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View Full Version : Hypothetically - what if Carver was still here?



Kevvv
09-13-2009, 09:58 PM
Just suppose John Carver had continued on as coach. How would think the team would have performed to this point?

London
09-13-2009, 09:58 PM
you now have completed the trifecta of doom!!!!!!!!

Kevvv
09-13-2009, 09:59 PM
shhh

BC101
09-13-2009, 10:03 PM
World cup Contenders...

Ladies Love Julius James
09-13-2009, 10:05 PM
About the same I'd suspect. It's refreshing that we don't have to hear ref complaints every press conference but I think the team is performing the same for both managers.

Sonny Cheeba
09-13-2009, 10:06 PM
beer would be more expensive.

Kevvv
09-13-2009, 10:09 PM
beer would be more expensive.

we have a winner

Carts
09-13-2009, 10:20 PM
World Peace & the end of world hunger...

Carts...

Brooker
09-13-2009, 10:22 PM
we'd have the same record but a coach who didn't have the personality of a wet dishcloth.

Kevvv
09-13-2009, 10:41 PM
no, an angry one

Cashcleaner
09-13-2009, 11:03 PM
You know what? I was a big fan of Carver and I'm still skeptical over the story that prompted his departure. At the end of the day though, Cummins is the man in charge and any other discussion regarding Carver is moot. Its really hard to say where we;d be in the standing if Carver was still coaching. I'm inclined to believe we'd be in pretty much the same shape.I think most importantly is the fact that even though we have an uphill battle to get into the playoffs, recent news has been encouraging with regards to the general direction of the club.

SilverSamurai
09-13-2009, 11:24 PM
Who knows. But Dichio would probably have played more...
On the other hand, he might've stuck with Barrett for longer...

s2cazz
09-14-2009, 01:05 AM
theres no hiding it...I'm a carver fan and I miss him...

MFG1
09-14-2009, 04:59 AM
copious amounts of longball !!

poppamidnight
09-14-2009, 07:43 AM
I've noticed their lineup selections are about on par....

Furthermore BOTH have one of the stupidest philosophies I've ever seen:

Lineup/tactics not working?
= "I KNOW, I JUST WON'T USE ANY OF MY SUBS!!!"

CoachGT
09-14-2009, 08:11 AM
You know what? I was a big fan of Carver and I'm still skeptical over the story that prompted his departure. At the end of the day though, Cummins is the man in charge and any other discussion regarding Carver is moot. Its really hard to say where we;d be in the standing if Carver was still coaching. I'm inclined to believe we'd be in pretty much the same shape.I think most importantly is the fact that even though we have an uphill battle to get into the playoffs, recent news has been encouraging with regards to the general direction of the club.

Agreed. What ifs really don't mean squat. I think we'd be in the same shape. One thing that is curious, though, is that we haven't lost with Toledo as a ref since Carver left. Coincidence? A bit too much for my skeptical mind.

Shaughno
09-14-2009, 08:12 AM
Hypothetically I don't give a rats ass about hypothetical situations. :D

Detroit_TFC
09-14-2009, 09:11 AM
Our roster would look a lot different.

ManUtd4ever
09-14-2009, 09:16 AM
The chances are that TFC's current position in the standings would be similar if Carver had remained head coach to this point. However, I think Cummins is less of a distraction to the club without the media circus that used to follow Carver around on a regular basis because of his post game tirades and off field antics. No one can doubt Chris Cummins' passion for his job after witnessing the emotion he displayed from the sidelines during the miracle in Montreal. As for his tactical approach, it has been questionable at times but will definitely improve over time...

Shaughno
09-14-2009, 09:18 AM
People are STILL taking this seriously? :lol: WHO CARES?!?! The thread is a joke, but apparently....

http://img.amazon.ca/images/I/51MQMTJCZBL._SL500_AA240_.jpg

jabbronies
09-14-2009, 10:34 AM
I think the media scrums and post game interviews would be alot more entertaining.

No offence to CC, but his answers sound kinda redundant.

TFC07
09-14-2009, 10:37 AM
Carver and CC are both shit. The only difference is that Carver has an attitude problem. I just hope we can get a new coach for next season regardless if we make it to the playoffs or not.

London
09-14-2009, 10:38 AM
Carver and CC are both shit. The only difference is that Carver has an attitude problem. I just hope we can get a new coach for next season regardless if we make it to the playoffs or not.


it was started as a joke but people keep posting:(

MartinUtd
09-14-2009, 11:11 AM
Who knows. But Dichio would probably have played more...
On the other hand, he might've stuck with Barrett for longer...

How is that even possible?

scooter
09-14-2009, 12:10 PM
Agreed. What ifs really don't mean squat. I think we'd be in the same shape. One thing that is curious, though, is that we haven't lost with Toledo as a ref since Carver left. Coincidence? A bit too much for my skeptical mind.

2 glaringly poor calls

first carding nana for a bullshite infraction that the rapids player clearly made more of than it was--i rewatched the game yesterday ( like to watch the reds win)

second the barrett card---the shirt pulling and pushing by the rapids player was a bit much and didnt get called
barrett deserved the card for desent but absolute nonsense that no card was given to colorado

so still not liking this ref although guevara sure was kissing his as*

sorry a bit off topic

i said about the same -- i dont beleive manager right now is the difference its the players and i like cummins as coach
i have said before give him the job full time to give him more authority both on and off the pitch
the team is still growing and as much as we would all like it to happen this is not instant results its long term building

mighty_torontofc_2008
09-14-2009, 12:13 PM
Carver and CC are both shit. The only difference is that Carver has an attitude problem. I just hope we can get a new coach for next season regardless if we make it to the playoffs or not.


Carver never had an attitutde problem, and should still be the manager to day..i bet we would have at least 6 more points with him, CC is now the guy and deserves another year..we dont need a manager a year that will get us no where./

trane
09-14-2009, 12:41 PM
^ Why would we have 6 more points under Carver? What makes you say this?

JonO
09-14-2009, 12:54 PM
^ Why would we have 6 more points under Carver? What makes you say this?
Because we would have won two more games. Do I have to spell everything out for you? :rolleyes: :D

Pachuco
09-14-2009, 12:58 PM
I can guarantee you we would've lost against Colorado at home if Carver was here. Guevara would've been benched because he went away to play an international game and Wynne would've been playing as a striker.

Chevy
09-14-2009, 01:37 PM
Don't forget Nana wouldn't have had a sniff under Carver.

Shaughno
09-14-2009, 02:47 PM
Don't forget, we would have won the world cup under Carver. Ronaldo would have signed with TFC instead of Madrid and that would have prompted Benzema, Tevez and Ribery to all come and play for TFC. Oh and Zizou would have come out of retirement as a DP.

trane
09-14-2009, 03:14 PM
^ Thank you Shags, and Jon O.

mighty_torontofc_2008
09-14-2009, 04:32 PM
^ Why would we have 6 more points under Carver? What makes you say this?


the team was playing better on the road under Carver then CC and im sure with JC we would have got 3 points in Seattle and Colorado..but we will never know for sure...wnat to see which TFC team shows up in LA the
team we saw saturday or the team we saw get beaten bad in Coloarado and chivas>

Bobo
09-14-2009, 04:58 PM
About the same because after a certain point you just can't get any worse.

druid
09-14-2009, 08:57 PM
Carver... hmmmm... where to start?

-Bad tactics, lineups, inexplicable substitutions or a complete lack of subs.
-Not giving players a chance but giving Laurent Robert as much time as he wanted.
-Horrible man management with public use of both petty & bully tactics. Remember the dressing room re-assignments?
-Unable to deal with the strain of the job and losing it in front of the press on a regular basis.

Carver was rank. Can anyone guess which was his last game on the bench from this graph:

http://www.settingthetable.info/tfc.html

Edit: Let me rephrase the "Carver was rank" part. We've only had three coaches, not enough of a statistical sample to say that Carver was an anomaly. But I really, really, really hope that he was.

Shaughno
09-15-2009, 08:36 AM
PEOPLE

THIS THREAD IS A JOKE!!!!!

STOP TAKING IT SERIOUXLY!!!!

SERIOUXLY!! Give it up already.

Fort York Redcoat
09-15-2009, 09:25 AM
TFC would be doing happy dances because we'd have another scarf to wear.

ManUtd4ever
09-15-2009, 09:26 AM
Hypothetically, what if MoJo was still coach? :D

ArmenJBX
09-15-2009, 08:50 PM
Hypothetically, what if MoJo was still coach? :D

Look at the standings. Do you see the teams named Red Bull New York, FC Dallas, and San Jose Earthquakes?

One of them would be replaced with Toronto FC.

Now look at the points section.

Notice how RBNY has 16 points in 25 games?

We would have 6.

Lucky Strike
09-17-2009, 08:39 AM
If Carver were still here, Chad Barrett, Pablo Vitti and Marco Velez would all have tire tracks on their faces from being thrown under the bus like Cunningham was. And our heads would be spinning from all the stepovers Johann Smith would do.

Cashcleaner
05-30-2011, 11:36 AM
I miss John Carver.

And yes, I resurrected this 2-year old thread just to say that.

Heathen
05-30-2011, 11:38 AM
what's sad is the number of posters on this thread who no longer frequent these boards

Cashcleaner
05-30-2011, 11:40 AM
^ Agreed, though looking at some responses you sorta see why that might be. :D

ExiledRed
05-30-2011, 12:52 PM
He needed more time than he had, but less than winter is being given...

Redcoe15
05-30-2011, 12:52 PM
what's sad is the number of posters on this thread who no longer frequent these boards
Like mighty_torontofc_2008? He's not missed at all. :D

Carts
05-30-2011, 12:54 PM
Hypothetically - what if Carver was still here?

Media conferences would be entertaining again... :)

ExiledRed
05-30-2011, 12:55 PM
Look at the standings. Do you see the teams named Red Bull New York, FC Dallas, and San Jose Earthquakes?

One of them would be replaced with Toronto FC.

Now look at the points section.

Notice how RBNY has 16 points in 25 games?

We would have 6.

I call bullshit

Any one of our prior coaches would have achieved more by now, and every one did better than Winter has. Not one of them got two seasons.

Winter is getting to remain, because of what happened to prior coaches, and not because of common sense.

FreekAce
05-30-2011, 01:10 PM
if carver would have still been here, he'd have suffered several aneurysms.

fetajr
05-30-2011, 01:20 PM
fooooooooook carver

s2cazz
05-30-2011, 01:29 PM
I miss Carver. Like him or not you have to admit he has been our best to date.

And most entertaining.

Johnny Carver's All Red Army.
Things were better then, Spirit was it's best and games were the most fun. I miss it.

trane
05-30-2011, 03:01 PM
^ I do not think that we have had one good coach, they have all been one dimesional and less then spetacullar.

JonO
05-30-2011, 03:17 PM
I call bullshit

Any one of our prior coaches would have achieved more by now, and every one did better than Winter has. Not one of them got two seasons.

Winter is getting to remain, because of what happened to prior coaches, and not because of common sense.
The post you are replying to was pre-Preki, let alone Winter...

ExiledRed
05-30-2011, 05:05 PM
The post you are replying to was pre-Preki, let alone Winter...

yeah i figured that out late. But its still bullshit.

TFCRegina
05-30-2011, 05:32 PM
I call bullshit

Any one of our prior coaches would have achieved more by now, and every one did better than Winter has. Not one of them got two seasons.

Winter is getting to remain, because of what happened to prior coaches, and not because of common sense.

I long for Chris Cummins.

Carts
05-30-2011, 05:38 PM
I long for Chris Cummins.

That's what she said.

TFCRegina
05-30-2011, 05:40 PM
That's what she said.

Haha.

QSIM
05-30-2011, 09:14 PM
13 votes for a lot worse... jeez I don't even want to try to picture that!

ExiledRed
05-30-2011, 09:28 PM
Carver could really educate Winter on player coaching and man management, and Carver used to fucking play Chad Barrett ahead of Dichio.

CSO_BBTB
05-30-2011, 09:35 PM
He'd be in a padded cell and a straightjacket by now if he had attempted to stay.

ensco
05-30-2011, 09:37 PM
^Very true!

Carver is pretty much the only ex-TFC employee of any kind who has been released and ever found a similar job to the one he had before coming here, after leaving here.

None of Mo, Preki, Cummins, have a job.

It's a horror for the players too, not just the vets like Ricketts, even young guys like Sanyang, Gomez, Fuad.....they're nowhere.

This really is the end of the line. It shows.

TFCRegina
05-30-2011, 09:50 PM
13 votes for a lot worse... jeez I don't even want to try to picture that!

Most of the votes were cast during the Chris Cummins era. For the record, I voted "A Little Worse" back then.

rocktml
05-30-2011, 09:52 PM
Is there some kind of list of all the free agents for junes transfer window?

menefreghista
05-30-2011, 10:49 PM
^Very true!

Carver is pretty much the only ex-TFC employee of any kind who has been released and ever found a similar job to the one he had before coming here, after leaving here.

None of Mo, Preki, Cummins, have a job.

It's a horror for the players too, not just the vets like Ricketts, even young guys like Sanyang, Gomez, Fuad.....they're nowhere.

This really is the end of the line. It shows.

This is an interesting post. I've always found that a wide number of our former players seem to just fall off the face of the earth. I never considered the coaches in that.

Apparently Cummins has found work as the reserve coach for Reading, a team that recently promoted to the EPL.

Its still early, but it will be interesting to see where Dasovic lands. I don't think he has very good prospects though.

And take a look at Winter, he was out of work when we hired him. He had been released by Ajax in April of 2010. We hired him in January of 2011.

--------------

As for the players, a few weeks ago I came up with a theory that the reason we only have contract disputes with certain players is because they are the only guys on the team where TFC is not their last resort. The only real exception is Frei, but there is still time for that.

Most of our players are here because TFC is their last resort. And like you said, it shows.

Brooker
05-30-2011, 11:05 PM
JOHNNY CARVER'S!!!!!!!!

Shakes McQueen
05-31-2011, 12:31 AM
There should be a poll option saying "If if's and but's were candy and nuts, we'd all have a Merry Christmas".

- Scott

CSO_BBTB
05-31-2011, 03:48 AM
...It's a horror for the players too, not just the vets like Ricketts, even young guys like Sanyang, Gomez, Fuad.....they're nowhere.

This really is the end of the line. It shows.

Personally think people talk down MLS too much sometimes. I watched the Torquay vs Stevenage League Two play-off final this past weekend in addition to the TFC game and MLS is an obvious step up from that level in playing standards even allowing for the presence of players like Harden and Gargan. For relatively successful sides in a fully pro division some of the lack of skill displayed by the Torquay and Stevenage players was an eye opener to say the least. Beyond that there are examples of players that have flopped big time with TFC who have subsequently continued playing at a reasonably high level. Colin Samuel with St. Johnstone, Andy Welsh eventually finding his level with Yeovil, Carlos Ruiz bouncing back out of washed up hasbeen mode after finding some form again in Paraguay etc. So it's a mixed bag on that basically.

As for Preki and Mo it's worth bearing in mind that they may be financially better off waiting for the regular cheque from MLSE right now. Strongly suspect Preki will resurface in MLS again at some point given his services were in demand immediately post-Chivas and a lot of the spin south of the border was that he didn't get a fair chance to show what he could do in Toronto. Mo's best bet for future employment is probably either as a North American scout for a big British club or as a player agent given Scotland is probably still a no go area for him for personal safety reasons. Cummins has probably reached the end of the road but he was promoted well beyond what should have been his glass ceiling and his antics since then that prompted the talk of legal action were far from sensible in career terms.

ensco
05-31-2011, 06:54 AM
there are examples of players that have flopped big time with TFC who have subsequently continued playing at a reasonably high level. Colin Samuel with St. Johnstone, Andy Welsh eventually finding his level with Yeovil, Carlos Ruiz bouncing back out of washed up hasbeen mode after finding some form again in Paraguay etc. So it's a mixed bag on that basically.



Not sure Yeovil Town or St Johnstone are really at a "reasonably high level". There's one or two others - Pozniak (although he wasn't actually released). There's a bunch in USL too - Velez, Braz and Reda (for a while).

But there's many more who have disappeared beneath the waves.

Just to pick 2008 as an example, here's the list of guys that have essentially disappeared (it would look that much worse if I included Melo, Gaudet, Gala, but they're really in a different category), those that are sort of hanging on, and those that are still in MLS or equivalent:

Essentially Disappeared:
Fuad Ibrahim (Free Agent)
Johann Smith (Free Agent)
Rohan Ricketts (Free Agent)
Tyler Hemming (USL development league)
Brian Edwards (Swedish second division)
Jarrod Smith (Swedish second division)

Hanging On:
Tyler Rosenlund (USL)
Marco Velez (USL)

Still in MLS or similar:
Carlos Ruiz (MLS)

s2cazz
05-31-2011, 07:53 AM
JOHNNY CARVER'S!!!!!!!!

ALL RED ARMY!!!!!!!!

Oblio2
05-31-2011, 08:02 AM
If Carver were still here........


I would have actually bought one of those carver T-shirts that were on....just as he went

CoachGT
05-31-2011, 08:04 AM
For what it is worth, I hear that Carver is visiting and will be taking in the first Vancouver game at the end of June.

s2cazz
05-31-2011, 08:12 AM
For what it is worth, I hear that Carver is visiting and will be taking in the first Vancouver game at the end of June.

Does anyone have any contact info for the guy? I'd love to send him a thank you/appreciation email.

jabbronies
05-31-2011, 08:50 AM
For what it is worth, I hear that Carver is visiting and will be taking in the first Vancouver game at the end of June.

ya it'd be cool to meet up with him - would be even cooler if there was an RPB coaching session around the same time wink wink nudge nudge.

Detroit_TFC
05-31-2011, 09:13 AM
If Carver was still here, his doctors would ban him from being here so he wouldn't have 5 heart attacks.

Gazza
05-31-2011, 09:16 AM
I would've purchased a Geordie to English dictionary by now.

CoachGT
05-31-2011, 09:38 AM
ya it'd be cool to meet up with him - would be even cooler if there was an RPB coaching session around the same time wink wink nudge nudge.

Coaching sessions have gone by the wayside given general lack of interest.

Oblio2
05-31-2011, 11:45 AM
http://rlv.zcache.com/john_carver_versus_schelotto_tshirt-p23539402003449530585rsm_152.jpg

Carts
05-31-2011, 12:30 PM
ya it'd be cool to meet up with him.

He was awesome when he came by the tailgate - and that was after he had left the club...

Had some Guinness with us, brought his mates from across the pond over (who were just like him) and just chilled, chatted, and thanked us for our support...

If he's here - someone tip off what bar he'll be at, I'll buy him a few more pints... :drinking:

Carts...

ExiledRed
05-31-2011, 01:03 PM
Coaching sessions have gone by the wayside given general lack of interest.

for a moment there I thought you were talking about the TFC first team, and believed it.

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
05-31-2011, 01:11 PM
Best and most knowledgeable coach TFC have had!!!

end of!

Stryker
05-31-2011, 08:29 PM
Best and most knowledgeable coach TFC have had!!!

end of!
Pretty sure a knowledgeable coach knows who and when to make a substitution.

CSO_BBTB
06-01-2011, 01:28 AM
Best and most knowledgeable coach TFC have had!!!

end of!

So knowledgeable that he had absolutely no idea what to do when the weather got hot and humid, kept trying to play a high tempo British style 4-4-2 and started lashing out at anyone and everyone in embarrassing postgame press conferences when it didn't work. Even Chris Cummins was a slight improvement on that. Personally think Preki was the best we've had and by far the most qualified to get the job done in an MLS context but he wasn't given the time and the necessary level of control to finish his rebuild process.

Fort York Redcoat
06-01-2011, 07:08 AM
This is an interesting post. I've always found that a wide number of our former players seem to just fall off the face of the earth. I never considered the coaches in that.

Apparently Cummins has found work as the reserve coach for Reading, a team that recently promoted to the EPL.

Its still early, but it will be interesting to see where Dasovic lands. I don't think he has very good prospects though.

And take a look at Winter, he was out of work when we hired him. He had been released by Ajax in April of 2010. We hired him in January of 2011.

--------------

As for the players, a few weeks ago I came up with a theory that the reason we only have contract disputes with certain players is because they are the only guys on the team where TFC is not their last resort. The only real exception is Frei, but there is still time for that.

Most of our players are here because TFC is their last resort. And like you said, it shows.

I can't believe that it's TFC alone that has players that are last-stop. The contract disputes seem to have been with the Canadian players most of the time. There were some of those that I don't think had very good options outside this team. There are plenty of players every week that you can see start on other teams after they were released from TFC.

If JC was still here the scarf wouldn't be nailed to the wall.