Cummins gets sassy with a reporter

[DangerRed]

Seems Cummins didn't take well to a reporter criticizing TFC's road record this season. You can see the exchange on the link at the bottom, where CC looks kinda pissed, but here's the transcript as I've made it out:


Reporter: "(indiscernible) struggled on the road?"

Cummins: "Do you think we've struggled on the road?"

Reporter: "(indiscrentible) two wins."

Cummins: "Two wins? Nine points in nine games? A point a game? It's not bad, is it? Is it better than last year?"

Reporter: "It's not much better."

Cummins: "It's not much better, but it is better, is it?"

Reporter: "I think two games last year."

Cummins: "OK, so it's a step in the right direction."


http://torontofc.neulion.com/tfc/console.jsp?catid=2&id=1036

[Shaughno]

Good for him. I like managers that don't take shit from two-bit reporters who haven't a clue.

[Roogsy]

I get that the reporter needs a story, but if you're gonna ask a question, you'd better follow up with some facts or acknowledgement. Cummins asked an appropriate question. If it makes your point look bad, acknowledge and move on. Who was the douchebag?

[DangerRed]

I get that the reporter needs a story, but if you're gonna ask a question, you'd better follow up with some facts or acknowledgement. Cummins asked an appropriate question. If it makes your point look bad, acknowledge and move on. Who was the douchebag?

I've seen him the odd time, but don't know who he is. Taller than Cummins, greying dark hair and a goatee, wearing a classic vertically-striped Tony Soprano/I'm-a-sports-reporter shirt.

Just watched again. Cummins looks pissed.

[Jay P]

^^^^

john molinaro?

[Darlofletch]

he did something similar in Puerto Rico. I like it, I eagerly await his Joe kinnear moment.

[DangerRed]

^^^^

john molinaro?

Don't know, can't find a picture of him online.

[TFCRegina]

I think it's John Molinaro, check out his blog on cbc.ca

What this should say in the title is:

"Chris Cummins slaps down retarded reporter"

[Roogsy]

Ah...lol...ok then, maybe not a douchebag. John is ok. Kind of silly to ask a question that way though. Come on John.

[rocker]

whatever....

most MLS teams struggle on the road. and Seattle and Colorado have only 2 wins on the road. Columbass only has <GASP!> 3 wins on the road!! Same with Chivas.

This isn't news.... maybe it was to the reporter???? ;)

Anyone who knows MLS knows you take care of home field and then grab a few on the road and you're in the playoffs. I also think this year is the best year for TFC on the road. They don't look absolutely pathetic on the road the way they did in Years 1 and 2.

[Carts]

Just watched it - I like how Cummins handled it and 'answered back' the reporter...

Carts...

[mmmikey]

Ya our road record isn't bad.. Our home record on the other hand needs improvement.

[billyfly]

I think our road record sux. I wanna win every game.

[DOMIN8R]

I don't think that he got "sassy". He calmly disagreed with JM. Certainly, he's no Carver.

[Limani_Ole]

how many "media scrums" does Cummings have to do every week?

seems a bit distracting

[johnmolinaro]

Chris wasn't really pissed with my question, but he did respectfully disagree with my premise that the team has struggled on the road.

Two wins on the road, nine out of possible 29 points away from home, 20 goals against on the road (versus 11 at home) - that to me suggests the team has struggled on the road.

3 wins and 10 points on the road last season - so not better than last year (although there's still 6 road games to play).

True, most teams (including Columbus and Seattle) stink on the road, but 6 of Toronto's final nine games are on the road - and the only teams they've beaten away from home this season are San Jose and KC (hardly powerhouses).

All I'm saying is that they have a difficult stretch coming up, made even more difficult by the fact they struggle on the road (sorry Chris).

RE: Tony Soprano/I'm-a-sports-reporter shirt... LOL :)

John

[johnmolinaro]

how many "media scrums" does Cummings have to do every week?

seems a bit distracting

usually 3-4 per week. one after each practice and then one post-game.

[kitchener-TFC]

They could prove us wrong John, starting with Saturday's game.

[johnmolinaro]

They could prove us wrong John, starting with Saturday's game.

yes, they could. I don't dispute that. All I was saying is that they have struggled on the road this season and the only reason I asked the question is because their next 3 games are on the road, as are six of their final nine of the season.

if they were set to play six of their next nine games at home, I wouldn't have asked that question.

[jabbronies]

If he thinks 9 points in 9 games is good, then say so long to the playoffs.

[Hitcho]

Chris wasn't really pissed with my question, but he did respectfully disagree with my premise that the team has struggled on the road.

Two wins on the road, nine out of possible 29 points away from home, 20 goals against on the road (versus 11 at home) - that to me suggests the team has struggled on the road.

3 wins and 10 points on the road last season - so not better than last year (although there's still 6 road games to play).

True, most teams (including Columbus and Seattle) stink on the road, but 6 of Toronto's final nine games are on the road - and the only teams they've beaten away from home this season are San Jose and KC (hardly powerhouses).

All I'm saying is that they have a difficult stretch coming up, made even more difficult by the fact they struggle on the road (sorry Chris).

RE: Tony Soprano/I'm-a-sports-reporter shirt... LOL :)

John

:facepalm: What is it with people and maths this week? Someone posted about taking 8 points from the next three away games yesterday. But for a sports reporter to think there are 29 points available from ten away games...

Too much of this John :drinking:and not enough :google:

:D

EDIT - in case anyone missed the e-humour, that was a tongue in cheek post, I'm not shitting on JM, just mucking about!

[Damien]

Nothing wrong with putting a lil pressure on the lads to win on the road.

[DangerRed]

Chris

RE: Tony Soprano/I'm-a-sports-reporter shirt... LOL :)

John

Hope you know that wasn't a compliment, JM. ;)

[Hitcho]

If he thinks 9 points in 9 games is good, then say so long to the playoffs.

Maybe. If we pick up 15 points on the road this season then that could be enough to get us into the play offs, but we'd need a pretty stellar home record. Realistically we'd be looking for more like 20+ points on the road for the season, but we could still achieve that - the pressure's on now, but then again the squad is looking much better right now than it ever has in the club's history, so who knows?

:scarf::scarf::scarf:

[johnmolinaro]

If he thinks 9 points in 9 games is good, then say so long to the playoffs.

I couldn't agree more.

[johnmolinaro]

Hope you know that wasn't a compliment, JM. ;)

It's all good, bro.

[DangerRed]

We need four (at least) if not six out of those next three road games, plain and simple.

I think it's doable, as long as Chad Barrett stays off the field.

[S_D]

and don't forget one of those goals was a lucky own goal at Columbus.


I think our road record sux. I wanna win every game.

Agreed. Although not likely to happen.

John you let him off the hook too easily :). I think the bigger point is how the team has played on the road when we lost.

Lets face it there have been some absolute stinkers. (some at home too!) Houston and I think it was RSL come to mind. They were just beyond a bad day at the office lol. I remember in our post game threads many people just disgusted with the effort, lack of tactics and everything else you can imagine.

I think readers would be interested in hearing how CC is going to prevent things like that from happening. It could be through preparation, willingness to pay the kids and sit the vets if they stink up the joint etc...

[Hitcho]

The team needs to forget about setting targets over the remaining away games and just go game by game. Get the win, get a result, forget about everything else.

The next two games are tough and involve long trips. Looking ahead to other games is just too distracting.

All I want the guys to be thinking of is getting their heads down and thinking hwo to beat Chivas.

What's going to be interesting is whether CC sticks with the youngsters ilke he said he would, or reverts back to the likes of Garcia.

[GBV]

how many "media scrums" does Cummings have to do every week?

seems a bit distracting

oh come on. compared to all the other sports around here?
publicity is good -- and needed -- and i reckon he knows and appreciates that.

[Super]

We're not trying to just be better than last year. We're trying to make the play-offs. 9 points in 9 games is clearly not good enough on the road - unless you're winning all games at home. Absolutely not good enough - but a strong finish may give us a spot just the same.

[FluSH]

I'm actually happy that there is some pressure put in these interviews... good on John... Yes Cummins answered accordingly but come on... let's be real look at our much improved line up... 9 points in 9 games?!!! Anyhow I wonder if Michelle will be black listing John for not sugar coating the questions...

[grizzle]

Toronto is pretty much on par for the league average for away points. Most of the teams that have very similar road records. Most of the ones with more away points have played more games. Also, shouldn't it be 9 points out of a possible 27, not 29?

[Chevy]

I don't think that he got "sassy". He calmly disagreed with JM. Certainly, he's no Carver.

Who is this Carver that you speak of?

[Roogsy]

I'm actually happy that there is some pressure put in these interviews... good on John... Yes Cummins answered accordingly but come on... let's be real look at our much improved line up... 9 points in 9 games?!!! Anyhow I wonder if Michelle will be black listing John for not sugar coating the questions...

LOL!

Zing!

:lol:

[TFCRegina]

usually 3-4 per week. one after each practice and then one post-game.

Yeah, it's usually Tuesday, Thursday, post-game.

For special games, like the cups I think it was one practice one, a pre-game and a post-game

[LucaGol]

oh no, Cummins had to answer a question about the teams poor away form at a time when many away games are coming up ...

... oh no ... poor Chris.

9 points in 9 games is not good, just for the record. Especially when 6 points came from Kansas City and San Jose.

[TFCRegina]

I'm actually happy that there is some pressure put in these interviews... good on John... Yes Cummins answered accordingly but come on... let's be real look at our much improved line up... 9 points in 9 games?!!! Anyhow I wonder if Michelle will be black listing John for not sugar coating the questions...

Careful, you might be accused of racism by Michelle for the use of the word black. You should try something more politically correct.

[TFCRegina]

oh come on. compared to all the other sports around here?
publicity is good -- and needed -- and i reckon he knows and appreciates that.

I think it's great that they get this coverage and quite frankly, it probably impresses guys who have been at the US clubs that they actually put on these media events often and interview both players and coaches often. The more attention the better, as it makes the players feel valued, but it also increases awareness of the game in North America.

[TFCRegina]

I couldn't agree more.

Tend to disagree with the 9 games, 9 points being a bad thing.

Averaging a point a game on the road will eek us into playoffs if the home play is there.

The trick is to outperform the point a game on the road to ensure it's a solid arrival into playoffs and not a nailbiter. I'm actually not all that disappointed in this.

Last year, as I followed TFC much less than I did this year, all I seem to remember around this time of year was that TFC wasn't even being considered for playoff contention due to a number of reasons...mainly relating to the fact that it just couldn't win. Blown wins leading to draws or ties.

Let's hope Cummins has a little bit of magic.

[jabbronies]

Maybe. If we pick up 15 points on the road this season then that could be enough to get us into the play offs, but we'd need a pretty stellar home record. Realistically we'd be looking for more like 20+ points on the road for the season, but we could still achieve that - the pressure's on now, but then again the squad is looking much better right now than it ever has in the club's history, so who knows?

We'll see how good they are when it counts.
So far they are 1-3-1 when the pressure was on this year on the Road.

Won in Montreal (CC title).

Lost in Vancouver, Columbus and then Puerto Rico (all games on the road that could've given them a cup or cup birth).

Tied in New England when they were down a man and up a goal (I consider this a pressure situation).

[Nuvinho]

please ask more questions about players coming in....I am still waiting to see a full roster.

[jloome]

The ease with which people pile on the media is pathetic; you know collectively they'll never fire back, so people let loose with both guns, frequently without actually loading ammo first.

Most of our remaining games are on the road. We need to win a fair number to make the playoffs. We HAVEN'T improved yet from last year (2 wins last year, 2 wins this year), so the question of whether our terrible road history will be a factor is completely legitimate.

A reporter asks a legitimate question, Cummins acts like a defensive prat, and a whole bunch of people knob gobble because it makes them feel like part of the team or something.

Gimme a fucking break.

[rocker]

The ease with which people pile on the media is pathetic; you know collectively they'll never fire back, so people let loose with both guns, frequently without actually loading ammo first.

Most of our remaining games are on the road. We need to win a fair number to make the playoffs. We HAVEN'T improved yet from last year (2 wins last year, 2 wins this year), so the question of whether our terrible road history will be a factor is completely legitimate.

A reporter asks a legitimate question, Cummins acts like a defensive prat, and a whole bunch of people knob gobble because it makes them feel like part of the team or something.

Gimme a fucking break.

spoken like a true journalist... hahahah. you really like to defend the profession eh? ;)

[Roogsy]

The ease with which people pile on the media is pathetic; you know collectively they'll never fire back, so people let loose with both guns, frequently without actually loading ammo first.

Most of our remaining games are on the road. We need to win a fair number to make the playoffs. We HAVEN'T improved yet from last year (2 wins last year, 2 wins this year), so the question of whether our terrible road history will be a factor is completely legitimate.

A reporter asks a legitimate question, Cummins acts like a defensive prat, and a whole bunch of people knob gobble because it makes them feel like part of the team or something.

Gimme a fucking break.

Jeremy...it's not about "knob gobbling". It's the fact that there is much that should be criticized about this team, our road record is not at the top of list. It may well be at the end of the season if we don't make the playoffs. We are going to need a good record hereon out if we are to have a chance to make it. But at the very least, this, the most critical period of road games, is what will determine that. The plain fact is that this team IS better than previous seasons on the road.

If you, John or other reporters really want to give the manager the gears, you should've done it after Puerto Rico. That was a shambles of a managing job. Instead, John tries to give him the gears now? After a home win?

Talk about missing the boat.

I wish one of you guys would've taken Mo and Cummins to task for the debacle in PR. If someone has...please point me in that direction because I'd love to read it. (Wheeler did do a nice one.)

This just sounded confrontational for the sake of getting a story where there was no story.

[Inklink]

There's this reporter in every scrum who asks the stupidest questions. I don't know who he is though, but he has an unusual "S" and maybe it's that dude with the curly hair.

[mdc 77]

Who cares if the rest of the league is also crap on the road, point is TFC is crap on the road. Maybe not really a well worded question but come on Cummins just admit the club isn't good enough on the road. I would have liked Cummins to have simply answered;
"Yeah well we do need to be better."

[ensco]

This is reminding me of the "Gerba doesn't need to lose a few pounds, he's just muscular" discussion

There is some sort of weird, wild ass defence mechanism that has arisen in the last few weeks on these boards, where the team's incredibly, painfully, obvious issues , if raised, cause the person who raises them to be castigated. The people who do this seem to believe the sky is green and are acting like total jerks.

FFS what is our road record, this year, last year, any year? The fact that we beat crap teams away (KC and SJ) says nothing about how will will fare against Chivas, Seattle, LA and Colorado away. These just happen to be four of our next five games.

If you don't understand that this is a legit question, there's nothing to say.

[Roogsy]

The road record issue is a red herring.
The real problem with this team is our HOME record!

[johnmolinaro]

A reporter asks a legitimate question, Cummins acts like a defensive prat.

In Chris's defence, I didn't think he acted like a defensive prat, and I didn't take offence to the way he answered me.

That said, I do think he was in full spin mode and I'm not sure how he (or anybody for that matter) thinks 9 points out of a possible 27 and just two wins away from home (against San Jose and KC!) is a good road record.

As I said, I asked the question because the team's road record stinks and their next 3 games (and six of their last nine) are away from home while they're fighting for a playoff spot.

For me, it's a perfectly legitimate question to ask.

John

[ensco]

The road record issue is a red herring.
The real problem with this team is our HOME record!

The home record is an issue, maybe a major issue, but not the only issue.

Molinaro doesn't need the road record to be the "real issue" for his question to be legit.

[mmmikey]

So maybe the question should have been "why has your team struggled throughout the schedule?"

[Darlofletch]

To me, this is very similar to the beckham vs the riot squad issue.
I applaud both John and the riot squad for bringing up legitimate issues.
Beckham and Cummins were both well within their rights to answer back.
Both of them amused me rather than offended me and enlivened otherwise bland friendlies/press conferences, and a lot of people on both sides seemed to over react, and make it a bigger issue than it should be.
Football can be too bland, i enjoy this sort of thing.

[Roogsy]

The home record is an issue, maybe a major issue, but not the only issue.

Molinaro doesn't need the road record to be the "real issue" for his question to be legit.

Alrighty then...I hope I read somewhere that John asked him about our home record being that it's pretty much set with only a couple of home games left.

[Limani_Ole]

Im guessing because it was a open-ended question that could only be answered by him criticizing his team in some form.. and may be counter productive as to what he is trying to accomplish at the moment.. not much good can come out of it..

eitherway Thanks John for the input and for covering the team..

cheers

[johnmolinaro]

this is me throwing fuel on the fire ;)

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2009/08/18/sp-torontofc-cummins-road.html

[Roogsy]

LOL!

Shit disturber! :lol:


Er....anything in there about our poor home record?

[Gixmo]

LOL!!!! Danger!!!

[Kevvv]

Point taken, two wins is not good enough, but 9 pts in 9 games looks good compared to 21 points out of 36 at home so far. I sense that if we fail to make the playoffs, it will be as much to do with our home form as our away.

And while the losses to RSL and HD were ugly, the way we lost to Columbus and Dallas was more painful.

[Roogsy]

Exactly.

[Dunkers]

jsut to clear the air (and the spin)

We lost 11 times on the road last year, so far we have lost 3 times (with 6 road game left)...turning losses into ties IS an improvement, so cummins is right

but i see where John is comming from, ties are not as good as wins

[johnmolinaro]

Point taken, two wins is not good enough, but 9 pts in 9 games looks good compared to 21 points out of 36 at home so far. I sense that if we fail to make the playoffs, it will be as much to do with our home form as our away.
.

I respectfully disagree.

[olegunnar]

A point a game isn't anything to write home about...but I think the issue is and always is we don't do well enough at home.

We already have more home losses this year than we did all of last year. I never understood this whole fortress BMO thing.

As for our road record....Last year NYRB had 9 road points for the whole year and they made the playoffs. Salt lake had 10, KC had 11.

I think that if we want to be a top team...which should be the goal, we have to improve our home record and our road record.
If we want to scrape by and try and sneak in the playoffs, we can get away with only improving the home record.

In any event there needs to be improvement

[Kevvv]

jsut to clear the air (and the spin)

We lost 11 times on the road last year, so far we have lost 3 times (with 6 road game left)...turning losses into ties IS an improvement, so cummins is right

but i see where John is comming from, ties are not as good as wins

Problem is, we've been turning wins into ties, and ties into losses.



I respectfully disagree.


With what? We can still improve on last year's home record, if we get four points out of the remaining nine. We've already lost more home games than last year. A better road record will get us to the playoffs, but a better home record should have been easier to achieve.

[Dunkers]

Haha this debate is actaully fruitless....take a look at points per game both home and away, and compare that to the rest of the teams in the league

Home
1.cbus 2.27
2.HOU 2.18
3.DC 2.11
3.Chivas 2.11
5.Seattle 2.00
5.RSL 2.00
7.Col 1.91
8.TFC 1.75
9.NE 1.67
10.FCD 1.64
11.shitcago 1.44
12.SJ 1.37
13.LA 1.3
14.KC 1.2
15.NY 0.9

AWAY

1.shitcago 1.83
2.LA. 1.64
3.cbus 1.27
4.HOU 1.25
5.Chivas 1.1
6.Seattle 1.0
6.Col 1.0
6.TFC 1.0
6.NE 1.0
6.KC 1.0
11.DC 0.75
12.RSL 0.5
12.FCD 0.5
14.SJ 0.22
15.NY 0.08 (HAHA! the red bulls are SHITE! 12 road games and 1pt to show for it!)

We are actually ranked higher in pts per game on the road vs at home (only because 5 teams all have 1pt/gm)

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Good for him. I like managers that don't take shit from two-bit reporters who haven't a clue.


CBC staff two-bit...the not even good enough for one bit..I know the managers have to deal with reporters, its league rules, but maybe once they should just shut the door to the reporters....one the stupid questions start

[TFCRegina]

I respectfully disagree.

Throwing fuel on the fire eh?

I'd see that post below yours and above mine. Home record is a bigger issue and Chris already identified that before the DC United game. That's where you should have hit him on. The team's home play this year is embarrassing, the away play is better than average.

[johnmolinaro]

Throwing fuel on the fire eh?

I'd see that post below yours and above mine. Home record is a bigger issue and Chris already identified that before the DC United game. That's where you should have hit him on. The team's home play this year is embarrassing, the away play is better than average.

nine out of a possible 27 points, for me, is not better than average, it's embarrassing.

[Dunkers]

nine out of a possible 27 points, for me, is not better than average, it's embarrassing.

John, 5 out of 15 teams in the leauge have the same road pts in as many games, and another 5 out of 15 would be happy to have that many pts on the road...so is it TFC that is embarrasing or the MLS?

[TFCRegina]

nine out of a possible 27 points, for me, is not better than average, it's embarrassing.

Welcome to MLS, the league which is embarrassing all on it's own (for a number of it's peculiarities). Teams rarely win on the road, and draws are something of an accomplishment.

The Home Record is more of an issue, and CC has correctly identified that. We can make playoffs on a point a game average on the road, but play at home for the remaining 3 games has to be solid.

[mdc 77]

Lots of rose coloured glasses on in here tonight eh?

[Troll]

CBC staff two-bit...the not even good enough for one bit..I know the managers have to deal with reporters, its league rules, but maybe once they should just shut the door to the reporters....one the stupid questions start


I wish we could do the same with some members of this board... namely you and giambac.

Ignore function you say? hmmm...

[grizzle]

I wish we could do the same with some members of this board... namely you and giambac.

Ignore function you say? hmmm...

It is right here:

http://redpatchboys.ca/forums/profile.php?do=ignorelist

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I wish we could do the same with some members of this board... namely you and giambac.

Ignore function you say? hmmm...

did it a couple days ago, well worth the 10 seconds or what have you

[Pookie]

this is me throwing fuel on the fire ;)

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/story/2009/08/18/sp-torontofc-cummins-road.html

John, your commentary is a misleading and I've got to wonder if you were simply writing to take a meaningless shot at Cummins. Your "facts" simply don't hold water.

You quote and then state:

(Cummins) "Nine points in nine games, a point per game. It's not bad, is it?"

Well, in fact, nine points out of a possible 27 on the road is bad, even by MLS standards where all but three of the league's 15 teams have a losing road record this season.

If you look at road records by points you'll see the following:

Chicago - 22
LA - 18
Houston - 15
Columbus - 14
Chivas - 11
Seattle - 10
TFC - 9
United - 9
Revs - 9
KC - 9
Colorado - 9
RSL - 5
Dallas - 5
SJ - 2
NYRB - 1

... Toronto sits 7th in that table and has played fewer road games than any of the teams who have earned more points on the road.

You also made it a point to highlight that "Toronto has conceded a whopping 20 goals on the road (compared to just 11 at home)."

This is true but only half the picture. If you arranged the standings by Away goal differential, this is what you get:

Chicago +7
LA +4
Houston +1
Columbus +1
Seattle -4
Chivas -4
TFC -5
Colorado -5
KC -6
United -7
Dallas -7
Revs -9
RSL -9
SJ -13
NYRB -21

... Again, 7th in that table. I agree with you in that earning results on the road is going to be key to making the playoffs.

I disagree with your selective use of stats to characterize Cummins as out of touch. In fact, stats actually back up Cummins' comment that their record is "not bad."

What was the point in taking the position you did? Are you simply using negativity and cynicism to gain more exposure?

http://web.mlsnet.com/standings/

[Steve]

nine out of a possible 27 points, for me, is not better than average, it's embarrassing.

I do not think that word means what you think it means. As has been shown on this thread, we are tied for 6th in MLS for goals. The mean PPG in MLS for away games is 0.94. So, at 1, we are, by definition, better than average.

Talk about MLS away form being embarrassing all you want, but your article states we are poor by MLS standards. That is just not true. Sorry if the stats don't support your conclusion, but they don't. You can't make up a new definition for a word because you don't like the standard one.

[Hitcho]

Ok, this is getting pernickity guys.

John made a valid point in that on its face our road record isn't great, and forgetting about stats I don't think anyone on here, based on gut reaction, would say we've been good on the road in any of our three seasons to date. That's just fair comment.

The stats show that, in fact, MLS teams generally suck on the road and TFC is sitting right around the middle of the pack based on most of the sensible ways of using the away game stats. So yes TFC stinks on the road and we always have done, but equally it's not the shittest record in the league by any stretch.

But that doesn't change the fact that John's comment was a fair one that most of us would have agreed with if we weren't poring over detailed away game stat tables, so let's not dump on the guy too much. It's good that journos come on here and debate TFC issues with us, I for one hope that continues, but we have to understand that these guys are making a living out of sports articles and writing bland pieces about middle of the road stat tables won't pay the bills. The question wasn't out of line and it's good to see the media testing Cummins, as long as it's fair, which in this case I think it was. Chris responded and disagreed, but he doesn't want to knock the team and their confidence at the start of a three game road trip, especially after a really solid 2-0 home win against a good side. Nothing really to bash either CC or JM with here, in my opinion.

For what it's worth, if we do fail to make the play offs then it looks like it will be a COMBINATION of both the home and away form leaving us ranked about 8th or 9th in the respective home/away tables, ie OVERALL we're not good enough, not just on the road or at home.

[Pookie]

The question wasn;t out of line and it's good to see the media testing Cummins, as long as it;s fair, which in this cas I thinkit was.


I appreciate a good debate and have no problem with folks asking tough questions. IMO, there isn't enough of that.

That said, to put an article out there that states that "nine points out of a possible 27 on the road is bad, even by MLS standards" is extremely biased and I have to suspect biased towards a personal agenda. It's an opinion that is presented as fact.

"9 points" is fact. "Bad, even by MLS standards," is opinion that isn't supported by the complete truth.

The fact is that 9 points on the road is average by MLS standards and you could argue it is slightly above average considering they got them in fewer road games played.

However, the majority of people reading that are going to take it at face value. They aren't going to look at the table. They are simply going to lap it up and develop the (false) opinion that TFC is amongst the worst road teams in the MLS.

The fact that this statement is further used to attempt to paint Cummins as clueless is very insulting.

I think that there is nothing wrong with trying to hold the media accountable. It's what good critical thinking is all about.

[Steve]

Ok, this is getting pernickity guys.

John made a valid point in that on its face our road record isn't great, and forgetting about stats I don't think anyone on here, based on gut reaction, would say we've been good on the road in any of our three seasons to date. That's just fair comment.

The stats show that, in fact, MLS teams generally suck on the road and TFC is sitting right around the middle of the pack based on most of the sensible ways of using the away game stats. So yes TFC stinks on the road and we always have done, but equally it's not the shittest record in the league by any stretch.

But that doesn't change the fact that John's comment was a fair one that most of us would have agreed with if we weren't poring over detailed away game stat tables, so let's not dump on the guy too much. It's good that journos come on here and debate TFC issues with us, I for one hope that continues, but we have to understand that these guys are making a living out of sports articles and writing bland pieces about middle of the road stat tables won't pay the bills. The question wasn't out of line and it's good to see the media testing Cummins, as long as it's fair, which in this case I think it was. Chris responded and disagreed, but he doesn't want to knock the team and their confidence at the start of a three game road trip, especially after a really solid 2-0 home win against a good side. Nothing really to bash either CC or JM with here, in my opinion.

For what it's worth, if we do fail to make the play offs then it looks like it will be a COMBINATION of both the home and away form leaving us ranked about 8th or 9th in the respective home/away tables, ie OVERALL we're not good enough, not just on the road or at home.

I agree with John asking the question about road points. I even agree with him that it is too low, and we have to aim higher. I agree with CC defending himself. Up to that point, everything is good.

Unfortunately, that isn't where it ended. If John had written a piece that said "9 out of 27 points is bad. It's not acceptable. It's embarrassing." I would have accepted that. That is his opinion, and is as valid as anyone's. However, as soon as he said "that is poor even by MLS standards" he crossed the line. Since the facts can't be taken in away way as "poor by MLS standards" (we are above average, and 6th in a 15 team league) we have a problem. At this point, John is either showing he didn't look at the correct data and went by gut feel (which I think is probably the case, I mean, how can 9 out of 27 be considered above average?) or he purposefully mislead to make a point.

After that, he made the same point on these boards, after the real facts were revealed. He said 9 out of 27 points is not above average. That is a verifiably false statement, and he has to be called on it.

Look, I have nothing against John. I think he's great to have on these boards, is a great contact with CBC, and generally writes good articles on the team. That said, I will not hesitate to call him on his bullshit any more than I will anyone else on these boards.

[Pachuco]

For once I agree with Jloome. what the fuck is wrong with people around here? Aren't journalists supposed to ask the tough questions? There's nothing misleading about the question because half the people on here agree with it. We don't have a good enough road record right now, SPECIALLY since most of our games left are road games. If you disagree with John that's fine, that's your right, but to say his questions are misleading is ridicolous.

[TorontoBlades]

it's not a tough question, when you're playing a professional table your goal is to win at home and take at least a draw on the road. To me 9 points in 9 games isn't ideal but it's mission accomplished.

John, I appreciate your work - but 9 points in 9 games on the road may not be perfect nor ideal, but it's surely not embarassing. Also, how come whenever CC makes eye contact with you, you make a little squint and nod - do I smell a man-crush :)

[Pookie]

^ Journalists can ask tough questions.

But if they report opinion as fact and use selective stats to draw what appear to be biased conclusions, they end up working for FOX News.

[Roogsy]

^ Journalists can ask tough questions.

But if they report opinion as fact and use selective stats to draw what appear to be biased conclusions, they end up working for FOX News.

LOL! :lol:

[jabbronies]

Can everyone please stop comparing TFC's road record to the rest of the leagues road record. We need to be better than everyone...not on par in the middle of the pack with everyone.

In sports a below .500 record means you're shit. Just becuase it's the norm in MLS doesn't mean its right.

[Pachuco]

^ Journalists can ask tough questions.

But if they report opinion as fact and use selective stats to draw what appear to be biased conclusions, they end up working for FOX News.

Dude, it's not like he was doing a documentary about TFC's road record and purposely left information out. He was simply putting Cummins on the spot in a Q&A, and as a manager, I think Cummins dealt with it very well. So what's the big deal? I see this every day in journalism. Sometimes the journalists don't even believe themselves what they are asking, they are simply giving the opportunity for the other person to respond and defend themselves.

[Limani_Ole]

For once I agree with Jloome. what the fuck is wrong with people around here? Aren't journalists supposed to ask the tough questions? There's nothing misleading about the question because half the people on here agree with it. We don't have a good enough road record right now, SPECIALLY since most of our games left are road games. If you disagree with John that's fine, that's your right, but to say his questions are misleading is ridicolous.

actually opinions arent in question here... its the stats he pulled out of a hat to take a shot at CC..

TFC road record does sucks.. but in MLS standards it is AVERAGE.. and therefor NOT BAD..

if you read the article John specifically says "Well, in fact, nine points out of a possible 27 on the road is bad, even by MLS standards where all but three of the league's 15 teams have a losing road record this season."

also the "all but three... have a losing record"?

what a joke..

[ensco]

I agree with John asking the question about road points. I even agree with him that it is too low, and we have to aim higher. I agree with CC defending himself. Up to that point, everything is good.

Unfortunately, that isn't where it ended. If John had written a piece that said "9 out of 27 points is bad. It's not acceptable. It's embarrassing." I would have accepted that. That is his opinion, and is as valid as anyone's. However, as soon as he said "that is poor even by MLS standards" he crossed the line. Since the facts can't be taken in away way as "poor by MLS standards" (we are above average, and 6th in a 15 team league) we have a problem. At this point, John is either showing he didn't look at the correct data and went by gut feel (which I think is probably the case, I mean, how can 9 out of 27 be considered above average?) or he purposefully mislead to make a point.

After that, he made the same point on these boards, after the real facts were revealed. He said 9 out of 27 points is not above average. That is a verifiably false statement, and he has to be called on it.

Look, I have nothing against John. I think he's great to have on these boards, is a great contact with CBC, and generally writes good articles on the team. That said, I will not hesitate to call him on his bullshit any more than I will anyone else on these boards.

This is annoying. These "facts" that a bunch of people are going on about, aren't facts.

The tables showing points per game aren't normalized for strength of schedule. 5 of our remaining 6 road games are against top 7 teams

Further, it's a small sample size, which is hugely affected by injuries, recent form, international dates, and other variables, for all the clubs.

It's always going to be subjective, people, get over it.

[Pookie]

Dude, it's not like he was doing a documentary about TFC's road record and purposely left information out. He was simply putting Cummins on the spot in a Q&A, and as a manager, I think Cummins dealt with it very well. So what's the big deal? I see this every day in journalism. Sometimes the journalists don't even believe themselves what they are asking, they are simply giving the opportunity for the other person to respond and defend themselves.

He used 2 selective facts (9 points and 20 Goals Against) and drew an inference that this was inferior to virtually all MLS clubs... in order to portray Cummins as inept (examples below).

1. It would be hard to imagine a coach of any pro sports team being satisfied with winning just two road games in a season.

Toronto FC's Chris Cummins is the exception.

2. Curiously, all of this appears to be lost on Cummins. To hear the Toronto FC coach tell it, things have gone just swimmingly away from home this season.


I've got no issue with highlighting we need more points, both at home and on the road. That's about as true as it gets.

I have an issue with undermining the coach publicly when facts do not support the conclusion.

[Shaughno]

Your "facts" aren't facts either.

The tables showing points per game aren't normalized for strength of schedule. 5 of our remaining 6 road games are against top 7 teams


Still, fact of this league is, on any given day, any team can win no matter how shit they are... unless they are the RedBalls. :lol:

Yes it makes it tougher, yes it might not be ideal. Fact of the matter is, regardless of whether our record compares to other teams in the league or not, we still have to go out and win games.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

I wish we could do the same with some members of this board... namely you and giambac.

Ignore function you say? hmmm...


be my guest...do i looked worried:rolleyes:

[ensco]

Still, fact of this league is, on any given day, any team can win no matter how shit they are... unless they are the RedBalls. :lol:

Yes it makes it tougher, yes it might not be ideal. Fact of the matter is, regardless of whether our record compares to other teams in the league or not, we still have to go out and win games.

No disagreement here. We just need some road wins, however likely it is.

My issue is with the thought police out there hauling decent journalists up in front of a kangaroo court here, because of supposed "facts" which turn out to be BS once you spend even a minute looking at them.

[Shaughno]

No disagreement here. We just need some road wins, however likely it is.

My issue is with the thought police out there hauling decent journalists up in front of a kangaroo court here, because of supposed "facts" which turn out to be BS once you spend even a minute looking at them.

Oh agreed for sure. As I said, it's not an ideal record away from home, but it's certainly not as bad as some people seem to think. Fact of the matter is, MLS teams generally suck away from home.

[Hitcho]

Pookie and Steve - I take your points. In principle I agree with you both, but in reality this is what journos do, take an angle and write it up as opinion based fact.

It's wrong based on the tables, but as someone pointed out above, we have got to play 5 of the top 7 teams away in this nasty run in to the season's end, and we've played like crap on the road a lot this season, so in reality, our record is pretty bad by any standards, even in MLS and even though the tables show us being "average".

We know we suck on the road, John knows it, Cummins knows it really, anyone who's reading about TFC on John's blog probably knows it and the slightly skewed tables (as they currently stand) don't really shoot those opinions down as they don;t tell the whole truth.

Now I admit, if we go on a hot road streak for the last 9 games it will all change. But as of right now, I think JM's point can be supported by opinion despite the tables.

[mmmikey]

it's not a tough question, when you're playing a professional table your goal is to win at home and take at least a draw on the road. To me 9 points in 9 games isn't ideal but it's mission accomplished.


bang on and where most of the ppl who don't think our road record is "embarrasing" are coming from. just cause we don't agree with how john puts it, it doesn't mean that we are all pleased as punch about it either.

will it be enough to get us into the playoffs? no.. we need to be better then a point a game on the road. is it an embarrassment? no more then our record has been overall. i find our home form way more embarrassing. especially with the support this team enjoys, they need to be much better at home.

sometimes this board needs to be reminded there is a gray area between the black and white of a discussion.

[rocker]

My issue is with the thought police out there hauling decent journalists up in front of a kangaroo court here, because of supposed "facts" which turn out to be BS once you spend even a minute looking at them.

that's pretty funny that you call people on a message board "thought police."

cuz the mainstream media (see: Molinaro) are often just that.

Criticizing the mainstream media isn't exactly a bad thing. I think his story is weak, obvious, and easily criticized. but he gets paid to do the job, so I guess I should just stop being critical eh?

Personally I think Molinaro could dig a little deeper in his work but he tends to stick with simple stuff.

[ensco]

that's pretty funny that you call people on a message board "thought police."

cuz the mainstream media (see: Molinaro) are often just that.

Criticizing the mainstream media isn't exactly a bad thing. I think his story is weak, obvious, and easily criticized. but he gets paid to do the job, so I guess I should just stop being critical eh?

Personally I think Molinaro could dig a little deeper in his work but he tends to stick with simple stuff.

You and I agree on the general quality of sports journalism. jloome and I have clashed over this. I say too many of them are too close to their sources, and it taints their work. I could name some names as it relates to TFC, but then I'd get accused of rehashing the Carter thing.

I just want to defend any TFC journalist who takes a stance in public that can be defended (it doesn't have to be right) in opposition to mgmt. Anyone who wants a good team here would want that.

The tone of some of those posts against Molinaro were ridiculous in the extreme (btw I don't know the guy, nor have I met him, nor do I think he's god's gift to sports journalism). But those "facts are worng" posts read like the evidence given by the prosecution in the Salem witch hunt in 1692.

[johnmolinaro]

But those "facts are worng" posts read like the evidence given by the prosecution in the Salem witch hunt in 1692.

Oh man, I appreciate the thought, but I think that's a bit overboard.

Honestly, I don't mind all this debate and I don't even mind people calling me a two-bit hack. Everyone is entitled to their view, so as far as I'm concerned, I take no offence and it's all good.

I just feel bad that I caused such a shit storm and pissed so many people off because that wasn't my intention.

Hope this means I'll still be invited to your year-end party. :)

[CretanBull]

Cummins has to react the way he did...in part he's protecting the ego of his club at a crucial time in the season and probably more importantly his own neck. He's still working under the 'interim' label and when a reporter questions the clubs progress it should surprise no one that the coach feels a little threatened and reacts defensively. Its not a big deal, John asked the question that he's supposed to and Cummins reacted predictably.

[Dirk Diggler]

For once I agree with Jloome. what the fuck is wrong with people around here? Aren't journalists supposed to ask the tough questions? There's nothing misleading about the question because half the people on here agree with it. We don't have a good enough road record right now, SPECIALLY since most of our games left are road games. If you disagree with John that's fine, that's your right, but to say his questions are misleading is ridicolous.

I agree. People bitch that journalists are in bed with the management yet when they ask questions that the management or the coaching stuff does not like, people start shitting on the journalist. I fail to understand how exactly John was looking to bait Cummins into a terrible debate. In absolute terms, our road record is bad. Anyone who is willing to argue that point is out to lunch. Granted, in relative terms, we are middle of the pack in that respect but to blindly accept that bad road record is to be expected in this league is quite foolish. Why should it not be a concern that if we carry on with our mediocre road record the rest of the season, our playoffs hopes might be jeopardy?

Either way, I personally find the majority of the coverage regarding TFC quite lackluster (both mainstream and independent electronic bloggers). However, I am pleased with the fact that we are beginning to get journalists who are not afraid to get on the wrong side of the management. During the past couple of seasons, I realized that not many were willing to do so because their background in the sport might not be strong enough to take a contrarian stance against the management and the coaching ... especially in front of them. Two bit hackjob is a bit harsh even if you disagree with his opinion.

[FluSH]

Oh man, I appreciate the thought, but I think that's a bit overboard.

Honestly, I don't mind all this debate and I don't even mind people calling me a two-bit hack. Everyone is entitled to their view, so as far as I'm concerned, I take no offence and it's all good.

I just feel bad that I caused such a shit storm and pissed so many people off because that wasn't my intention.

Hope this means I won't be invited to your year-end party. :)

You lost some points with me waaay back... when you were defeding that gossip soccer Journo (he who's name we do not speak around here...) however you gained them all back this time around!!!

Tough questions were made to be asked...

[Pigfynn]

Oh man, I appreciate the thought, but I think that's a bit overboard.

Honestly, I don't mind all this debate and I don't even mind people calling me a two-bit hack. Everyone is entitled to their view, so as far as I'm concerned, I take no offence and it's all good.

I just feel bad that I caused such a shit storm and pissed so many people off because that wasn't my intention.

Hope this means I won't be invited to your year-end party. :)

You no wanna come? :drinking:

[johnmolinaro]

You no wanna come? :drinking:

sorry, I meant I hope this means that I'll still get an invite... :)

[TFC07]

I don't understand this thread. What is wrong about questioning TFC road record?

It is good that we actually got some reporters who are willing to ask tough questions instead of sucking TFC management dicks all the time.

[Pookie]

^ it's not wrong to question the road record (or broken promises from management, or tactical decisions made during games, or whether there really was hooliganism in Columbus, etc, etc, etc).

However, it's wrong to misrepresent that road record.

What bothers me most though is that it's wrong to use that misrepresentation as the basis of a "story" that attempts to make the coach look inept and out of touch.

There are probably many tactical examples one could use to make that point rather than attempting to stretch selective statistics.

[CretanBull]

What's misrepresented?

[Blazer]

Cummins wasn’t upset here at all, he just did a good job at deflecting a question that he didn’t and likely still doesn’t know the answer to. Everyone’s differing perception of what “sassy” really is I suppose, but the best way to answer a question is to ask one in response?! Tends to shut people up in a hurry!

Fact is, the team is abysmal on the road and it needs to be seriously addressed. And, if Cummins believes that they’re taking “steps in the right direction” from last year, he’s dead wrong mistaken!

If that’s his objective then he’s merely in here to look good and make as few possible errors along the way, while only hoping to be successful in this position. Not a good way to win the support of fans, even if only a few of us can see through your obvious outward trepidation, Chris.

This team needs a shake up and whether it’s Mo or Cummins to do it, he’ll (Cummins) will be left answering similar questions so long as this team wades in the mediocrity pool.

[ensco]

^ it's not wrong to question the road record (or broken promises from management, or tactical decisions made during games, or whether there really was hooliganism in Columbus, etc, etc, etc).

However, it's wrong to misrepresent that road record.

What bothers me most though is that it's wrong to use that misrepresentation as the basis of a "story" that attempts to make the coach look inept and out of touch.

There are probably many tactical examples one could use to make that point rather than attempting to stretch selective statistics.

Pookie, you are a poster I know to generally be a thoughtful one, but really, your "proof" that this was misrepresentation is pretty lame. I'd suggest a different tone.

You and I have anonymity, John doesn't, I think you're going way too far.

[Pookie]

Pookie, you are a poster I know to generally be a thoughtful one, but really, your "proof" that this was misrepresentation is pretty lame. I'd suggest a different tone.


I guess that's a matter of opinion.

I (and others) have taken time to highlight that the road record by MLS "isn't bad" as Cummins' originally suggested. I think everyone in this debate is absolutely agreed on the fact that we need a stellar road record in the upcoming games to make the playoffs.

This is a fairly simple logic equation here.

John is concluding that Cummins is out of touch with reality for suggesting the road record "isn't bad."

To prove that conclusion he offers that by grabbing 9 points, that accomplishment is "bad, even by MLS standards."

He further offers that they have conceded a "whopping 20 Goals Against."

This is all the evidence offered to assert that the team is bad on the road and therefore Cummins, by asserting they are doing ok, is out of touch.

Maybe there is further evidence that isn't being offered?

Because the way I see it, they sit 7th in points earned on the road in fewer games played. They sit 7th in goal differential on the road and while they have given up 20, they have also scored 15 Goals in fewer road games. That would put them 4th overall in that category.

I've got no issue with John writing that the road record needs to improve. Hell, if we had held on to the lead in Columbus, we'd feel more comfortable about our chances.

My issue is with the tone and actions of publicly belittling the coach for a comment made when in fact, most of the evidence would back him up.

I just think he went somewhere he a) didn't need to go... or b) could have gone there more effectively by choosing to challenge road tactics, substitutions, game plans, etc.

In the end, I'm glad he is writing as it gets people talking about the team.