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neuf
09-08-2009, 03:48 PM
http://my.thescore.com/footyblog/archive/2009/09/08/25319.aspx

Darlofletch
09-08-2009, 03:49 PM
booooooo!

billyfly
09-08-2009, 03:50 PM
Posted in JDG thread as well.

Damien
09-08-2009, 03:50 PM
As long as he stays within TFC im ok with it.

Darlofletch
09-08-2009, 03:50 PM
but yay to the coaching job.

flatpicker
09-08-2009, 03:54 PM
http://www.it.iitb.ac.in/%7Ekishoreiey/siteFiles/images/man_head_spinning_lg_nwm.gif

billyfly
09-08-2009, 03:55 PM
Ai Ca-rumba!

DangerRed
09-08-2009, 03:56 PM
That's amazing, if true. Danny's immediate retirement frees up cap space for the JDG deal so that he can be added to the squad right away. AND we get to keep Danny in a coaching capacity, which is awesome!

:scarf::scarf::scarf:

Broadview
09-08-2009, 04:02 PM
If Danny's happy with this then I'm happy.

Once we have the rest of the CMNT on board and we hit one of those weeks when MLS is in conflict with International dates, we'll be happy to have the big man around regardless of him being a coach, scout....whatever.

billyfly
09-08-2009, 04:03 PM
That's amazing, if true. Danny's immediate retirement frees up cap space for the JDG deal so that he can be added to the squad right away. AND we get to keep Danny in a coaching capacity, which is awesome!

:scarf::scarf::scarf:

we hope

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 04:05 PM
If Danny's happy with this then I'm happy.

If you ask me (and I don't have any particular inside info in this matter) I think that the team was putting pressure on Danny weeks ago in some form and he was not happy. And I think the blowup on these boards and in the media (thanks to J-Mol and K-Jack) helped Danny's cause.

Whatever he is getting, it was helped by the media and the fans crying out in support of Danny.

And that is why I never regretted the fact that this board allowed the Danny issue to be discussed to death. It let the FO know what they would be up against if they screwed Danny over. Hopefully he got something good enough to make him happy.

London
09-08-2009, 04:06 PM
How can one attend these things??

nimamalek
09-08-2009, 04:09 PM
How much room does this clear off of the cap?

KShep121
09-08-2009, 04:11 PM
Danny was clearly shown the door. The coaching gig is a PR move after the response from supporters over the past couple of weeks. Where are you now, Gerry Dobson? Still think there is nothing to make of the Dichio situation?

DangerRed
09-08-2009, 04:11 PM
How much room does this clear off of the cap?

Danny's guaranteed 2009 salary is $120,000, same as his base salary.

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 04:12 PM
I don't think it's guaranteed though is it? It's only guaranteed if he starts the season on the roster?

ensco
09-08-2009, 04:14 PM
Not saying I understand what is going on here, but this is my request: if TFC are eliminated prior to Oct 17, please sign Danny and put him back in for that one last game.

DangerRed
09-08-2009, 04:14 PM
I don't think it's guaranteed though is it? It's only guaranteed if he starts the season on the roster?

Here is the official explanation of what "guaranteed" means:

The documents linked below contain salary information for all MLS players as of the date shown. In the survey, all player salaries are broken down into two numbers. The first is the player's current base salary. The second is characterized as annual average guaranteed compensation. The annual average guaranteed compensation number includes a player's base salary and all signing and guaranteed bonuses annualized over the term of the player's contract, including option years. For example, if a player has a base salary of $50,000, has a two-year contract with two one-year options and received a $10,000 bonus when he signed, his average annual guaranteed compensation would be $52,500 (base salary plus signing bonus ($10,000), with the signing bonus divided by the number of years covered by the contract (4)). The average annual guaranteed compensation number also includes any annual marketing bonus to be received in the current year and any agent's fees annualized over the term of the contract. The average annual guaranteed compensation figure does not include performance bonuses because there is no guarantee that the player will hit those bonuses.

rocker
09-08-2009, 04:15 PM
If you ask me (and I don't have any particular inside info in this matter) I think that the team was putting pressure on Danny weeks ago in some form and he was not happy. And I think the blowup on these boards and in the media (thanks to J-Mol and K-Jack) helped Danny's cause.


WHOA.. that's a lot of assumptions there dude.. ;)

maybe that happened, maybe that's what you want to believe happened.

but I haven't seen anything to confirm any of that.

loconet
09-08-2009, 04:15 PM
Following this team is feeling awfully similar to following one of my grandma's novelas.

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 04:17 PM
Then his contract would still count against the cap. That means the negotiations would have to include eliminating that guarantee so that it frees up cap room. If that's the case, I hope Danny held firm and demanded that whatever salary he was due in 2010 that it continue in force, just in a management position, and longer than 2010.

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 04:17 PM
WHOA.. that's a lot of assumptions there dude.. ;)

maybe that happened, maybe that's what you want to believe happened.

but I haven't seen anything to confirm any of that.

I didn't say it was confirmed...I said it was my opinion. I thought that was clear enough?

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 04:18 PM
Following this team is feeling awfully similar to following one of my grandma's novelas.

Mexican or Colombian? LOL!

nobodybeatsthewiz
09-08-2009, 04:22 PM
wow, this fukking sucks

nobodybeatsthewiz
09-08-2009, 04:23 PM
job lined up to go to with another team?

Shakes McQueen
09-08-2009, 04:23 PM
Anyone else just wanna go to the Caribbean for a few days, and see what has happened with this team when we get back? Christ there's a lot of confusing shit going on.

- Scott

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 04:24 PM
That sounds like a plan Scott. Let's get blasted in the Caribbean and forget the madness going on at BMO Field.

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
09-08-2009, 04:24 PM
you gota be f'in kidding me!!!....they wont use sept 12th...as his last game at the club!????????? Would of been nice to give him a proper send off??? NO?...then again im sure it has to do with bringing in JDG!

loconet
09-08-2009, 04:25 PM
Mexican or Colombian? LOL!

You know, I still haven't decided. If MO ends up getting lost tomorrow because he had an accident on his way to the presser, loosing his memory, and turning him into a homeless person for 3 years AND then we find out Dichio is actually MO's long lost son (stolen by Carver as a small boy), then I'm going to have to go with Mexican. The Colombian ones are at least funny sometimes...

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 04:27 PM
You know, I still haven't decided. If MO ends up getting lost tomorrow because he had an accident on his way to the presser, loosing his memory, and turning him into a homeless person for 3 years AND then we find out Dichio is actually MO's long lost son (stolen by Carver as a small boy), then I'm going to have to go with Mexican. The Colombian ones are at least funny sometimes...

:lol:

jloome
09-08-2009, 04:28 PM
His wife is about to have a child. He was probably going to miss games anyway as a result, and Cummins' attempt to lightheartedly deflect that by saying he was "too old to fly" turned into a conspiracy theory.

In all likelihood, he's looked at the fact that his wife needs him, the team and he have looked at the fact there's only six games left in the season and he was retiring anyway. Then throw in the cap space issue for DeGuzman and the last two weeks make a lot of sense.

DangerRed
09-08-2009, 04:31 PM
Anyone else just wanna go to the Caribbean for a few days, and see what has happened with this team when we get back? Christ there's a lot of confusing shit going on.

- Scott

All the shouting reminds me of...
http://capitolposters.com/tshirtsoup/BRICKlarge.jpg
LOUD NOISES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 04:31 PM
A nice explanation Jeremy, but the inside info says that is not exactly accurate.

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
09-08-2009, 04:35 PM
as much as the JDG thing excites me!!. Tomorrow will be a sad moment!! Dichio loves the city..lover this country..and the fans adore hime!

Good to hear the big man will be staying on with the club...atleaste ML$E got it right this time!

Thanks for the memories DANNY! THE LEGEND TFC!

Ageroo
09-08-2009, 04:39 PM
you gota be f'in kidding me!!!....they wont use sept 12th...as his last game at the club!????????? Would of been nice to give him a proper send off??? NO?...then again im sure it has to do with bringing in JDG!

I think that is more the issue....they are hoping for a miracle run to make the playoffs....and it will be a miracle if pulled off.

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
09-08-2009, 04:45 PM
what are the odds..of JDG...being in the line up sat???

Shakes McQueen
09-08-2009, 04:45 PM
Okay Roogsy, and anyone else interested in going to the Caribbean with me - I got us soem seats for free on a small charter plane. The only catch is that they've asked us to put small balloons filled with white powder up our asses.

Seems like a decent deal. Certainly no worse than riding Air Canada coach? Amirite? :)

- Scott

Hustle
09-08-2009, 04:47 PM
Holy Fuck...A guy goes to the cottage for a week without internet and BAM...this is bonkers!!!

If its going down the way K-Jack says, I am pretty happy with this, although it is bitter sweet to not have Danny playing anymore, you be hard pressed to determine a better scenario. I'll save my applause until its all official.

Ageroo
09-08-2009, 04:48 PM
what are the odds..of JDG...being in the line up sat???

Apparently the league is the only thing holding this up......It took them forever with Gerba...so don't hold your breath....as this is a DP deal.

canadian_bhoy
09-08-2009, 04:52 PM
It kinda makes me sad that DD gets pushed out without even so much as a last home game goodbye, all the while there is TONS of dead weight still playing week in and week out.

As far as JDG goes, it's great news for the team. I think the way he is coming in kinda spoils it a little bit, but next season will be great.

Oor Wullie
09-08-2009, 04:55 PM
Just wondering, do you think TFC F.O. will plan a testamonial match to honour Danny? :noidea:

Nodoubtguy
09-08-2009, 04:57 PM
Just wondering, do you think TFC F.O. will plan a testamonial match to honour Danny? :noidea:

I love DD, but a testimonial match?? really??

Ageroo
09-08-2009, 04:58 PM
It kinda makes me sad that DD gets pushed out without even so much as a last home game goodbye, all the while there is TONS of dead weight still playing week in and week out.

As far as JDG goes, it's great news for the team. I think the way he is coming in kinda spoils it a little bit, but next season will be great.

Fully agree here......not sure about the timing of this.....maybe wait until after this week's home fixture and let Danny have a proper send off at home.

Ageroo
09-08-2009, 05:00 PM
The sad part for me was when we were in Niagara watching the game after the tournament...we all got excited seeing Danny come in the game....but I also said out loud that this is probably the last time he will see the pitch. I wish I really hadn't have said that now.....

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
09-08-2009, 05:00 PM
When was DANNY's LAST GAME A BMO FIELD...that he had played??

pekduck
09-08-2009, 05:02 PM
The sad part for me was when we were in Niagara watching the game after the tournament...we all got excited seeing Danny come in the game....but I also said out loud that this is probably the last time he will see the pitch. I wish I really hadn't have said that now.....

i heard that, it's all your fault!!! :rolleyes:

anyway, hope to see him around with our club long term

and I really really hope JGD can start asap and play some real football as opposed to the DM signature-esque long ball $h!t show again and again

Section 117
09-08-2009, 05:24 PM
His wife is about to have a child. He was probably going to miss games anyway as a result, and Cummins' attempt to lightheartedly deflect that by saying he was "too old to fly" turned into a conspiracy theory.

In all likelihood, he's looked at the fact that his wife needs him, the team and he have looked at the fact there's only six games left in the season and he was retiring anyway. Then throw in the cap space issue for DeGuzman and the last two weeks make a lot of sense.


She is not due for a couple of weeks so that is a bs excuse

London
09-08-2009, 05:25 PM
i dont know what to say...

Pachuco
09-08-2009, 05:32 PM
This is fucking bullshit, he's been asked to step down. I have no doubt about it. And since he's staying with the club, we'll never know the truth. This has bullshit written all over it. Fucking bullshit.

Did I say bullshit?

TFC USA
09-08-2009, 05:39 PM
I need to smoke something.

Forget this ever happened.


Right now the way the F.O fucked this up I'm done with them.


I'm so sad Danny is retiring NOW. May he have a great retirement. You will always be a TFC legend.

UltraSuperMegaMo
09-08-2009, 05:45 PM
I hope the give us chance to show our appreciation from him during Sat's game.

ArmenJBX
09-08-2009, 06:02 PM
Wish him the best of luck if this is true. Maybe he could take up an assistant coach/advisor/ambassador, get some of his old Euro buddies over here

Nuvinho
09-08-2009, 06:11 PM
Now this is interesting, aren't Robbo's kids in school....??


CarlRobinson33 (http://twitter.com/CarlRobinson33)Family gone back to the uk. The saying absence makes the heart grow fonder is so true!!

Mikey
09-08-2009, 06:13 PM
but yay to the coaching job.

Yeah, hopefully he's in charge instead of Cummins from Thursday onwards.

ArmenJBX
09-08-2009, 06:13 PM
If Robbo leaves, who's our vice captain?

FluSH
09-08-2009, 06:19 PM
It kinda makes me sad that DD gets pushed out without even so much as a last home game goodbye, all the while there is TONS of dead weight still playing week in and week out.

As far as JDG goes, it's great news for the team. I think the way he is coming in kinda spoils it a little bit, but next season will be great.


I am terribly sad... almost in disbelief that this is actually happening... we won't see him play at home anymore...

shwade
09-08-2009, 06:20 PM
If Robbo leaves, who's our vice captain?

DeRo?

ensco
09-08-2009, 06:20 PM
When was DANNY's LAST GAME A BMO FIELD...that he had played??

Puerto Rico on July 29. He came on in the 85th minute and almost scored in the 89th minute...

*sniff*

andyc
09-08-2009, 06:21 PM
I bet they play season ending injury (retirement) as a way around the cap issue...

At least Danny has landed with a coaching role - Let's hope he gets on with whoever is in charge of the team :D

Nuvinho
09-08-2009, 06:24 PM
I still think another player has to go to bring in JDG....no way it works under the cap.

ensco
09-08-2009, 06:25 PM
I bet they play season ending injury (retirement) as a way around the cap issue...

At least Danny has landed with a coaching role - Let's hope he gets on with whoever is in charge of the team :D


are you saying that Cummins is gone tomorrow also? are you in a position to know something?

ArmenJBX
09-08-2009, 06:27 PM
DeRo?
yeah probably

shwade
09-08-2009, 06:28 PM
I still think another player has to go to bring in JDG....no way it works under the cap.

If a DP comes in midseason doesn't it only count for $200 000 or something? So maybe we still had a lil room to spare.

Nuvinho
09-08-2009, 06:32 PM
If a DP comes in midseason doesn't it only count for $200 000 or something? So maybe we still had a lil room to spare.

Yeah, it costs $200,000. But releasing/retiring/forcing out Dichio midway would save only $60,000. I hope that they do have $140,000 left under the cap. I kept track of it for awhile, but MLS rules make on sense...so I have no clue how much they really have.

ArmenJBX
09-08-2009, 06:35 PM
maybe MLS makes an exception because of the fact that its only 6 games?

Nuvinho
09-08-2009, 06:38 PM
maybe MLS makes an exception because of the fact that its only 6 games?

I doubt it, we aren't the LA Galaxy.

ArmenJBX
09-08-2009, 06:41 PM
BS, TFC have done more for this league then LA Galaxy. If anyone deserves a break it's us, we bring in young, on form DP's and this is what we get?

bones
09-08-2009, 06:56 PM
Technically if we're really "short players" we can get him to play as a coach can't we? Or is that just trainers or waterboys or somethin?

;) Keep up the training I say, just in case.

Bones...

dag
09-08-2009, 07:01 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v238/vfile/libertyapes.jpg

DAMN YOU ALL TO HELL!!!

AL-MO
09-08-2009, 07:05 PM
BS, TFC have done more for this league then LA Galaxy. If anyone deserves a break it's us, we bring in young, on form DP's and this is what we get?

How so?

ArmenJBX
09-08-2009, 07:08 PM
LA Galaxy gave the league David Beckham

We gave this league a new outlook on a fanbase, a Canadian perspective, brought in more foreign talent, showed people how a draft should be, paved the way for Seattle Sounders and all future franchise opportunities, which will follow our plan. The soccer mom audiance was changed into the 18-35 age group, AAAAND we're set to become the first team to sign a designated player who is a big name, under 30 and in the prime of his career.

ArmenJBX
09-08-2009, 07:08 PM
Oh, and we defined what a travelling fan is.

AL-MO
09-08-2009, 07:11 PM
Jimmy, we are just another team with great fan support.

We have been around almost 3 years. We have nothing on the teams that have been around 10 +.

ArmenJBX
09-08-2009, 07:22 PM
maybe competitively but you cannot deny that TFC had a major part in the development of this league now and in the future. Beckham was just a name, but TFC was the beginning of a change for this league.

andyc
09-08-2009, 07:22 PM
are you saying that Cummins is gone tomorrow also? are you in a position to know something?

No - that definitely wasn't my intent...

I was kinda referring to the fact that Cummins may not be here next year since Mo needs someone to blame. Let's hope whoever comes in will get on with Danny.

It's really disappointing how the handling of this type of stuff always comes off as amateur hour...

kaos197O
09-08-2009, 07:26 PM
Do you really think they will bring in a new coach from outside or is it more likely that we'll see Nick and Danny teaming up next season?

Nuvinho
09-08-2009, 07:30 PM
They don't go by the amount of game left. I could be wrong, but use March 1st to December 31st as their salary cap structure. Halfway of that is August 1st (the same day that guaranteed contracts kick in).

So we have to pay JDG til the end of December.

ArmenJBX
09-08-2009, 07:30 PM
Do you really think they will bring in a new coach from outside or is it more likely that we'll see Nick and Danny teaming up next season?

I'd love to coach this team one day :D

It's on my to-do list.

The K-Man!
09-08-2009, 07:34 PM
Why wouldn't they let him play one last time in front of the home crowd?

ArmenJBX
09-08-2009, 07:39 PM
dd could be announcing a date of retirement and not an immediate tenderment of contract

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 07:45 PM
dd could be announcing a date of retirement and not an immediate tenderment of contract

You are the king of what ifs and could bes. You must be getting ready for a career in politics or something. In your short time you have become the biggest MLSE apologist on this board.

ArmenJBX
09-08-2009, 07:49 PM
You are the king of what ifs and could bes. You must be getting ready for a career in politics or something. In your short time you have become the biggest MLSE apologist on this board.

Meh, politics is acting for ugly people (what are you getting at Roogsy!? you callin me ugly! :O)

Just kidding :D

I can see Danny giving us one more home game before retirement, just because it would be kinda sad seeing our first hero leave the game without us knowing he played his last home game.

Just a thought, I just saw the other thread and someone else posted the same thing too.

FluSH
09-08-2009, 08:02 PM
maybe competitively but you cannot deny that TFC had a major part in the development of this league now and in the future. Beckham was just a name, but TFC was the beginning of a change for this league.

You're missing a big part in this equation...

Marketing

I'm pretty sure someone out there stated on these forums that the league did not want TFC to sign players like JDG... besides us in Canada... noone in the U.S. knows who JDG is... ignorant yes... but the league is fighting for T.V. rights and marketable jersey's to kids... I would bet serious money that the league would prefer if TFC signed a middle of the road retiring big name as opposed to a young star...

It's all about the $$$

bgnewf
09-08-2009, 08:04 PM
The Dichio thing stinks to high heavens to me.

He is being pushed rather than going on his own terms. There is no way he would go before the end of the season. And they are using the "carrot" of a job with the club as the means to get him to hang 'em up now and save Mo's nuts. I guarantee they said to Danny that he had one shot deal to get the job he wants by retiring now. If he did not he then would get the boot and be released or traded.


Successful clubs treat their players in a far better fashion than this. Mo gets what he wants now but at a tremendous negative impact to the reputation of the club with players. You can have a good facility, class coaching staff (we don't yet of course), outstanding fan support and rich owners. But if you treat solid soldiers like Danny in this way you reap what you sow.

This will haunt us in the years ahead. I guarantee it.

FluSH
09-08-2009, 08:05 PM
oooh yeah and Beckham sold-out stadiums... +50,000 bringing big exposure to soccer (still considered a girls sport) in the U.S.

What the league wants is totally different then what we as a team may want...

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 08:06 PM
The Dichio thing stinks to high heavens to me.

He is being pushed rather than going on his own terms. There is no way he would go before the end of the season. And they are using the "carrot" of a job with the club as the means to get him to hang 'em up now and save Mo's nuts. I guarantee they said to Danny that he had one shot deal to get the job he wants by retiring now. If he did not he then would get the boot and be released or traded.


Successful clubs treat their players in a far better fashion than this. Mo gets what he wants now but at a tremendous negative impact to the reputation of the club with players. You can have a good facility, class coaching staff (we don't yet of course), outstanding fan support and rich owners. But if you treat solid soldiers like Danny in this way you reap what you sow.

This will haunt us in the years ahead. I guarantee it.


^ Careful, there are some on here that don't like speculation about what happened behind the scenes without 100% confirmation from the big man. :rolleyes:

And others don't think mistreating senior players have no repercussions at all!

And yes...it all does stink to high heaven.

FluSH
09-08-2009, 08:08 PM
Successful clubs treat their players in a far better fashion than this. Mo gets what he wants now but at a tremendous negative impact to the reputation of the club with players. You can have a good facility, class coaching staff (we don't yet of course), outstanding fan support and rich owners. But if you treat solid soldiers like Danny in this way you reap what you sow.

This will haunt us in the years ahead. I guarantee it.

Straight up... this organization has shown no loyalty or respect to it's players... you are as good as your last goal or big save... If they can do this to Danny... they can and will do it to anyone...

ArmenJBX
09-08-2009, 08:09 PM
You're missing a big part in this equation...

Marketing

I'm pretty sure someone out there stated on these forums that the league did not want TFC to sign players like JDG... besides us in Canada... noone in the U.S. knows who JDG is... ignorant yes... but the league is fighting for T.V. rights and marketable jersey's to kids... I would bet serious money that the league would prefer if TFC signed a middle of the road retiring big name as opposed to a young star...

It's all about the $$$


oooh yeah and Beckham sold-out stadiums... +50,000 bringing big exposure to soccer (still considered a girls sport) in the U.S.

What the league wants is totally different then what we as a team may want...

Both very good points. I guess for us the Canadian players coming in is kick ass, but most of the US doesn't know about these guys, unfortunately.

Nuvinho
09-08-2009, 08:11 PM
What I hope (more like a dream) will happen tomorrow:

1. Mo is leaving to go back to Scotland
2. Dichio taking over as coach and GM (I know he has no experience)
3. JDG signs
4. Toronto FC won't have a price increase next year
5. I win the lottery

I have a better chance at #5 than #1,2, and 4 happening.....hahaha!!!!

Rudi
09-08-2009, 08:12 PM
oooh yeah and Beckham sold-out stadiums... +50,000 bringing big exposure to soccer (still considered a girls sport) in the U.S.

What the league wants is totally different then what we as a team may want...
Fuck the league.

Before TFC the league was content with quiet stadia filled with disinterested soccer moms and kids jumping on bouncy castles.

ArmenJBX
09-08-2009, 08:13 PM
Our prices are really high compared to elsewhere...

Seems too high to me.

flatpicker
09-08-2009, 08:23 PM
I still can't believe we won't be seeing Dichio on the field again!

It's not that I'm troubled by his retirement, we knew it was coming,
I just figured we would have another chance to see him on the pitch... even if just as a late sub.

olegunnar
09-08-2009, 08:25 PM
I still can't believe we won't be seeing Dichio on the field again!

It's not that I'm troubled by his retirement, we knew it was coming,
I just figured we would have another chance to see him on the pitch... even if just as a late sub.

check out wwtdd.com there's a Mila update that might cheer you up a bit

canadian_bhoy
09-08-2009, 08:31 PM
I'm just curious to see what the ticket prices will be for next season.

Will they still be "aggressively priced" or will they cry poor needing to pay for the DP and try to milk us for all we're worth? I mean, who cares that the team was garbage (again) - the fans will pay, so make them right?

Or

Will they freeze prices to make us all love them, only to tack on a larger increase the following season to make up for the freeze.

Or

Will they just leave the prices as they are, to say thanks to the fans sticking through 3 garbage seasons, 1 screwing of a TFC Legend and hosing us all on the RM game.

I'm not holding my breath on this last one.

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 08:34 PM
^ Good...because we kinda like having you around!

kaos197O
09-08-2009, 08:34 PM
I'm just curious to see what the ticket prices will be for next season.

Will they still be "aggressively priced" or will they cry poor needing to pay for the DP and try to milk us for all we're worth? I mean, who cares that the team was garbage (again) - the fans will pay, so make them right?

Or

Will they freeze prices to make us all love them, only to tack on a larger increase the following season to make up for the freeze.

Or

Will they just leave the prices as they are, to say thanks to the fans sticking through 3 garbage seasons, 1 screwing of a TFC Legend and hosing us all on the RM game.

I'm not holding my breath on this last one.

I pick option #1......they will make us pay for JDG and the North stands and the grass.....and.......

canadian_bhoy
09-08-2009, 08:35 PM
check out wwtdd.com there's a Mila update that might cheer you up a bit

Landing strip Flat's! You're clear for the landing!

Oh and who replaced her nipples with those Staples 'That was easy' buttons? Dang...

mighty_torontofc_2008
09-08-2009, 08:42 PM
Three cheers for DD...one more home game would have been a nice sendoff..Now a testimonial for him next season would be nice..come on MLSE/TFC/Mo pull it off for the man.

FluSH
09-08-2009, 08:43 PM
Fuck the league.

Before TFC the league was content with quiet stadia filled with disinterested soccer moms and kids jumping on bouncy castles.

I'm pretty sure this is still what they want...

canadian_bhoy
09-08-2009, 08:50 PM
Three cheers for DD...one more home game would have been a nice sendoff..Now a testimonial for him next season would be nice..come on MLSE/TFC/Mo pull it off for the man.

MLSE: Testimonial? what's that?
Fans: It's a match that is held to honour a player who has made a significant contribution to the club.
MLSE: So like, an extra match?
Fans: Yeah, it would be a friendly and at the end he would do a lap of honour to clap the fans etc.
MLSE: This sounds great, the fans get to say goodbye to danny and we get to rake in...uh, I mean, it's great that the fans get to say goodbye to danny...Let's do it!
Fans: Traditionally, the proceeds from the match are given to the player that is being honoured as a thank you bonus
MLSE: Oh...yeah, we'll think about it then.

flatpicker
09-08-2009, 08:59 PM
check out wwtdd.com there's a Mila update that might cheer you up a bit


Landing strip Flat's! You're clear for the landing!

Oh and who replaced her nipples with those Staples 'That was easy' buttons? Dang...


life is good!

Beach_Red
09-08-2009, 09:04 PM
^ Careful, there are some on here that don't like speculation about what happened behind the scenes without 100% confirmation from the big man. :rolleyes:

And others don't think mistreating senior players have no repercussions at all!



No, some of us just don't think the players are helpless children - we think they're professionals with their own agents.

Now it's true, we have no idea what really happened so you could be 100% correct about everything. I just can't bring myself to believe Dichio could have such a crap agent who let him take a lousy deal because I like him too much. But that's just emotions and not business talking.

Pigfynn
09-08-2009, 09:12 PM
MLSE: Testimonial? what's that?
Fans: It's a match that is held to honour a player who has made a significant contribution to the club.
MLSE: So like, an extra match?
Fans: Yeah, it would be a friendly and at the end he would do a lap of honour to clap the fans etc.
MLSE: This sounds great, the fans get to say goodbye to danny and we get to rake in...uh, I mean, it's great that the fans get to say goodbye to danny...Let's do it!
Fans: Traditionally, the proceeds from the match are given to the player that is being honoured as a thank you bonus
MLSE: Oh...yeah, we'll think about it then.

:banghead: Sad but true

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 09:14 PM
No, some of us just don't think the players are helpless children - we think they're professionals with their own agents.

Tell that to Greg Sutton whose agent is Mo's best pal Barry Maclean and Sutz STILL got the shaft.

The fact of the matter is that an agent is powerless in these situations. What exactly do you think they can do? Jack squat.

And the players union in MLS is weak. Weaker than watered down coffee. Even the players admit that.

The fact is that our players are up against a huge corporation, experienced in bending players over the barrel. They have very little protection. The fans can help in this regard. To characterize them as helpless children just because we recognize their underdog status when going up against the organization is obtuse.

FluSH
09-08-2009, 09:17 PM
MLSE: Testimonial? what's that?
Fans: It's a match that is held to honour a player who has made a significant contribution to the club.
MLSE: So like, an extra match?
Fans: Yeah, it would be a friendly and at the end he would do a lap of honour to clap the fans etc.
MLSE: This sounds great, the fans get to say goodbye to danny and we get to rake in...uh, I mean, it's great that the fans get to say goodbye to danny...Let's do it!
Fans: Traditionally, the proceeds from the match are given to the player that is being honoured as a thank you bonus
MLSE: Oh...yeah, we'll think about it then.

If they were to do a testimonial... I can only dream...

andyc
09-08-2009, 09:18 PM
Fans: Traditionally, the proceeds from the match are given to the player that is being honoured as a thank you bonus
MLSE: Oh...yeah, we'll think about it then.

MLSE: OK we've had a think... We're proud to announce that we're going ahead with this event and ... wait for it fans you'll like this... TFC will donate 5% of the profits to charity!
Fans: Say what?? 5%??
MLSE: You know like those pink shirts we got the players to wear... Remember we'll be taking all the risk on organizing this event....

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
09-08-2009, 09:39 PM
been thinking it over.....

You gotta feel for danny.......he's had to work his ass off for years to make a living at what he dose best...play footie!

Im sure he knew the end was near....but to go out like this is pure shamefull and disrespect...not only to his supporters...his family and most of all himself!!!

I can guarentee you if he knew this was coming he would of loved to end all by playing his last game at BMO FIELD IN FRONT OF HIS SUPPORTERS AND MOST OF ALL HIS FAMILY! NOT INFRONT OF THE SOCCER MOMS IN COLORADO!

ITS JUST NOT RIGHT! GOODNIGHT!

AL-MO
09-08-2009, 09:46 PM
I am holding out hope that the announcement is he is retiring AFTER a certain game. Not immediately.

Rudi
09-08-2009, 09:48 PM
I'm pretty sure this is still what they want...
I highly doubt it.

TFC and Seattle have shown the league that there is a lot of money to be made by catering to actual soccer supporters. If there's anything the league wants, it's money.

TorontoBlades
09-08-2009, 09:50 PM
been thinking it over.....

You gotta feel for danny.......he's had to work his ass off for years to make a living at what he dose best...play footie!

Im sure he knew the end was near....but to go out like this is pure shamefull and disrespect...not only to his supporters...his family and most of all himself!!!

I can guarentee you if he knew this was coming he would of loved to end all by playing his last game at BMO FIELD IN FRONT OF HIS SUPPORTERS AND MOST OF ALL HIS FAMILY! NOT INFRONT OF THE SOCCER MOMS IN COLORADO!

ITS JUST NOT RIGHT! GOODNIGHT!

Let's not get ahead of ourselves here boys. Firstly, I would assume that DD will get a testimonial, all joking aside, he deserves one and until I hear otherwise I would think he'll still get one - especially in light of the fact that he's still with the club....

Secondly, a dose of reality here 99% of the footballers of the world retire in their 30s (at best) and go on to a life of pretty much nothing....at least DD has been guaranteed a life in football beyond his playing days...that's as big an honour as you can give a player and a lot more than the rest of this current squad will ever get to see.

Rudi
09-08-2009, 09:51 PM
The fact is that our players are up against a huge corporation, experienced in bending players over the barrel.
Are you referring to MLS or MLSE as the corporation "experienced in bending players over the barrel?"

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 09:55 PM
MLS isn't experienced in anything.

MLSE has years of dealing with high priced players and complex contracts. MLS contracts are peanuts compared to the bigger leagues. And the leverage they have over players is much more pronounced as well because the MLS CBA is a joke. Believe me, the players themselves admit it.

Whoop
09-08-2009, 09:57 PM
I would say it's worse in this case Roogsy.

I can't think of any Leafs/Raptors example where MLSE has treated a player like shit.

mighty_torontofc_2008
09-08-2009, 09:57 PM
MLSE: Testimonial? what's that?
Fans: It's a match that is held to honour a player who has made a significant contribution to the club.
MLSE: So like, an extra match?
Fans: Yeah, it would be a friendly and at the end he would do a lap of honour to clap the fans etc.
MLSE: This sounds great, the fans get to say goodbye to danny and we get to rake in...uh, I mean, it's great that the fans get to say goodbye to danny...Let's do it!
Fans: Traditionally, the proceeds from the match are given to the player that is being honoured as a thank you bonus
MLSE: Oh...yeah, we'll think about it then.

Well at least retire his Number...that wont cost them anything:rolleyes:

Kevvv
09-08-2009, 10:01 PM
This ain't hockey - and there's no roof from which to hang the jersey

Rudi
09-08-2009, 10:03 PM
MLS isn't experienced in anything.

MLSE has years of dealing with high priced players and complex contracts. MLS contracts are peanuts compared to the bigger leagues. And the leverage they have over players is much more pronounced as well because the MLS CBA is a joke. Believe me, the players themselves admit it.
Ok, that's what I thought.

And respectfully, that's absurd. MLSE's problem has always been overpaying underachievers. Pretty much the exact opposite of holding players over a barrell.

How does giving Alonzo Mourning $10 million to play for the Miami Heat (and win a championship) constitute MLSE holding its players over a barrell? How does giving Jeff Finger a multi-year large (for his skill set) contract equate with what you just said, man?

I get the love for Danny, I share in that and hate to see the big man go. But if you're going to make arguments about MLSE, at least keep them somewhat within the realm of reality.

MLSE has made far too many average players very rich men. If that's being held over a barrell, I submit myself to be held over one as well. I could use the cash.

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 10:05 PM
I would say it's worse in this case Roogsy.

I can't think of any Leafs/Raptors example where MLSE has treated a player like shit.

Because they can't, although they have definitely tried to impose their agendas without much success. Just look at Dany Heatley, Mats Sundin and others. Their CBA and their union is much too powerful. The MLS players have no such protection. The CBA is very weak and the union is basically under the thumb of the league.

Let's put it this way...all those teams that come through Toronto playing friendlies? Benfica, River, Villa, Madrid...every single player gets paid to play in these friendlies.

Our guys? Not a dime. And they asked! They were refused. That is just one of many examples of TFC players having to submit to the will of the organization.

Rudi
09-08-2009, 10:07 PM
Let's put it this way...all those teams that come through Toronto playing friendlies? Benfica, River, Villa, Madrid...every single player gets paid to play in these friendlies.
Where are you getting this info from?

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 10:09 PM
Ok, that's what I thought.

And respectfully, that's absurd. MLSE's problem has always been overpaying underachievers. Pretty much the exact opposite of holding players over a barrell.

How does giving Alonzo Mourning $10 million to play for the Miami Heat (and win a championship) constitute MLSE holding its players over a barrell? How does giving Jeff Finger a multi-year large (for his skill set) contract equate with what you just said, man?

I get the love for Danny, I share in that and hate to see the big man go. But if you're going to make arguments about MLSE, at least keep them somewhat within the realm of reality.

MLSE has made far too many average players very rich men. If that's being held over a barrell, I submit myself to be held over one as well. I could use the cash.

Overpaying for players is hardly an argument against the expertise and abilities of the club in terms of taking advantage of the system. Would you make the same argument about the Yankees? It's the same situation. They overpay because they can, but when it comes to working within the legal framework of a CBA, the Leafs (and Yankees) are among the best in taking advantage of the system. Especially when you have the league on your side, as is usually the case with these flagship organizations.

Now apply it to the "wild west" of the MLS, where players have very little rights and their CBA is a comic book compared to the CBA of the NBA and the NHL and you have a situation where players have very little help they can resort to when they face the will of the organization.

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 10:10 PM
Where are you getting this info from?

Very reliable sources.

Whoop
09-08-2009, 10:19 PM
This is why this situation pisses me off.

In this case they are treating a player like shit. Instead of doing the right thing.

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 10:23 PM
The CBA is due to expire this season. I hope the union grows some balls and gives the league a fight on behalf of the players. They certainly need it.

Unfortunately, the players union has only been in existance since 2003. I don't get the feeling they are up to the task just yet.

Shakes McQueen
09-08-2009, 10:25 PM
Overpaying for players is hardly an argument against the expertise and abilities of the club in terms of taking advantage of the system. Would you make the same argument about the Yankees? It's the same situation. They overpay because they can, but when it comes to working within the legal framework of a CBA, the Leafs (and Yankees) are among the best in taking advantage of the system. Especially when you have the league on your side, as is usually the case with these flagship organizations.

Now apply it to the "wild west" of the MLS, where players have very little rights and their CBA is a comic book compared to the CBA of the NBA and the NHL and you have a situation where players have very little help they can resort to when they face the will of the organization.

The situation with the Yankees isn't comparable to the Leafs at all. The Yankees operate under no salary cap, so inflated player salaries don't hamstring their ability to sign other players.

They also don't pay inflated salaries to mediocre players, like the Leafs have done in recent history, or waste millions paying for player to play for other teams, like they have done with the Raps in the past.

The Yankees pillage the free agent market every season, picking most of the best players available, and paying whatever it takes to outbid everyone else.

When the Leafs sign a Jeff Finger to an inflated contract, it is detrimental to their ability to sign other players they need. And they have done this several times. Jason Blake is another recent example of the Leafs totally bumbling and failing to sign a player to a sane contract.

When the Yankees spend half a billion dollars in the offseason, their only limiting factor is how much Steinbrenner will spend. And they virtually never buy mediocre players. The modern Maple Leafs have a sad history of overpaying underperformers.

Seriously, name a couple of players signed since the latest NHL CBA, where the Leafs have expertly maneuvered the system to get a favourable deal?

- Scfott

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 10:30 PM
The situation with the Yankees isn't comparable to the Leafs at all. The Yankees operate under no salary cap, so inflated player salaries don't hamstring their ability to sign other players.

Actually they do have a salary cap of a different type. Major League Baseball has a luxury tax.

And a salary cap is irrelevant to the point I was making, which is overpaying has no bearing on the issue of whether a team is experienced in managing the legalities of contracts and CBAs within their respective sports.


They also don't pay inflated salaries to mediocre players, like the Leafs have done in recent history, or waste millions paying for player to play for other teams, like they have done with the Raps in the past.

Surely you jest. The Yankees have single-handedly influenced inflationary pressures on the salaries of players across baseball!

Regardless, what does overpaying for a player have to do with whether they are or are not experienced in dealing with contracts? All it signals to me is their willingness to pay. Contracts have nothing to do with eye for talent or coaching decisions or whatever else has affected TML over the years. My comparison was purely and quite clearly on the "business" side of both organizations.

This is supported with the view across the league that the Leafs are the "Yankees of hockey"....without the championships of course. In fact, only when it comes to Championships is where any difference is really found. Otherwise, the similarities are extensive.

Shakes McQueen
09-08-2009, 10:32 PM
Seriously, name a couple of players signed since the latest NHL CBA, where the Leafs have expertly maneuvered the system to get a favourable deal?

Please answer this Roogsy, haha.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
09-08-2009, 10:36 PM
Actually they do have a salary cap of a different type. Major League Baseball has a luxury tax.

That isn't a cap, it's just a deterrent - a deterrent the Yankees have happily ignored for years.


And a salary cap is irrelevant to the point I was making, which is overpaying has no bearing on the issue of whether a team is experienced in managing the legalities of contracts and CBAs within their respective sports.

But your argument was that the Yankees and MLSE in particular, are more experienced than others. If you just mean they "manage legalities", then technically every pro sports team is just as experienced - because they all do it on a daily basis.



Surely you jest. The Yankees have single-handedly influenced inflationary pressures on the salaries of players across baseball!

You're right, because they will pay whatever it takes to be the top bidder for a player they want, which raises the salary floor for all players. That fact is consistent with what I said.


Regardless, what does overpaying for a player have to do with whether they are or are not experienced in dealing with contracts? All it signals to me is their willingness to pay. Contracts have nothing to do with eye for talent or coaching decisions or whatever else has affected TML over the years. My comparison was purely and quite clearly on the "business" side of both organizations.

Again though, when has MLSE's experience with contracts given them a tangible advantage in a negotiation (over other NHL teams), since the CBA? Name an example or two where the Leafs expertly gamed the CBA rules, to get a deal on a player.

- Scott

Cashcleaner
09-08-2009, 10:37 PM
Oh man, this news just feels so good now. JDG coming to Toronto is good news, but I gotta admit, I'm even more glad to hear the club is doing the right thing with Dichio by giving him a position within the organization.

I'm guessing this all has to do with the recent drama going on between ourselves, the press, Cummins, and the rest of the club. In any case, as long as Danny is taken care of properly and we can put Julian to good use, this is all good news.

I've gotta say though, I don't think JDG will be playing at the calibre a lot of people here are expecting. He's almost certainly going to improve the team, but let's remember the guy is not a dedicated goal-scorer. He IS gonna support our attack like nothing we've ever seen, though, and will be a great play-maker. The point is, he's going to be playing with players who are, frankly, not at the same level of skill and fitness as he's used to in Europe and we shouldn't expect too much out of him.

Again though, the most important point is that Danny is getting treated right by the club. We all sorta figured he'd be offered a coaching position, so it may not be all that surprising to many.

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 10:52 PM
That isn't a cap, it's just a deterrent - a deterrent the Yankees have happily ignored for years.

I was just pointing out the flaw in your argument. The luxury tax is a cap of sorts, a soft cap as some might call it. Your post made it sound like there was no limit. The fact is that the deterrent is very expensive and the Yankees simply have the resources to ignore it. The fact still remains it had no bearing on the point I was making. You made the salary cap somehow relevant to the issue that MLSE has no experience in dealing with complex contracts? Is that really your point? Because that was mine, which begs the question how does your statement refute mine?



But your argument was that the Yankees and MLSE in particular, are more experienced than others. If you just mean they "manage legalities", then technically every pro sports team is just as experienced - because they all do it on a daily basis.

If there is anything I have learned it's that regardless of the length of existance of a team, it has nothing to whether it has an experienced front office. Sometimes when a team changes ownership, completely new front office staff come in and many times they are inexperienced. That happened with the Argos with the most recent ownership group. I was speaking to the CFO a while back and he told me it took them years to get the hang of things around the league. You don't think that happens elsewhere in other leagues and other sports? The fact is that MLSE is probably one of the most experienced sports organizations in North America. Are you refuting that point? And if that is the case, how much chance do you think a small-fry player in a small-fry league like MLS would have going up against a billion dollar conglomerate?


You're right, because they will pay whatever it takes to be the top bidder for a player they want, which raises the salary floor for all players. That fact is consistent with what I said.

I don't believe it's consistent at all. You said: The situation with the Yankees isn't comparable to the Leafs at all. The Yankees operate under no salary cap, so inflated player salaries don't hamstring their ability to sign other players.

They also don't pay inflated salaries to mediocre players, like the Leafs have done in recent history, or waste millions paying for player to play for other teams, like they have done with the Raps in the past.

Your statement is inconsistent. You essentially admit that the Yankees produce an inflationary effect on salaries which by DEFINITION means mediocre players get overpaid, but just because they can afford it it isn't inflationary? That doesn't make any sense.


Again though, when has MLSE's experience with contracts given them a tangible advantage in a negotiation (over other NHL teams), since the CBA? Name an example or two where the Leafs expertly gamed the CBA rules, to get a deal on a player.

- Scott

That's not even close to what I was saying. Perhaps you should re-read my posts and then examine your own. Because my point was, has been, and continues to be that they are experienced in working within the legalities of CBAs and the legalities of running a sports team, and how much advantage would a player have (since Beach Red claimed that Danny is no "helpess child" and has the help of an agent), in an environment where the CBA provides no protection for the player and the agent has no say, how much protection does a player have if the organization decides they want to screw him? I made a point that the FANS needed to step up and be heard on the Danny issue because he had little support elsewhere. He wasn't going to get it from an agent and he wasn't going to get it from the MLS players CBA or union. If they chose to, they could have hosed Danny and sent him packing heartlessly. Are you saying this is not true? That Danny had other recourses? Do you have evidence to this effect?

How you and Rudi turned it into an issue of overpaying for mediocre players I have no idea. I am still trying to figure that one out.

Kevvv
09-08-2009, 10:57 PM
The union won't have much power as long as teams like NE, Dallas, SJ, and NY struggle to find 10,000 people willing to buy a ticket. And we've all seen the TV ratings - equestrian draws better. Darts might as well. Despite the fact TFC, Seattle, and maybe a few other teams can make a buck in this league, the league isn't strong enough or rich enough right now. Not that that's an excuse to pay some of these kids under $20K or whatever, but MLS cannot be compared to NBA, NHL, or MLB at this point.

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 11:01 PM
The union won't have much power as long as teams like NE, Dallas, SJ, and NY struggle to find 10,000 people willing to buy a ticket. And we've all seen the TV ratings - equestrian draws better. Darts might as well. Despite the fact TFC, Seattle, and maybe a few other teams can make a buck in this league, the league isn't strong enough or rich enough right now. Not that that's an excuse to pay some of these kids under $20K or whatever, but MLS cannot be compared to NBA, NHL, or MLB at this point.

That is sort of my point. In MLS, players have very little protection. Of all the professional sports leagues, I don't think I have seen a union or a CBA with less power on behalf of the players.

So what do you think the chances are when a player goes up against a corporation that has lawyers where the ONLY thing they do is figure out advantages on behalf of the organization? Would you want to find yourself in that position of facing off against them? Danny has.

I would love to hear from anyone here who would admit that they wouldn't be frightened at the thought of going up against MLSE lawyers.

Shakes McQueen
09-08-2009, 11:18 PM
I was just pointing out the flaw in your argument. The luxury tax is a cap of sorts, a soft cap as some might call it. Your post made it sound like there was no limit. The fact is that the deterrent is very expensive and the Yankees simply have the resources to ignore it. The fact still remains it had no bearing on the point I was making. You made the salary cap somehow relevant to the issue that MLSE has no experience in dealing with complex contracts? Is that really your point? Because that was mine, which begs the question how does your statement refute mine?

My post made it sound like there's no limit, because there is no limit. There's a deterrent, that the Yankees ignore.


If there is anything I have learned it's that regardless of the length of existance of a team, it has nothing to whether it has an experienced front office. Sometimes when a team changes ownership, completely new front office staff come in and many times they are inexperienced. That happened with the Argos with the most recent ownership group. I was speaking to the CFO a while back and he told me it took them years to get the hang of things around the league. You don't think that happens elsewhere in other leagues and other sports? The fact is that MLSE is probably one of the most experienced sports organizations in North America. Are you refuting that point? And if that is the case, how much chance do you think a small-fry player in a small-fry league like MLS would have going up against a billion dollar conglomerate?

The thing is, MLSE have owned the Leafs for less time than many other NHL owners have owned their teams. Modern MLSE didn't own the team until the mid 1990's, which is pretty average. And the Raps? They are still considered a young team among the NBA, let alone the ownership.

I can't refute anecdotal conversations you've had with unnamed CFO's, but I can pretty definitively state that MLSE are relatively young in the pro franchise ownership game. Even among MLS owners, they are in good company with owners like the Kraft family, or the Anschutz Entertainment Group.


I don't believe it's consistent at all. You said: The situation with the Yankees isn't comparable to the Leafs at all. The Yankees operate under no salary cap, so inflated player salaries don't hamstring their ability to sign other players.

They also don't pay inflated salaries to mediocre players, like the Leafs have done in recent history, or waste millions paying for player to play for other teams, like they have done with the Raps in the past.

Your statement is inconsistent. You essentially admit that the Yankees produce an inflationary effect on salaries which by DEFINITION means mediocre players get overpaid, but just because they can afford it it isn't inflationary? That doesn't make any sense.

I said the Yankees don't overpay for mediocre players - I didn't say nobody overpays for mediocre players. One look at Vernon Wells would shoot that statement down right quick.

So yes, my statements were 100% consistent.


That's not even close to what I was saying. Perhaps you should re-read my posts and then examine your own. Because my point was, has been, and continues to be that they are experienced in working within the legalities of CBAs and the legalities of running a sports team, and how much advantage would a player have (since Beach Red claimed that Danny is no "helpess child" and has the help of an agent), in an environment where the CBA provides no protection for the player and the agent has no say, how much protection does a player have if the organization decides they want to screw him? I made a point that the FANS needed to step up and be heard on the Danny issue because he had little support elsewhere. He wasn't going to get it from an agent and he wasn't going to get it from the MLS players CBA or union. If they chose to, they could have hosed Danny and sent him packing heartlessly. Are you saying this is not true? That Danny had other recourses? Do you have evidence to this effect?

Your ultimate point might have been the above, but I was specifically refuting the accuracy of this statement:

"...the Leafs (and Yankees) are among the best in taking advantage of the system."

I even opened the first sentence in my original post by specifically taking issue with your Yankees analogy.

I agree with your assertion that public outcry probably helped Danny, but I disagree with the idea that he and his agent would be helpless in the face of the mighty empire, and their experience dealing with contracts. The amount of money the Leafs and Raps are paying to players NOT to play for the Leafs and Raps, is a pretty obvious testament to how little MLSE's "experience", and ability to manipulate contract rules, has gotten them.

- Scott

jloome
09-08-2009, 11:23 PM
A nice explanation Jeremy, but the inside info says that is not exactly accurate.

However, since the "inside info" has presented you absolutely no on-the-record evidence of any sort, and since the inside info has been wrong repeatedly before, I'd suggest not using the word "but", but maybe "meanwhile" instead. And the word "alleged" before "inside info."

Beach_Red
09-08-2009, 11:33 PM
Tell that to Greg Sutton whose agent is Mo's best pal Barry Maclean and Sutz STILL got the shaft.

The fact of the matter is that an agent is powerless in these situations. What exactly do you think they can do? Jack squat.

And the players union in MLS is weak. Weaker than watered down coffee. Even the players admit that.

The fact is that our players are up against a huge corporation, experienced in bending players over the barrel. They have very little protection. The fans can help in this regard. To characterize them as helpless children just because we recognize their underdog status when going up against the organization is obtuse.


Thanks for bringng up Sutton, that's a good example. Clearly Dichio (and his agent) played this a lot better. They got out the story that there was interest in Dichio from USL teams, this caused a freak-out among supporters and gave them some bargaining position when TFC needed to dump salary.

Instead of a, "Wait till the end of the season and we'll see," it looks like Dichio has managed to get himself (and his family) ome security. I say good for him. Yes, he had to force the team to do the right thing. I've had to force every boss I've ever had to do the right thing.

And every time the Leafs bow to fan pressure and bring back someone like Wendell Clark and Doug Gilmour and overpay guys like Tie Domi they show themselves to be pretty far from master negotiators. They appease the fans far too much. (this likely won't be a problem under Burke ;)).

We all want the team we're supporters of to have "heart" but in this, like pretty much every other business, it's the heartless bastards who win more often.

Roogsy
09-08-2009, 11:52 PM
My post made it sound like there's no limit, because there is no limit. There's a deterrent, that the Yankees ignore.

Splitting hairs Scott. You quite obviously ignored or forgot the fact that there is a limit, hard cap or not.


The thing is, MLSE have owned the Leafs for less time than many other NHL owners have owned their teams. Modern MLSE didn't own the team until the mid 1990's, which is pretty average. And the Raps? They are still considered a young team among the NBA, let alone the ownership.

A common mistake that has been corrected many times on this board. Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment is merely the renaming of Maple Leaf Gardens Ltd, which was established in 1931. Thes majority shareholder of that entity may have changed over the years (Ballard, Stavros, Teachers) but the legal owner of the Toronto Maple Leafs has not changed since 1931.

As for the Raptors, the Colangelo family has been involved with Basketball management since the 1960s. Since Jerry studied under his father in Phoenix for years and has brought with him an extensive group of experienced executives, they are in fact considered one of the premier front offices in the league. Again, another inaccurate fact.


I can't refute anecdotal conversations you've had with unnamed CFO's, but I can pretty definitively state that MLSE are relatively young in the pro franchise ownership game. Even among MLS owners, they are in good company with owners like the Kraft family, or the Anschutz Entertainment Group.

Considering the facts I've just given you, I'd have to disagree completely. And the CFO is not unnamed, it's Daniel Steinfeld, current CFO of the Argos. All you had to do is ask. In my opinion, there are very few organizations in North America that are as experienced as MLSE. AEG and Kraft are very experienced organizations, but I would have to say that most people would probably say that MLSE still has more experience. Kraft only began owning teams in the 90s. AEG is probably the only company that can rival MLSE in this particular conversation but even then, their entertainment division is relatively young comparitively speaking although in recent years has become absolutely massive. But AEG's parent company actually began in oil or something in the 60s.


I said the Yankees don't overpay for mediocre players - I didn't say nobody overpays for mediocre players. One look at Vernon Wells would shoot that statement down right quick.

So yes, my statements were 100% consistent.

I still disagree. Like I said before, by creating an inflationary environment, they are by definition overpaying for mediocre players, unless of course you are claiming that the Yankees have no mediocre players? Is their entire roster all stars?


Your ultimate point might have been the above, but I was specifically refuting the accuracy of this statement:

"...the Leafs (and Yankees) are among the best in taking advantage of the system."

I even opened the first sentence in my original post by specifically taking issue with your Yankees analogy.

And you used an incomplete thought in doing so? That whole cap issue is completely irrelevant and you totally left out a major consideration in the luxury tax issue. And your claim that the Yankees have never overpaid for a player is ridiculous in my mind. If anything, they are largely to blame for the overinflated salaries of MLB players in this day and age.

Not to mention, refuting one statement that was part of a larger opinion is kind of strange. Especially when you are refuting something that isn't the major point of the statement to begin with? It's selective debating. A more concise and cohesive effort would have been to take the entire point as a whole and weigh it's accuracy. Instead, you ignored it?


I agree with your assertion that public outcry probably helped Danny, but I disagree with the idea that he and his agent would be helpless in the face of the mighty empire, and their experience dealing with contracts. The amount of money the Leafs and Raps are paying to players NOT to play for the Leafs and Raps, is a pretty obvious testament to how little MLSE's "experience", and ability to manipulate contract rules, has gotten them.

You have two different claims here. One...how exactly would Danny's agent help him? He has no leverage. The only thing Danny's agent could do is make propositions in the hope that the team would accept. But the leverage is completely on the side of the organization.

As for MLSE, why are the large contracts a testament to how little MLSE has "experience"? Like the Yankees (and here is exactly where I feel the analogy fits quite well) it is solely a function of "willingness to pay". Like other teams in the leagues that take on large contracts with only a season left to play, teams take on contracts like that because they want the cap flexibility going forward beyond the current year. Hence the buyout is simply a cheaper way of ending that contract sooner. It's a strategy. One where they have weighed the advantages. It doesn't contradict my point, it actually reinforces it. The choice is a reflection of their cost-benefit analysis and what they feel is best going forward. Just because the amount of money paid is huge doesn't indicate the team doesn't know what it's doing. It's actually quite common in the NBA in particular. The example that comes to mind is Jermaine O'Neal.

Roogsy
09-09-2009, 12:08 AM
Thanks for bringng up Sutton, that's a good example. Clearly Dichio (and his agent) played this a lot better. They got out the story that there was interest in Dichio from USL teams, this caused a freak-out among supporters and gave them some bargaining position when TFC needed to dump salary.

Instead of a, "Wait till the end of the season and we'll see," it looks like Dichio has managed to get himself (and his family) ome security. I say good for him. Yes, he had to force the team to do the right thing. I've had to force every boss I've ever had to do the right thing.

And every time the Leafs bow to fan pressure and bring back someone like Wendell Clark and Doug Gilmour and overpay guys like Tie Domi they show themselves to be pretty far from master negotiators. They appease the fans far too much. (this likely won't be a problem under Burke ;)).

We all want the team we're supporters of to have "heart" but in this, like pretty much every other business, it's the heartless bastards who win more often.


You've made the same mistake as Scott with regards to my statement.

That MLSE doesn't make poor decisions is not what I am arguing. My argument is essentially that they have a stable of lawyers that will rip you a new one if you challenge them on legalities and contracts.

That stupid GM's decided to bring in past their prime players is not a function of their legal abilities, it's a function of their lack of good sports management. That they submitted to the will of the fans is something that works in our favour and actually supporters my point that the pressure WE exerted as fans likely helped Danny. You are the one that made the statement that Danny doesn't need it because he's not a helpeless child. Your own statement regarding MLSE may in fact prove otherwise in that they likely responded to the fan pressure as a result of the rumours.

I firmly believe he needed that fan support. Danny had no leverage. None. Agent or not. He had a contract to the end of this year and they could have cut him loose end of story. The fact that the fans wanted him treated properly likely influenced the end result of Danny likely staying on in some capacity.

The USL story probably didn't affect the team as much as it affected us and hence us fans reacted even more enthusiastically about the need for the team to act on behalf of Danny. So in that regard, they did a good job of influencing OUR reaction...but I doubt TFC's front office were shaking in their boots at the thought of losing Danny to the Aztecs or something.

But let me ask you a question...if the supporters didn't freak out...would Danny have received as good a deal agent or not? I doubt it. Therefore, had supporters waited until everything was said and done to finally respond or react (like it seems you suggest we should have done)...how exactly would that have helped Danny in any way?

Shakes McQueen
09-09-2009, 12:46 AM
Splitting hairs Scott. You quite obviously ignored or forgot the fact that there is a limit, hard cap or not.

I obviously ignored it? Based on what? And it isn't a limit, it's a deterrent, that the Yankees (the team you specifically named) ignore with impunity every year.


A common mistake that has been corrected many times on this board. Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment is merely the renaming of Maple Leaf Gardens Ltd, which was established in 1931. Thes majority shareholder of that entity may have changed over the years (Ballard, Stavros, Teachers) but the legal owner of the Toronto Maple Leafs has not changed since 1931.

You'll note I said "modern MLSE", as I'm aware MLSE are technically a manifestation of MLGL. But like you said, the majority stakeholders have changed hands several times, the management has changed several times, the team GM has changed several times, etc. etc. etc.


As for the Raptors, the Colangelo family has been involved with Basketball management since the 1960s. Since Jerry studied under his father in Phoenix for years and has brought with him an extensive group of experienced executives, they are in fact considered one of the premier front offices in the league. Again, another inaccurate fact.

Many NHL and NBA teams have GM with as much experience as Bryan Colangelo. And it's impossible for me to refute a statement like "they are in fact considered one of the premier front offices in the league."


Considering the facts I've just given you, I'd have to disagree completely.

You aren't giving me facts - aside from the Colangelo family history and MLGL-MLSE connection, you're using sweeping, unverifiable rhetoric like "most people would probably say", "the fact is that...", and "they are in fact considered", without explaining the origins of this conventional wisdom you keep citing.


In my opinion, there are very few organizations in North America that are as experienced as MLSE. AEG and Kraft are very experienced organizations, but I would have to say that most people would probably say that MLSE still has more experience.

Why would most people probably say that?


Kraft only began owning teams in the 90s.

Much like the current owners of MLSE.


AEG is probably the only company that can rival MLSE in this particular conversation but even then, their entertainment division is relatively young comparitively speaking although in recent years has become absolutely massive. But AEG's parent company actually began in oil or something in the 60s.

But again, the number of years the company has been technically incorporated, means nothing for "experience", if the same owners and managers haven't been running the company that entire time.

As for AEG - AEG is the worlds largest owner of sports franchises and venues. MLSE doesn't hold a candle to them.


I still disagree. Like I said before, by creating an inflationary environment, they are by definition overpaying for mediocre players, unless of course you are claiming that the Yankees have no mediocre players? Is their entire roster all stars?

I didn't say they were all all-stars - you're reframing my point. I said they don't overpay for mediocre players, and yes, I will stand by that. That doesn't by definition mean they are all all-stars.

And no, the fact that the Yankees help create salary inflation, in no way is equivalent to them overpaying for mediocre players. I don't even understand the logic there.


And you used an incomplete thought in doing so? That whole cap issue is completely irrelevant and you totally left out a major consideration in the luxury tax issue.

It isn't a major consideration, if the Yankees ignore it every season.


And your claim that the Yankees have never overpaid for a player is ridiculous in my mind. If anything, they are largely to blame for the overinflated salaries of MLB players in this day and age.

And again, I didn't say the Yankees have never overpaid for a player - I said they don't overpay for MEDIOCRE PLAYERS. And yes, I completely agree they are largely responsible for salaries in MLB creeping upward at an alarming rate - I said as much earlier.


You have two different claims here. One...how exactly would Danny's agent help him? He has no leverage. The only thing Danny's agent could do is make propositions in the hope that the team would accept. But the leverage is completely on the side of the player.

Danny had a guaranteed contract, and in no way had to accept retirement. He could have decided to sit on the bench, and collect his money. But he didn't - he did what would help the club the most. That has nothing to do with MLSE's contractual expertise.

I'm sure MLSE offering him the coaching job was probably part of the negotiation for him retiring early - and again, that isn't negotiation expertise, it's just a classic quid pro quo. DD got some financial security, and a job with the club he loves, in return for helping the club sign their first DP. Sounds like leverage to me.


As for MLSE, why are the large contracts a testament to how little MLSE has "experience"? Like the Yankees (and here is exactly where I feel the analogy fits quite well) it is solely a function of "willingness to pay". Like other teams in the leagues that take on large contracts with only a season left to play, teams take on contracts like that because they want the cap flexibility going forward beyond the current year. Hence the buyout is simply a cheaper way of ending that contract sooner. It's a strategy. One where they have weighed the advantages. It doesn't contradict my point, it actually reinforces it. The choice is a reflection of their cost-benefit analysis and what they feel is best going forward. Just because the amount of money paid is huge doesn't indicate the team doesn't know what it's doing. It's actually quite common in the NBA in particular.

I'm aware of the philosophy behind a contract buyout - but again, what "expertise" is needed to buyout a contract, or waive a player? Are MLSE the only managers to use these tools?

Anyway, this is getting way too pedantic and hair-splitting for my liking, and it's always moving further and further away from the point of this thread, so I'm done.

Danny retired a few games early, in one last gesture to help this club, and he's great for it. We should honour him properly, thank him for what he has done here, and support him in this new role within TFC. That is all that matters.

I somewhat enjoy endlessly arguing rhetorical technicalities Roogsy, but we should probably do this somewhere else, haha. Plus, we've got that early flight to the Caribbean in the morning. :)

- Scott

Redcoe15
09-09-2009, 01:14 AM
There goes my dream of seeing Danny D. score the winning goal in extra time to lead Toronto to its first MLS Cup. *sigh*. At least he'll stay with the club in a productive roll. Maybe replace Cummins as the next head coach? I just hope JDG becomes the impact player for TFC.

Roogsy
09-09-2009, 02:17 AM
I obviously ignored it? Based on what? And it isn't a limit, it's a deterrent, that the Yankees (the team you specifically named) ignore with impunity every year.

Your exact statement was that the two are not comparable at all. "Comparable" does not require exact likeness, only similarities. If a hard salary cap and a luxury tax are not similar although not exactly the same, I'd have to wonder what is similar in your mind?


You'll note I said "modern MLSE", as I'm aware MLSE are technically a manifestation of MLGL. But like you said, the majority stakeholders have changed hands several times, the management has changed several times, the team GM has changed several times, etc. etc. etc.

Then by your definition, what would be an experienced front office because most if not all organizations have undergone similar changes to that of MLSE throughout the years, but few have remained in the same legal ownership like MLSE. If MLSE is not experienced, who is?


Many NHL and NBA teams have GM with as much experience as Bryan Colangelo. And it's impossible for me to refute a statement like "they are in fact considered one of the premier front offices in the league."

Considering Bryan Colangelo has won NBA executive of the year twice and Wayne Embry is considered one of the best executives ever, I'd say that makes for a pretty good case. Add to that one of the most respected minds in world basketball with Maurizio Gherardini and how much more evidence do you want? Do I really have to provide links to opinions on all of these executives just so it doens't become "rhetorical"?


You aren't giving me facts - aside from the Colangelo family history and MLGL-MLSE connection, you're using sweeping, unverifiable rhetoric like "most people would probably say", "the fact is that...", and "they are in fact considered", without explaining the origins of this conventional wisdom you keep citing.

I give you facts and your rationalize them away. You say MLSE is inexperienced and you say you are referring to "modern" MLSE (a cop-out in my opinion, MLSE has not undergone any changes that most other organizations have not seen either). I tell you the Raptors front office is experienced and respected and you claim it's a sweeping generalization. It's unbelievable how you have provided not a single shred of facts but I keep having to go deeper and deeper, eventually having to provide you with the physical awards presented to Colangelo?


But again, the number of years the company has been technically incorporated, means nothing for "experience", if the same owners and managers haven't been running the company that entire time.

Seriously? This is a complete stretch. By this definition, I can barely think of any organization, sports or otherwise that would meet your standard of "experience".


As for AEG - AEG is the worlds largest owner of sports franchises and venues. MLSE doesn't hold a candle to them.

If MLSE doesn't, who does? MLSE is one of the largest sports and entertainment companies in North America, but yes, not THE biggest. You're making it sound like MLSE is small fry!

And for the record, I looked it up. AEG entered the sports arena in 1995 with the purchase of the Los Angeles Kings and then in 1998 with a partial interest in the Lakers. While they are bigger...to say they have more experience than MLSE, even the "modern" MLSE may be a stretch. AEG is huge because of all the oil and and mineral money the company made since the 60s. Bigger does not equal more experienced.


I didn't say they were all all-stars - you're reframing my point. I said they don't overpay for mediocre players, and yes, I will stand by that. That doesn't by definition mean they are all all-stars.

And no, the fact that the Yankees help create salary inflation, in no way is equivalent to them overpaying for mediocre players. I don't even understand the logic there.

How is that a difficult point to understand? The Yankees created inflation by overpaying players period, regardless of talent. It's a broad effect. So unless every signing wound up being an all star, any large contract for an average player fits the defintion you deny! Like Jose Contreras, 4 years, $32mill, his first year he had a an ERA of over 22!!! Because the Red Sox landed Dice-K, they went out and paid $26mill just to speak to Igawa and then awarded him a 5 year, $20mill contract...for a total worth of $46mill!!! Another bum pitcher. And the worst signing in the last few years, Pavano, 4 years, $10mill for a guy who has never been a good pitcher, had one decent year and the Yankees snatched him up only to regret it. In the meantime, because of their free agent activity, the bar was raised everywhere else and on top of their own bum signings, teams everywhere were having to pay up for average talent of their own. The Yankees don't sign mediocre talent? I'd have to question whether you have been paying attention to the Yankees at all.


And again, I didn't say the Yankees have never overpaid for a player - I said they don't overpay for MEDIOCRE PLAYERS. And yes, I completely agree they are largely responsible for salaries in MLB creeping upward at an alarming rate - I said as much earlier.

See my post above. I have no idea how much proof you actually need but at this point I'd have to question if any proof is enough.


Danny had a guaranteed contract, and in no way had to accept retirement. He could have decided to sit on the bench, and collect his money. But he didn't - he did what would help the club the most. That has nothing to do with MLSE's contractual expertise.

I'm sure MLSE offering him the coaching job was probably part of the negotiation for him retiring early - and again, that isn't negotiation expertise, it's just a classic quid pro quo. DD got some financial security, and a job with the club he loves, in return for helping the club sign their first DP. Sounds like leverage to me.

The only leverage Danny had was the ability to clear room for the team. Danny always wanted to coach after this year was done and was expecting to be able to do so in Toronto. That was well known everywhere. If TFC told him that in no way would he get any work from them after he retired unless he retired to clear room, would you be ok with that? Sounds to me like they had greater leverage. What's his agent going to do then? Danny was likely working under the assumption or perhaps even a verbal assurance that this would be discussed after he retired as a player. My guess is he wanted to stay here, otherwise why go through the exercise of becoming a Canadian resident? To then be blindsided with early retirement to make room for a new player, facing the possibility of moving his family again and ending his career without even the chance to play a final home game in front of the fans? That sticks in my throat. So the little leverage he had was helped by the fans....which was my ultimate point in the first place. Why we had to go on this entire tangent about the Yankees because you didn't like the comparison between MLSE and the Yankees I will probably never understand. The fundamental truth is that Danny found himself alone having to defend his interests against a large self-interested corporation without much protection and he needed the fans to speak up and thankfully we did. What bothers me is those people that wanted to wait until all the facts were out. That is closing the barn door after the horses have escaped. Had that happened and fans said nothing in support of Danny, he truly would have been left alone to fend for himself. I suppose you can agree with Beach Red that he is not "helpless" but to this point I have not seen any evidence of how exactly an agent or anyone else would have been able to protect him. I wouldn't want to have been in his position for all the chocolate in Switzerland.


I'm aware of the philosophy behind a contract buyout - but again, what "expertise" is needed to buyout a contract, or waive a player? Are MLSE the only managers to use these tools?

My point is MLSE properties use them often and tactically.


Danny retired a few games early, in one last gesture to help this club, and he's great for it. We should honour him properly, thank him for what he has done here, and support him in this new role within TFC. That is all that matters.

I agree while adding that some of us fans have taken note of how the team has behaved in this regard. Maybe other fans don't care as much, but some of us do. And the ultimate point I have been trying to make in the last few posts of this thread is that the fan action and outrage on Danny's behalf was necessary BEFORE all the facts are known. Had there been no fan uproar, it is my opinion that Danny would have had less leverage with the team and they could have really given him the shaft. I have yet to see anything to this point that would convince me otherwise.

Cashcleaner
09-09-2009, 02:40 AM
There goes my dream of seeing Danny D. score the winning goal in extra time to lead Toronto to its first MLS Cup. *sigh*. At least he'll stay with the club in a productive roll. Maybe replace Cummins as the next head coach? I just hope JDG becomes the impact player for TFC.

He probably won't replace Cummins, but maybe one of his predecessors. I think the rumour has it that he'll be working with the Academy first, though for how long, who really knows?

Shakes McQueen
09-09-2009, 02:48 AM
He probably won't replace Cummins, but maybe one of his predecessors. I think the rumour has it that he'll be working with the Academy first, though for how long, who really knows?

Ideally, I'd like to see Dichio start off in an assistant's role in a place like the Academy, with a long-term goal of cultivating him into TFC's eventual coach.

I think any outcry to make him coach now, is probably more motivated by an emotional response, than a rational one. He doesn't have nearly enough experience for the job yet, to do it well.

And unless we want to avoid some awkward situation where he gets thrust into the job, does poorly, and we have to fire him - I'd say it's better to give him time to learn, and make sure he's up to the job, so he can keep it long term, and we can avoid another Cummins.

- Scott

Mojo
09-09-2009, 05:35 AM
Number 9 retires on 09/09/09.

Hmmm.

jloome
09-09-2009, 06:26 AM
Number 9 retires on 09/09/09.

Hmmm.

Plus, isn't his wife about to have her third child? Pregnant threes!

Brooker
09-09-2009, 06:38 AM
http://paxarcana.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/kid_crying.jpg

Beach_Red
09-09-2009, 07:30 AM
But let me ask you a question...if the supporters didn't freak out...would Danny have received as good a deal agent or not? I doubt it. Therefore, had supporters waited until everything was said and done to finally respond or react (like it seems you suggest we should have done)...how exactly would that have helped Danny in any way?

No, I've never had any opinion on how the fans should act, or react. I was just pointing out that negotiations are a two-way street and not every player just rolls over and takes. I say good on Dichio for managing his exit properly and getting something of what he wants.

But on the matter of fan reaction, I just feel in this city, in other sports at least, fans have often been appeased in ways that have not helped the teams. I usually give the examples of bringing back "fan favourites" who were well passed usefulness and running good players out of town. And I don't want to see it happen with TFC.

Maybe I feel this way because I grew up in Montreal with Sam Pollack running the Canadiens and he didn't care at all what the fans said. He just gave them Stanley Cups. Of course, it meant watching Guy Lafleur come into the Forum in a Nordiques uniform and watching Serge Savard finish his career in Winnipeg and so on. That's sports, that's business. Fans can be far too sentimental to build winning teams.

v00d00daddy
09-09-2009, 07:31 AM
Ideally, I'd like to see Dichio start off in an assistant's role in a place like the Academy, with a long-term goal of cultivating him into TFC's eventual coach.

I think any outcry to make him coach now, is probably more motivated by an emotional response, than a rational one. He doesn't have nearly enough experience for the job yet, to do it well.

And unless we want to avoid some awkward situation where he gets thrust into the job, does poorly, and we have to fire him - I'd say it's better to give him time to learn, and make sure he's up to the job, so he can keep it long term, and we can avoid another Cummins.

- Scott

You know what worries me about DD being the coach one day for TFC?

Let's assume that DD becomes an asst. With the academy and does very well for 3-4 years. Then what?

He moves up to senior team as what? An asst?
Won't this all depend on who the coach is at the time? Wha if we actually have a really good coach, with a very defined idea of what he wants? What If DD, a VERY inexperienced coach (which is what he'll be) isn't part of those plans?

Basically what I'm saying is that I really hope that TFC picks up a really good coach in the next couple of years. A coach who is well rounded, gets the most out of his players, and is strong tactically.

I just don't see an ex-player turned coach being anything more than an academy asst for this team and that sucks for DD.

I would have much preffered that he play (and by play I mean start) the rest of this season and the retire with dignity. Hopefully after a miracle run to make the playoffs.

This business about him being a coach in the organization is just to distract the fans. DD is not a coach and won't be for a very long time. The most significant way he could have helped this team would have been by scoring goals and now that chance is gone.

It's a shame.

Shaughno
09-09-2009, 07:36 AM
Wholly fucking novels! Who has the time to write that shit at 2-3am?!?!?

Get a life retards. :lol:

Pigfynn
09-09-2009, 07:51 AM
hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha

Shaughno
09-09-2009, 07:52 AM
Oh and just so nobody gets upset (i know there are a lot of babies in here), my last post was aimed directly at Roogsy. :D

TFC Cityboy
09-09-2009, 08:24 AM
You know what worries me about DD being the coach one day for TFC?

Let's assume that DD becomes an asst. With the academy and does very well for 3-4 years. Then what?

He moves up to senior team as what? An asst?
Won't this all depend on who the coach is at the time? Wha if we actually have a really good coach, with a very defined idea of what he wants? What If DD, a VERY inexperienced coach (which is what he'll be) isn't part of those plans?

Basically what I'm saying is that I really hope that TFC picks up a really good coach in the next couple of years. A coach who is well rounded, gets the most out of his players, and is strong tactically.

I just don't see an ex-player turned coach being anything more than an academy asst for this team and that sucks for DD.

I would have much preffered that he play (and by play I mean start) the rest of this season and the retire with dignity. Hopefully after a miracle run to make the playoffs.

This business about him being a coach in the organization is just to distract the fans. DD is not a coach and won't be for a very long time. The most significant way he could have helped this team would have been by scoring goals and now that chance is gone.

It's a shame.

Danny has long stated his aim of remaining at TFC beyond his playing career and from what I read yesterday, has all the necessary top-class coaching badges.

You make good points otherwise, but I just wanted to make sure people know that the Legend is indeed qualified to slot straight into a coaching role within the club.
I would have loved there to be an opportunity to cheer just one more Dichio goal in front of the South stand tho'...

Oldtimer
09-09-2009, 08:28 AM
It seemed obvious that the club was prepping Danny to be coach of the Academy. So... why didn't they make him an offer earlier? It's called leverage. Most emploers try to get their employees for as cheap as possible. MLSE probably wanted DD to take a salary cut. So to put pressure on him, they don't make him an offer right away.

DD's response? Look elsewhere for coaching opportunities. Then came the farce of "so you want to play? Ha! We'll bench you" to put pressure on him. Probably the end game was to have him retire without having anything lined up, then they would make him a lowball offer, knowing he was at their mercy.

However, the bru-ha-ha caused by fans, supporters, and media has made them back off. That, combined with the pressure to get the JDG deal done.

We know Danny wants to move into coaching, and we know it's been hard on him to play, so it's not entirely a bad thing to retire a little early. However, I also think that our response and the anger at Danny getting a raw deal has made them reconsider and give him the kind of deal that he deserves.

jabbronies
09-09-2009, 08:32 AM
You know what worries me about DD being the coach one day for TFC?

Let's assume that DD becomes an asst. With the academy and does very well for 3-4 years. Then what?

He moves up to senior team as what? An asst?
Won't this all depend on who the coach is at the time? Wha if we actually have a really good coach, with a very defined idea of what he wants? What If DD, a VERY inexperienced coach (which is what he'll be) isn't part of those plans?

Basically what I'm saying is that I really hope that TFC picks up a really good coach in the next couple of years. A coach who is well rounded, gets the most out of his players, and is strong tactically.

I just don't see an ex-player turned coach being anything more than an academy asst for this team and that sucks for DD.

I would have much preffered that he play (and by play I mean start) the rest of this season and the retire with dignity. Hopefully after a miracle run to make the playoffs.

This business about him being a coach in the organization is just to distract the fans. DD is not a coach and won't be for a very long time. The most significant way he could have helped this team would have been by scoring goals and now that chance is gone.

It's a shame.

I had the same concerns, but, Danny is known to be a good mentor to the younger players, even back in the UK. I'm sure he'll have no problem transfering those skills to a coaching role.

Chevy
09-09-2009, 08:33 AM
Don't forget, DD is only 34. In coaching terms that is very young.

Flipityflu
09-09-2009, 08:36 AM
best of luck Danny. Thanks for your continuing service.

Roogsy
09-09-2009, 08:39 AM
Wholly fucking novels! Who has the time to write that shit at 2-3am?!?!?

Get a life retards. :lol:

I make money 24/7 baby. Asian markets were open.


Oh and just so nobody gets upset (i know there are a lot of babies in here), my last post was aimed directly at Roogsy. :D

I am taking your legs out next tourney! :hulk:

Shaughno
09-09-2009, 08:44 AM
I make money 24/7 baby. Asian markets were open.



I am taking your legs out next tourney! :hulk:
:rofl: Gotta catch me first Roogs! :lol:

Roogsy
09-09-2009, 08:46 AM
Ah...well played young grasshoppa!

TicTacTabarnack
09-09-2009, 09:01 AM
T - 30 mins!

I_AM_CANADIAN
09-09-2009, 09:03 AM
:facepalm:

Damn.

Roogsy
09-09-2009, 09:05 AM
Remember guys that there is a new thread for the press conference here:

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=17096 (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=17096)

Anything related to the presser should go in there.

TFC Tifoso
09-09-2009, 09:07 AM
absolutely fucking gutted :mad:...I an't believe we will never see Dichio on the field again....

THANKS FOR EVERYTHING DANNY!!......YOU ARE THE REASON I FELL IN LOVE WITH THIS TEAM AND WILL ALWAYS BE IN THE SUPPORTERS' MINDS AND HEARTS!!

23:13 FOREVER!

Lucky Strike
09-09-2009, 09:07 AM
Number 9 retires on 09/09/09.

Hmmm.

Oooo, that's good!

Belfast_Boy
09-09-2009, 09:19 AM
it would have been nice to see him have one more run at home.
no matter what the truth is the whole thing was handled badly. CumMo bullshitted us with stories about him not being able to travel. think Roogsy is on the right track about DD being pushed out.
IMO this has damaged the credibility of the organization.

SmokedPanda
09-09-2009, 09:48 AM
remember the date, #9 retired on 09/09/09

Redcoe15
09-09-2009, 10:07 AM
Number 9 retires on 09/09/09.

Hmmm.
:eek: Whoa.

barticusz
09-09-2009, 11:12 AM
This may have been asked already but, can DeGuz play on Saturday?

Roogsy
09-09-2009, 11:16 AM
Not yet. Probably should ask something like that in the Deguz thread in the future.

Phil
09-09-2009, 11:16 AM
This may have been asked already but, can DeGuz play on Saturday?

If he signs by Saturday, sure!

I would imagine match fitness will enter into the equation though.

MUFC_Niagara
09-09-2009, 12:45 PM
Dichio seems so sad in the interview.....glad to here that his family is rooted here and they don't want to go back to England.

Shakes McQueen
09-09-2009, 01:21 PM
Wholly fucking novels! Who has the time to write that shit at 2-3am?!?!?

Get a life retards. :lol:

MY explanation is the same as Roogsy's - at work, with nothing to do, men can do terrible things, haha.

- Scott

Roogsy
09-09-2009, 01:55 PM
I dunno about you...I was packing for my promised trip to the Caribbean!

I_AM_CANADIAN
09-09-2009, 02:05 PM
Dichio seems so sad in the interview.....glad to here that his family is rooted here and they don't want to go back to England.
Yep, poor guy. Obviously he wanted to keep playing, and he SHOULD still be playing.

Is the press conference up on TFC TV yet?

billyfly
09-09-2009, 04:32 PM
Even in England his retirement makes news!

http://www.football365.com/story/0,17033,8652_5546524,00.html

jloome
09-09-2009, 07:51 PM
People here sometimes surprise me. Danny's been considered a significant talent, a major player, for most of his career. He's not an English cast-off. Despite good early strike rates, he was cast as and willingly took the role of target man, and was so good at it that Sampdoria signed him away to Serie A.

So there's a reason he always looks like our best player on the field...because he's our best player.

Was.

Damn.

prizby
09-09-2009, 10:00 PM
i just fucking lost it

this is all i can say for the time being

Shakes McQueen
09-09-2009, 10:42 PM
Yep, poor guy. Obviously he wanted to keep playing, and he SHOULD still be playing.

Is the press conference up on TFC TV yet?

He seemed a little sombre at times about it, but most players seem upset, or even start crying at their retirement announcements. The doesn't necessarily mean he regretted his decision, or he was forced out, or whatever - I'm sure it just hits you pretty hard sitting there, when you realize you won't be suiting up on Saturdays anymore.

I was glad to hear he should be coaching with the first team next season, and helping with scouting. I was also glad to hear that TFC are going to be bringing him out on the field for the last home game, so the guy can get the recognition from the fans he deserves.

- Scott

jloome
09-09-2009, 10:47 PM
Mo Johnston from the official team story: When you look at that moment, it's ingrained in the TFC fan's head," Johnston said. "They'll always remember him scoring that goal, the seat cushions, and biting at the goalkeeper's ear and getting red-carded. It was three things rolled into one. It was a special day."

He brings up the ear bite. What a cunt.

Shakes McQueen
09-09-2009, 10:54 PM
Mo Johnston from the official team story: When you look at that moment, it's ingrained in the TFC fan's head," Johnston said. "They'll always remember him scoring that goal, the seat cushions, and biting at the goalkeeper's ear and getting red-carded. It was three things rolled into one. It was a special day."

He brings up the ear bite. What a cunt.

Not sure if you watched the conference when he said that, but as far as I remember, Mo and Dichio both had pretty big smiles at the mention of the ear bite.

- Scott

Ossington Mental Youth
09-09-2009, 11:50 PM
yeah, i honestly kinda teared up a bit and laughed when they mentioned the red card, thats Dichio to a T

Blizzard
09-10-2009, 12:07 AM
Not sure if you watched the conference when he said that, but as far as I remember, Mo and Dichio both had pretty big smiles at the mention of the ear bite.

- Scott

Ya, it was a big joke amongst them I think. Live, he actually said "trying to bite the keeper's ear off".

Cashcleaner
09-10-2009, 02:05 AM
Ideally, I'd like to see Dichio start off in an assistant's role in a place like the Academy, with a long-term goal of cultivating him into TFC's eventual coach.

I think any outcry to make him coach now, is probably more motivated by an emotional response, than a rational one. He doesn't have nearly enough experience for the job yet, to do it well.

And unless we want to avoid some awkward situation where he gets thrust into the job, does poorly, and we have to fire him - I'd say it's better to give him time to learn, and make sure he's up to the job, so he can keep it long term, and we can avoid another Cummins.

- Scott

Yeah, that's certainly a possibility. Before I say anything, let me remark that I certainly do wish Danny all the best in his coaching career and I do hope he develops into a brilliant gaffer. My only concern is that we may let our emotions cloud our judgement of him in his new position. I mean, there's no disputing the impact he's had on the pitch for us so the praise for his abilities as a player are all well-deserved. I just really hope that if things don't work out later with him on in his new role, we won't...you know...

Well you know what I mean. Of course, that's the worst-case scenario.

Shakes McQueen
09-10-2009, 02:41 AM
Yeah, that's certainly a possibility. Before I say anything, let me remark that I certainly do wish Danny all the best in his coaching career and I do hope he develops into a brilliant gaffer. My only concern is that we may let our emotions cloud our judgement of him in his new position. I mean, there's no disputing the impact he's had on the pitch for us so the praise for his abilities as a player are all well-deserved. I just really hope that if things don't work out later with him on in his new role, we won't...you know...

Well you know what I mean. Of course, that's the worst-case scenario.

Exactly. He needs time to learn, and if he learns well, then we can make him coach down the road.

- Scott

Mark in Ottawa
09-10-2009, 10:34 AM
My only concern is that we may let our emotions cloud our judgement of him in his new position. I mean, there's no disputing the impact he's had on the pitch for us so the praise for his abilities as a player are all well-deserved. I just really hope that if things don't work out later with him on in his new role, we won't...you know...

Danny D. has always been a hard working, plain speaking, team member.
It is just who he is and I can't see that changing much.

We all know that whatever he does as a coach he will give it his all and it will be in the best interests of his family, players, team and organization.
I for one wouldn't want it any other way.

ensco
09-10-2009, 10:39 AM
I wish he were going in as coach Saturday. I really do.

csweeney
09-10-2009, 03:44 PM
Cummins is done!
hes slipping...

ricciboy
09-12-2009, 10:06 AM
Shitt

rocker
09-12-2009, 10:48 AM
Yeah, that's certainly a possibility. Before I say anything, let me remark that I certainly do wish Danny all the best in his coaching career and I do hope he develops into a brilliant gaffer. My only concern is that we may let our emotions cloud our judgement of him in his new position. I mean, there's no disputing the impact he's had on the pitch for us so the praise for his abilities as a player are all well-deserved. I just really hope that if things don't work out later with him on in his new role, we won't...you know...

Ya, to be honest I have no clue if he'll even be a good coach.
And I'd rather not have to waste a few years figuring out if he'll be a good coach. We've already had to do that with Carver and Cummins.
I'm sure he'd give 100% and work his ass off, but that doesn't mean he'll be a good coach, just a hardworking, honest coach.
And you are right to mention clouding our judgement. If Dichio was head coach and we finished the same or worse than we did under Cummins and Carver, would people be critical of him or just let it slide because it's "Danny Dichio".
At this point, after having Mo, Carver, and Cummins as coach, I say it's time for a proven coach. A guy who isn't learning on the job anymore.
And perhaps Danny would want it that way -- cuz if he were head coach and he sucked at it, that'd be the end of his time at TFC.
If he takes up lesser roles for now, he can learn and stick around longer.

ensco
09-14-2009, 04:44 AM
they called him "Deetch"

http://www.safc.com/page/LatestNews/0,,10281~1796129,00.html

Lucky Strike
09-14-2009, 07:59 AM
they called him "Deetch"

http://www.safc.com/page/LatestNews/0,,10281~1796129,00.html

I wonder why his move away from PNE "didn't sit well". Because he was very liked or because of something else?