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Big_mac004
09-12-2009, 07:03 PM
Just wondering if anyone knows when we will be billed for next seasons tickets or the prices for 2010

It is usually around this time but I have not heard anything yet.

Thanks

Nuvinho
09-12-2009, 07:04 PM
They will be out soon. I am waiting for it as well.

I heard from someone post on this board that the first payment is due by mid October.

tfc007
09-13-2009, 06:02 AM
Soon they will send out the renewals, but with a signing of a DP get ready for a significant increase,This is the way maple leaef sports operates. Dont be surprised if they go up at least 100-150 and if you guys dont like it, they dont care they have a huge waiting list,others will pay.

mlsintoronto
09-13-2009, 07:05 AM
They should go out on Tuesday I think. Supporters section will be $17 I believe (for renewing season seat holders).

Oldtimer
09-13-2009, 07:08 AM
Soon they will send out the renewals, but with a signing of a DP get ready for a significant increase,This is the way maple leaef sports and greed operate.Dont be surprised if they go up at least 100-150 and if you guys dont like it, they dont care they have a huge waiting list,others will pay.

Not a chance it will go up that much. MLSE is greedy, but not stupid.

Marco2K
09-13-2009, 07:18 AM
Soon they will send out the renewals, but with a signing of a DP get ready for a significant increase,This is the way maple leaef sports and greed operate.Dont be surprised if they go up at least 100-150 and if you guys dont like it, they dont care they have a huge waiting list,others will pay.
Who is this guy?

boban
09-13-2009, 08:13 AM
They should go out on Tuesday I think. Supporters section will be $17 I believe (for renewing season seat holders).
They were $14 this year if I am not mistaken.
Percentage wise that is a significant increase.

MrHawk
09-13-2009, 08:29 AM
The signing of a DP and the apparent grass coming to BMO, may cause for a fairly significant hike.

Keyword: may

SoccMan
09-13-2009, 08:41 AM
Sorry I have to keep posting this,however, MLSE better be careful on how much they increase ticket prices. I just get the feeling that interest has declined, mainly from the amount of empty seats I keep seeing at most games. I sit in 225 and yesterday I counted about over 30 empty seats around my immediate area, and it's been like this for most games this season. I hope I'm wrong and that the demand is still very high, but I'm starting to wonder, I guess we will find out very soon by how many seasons are sold for next season.

Bloor West FC
09-13-2009, 08:56 AM
Hey people here is your answer!!



They should go out on Tuesday I think. Supporters section will be $17 I believe (for renewing season seat holders).

mighty_torontofc_2008
09-13-2009, 04:33 PM
look forward to tuesday..and running my debt even higher!!:D maybe i can apply to the Canaadian government for debt relief!! you Listening Mr Harper!!:D the only real sad part about renewals it means the season is coming to an end, and after staurdays great weather and result who wants that!!

flatpicker
09-13-2009, 04:39 PM
They should go out on Tuesday I think. Supporters section will be $17 I believe (for renewing season seat holders).


They were $14 this year if I am not mistaken.
Percentage wise that is a significant increase.

I swear I remember Paul saying recently that there wasn't going to be a price increase.

?

MG42
09-13-2009, 04:42 PM
I swear I remember Paul saying recently that there wasn't going to be a price increase.

?

That was in the $5 beer thread :)

mighty_torontofc_2008
09-13-2009, 04:46 PM
I swear I remember Paul saying recently that there wasn't going to be a price increase.

?


JDG coming in, grass as well, there was going to be a hike with all that,
15%-20%?

London
09-13-2009, 04:46 PM
so it is going to be a 19 dollar increase??

face is 16 (SSH price) and you will be charging 17,


i can handle that

Blizzard
09-13-2009, 04:55 PM
Soon they will send out the renewals, but with a signing of a DP get ready for a significant increase,This is the way maple leaef sports operates. Dont be surprised if they go up at least 100-150 and if you guys dont like it, they dont care they have a huge waiting list,others will pay.

http://neuronarrative.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/monty_python-spot-the-looney-fc.jpg

ArmenJBX
09-13-2009, 05:02 PM
If anyone isn't planning on renewing, PM me and I'll buy those tickets off you. I'm looking for 3 Season tickets.

kodiakTFC
09-13-2009, 05:08 PM
If anyone isn't planning on renewing, PM me and I'll buy those tickets off you. I'm looking for 3 Season tickets.

Same. I need 2.

Brooker
09-13-2009, 06:23 PM
whether we signed a DP or got grass or revamped the stadium... we all know they were going up regardless. just like they did last year, for no apparant reason. which begs the question, why exactly are they raising prices?

all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Flipityflu
09-14-2009, 07:23 AM
whether we signed a DP or got grass or revamped the stadium... we all know they were going up regardless. just like they did last year, for no apparant reason. which begs the question, why exactly are they raising prices?

all about $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$


well, its not like TFC/MLSE is a non-profit organization. the simple fact is that the prices get increased because the market can handle it.

Oldtimer
09-14-2009, 07:39 AM
TFC has to be careful, though. SS tickets may have been undervalued to start in 2007. If they raise prices too high, however, they can kill off the support that made TFC famous in North America.

One of the big selling points for soccer is that it is a moderately priced sport to attend.

Where is the "tipping point?" I suspect that $20 and over will result in some supporters deciding to watch from home.

London
09-14-2009, 07:43 AM
the fire renewals are up already and they have a payment plan over 7 months for new SSH

Globetrotter
09-14-2009, 09:25 AM
well, its not like TFC/MLSE is a non-profit organization. the simple fact is that the prices get increased because the market can handle it.

Yes, they're not a non profit outfit, but they could make the TFC project of theirs one where they actually connect to the fans, connect to the families and not run prices through the roof. They shouldn't lose money, but they don't need to squeeze pennies out of everyone. They have so many other parts of their machine that they can (and do) ravage the sporting fan community for money. They have to keep prices at a respectable level where families can take their kids, and supporters groups as strong as possible. Let TFC do their part in growing the game in the GTA/Canada/MLS. Keeping prices and a very reasonable level is key to this. I really hope MLSE can understand this, and hope they are smart about ticket pricing for the next 10 years. They don't need to make millions off this project.

DangerRed
09-14-2009, 09:38 AM
If you can't handle the price increase, PM me and I'll buy your seasons off you, payment 100 percent up front in one lump sum. I need a pair.

London
09-14-2009, 09:41 AM
TFC has to be careful, though. SS tickets may have been undervalued to start in 2007. If they raise prices too high, however, they can kill off the support that made TFC famous in North America.

One of the big selling points for soccer is that it is a moderately priced sport to attend.

Where is the "tipping point?" I suspect that $20 and over will result in some supporters deciding to watch from home.


$20 ???
per game???
per season??
if you walk away for a $20 yearly increase, you are not a supporter.
if you walk away for $20 a game, OK

Detroit_TFC
09-14-2009, 09:42 AM
WHAT IF....

MLSE raised the supporters section ticket price by a lot, for the purpose of clearing out the tourists (cheapskates, scalpers, etc), with lower % increases in the other sections. Ok or not ok?

London
09-14-2009, 09:43 AM
WHAT IF....

MLSE raised the supporters section ticket price by a lot, for the purpose of clearing out the tourists (cheapskates, scalpers, etc), with lower % increases in the other sections. Ok or not ok?

then they can shove there fucking seats up there ass!!!!

Parkdale
09-14-2009, 09:44 AM
Soon they will send out the renewals, but with a signing of a DP get ready for a significant increase,This is the way maple leaef sports operates. Dont be surprised if they go up at least 100-150 and if you guys dont like it, they dont care they have a huge waiting list,others will pay.

ahhh... posts based on nothing but speculation are my favorite.

Parkdale
09-14-2009, 09:45 AM
$20 ???
per game???
per season??
if you walk away for a $20 yearly increase, you are not a supporter.
if you walk away for $20 a game, OK

I think he means the per game cost to a SSH.

crozack
09-14-2009, 09:51 AM
Section 117
1st year paid $100
2nd year paid $200
3rd year paid $280
4th yr???? im guess the group rate no longer applies so $400??

Globetrotter
09-14-2009, 09:52 AM
If you can't handle the price increase, PM me and I'll buy your seasons off you, payment 100 percent up front in one lump sum. I need a pair.

Well I can handle the price increase, and I'm sure 20,000 people in the city can handle the increase (and management would know this), but that's not the point. IMO, TFC should not be a project where ownership is out to make a lot of money off of, particularly at this stage in the game.

Potential is here to make a lot of money, but that potential will still be here in 10 years if they don't drive fans away. Build the game. Embed this team within the city. We're still only three years old, and there's so much more that the team/organization could be doing. Build within the community, build within Canada, build this league we play in. Keep the game very affordable and open to all. Do that for quite a few years. There will be a day (if the league is successful, profitable, etc) when raising the prices will be justified (league wide). For now and the next few years to come, price increases should be extremely minimal.

London
09-14-2009, 09:52 AM
Section 117
1st year paid $100
2nd year paid $200
3rd year paid $280
4th yr???? im guess the group rate no longer applies so $400??


your tickets will be $320.

the price of a new season ticket holder in 2009.

crozack
09-14-2009, 09:56 AM
your tickets will be $320.

the price of a new season ticket holder in 2009.



thank you!

London
09-14-2009, 09:58 AM
thank you!

i am just speculating, as this has been the trend since day 1

there is also the paul bern twitter that said $1 a game increase, that is good!!

Suds
09-14-2009, 10:06 AM
i am just speculating, as this has been the trend since day 1

there is also the paul bern twitter that said $1 a game increase, that is good!!

I'll be interested to see where the final numbers come in for the different sections. My seats are already $920/year/seat.

I feel that is high for the product I'm paying to see. I understand you can't do a direct comparison to ticket prices in Europe, but you could pay that money to get season seats to just about any big club there.

There are also a large number of tickets held by scalpers. I wonder at what point they start to say ... not worth it, I can't mark these up enough to make $$.

Beach_Red
09-14-2009, 10:26 AM
Well I can handle the price increase, and I'm sure 20,000 people in the city can handle the increase (and management would know this), but that's not the point. IMO, TFC should not be a project where ownership is out to make a lot of money off of, particularly at this stage in the game.

Potential is here to make a lot of money, but that potential will still be here in 10 years if they don't drive fans away. Build the game. Embed this team within the city. We're still only three years old, and there's so much more that the team/organization could be doing. Build within the community, build within Canada, build this league we play in. Keep the game very affordable and open to all. Do that for quite a few years. There will be a day (if the league is successful, profitable, etc) when raising the prices will be justified (league wide). For now and the next few years to come, price increases should be extremely minimal.

Is this league really that solid, that we can be sure it'll be here in ten years? And that demand will be high for tickets? There may be demand in Toronto, but MLSE is really investing MLS. It's got to succeed for the investment to work out.

I like what you say about building within the community and so on but long-term success is a hard sell at the best of times and with the history of failed pro sports leagues in North America, it would be pretty much impossible to sell any board of directors on that now.

It does get complicated in sports where there isn't such a clear line between business and culture (like the arts) sports is a big part of our culture, but no company - not just MLSE - is ever going to take less profit than it can for the "good of the community."

But I agree with you, it's too bad.

Oldtimer
09-14-2009, 10:27 AM
I think he means the per game cost to a SSH.

Yes. $400 a year will make some university students think twice.

Bobo
09-14-2009, 05:19 PM
If anyone isn't planning on renewing, PM me and I'll buy those tickets off you. I'm looking for 3 Season tickets.


Same. I need 2.


If you can't handle the price increase, PM me and I'll buy your seasons off you, payment 100 percent up front in one lump sum. I need a pair.

Thanks guys!

Signed,
ML$E douche.

Nuvinho
09-15-2009, 07:23 AM
Invoices are online:

supporters: $323/seat
dark greys: $931/seat

sorry only have those prices.

Steve
09-15-2009, 07:26 AM
Invoices are online:

supporters: $323/seat
dark greys: $931/seat

sorry only have those prices.

$11 increase for me (or a 1.2% increase)? Hmm, I think I can handle that (of course, I'd much rather pay the $323, but we'll have to see if I can transfer this year).

Ageroo
09-15-2009, 07:28 AM
Invoices are online:

supporters: $323/seat
dark greys: $931/seat

sorry only have those prices.

You had to tell me this......:) I guess I better go check. I can tell you what light greys are in a sec!

Ageroo
09-15-2009, 07:30 AM
$361/seat for the light greys and as Nuvinho said $323/seat for the Supporters

Darlofletch
09-15-2009, 07:37 AM
Is it the same price for renewals as it is if this is the first time buying seasons?

Ageroo
09-15-2009, 07:40 AM
Is it the same price for renewals as it is if this is the first time buying seasons?

I am not sure....but new season ticket purchasers seem to always have a bit added on to them...or at least I think they did for people last season. I just see the invoice and then hit the 3 stage payement as always.....my 4 seats in the Supporters and light greys were $1268.00 + 12.00 handling fee...so 1380.00 total.

Toronto Gunner
09-15-2009, 07:43 AM
Check your account manager page - renewal information is up.

menefreghista
09-15-2009, 08:01 AM
For those playing along at home, the increase for the south end is over 15%

Miko
09-15-2009, 08:04 AM
Not everyone's invoice is posted yet - mine isn't

Suds
09-15-2009, 08:04 AM
I am not sure....but new season ticket purchasers seem to always have a bit added on to them...or at least I think they did for people last season. I just see the invoice and then hit the 3 stage payement as always.....my 4 seats in the Supporters and light greys were $1268.00 + 12.00 handling fee...so 1380.00 total.

As I recall, if you purchased year one there was a price guarantee in place for a few years. Heading in to year four I'm thinking any price guarantees are now done.

New SSH will buy in at the new rate for the coming year.

menefreghista
09-15-2009, 08:06 AM
.....

Nuvinho
09-15-2009, 08:07 AM
now the real question, how many games are included in our package?

15 MLS games, 2 Canadian Championship games.....others??

Suds
09-15-2009, 08:08 AM
Not everyone's invoice is posted yet - mine isn't

Nor mine. I guess it will take them some time to get all the accounts updated.

menefreghista
09-15-2009, 08:09 AM
now the real question, how many games are included in our package?

15 MLS games, 2 Canadian Championship games.....others??

Paul said $17 per game. 17x19 is exactly $323.

I'm assuming it will the same set up as 2009. 15 MLS games, 2 CC games, 1 friendly, 1 CCL game.

Miko
09-15-2009, 08:11 AM
.....

Went to account manager, clicked on 2010 renewal invoice, no invoice there.

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 08:37 AM
As I recall, if you purchased year one there was a price guarantee in place for a few years.

no there wasn't.

one thing that bugs me is when some people intentionally use misleading facts (not trying to single you out suds, but just in general).

someone in here posted that the south end seats were $100 in the first season - which is true but ONLY if you also bought seats in the top 3 priced sections. You can't use the $100 number to explain a +100% increase from the first to the second season. That's just using faulty math.

Shaughno
09-15-2009, 08:39 AM
Still has there been a 15% increase in product on the field over each of the past three seasons? Because from what I've seen, we're far from deserving what we are paying... If it wasn't for the support TFC gets, these tickets would be useless.

MrHawk
09-15-2009, 08:54 AM
2007 Season

W:6
L:17
T:7
Pts:25

2008 Season:

W:9
L:13
T:8
Pts:35

2009 Season:
W:9
L:9
T:7
Pts:34

That's our increase in point totals.

London
09-15-2009, 09:47 AM
there is no invoice in my manager yet??

Detroit_TFC
09-15-2009, 09:54 AM
Paul said $17 per game. 17x19 is exactly $323.

I'm assuming it will the same set up as 2009. 15 MLS games, 2 CC games, 1 friendly, 1 CCL game.

In 2009 the friendly was priced 2x the other tickets. For med grey it was $29 x 15 league games, $29 x 2 CC games, $29 x 1 CCL game, $58 x 1 intl friendly = $580 (renewal price).

AL-MO
09-15-2009, 10:42 AM
Paul said $17 per game. 17x19 is exactly $323.

I'm assuming it will the same set up as 2009. 15 MLS games, 2 CC games, 1 friendly, 1 CCL game.

Looks like that is what it is. 15% Increase.

Post on U-Sector board:


While browsing my account manager, I noticed the renewal invoice appeared on my account. I don't have all the prices, but I do have the prices for the 2 lowest ticket brackets:

South End: $323

Light Grey: $361

Let the bitching commence....

I'm trying to find out if this is for 19 events like it was this season. Although Paul Beirne posted on the RPB forum that it will be $17 per game in the south end, which matches up perfectly with 19 games.

By my math, this increase is a hefty 15% over what we paid last year. I think I may have to split my tickets with Dad. Don't think I can afford this at the moment by myself.

rocker
09-15-2009, 11:09 AM
Still has there been a 15% increase in product on the field over each of the past three seasons?

umm... how would you determine what a 15% increase in product on the field is?

would it be points? can't think of any objective way other than points.

TFC had a 40% increase in points between seasons 1 and 2.
TFC is on pace for a 17% increase on points between season 2 and 3.

Globetrotter
09-15-2009, 11:09 AM
Dark grey from $880 to $931 is 5.8%. Increase of $51 is about $3 a game. meh.

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 11:12 AM
I think I may have to split my tickets with Dad. Don't think I can afford this at the moment by myself.

get a job!

Detroit_TFC
09-15-2009, 11:13 AM
A higher % incr for the lower price points? Kinda thought that might happen, just a guess though. Still waiting to see mine in medium grey, not posted to Acct Mgr yet.

Pinkie
09-15-2009, 11:26 AM
I think I may have to split my tickets with Dad. Don't think I can afford this at the moment by myself.

dude-do what i do-space out your payments-because I certainly can't afford to pay half a paycheque in one go!


oh and also GET A JOB :P (to quote parky)

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 11:26 AM
A higher % incr for the lower price points?

the relative % increase for premium seats was higher last year than it was for the cheaper seats.

It makes sense to give some groups a break once in a while.

London
09-15-2009, 11:27 AM
i paid mine in full before,

what are the payments like??

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 11:28 AM
side note:

I hope that every super supporter who's ever chanted "sell your tickets" to someone they deem to be less of a supporter than themselves, get's hit with a 1000% increase.

werewolf
09-15-2009, 11:30 AM
umm... how would you determine what a 15% increase in product on the field is?

would it be points? can't think of any objective way other than points.

TFC had a 40% increase in points between seasons 1 and 2.
TFC is on pace for a 17% increase on points between season 2 and 3.

That is under the assumption that $200 tickets are only worth 25 points...

Nodoubtguy
09-15-2009, 11:31 AM
i paid mine in full before,

what are the payments like??

20% down, 40% in November, 40% in December......pretty sure thats was how it was last year

Suds
09-15-2009, 11:31 AM
no there wasn't.

one thing that bugs me is when some people intentionally use misleading facts (not trying to single you out suds, but just in general).

someone in here posted that the south end seats were $100 in the first season - which is true but ONLY if you also bought seats in the top 3 priced sections. You can't use the $100 number to explain a +100% increase from the first to the second season. That's just using faulty math.

That is not what I was suggesting. My bad for not being clear.

I understand your point on posting facts though.

Some people in the Dark Grey are finding their renewal is going from $880 - $931 (see above). Mine is going from $920 - $931 for Dark Grey. What I meant to point out is that if someone purchased in year one or two they were renewing at a lower purchase point than those of use who purchase in year three. That was a benefit to those who purchase from the start. Their renewal amount was based off their original purchase. But now it seems as though all purchases are coming in line; everyone is paying the same.

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 11:33 AM
^ yep, and to add another thought on there....

not many people actually get 'new' seasons tickets, so almost everyone pays the renewal rate.

Roogsy
09-15-2009, 11:33 AM
Still has there been a 15% increase in product on the field over each of the past three seasons? Because from what I've seen, we're far from deserving what we are paying... If it wasn't for the support TFC gets, these tickets would be useless.

I'd like to see where we stack up in price vs the rest of the league. If we are near the top or heaven forbid THE priciest team, then we are getting ripped off.

Rudi
09-15-2009, 11:33 AM
side note:

I hope that every super supporter who's ever chanted "sell your tickets" to someone they deem to be less of a supporter than themselves, get's hit with a 1000% increase.
LOL you're stirring the pot. ;)

Rudi
09-15-2009, 11:34 AM
I'd like to see where we stack up in price vs the rest of the league. If we are near the top or heaven forbid THE priciest team, then we are getting ripped off.
We're second. LA is first.

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 11:34 AM
I'd like to see where we stack up in price vs the rest of the league. If we are near the top or heaven forbid THE priciest team, then we are getting ripped off.


you really don't want to know how it compares. really, you dont

Roogsy
09-15-2009, 11:35 AM
We're second. LA is first.


Ugh...

OK lube me up then...

London
09-15-2009, 11:36 AM
20% down, 40% in November, 40% in December......pretty sure thats was how it was last year

i think i will go that route this year

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 11:36 AM
http://web.mlsnet.com/t100/imgs/stadium/seatingmap.gif

^ I'm using Chicago as a comparable example - big city, small SSS.

Rudi
09-15-2009, 11:37 AM
http://web.mlsnet.com/t100/imgs/stadium/seatingmap.gif

^ I'm using Chicago as a comparable example - big city, small SSS.
Also small demand.

nobodybeatsthewiz
09-15-2009, 11:37 AM
if it is $323 (x2 = $646) then i wonder how we translate a 62% increase over 3 yrs to 3 yrs of performance? assuming that 25 pts = $400 and that teams operate on 3-5 yr plans (which they do in sports)

Shaughno
09-15-2009, 11:37 AM
I'll tell you this. In two years, if the price increase is relatively similar. There will be many less supporters in the stands.

I know I'm not ready to pay double what I paid for the first season, not unless we actually win something... and I don't mean against USL teams.

Globetrotter
09-15-2009, 11:39 AM
I'd like to see where we stack up in price vs the rest of the league. If we are near the top or heaven forbid THE priciest team, then we are getting ripped off.

We are getting ripped off. This is MLS. Why is a seat costing $55? That's not even a top two price level either. A seat to watch an MLS caliber game is costing $55. Outrageous.

AL-MO
09-15-2009, 11:41 AM
How do we compare to teams overseas?

Roogsy
09-15-2009, 11:41 AM
There simply is no justification for not holding prices the same despite the grass and DP.

Columbus has grass and a DP and they have actually won something. And yet their tickets are less. Same thing with Chicago. NY is a special case so we can't really use them for comparison.

If TFC really wanted to win fans support, they would have held prices firm AT LEAST one of the last 3 years.

I can't imagine what they are going to do if this team actually starts winning something. No lube at all baby...it's going up dry!

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 11:41 AM
I know I'm not ready to pay double what I paid for the first season,

but you were in super early and got the 'early bird' pricing. Is it double of the actual ticket cost?


* edit: I take that back. there was no 'early bird' special on the supporters sections.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/mike24k/bmo_field/seating_chart.jpg

Nodoubtguy
09-15-2009, 11:42 AM
Also small demand.

Thats it in a nut shell.....as long as theres demand and a waiting list, the increases will flow!!!

Pigfynn
09-15-2009, 11:46 AM
The thing about this is the product they're selling has to improve to justify asking more doesn't it? I mean would you pay $300 for a Playstation 2 when you know you can get a PS3 for the same price?

To continue the video console analogy lol.....Would you be pissed off if you bought your PS2 at Walmart in Burlington for $300 only to find out that the Walmart in Oakville had them for $200?

Nevermind, I need more coffee

werewolf
09-15-2009, 11:47 AM
Thats it in a nut shell.....as long as theres demand and a waiting list, the increases will flow!!!

That's what the NY Giants thought too, a 20-year waiting list, now they can't even sell-out a new stadium.

nobodybeatsthewiz
09-15-2009, 11:52 AM
How do we compare to teams overseas?


i paid EUR18 X 2 = 36 euros a pair to be in the supporters section for the rome derby. 36 X 1.7 ~ $60/pair/game.

olegunnar
09-15-2009, 11:52 AM
That's what the NY Giants thought too, a 20-year waiting list, now they can't even sell-out a new stadium.

That's because they want to use PSLs to fund the stadium

nobodybeatsthewiz
09-15-2009, 11:53 AM
but you were in super early and got the 'early bird' pricing. Is it double of the actual ticket cost?


* edit: I take that back. there was no 'early bird' special on the supporters sections.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/mike24k/bmo_field/seating_chart.jpg


ugh, THIS discussion again??!

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 11:54 AM
every year, about this time.

werewolf
09-15-2009, 11:55 AM
That's because they want to use PSLs to fund the stadium

They are still pricing out their fans. And what if MLSE charges PSLs for expansion down the road?

I know we aren't at Giants Stadium levels now, but its coming.

nobodybeatsthewiz
09-15-2009, 11:57 AM
They are still pricing out their fans. And what if MLSE charges PSLs for expansion down the road?

I know we aren't at Giants Stadium levels now, but its coming.


travis, bet someone now that its coming, because its pretty much a sure thing.

Shaughno
09-15-2009, 11:58 AM
I'll flat out put money on that.

Whoop
09-15-2009, 11:58 AM
That's because they want to use PSLs to fund the stadium

Bingo.

Roogsy
09-15-2009, 11:59 AM
That's what the NY Giants thought too, a 20-year waiting list, now they can't even sell-out a new stadium.

Sports organizations aren't as smart as we think they are. A lot of it has to do with luck. One of the reasons I say they aren't as smart is because while they know how to maximize profits in the short-term, many fail to enable long-term strategies of customer loyalty. So while some owner might have been lucky to buy the Leafs as opposed to buying the Penguins (who for years haven't been profitable and I am not sure they are even now), the profits they see now are because of that luck, not because they are incredible prognosticators.

Fact: Leaf tickets weren't nearly in as much demand 20 years ago as they have been the past 10 years with so much corporate money spilling into MLSE. Will that last forever? Not always. Especially with Balsillie hopefully at some point moving a team down the Gardiner. That would be a huge blow to MLSE.

Like the Jays, the Argos and every other Toronto team that has had a "fad" period, TFC is getting lots of attention now, but if this team does not start winning, people will start staying away. And if you have alienated your dedicated supporter base by constant increases in costs, what are you left with? Think this can't happen? It's happened over and over. The only teams that are immune are perennial winners like the Yankees.

Like I said...they sure know how to maximize profits in the short-term. But they have no idea on how to keep customers happy and loyal. If Balsillie brings a hockey team to Southern Ontario, just WATCH that season ticket list shrivel like George Costanza in a cold pool.

So what we are seeing here is TFC maximizing profits. Good for them. Creating customer loyalty isn't even an afterthought. Eventually that comes to bite you back in the ass.

olegunnar
09-15-2009, 12:00 PM
I'll flat out put money on that.

Really?
I agree that the magic 8 ball would say "all signs point to yes" but I keep getting stuck at the "this is MLS soccer were talking about" point.

I can't say, MLS soccer will have teams with PSLs with a straight face.

It's MLS soccer.

Shaughno
09-15-2009, 12:02 PM
Really?
I agree that the magic 8 ball would say "all signs point to yes" but I keep getting stuck at the "this is MLS soccer were talking about" point.

I can't say, MLS soccer will have teams with PSLs with a straight face.

It's MLS soccer.

MLS soccer probably won't, but I almost guarantee that a few years down the road PSL's will be at least an option for TFC. Paul talked about it previously and I bet it gets put into place sometime down the line.

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 12:02 PM
If Balsillie brings a hockey team to Southern Ontario, just WATCH that season ticket list shrivel like George Costanza in a cold pool.

haven't you been told that your metaphors are terrible? Because if you haven't, let me be the first.

Pigfynn
09-15-2009, 12:04 PM
Sorry... PSLs????

Me no know

Shaughno
09-15-2009, 12:04 PM
^^ It may be terrible, but he's right. People (for the most part) just want a decently priced ticket for entertainment. If they can find it elsewhere without having to wait and pay out the ass... they will.

Shaughno
09-15-2009, 12:05 PM
Sorry... PSLs????

Me no know

Personal Seat Licenses ala Toronto Maple Leafs.

Pigfynn
09-15-2009, 12:06 PM
What does that mean/do?

Roogsy
09-15-2009, 12:06 PM
haven't you been told that your metaphors are terrible? Because if you haven't, let me be the first.

LMAO!

Those are similes not metaphors my friend.

And I entertain myself quite a bit! :D

Shaughno
09-15-2009, 12:07 PM
What does that mean/do?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Seat_License

Essentially...



A personal seat license, or PSL, gives the holder the right to buy season tickets for a certain seat in a stadium. This holder can sell the seat license to someone else if they no longer wish to purchase season tickets.[1] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Seat_License#cite_note-ravenpsl-0) However, if the seat license holder chooses not to sell the seat licenses and does not renew the season tickets, the holder forfeits the license back to the team. Most seat licenses are valid for as long as the team plays in the current venue.

mighty_torontofc_2008
09-15-2009, 12:08 PM
for all the fans that are complaing about a possible Seasons ticket raise,
are you the ones that want a DP? Grass? If you thought we could get those without a raise in the season tickets, your out of it.. add to the Fact we will have a game with Philadelphia Union next season the prices
would have gone up anyways. Becareful what you ask for,dp/grass you may have to pay for it!1

Pigfynn
09-15-2009, 12:09 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_Seat_License

Essentially...


Ahhhh... so what's the difference between that and what we have now except they charge us for the right to have the tickets?

The fact that we can sell the license?

Shaughno
09-15-2009, 12:10 PM
Ahhhh... so what's the difference between that and what we have now except they charge us for the right to have the tickets?

The fact that we can sell the license?

I believe you PAY to get the PSL, then PAY for your tickets. That's my understanding. The PSL is basically just ownership of the seat.

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 12:10 PM
are you the ones that want a DP? Grass? If you thought we could get those without a raise in the season tickets, your out of it..

actually.... what we wanted was the playoffs. We'll see how that goes.

Pigfynn
09-15-2009, 12:11 PM
I believe you PAY to get the PSL, then PAY for your tickets. That's my understanding. The PSL is basically just ownership of the seat.


I already have that.

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 12:12 PM
I already have that.

yes and no.

you have a 'free' ownership of the seat, and if you don't buy the tickets, your ownership is gone.

there is no set value on your seat beyond the tickets, so you can't sell the 'rights' to your seats without selling the tickets too.

in the leafs world, you could sell the license for big cash, then it would be up to the next guy to buy the actual tickets.

Pigfynn
09-15-2009, 12:13 PM
yes and no.

you have a 'free' ownership of the seat, and if you don't buy the tickets, your ownership is gone.

Doesn't this say the same thing?

However, if the seat license holder chooses not to sell the seat licenses and does not renew the season tickets, the holder forfeits the license back to the team

Wagner
09-15-2009, 12:13 PM
the golden goose is slowly being choked....

The atmosphere that 20-somethings created in the south end will fade with 15% increases every year...
and the yuppies in the prawnies won't be able to say, "bro, you gotta come to BMO with me....the atmosphere is unreal"

it's a downward spiral.

I know Mr. Paul has a job to do...i just wish they didn't squeeze the people that helped make TFC a success....

Maybe our gift in 2010 will be a pink jersey....you don't see a lot of them being worn around BMO....If they are gifted, will they be a write off??

Shaughno
09-15-2009, 12:14 PM
I already have that.


No, you don't actually. You have your seat for TFC home games, and any games they include with that. You have the option to pick up your seats for other things dealing with TFC, but things like the Genesis concert, Bill Clinton at BMO, etc, etc. Those kind of things you would have the rights to as well.

Example, a friend of mine has PSL's for a private box at the ACC. With that, they have the option of ANY event held at the ACC, or selling those tickets.

Or something along those lines anyway.

TorontoBlades
09-15-2009, 12:15 PM
Sports organizations aren't as smart as we think they are. A lot of it has to do with luck. One of the reasons I say they aren't as smart is because while they know how to maximize profits in the short-term, many fail to enable long-term strategies of customer loyalty. So while some owner might have been lucky to buy the Leafs as opposed to buying the Penguins (who for years haven't been profitable and I am not sure they are even now), the profits they see now are because of that luck, not because they are incredible prognosticators.

Fact: Leaf tickets weren't nearly in as much demand 20 years ago as they have been the past 10 years with so much corporate money spilling into MLSE. Will that last forever? Not always. Especially with Balsillie hopefully at some point moving a team down the Gardiner. That would be a huge blow to MLSE.

Like the Jays, the Argos and every other Toronto team that has had a "fad" period, TFC is getting lots of attention now, but if this team does not start winning, people will start staying away. And if you have alienated your dedicated supporter base by constant increases in costs, what are you left with? Think this can't happen? It's happened over and over. The only teams that are immune are perennial winners like the Yankees.

Like I said...they sure know how to maximize profits in the short-term. But they have no idea on how to keep customers happy and loyal. If Balsillie brings a hockey team to Southern Ontario, just WATCH that season ticket list shrivel like George Costanza in a cold pool.

So what we are seeing here is TFC maximizing profits. Good for them. Creating customer loyalty isn't even an afterthought. Eventually that comes to bite you back in the ass.

you're right it's flawed because I'm sure they get paid bonus and incentives on short term metrics, when in fact it should be a mix of short and long-term and intangible metrics....but how can you motivate people with long-term goals when turnover in the workforce is increasing all over the place.....

Shaughno
09-15-2009, 12:15 PM
Doesn't this say the same thing?

However, if the seat license holder chooses not to sell the seat licenses and does not renew the season tickets, the holder forfeits the license back to the team

Kind of, but you have to pay for the PSL and the season tickets.

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 12:15 PM
Example, a friend of mine has PSL's for a private box at the ACC. With that, they have the option of ANY event held at the ACC, or selling those tickets. .

I think that applies for the boxes at BMO too. I could be wrong, but I seem to think I saw that a box is yours whenever the stadium is hosting an event.

Pigfynn
09-15-2009, 12:16 PM
Still total bullshit IMO.

Make me pay more for what I basically already have now.

Shaughno
09-15-2009, 12:17 PM
Still total bullshit IMO.

Make me pay more for what I basically already have now.


EXACTLY!

:lol:

RedMAN127
09-15-2009, 12:19 PM
I believe you PAY to get the PSL, then PAY for your tickets. That's my understanding. The PSL is basically just ownership of the seat.

got a call about reds this year (ACC) seat license was $17,500 per seat ... PB mentioned a figure of 100k before - not sure if this is open market for platinum or what ... so that $17,500 is for both leafs and raps, both of which have significantly more games and much high ticket cost ~$140 ea ... as MLSE doesn't own BMO not sure they would be able to work the same system for TFC ... once you buy this you have the ability to transfer (sell) ownership to the seats - something we don't get under the current system for TFC

PS. yeah the tickets are in addition to the seat license, it would just create an open market for seasons ticket rights, most people would sell thier rights rather than release them back to the club, as such waiting list becomes rather meaningless

Chewy Unikronik
09-15-2009, 12:19 PM
I am not sure....but new season ticket purchasers seem to always have a bit added on to them...or at least I think they did for people last season. I just see the invoice and then hit the 3 stage payement as always.....my 4 seats in the Supporters and light greys were $1268.00 + 12.00 handling fee...so 1380.00 total.
Handle my ass... Next we'll have to fork over "convenience fees", or "paper and ink tax" or some other cockamany crap.

JonO
09-15-2009, 12:20 PM
Still total bullshit IMO.

Make me pay more for what I basically already have now.
It also allows you to transfer your season tix to someone else (so you could sell the rights to your seats rather than just give them up).

I don't like 'em - just saying is all....

Roogsy
09-15-2009, 12:21 PM
for all the fans that are complaing about a possible Seasons ticket raise,
are you the ones that want a DP? Grass? If you thought we could get those without a raise in the season tickets, your out of it.. add to the Fact we will have a game with Philadelphia Union next season the prices
would have gone up anyways. Becarefuk what you ask for,dp/grass you may have to pay for it!1

By that rationale, when we didn't get grass and we didn't have DP, what was the excuse for not keeping the price the same, especially for a first or second year team?

TFC missed their chance last year to earn some brownie points by NOT increasing rates and then doing so this year when they had something to show, a Canadian championship, a DP and grass in view. Instead, regardless of win or no win, DP or no DP, grass or no grass, great season or crappy season, we can expect increases. Like I said...that's great for maximizing profits...lousy for keeping customers happy.

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 12:23 PM
TFC missed their chance last year to earn some brownie points by NOT increasing rates and then doing so this year when they had something to show, a Canadian championship, a DP and grass in view. Instead, regardless of win or no win, DP or no DP, grass or no grass, great season or crappy season, we can expect increases.

it will always go up. everything goes. everything.

I'm not defending them, but I'm just saying that EVERYTHING gets more expensive as time move on. Acting like it shouldn't wont change anything.

TorontoBlades
09-15-2009, 12:24 PM
got a call about reds this year (ACC) seat license was $17,500 per seat ... PB mentioned a figure of 100k before - not sure if this is open market for platinum or what ... so that $17,500 is for both leafs and raps, both of which have significantly more games and much high ticket cost ~$140 ea ... as MLSE doesn't own BMO not sure they would be able to work the same system for TFC ... once you buy this you have the ability to transfer (sell) ownership to the seats - something we don't get under the current system for TFC

I've had an open market quote of about 50k for ACC golds....approx 25k for the license and 25k for the seats, if I recall correctly before I hung up

Chewy Unikronik
09-15-2009, 12:24 PM
for all the fans that are complaing about a possible Seasons ticket raise,
are you the ones that want a DP? Grass? If you thought we could get those without a raise in the season tickets, your out of it.. add to the Fact we will have a game with Philadelphia Union next season the prices
would have gone up anyways. Becarefuk what you ask for,dp/grass you may have to pay for it!1:hump::hump::hump:

Wagner
09-15-2009, 12:24 PM
my invoice isn't up yet....
but I'm pretty close to the end of the alphabetical list.

$200 in 2007
$240 in 2008
$280 in 2009
$320 in 2010

this is getting stupid.

Also, as the prices go up...the more scalping that will occur....the more beer chuckers and goofballs that will get into the stadium....

TFC FO....please start looking at the big picture and long-term.

I have paid $1,440 over 3 years to stand in the south end...cheer my face off.
Go on road trips, by the gear, etc....

And all we've been given is a single miracle victory over a USL team....and a massive price increase.

Shaughno
09-15-2009, 12:29 PM
my invoice isn't up yet....
but I'm pretty close to the end of the alphabetical list.

$200 in 2007
$240 in 2008
$280 in 2009
$320 in 2010
$380 in 2011
$425 in 2012
$490 in 2013

this is getting stupid.

Also, as the prices go up...the more scalping that will occur....the more beer chuckers and goofballs that will get into the stadium....

TFC FO....please start looking at the big picture and long-term.

I have paid $1,440 over 3 years to stand in the south end...cheer my face off.
Go on road trips, by the gear, etc....

And all we've been given is a single miracle victory over a USL team....and a massive price increase.

Added my projections for the next two renewals for those not getting the trend.

Like I said, they are pricing the people that WANT to be there.. out of the stadium.

Roogsy
09-15-2009, 12:31 PM
you're right it's flawed because I'm sure they get paid bonus and incentives on short term metrics, when in fact it should be a mix of short and long-term and intangible metrics....but how can you motivate people with long-term goals when turnover in the workforce is increasing all over the place.....

That is always the problem. In fact it is a factor that contributes to the symptoms we see before us.

Paul B's ultimate goal probably isn't to stay head of TFC. It's probably to move back to the Raptors or maybe even Leaf-land. Or maybe even outside of MLSE...maybe he'd like a job in a FO somewhere in the NFL? Therefore, he has to show results. The only results that contributes to his job security and promotion is the bottom line. Winning only matters if it brings in additional revenue that contributes to that bottom line (obviously it does). But the ultimate goal is obviously ROI.

There are very few long-term executives in sports. It's one of the most volatile employment positions I have ever been exposed to and isn't condusive to looking at things long-term.

Wagner
09-15-2009, 12:32 PM
The "things always go up" line is a little misleading.
I'm not sure if you checked the news this spring/summer...but there was a global economic downturn/recession/market correction.

I deal with procurement on occasion.
and with things getting tight...most firms have "sharpened their pencil" in terms of pricing. A lot of things are back at the pricing they were at 5 years ago....
so to say that the cost of business is going up...it's not always True.

If MLSE has competitive bidding on things like Printing, Supplies, etc....it is possible that they, like most companies, are seeing REDUCED pricing this year and next.

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 12:33 PM
Paul B's ultimate goal probably isn't to stay head of TFC. It's probably to move back to the Raptors or maybe even Leaf-land.

why would he choose to stop being a big fish in a small pond, unless the cash is that much greater (which I doubt it would be).

jeeze.... I know that most people think Paul B and the FO don't even like the sport - and that's just not true.

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 12:35 PM
The "things always go up" line is a little misleading.
I'm not sure if you checked the news this spring/summer...but there was a global economic downturn/recession/market correction.


yes, there was a downturn, but that just means people were taking a loss on items to to keep inventory moving. The big car companies were selling cars for cheaper just to keep them moving out of the factory because if they shut down the plant, they'd be finished.

and hell... I've heard lapdances at stripjoints are up to $30 a song now. I can't confirm this..... but it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

RedMAN127
09-15-2009, 12:35 PM
Added my projections for the next two renewals for those not getting the trend.

Like I said, they are pricing the people that WANT to be there.. out of the stadium.

$200 in 2007
$240 in 2008
$280 in 2009
$320 in 2010
$360 in 2011
$400 in 2012
$440 in 2013

it looks like a round $40 dollar increase first four years if that is any indication; the increases will have to be scalled back at some point ... also did we get CCL tickets first year? think we had two friendlies first two years, so the number of tickets last two years is -1 I think.

nobodybeatsthewiz
09-15-2009, 12:36 PM
Really?
I agree that the magic 8 ball would say "all signs point to yes" but I keep getting stuck at the "this is MLS soccer were talking about" point.

I can't say, MLS soccer will have teams with PSLs with a straight face.

It's MLS soccer.


i completely agree with your train of thought, but just remember, while the demand is still ripe for the milking the execs at mlse are looking into their 8 ball that reads, "go get it while the gettins good"

Chewy Unikronik
09-15-2009, 12:38 PM
Well, we'll get some money back, if(when) they don't make the playoffs. :(

Wagner
09-15-2009, 12:38 PM
I've met Mr. Paul a couple of times.
and he seems like a good guy.
I don't envy his situation though...to maintain his cool job, he has to feed the beast that is the teachers' pension fund....and no matter how much he feeds them they want more....if he feeds them 100 steaks today, they want 110 tomorrow...

Mr. Paul = Princess Leia on the leash.
Teachers Pension = Jabba the Hutt.

http://blog.cocoia.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/jabba-leia-throneroom.jpg

Roogsy
09-15-2009, 12:39 PM
it will always go up. everything goes. everything.

I'm not defending them, but I'm just saying that EVERYTHING gets more expensive as time move on. Acting like it shouldn't wont change anything.

Actually my friend, you are incorrect in your analysis of what essentially you are trying to explain, something called inflation.

The general trend yes is up. But the graphline isn't a straight line that heads up all the time. It's jagged. Most things go up and down with the general trend pointing up but with the ebbs and flows of market demand and conditions. Your statement is akin to saying all stocks go up. If that were the case...what did we see this year in the markets? All products have highs and lows. Ebbs and flows.

A computer last year may or may not be more expensive this year.

A movie ticket may or may not be more expensive this year. (In fact, Cineplex just announced lower ticket prices on some evenings, re-introducing the "Tuesday night" deal.

A car may or may not be more expensive this year. (In fact, this year highlights this fact nicely as there were incredible deals to be had.)

Food is one of the most inflationary products anywhere...and even THAT isn't guaranteed to be higher the next year over previous years.

So a product like a season ticket, being a marketable commodity, should see the same. And the market to a degree does dictate that very fact. Look at Jays tickets today compared to the early 90s when they were winning World Series. So being a first year team that exceeded all expectations by light-years, you would think that the team would've been able to keep price increases in the first renewal to zero. They didn't. And that's when I said to myself..."oh oh". This year, I can understand a price increase with the success of the CCL and the DP. But that only reaffirms my fear that we will never see a year where this team holds price increases to zero...regardless of the issues sorrounding the team. That is unless fans start staying away and we wind up looking like Columbus with half-filled stadiums. What the team doesn't realize is that with every price increase, that is exactly what they will wind up with if they are not careful. It's sad that what it takes is customer apathy for teams to start making an effort with customers again.

Roogsy
09-15-2009, 12:40 PM
I've met Mr. Paul a couple of times.
and he seems like a good guy.
I don't envy his situation though...to maintain his cool job, he has to feed the beast that is the teachers' pension fund....and no matter how much he feeds them they want more....if he feeds them 100 steaks today, they want 110 tomorrow...

Mr. Paul = Princess Leia on the leash.
Teachers Pension = Jabba the Hutt.

http://blog.cocoia.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/jabba-leia-throneroom.jpg

I've met Paul too...Leia is much more pretty. LOL!

I don't even want to see him in a gold bikini. Ever.

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 12:41 PM
^ oh right... I forgot you are the ace bean counter :D

nobodybeatsthewiz
09-15-2009, 12:41 PM
but how can you motivate people with long-term goals when turnover in the workforce is increasing all over the place.....

it would never EVER happen under mlse ownership but it could go something like:

allow (like seattle, some euro clubs) supporters to have a voting say in who's running the team. the same supporters would have a say tying in performance to pay, ie) playoffs.

Roogsy
09-15-2009, 12:42 PM
why would he choose to stop being a big fish in a small pond, unless the cash is that much greater (which I doubt it would be).

jeeze.... I know that most people think Paul B and the FO don't even like the sport - and that's just not true.

Who said anything about liking the sport or not? This is about a career which is what this is for Paul.

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 12:43 PM
Who said anything about liking the sport or not?
This is about a career which is what this is for Paul.

yes, it's a career, but wouldn't every single person on the planet
pick a career in an area they really like over one that isn't as enjoyable?

Roogsy
09-15-2009, 12:43 PM
yes, there was a downturn, but that just means people were taking a loss on items to to keep inventory moving. The big car companies were selling cars for cheaper just to keep them moving out of the factory because if they shut down the plant, they'd be finished.

and hell... I've heard lapdances at stripjoints are up to $30 a song now. I can't confirm this..... but it wouldn't surprise me one bit.

I've heard some clubs are offering 2 for 1 lap dances my friend.

I don't ever want you managing my money. :D

nobodybeatsthewiz
09-15-2009, 12:44 PM
it will always go up. everything goes. everything.

I'm not defending them, but I'm just saying that EVERYTHING gets more expensive as time move on. Acting like it shouldn't wont change anything.


not true.

its WELL documented that we're in deflationary times. sure, inflation rises in the long term, but like roogsy said, they, in the short term, had a chance to do the right thing and earn some credibility.

Wagner
09-15-2009, 12:46 PM
That's why the coolest Team owners aren't corporations.
Mark Cuban,
Artie Moreno...
they are more about the team....if they lose a couple million, who cares....they had fun, and the fans benefitted.

When Moreno bought the LA Angels, one of his first orders of business....lower beer prices....
can you imagine, in a big market like Metro LA....lowering beer prices...and his team is good...they win.

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 12:47 PM
not true.

its WELL documented that we're in deflationary times. sure, inflation rises in the long term, but like roogsy said, they, in the short term, had a chance to do the right thing and earn some credibility.

even if we're on a downturn now, the long term trend is rising.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4444fjTJhyg/SbdB620LMLI/AAAAAAAAAMY/aYbqKdO8X98/s400/SP500+Long+Term+Trend


^ yes this chart isn't perfectly suited to the discussion, but see the big downturn in the late 70's? Still, it worked it's way back up.

Roogsy
09-15-2009, 12:48 PM
yes, it's a career, but wouldn't every single person on the planet
pick a career in an area they really like over one that isn't as enjoyable?

Every person would. I don't know his personal goals myself, but neither do you. Like I said....maybe he wants a position in a NFL front office? Maybe he wants to run a national organization like Hockey Canada? Maybe he wants to head up marketing in the NBA. All may satisfy that which you identify as "enjoyable" and yet all involve him leaving.

If there is anything I have learned about MSLE it's that most people that work there, save for those in ownership positions, wind up leaving for greener pastures. Look at Marc Petitpas. In fact, it is well-known on the street that MLSE is a training ground for new professionals to earn their way into more lucrative positions elsewhere. And most of us here have noticed that in the way sometimes the organization is a little green around the edges.

nobodybeatsthewiz
09-15-2009, 12:48 PM
even if we're on a downturn now, the long term trend is rising.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4444fjTJhyg/SbdB620LMLI/AAAAAAAAAMY/aYbqKdO8X98/s400/SP500+Long+Term+Trend


^ yes this chart isn't perfectly suited to the discussion, but see the big downturn in the late 70's? Still, it worked it's way back up.


surely youre not making the sweeping assumption that broad equity markets mirror CPI indices????

dont work that way my friend.

they track together on a long enough timeframe and do correlate, but arent one in the same.

Globetrotter
09-15-2009, 12:48 PM
for all the fans that are complaing about a possible Seasons ticket raise,
are you the ones that want a DP? Grass? If you thought we could get those without a raise in the season tickets, your out of it.. add to the Fact we will have a game with Philadelphia Union next season the prices
would have gone up anyways. Becarefuk what you ask for,dp/grass you may have to pay for it!1

1- we don't have grass, and when they give us the renewal with the markup, we still won't have a written approval for grass. it's pretty lousy if they charge for it at this point.

2- we gain a game vs Philadelphia, but they aren't increasing # of league games, so we'll lose a game vs a team that we play 3 times in the season (like NY or Columbus).

Wagner
09-15-2009, 12:48 PM
^^^ Parky Dizzle,

but if you extrapolated at the 1927 level....you'd be way off.
we had a massive market correction over the last 12 months.

nobodybeatsthewiz
09-15-2009, 12:50 PM
anyways, the point is that prices are going up for tfc games when everywhere else theyve slightly dropped or remained constant.

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 12:51 PM
surely youre not making the sweeping assumption that broad equity markets mirror CPI indices????

dont work that way my friend.

they track together on a long enough timeframe and do correlate, but arent one in the same.



fine.... let's avoid the talk of markets:

http://www.followsteph.com/images/graphs/20050701A.gif

^ house prices, always going up, even durring fluctuations. (ouch, '71 was bad year)

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 12:52 PM
anyways, the point is that prices are going up for tfc games when everywhere else theyve slightly dropped or remained constant.

and that could be contributed to it being initially undervalued when it started, 4 seasons ago.

rocker
09-15-2009, 12:52 PM
That's why the coolest Team owners aren't corporations.
Mark Cuban,
Artie Moreno...
they are more about the team....if they lose a couple million, who cares....they had fun, and the fans benefitted.
=.

raps season tickets cost less on average than mavericks season tickets, despite the raps having corporate ownership. so it's not like Cuban is giving his fans a deal because he's a rich guy.
i don't see any benefit to being owned by one entity over the other.

Belfast_Boy
09-15-2009, 12:53 PM
I've heard some clubs are offering 2 for 1 lap dances my friend.

I don't ever want you managing my money. :D


wait wait wait!

2 for 1? hope it's not Jillys!

when do the renewals come out and does anyone know about the people on the waiting list? I tried calling them but the people I talked to were no help.

mighty_torontofc_2008
09-15-2009, 12:53 PM
By that rationale, when we didn't get grass and we didn't have DP, what was the excuse for not keeping the price the same, especially for a first or second year team?

TFC missed their chance last year to earn some brownie points by NOT increasing rates and then doing so this year when they had something to show, a Canadian championship, a DP and grass in view. Instead, regardless of win or no win, DP or no DP, grass or no grass, great season or crappy season, we can expect increases. Like I said...that's great for maximizing profits...lousy for keeping customers happy.


they had an extra game to seatlle to pay for, airline fees, etc . the same can be expect when Philly, Portland and vancouver arrive there is 3 more games added to the home /away schedule with Vancouver being a prime
game..you cant hold seasons tickets and not expect increases,just hope the increases are marginal and not a cash grab

fetajr
09-15-2009, 12:53 PM
I've met Mr. Paul a couple of times.
and he seems like a good guy.
I don't envy his situation though...to maintain his cool job, he has to feed the beast that is the teachers' pension fund....and no matter how much he feeds them they want more....if he feeds them 100 steaks today, they want 110 tomorrow...

Mr. Paul = Princess Leia on the leash.
Teachers Pension = Jabba the Hutt.

http://blog.cocoia.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/jabba-leia-throneroom.jpg



hahahahaha

Tom Anselmi is the guy with the tail on the back of his head.

nobodybeatsthewiz
09-15-2009, 12:53 PM
and that could be contributed to it being initially undervalued when it started, 4 seasons ago.

fail.

mlse cant cry undervalue when theyre the market maker that sets the price in yr one.

as for your chart, look at the huge plunges/corrections. i wonder if lap dances went up 62% over 3 yrs like our tickets are?

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 12:55 PM
as for your chart, look at the huge plunges/corrections. i wonder if lap dances went up 62% over 3 yrs like our tickets are?

in 1987 they probably did:

http://images.teamsugar.com/files/upl0/1/13839/14_2008/gekko-for-web.jpg


but I blame the yupies for that.

Roogsy
09-15-2009, 12:56 PM
even if we're on a downturn now, the long term trend is rising.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4444fjTJhyg/SbdB620LMLI/AAAAAAAAAMY/aYbqKdO8X98/s400/SP500+Long+Term+Trend


^ yes this chart isn't perfectly suited to the discussion, but see the big downturn in the late 70's? Still, it worked it's way back up.

It actually disproves your position Mike. And highlights mine perfectly. LIke I said, general trends go up, but year-over-year doesn't necessarily always mean higher.

If I have a season ticket that costs me $100 in year 1, $100 in year 2 and $110 in year 3. The general trend is still up. But year over year between year 1 and year 2 isn't "higher" as you suggested.

Roogsy
09-15-2009, 12:58 PM
fine.... let's avoid the talk of markets:

http://www.followsteph.com/images/graphs/20050701A.gif

^ house prices, always going up, even durring fluctuations. (ouch, '71 was bad year)

Wrong again. Oh Parky...please tell me you have someone else managing your money? Give it all to Kim please, she will take care of you I am sure.

Whoop
09-15-2009, 01:01 PM
fail.

mlse cant cry undervalue when theyre the market maker that sets the price in yr one.

as for your chart, look at the huge plunges/corrections. i wonder if lap dances went up 62% over 3 yrs like our tickets are?

Exactly... how can they cry undervalue when it's one of the more expensive tickets in MLS?

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 01:01 PM
yeah, I do see a point. the tickets never go DOWN, like the overall trends do.

mighty_torontofc_2008
09-15-2009, 01:02 PM
Section 117
1st year paid $100
2nd year paid $200
3rd year paid $280
4th yr???? im guess the group rate no longer applies so $400??

4th year $300?? $400 would be excessive for a price increase.

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 01:02 PM
Exactly... how can they cry undervalue when it's one of the more expensive tickets in MLS?

supply and demand. also, things are always more expensive in downtown toronto.

look at the cost of a 1 bedroom condo here - that's a 2 story house on an acre of land in Manitoba.

Roogsy
09-15-2009, 01:03 PM
they had an extra game to seatlle to pay for, airline fees, etc . the same can be expect when Philly, Portland and vancouver arrive there is 3 more games added to the home /away schedule with Vancouver being a prime
game..you cant hold seasons tickets and not expect increases,just hope the increases are marginal and not a cash grab

Unfortunately wrong again.

The "extra game" really wasn't an extra game since MLS teams have always played 30 games, they simply repeated some teams. With more teams in the league, it simply means fewer repeated teams. For example, this year we played Columbus and DC 3 times each I believe. Next year it will be a simple home and away only.

Seriously Mighty...you gotta think these things through.

nobodybeatsthewiz
09-15-2009, 01:04 PM
look at the cost of a 1 bedroom condo here - that's an 8story house on 35 acres of land in Manitoba.

youre right :)

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 01:07 PM
that's a BIG house!

Whoop
09-15-2009, 01:08 PM
supply and demand. also, things are always more expensive in downtown toronto.

look at the cost of a 1 bedroom condo here - that's a 2 story house on an acre of land in Manitoba.

I agree, but still don't think it was undervalued.

Sure there is supply and demand but if prices keep going up... there will be no more demand.

Miko
09-15-2009, 01:16 PM
Ignoring all the upward/downward trendlines isn't this just a simple supply/demand curve?

If we believe the club, there are 13,000 people on the waiting list. Therefore if someone cancels because their seats went up $10, ($100, $1000 doesn't matter), there are people who are willing to pay that adjusted price to get in the door.

The simple fact (very simple) is that prices will increase until they can't fill the place any more.

The Leafs are a perfect example - tickets are $300 because people will pay $300.

Tickets in Columbus are $10 with free parking and a hot dog because undecided fans won't pay more than $10 for it.

Might not be fair, egaliterian, socialist take your pick, but it's the way the sports world works.

That's what's at the crux of the NY Giants problem - it wasn't just the fact that the season ticket holders wouldn't pay the PSL's, it was the fact the next people on the list wouldn't pay them either.

FluSH
09-15-2009, 01:20 PM
Sooooo... I came by to check out this thread and it feels like I am at work... WTF!?

Eastend
09-15-2009, 01:23 PM
I know....wuh di ass is up wit the S&P chart?????? None of that here please....this is my refuge.

JonO
09-15-2009, 01:25 PM
To be honest - the prices in the supporters sections are not much out of line with the rest of the league (after a quick scan - not scientific). I do think they should watch the increases - especially over the next few years, but MLSE does not appear to be doing anything that other teams aren't...

You should try have seats in the "reds" - for some reason those seem to be consistently higher, although it is tougher to compare...

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 01:27 PM
You should try have seats in the "reds" - for some reason those seem to be consistently higher, although it is tougher to compare...

no kidding. I'm just waiting to see how bad mine gets hit.

Roogsy
09-15-2009, 01:28 PM
Ignoring all the upward/downward trendlines isn't this just a simple supply/demand curve?

If we believe the club, there are 13,000 people on the waiting list. Therefore if someone cancels because their seats went up $10, ($100, $1000 doesn't matter), there are people who are willing to pay that adjusted price to get in the door.

The simple fact (very simple) is that prices will increase until they can't fill the place any more.

The Leafs are a perfect example - tickets are $300 because people will pay $300.

Tickets in Columbus are $10 with free parking and a hot dog because undecided fans won't pay more than $10 for it.

Might not be fair, egaliterian, socialist take your pick, but it's the way the sports world works.

That's what's at the crux of the NY Giants problem - it wasn't just the fact that the season ticket holders wouldn't pay the PSL's, it was the fact the next people on the list wouldn't pay them either.

The problem is that sports teams seem to take for granted supply and demand, push the envelope and wind up alienating fans. Especially since their price increases are consistent, but very few teams have that same consistency in their on field success.

Because season ticket holders tend to hold on to tickets longer than they would say a computer or a dishwasher, it also means once they dump the product, they also tend to stay away longer. That's the problem. The supply and demand effect takes a longer period of time to translate in practical terms.

If at any point any team pushes fans too far to the point where they start driving them away, it's twice as difficult to lure them back. Look at the Jays, the Argos and even Columbus Crew!

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 01:31 PM
some comparison:

New England (http://www.revolutionsoccer.net/TicketPackages/index.cfm?ac=Seasons) supporters are $200, center sidelines are $430

Philly (http://ev15.evenue.net/cgi-bin/ncommerce3/SEGetEventInfo?ticketCode=GS%3AGLOBAL-UNION%3AUNION10%3AST2%3A&linkID=global-union&RSRC=PUCOM&RDAT=NavBar) supporters are $275, center sidelines are $700, clubs are $1100 (which is comparable)

BC101
09-15-2009, 01:33 PM
I know....wuh di ass is up wit the S&P chart?????? None of that here please....this is my refuge.
.................................................. ..........
VGSFW5W8HoI

Nodoubtguy
09-15-2009, 01:36 PM
The problem is that sports teams seem to take for granted supply and demand, push the envelope and wind up alienating fans. Especially since their price increases are consistent, but very few teams have that same consistency in their on field success.

Because season ticket holders tend to hold on to tickets longer than they would say a computer or a dishwasher, it also means once they dump the product, they also tend to stay away longer. That's the problem. The supply and demand effect takes a longer period of time to translate in practical terms.

If at any point any team pushes fans too far to the point where they start driving them away, it's twice as difficult to lure them back. Look at the Jays, the Argos and even Columbus Crew!

But this is where MLSE hits the jackpot with TFC, to not fill BMO they have to alienate a large percentage of people which is unlikely. $17 a game, while an increase, is still great value (at least to me) when you compare it to something like a movie or concert.

I think that if the renewal rates drop and the waiting list shrinks to less then 5k, you'll see the price increase drop for the next batch of renewals.

Eastend
09-15-2009, 01:37 PM
BC, I can't see the image (work) but I apologise for stealing your line...I love it.

menefreghista
09-15-2009, 01:45 PM
If at any point any team pushes fans too far to the point where they start driving them away, it's twice as difficult to lure them back. Look at the Jays, the Argos and even Columbus Crew!

Great point! You've been killing it in this thread. Hitting the nail on the head so often it isn't funny.

Another good example is the Toronto Rock. I had a friend with season seats along the glass. But after years and years of increases, he finally told them to fuck off. He hasn't been back since. I'm sure the idiots running the Rock though the demand would go on forever. But it didn't.

Even take TFC's supposed much vaunted waiting list. How many of those people on the waiting list are willing to buy tickets in the red sections? I'd be willing to bet the majority want their tickets as cheap as possible. This is why TFC is raising the south end tickets at a greater percentage than they are the prawn seats.

mighty_torontofc_2008
09-15-2009, 01:47 PM
Unfortunately wrong again.

The "extra game" really wasn't an extra game since MLS teams have always played 30 games, they simply repeated some teams. With more teams in the league, it simply means fewer repeated teams. For example, this year we played Columbus and DC 3 times each I believe. Next year it will be a simple home and away only.

Seriously Mighty...you gotta think these things through.


have always played 30..doesnt mean 2010 will be 30? it would be nice to see less of columbus though.

AL-MO
09-15-2009, 01:52 PM
.................................................. ..........
VGSFW5W8HoI

Was waiting for your response to that. :lol:

mmmikey
09-15-2009, 01:53 PM
for all the fans that are complaing about a possible Seasons ticket raise,
are you the ones that want a DP? Grass? If you thought we could get those without a raise in the season tickets, your out of it.. add to the Fact we will have a game with Philadelphia Union next season the prices
would have gone up anyways. Becareful what you ask for,dp/grass you may have to pay for it!1

no dp, no grass the last two years and the prices still went up. if u think this year wouldn't have had a price increase without a dp or grass, then MLSE has a sucker on its hands!

MUFC_Niagara
09-15-2009, 01:55 PM
Soon they will send out the renewals, but with a signing of a DP get ready for a significant increase,This is the way maple leaef sports operates. Dont be surprised if they go up at least 100-150 and if you guys dont like it, they dont care they have a huge waiting list,others will pay.

:facepalm:. That is all.

mighty_torontofc_2008
09-15-2009, 02:01 PM
no dp, no grass the last two years and the prices still went up. if u think this year wouldn't have had a price increase without a dp or grass, then MLSE has a sucker on its hands!

i knew that would be a price increase grass no grass, dp no dp,
but the amount of the increase will likely be small not $100-150
as some have suggested..could MLSE have not had an increase this year?
no doubt they could..but its a business..why fans who go it a fit this time of year of Season renewals, yet dont say much when gas prices rise 2-3 a week then drop the go up again?

MUFC_Niagara
09-15-2009, 02:05 PM
even if we're on a downturn now, the long term trend is rising.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_4444fjTJhyg/SbdB620LMLI/AAAAAAAAAMY/aYbqKdO8X98/s400/SP500+Long+Term+Trend


^ yes this chart isn't perfectly suited to the discussion, but see the big downturn in the late 70's? Still, it worked it's way back up.

Qu'est que le fuck? How did this enter into season ticket prices? I enjoy going and i'm sure the hike will be reasonable. If people don't want to pay then don't, do we need a thread to bitch about it?

Nodoubtguy
09-15-2009, 02:10 PM
think about this.....

http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/song-chart-memes-true-feelings.jpg?w=504&h=453

mmmikey
09-15-2009, 02:11 PM
more than inflation, the basic law of economics applies to the price of season tickets.

no matter the global trend, if a company still has sizable demand for a limited supply, they will continue to raise prices to maximize profits until they are at risk of jeopardizing that demand.

these prices will cause a decrease in demand. the demand still greatly dominates the supply. MLSE will NOT care how much those that purchase their supplies cheer at the game until they see a direct impact on the high demand they enjoy.

unfortunately its obvious to all of us what is causing the demand.. upper levels of MLSE appears to not value the atmosphere as much as the public of toronto and the team itself does. "atmosphere" is also an intangible thing to present to management of MLSE as a driver for demand. if person B took over the seats from person A who could no longer afford them, how do u underline to MLSE that person B generated less noise then person A. overall decibel count? i think this is more a case of MLSE assuming that since person A couldn't afford what person B could, that person B will generate more revenue for them through concessions, merchandise, etc. also, person A probably already has purchased several items, and no longer requires as much merchandise.

so until there is a way to show metrics concerning the impact of atmosphere on overall profitability, it will never compete against tangible revenue increases.

Parkdale
09-15-2009, 02:11 PM
^ internets thread strikes again! (directed at Sal's graphjam)

alex andrew
09-15-2009, 02:13 PM
speaking of charts, the dollar is .92 us going to par, i wonder what they'll do at .73 ?

Wagner
09-15-2009, 02:27 PM
15% increase in Prices.
100% decrease in Dichio.

So, i guess our goal is to make TFC less popular...to stem the rise in ticket prices...

mastermixer
09-15-2009, 02:52 PM
Does anyone know when they do the seat relocation appointments?

Darlofletch
09-15-2009, 03:03 PM
Great point! You've been killing it in this thread. Hitting the nail on the head so often it isn't funny.

Another good example is the Toronto Rock. I had a friend with season seats along the glass. But after years and years of increases, he finally told them to fuck off. He hasn't been back since. I'm sure the idiots running the Rock though the demand would go on forever. But it didn't.

Even take TFC's supposed much vaunted waiting list. How many of those people on the waiting list are willing to buy tickets in the red sections? I'd be willing to bet the majority want their tickets as cheap as possible. This is why TFC is raising the south end tickets at a greater percentage than they are the prawn seats.

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=14304

Supply and demand. Make it look like there's a lot of demand so you can raise prices and make people worried about losing their place.

the actual demand from the waiting list for anything other than the cheapest levels is probably fairly weak.

canadian_bhoy
09-15-2009, 03:44 PM
TFC please take note - I am considering not renewing.

You've gone back on your original promises to your fans:
"aggressive low prices to encourage supporters to come to every game, have a ball, and sing so loudly that their voices are hoarse the morning after!"

Is this increase going to break the bank? No...but is it justified?:

- 2 (1 coming) failing seasons on the field
- No DP until very late in the season
- reduction of benefits in season package
- how are these prices compared to the rest of the league

This price increase is rediculous. The club has made more money than expected each season they have been around, they scored huge on the madrid game, they sold Edu and on and on and on

I know they are trying to to get to push towards a threshold right now - how much will they pay.

Your fans deserve a real loyalty bonus. Freeze the prices now.

UltraSuperMegaMo
09-15-2009, 03:47 PM
Anyone still waiting for their invoice to show up on account manager? I've got a "box" from 2010 season set renewal, but when I click it there's no invoice. I figure I should give it day or two?

Nuvinho
09-15-2009, 03:48 PM
Anyone still waiting for their invoice to show up on account manager? I've got a "box" from 2010 season set renewal, but when I click it there's no invoice. I figure I should give it day or two?

mine was there earlier in the morning, then when I went back it wasn't there anymore.

AL-MO
09-15-2009, 04:08 PM
TFC please take note - I am considering not renewing.

You've gone back on your original promises to your fans:
"aggressive low prices to encourage supporters to come to every game, have a ball, and sing so loudly that their voices are hoarse the morning after!"

Is this increase going to break the bank? No...but is it justified?:

- 2 (1 coming) failing seasons on the field
- No DP until very late in the season
- reduction of benefits in season package
- how are these prices compared to the rest of the league

This price increase is rediculous. The club has made more money than expected each season they have been around, they scored huge on the madrid game, they sold Edu and on and on and on

I know they are trying to to get to push towards a threshold right now - how much will they pay.

Your fans deserve a real loyalty bonus. Freeze the prices now.

When CB is considering not renewing, you REALLY have to wonder....

Wagner
09-15-2009, 04:17 PM
TFC please take note - I am considering not renewing.

You've gone back on your original promises to your fans:
"aggressive low prices to encourage supporters to come to every game, have a ball, and sing so loudly that their voices are hoarse the morning after!"

Is this increase going to break the bank? No...but is it justified?:

- 2 (1 coming) failing seasons on the field
- No DP until very late in the season
- reduction of benefits in season package
- how are these prices compared to the rest of the league

This price increase is rediculous. The club has made more money than expected each season they have been around, they scored huge on the madrid game, they sold Edu and on and on and on

I know they are trying to to get to push towards a threshold right now - how much will they pay.

Your fans deserve a real loyalty bonus. Freeze the prices now.

well said C_B.

TorontoBlades
09-15-2009, 05:15 PM
it's unfortunate because I feel like I should renew and just not show up....

using the standard supply/demand - this would fix supply in place, and drive down demand - because the place would be just a little quieter by me not being there....if others did the same it would go down more....this is theoretically supplsed to drive down price....but I love TFC and want to go :(

TFCtoMUFC
09-15-2009, 05:33 PM
If anyone has any season tickets they arent going to renew, renew them and we can work something out. I only need one, 113 would be nice, it has to be supporters section. I will throw in something extra for the hassle plus I will love you long time.

Joe Kool
09-15-2009, 05:38 PM
Still no new invoice for me. I guess they are getting to them slowly since they have 16,000 or so to get to...not anxious to fork out any more dough right now anyways.

Brooker
09-15-2009, 05:38 PM
i think i can handle this increase... im still pissed... but... that's it.

if it goes up again next year... im done... ill watch most games from home.

Wagner
09-15-2009, 06:09 PM
It's funny how it has nothing to do with performance on the pitch.

They are asking for an INCREASE before the end of another season that didn't quite match expectations.

canadian_bhoy
09-15-2009, 07:04 PM
Interesting to see 23 NFL teams have frozen prices for the 2009 season. Thanks MLSE!
http://foxsports.foxnews.com/other/story/9410250/23-NFL-teams-freeze-ticket-prices

"we are very sensitive to our fans' needs and what the economy is like," said Jeff Blumb, a Packers spokesman."

Imagine that.

TFC_Toon
09-15-2009, 07:14 PM
Interesting to see 23 NFL teams have frozen prices for the 2009 season. Thanks MLSE!
http://foxsports.foxnews.com/other/story/9410250/23-NFL-teams-freeze-ticket-prices

"we are very sensitive to our fans' needs and what the economy is like," said Jeff Blumb, a Packers spokesman."

Imagine that.

And yet another valid point Mike.

Torcida
09-15-2009, 07:15 PM
Hey MLSE, Fuck you.

BOYCOTT CONCESSIONS

TFC Cityboy
09-15-2009, 07:23 PM
It's funny how it has nothing to do with performance on the pitch.

They are asking for an INCREASE before the end of another season that didn't quite match expectations.
You can guarantee they will go up, mate.

TFCtoMUFC
09-15-2009, 07:25 PM
It's funny how it has nothing to do with performance on the pitch.

They are asking for an INCREASE before the end of another season that didn't quite match expectations.

The nail just got hit right on the head. No justification to increase prices. We're still trying to get places but we havent gotten anywhere just yet. I will pay these prices because win or lose I love TFC (see I love San Diego Chargers for ridiculous love of a team even when they suck)

ilikemusic
09-15-2009, 08:37 PM
I swear there are people in this thread appalled about the price increases who were okay with them the previous two times.

Did anyone seriously expect they wouldnt go up?

The people who are outraged now and not before have missed their chance. This isnt the off-season to bitch price increases. Grass and a DP means I dont get to complain.

BeachFC
09-15-2009, 08:38 PM
1. I find the trend of ticket pricing is really alarming. As much as I love this team and bleed red, I've attended the games live because I appreciated the value I was getting for my money. However, I can be priced out of my tickets, and as someone mentioned, there would be some prawny replacing me in my seats. My price threshold might be higher then others, so even if I could afford to hold on to my seats, a large chunk of those creating the atmosphere in BMO might not be able to. If the atmosphere at BMO ever resembled that of the ACC, I would stay at home and watch on TV. As I'm sure many others would do. This team would become the Leafs for me, I haven't seen them live since 2001, and I question my allegiance every year.

2. I would never pay a personal seat license. If they ever tried to charge for personal seat licenses, they would abolish their season ticket fanbase, wipeout their waiting list and alienate fans, who as one poster mentioned would be more difficult to win back. It would free up a lot of tickets though ;)

3. Also, I wonder if MLSE has considered what their true demand is? I'm a Season Ticket Holder, I also have a pair of sucker Marlies packages A and B (which I'm not renewing), and I'm on the waiting list in triplicate (well duplicate, I doubt my ex-girlfriend will ever call me up if she gets a call for seasons). I would only buy tickets in a grey section or cheaper. I have to assume I'm the norm. So then is there really a massive waiting list? are there a number of us redundant cheapskates on their waiting list inflating the numbers? In my opinion the waiting list is a clever marketing tool, but it is not guaranteed income for MLSE when people start getting priced out of the market.

4. If the price increases come with added value (games, DP's, Grass, Trophies, etc.) then I'm okay with a reasonable increase, to offset the inflated operating costs. But, if this team fails to make the playoffs consistently, and can't offer any other value, then MLSE needs to be loyal to it's fanbase and freeze or decrease prices. I know it won't happen but it should for the longterm viability of this franchise.

ensco
09-15-2009, 09:14 PM
Wow, I was busy all day and missed a great dustup on one of my favourite topics: inflation.

There's probably been a lot more inflation over the last 20 years, and the last 4 years, than is generally reported.

The CPI data that the Bank of Canada (or US Bureau of Labor Statistics) put out is badly flawed. The basic problem is known as "pollyanna creep". Ask yourself: what are you paying today (vs 5 years ago) for groceries, shelter, gas, cable television, government services of any kind (such as driver's licence renewals)....does that square with the data you see in the paper about the inflation rate?

http://seekingalpha.com/article/72535-tinkering-with-inflation-calculations-the-pollyanna-creep-phenomenon

The example of cars and computers cited earlier are about something else entirely: progress. Lots of things that are manufactured get cheaper and better all the time. In 1960 10 televisions could buy you a car. Today it's more like 40. It's part of the overall picture, but it's not the picture

And don't get me started on all the forms of hidden inflation we have because people cut the services they provide for the same dollar of revenue: those ever longer lineups and waits on hold when visiting or calling banks and retailers, or going to the airport, or dealing with the government, are examples of this.

Not saying MLSE should or shouldn't raise prices. I don't have a big opinion about that. I can see both sides.

Roogsy
09-15-2009, 09:31 PM
speaking of charts, the dollar is .92 us going to par, i wonder what they'll do at .73 ?

Extremely good point. With each gain in the C$, MLSE makes more money because our U$ costs go down...such as players salaries. In fact, the team and league have saved (and conversely the players lost) 20% of the value of their contracts in C$ terms since the beginning of the year. For a player like DeRo who has a $450k contract, that means $90k. If it were me, I'd be raising holy stink.

But the point is that as their U$ costs go down, they make more money. And with each hike in our season ticket prices, the effect is multiplied by the fact that our dollar is so strong right now because the revenue we provide through tickets and concessions then becomes all that more powerful.

My guess is TFC/MLSE projections on profitability were based on a much lower C$ years ago. With unexpected sellouts for 3 years running (they were never expecting sellouts like this) profits were already way over expectations, now with the C$ strength, they are literally rolling in money. As Kent Brockman told Springfield, they can all take "golden showers".

http://spacecynic.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/kent_brockman.jpg

Believe me...there is no problems making money at TFC right now. I guess we are part of that reason.

denime
09-15-2009, 09:34 PM
http://i26.tinypic.com/2rmlbon.jpg

JonO
09-15-2009, 09:35 PM
Question for mlsintoronto (if you've made it this far) or someone else who knows for sure...

I haven't received my package yet, but I saw a link of the renewal video (which looked pretty swanky). However, it outlines only 18 games as part of the season ticket package. Is this an error or do we get 1 fewer game than last year?

JonO
09-15-2009, 09:37 PM
Extremely good point. With each gain in the C$, MLSE makes more money because our U$ costs go down...such as players salaries. In fact, the team and league have saved (and conversely the players lost) 20% of the value of their contracts in C$ terms since the beginning of the year. For a player like DeRo who has a $450k contract, that means $90k. If it were me, I'd be raising holy stink.

Don't MLS (not MLSE) pay the salaries? I can't stay on top of these things ;)

Roogsy
09-15-2009, 09:49 PM
Don't MLS (not MLSE) pay the salaries? I can't stay on top of these things ;)

MLS does pay the salaries yes. But since those salaries are paid for by the revenues generated by the team here, generating them in an appreciating currency is beneficial to the team and the league.

The league must be ecstatic that they have a Canadian team in the league right now as it helps offset the effects of the weaker dollar. It's just one team but believe me, looking at the projections, I bet they wish they had Vancouver AND Montreal in the league right now.

TFCtoMUFC
09-15-2009, 10:25 PM
1. I find the trend of ticket pricing is really alarming. As much as I love this team and bleed red, I've attended the games live because I appreciated the value I was getting for my money. However, I can be priced out of my tickets, and as someone mentioned, there would be some prawny replacing me in my seats. My price threshold might be higher then others, so even if I could afford to hold on to my seats, a large chunk of those creating the atmosphere in BMO might not be able to. If the atmosphere at BMO ever resembled that of the ACC, I would stay at home and watch on TV. As I'm sure many others would do. This team would become the Leafs for me, I haven't seen them live since 2001, and I question my allegiance every year.

2. I would never pay a personal seat license. If they ever tried to charge for personal seat licenses, they would abolish their season ticket fanbase, wipeout their waiting list and alienate fans, who as one poster mentioned would be more difficult to win back. It would free up a lot of tickets though ;)

3. Also, I wonder if MLSE has considered what their true demand is? I'm a Season Ticket Holder, I also have a pair of sucker Marlies packages A and B (which I'm not renewing), and I'm on the waiting list in triplicate (well duplicate, I doubt my ex-girlfriend will ever call me up if she gets a call for seasons). I would only buy tickets in a grey section or cheaper. I have to assume I'm the norm. So then is there really a massive waiting list? are there a number of us redundant cheapskates on their waiting list inflating the numbers? In my opinion the waiting list is a clever marketing tool, but it is not guaranteed income for MLSE when people start getting priced out of the market.

4. If the price increases come with added value (games, DP's, Grass, Trophies, etc.) then I'm okay with a reasonable increase, to offset the inflated operating costs. But, if this team fails to make the playoffs consistently, and can't offer any other value, then MLSE needs to be loyal to it's fanbase and freeze or decrease prices. I know it won't happen but it should for the longterm viability of this franchise.

You would think that this large waiting list would make them want to get on a 2nd deck on other parts of the stadium or at least a north stand. Bang on with the value, when I go to TFC games I know my 25 is being well spent. If price increases cause fans to give-up seats than the prices should go down as I lose half the fun of the game. The team is great and all but the atmosphere created by die hard fans in a section where anything (to some extent) can be done is the best part. I love TFC, not to keen on MLSE. I go to leaf games frequently because my dad gets free tickets from work. We usually get a pair in the platinums or low golds, everytime he gets them I suggest we sell. 400 for a pair of leaf tickets is insane when the arena is empty 1/2 the time because the corporates are in there boxes or lounges. TFC is a die hard team for die hard fans, not a money making operation for the man. Lets not forget, All For One!

Red CB Toronto
09-15-2009, 10:33 PM
Question for mlsintoronto (if you've made it this far) or someone else who knows for sure...

I haven't received my package yet, but I saw a link of the renewal video (which looked pretty swanky). However, it outlines only 18 games as part of the season ticket package. Is this an error or do we get 1 fewer game than last year?

I looks to me that this year they are not charging us for the Champions League match, which this year was against PR Islanders right out of the game. That was the 19th game in our package in 2008.

BakaGaijin
09-15-2009, 11:17 PM
You would think that this large waiting list would make them want to get on a 2nd deck on other parts of the stadium or at least a north stand.

I think the waiting list is bullshit. There are supposedly more people on the waiting list than the number of people who actually watch the games on t.v.

The t.v. ratings are so horrible for TFC that I doubt that much real demand actually exists.

TFC for many people is just a fad.

AL-MO
09-16-2009, 12:02 AM
Question for mlsintoronto (if you've made it this far) or someone else who knows for sure...

I haven't received my package yet, but I saw a link of the renewal video (which looked pretty swanky). However, it outlines only 18 games as part of the season ticket package. Is this an error or do we get 1 fewer game than last year?

Yeah they have done a great job marketing US in that video, at the same time raising the prices on our tickets.

Mikey
09-16-2009, 06:20 AM
Just looking at the silver lining: HOLY SHIT! $1300 for red seats!!!!!

Can you imagine paying that kind of money for the shitty on field performances we've suffered??

See, I feel much better about my south end tickets now.....

canadian_bhoy
09-16-2009, 06:36 AM
I swear there are people in this thread appalled about the price increases who were okay with them the previous two times.

Did anyone seriously expect they wouldnt go up?

The people who are outraged now and not before have missed their chance. This isnt the off-season to bitch price increases. Grass and a DP means I dont get to complain.

I think if you look for the threads from last years renewals, you'll see that the same people who are concerned about prices going up this year, were also just as concerned last season.

also - grass and a DP is an excuse to raise prices, that's just smoke and mirrors to justify the increase.

Oh and from what I read yesterday, the southend seats are the ones going up the most. Looks like the club has reached their threshold in the expensive seats - now they just need to "adjust" the pricing of the south end because the tickets are "cheap".

If you're on the waiting list right now - don't worry. In 5 years TFC will be in the same position the Raptors are in. They will price squeeze their original fans until they leave, then will spend millions trying to get them back. You'll be able to get a ST no problem.

ensco
09-16-2009, 06:54 AM
Big differences between Raptors and TFC. It's a different market. Raptors tickets are much more expensive, always were, same as every other NBA team. It's not like they have ever consistently sold out their worst seats, they way TFC do. More specifically:

1) The season ticket package is for 45 games, not 18. The hardcore basketball fan who is not rich buys tickets to a few games, he's not an SSH and never was.

2) The quality of the worst seats at BMO far exceeds the quality of most upper level tickets for basketball at the ACC. This is a big difference. The guy spending $21 for those Balcony corner seats for the Raptors might as well be in a different time zone. The south end is right in the middle of things at BMO.

But sure, MLSE could kill the golden goose that lays the eggs. Businesses do this all the time.

Nuvinho
09-16-2009, 07:30 AM
So its 18 games, if we make it to the Concaaf champs league playoff round, do we still get those free, or have to pay for them as well?

TorontoBlades
09-16-2009, 07:56 AM
So its 18 games, if we make it to the Concaaf champs league playoff round, do we still get those free, or have to pay for them as well?

Absolutely not. If it was free, then they would have marketed the hell out of that for months now

menefreghista
09-16-2009, 08:00 AM
Absolutely not. If it was free, then they would have marketed the hell out of that for months now

You are right. We were going to receive a credit had we not qualified.

TorontoBlades
09-16-2009, 08:03 AM
Question....I've always paid up front everything. With the payment plan, do they sneak in any kind of interest in there or any other fine print to squeeze an extra couple of dollars out of you...

Yes, I'm that weary of the snakes at MLSE...

Darlofletch
09-16-2009, 08:08 AM
http://i26.tinypic.com/2rmlbon.jpg


so presumably that means that we get another carlsberg cup friendly match included with our ticket? for someone good, but not too good.

Yay!

menefreghista
09-16-2009, 08:09 AM
Question....I've always paid up front everything. With the payment plan, do they sneak in any kind of interest in there or any other fine print to squeeze an extra couple of dollars out of you...

Yes, I'm that weary of the snakes at MLSE...

No interest or 'administration fees'. They just divide up the costs over 3 months.

I've always paid that way (when available). Have to give them credit for that.

TorontoBlades
09-16-2009, 08:11 AM
No interest or 'administration fees'. They just divide up the costs over 3 months.

I've always paid that way (when available). Have to give them credit for that.


Thanks for that. Fair enough, I should be doing it this way too then....

London
09-16-2009, 08:13 AM
they have a check option.

send 20% check, then a check for 100% of 2009 playoff tix?? then 80% check in december

Belfast_Boy
09-16-2009, 08:32 AM
Yeah they have done a great job marketing US in that video, at the same time raising the prices on our tickets.

That's right AL-MO! but you looked good!!!

For those on the waiting list

spoke to the ticket office yesterday. renewals are first then they go onto the waiting list, no news there. if you get an offer it'll be mid to late October or early November. Those that don't get a seasons ticket offer will be given the chance to buy a package, while supplies last, and get on a preferred list for 2011.

Flipityflu
09-16-2009, 09:17 AM
i will pay for the 2010 season ticket package.


i will no longer buy any concessions.

KrazyKanadian
09-16-2009, 09:21 AM
Renewal email just came in.

http://web.mlsnet.com/t280/tickets/ssh/renewal/

Parkdale
09-16-2009, 09:23 AM
not happy. not happy at all. (and not about the prices)

Darlofletch
09-16-2009, 09:29 AM
That's right AL-MO! but you looked good!!!

For those on the waiting list

spoke to the ticket office yesterday. renewals are first then they go onto the waiting list, no news there. if you get an offer it'll be mid to late October or early November. Those that don't get a seasons ticket offer will be given the chance to buy a package, while supplies last, and get on a preferred list for 2011.

thanks, that's good to know. did they say if they are doing the same as this year and having packages that are just tfc games, or is it only marlie packages that are going to be offered?

TFC Cityboy
09-16-2009, 09:39 AM
I'm surprised that Paul came on here saying the increase was $1 a game (South stand) then WHAM we get hit with a 15% increase to $323. As Director of Ops (or something like that), he should know better.

Advice, Paul...if you don't know, don't speculate. I was expecting a minor increase not a cash-grab, but then again I should know better from ML$E.

menefreghista
09-16-2009, 09:41 AM
I apologize if this was mentioned, but for those renewing in the south end, the increase is actually 22% when you factor in that they have taken a game away from us.

menefreghista
09-16-2009, 09:42 AM
I'm surprised that Paul came on here saying the increase was $1 a game (South stand) then WHAM we get hit with a 15% increase to $323. As Director of Ops (or something like that), he should know better.

Advice, Paul...if you don't know, don't speculate. I was expecting a minor increase not a cash-grab, but then again I should know better from ML$E.

I have a feeling he was purposely misinforming us.

This is just speculation though.

London
09-16-2009, 09:43 AM
my tickets are $335??????

menefreghista
09-16-2009, 09:45 AM
my tickets are $335??????

$12 service charge?

London
09-16-2009, 09:46 AM
i guess!!

just keep jacking it up!!!!

Belfast_Boy
09-16-2009, 09:46 AM
thanks, that's good to know. did they say if they are doing the same as this year and having packages that are just tfc games, or is it only marlie packages that are going to be offered?

sorry I didn't ask.

menefreghista
09-16-2009, 09:48 AM
i guess!!

just keep jacking it up!!!!

Not condoning it, but this is now the 3rd season we've had a $12 service charge tacked on to our accounts.

There was no service charge in season 1.

London
09-16-2009, 09:56 AM
i remember getting charged that fee now

Chevy
09-16-2009, 09:56 AM
If you're on the waiting list right now - don't worry. In 5 years TFC will be in the same position the Raptors are in. They will price squeeze their original fans until they leave, then will spend millions trying to get them back. You'll be able to get a ST no problem.

Sorry for the hi-jack, but the Raptors have pissed me off royally in the last week.

My uncle, a SSH since Day 1 (1995), who was also forced to pay a seat license fee AND purchase ALL games to the World B-ball championship games just to get a chance to buy season's seats, passed away this May from cancer.

When my cousin went to have the seat licenses transferred to my Aunt (not a non-family member, or scalper) it was no problem at all.....except for the $500 "transfer fee" that would have to be paid.

I wonderful gesture I thought, to a young fan who just lost his father. Idiots.

RedMAN127
09-16-2009, 09:56 AM
I apologize if this was mentioned, but for those renewing in the south end, the increase is actually 22% when you factor in that they have taken a game away from us.

yep, 17/14 = 122%

light grey, 19/16 = 118%

in fairness, last post I say from PB he said $17 per game ... PB you are seeting yourself up for failure by creating unreasonable expectations for revenue growth, these increases may be begin to backfire if maintained in future years ... would the NorthStand not meet current year expectations for revenue growth?

RedMAN127
09-16-2009, 10:00 AM
Not condoning it, but this is now the 3rd season we've had a $12 service charge tacked on to our accounts.

There was no service charge in season 1.

I swallow the $12 with a smile, because most people are paying close to that per ticket for those ticketmeiser fees ...

AL-MO
09-16-2009, 10:08 AM
That's right AL-MO! but you looked good!!!

For those on the waiting list

spoke to the ticket office yesterday. renewals are first then they go onto the waiting list, no news there. if you get an offer it'll be mid to late October or early November. Those that don't get a seasons ticket offer will be given the chance to buy a package, while supplies last, and get on a preferred list for 2011.

Yep, that's right my ugly mug is in there.

MLSE - EXPLOITING THE PASSION OF ITS SUPPORTERS SINCE 2008