack of effort in his bid to put together a winning club on the pitch this season. The inconsistency of the club this year is surprising given the talent he has assembled. Whether TFC sneaks into the playoffs or not, I for one think MoJo has done an admirable job securing draft picks and players of quality in laying the foundation for the future. Stefan Frei, Sam Cronin, and O'Brian White have already shown flashes of stardom at this level. In addition, homegrown talent such as Adrian Serioux, and to a greater extent, DeRo, Ali Gerba, and JDG are players that most supporters advocated signing in these forums for quite some time. I am still optimistic about the playoffs this year but even if TFC falls short, Kudos to MoJo and I will look forward with great enthusiasm to greater results next season on the (freshly laid grass) pitch!

:scarf:

Toronto_Bhoy
09-17-2009, 09:51 AM
…and with all of the above, some of which I agree with, TFC continues to underachieve…this organization flatters to deceive.

Shakes McQueen
09-17-2009, 09:54 AM
I think there are some very justified criticisms of Mo - our continuing lack of depth on defense, for one.

I think Mo has done a good job of signing/drafting players, particularly in the last year - DeRo, JDG, Cronin, Frei, OBW, Gomez, Gerba, Sanyang. I also think the coaching, and not so much the players, have to do with our lack of sucess.

But what some folks seem to forget, is that bad coaching, to an extent, is also on Mo's head. He hires the coach.

I think Mo's solid ability to play the MLS rules and regulations, and some of his really good signings, have earned him one more shot at hiring a head coach who can get the job done, and one more chance to finally solidify our defense.

But if he doesn't, or he keeps Cummins, and we start off looking as lethargic and schizophrenic as every other year, then I think a change needs to be made early next season. The "five year plan" is nonsense - we aren't going to have players like DeRo and JDG forever.

- Scott

ManUtd4ever
09-17-2009, 09:59 AM
I think there are some very justified criticisms of Mo - our continuing lack of depth on defense, for one.

I think Mo has done a good job of signing/drafting players, particularly in the last year - DeRo, JDG, Cronin, Frei, OBW, Gomez, Gerba, Sanyang. I also think the coaching, and not so much the players, have to do with our lack of sucess.

But what some folks seem to forget, is that bad coaching, to an extent, is also on Mo's head. He hires the coach.

I think Mo's solid ability to play the MLS rules and regulations, and some of his really good signings, have earned him one more shot at hiring a head coach who can get the job done, and one more chance to finally solidify our defense.

But if he doesn't, or he keeps Cummins, and we start off looking as lethargic and pschizophrenic as every other year, then I think a change needs to be made early next season. The "five year plan" is nonsense - we aren't going to have players like DeRo and JDG forever.

- Scott

Agreed, but Carver's abrupt departure wasn't anticipated so I don't blame MoJo entirely for the questionable coaching tactics of Cummins. The options for a replacement were limited at the time given the circumstances...

Shway
09-17-2009, 10:07 AM
I 100% agree with the thread opener.

You see I a man who gives Mojo the credit, however i realised what it actually happens.

Last year, what was are problem, and what we complained about, and was evidently shown: L A C K O F S C O R I N G

And then we draft, OBW, bring in Vitti & Dero, and later on Gerba. While keeping are options from last year. I dont care what any one says, to pull those signings off, is absolute massive.

Just look at the positive side every signing just keeps getting better, and better

IF we keep all these players for next year....and add additions to the back line
this team WILL BRING HOME THE MLS CUP!

(signed at September 17,2009 11:08am)

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
09-17-2009, 10:10 AM
been a backer of MO's since day one!!........ONly down fall i have with him...is his lack of getting a coach who can lead this team! A team that he has built very nicely!! .....Im sure a coach will be next on his agenda!

RedRum
09-17-2009, 12:20 PM
been a backer of MO's since day one!!........ONly down fall i have with him...is his lack of getting a coach who can lead this team! A team that he has built very nicely!! .....Im sure a coach will be next on his agenda!

Mo will only hire someone who will be his lackey. Surely the word is out by now that you can not be your own man under Mo Johnston. We'll get another clown who get's out-coached on a game by game basis.

Accept that we will never win shit with Mo in charge.

mighty_torontofc_2008
09-17-2009, 12:29 PM
Mo will only hire someone who will be his lackey. Surely the word is out by now that you can not be your own man under Mo Johnston. We'll get another clown who get's out-coached on a game by game basis.

Accept that we will never win shit with Mo in charge.


we won the Canadian Championship!! And that was the focus of the club from day 1 this season, that and playoffs, which is still possible. CC should still be the manager next season he has done a decent job with
a average talent base.

Shakes McQueen
09-17-2009, 12:42 PM
Mo will only hire someone who will be his lackey. Surely the word is out by now that you can not be your own man under Mo Johnston. We'll get another clown who get's out-coached on a game by game basis.

Accept that we will never win shit with Mo in charge.

Explain in detail how Carver and/or Cummins weren't "their own men" under Mo Johnston - like, what he specifically did to restrict their autonomy as coaches, that doesn't exist anywhere else in a typical GM-Coach relationship.


we won the Canadian Championship!! And that was the focus of the club from day 1 this season, that and playoffs, which is still possible. CC should still be the manager next season he has done a decent job with
a average talent base.

We won the NCC, because Dwayne De Rosario dragged us across the finish line with a hat-trick. We went in to that game, with about a 5% chance of realistically winning - if Cummins' coaching was the reason for it, we wouldn't have needed a four goal victory to win in the first place.

- Scott

James17930
09-17-2009, 09:22 PM
I think you do have to give Mo credit for having the foresight to acquire so much allocation money to help out with salaries. That definitely seems to be a very smart way of dealing with the salary cap.

Oldtimer
09-18-2009, 07:17 AM
I think you do have to give Mo credit for having the foresight to acquire so much allocation money to help out with salaries. That definitely seems to be a very smart way of dealing with the salary cap.

Especially if (due to the new CBA) the cap goes up so he doesn't have to cut anyone next year. His cap-management skills are very good (as is his drafting, which is superb).

I don't give Mo a free pass on JC leaving, though. He needs to be able to supply what is a stacked team with quality coaching, that can handle the pressure.

rocker
09-18-2009, 11:52 AM
Especially if (due to the new CBA) the cap goes up so he doesn't have to cut anyone next year. His cap-management skills are very good (as is his drafting, which is superb).

I don't give Mo a free pass on JC leaving, though. He needs to be able to supply what is a stacked team with quality coaching, that can handle the pressure.

that's a good point -- I was thinking this the other day too, that with allocation, he was able to push the limits of what he spent on players (I doubt anyone could say most of the players aren't getting paid enough), and the pressure should be released next year if the cap increases.

Mo's an expert at the MLS system, drafting, trading, allocation etc.
He's a good judge of talent from college, and I think he's good at not getting duped into offering too much money to players who are demanding a lot more than he should offer (see: Kiki Musampa). But that doesn't mean he's cheap. In a sense, he's overpaid to get some players, but in the end he managed the cap well enough that overpaying didn't prevent the signing of great players like De Guzman.

As you say, his problem seems to be coaching. Although he recognized the value of it, when he has Bob Gansler in season 1. But to me Carver and Cummins did not/have not shown they come even close to being the coach that Bob Gansler was (that is, based on the respect Gansler has from American soccer people, hard to say what Gansler did for the team in season 1).

AL-MO
09-18-2009, 12:04 PM
LOL isn't there already a thread about giving credit to Mo?

:p

Shakes McQueen
09-18-2009, 12:06 PM
I don't blame Mo for giving the reins to Cummins, because Carver's departure was unexpected, and I think most of us agreed that Cummins deserved an interim shot - especially when it appeared our good early results were his doing. And you can't do a reasonably thorough search for a new coach, when the season has already started like that.

I do, however, "blame" Mo for Carver. I didn't think Carver was an awful coach, and indeed I quite liked some aspects of his coaching style. But he clearly couldn't do enough with the decent roster he had.

I think Mo deserves another shot at doing a proper search for a first-class coach - and if he delivers us another tactical dud, then it's time he take direct responsibility for it. I don't think it's reasonable to fire a GM, any time they make a dud signing - you can't strike gold 100% of the time, and Mo has a pretty good track record with signing players. Especially in the past year.

- Scott

Oldtimer
09-18-2009, 12:39 PM
LOL isn't there already a thread about giving credit to Mo?

:p

That one got hijacked by Mo-haters. :facepalm:

AL-MO
09-18-2009, 12:40 PM
That one got hijacked by Mo-haters. :facepalm:

As will this one.

:reddevil:

Lucky Strike
09-18-2009, 12:56 PM
I don't blame Mo for giving the reins to Cummins, because Carver's departure was unexpected, and I think most of us agreed that Cummins deserved an interim shot - especially when it appeared our good early results were his doing. And you can't do a reasonably thorough search for a new coach, when the season has already started like that.

I do, however, "blame" Mo for Carver. I didn't think Carver was an awful coach, and indeed I quite liked some aspects of his coaching style. But he clearly couldn't do enough with the decent roster he had.

I think Mo deserves another shot at doing a proper search for a first-class coach - and if he delivers us another tactical dud, then it's time he take direct responsibility for it. I don't think it's reasonable to fire a GM, any time they make a dud signing - you can't strike gold 100% of the time, and Mo has a pretty good track record with signing players. Especially in the past year.

- Scott

This is a pretty sound argument. +1

Bombonera
09-19-2009, 08:07 PM
I agree with shakes re:carver, but not all the way. Carver made some decisisons last year that were unbelieevably bad. Sitting our core players becasue we had escaped montreal with a rainy day victory thereby compromising our ability to win..and with a bunch of head case players...was ridiculous. Carver should not have made it back to the bech for this season. Mo is to balme for the Carver fiasco. Period.

I think we also nee to recognize how many players we have traded who have had unbelievably successful roles elsewhere. WHy? Ous coaching? if so, then again, let's go at mo.

HOWEVER, we have now (a it too late for this season..) signed a decent DP, are going to have a grass next year (huge inmplications re:our potential roster... SO, yes, he gets one last go, but if we aren't sitting with some serious points midway through the season, then he is toast, and we should all help in that regard.

Stryker
09-20-2009, 02:56 AM
Good job Mo.
You still have alot work to do for next season though:

At 315,000 Carl Robinson is vastly overpaid. We have JDG now, we need to let him go.

Jim Brennen is awesome. To interview. Jim Brennen is not awesome at defence.
For 193,000 Im confident we could find better.

Pablo Vitti... fun to watch the kid play with the ball but at 300,000 ummm yeah.. see ya.

Chad Barrett. Drop it like its hot. Oh snap, we just saved another 200,000.

Guevara is such an amazing player, unfortunately next season he'll be another year older, and will have far more of his "doesn't show up days" and far less of his amazing days. Besides I think DeRo would like his perferred postion.
Let him ride off into the sunset and take his 323,000 dollar salary with him.

Well would you look at that, we now have over 1.3 million to shop for players with and got rid of some of our weakest links to boot.

CretanBull
09-20-2009, 04:41 AM
Mo has put together a team of CMs. Robinson, Cronin, Sanyang, JDG, DeRo, Guevara. In any given day, only 2 of them can play in their natural position leaving 2 (or 3 depending on formation) playing out of position. Mo brought in Vitti as a striker and he can't score. Mo brought in Barrett as a striker and he can't score. Mo hasn't fixed a backline that's been a problem for 3 years.

The fact that the team looks out of sync shouldn't surprise anyone. What is surprising is that people are placing the blame on Cummins. He's forced to pick a starting XI from a paper thin collection of defenders, a midfield where half the players are going to be playing out of position and strikers who can't score. Despite the individual talent on the team, its clear that the talent wasn't brought together with the idea of it forming a team...and that responsibility lies at Mo's feet.

Forgive yet another hockey analogy, but if a GM put together a 20 man roster that had 13 left wingers, 4 defensemen and 3 goalies would anyone blame the coach for not being able to win games with such an unbalanced team?

Cummins has made mistakes and he's been out-coached by some MLS coaching vetrans but there's always going to be a learning curve with any new coach. Having admitted that, its imposible to judge Cummins fairly without looking at what he's been given to work with - not in terms of individual talent (6 Pavel Bure's doesn't make 2 good lines), but in how that individual talent can make up a team...and in that department, he's be short changed.

If we don't make the play-offs, Cummins will be fired and maybe we'll benefit from a new coach...but I don't think Jose Mourinho can make a proper full-back out of Brennan, can turn half of our CMs into wingers or teach Vitti to hit the net.

ManUtd4ever
09-21-2009, 08:33 AM
Mo has put together a team of CMs. Robinson, Cronin, Sanyang, JDG, DeRo, Guevara. In any given day, only 2 of them can play in their natural position leaving 2 (or 3 depending on formation) playing out of position. Mo brought in Vitti as a striker and he can't score. Mo brought in Barrett as a striker and he can't score. Mo hasn't fixed a backline that's been a problem for 3 years.

The fact that the team looks out of sync shouldn't surprise anyone. What is surprising is that people are placing the blame on Cummins. He's forced to pick a starting XI from a paper thin collection of defenders, a midfield where half the players are going to be playing out of position and strikers who can't score. Despite the individual talent on the team, its clear that the talent wasn't brought together with the idea of it forming a team...and that responsibility lies at Mo's feet.

Forgive yet another hockey analogy, but if a GM put together a 20 man roster that had 13 left wingers, 4 defensemen and 3 goalies would anyone blame the coach for not being able to win games with such an unbalanced team?

Cummins has made mistakes and he's been out-coached by some MLS coaching vetrans but there's always going to be a learning curve with any new coach. Having admitted that, its imposible to judge Cummins fairly without looking at what he's been given to work with - not in terms of individual talent (6 Pavel Bure's doesn't make 2 good lines), but in how that individual talent can make up a team...and in that department, he's be short changed.

If we don't make the play-offs, Cummins will be fired and maybe we'll benefit from a new coach...but I don't think Jose Mourinho can make a proper full-back out of Brennan, can turn half of our CMs into wingers or teach Vitti to hit the net.

Agreed, but at least there is a solid foundation in place to build around compared to last season. I would like to think that Mo will address the need for a pure striker and a solid defender in the offseason once he creates cap space by releasing expensive spare parts such as Barrett, Vitti, etc...

Toronto_Bhoy
09-21-2009, 10:47 AM
Both CB and MU4E have positioned this well…we have been crying (team and supporters) for a proper CB to lock the door and striker to fill the net and what does Mo get us… another midfielder…albeit…JDG is top drawer…no question.

But this outfit is screaming for two position players. One to score goals and one to keep them out…the personnel Mo has provided aren't very good at either…who's responsible for that?

jloome
09-21-2009, 11:23 AM
I just want whatever the Mo fans are smoking. We have no wingers, we have no commanding centre back, and by evidence so far, our best striker is crocked until next season because he's recuperating from a knee injury.

In other words, we need two wingers, a centre back and a striker who can create goals: all the same things we needed when we started the season. Saying he "addressed" those issues is like commending the post office when they send the mail to the wrong house. Nick Garcia solved nothing, Gerba's a poacher who can't play up top alone and we released two wingers without signing any.

Yeah, the man's a genius.

jloome
09-21-2009, 11:25 AM
Mo has put together a team of CMs. Robinson, Cronin, Sanyang, JDG, DeRo, Guevara. In any given day, only 2 of them can play in their natural position leaving 2 (or 3 depending on formation) playing out of position. Mo brought in Vitti as a striker and he can't score. Mo brought in Barrett as a striker and he can't score. Mo hasn't fixed a backline that's been a problem for 3 years.

The fact that the team looks out of sync shouldn't surprise anyone. What is surprising is that people are placing the blame on Cummins. He's forced to pick a starting XI from a paper thin collection of defenders, a midfield where half the players are going to be playing out of position and strikers who can't score. Despite the individual talent on the team, its clear that the talent wasn't brought together with the idea of it forming a team...and that responsibility lies at Mo's feet.

Forgive yet another hockey analogy, but if a GM put together a 20 man roster that had 13 left wingers, 4 defensemen and 3 goalies would anyone blame the coach for not being able to win games with such an unbalanced team?

Cummins has made mistakes and he's been out-coached by some MLS coaching vetrans but there's always going to be a learning curve with any new coach. Having admitted that, its imposible to judge Cummins fairly without looking at what he's been given to work with - not in terms of individual talent (6 Pavel Bure's doesn't make 2 good lines), but in how that individual talent can make up a team...and in that department, he's be short changed.

If we don't make the play-offs, Cummins will be fired and maybe we'll benefit from a new coach...but I don't think Jose Mourinho can make a proper full-back out of Brennan, can turn half of our CMs into wingers or teach Vitti to hit the net.


100% score on this one.

Davenport
09-21-2009, 07:51 PM
we won the Canadian Championship!! And that was the focus of the club from day 1 this season, that and playoffs, which is still possible. CC should still be the manager next season he has done a decent job with
a average talent base.
1/ The Canadian Championship ??!! Against second rate opposition...and in Montreal's case third rate opposition when TFC played them in the last game. A great testament to how far this club has come.
Remember what happened next ? Yes, that was against second rate opposition as well.
2/ Playoffs ??!! Don't make me laugh.
3/ Cummins - a decent job ??!! He's done well organising the defence. TFC are very diffucult to beat away from home.

Davenport
09-21-2009, 07:55 PM
Let's be honest...the fault lies at Johnston's feet.
While I do agree Cummins is out of his depth, he's been given a strange squad to work with.
No defenders or strikers a team does NOT make.

Cambridge_Red
09-21-2009, 08:01 PM
This could be Epic :D

KrazyKanadian
09-22-2009, 09:26 AM
In MoJo We Trust!

SoccMan
09-22-2009, 10:25 AM
Mo has to go, until that happens we will be in the same boat at this time of the year every season. He makes an excellent scout but a lousy general manager. Major mistakes this season, letting good players go at the back without getting any good replacements, putting a coach in charge who had never coached at the senior pro level. These are his two major mistakes this season .

TFC07
09-22-2009, 10:30 AM
Mo has to go, until that happens we will be in the same boat at this time of the year every season. He makes an excellent scout but a lousy general manager. Major mistakes this season, letting good players go at the back without getting any good replacements, putting a coach in charge who had never coached at the senior pro level. These are his two major mistakes this season .

Sadly there are rumours that ML$E has already signed Mo for couple more years. :facepalm:

Oldtimer
09-22-2009, 11:15 AM
Love how the Mo-haters take over every positive thread.:facepalm:

CretanBull
09-22-2009, 02:04 PM
Love how the Mo-haters take over every positive thread.:facepalm:

I'm not a "Mo-hater" at all and I've defended him more than most....when everyone was shitting on him I repeatedly pointed out what a great job he did in Season 2 of collecting allocation money & draft picks and it was because of the moves that he made that we were in a uniquely strong position heading into Season 3. But its an objective fact that for all of his hard & smart work to put us in good position, that he's failed to bring in the right players. His strategy seems to be "I'm going to bring in a bunch of good players without any regard for whether or not they're needed and its up to the coach to figure out a way to make it all work." That's not a strategy.

We have the second highest payroll in the league (if it weren't for Beckham, we'd have the highest), we were about $1 million over the cap before signing JDG. We have the most number of players in the league earning $300k or more and we're struggling to make the play-offs.

To me that suggests we either have the worst coach in the history of sports (in which case, why hasn't the GM dealt with that?) or we've got a roster of players who are either massively over-paid (GMs fault) or a group of players who were assembled with no thought to the team that they'd form (GMs fault).

I think that's an honest evaluation and not "hating" on anyone...if there's another way to look at the same facts I'd like to hear it.

Shakes McQueen
09-22-2009, 02:31 PM
I think Mo has failed to bring in some needed players, but I think a lot of it is our current talent being woefully misused.

I fault Mo for us still not having any full-back depth - beyond Wynne and Brennan, we have Attakora and Fellinga available, and that's it. And Attakora is being conditioned to be a center-half, more than a full-back. This MUST improve for next season - no more waffling on potential signings, only to see the deal fall apart at the last minute (supposedly).

I actually think we do have one of the worst coaches in the league, but like I've said before - I don't necessarily "blame" Mo for that. Carver's sudden departure left TFC in a bad spot, and after the few positive early results we got due to Cummins' formation suggestions (i.e. Chivas at home), I think most people here agreed that he deserved a shot at the job until the end of the season.

Since then, he inadequacies have shone through big time, and Mo needs to replace him. If Mo doesn't - or if he gets a half-baked replacement, and we repeat this cycle at the beginning of next season, then Mo needs to go.

I think you can also fault Mo for not bringing in someone who can competently play left-wing. Barrett is getting better, but is far from an ideal solution in the here and now.

I think we actually have a right-winger in DeRo - just not the "crossing balls in" type. DeRo functions as more of a Lionel Messi along the right - primarily dashing towards the box, and either taking a shot or slotting it to someone else for the finish. Messi rarely actually crosses a ball in.

Striker is a bit stickier to break down, because Mo has brought in a ton of players to try and solve the problem, and none of them has caught fire yet. OBW looks like he may be a good solution in the future. I also think guys like Gerba are being serially misused by Cummins. How many times is he going to stick him on an island up front, when everyone here knows he functions best with a second striker?

Vitti as striker? It was a good shot, but a failure.
Barrett as striker? Brings lots of positives, except for the one skill that matters most: shooting.

I think Vitti was a good gamble by Mo, with the potential for a huge, huge upside. Many of us thought so. It just hasn't worked out at all.

As for our midfield - I think next season we will have the strongest midfield in the league by a large margin. Mo deserves some credit for that. I can't wait to see DeRo, Guevara, and JDG after some time together. Plus, it's a great balance of attacking prowess, with defensive capability.

Mo has made mistakes - some of them big ones. But if he manages to get the full-back depth we need, perhaps another central midfielder, a new coach with the bonafides to get the job done, and Gerba or OBQ emerge as a threat up front, I think he deserves another kick at the can.

But like I said - if we start off looking "meh" next season, like those before it, I support removing him.

- Scott

CretanBull
09-22-2009, 02:46 PM
^ I think Attakora is better suited as a CB. De Ro can play RW, but I think that it's a waste of his talents to put him on the wing because he can do so much more.

Shakes McQueen
09-22-2009, 03:37 PM
^ I think Attakora is better suited as a CB. De Ro can play RW, but I think that it's a waste of his talents to put him on the wing because he can do so much more.

I agree. Like I said - Messi is technically considered a winger, but he routinely cuts inside to the middle of the pitch, in order to orchestrate combination passing with the midfielders and forwards. I think a role like that suits DeRo perfectly.

- Scott