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Stryker
08-13-2009, 12:46 PM
For dropping all the dead wood in the last couple of months and bringing in alot of potential players on trial.
Was also happy that he pushed hard for De Guzman but wasn't willing to sell the farm or let the deal dangle forever.

:thumbsup:

BayernTFC
08-13-2009, 12:56 PM
For dropping all the dead wood in the last couple of months and bringing in alot of potential players on trial.
Was also happy that he pushed hard for De Guzman but wasn't willing to sell the farm or let the deal dangle forever.

:thumbsup:
Agreed. We don't always get the information on the ins and outs of contract negotiations, but they can be complex and sometimes difficult. It's a good sign for the future if MLS is able to sell talent to other leagues on a consistent basis one day. There would be a need for competent replacements, and the fact that Mo has been able to get many bodies through the door for a look is promising.

colman1860
08-13-2009, 12:56 PM
Agreed, though I may be in the minority. Or maybe the haters just yell loudest around here...

colman1860
08-13-2009, 12:57 PM
On second thought, I disagree, based on the avatar of the poster above me.

Parkdale
08-13-2009, 01:01 PM
On second thought, I disagree, based on the avatar of the poster above me.


now that's the spirit!

Pachuco
08-13-2009, 03:18 PM
well if he dropped all this dead wood, then shouldn't he be blamed for hiring all the dead wood? He's only cleaning up his own mess ;)

BayernTFC
08-13-2009, 03:37 PM
well if he dropped all this dead wood, then shouldn't he be blamed for hiring all the dead wood? He's only cleaning up his own mess ;)
Perhaps for some. To be fair, it's not always easy to tell if a player will perform well from footage or from trials. Game time action may be required. MLS is a different league that doesn't play football at the same level or speed as elsewhere. Some players can adjust over time, others never pick it up. There is also the question of whether a player can gel with his teammates, on the pitch, when it counts. Mistakes are made. Even Sir Alex gets it wrong sometimes. I'd be more worried if the manager wasn't willing to admit mistakes and avoided trying to improve the squad because he wanted to cover up his blunders. We only have 24 roster spots and there is a cap. Player movement is going to happen. I am more bothered by the tendency of TFC to still play like individuals rather than a team.

BayernTFC
08-13-2009, 03:39 PM
On second thought, I disagree, based on the avatar of the poster above me.
:lol:

See, this is what happens when two families live in the same house. Shouldn't The Lions get their own den? :D

wzhxvy
08-13-2009, 03:39 PM
Kudos to MO ? You like MLSE are premature...lets make the playoffs before you give him Kudos...cmon people, lets have some standards.

Shakes McQueen
08-13-2009, 03:45 PM
well if he dropped all this dead wood, then shouldn't he be blamed for hiring all the dead wood? He's only cleaning up his own mess ;)

Even the best GM's in the world don't strike gold 100% of the time. But I think if you look at our acquisitions - especially this year - Mo does seem to be bringing in progressively better talent.

I really, honestly think Mo Johnston gets a lot of undue flack from the fans sometimes, for problems that can be more accurately attributed to poor coaching. And I think some of the players that have left Toronto, to go on and be far more prosperous elsewhere, are a testament to that suspicion.

However, unless we really catch fire down the stretch this season, I really think the onus is on Mo to bring in a high-level coach to better use the pieces he has brought to TO. And no matter what happens down the stretch, he needs to seriously address our defense - no more trial balloons and bandaids like Harmse, Velez, and Garcia running our back four.

Mo has done a decent job so far, in my opinion. But I DON'T think he deserves this rumoured two-year extension just yet. There are still problems he hasn't fixed.

- Scott

BayernTFC
08-13-2009, 03:46 PM
Kudos to MO ? You like MLSE are premature...lets make the playoffs before you give him Kudos...cmon people, lets have some standards.
There is nothing wrong with giving credit where credit is due. I don't think that Stryker was arguing for a contract extension for MO now, but I'll let him speak for himself.

wzhxvy
08-13-2009, 03:47 PM
I am afraid the contract extension is a done deal..so my bitching wont do much but it makes me feel better ! I just believe you reward people based on results and not the promise of results

Shakes McQueen
08-13-2009, 03:47 PM
Kudos to MO ? You like MLSE are premature...lets make the playoffs before you give him Kudos...cmon people, lets have some standards.

He didn't say the man deserved a lifetime contract for unloading our dead weight - he was just giving him props for doing something right. Nothing wrong with giving our GM kudos for doing something good for the team.

- Scott

AL-MO
08-13-2009, 03:48 PM
Kudos to MO ? You like MLSE are premature...lets make the playoffs before you give him Kudos...cmon people, lets have some standards.

Agreed. All this means nothing if we don't make it to the playoffs.

DangerRed
08-13-2009, 03:50 PM
Cummins himself said today we need 13 or 15 points to make the playoffs. Ten games left. That's four wins and a draw or five wins flat out.

Is it doable? Maybe. If they do it, I'll give Mo the kudos then. For now, get the fuck back to work.

MartinUtd
08-13-2009, 03:55 PM
I'm still holding out for Robbie Keane :D


Seriously though, I like that he's willing to make moves but it seems like he's often looking for any position other than the one we immediately need.

joel
08-13-2009, 03:58 PM
I am afraid the contract extension is a done deal..so my bitching wont do much but it makes me feel better ! I just believe you reward people based on results and not the promise of results

my sources say its a done deal, 3 years.

TorontoBlades
08-13-2009, 04:01 PM
Agreed. All this means nothing if we don't make it to the playoffs.

This is a typical North American critique right here ^

Mo has set us up well for the present and even better for the future. It may not be this year or even next year - but with our academy growing the way it has and the youth that is starting to expose itself to the first team. I am certain that TFC will be a successful club for a very long time when everything comes together.

DOMIN8R
08-13-2009, 04:09 PM
Good job, so far, MO. Heaven help us all if the knee-jerk reactionists were listened to and we fired the entire management every 2-3 years.

AL-MO
08-13-2009, 04:10 PM
This is a typical North American critique right here ^

Mo has set us up well for the present and even better for the future. It may not be this year or even next year - but with our academy growing the way it has and the youth that is starting to expose itself to the first team. I am certain that TFC will be a successful club for a very long time when everything comes together.

Did you forget a smiley at the end of that Blades? :p


My point is, that if we don't make the playoffs I believe this season will have been a failure and Senor Mo should walk the plank for it.

EDIT: I don't think Mo has done a horrible job, but this is a results business. People need to be held accountbale.

Stryker
08-13-2009, 04:16 PM
well if he dropped all this dead wood, then shouldn't he be blamed for hiring all the dead wood? He's only cleaning up his own mess ;)
Yes and no.
To some degree he was trying to just fill the bench with decent players the first two years.
Lets be honest, we all love the team, but with exception of the hometown boys, players weren't exactly climbing the fences to get into BMO Field.

Beach_Red
08-13-2009, 04:23 PM
I am afraid the contract extension is a done deal..so my bitching wont do much but it makes me feel better ! I just believe you reward people based on results and not the promise of results


You're right, the ocntract extension is a done deal, so we might as well get used to it. There are pros and cons. I think it's a good idea for the club to set the standard that they won't be too quick to pull the trigger on a GM - that would only make it even more difficult to get quality guys to come to Toronto. Look how much trouble we have attracting players - the JDG fiasco should have been more of a wake-up call for us to realize that even Canadians don't want to come here for millions more and longer contracts than they will make in Europe. That will be true for managers, too. Also, the handling of drafts and the weird MLS roster rules has gone pretty well under Mo. And, not that it should matter, but the guy fully committed to Toronto, he moved his family here and bought a house.

The problems with the team seem to run deeper than the GM and the next one will have to deal with the same stuff. Someone worthwhile will demand a lot of money and a long-term contract. All I hear on this board is what a crappy, low-level league this is, so how do people expect to attract quality talent with short-term contracts and a reputation for firing people quickly?

Still, even with all that, it seems to early to be talking contract extension. Wait till the end of the year, at least.

BayernTFC
08-13-2009, 04:24 PM
I just believe you reward people based on results and not the promise of results
I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. Assembling the team is the manager's most important duty. I watched the team in year one and I watch the team now, and I have noticed a marked improvement in the quality of players and play. Do we still have problems? Yes. Should Mo get a contract extension right away instead of waiting for the end of the season? As a fan, I think such business should wait, but I'm not MLSE.

What I would like to know is how instrumental, if at all, was Mo in the Maurice Edu transfer to Rangers? Do any of you even miss Edu or notice a drop off in team performance since he left? Does Mo have connections in other football markets? Does such a connection help get players over to Toronto for a look? Did Mo have anything to do with Rohan Ricketts trialing for Aberdeen FC? Has he played a role in convincing Celtic and Benfica to play at BMO?

In the end, my impression is that all player contracts are with MLS and must meet their approval first. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. In this way, a manager on a MLS squad isn't a "manager" in the traditional football sense. More like a manager with training wheels on. Furthermore, in such a case, is it then not also important to employ someone that the league likes as well?




All this means nothing if we don't make it to the playoffs.While missing the playoffs would be very disappointing, and while it should probably factor into MLSE's decision on MO, it doesn't mean that long-term aspirations for the team are worthless endeavours. The ability to bring fresh faces into camp is not a waste no matter how the team performs.

wzhxvy
08-13-2009, 04:25 PM
This is a typical North American critique right here ^

Mo has set us up well for the present and even better for the future. It may not be this year or even next year - but with our academy growing the way it has and the youth that is starting to expose itself to the first team. I am certain that TFC will be a successful club for a very long time when everything comes together.


North American critque ? Yes measure people based on results and reward fairly has worked horribly for North America and our standard of living.

2-3 year is not long enough to make the playoffs in the MLS ?

mdc 77
08-13-2009, 04:33 PM
I like Mo, but I'm not going to go and give him "kudos" over these changes. He brought in these sub-par players, Marco Velez for one. Way over his head from day one with the club.

Look, we've improved over the last two seasons and thats good. We have some good young players that if they stick around may give us a very solid club in 2 years time. I'll be ready to judge Mo after year 5. You have to give him time to build the club, a club from scratch. So i have the patience to wait till year 5, at that point we better be a top club in MLS, no reason why we shouldn't be.

wzhxvy
08-13-2009, 04:34 PM
I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. Assembling the team is the manager's most important duty. I watched the team in year one and I watch the team now, and I have noticed a marked improvement in the quality of players and play. Do we still have problems? Yes. Should Mo get a contract extension right away instead of waiting for the end of the season? As a fan, I think such business should wait, but I'm not MLSE.

What I would like to know is how instrumental, if at all, was Mo in the Maurice Edu transfer to Rangers? Do any of you even miss Edu or notice a drop off in team performance in the team since he left? Does Mo have connections in other football markets? Does such a connection help get players over to Toronto for a look? Did Mo have anything to do with Rohan Ricketts trialing for Aberdeen FC? Has he played a role in convincing Celtic and Benfica to play at BMO?

In the end, my impression is that all player contracts are with MLS and must meet their approval first. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. In this way, a manager on a MLS squad isn't a "manager" in the traditional football sense. More like a manager with training wheels on. Furthermore, in such a case, is it then not also important to employ someone that the league likes as well?




While missing the playoffs would be very disappointing, and while it should probably factor into MLSE's decision on MO, it doesn't mean that long-term aspirations for the team are worthless endeavours. The ability to bring fresh faces into camp is not a waste no matter how the team performs.


All reasonable arguments...

DangerRed
08-13-2009, 04:36 PM
This is a typical North American critique right here ^

Mo has set us up well for the present and even better for the future. It may not be this year or even next year - but with our academy growing the way it has and the youth that is starting to expose itself to the first team. I am certain that TFC will be a successful club for a very long time when everything comes together.

Oh yes, those stupid inferior North Americans with their idiotic, unfounded expectations. Please -- don't dress the lack of consistency of this club and Mo in some bullshit European veneer.

The only measure of success in sport is result. Nothing else. We're in year three and we're fighting for our lives to get a playoff spot, in no small part because of duds like Velez and Harmse.

Mo's doing well with many of the signings, so I'm not one to call for his head. At the same time, he's also signed a few howlers and he doesn't deserve kudos for that in the least.

Shakes McQueen
08-13-2009, 04:43 PM
Oh yes, those stupid inferior North Americans with their idiotic, unfounded expectations. Please -- don't dress the lack of consistency of this club and Mo in some bullshit European veneer.

The only measure of success in sport is result. Nothing else. We're in year three and we're fighting for our lives to get a playoff spot, in no small part because of duds like Velez and Harmse.

Mo's doing well with many of the signings, so I'm not one to call for his head. At the same time, he's also signed a few howlers and he doesn't deserve kudos for that in the least.

But this thread isn't about the retarded idea of giving Mo credit for the players he signed that haven't worked out. It's giving him kudos for doing the right thing, and getting rid of those shit players, so we can sign new players.

And while the measure of success in sports is "result", that doesn't necessarily mean immediate result. If it did, a manager like Arsene Wenger wouldn't be able to find work.

Mo hasn't done everything right, but I don't see the problem with giving him the written equivalent of a "thumbs up" when he does something right.

- Scott

Batman
08-13-2009, 04:46 PM
Good job, so far, MO. Heaven help us all if the knee-jerk reactionists were listened to and we fired the entire management every 2-3 years.


Or half the team after every game for that matter. :D

Shakes McQueen
08-13-2009, 04:48 PM
I think Toronto FC should take the unprecedented step of hiring 20 general managers next season.

Every time the team loses, we go to the next GM in the rotation. You win, you get to keep the job for the week.

That should make everyone happy.

- Scott

TFC USA
08-13-2009, 04:49 PM
Kudos to Mo do admitting he fucked up and dumping Velez.

I think he just saved a kitten's life doing that.

DangerRed
08-13-2009, 04:52 PM
I think Toronto FC should take the unprecedented step of hiring 20 general managers next season.

Every time the team loses, we go to the next GM in the rotation. You win, you get to keep the job for the week.

That should make everyone happy.

- Scott

I'll be curious to see what you post when this team doesn't make the playoffs because Nick Garcia breaks someone's legs in the box or Marvell Wynne forgets to keep his hands in his pockets.

Go MO!!!

Shakes McQueen
08-13-2009, 05:03 PM
I'll be curious to see what you post when this team doesn't make the playoffs because Nick Garcia breaks someone's legs in the box or Marvell Wynne forgets to keep his hands in his pockets.

Go MO!!!

I'll probably say the same thing I said before, regardless of what happens.

I don't think this team is playing well enough, but like I said before, I place that more on the coaching, than on the players we have. I think this team is playing below it's potential.

Any club that adds players like DeRo, Serioux, Frei, Gerba, and has players like Attakora play they way they have, should be playing significantly better than we currently are.

I'm really tired of the troglodytic concept that if you don't think our FO management needs to be completely turned over, you're just some shmuck who is willing to accept mediocrity. That's bullshit.

Anyone with eyeballs can see that our team needs to be better than it is. Is it not possible to have a simple disagreement on where the heart of the problem lies?

- Scott

Beach_Red
08-13-2009, 05:10 PM
I agree with this statement wholeheartedly. Assembling the team is the manager's most important duty. I watched the team in year one and I watch the team now, and I have noticed a marked improvement in the quality of players and play. Do we still have problems? Yes. Should Mo get a contract extension right away instead of waiting for the end of the season? As a fan, I think such business should wait, but I'm not MLSE.

What I would like to know is how instrumental, if at all, was Mo in the Maurice Edu transfer to Rangers? Do any of you even miss Edu or notice a drop off in team performance since he left? Does Mo have connections in other football markets? Does such a connection help get players over to Toronto for a look? Did Mo have anything to do with Rohan Ricketts trialing for Aberdeen FC? Has he played a role in convincing Celtic and Benfica to play at BMO?

In the end, my impression is that all player contracts are with MLS and must meet their approval first. Someone please correct me if I am wrong. In this way, a manager on a MLS squad isn't a "manager" in the traditional football sense. More like a manager with training wheels on. Furthermore, in such a case, is it then not also important to employ someone that the league likes as well?




Yes, the manager's position in MLS isn't like it is in Europe. It's not even like it is in the NBA or NHL - more like the NFL maybe where the coaches are well-known but it's hard to name a GM.

And, the rest of your points are good ones - we don't really have any idea who does what at TFC.

Still, no one should get a contract extension until the end of the season and only then if the team makes the playoffs. Of course, if people knew that going in, imagine the backroom deals that would be going on right now as guys tried to make sure they had jobs next year...

mclaren
08-13-2009, 05:56 PM
Good job, so far, MO. Heaven help us all if the knee-jerk reactionists were listened to and we fired the entire management every 2-3 years.

The Happy Clappers are the much bigger dangers.

DOMIN8R
08-13-2009, 05:58 PM
What's wrong with "happy"?

It's important to have a counter balance to the misery seeking haters and the perpetually dissatisfied..

Pachuco
08-13-2009, 06:46 PM
Even the best GM's in the world don't strike gold 100% of the time. But I think if you look at our acquisitions - especially this year - Mo does seem to be bringing in progressively better talent.

I really, honestly think Mo Johnston gets a lot of undue flack from the fans sometimes, for problems that can be more accurately attributed to poor coaching. And I think some of the players that have left Toronto, to go on and be far more prosperous elsewhere, are a testament to that suspicion.

However, unless we really catch fire down the stretch this season, I really think the onus is on Mo to bring in a high-level coach to better use the pieces he has brought to TO. And no matter what happens down the stretch, he needs to seriously address our defense - no more trial balloons and bandaids like Harmse, Velez, and Garcia running our back four.

Mo has done a decent job so far, in my opinion. But I DON'T think he deserves this rumoured two-year extension just yet. There are still problems he hasn't fixed.

- Scott

I actually agree with everything you said to a tee.

One of the examples of poor coaching decisions to me is Velez. Here is a guy who (I'm just about sure) Mo brought in to be quality depth. What happens is Carver likes him (probably cause he thought he was cute) and ends up benching Tebily and James who to me are by far better players, specially Tebily. What happenend next we all know. Tebiliy is gone for personal reasons (read between the lines why the fuck am I not playing over Velez) and then everyone in the world realizes Velez was never good enough to be on the first team in the first place. Not now, and certainly not when Tebily was on the bench.

I agree with you, Mo has done a decent job, but at the end of the year, he better have something to show for it (playoffs in year three). He doesn't get any kudos from me until that happens.

Bombonera
08-13-2009, 06:53 PM
I admire Pachuco for putting this out there. I think there is some effort being made, and we know it.

I just think the real problem lies in the style of football we play. We need to be playing a tighter, more crisp game. And for what its worth, I think MO is to blame in that regard.

Can he cause TFC to evolve. I am not so sure....

Shakes McQueen
08-13-2009, 06:59 PM
I actually agree with everything you said to a tee.

One of the examples of poor coaching decisions to me is Velez. Here is a guy who (I'm just about sure) Mo brought in to be quality depth. What happens is Carver likes him (probably cause he thought he was cute) and ends up benching Tebily and James who to me are by far better players, specially Tebily. What happenend next we all know. Tebiliy is gone for personal reasons (read between the lines why the fuck am I not playing over Velez) and then everyone in the world realizes Velez was never good enough to be on the first team in the first place. Not now, and certainly not when Tebily was on the bench.

I agree with you, Mo has done a decent job, but at the end of the year, he better have something to show for it (playoffs in year three). He doesn't get any kudos from me until that happens.

My own opinion is that, if we don't make the playoffs this season, the coach has to go. Mo gets one more chance to bring in a class coach who can use the right formations and tactics for our players, in order to get us to the playoffs.

If that fails, then I think Mo needs to take responsibility for failing to find both a coach who can use the pieces properly, and the right pieces to get the job done.

I'm reluctant to blame Mo for not finding that coach this season, because he was left in a tough spot by Carver suddenly quitting, and I think giving Cummins a shot was the right thing to do at the time. Plus, it still remains to be seen if his faith in Cummins will be rewarded, since this season isn't over yet.

But to reiterate - if we don't make the playoffs, the coaching needs to be held responsible, and Mo needs to FINALLY address the clusterfuck that is our defense. And that might mean making tough moves, like removing Brennan at LB, Garcia at CB, Wyne at RB, etc. I've personally had it with the half-assed attempts to fix our defense, while we continue to stock up on more and more midfielders and attackers.

I think Mo made a lot of good player moves this season, starting at the draft. We shipped out some of our dead weight and garbage, and generally replaced them with higher quality. But our coaching is still mind-boggling far too often.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
08-13-2009, 07:03 PM
I just think the real problem lies in the style of football we play. We need to be playing a tighter, more crisp game. And for what its worth, I think MO is to blame in that regard.

Can he cause TFC to evolve. I am not so sure....

See, this is what I don't get. How can you hold Mo responsible for the style of game we play, and not the coaching staff?

It wasn't Mo's decision to leave Gerba up front on an island by himself in both of the Puerto Rico games. It wasn't Mo's decision to leave Barrett in for the entire Columbus game, when he was clearly losing his cool. It hasn't been Mo's decision to play Dichio all of about 6 minutes the past few games combined.

These are all tactical, coaching problems. This has nothing to do with what players we bring in, and everything to do with how they are being used.

- Scott

ensco
08-13-2009, 07:04 PM
I was a staunch Mo supporter through last season. I still see what others here see. But Mo's made such a dog's breakfast in terms of coaching/mangerial talent here - Gansler couldn't stand him, the whole Carver mess, Cummins is woefully underqualified - that I'm now in the other camp.

I like Mo, but he's not getting it done.

MisterMacphisto
08-13-2009, 07:08 PM
We're on track to miss the playoffs for the 3rd year in a row.
Kudos to Mo!

:facepalm:

Hey look it, Chad Barret kicked the soccer ball. Kudos to Chad!

Bombonera
08-13-2009, 07:16 PM
woah. Wiat a seocnd. Shakes, MO is sole to blame for Carver. Carver was terrible. And based on what litle we know about his past, screams trouble. I mean, we are talking aout a guy who thought bringing Robert in was a great coup. And then benched our starters becasue of his keep your jersey thing.

Don't give MO a pass on Carver. Left in the lurch? No way. A terrible decision we as fans are being punished for!

olegunnar
08-13-2009, 07:20 PM
What's wrong with "happy"?

It's important to have a counter balance to the misery seeking haters and the perpetually dissatisfied..

I would love to be happy. It's great being happy. You have no idea how much I'd like to be happy.

My personal beef is that there is little to no rational discussion, and that many...like you just did...just throw out labels and walk away without engaging in the coversation.

For example...
If I were to post, I think Mo has done a bad job, we're on pace to miss the playoffs in a league built for parity or a 3rd straight year. Yes our point totals are increasing on a year by year basis, but at what cost? We use our equalization payments (allocations) to buy old players...that other teams want to get rid of so they can build a foundation. Players like DeRo, Serioux, Garcia, Guevara...all bought with allocation money...money we're granted for being a bad team.
If I said that...I'd get a whole lot of..."you call yourself a supporter?"...."he we have more points than last year"....or " hey man MLS is tricky just be happy we have a team"....or my favourite "You're a Mo hater I'm not wasting my time replying".
Not one reply that responds to the post.

I digress...I just wanted to dispell the notion that those dissatisfied with Mo and the team's performance get some sort of sick enjoyment out of our constant and repeated failures.

Bombonera
08-13-2009, 07:20 PM
Shakes - FYI -I don't think that Cummins make the decisions. I think he gets a clear directive from MO. I think that CUmmins was placed as the coach by MO so that he could better cover up the Carver Fiasco. if not, perhasp he might have stepped up and coached himself. he could have. I can't believe his managerial duties are that taxing. In fact, what has he really accomplished a a manager since Carver left? Seriously?

ensco
08-13-2009, 07:24 PM
^olegunnar, you speak for me on this issue. I have no beef with Domin8r, who is a thoughtful poster, btw, but he's wrong about this.

Excepting the outpouring of emotion after the loss at Vancouver, I've found that there's far more "demonizing of anyone being critical", and far less "perpetual hating" on here.

There are a couple of posters in particular who are revelling hourly in this "you're not a supporter if you're critical" stuff. I'm not going to name names, don't feel like a pointless fight, most here know who they are.

mighty_torontofc_2008
08-13-2009, 07:35 PM
Shakes - FYI -I don't think that Cummins make the decisions. I think he gets a clear directive from MO. I think that CUmmins was placed as the coach by MO so that he could better cover up the Carver Fiasco. if not, perhasp he might have stepped up and coached himself. he could have. I can't believe his managerial duties are that taxing. In fact, what has he really accomplished a a manager since Carver left? Seriously?


he Won the Canadian Championship!! what did you expect when he took over going unbeaten the rest of the season? we are still in a playoff hunt,
and for a 3rd year club thats not bad...Cummins is running the show and needs another year to really see what he can do..changing the managers
Carver,Cummins every time a slump happens is not the way to go..Lets judge Cummins after next season

DOMIN8R
08-13-2009, 08:11 PM
I would love to be happy. It's great being happy. You have no idea how much I'd like to be happy.

My personal beef is that there is little to no rational discussion, and that many...like you just did...just throw out labels and walk away without engaging in the coversation.

For example...
If I were to post, I think Mo has done a bad job, we're on pace to miss the playoffs in a league built for parity or a 3rd straight year. Yes our point totals are increasing on a year by year basis, but at what cost? We use our equalization payments (allocations) to buy old players...that other teams want to get rid of so they can build a foundation. Players like DeRo, Serioux, Garcia, Guevara...all bought with allocation money...money we're granted for being a bad team.
If I said that...I'd get a whole lot of..."you call yourself a supporter?"...."he we have more points than last year"....or " hey man MLS is tricky just be happy we have a team"....or my favourite "You're a Mo hater I'm not wasting my time replying".
Not one reply that responds to the post.

I digress...I just wanted to dispell the notion that those dissatisfied with Mo and the team's performance get some sort of sick enjoyment out of our constant and repeated failures.

My post was pointed at those who visit this board regularly. I will assume that you are not one of those people or, I stand by my post, and say you probably wish to remain unsatisfied.

If you are someone who comes to the board more than once a month, you have must have witnessed the nauseating amount of negativity regarding how bad Mo is, Carver is, Cummins is, MLS is, MLSE is, how bad each and every player, etc., has been at some point.

Perhaps you simply derive pleasure from hijacking threads. Like this thread - which is clearly labelled Kudos to Mo and not "What else is Mo doing wrong and what else can we bitch about now" - in spite of there being at least a 500 threads where you could park your disatisfied opinion.

If you have not yet had your fill of negative postings and feel the need to do so here, then you perhaps your inability to find happiness is not the real issue.

And for the record, no one suggested that those who are dissatisfied get some sort of sick enjoyment out it. So your drive by smear missed it's target.

But one has to wonder about those who choose to post rambling criticism, much of which is often factually incorrect (claiming opinion as fact), and do so over and over again as though posting it will eventually make it true or sway the other hundred or so who may read the post.

There is plenty of evidence on this board to suggest some people like to complain. It appears that their unhappiness is more gratifying to them than their own happiness.

ensco
08-13-2009, 08:30 PM
Perhaps you simply derive pleasure from hijacking threads. Like this thread - which is clearly labelled Kudos to Mo and not "What else is Mo doing wrong and what else can we bitch about now" - in spite of there being at least a 500 threads where you could park your disatisfied opinion.



Domin8r, I come in peace, but isn't it OK to disagree with the point of the thread? Isn't it sort of a fact of life that 3/4 of all threads turn into a referendum on Mo one way or the other?

DOMIN8R
08-14-2009, 06:36 AM
Domin8r, I come in peace, but isn't it OK to disagree with the point of the thread? Isn't it sort of a fact of life that 3/4 of all threads turn into a referendum on Mo one way or the other?

1. Yes. I think that's it's OK to dissagree with the point of a thread. However, I don't think that everyone should feel that it's necessary to post an opposing opinion of everything that they read and don't agree with. It makes threads on this board repetetive, off topic and whiny. I count myself among the many who simply dissagree with some posts/threads and don't feel the need to post every single one of my opposing views.

2. Yes. It's true that many threads are erroded and shift to complaints against the team, management, players, each other, etc. I suggest that by condoning it we share the blame for why this board is becoming a less appealing place to visit. The negativity towards aspects of the team is exhausting at times. Rather than accept this as innevitable, why not take back control and insist that threads keep their shape and tone and stay on topic.

So....:topic:


I would like to conclude by sharing what I found on the "Canada Weekly Report" on BS (dated July 29,2009). In it, it appears that the author gives kudos to Mo as well. He gives Mo a A-. And Rohan Rickets posts (may not really be him) a comment on how much $$$ there is to be made in the Toronto market.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/blog.php?b=6171

Oldtimer
08-14-2009, 07:15 AM
See, this is what I don't get. How can you hold Mo responsible for the style of game we play, and not the coaching staff?

It wasn't Mo's decision to leave Gerba up front on an island by himself in both of the Puerto Rico games. It wasn't Mo's decision to leave Barrett in for the entire Columbus game, when he was clearly losing his cool. It hasn't been Mo's decision to play Dichio all of about 6 minutes the past few games combined.

These are all tactical, coaching problems. This has nothing to do with what players we bring in, and everything to do with how they are being used.

- Scott

... and the coaching staff has made it clear that Mo doesn't tell them what to do, which is exactly how it should be. Who wants a GM who "back-seat" coaches?

We know that Mo doesn't agree with everything that Cummins has done. Mo himself said when asked that he thought that Dichio should get more playing time. However, it's not his job to tell Cummins "put Dichio in earlier." It's his job to replace Cummins at the season's end if he doesn't perform.

IMO Mo has one more chance beyond Cummins to find a good coach for this team, should Cummins not pan out. If it becomes clear that after a second permanent coach, that Mo can't find good coaches, then it's time to question Mo's ability as GM.

It's normal in almost any NA sport to give a GM at least two coaches of their choosing before you decide to turf him out. Cummins doesn't count, as he was a mid-season fill-in for Carver when Carver decided he couldn't handle MLS any more.

ensco
08-14-2009, 07:15 AM
1. Yes. I think that's it's OK to dissagree with the point of a thread. However, I don't think that everyone should feel that it's necessary to post an opposing opinion of everything that they read and don't agree with. It makes threads on this board repetetive, off topic and whiny. I count myself among the many who simply dissagree with some posts/threads and don't feel the need to post every single one of my opposing views.




This is a great point. The best posts are always the ones that add something to the discussion.

Limani_Ole
08-14-2009, 09:31 AM
on another point..

Our high roster turnover must has a negative effect on players and how well they play with each other, especially in the back four. Although I agree improving the squad through new aquisitions is necessary.. ie Fellinga.. at some point you have to live by your signings and let them play out a season.. otherwise you can cause more harm than good..

Darlofletch
08-14-2009, 09:51 AM
This is a typical North American critique right here ^

Mo has set us up well for the present and even better for the future. It may not be this year or even next year - but with our academy growing the way it has and the youth that is starting to expose itself to the first team. I am certain that TFC will be a successful club for a very long time when everything comes together.

How is this a "North American" critique? Do you and others who post similar comments think that supporters in Europe, south america or elsewhere just sit back happily while success repeatedly doesn't happen. and that they don't get frustrated and demand change? Because if so, you are severely mistaken.

On topic, yes, dropping the players mentioned has been a good thing, so kudos to mo for doing that.

Cambridge_Red
08-14-2009, 09:59 AM
Thanks for nothing

Fort York Redcoat
08-14-2009, 10:11 AM
on another point..

Our high roster turnover must has a negative effect on players and how well they play with each other, especially in the back four. Although I agree improving the squad through new aquisitions is necessary.. ie Fellinga.. at some point you have to live by your signings and let them play out a season.. otherwise you can cause more harm than good..

It's a tricky decision to make. To stick with a struggling squad results-wise for a season is tough when our league depends upon signings in the middle of the season when most of the rest of the world is free to move. Great point.

Shep
08-14-2009, 10:16 AM
Oh yes, those stupid inferior North Americans with their idiotic, unfounded expectations. Please -- don't dress the lack of consistency of this club and Mo in some bullshit European veneer.

The only measure of success in sport is result. Nothing else. We're in year three and we're fighting for our lives to get a playoff spot, in no small part because of duds like Velez and Harmse.

Mo's doing well with many of the signings, so I'm not one to call for his head. At the same time, he's also signed a few howlers and he doesn't deserve kudos for that in the least.

Man, way to put words into his mouth.

He never said stupid, inferior or idiotic. You inferred that, don't try to make it seem like he was saying that at all.

mmmikey
08-14-2009, 10:21 AM
as a supporter im still happy with Mo's overall performance. he has done a good job of team building, and i do share the belief of some that the real reason for our struggles this year is poor performances and tactical decisions which has undermined our potential.

HOWEVER, i see peoples point. it's also up to Mo to pick the coaching staff, etc. carver was only here for little more than 1 season before he left, so i will give Mo the benefit of the doubt with his appointment of Cummins. i doubt he saw it coming, and it's not easy to get a top coach midseason without paying for it (i.e. tottenham paid portsmouth for redknapp).

if issues with team performance/tactics continue while Mo stands pat and states that Cummins is doing a great job, then i may change my mind. this roster was largely assembled BEFORE Cummins was the main man, so for all we know the team doesn't have the personel he wants. Maybe the addition of Felinga and Van Dijk will help with that, maybe not.. (but i still think thats no excuse since i believe a manager should make the most of what he has)

for now, good job Mo, but your running out of slack.. your assembling a good squad, but u need to assemble a good staff too

Shep
08-14-2009, 10:27 AM
Agreed. All this means nothing if we don't make it to the playoffs.

The success of a Football club should be measured over the long-term, and we are steadily improving. Bringing in new players is about growing the club and building the performance on the pitch, obviously. It's not a recipe for instant success, nothing in footy ever is.

If we make the playoffs I'll be thrilled and ecstatic, but to say that all of Mo's work this year means nothing if we don't make the playoffs is short-sighted IMO.

The year may well turn out to be a failure, but these are building blocks, and regardless of the outcome of the season they are necessary. If Mo wasn't working on our squad we'd wouldn't be going anywhere, anytime, this year or next.

Improving the club is hardly meaningless.

Fort York Redcoat
08-14-2009, 10:32 AM
Agreed. All this means nothing if we don't make it to the playoffs.

I disagree. Not with the playoffs being a mark of improvement but that it's what qualifies as enough.

I would have accepted quarterfinal or better in the champions league and not made the playoffs.

Unless we win the MLS cup the playoffs don't mean much to me.

Dirk Diggler
08-14-2009, 10:51 AM
Obviously this is a "North American" thing ... in Europe, they don't have the playoffs system that we have in order to gauge a team's success or lack thereof. I think that it is a perfectly reasonable expectation for us to have made the playoffs at least once by the end of this season. I know a lot of people will be satisfied with the Canada Cup victory but come on ... seriously? I'm supposed to care about how we barely won the rights to face a USL team (Puerto Rico) after bettering two other USL teams? I know that was an improvement considering how we did not even do that last season but please ... don't make it seem as if making the playoffs is some sort of completely unreasonable expectation on our behalf. Personally I don't have any expectations regarding the MLS Cup or the Supporters Shield. I just want the team to start making the playoffs.

jloome
08-14-2009, 10:56 AM
I was a staunch Mo supporter through last season. I still see what others here see. But Mo's made such a dog's breakfast in terms of coaching/mangerial talent here - Gansler couldn't stand him, the whole Carver mess, Cummins is woefully underqualified - that I'm now in the other camp.

I like Mo, but he's not getting it done.

The arguments in favour of him never seem to get beyond "it's coachign that's the problem, not Mo."

He hires the coaches. He's responsible for that.
He hires the players. He's responsible for that.
He cuts the players. He's responsible for that.

He's responisble for everything team-related. He's the general manager. Why does he get a pass for picking the wrong pieces? Excuse the cute analogy, but a guy playing chess doesn't get to blame his bishop or his queen when he loses the game.

The season is the game, Mo's the chess player. So far, he's 0-3.

I don't really care -- to be honest -- whether he stays or goes. I don't even care if we win the league anytime soon. What I care about is having a football team that's good and consistent enough to look like that victory might be possible. Right now, we don't even have that. We can't even play with a consistent level of energy and determination BECAUSE WE HAVE THE WRONG PIECES IN PLACE.

A coach can only work with what he's given.

Even the people who support Mo don't seem to deny that, they just say "oh well, we'll get it MORE right next year."

Well, yeah, if you fling shit at the wall for long enough, some of it will stick, and you might end up with somethign approximating art. But if the plan of action is to continue what hasn't worked so far, you're not playing the odds.

To me, it's simple: we make the playoffs and we get past the first round, or Mo should go. If MLSE is strictly basing assessment of his performance on revenue, we'll never win a fucking title until disgust starts to drive some of the crowd away.

colman1860
08-14-2009, 11:00 AM
:lol:

See, this is what happens when two families live in the same house. Shouldn't The Lions get their own den? :D

We'd love to, but apparently Rummenigge and co like having us around too much...

rocker
08-14-2009, 11:00 AM
What I care about is having a football team that's good and consistent enough to look like that victory might be possible.

the team is 7-7-6.... that's pretty consistent... 13 of 20 games ended in a victory or a tie, which means the majority of the time victory is possible.

I think what you mean is that the team can never lose on its own accord, right? ;)

i said Mo should have 3 years and playoffs in the third year is a demand, not an option. But I think TFC has been in most games this season. Victory was possible even in many of the losses (think of the 2-1 lead against Columbus that held til the 76th minute).

Roogsy
08-14-2009, 11:00 AM
I disagree. Not with the playoffs being a mark of improvement but that it's what qualifies as enough.

I would have accepted quarterfinal or better in the champions league and not made the playoffs.

Unless we win the MLS cup the playoffs don't mean much to me.

So being that we didn't make the quarterfinal...what measure of improvement should we apply to this team?

Is 3 points better than last year really that satisfactory? Because at this rate, that's what it's looking like. In a league with such parity...we are going to accept mediocrity?

jloome
08-14-2009, 11:04 AM
I'm really tired of the troglodytic concept that if you don't think our FO management needs to be completely turned over, you're just some shmuck who is willing to accept mediocrity. That's bullshit.- Scott

Yeah, when stated that ridiculously Scott, but that's not what most people here are saying, and as a generally reasonable poster I'd think you'd recognize that.

This isn't about "our FO management", it's about our GM, who is responsible for ALL of this. That's the job of a GM, to ultimately be responsible for the successes and failures on the pitch.

And if people keep arguing with you then they can't agree to disagree with you. That may be because you're not really backing up the argument, just asking people to live with your position. If I could see a logical thread in it, but just disagreed with the outcome that would make sense.

But it's not logical to simply say "we all see the technical ability of the players, so it must be the coach" (and no semantics over the quotes please, I'm paraphrasing your post.)

That's not how any pro level of soccer works. Players are successful first and foremost not for their technical ability but for their ability to read and udnerstand the game, and to remain focussed on their best options on the pitch as a team. We can have all the step-over masters west of Britain and it won't help if the players don't have the right mental approach to the game.

That isn't coached. It can be partially brought out through motivation, but the ability or lack thereof to read the game is part of a player's skill package. We have an abundance who lack that ability.

It's usually most obvious on defence and that's where we've seen the most turnover. and nearly all of the defenders who've left have been known as technically good, but just not very positionally bright. Julius James: ball watcher. Marco Velez: ballwatcher. Olivier Tebily: Probably our best defender on theface of what we actually saw, but his career-long nickname was "Bombscare" because he was so inclined to tune out of games, even with the ball in his tema's own end.

This isn't about their skill on the ball, Scott. They're just not the right players to gel together. That's Mo's responsibility.

jloome
08-14-2009, 11:06 AM
the team is 7-7-6.... that's pretty consistent... 13 of 20 games ended in a victory or a tie, which means the majority of the time victory is possible.

I think what you mean is that the team can never lose on its own accord, right? ;)

i said Mo should have 3 years and playoffs in the third year is a demand, not an option. But I think TFC has been in most games this season. Victory was possible even in many of the losses (think of the 2-1 lead against Columbus that held til the 76th minute).

Yeah, consistently mediocre. Yes, I mean I expect my team to look like they might win. Even in most of the games we've tied, we've spent the last 10 minutes under siege, so I disagree with the supposition that "victory is possible."

Yeah, perhaps technically. But in a lot of those games, in which we dominate the first 10 minutes on skill alone then lose the plot on concentration and reading the opposition, we spent the last two-thirds or third of the game under offensive pressure.

Dirk Diggler
08-14-2009, 11:07 AM
the team is 7-7-6.... that's pretty consistent... 13 of 20 games ended in a victory or a tie, which means the majority of the time victory is possible.

I think what you mean is that the team can never lose on its own accord, right? ;)

i said Mo should have 3 years and playoffs in the third year is a demand, not an option. But I think TFC has been in most games this season. Victory was possible even in many of the losses (think of the 2-1 lead against Columbus that held til the 76th minute).

27 out of a possible 60 points is consistent? I think the word you are looking for is "mediocre".

Shep
08-14-2009, 11:08 AM
Yeah, when stated that ridiculously Scott, but that's not what most people here are saying, and as a generally reasonable poster I'd think you'd recognize that.

This isn't about "our FO management", it's about our GM, who is responsible for ALL of this. That's the job of a GM, to ultimately be responsible for the successes and failures on the pitch.

And if people keep arguing with you then they can't agree to disagree with you. That may be because you're not really backing up the argument, just asking people to live with your position. If I could see a logical thread in it, but just disagreed with the outcome that would make sense.

But it's not logical to simply say "we all see the technical ability of the players, so it must be the coach" (and no semantics over the quotes please, I'm paraphrasing your post.)

That's not how any pro level of soccer works. Players are successful first and foremost not for their technical ability but for their ability to read and udnerstand the game, and to remain focussed on their best options on the pitch as a team. We can have all the step-over masters west of Britain and it won't help if the players don't have the right mental approach to the game.

That isn't coached. It can be partially brought out through motivation, but the ability or lack thereof to read the game is part of a player's skill package. We have an abundance who lack that ability.

It's usually most obvious on defence and that's where we've seen the most turnover. and nearly all of the defenders who've left have been known as technically good, but just not very positionally bright. Julius James: ball watcher. Marco Velez: ballwatcher. Olivier Tebily: Probably our best defender on theface of what we actually saw, but his career-long nickname was "Bombscare" because he was so inclined to tune out of games, even with the ball in his tema's own end.

This isn't about their skill on the ball, Scott. They're just not the right players to gel together. That's Mo's responsibility.

...and he is bringing in new players to fix the leaks... hence this thread.

jloome
08-14-2009, 11:09 AM
...and he is bringing in new players to fix the leaks... hence this thread.

They're his leaks. That's the point of the criticism. How many chances does a GM get to pick the right players before it's obvious he's not going to establish a track record of success. Three years? Five years? 10 Years?

Shep
08-14-2009, 11:13 AM
27 out of a possible 60 points is consistent? I think the word you are looking for is "mediocre".

Points range from 10 to 38.

We are above average.

The consistency in MLS can not be measured by European league standards, things are much more level here due to the $ issue.

There aren't any amazing clubs from what I see, just good runs. Chivas started with one, now they sit with us, and Houston who has 38 pts have played 2 games more than us, and have only drawn and loss 1 less...

Why don't people get this? Why is everyone crying doom? We are a contender, I don't care what the magical jumping % machine tells you, it's all in the air still.

jloome
08-14-2009, 11:19 AM
Points range from 10 to 38.

We are above average.

The consistency in MLS can not be measured by European league standards, things are much more level here due to the $ issue.

There aren't any amazing clubs from what I see, just good runs. Chivas started with one, now they sit with us, and Houston who has 38 pts have played 2 games more than us, and have only drawn and loss 1 less...

Why don't people get this? Why is everyone crying doom? We are a contender, I don't care what the magical jumping % machine tells you, it's all in the air still.

It's not that we disagree with you statistically, Shep, you're right; a "one-third" chance may well be as good as a "one-half" chance with this much league parity.

The problem is I see a lot of fans on this board, myself included, who simply don't have confidence that this team is the one to break out of that parity and actually challenge for anything. They're not even paritcularly cohesive in their buildup.

Sure, DC and Houston and Chicago are all just a few wins away. But when they play, they have buildup, movement off the ball, tactical cohesion. They can't finish any better, for the most, or pass any better, for the most part, than we can. Yet they have players who read the game well enough to offer the ball holder appropriate level of support, to move into space off the ball and offer tactical options, to get out of their typical positional zones when necessary and to back up other players who do the same.

This is bread-and-butter stuff that is the purpose of most of the positional drilling they do in practice. And yet, we don't seem to ever actually use it to advance; instead, we fall back on individual skill players perfoming the near-miraculous.

That's what people are trying to reflect. It's not defeatism, or we all wouldn't watch every minute of every game. It's realism.

Beach_Red
08-14-2009, 11:29 AM
This isn't about "our FO management", it's about our GM, who is responsible for ALL of this. That's the job of a GM, to ultimately be responsible for the successes and failures on the pitch.


Are you sure they're completely seperate in this league and on this team? A league that has something as bizarre as the DP rule, a one-entity league that holds all the players' contracts would seem to cause GM-FO-league office problems right away.

My fear is that the problems run a lot deeper than GM but we're going to get into a revolving door of GMs and never make any progress.

But sure, dump this guy and give the next guy one year to make the playoffs and group stages of the Champions League. Seattle can do it (maybe) so we should.

(I'd just like to be a fly on the wall at the interviews for that job...)

jloome
08-14-2009, 11:38 AM
Are you sure they're completely seperate in this league and on this team? A league that has something as bizarre as the DP rule, a one-entity league that holds all the players' contracts would seem to cause GM-FO-league office problems right away.

My fear is that the problems run a lot deeper than GM but we're going to get into a revolving door of GMs and never make any progress.

But sure, dump this guy and give the next guy one year to make the playoffs and group stages of the Champions League. Seattle can do it (maybe) so we should.

(I'd just like to be a fly on the wall at the interviews for that job...)

LOL, "Why yes, of course I think I can win it all the first year, takes us to the CCL final and give Utd. a good run at the Club World Cup."

Beach_Red
08-14-2009, 12:40 PM
LOL, "Why yes, of course I think I can win it all the first year, takes us to the CCL final and give Utd. a good run at the Club World Cup."


Well, clearly when Mo went to the interview and said it would take five years to get to the Cup, most people here would have said, "Next!" Which would have been Frank Yallop, wouldn't it? Though I wonder how many years he's planning to get San ose to the final.

So, we don't make the playoffs and fire Mo. I'm fine with that. But then what does the next guy say? "We'll be in the MLS Cup (if we could just talk about that, it would be fine) in ___ years." How many do you give him? Because that will tell you what kind of candidates you'll get.

So, how many?

olegunnar
08-14-2009, 12:49 PM
Well, clearly when Mo went to the interview and said it would take five years to get to the Cup, most people here would have said, "Next!" Which would have been Frank Yallop, wouldn't it? Though I wonder how many years he's planning to get San ose to the final.

So, we don't make the playoffs and fire Mo. I'm fine with that. But then what does the next guy say? "We'll be in the MLS Cup (if we could just talk about that, it would be fine) in ___ years." How many do you give him? Because that will tell you what kind of candidates you'll get.

So, how many?

I wonder what the short list was.
I wonder why they picked Mo since he had no previous managerial successes at all in MLS.


The way you frame it (and I know you're just hypothesising, not stating facts) MLSE would have had Mo ahead of this guy on their list which makes ZERO sense:

In 2001, Yallop was named head coach for the San Jose Earthquakes, just two days before the MLS SuperDraft. During the pre-season, Yallop acquired Jeff Agoos, Landon Donovan, Dwayne DeRosario, Manny Lagos, Ramiro Corrales and Ronnie Ekelund, as well as assistant coach Dominic Kinnear. In his first year, Yallop proceeded to lead the San Jose Earthquakes to their first MLS Championship.

Red Skies At Night
08-14-2009, 12:49 PM
I agree with jloome's assertion that we don't have the right pieces (although I think that's true of many MLS clubs) and I agree Mo is responsible for this. But we have to replace Mo with another GM who's proven they can win in this league. If that person is not available then I think letting Mo go and giving the job to someone who doesn't understand the intricacies of this league and its unique player rules will not move us any further ahead and could just cause more turmoil for seasons to come.

However, giving Mo a contract extension 3 years into a 5 year deal is a head scratcher for me.

TFC07
08-14-2009, 12:55 PM
I agree with jloome's assertion that we don't have the right pieces (although I think that's true of many MLS clubs) and I agree Mo is responsible for this. But we have to replace Mo with another GM who's proven they can win in this league. If that person is not available then I think letting Mo go and giving the job to someone who doesn't understand the intricacies of this league and its unique player rules will not move us any further ahead and could just cause more turmoil for seasons to come.

However, giving Mo a contract extension 3 years into a 5 year deal is a head scratcher for me.

Source? I just hope this is just a silly rumour.

Beach_Red
08-14-2009, 12:57 PM
I wonder what the short list was.
I wonder why they picked Mo since he had no previous managerial successes at all in MLS.


The way you frame it (and I know you're just hypothesising, not stating facts) MLSE would have had Mo ahead of this guy on their list which makes ZERO sense:

In 2001, Yallop was named head coach for the San Jose Earthquakes, just two days before the MLS SuperDraft. During the pre-season, Yallop acquired Jeff Agoos, Landon Donovan, Dwayne DeRosario, Manny Lagos, Ramiro Corrales and Ronnie Ekelund, as well as assistant coach Dominic Kinnear. In his first year, Yallop proceeded to lead the San Jose Earthquakes to their first MLS Championship.


I was being a little sarcastic. My guess is Yallop turned down MLSE, at least under the same conditions that Mo accepted.

Probably the short list to manager an expansion team in Canada was a very, very short list. Likely anyone else wanted a five year contract and a lot more money to start with.

And even then, look at JDG - a longer term contract and a lot more money couldn't bring him to Toronto. It was probably the same way with any manager with any pedigree. I met a couple of the assistant coaches TFC had the first year and they hated Canada, their families were never going to come here and they wanted out as soon as possible (alcohol may have been a factor in their anti-Toronto ranting, but really, they couldn't get out fast enough).

It should be a little easier to get a quality manager next time, but seiously, what do you think the length of contract will have to be to manage at TFC?

TFC07
08-14-2009, 12:59 PM
By the way, this year's goal was to make it to the playoffs. Remember during pre-season how all players, coaching staffs and FO were saying their goal is to make it to the playoffs this season? So to say it's okay for TFC not to make it to the playoffs this season is BS! If TFC doesn't make it to the playoffs, then hopefully MLSE fires Mo.

To people who are supporting Mo here: If Mo is such a great GM, do you think other MLS teams will be lining up to try to hire Mo if he was let go by MLSE end of this season?

olegunnar
08-14-2009, 12:59 PM
So, we don't make the playoffs and fire Mo. I'm fine with that. But then what does the next guy say? "We'll be in the MLS Cup (if we could just talk about that, it would be fine) in ___ years." How many do you give him? Because that will tell you what kind of candidates you'll get.

So, how many?

So how many?
I see it as multiple grading curves with different timelines. Kind of like when you're building a business plan and you pick the 1 yr goals, the 3 yr goals and the 5 yr goals etc. etc.

If I were grading our new GM, I would set the expectation of the playoffs for every year. That would be the expection. Now I also know that sports is a funny business, MLS is a werid league, and sometimes things are out of your control. So at the same time I'd be grading the progress of the team. Things like:

1. our salary cap health. players cost money and we have a fixed amount to spend. How are we using our allocations? how are the contracts set up? Are they all back end loaded? are the risky players on long term deals when they should be on short term deals? Are thequality players locked up?

2. the performance of the coaches. He's responsible for his direct reports

3. the stability of the roster. From a cohesion standpoint, from a marketing standpoint...and most of all from a proof you're not just guessing and hoping something works standpoint.

4. the size of, abilities and age of the core group.

Like I've said in prior posts, I could live with losing...if there was a light at the end of the tunnel. Say for example we had a young core that was learning on the job, but after they've matured and gained experience they'd kick ass. On the flip side if the GM had mortgaged our future by buying a bunch of old guys...and we weren't doing well...that'd be a huge negative.

5. young player development. The goal is to be a succesfull franchise long term. Players dont' last for ever and you have to keep the talent pipeline flowing.

Basically indicators outside of the table that there is progress being made.

So the short answer to your question is....as soon as possible. However if the GM missed the playoffs and was succeeding the the 5 things I mentioned above then I would tell them they owe me one...they've got one more year to prove me right.

Dirk Diggler
08-14-2009, 01:13 PM
I also cannot believe that some people are advocating firing Cummins and hiring a new coach before firing Mo himself. What kind of GM puts his team through 4 different coaches in 4 consecutive seasons all the while missing playoffs and get to keep his job? When does the buck stop with the general manager?

Yohan
08-14-2009, 01:24 PM
I also cannot believe that some people are advocating firing Cummins and hiring a new coach before firing Mo himself. What kind of GM puts his team through 4 different coaches in 4 consecutive seasons all the while missing playoffs and get to keep his job? When does the buck stop with the general manager?
i suspect it's partially due to not knowing who is a good GM in MLS and who is available

kinda awkward to advocate firing someone, and sail into unknown. Mo at least is a known commodity...

Beach_Red
08-14-2009, 01:50 PM
So the short answer to your question is....as soon as possible. However if the GM missed the playoffs and was succeeding the the 5 things I mentioned above then I would tell them they owe me one...they've got one more year to prove me right.

Okay, so that's the team's POV. Now pretend you're the manager's agent. What do you demand for your client?

olegunnar
08-14-2009, 02:12 PM
Okay, so that's the team's POV. Now pretend you're the manager's agent. What do you demand for your client?

What do contract amounts and lengths have to do with performance reviews?

They can have a 5 year contract and get fired after 2. If you care about winning then the severance is worth it.

Cashcleaner
08-14-2009, 02:27 PM
For dropping all the dead wood in the last couple of months and bringing in alot of potential players on trial.
Was also happy that he pushed hard for De Guzman but wasn't willing to sell the farm or let the deal dangle forever.

:thumbsup:

We would have given up too much for De Guzman. He just wouldn't have fit in with the roster we have at the moment and I think it's for the best that he's going elsewhere. Maybe in a few years we'll see him in a red shirt, but not at the moment.

MisterMacphisto
08-14-2009, 02:28 PM
Points range from 10 to 38.

We are above average.

The consistency in MLS can not be measured by European league standards, things are much more level here due to the $ issue.

There aren't any amazing clubs from what I see, just good runs. Chivas started with one, now they sit with us, and Houston who has 38 pts have played 2 games more than us, and have only drawn and loss 1 less...

Why don't people get this? Why is everyone crying doom? We are a contender, I don't care what the magical jumping % machine tells you, it's all in the air still.


http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2671/3820610531_4118a68022_o.png

We are above average?? Currently in 9th place out of the playoffs. New England right behind us has 2 games on hand? Most of our games remaining on the road?

Year 3 and we are in great danger of not making the playoffs again, and some supporters are ok because this is "above average". It's quite shameful, the expectation levels of some supporters.

I'm personally sick and tired of hearing supporters "lowered expectations" and acceptance of us just barely being contenders, MoJo doing an "ok" job, things being "not to bad."

There should be one and only one expectation and one goal for supporters, players, FO, Managers and coaches, Paul B to the fucking water boys.... and that is for TFC to be #1 in the MLS.

Right now, there is so much acceptance of mediocrity and averageness its fucking sickening.

Kudos should go to DeRo and any player or supporter who only has that one goal in mind. But Kudos to Mo????
:banghead:

Limani_Ole
08-14-2009, 02:30 PM
Mo has to ultimately be held responsible for the teams success and failure.. and should be punished and rewarded accordingly..

at the moment we have only won the CCC.. I think we can all agree this should NOT warrant a 2 year contract extension before we have secured a playoff spot..

1 year extension with an option for a second would have made more sense at this point..

Red Skies At Night
08-14-2009, 02:36 PM
Mo has to ultimately be held responsible for the teams success and failure.. and should be punished and rewarded accordingly..

at the moment we have only won the CCC.. I think we can all agree this should NOT warrant a 2 year contract extension before we have secured a playoff spot..

1 year extension with an option for a second would have made more sense at this point..

if he is getting an extension (and admittedly I don't know this for a fact) then it should be broached in the 4th year, not now. The only way I would support this if I'm MLSE is if there is a real lack of available options, and while I don't know of any there's got to be other promising candidates for the role.

Darlofletch
08-14-2009, 02:53 PM
We would have given up too much for De Guzman. He just wouldn't have fit in with the roster we have at the moment and I think it's for the best that he's going elsewhere. Maybe in a few years we'll see him in a red shirt, but not at the moment.

It'd be nice to think Mo had a DP plan B when de Guzman turned him down. On that show filmed at the football factory, he said he wanted the DP to be in his late 20's rather than mid 30's, I can absolutely get behind that. He also said he wanted him to be Canadian, again i can get behind that. But how many players did that leave him with? Is there anyone that fits the bill other than De Guzman?

It's great to have a really good, perfect ideal plan A, but let's hope you've got a back up plan, maybe someone who'd be good for a year or two, then try again for De Guzman. I don't have any inside contacts, so maybe he has tried for a bunch of people, but it doesn't really seem that way. We're good enough now that a decent DP could make a difference, so let's have him.

Beach_Red
08-14-2009, 02:59 PM
What do contract amounts and lengths have to do with performance reviews?

They can have a 5 year contract and get fired after 2. If you care about winning then the severance is worth it.

I'm sure it makes a big difference to a coach or manager whether he signs a one year contract or a five year contract. Of course you care about winning, but these aren't fans, this is someone's job. He's going to negotiate as good a deal as he can for himself and his family. The choice the team has depends on how many other candidates there are for the position and what they're willing to work for.

Just as there aren't very many players in the world whose burning desire is to play for TFC, there aren't many managers getting up in the morning saying, "I hope today is the day TFC offers me a job!" Especially when they were an expansion team owned by a company with zero experence in soccer.

So, it's getting a little better but MLSE must be careful how they manage the position of manager to make sure they have as many candidates for the job as possible.

If the team is going to give a manager a short-term contract and demand immediate results, they'll have to pay far more than they're paying now or take a chance on another unproven manager who's willing to come here under those circumstances. If they pick the right one it could be great. Or, if they break out the big money they could do really well, but this is MLSE we're talking about, they don't take many risks.

In this league it's a mistake to put too much emphasis on the general manager. The problems here run a lot deeper and require a bigger fix. there should be grass and a DP before we worry about the GM position.

mmmikey
08-14-2009, 03:02 PM
there is two seperate points that keep getting muddied up in this thread..

A) Mo should be fired.
B) Mo should get an extension.

If you don't support A, it doesn't mean you support B.

There is a C.. Don't give him an extension, but don't fire him.. yet.

Everyone is 100% correct that he is ultimately responsible for every result at the club since he chooses both the coach and players. Some just believe he should get another year.. I don't think many ppl (with some exceptions) believe he actually deserves an extension. I hope it is just a bad rumor :(.

I want to give him 1 more chance to pick a good coach when he can do it in the offseason.

Beach_Red
08-14-2009, 03:04 PM
It'd be nice to think Mo had a DP plan B when de Guzman turned him down. On that show filmed at the football factory, he said he wanted the DP to be in his late 20's rather than mid 30's, I can absolutely get behind that. He also said he wanted him to be Canadian, again i can get behind that. But how many players did that leave him with? Is there anyone that fits the bill other than De Guzman?

It's great to have a really good, perfect ideal plan A, but let's hope you've got a back up plan, maybe someone who'd be good for a year or two, then try again for De Guzman. I don't have any inside contacts, so maybe he has tried for a bunch of people, but it doesn't really seem that way. We're good enough now that a decent DP could make a difference, so let's have him.


Yes, exactly. This is the biggest disappointment of the season. There should have been another DP in line in case JDG turned us down (although the fact he hasn't actually signed anywhere else means this is actually still open).

I like your idea to get someone else- I don't care if they're 40 if they can do the job - and then go for a Canadian under 30 again next year or the year after. You can probably figure out who that will be by looking at Canadians of the right age whose contracts are up the year you want to sign them.

For all we know MLSE's marketing department said the DP had to be Canadian. It's not like Mo has ever been too pro-Canadian with this team, why would he be for the DP?

But not having this Plan B ready is too big a mistake. A DP really would make a difference right now.

olegunnar
08-14-2009, 03:15 PM
I'm sure it makes a big difference to a coach or manager whether he signs a one year contract or a five year contract. Of course you care about winning, but these aren't fans, this is someone's job. He's going to negotiate as good a deal as he can for himself and his family. The choice the team has depends on how many other candidates there are for the position and what they're willing to work for.




I wasn't advocating a series of one year deals, like what is done sometimes.

I was just saying there's no use worrying about the length of the contract because they'll get what everyone else is getting. Say for example a 3 year plus 2 option.

If the guy isn't cutting it, then you let them go early and pay them off (and ask them to pretend like they quit for health reasons :rolleyes:). That's what I meant. The length of contract has no bearing on whether or not you keep someone...if you want to win.

Also you bring up the "available candidates" argument people like to pose. Any good organization would have a succession plan. On top of that there would be an ongoing list of candidates that Mo's boss should be monitoring. The odd call to this agent...or to that one...over the course of the year, not to mention chats over drinks at the league meetings, or a bump into in the hallways of Rio Tinto during the all star game...etc. etc. etc. and you'd have your finger on the pulse of market.

Pretend for a moment it's not soccer. It's any other corportate entity. We're not firing our FGM because we don't have a replacement lined up...is not exactly the typical response from a successful business.

If people are going to accept that this is a franchise not a club...and people are going to accept that MLSE is just a business and in it for money not in it for the love....then I think it's fair to expect this franchise run by a business...to act like a competent one.

Shep
08-14-2009, 03:30 PM
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2671/3820610531_4118a68022_o.png

We are above average?? Currently in 9th place out of the playoffs. New England right behind us has 2 games on hand? Most of our games remaining on the road?

Year 3 and we are in great danger of not making the playoffs again, and some supporters are ok because this is "above average". It's quite shameful, the expectation levels of some supporters.

I'm personally sick and tired of hearing supporters "lowered expectations" and acceptance of us just barely being contenders, MoJo doing an "ok" job, things being "not to bad."

There should be one and only one expectation and one goal for supporters, players, FO, Managers and coaches, Paul B to the fucking water boys.... and that is for TFC to be #1 in the MLS.

Right now, there is so much acceptance of mediocrity and averageness its fucking sickening.

Kudos should go to DeRo and any player or supporter who only has that one goal in mind. But Kudos to Mo????
:banghead:


That is the goal, FUCKING OBVIOUS.

Point is that this isn't a super league, we have sal caps, things aren't going to be a breeze for any club. Ups and downs are going to happen.

TFC is improving, not getting worse, it's a process.

And really, I couldn't care less what you are sick of hearing. I don't form my opinions or write my posts to please MisterMacphisto.

You'd sack Mo, bring in someone new (also I'd like to ask who you have in mind to succeed him?), and as soon as they fall short of your short term expectations, toss them out too, and start over. Mo isn't stagnant, he's working to improve the team. I'm not saying he's 100% but he's doing the club good IMO.

Go support manu or some other $uperclub, you'll have nothing to really worry about and you can stay nice and happy with a team that never fails.

Limani_Ole
08-14-2009, 03:58 PM
[quote=Shep;670025]That is the goal, FUCKING OBVIOUS.

You'd sack Mo, bring in someone new (also I'd like to ask who you have in mind to succeed him?), and as soon as they fall short of your short term expectations, toss them out too, and start over. Mo isn't stagnant, he's working to improve the team. I'm not saying he's 100% but he's doing the club good IMO.

[quote]

Who could succeed Mo? Im sure there is a few qualified people who wouldn't mind holding the coaching and manager position as Mo did.. We could steal Frank Yallop from SJ, or get Stephen Hart from the national team..

and 3 years seams like reasonable amount of time to get some results from your team.. I would hardly call that short term expectations..
I mean the team is expected to make the playoffs this year..

Beach_Red
08-14-2009, 04:40 PM
I wasn't advocating a series of one year deals, like what is done sometimes.

I was just saying there's no use worrying about the length of the contract because they'll get what everyone else is getting. Say for example a 3 year plus 2 option.

If the guy isn't cutting it, then you let them go early and pay them off (and ask them to pretend like they quit for health reasons :rolleyes:). That's what I meant. The length of contract has no bearing on whether or not you keep someone...if you want to win.

Also you bring up the "available candidates" argument people like to pose. Any good organization would have a succession plan. On top of that there would be an ongoing list of candidates that Mo's boss should be monitoring. The odd call to this agent...or to that one...over the course of the year, not to mention chats over drinks at the league meetings, or a bump into in the hallways of Rio Tinto during the all star game...etc. etc. etc. and you'd have your finger on the pulse of market.

Pretend for a moment it's not soccer. It's any other corportate entity. We're not firing our FGM because we don't have a replacement lined up...is not exactly the typical response from a successful business.

If people are going to accept that this is a franchise not a club...and people are going to accept that MLSE is just a business and in it for money not in it for the love....then I think it's fair to expect this franchise run by a business...to act like a competent one.


Yes, but we're not a successful business ;).

Well, we're a successful business, but we're not a successful team. Don't you think that has an effect on the potential candidates and wht they'll ask for?

I'm not saying don't fire him because there are no other options, I'm just saying be aware of the consequences of firing at different times.

We had this discussion just recently - all sports GM and coaches know that they'll be fired. that's a given. But these negotiations are just that - negotiations. TFC has always been negotiating form a position of no power -the worst place to negotiate from.

For all we know MLSE is actually running this like a proper business and they actually do have their finger on the pulse of the market and available candidates who are willing to come to Toronto and that's why this extension is being talked about.

And yes, you're right, the next manager will get what they all get. Maybe that's the problem, maybe that will get us just another mid-level manager that will keep us fighting for a playoff spot and no more.

Maybe if the team was to take a bold step and offer a big-money, long-term contract they would attract much better candidates.

They could still fire him after three years, they'd just have to keep paying him. They do it with hockey coaches.

Dirk Diggler
08-14-2009, 04:56 PM
i suspect it's partially due to not knowing who is a good GM in MLS and who is available

kinda awkward to advocate firing someone, and sail into unknown. Mo at least is a known commodity...

The same can be said about Cummins then. We can all create massive lists of managers we would like to see here in Toronto but we still do not know who might be available that will be successful in the MLS.

Whoop
08-14-2009, 05:04 PM
Some supporters remind me of this and should be featured in this skit.

0CRr-q9B1eI

And I laugh the same way.

Yohan
08-14-2009, 05:14 PM
The same can be said about Cummins then. We can all create massive lists of managers we would like to see here in Toronto but we still do not know who might be available that will be successful in the MLS.
yeah, but we have a better idea about coaches in MLS than GMs, so people are willing to make fire Cummins statements because they have a better idea of who's out there, and who have been successful in MLS

Shep
08-14-2009, 05:38 PM
Who could succeed Mo? Im sure there is a few qualified people who wouldn't mind holding the coaching and manager position as Mo did.. We could steal Frank Yallop from SJ, or get Stephen Hart from the national team..

and 3 years seams like reasonable amount of time to get some results from your team.. I would hardly call that short term expectations..
I mean the team is expected to make the playoffs this year..I'm not against either of them in any way, but I don't see why you'd want Yallop right now. San Jose is farther away from the playoffs than we are, regardless of the excuses that might be thrown out, and you'd want him as a GM over Mo? He may do better if he is pulling the players in as opposed to just coaching, but it's a gamble. And Stephen Hart? Really? Is this because they are Canadian-ish?

Mo apparently has decent scouting connections and from the players we are seeing pop up they spread wide.. again he is limited by the almighty $, but if they perform and we see playoffs... does that mean he has done a good job over the last 3 years?

I'm not a Mo-lover, I just don't get the hate he recieves from some people, and I guess I respond by trying to balance it out a bit. And honestly I can't think of anyone to replace him, but as someone mentioned - most of you who want him gone do have someone else in mind.

jloome
08-14-2009, 09:44 PM
I'm not against either of them in any way, but I don't see why you'd want Yallop right now. San Jose is farther away from the playoffs than we are, regardless of the excuses that might be thrown out, and you'd want him as a GM over Mo? He may do better if he is pulling the players in as opposed to just coaching, but it's a gamble. And Stephen Hart? Really? Is this because they are Canadian-ish?

Mo apparently has decent scouting connections and from the players we are seeing pop up they spread wide.. again he is limited by the almighty $, but if they perform and we see playoffs... does that mean he has done a good job over the last 3 years?

I'm not a Mo-lover, I just don't get the hate he recieves from some people, and I guess I respond by trying to balance it out a bit. And honestly I can't think of anyone to replace him, but as someone mentioned - most of you who want him gone do have someone else in mind.

I don't agree with your support for him -- I think he's had long enough, by traditional MLS standards -- but you're right that he's certainly done some things right, and that should weigh in his favour.

For one, I imagine one of the reasons MLSE might be giving him an extension is that he's done a hell of a job of building for future, assuming we can keep the likes of Frei, Cronin, Sanyang, Gomez etc here or sell them for large sums (MLSE will probably take that, even if the cap means we get sick of it. They're a business, first and foremost).

Really, with the right coaching this team could be dead good in a couple of seasons, and have players of "dynasty" age and pedigree.

But a) I don't think, based on the financial end, that we'll keep all those young players together and b) gambling on a young guns dynasty two years down the road still feels pretty shitty when you compare how we're doing against existing powerhouses and particularly against Seattle.

MLSE has the assets, the fan support to produce a winner -- or at least a more cohesive, competing team -- right now. But it hasn't happened.

Again, that's on Mo.

Beach_Red
08-15-2009, 08:42 AM
^ That's an interesting evaluation. It looks like MLSE hired Mo because he understands how MLS works, but his biggest failure has been trying to build a team for the future - which isn't how MLS works.

TorontoBlades
08-15-2009, 10:09 AM
Did you forget a smiley at the end of that Blades? :p


My point is, that if we don't make the playoffs I believe this season will have been a failure and Senor Mo should walk the plank for it.

EDIT: I don't think Mo has done a horrible job, but this is a results business. People need to be held accountbale.

Assume smileys at the end of all my comments :canada:

But I disagree that this is a results business - maybe for some. But as long as we're building the proper infrastructure at the club for long term success - that's more than good enough for me....regardless of results, and hardware (at this point in our existance)

v00d00daddy
08-15-2009, 11:37 AM
Assume smileys at the end of all my comments :canada:

But I disagree that this is a results business - maybe for some. But as long as we're building the proper infrastructure at the club for long term success - that's more than good enough for me....regardless of results, and hardware (at this point in our existance)


I'm kinda 50/50 on this. I do want to see results but I also want to build the team properly.

The question is: Is Mo building this team properly?

TFC07
08-15-2009, 12:02 PM
I'm kinda 50/50 on this. I do want to see results but I also want to build the team properly.

The question is: Is Mo building this team properly?

No he is not! This team lacks depth and future of TFC is questionable. If any of our young players play to their potential, do you think they'll stay in Toronto instead of going to Europe? If you look our salary cap situation, we got a lot of overpaid players who are killing our cap. Unless MLS raise cap next season, TFC aren't going to have a lot of money to spent to get players.

Why is Mo trying to get a DP Canadian player? This is just some kind of marketing plot to show that he cares about Canadian players after what he said about Canadian players in first season?

I can't believe MLSE is supporting Mo. What is wrong with them? MLSE needs to hire some real soccer people to help them understand how to build a proper soccer club that suits more North American game.

Bars92
08-15-2009, 02:18 PM
^Mojo has been around this league for a long time. I think he knows a lot about the North American game at this point. Unless he is just thick, you are saying..

TFC07
08-15-2009, 02:19 PM
^Mojo has been around this league for a long time. I think he knows a lot about the North American game at this point. Unless he is just thick, you are saying..

Has he had any success so far?

If he was let go today, do you think MLS teams will be lining up trying to hire him?

EDIT: Mo may know a thing or two about US soccer, but he doesn't know jack about Canadian soccer.

TorontoBlades
08-15-2009, 10:05 PM
No he is not! This team lacks depth and future of TFC is questionable. If any of our young players play to their potential, do you think they'll stay in Toronto instead of going to Europe? If you look our salary cap situation, we got a lot of overpaid players who are killing our cap. Unless MLS raise cap next season, TFC aren't going to have a lot of money to spent to get players.

Why is Mo trying to get a DP Canadian player? This is just some kind of marketing plot to show that he cares about Canadian players after what he said about Canadian players in first season?

I can't believe MLSE is supporting Mo. What is wrong with them? MLSE needs to hire some real soccer people to help them understand how to build a proper soccer club that suits more North American game.

I'm sorry but I must disagree with you. Our team's future is anything but questionable. I'd even go as far as to say that there are teams in the EPL with more questionable futures than us. Yes, I agree that we've overpaid players, but we also have a boat load of skilled younger players that are not taking up a lot of cap space. Mo's only mistake was underestimating how quickly some of these players would come around. And the players that we've overpaid are still very decent footballers that could help a lot of teams. For example, at the beginning of the year, who here would have thought that between Sanyang and Cronin, Robbo would now be disposable, obviously not Mo - at the beginning of the year Robbo was essential to our team, and Mo brought him back at the best value he could, which was a pay cut from what understand.

If our players get snapped up by richer clubs, we still get incentive - hopefully a greater percentage in a new bargaining agreement (but that's for another post). Do you miss Maurice Edu...??? I think we've more than replaced him, and he's on to bigger things...

Also, many bigger clubs would love to have a player like JDG play for them - there's nothing wrong with having a player like him in his prime play for our club...my friend you have it backwards, Mo wasn't looking for a Canadian DP, he was using the fact a potential DP was Canadian as incentive to lure him to our club.

Finally, I urge someone on this board to find me a person at another MLS club who's Mo's equivalent that you would rather have instead - I can't

Chevy
08-15-2009, 10:11 PM
^ That's an interesting evaluation. It looks like MLSE hired Mo because he understands how MLS works, but his biggest failure has been trying to build a team for the future - which isn't how MLS works.

The future? Looks pretty bright to me.

Frei - rookie
Cronin - rookie
White - rookie
Sanyang - rookie
Gomez - rookie
Nana - rookie (basically)

I realize you need to plug and play veterans to win in this league, but there is nothing wrong in putting talented younger players on the pitch. Sure you may lose them after a few years, but every league in the world save for three or four has the same problem.

TFC07
08-15-2009, 11:22 PM
I'm sorry but I must disagree with you. Our team's future is anything but questionable. I'd even go as far as to say that there are teams in the EPL with more questionable futures than us. Yes, I agree that we've overpaid players, but we also have a boat load of skilled younger players that are not taking up a lot of cap space. Mo's only mistake was underestimating how quickly some of these players would come around. And the players that we've overpaid are still very decent footballers that could help a lot of teams. For example, at the beginning of the year, who here would have thought that between Sanyang and Cronin, Robbo would now be disposable, obviously not Mo - at the beginning of the year Robbo was essential to our team, and Mo brought him back at the best value he could, which was a pay cut from what understand.

Guess what? In a couple of years, those young players will be gone if they live up to their potential. Then what? Rebuild the team again?

I don't consider overpaid players like Robbo (even the paycut he supposedly took) and Garcia to be decent footballers.




Also, many bigger clubs would love to have a player like JDG play for them - there's nothing wrong with having a player like him in his prime play for our club...my friend you have it backwards, Mo wasn't looking for a Canadian DP, he was using the fact a potential DP was Canadian as incentive to lure him to our club.Mo has said in the past he wants to use DP slot on a Canadian player. JDG was Mo's target this year. Last year, there was a rumour that Mo was offering DP money to Hume. (http://www.mls-rumors.net/2008/11/incoming-toronto-dp-approved-by-board.html)



Finally, I urge someone on this board to find me a person at another MLS club who's Mo's equivalent that you would rather have instead - I can'tI don't mind having either DC United, Seattle or Houston's GM at all.

Heck, I would rather have Frank Yallop (I believe he got some experience as a GM in the past) run TFC than Mo.

Oldtimer
08-16-2009, 07:14 AM
^ That's an interesting evaluation. It looks like MLSE hired Mo because he understands how MLS works, but his biggest failure has been trying to build a team for the future - which isn't how MLS works.

Well, we can certainly see that Mo is building what will be a great team in the future! Say what you will about his ability to get decent internationals (including a DP). After the DC game, I have to say I am very impressed with the young lads he has added to the squad.

Attakora is going to be a very solid MLS player. Sanyang, at 18, while not yet mature, shows great potential. Add the three drafts picks. Cronin is already playing very well in his rookie year. OBW is getting into form, and will likely be a good goal-scorer for us. Frei is well on his way to rookie of the year honours. He's 3 out of 3 in my books for his drafting. Ives didn't call him MLS's best drafter for nothing.

If Mo adds to or three good draft picks every year, TFC will become a very hard team to beat.

As I've said before, Mo is following the same plan that New England has followed: Add a few good young players every year, and incrementally improve the squad. Even if we end up selling a player each year, we will still be ahead.

So give credit where credit is due. In a salary-cap league, his ability to add good youth will be very important for us. It doesn't give immediate results, but in the long term you get a good team.

T.Reis
08-16-2009, 04:47 PM
I know everyone was very well aware of all this at the draft so just a reminder that many of us were a little disappointed when Mo didn't make any deals involving our draft picks at the time for some player(s).

So now looking back, not only is there lots of potential for Frei, Cronin & O'BW to contribute in the future, but it also seems that they've turned into important players for this years run.

Any thoughts now looking back at not making a deal at the draft?
Thought maybe it could turn into interesting conversation

S_D
08-16-2009, 04:59 PM
I would have been ok with him trading a pick for a good CB in the league. Doubt a good one would have been available for just a pick though.

Limani_Ole
08-16-2009, 10:24 PM
His ability to draft is without question one of the best..

I just have to question the rational of signing him for another 2 years(unofficial) without yet having delivered more than a CCC.. and more importantly a team that cant convincingly win more than a hand full of games with the payroll and roster they have..

eitherway the young guys really showed the veterans how to play like a team on Sat.. we needed some of that against PRI

Shep
08-16-2009, 10:53 PM
His ability to draft is without question one of the best..

I just have to question the rational of signing him for another 2 years(unofficial) without yet having delivered more than a CCC.. and more importantly a team that cant convincingly win more than a hand full of games with the payroll and roster they have..

eitherway the young guys really showed the veterans how to play like a team on Sat.. we needed some of that against PRI

We aren't even through the 3rd season yet.

TFC is a strong club.

Have a look at the league table, and realize this is the MLS.

Out of 15 clubs, only 4 have won more games then us. We've won 8, the most won by any club in the league this year so far is 11. I know you can probably do the math, but just to have the number here.. that's only 3 games more than us....oh yeah, and THEY HAVE 2 GAMES UP ON US. Chivas and Colorado are the only 2 clubs with a real chance to move within the game differential right now, other than that things are pretty settled.

We are better than most clubs in the league. And again, 3rd season. Seattle is only up on us because they've drawn twice where we've lost. And to our credit we had a few extra CL/CCC matches in our bag to deal with.

I love the state of the club, and it's direction. Of course we've got some improving to do, but this is TFC in the MLS, and it's not going to happen overnight..WE DON'T HAVE A RICH OWNER IN DUBAI.. AND EVEN IF WE DID HE'D BE CAPPED ON SPENDING.

2 years is a blink. And I'd want Mo to have at least that to be able to formulate and deliver on goals that might take longer that a cheeseburger at a McDonald's drive through.

Limani_Ole
08-16-2009, 11:43 PM
We aren't even through the 3rd season yet.

TFC is a strong club.

Have a look at the league table, and realize this is the MLS.

Out of 15 clubs, 4 have won more games then us. We've won 8, the most won by any club in the league this year so far is 11. I know you can probably do the math, but just to have the number here.. that's only 3 games more than us....oh yeah, and THEY HAVE 2 GAMES UP ON US. Chivas and Colorado are the only 2 clubs with a real chance to move within the game differential right now, other than that things are pretty settled.

We are better than most clubs in the league. And again, 3rd season. Seattle is only up on us because they've drawn twice where we've lost. And to our credit we had a few extra CL/CCC matches in our bag to deal with.

I love the state of the club, and it's direction. Of course we've got some improving to do, but this is TFC in the MLS, and it's not going to happen overnight..WE DON'T HAVE A RICH OWNER IN DUBAI.. AND EVEN IF WE DID HE'D BE CAPPED ON SPENDING.

2 years is a blink. And I'd want him to have at least that to be able to formulate and deliver on goals that might take longer that a cheeseburger at a McDonald's drive through.

everyone is entitled to an opinion.. but I dont see what realizing this is MLS has to do with Mo's contract extension..

Math also says we are in the middle of the table team with less games to play than Colorado, NE and Chivas.. with 6 out of the 9 on the road.. things could change very quickly and I'd be cautions to claim the team is better than most clubs.. math will have the final say on who advances to the playoffs and who doesnt..

I dont see where spending fits into the argument since TFC spends to the cap.. I realize you cant buy a ready made squad to win the cup.. but you should at least be able to get a team that plays well together after 3 years!! all you need to see is the PRI games to realize they dont play well together.. its no secret..

I hope the team jells over the next few games and makes a nice run in the playoffs.. but why not give yourself the option to change management if things dont go your way by October? it is still a very real possibility things can change..

Shep
08-17-2009, 03:27 AM
everyone is entitled to an opinion.. but I dont see what realizing this is MLS has to do with Mo's contract extension..

Math also says we are in the middle of the table team with less games to play than Colorado, NE and Chivas.. with 6 out of the 9 on the road.. things could change very quickly and I'd be cautions to claim the team is better than most clubs.. math will have the final say on who advances to the playoffs and who doesnt..

I dont see where spending fits into the argument since TFC spends to the cap.. I realize you cant buy a ready made squad to win the cup.. but you should at least be able to get a team that plays well together after 3 years!! all you need to see is the PRI games to realize they dont play well together.. its no secret..

I hope the team jells over the next few games and makes a nice run in the playoffs.. but why not give yourself the option to change management if things dont go your way by October? it is still a very real possibility things can change..


It has everything to do with the MLS, doesn't matter which team you are following right now you'd be singing the same tune.. except 2 or 3 clubs, all have been riding a rollercoaster. That's the nature of this league, and money has everything to do with it, the playing field is level here. TFC could sell a trillion jerseys, dominate the global football market, but we still can't offer platers a $ amount even close to what's on the table in Europe. Mo is limited by the same factors as everyone else in the league.

That's the point. For the age of the club, and it's long-term design (which is only in TFC's best interest), we are doing extremely well this season. Don't forget to add in the extra games as I said, and the coaching flip. Older established clubs are already pretty much out of the running this season, yet we have a good foothold. We may not make the playoffs, but this club is far from weak and only winning a handful of games. I still think we'll make it, but anything can happen. And that makes this more exciting for me. It just sounds like some people aren't happy with anything less than a top spot, 5 pts clear.

BY the numbers, columbus and Houston might be set, and NY is fuked, but with 27-33 pts still available to clubs it's still very open.

I say we are better because I think we have a stronger foundation in place, heavier support and, this is the thing in contention, our squad. Which is Mo's doing.

Beach_Red
08-17-2009, 07:30 AM
His ability to draft is without question one of the best..

I just have to question the rational of signing him for another 2 years(unofficial) without yet having delivered more than a CCC.. and more importantly a team that cant convincingly win more than a hand full of games with the payroll and roster they have..

eitherway the young guys really showed the veterans how to play like a team on Sat.. we needed some of that against PRI

There would probably have been no talk of any extention if KC hadn't fired their manager.

VPjr
08-17-2009, 08:41 AM
Well, Gareth Wheeler is reporting today that we should expect TFC to make public the 3 YEAR contract extension for Mo Johnston so the Mo lovers will be hoisting a pint in his honour I imagine.

To me, it just reinforces that this organization is clueless. A 3 year extension? For a man who has never had any real, sustained success as a manager? Unreal. If they would have given him a 1 year extension, I could support that (grudgingly).

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2009/08/17/10482341-sun.html (http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2009/08/17/10482341-sun.html)

TFCRegina
08-17-2009, 08:46 AM
Well, Gareth Wheeler is reporting today that we should expect TFC to make public the 3 YEAR contract extension for Mo Johnston so the Mo lovers will be hoisting a pint in his honour I imagine.

To me, it just reinforces that this organization is clueless. A 3 year extension? For a man who has never had any real, sustained success as a manager? Unreal. If they would have given him a 1 year extension, I could support that (grudgingly).

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2009/08/17/10482341-sun.html (http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2009/08/17/10482341-sun.html)

When the club is meeting its financial targets...

fetajr
08-17-2009, 09:00 AM
MO needs to go, one win doesn't change that in my eyes

Beach_Red
08-17-2009, 09:02 AM
Well, Gareth Wheeler is reporting today that we should expect TFC to make public the 3 YEAR contract extension for Mo Johnston so the Mo lovers will be hoisting a pint in his honour I imagine.

To me, it just reinforces that this organization is clueless. A 3 year extension? For a man who has never had any real, sustained success as a manager? Unreal. If they would have given him a 1 year extension, I could support that (grudgingly).

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2009/08/17/10482341-sun.html (http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2009/08/17/10482341-sun.html)


Cupless yes, clueless no.

This move satisfies the organization's goals. They are solidly middle-of-pack in everything they do. No huge risks and no huge payoffs.

You shouldn't be surprised by this. They like slow, steady profitability.

And, I believe that KC forced their hand. If theyhadn't fired their manager, there would have been no talk of an extansion. There really aren't any managers with "sustained success" in MLS ready to come to Toronto and work for MLSE, are there? So what you'd be looking at is a risk (at this point Mo has 2.5 years of experience, which may count for more than "success" at MLSE, as it does at many jobs), someone with success in a different league with different roster rules that would be willing to move 'up' to MLS.

I would like to see the organization take big risks, but it' never been in their nature so I'm not surprised to see that they aren't starting now.

And like we've been saying, just because a contract is in place, people still get fired. All this means is that the team is willing to make a longer-term committment. That will mean a lot when looking for the next manager as it willopen the door to more of those with "sustained success" as you say because somone with that kind of record can make bigger demands.

Oldtimer
08-17-2009, 10:08 AM
C'mon guys, it's not like there are any Capellos in MLS.

All MLS managers are below Euro standards, or they wouldn't be managing here. All are mediocre. Mo is above-average in this lot.

Shep
08-17-2009, 10:19 AM
MO needs to go, one win doesn't change that in my eyes

Oh, we've only won 1 game this year?

Someone must have dropped acid in my Guinness.

olegunnar
08-17-2009, 11:02 AM
Oh, we've only won 1 game this year?

Someone must have dropped acid in my Guinness.

Come on man.

We had a pitch invasion at the end of year one...did you not get all your "holy crap it's great we have a team" feelings out then? That's over, done with.

Now were an established team...it's time to compete...not just be happy to have tickets to Toronto's largest patio on Saturdays during the summer.


It's year three...embrace the pursuit of excellence.

Section 117
08-17-2009, 11:21 AM
If and if they qualify for the playoffs then no problem.

There has been progression in the team, but getting Dero handed to us and Serioux as well I can't see how Mo is the reason for this. They wanted to come home. Mo should have reinforced the defence prior to the season commencing.

The kids look pretty good, but that was one game they need to show that they can consistenly play at that level and as much as I hate to say this I am ok w/ Mo's extension.

rocker
08-17-2009, 11:48 AM
TFC:

25 points in year 1
35 points in year 2 -- 40 per cent increase from year 1
43 projected points in year 3 -- 72 per cent increase from year 1
= solid improvement.

In contrast, let's takeSan Jose, with the MIGHTY FRANK YALLOP at the helm:

35 points in year 1
25 projected points in year 2
= Not improvement.

fetajr
08-17-2009, 02:40 PM
Oh, we've only won 1 game this year?

Someone must have dropped acid in my Guinness.


one game ago all was going to hell and most people wanted Mo and CC fired... one win can not fix that.

Mo still has to go, so does CC. No more long ball.

TFC07
08-17-2009, 02:41 PM
Well, Gareth Wheeler is reporting today that we should expect TFC to make public the 3 YEAR contract extension for Mo Johnston so the Mo lovers will be hoisting a pint in his honour I imagine.

To me, it just reinforces that this organization is clueless. A 3 year extension? For a man who has never had any real, sustained success as a manager? Unreal. If they would have given him a 1 year extension, I could support that (grudgingly).

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2009/08/17/10482341-sun.html (http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2009/08/17/10482341-sun.html)

LMAO! :picard:

TFC07
08-17-2009, 02:43 PM
one game ago all was going to hell and most people wanted Mo and CC fired... one win can not fix that.

Mo still has to go, so does CC. No more long ball.

Yeah, TFC needs to mix it up, which they did in the last game (I guess weather had something to do with that).

mighty_torontofc_2008
08-17-2009, 02:47 PM
Mo deserves the extension has the club has improved on the field and progress is what we want..ok it might not be as fast as some would like but this is the real sports world..contenders are NOT built over night and takes time. MLSE did right by
giving MO longer to make this club a true contender over the next 3 seasons.

Shep
08-17-2009, 05:32 PM
Come on man.

We had a pitch invasion at the end of year one...did you not get all your "holy crap it's great we have a team" feelings out then? That's over, done with.

Now were an established team...it's time to compete...not just be happy to have tickets to Toronto's largest patio on Saturdays during the summer.


It's year three...embrace the pursuit of excellence.

Oh don't worry, I am more than embracing the pursuit of excellence. READ WHAT I'VE BEEN WRITING, I THINK MO IS DOING A GOOD JOB.

Welcome to my opinion, it's different than yours.

Don't try to pull that "didn't you get your feeling out then" shit with me, suggesting I'm happy with mediocrity and all that nonsense. And don't insult me by insinuating I'm into this for the novelty. I won't even be living in TO for another year or two. 200k travel both ways and overpriced tickets I have to deal with for every match, you think I don't want this club to be the best it can??

You gave no argument at all in that reply, not one. TFC is competing. Strong club, and in the running for playoffs. Explain to me how Mo has screwed you enough to deserve the boot? We have some of the freshest young talent with us because of him. No DP? He was going after the right DP, and couldn't get him - we all know the story.

But like I said, some just won't be supportive until they get their own version of whatever $uperclub they hump.

I could restate my points for you, but the search function will do the trick.

Explain to me why Mo must go, and who we should have in his place. And I mean real reasons, facts. And draw parallels to other MLS management. Comparing Mo's performance to anything outside this league doesn't work for me.

Shep
08-17-2009, 05:36 PM
one game ago all was going to hell and most people wanted Mo and CC fired... one win can not fix that.

Mo still has to go, so does CC. No more long ball.

lol @ most... most americans voted bush back in, remember.
I didn't want Mo gone, and I still don't.

But curious, who do you want in?

fetajr
08-18-2009, 12:53 PM
But curious, who do you want in?

someone who promotes and teaches possession attacking football with a keen eye for identifying: 1) current roster players who are talented enough to play this style, 2) ability to find such talented players that are available on the market without spending DP type money.

now who??.. i don't have a clue, thats Anselmi's job

Oldtimer
08-18-2009, 01:37 PM
someone who promotes and teaches possession attacking football with a keen eye for identifying: 1) current roster players who are talented enough to play this style, 2) ability to find such talented players that are available on the market without spending DP type money.

now who??.. i don't have a clue, thats Anselmi's job

So you want Mo to go and you don't know the other managers in MLS?
Like I said, there are no Capellos here. MoJo is pretty good by this league's standards.

How about this one? Which team in MLS plays the kind of game that you want?
(I'll give you a hint: there are two teams that are known for a "possession" style).

DangerRed
08-18-2009, 02:10 PM
I think dudes need to moderate a little with this "boot Mo" talk.

We're in third place in our divvy heading into the final stretch ahead of the playoffs. We briefly sat on top of our division table. This has in no small part been due to DeRo and other trades (both acquiring and releasing) made by Mo.

I said it earlier in this thread, I'm reserving my Mo kudos for when we hit the playoffs. Until then, he seems to be steering the ship in the right direction, so let's not throw him overboard just yet.

And I'll go a step further -- I don't think we should toss Mo if we fail to make the playoffs, either. If that happens, we should take a long hard look at Chris Cummins. But like I said, not just yet..

fetajr
08-18-2009, 08:56 PM
So you want Mo to go and you don't know the other managers in MLS?
Like I said, there are no Capellos here. MoJo is pretty good by this league's standards.

Why does it have to be an MLS guy? Why stick to 'league standards'?... If we want to be better than the competition, then there are better options outside MLS that can make it happen



How about this one? Which team in MLS plays the kind of game that you want?
(I'll give you a hint: there are two teams that are known for a "possession" style).

From what I've seen i can say Houston and Chivas plays it, and it was obvious in this year's windy home opener that Seattle played it nicely.

Oldtimer
08-19-2009, 07:31 AM
You're correct about Chivas, they are known for that style.
The other team is DC United, they have long been known for their "Latino" style of play.

Houston plays a more hybrid style, not pure possession.

The thing about DC United is that we beat them, Chivas is level with us on points, although they have games in hand.

My point is that "possession" style alone doesn't guarantee success in MLS.

Oldtimer
08-19-2009, 07:40 AM
Why does it have to be an MLS guy? Why stick to 'league standards'?... If we want to be better than the competition, then there are better options outside MLS that can make it happen

There have been several managers, some well-known who were brought from Europe to do the same in MLS over the years. Not one has ever succeeded.

The only European managers who have done well in MLS either played here, or coached in the US first at a junior level. It is essential to know the system. It is my conviction that no Euro manager can be brought in cold into MLS and do well. Caps, allocations, roster restrictions etc. are just too foreign to the Euro way of thinking. MoJo, for all his faults, knows the system well.

So... give me your list of Euro managers already here who you think would do better than MoJo, then we can talk. :drinking:

If you want a Latino manager... the obvious choice is Preki. He's not going anywhere, and besides, I'm not sold on him as a great manager.

fetajr
08-19-2009, 09:05 AM
So... give me your list of Euro managers already here who you think would do better than MoJo, then we can talk. :drinking:

If you want a Latino manager... the obvious choice is Preki. He's not going anywhere, and besides, I'm not sold on him as a great manager.

suppose you mean "latino style" manager, b/c Preki is surely not latino.

All i ask is for a manager/coach who brings possession attacking wisdom to the team. Clearly Mo and CC don't bring it, jeeez somedays it feels like some players are in competition with one another of who can kick it the furthest down the field...its terrible... and what about the super long throw in's?...i don't understand why a team would opt for a 50/50 ball (at best), instead of keeping possession and working it up the field.

Marcelo Bielsa (ARG) and his staff instilled possession attacking football into the Chilean national team system over the last couple of years, now they sit 2nd in south american WC qualifying on the verge of making it to south africa...it was a revolutionary change that has brought the team much success.

That said, you want managers, i can suggest a few who i think will do a better job than Mo&CC..god knows if they're under contract:


Claudio Borghi (Argentinos Juniors)
Jorge Garces
Rene Simoes (Coritiba)
Osvaldo Ardiles
Jose Sulantaay
Ricardo Lavolpe (Atlas)
Steven Hart (Canada)
Rafael Carbajal, (Serbian White Eagles)
Armando Costa, (Brampton Lions) (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=16136)

Gazza_55
08-19-2009, 10:53 PM
You're correct about Chivas, they are known for that style.
The other team is DC United, they have long been known for their "Latino" style of play.

Houston plays a more hybrid style, not pure possession.

The thing about DC United is that we beat them, Chivas is level with us on points, although they have games in hand.

My point is that "possession" style alone doesn't guarantee success in MLS.

What about Seattle?

Shakes McQueen
08-20-2009, 12:31 AM
What about Seattle?

Seattle started out red hot, because they have some good players, but they appear to be cooling off as teams figure them out. They remind me a lot of Hull City in the EPL last year. Still a good team - just not the class of the league many people thought they were.

Possession football isn't any guarantee of success in MLS, because it requires a high level of skill to pull off. Any shitbag can play long ball, but quality passing skill doesn't grow on trees. Think of the number of cringe inducing passes you see in an average MLS game, and then imagine that team trying to play a possession game.

It's part of the reason I wanted JDG here so much. A midfield with technically skilled guys like Vitti, Guevara, DeRo, and JDG could likely play some slick possession football (for MLS, anyway).

- Scott

fetajr
08-20-2009, 09:47 AM
Seattle started out red hot, because they have some good players, but they appear to be cooling off as teams figure them out. They remind me a lot of Hull City in the EPL last year. Still a good team - just not the class of the league many people thought they were.

Possession football isn't any guarantee of success in MLS, because it requires a high level of skill to pull off. Any shitbag can play long ball, but quality passing skill doesn't grow on trees. Think of the number of cringe inducing passes you see in an average MLS game, and then imagine that team trying to play a possession game.

It's part of the reason I wanted JDG here so much. A midfield with technically skilled guys like Vitti, Guevara, DeRo, and JDG could likely play some slick possession football (for MLS, anyway).

- Scott


good points.

At this point, with all of the roster players we have at our disposal, I feel management/coach has a lot to do with not optimizing TFCs potentials.

Take the Canadian National Team for example, shit under Dale Mitchell, good and with potential under Steven Hart. Why is that? I don't know what the hell Mitchell was trying to achieve, but it looked like he was going defense first and then long ball counter attack. While Hart instilled a possession brand of football encouraging the players to hold onto the ball and get creative on the attack.

Same group of players, coaches/managers with different ideology, the results speak for themselves.

Stryker
09-11-2009, 04:27 PM
Well... they said it couldn't be done.
They said he was just too good to play here now.

Mo Johnson with the tenacity of a pitbull, chased De Guzman and got him in the end.
I say again, kudos to Mo.

Shakes McQueen
09-11-2009, 04:39 PM
Well... they said it couldn't be done.
They said he was just too good to play here now.

Mo Johnson with the tenacity of a pitbull, chased De Guzman and got him in the end.
I say again, kudos to Mo.

Not only that, but we got him without any sort of clause that would let him skip town on us. Fucking tremendous deal.

- Scott

OneLoveOneEric
09-11-2009, 04:45 PM
I know I'm probably alone here, but I don't think JDG is the right player for us now, nor is he right as DP.
This has nothing to do with his quality as a player, I just don't think his position is our biggest need, nor is he a name or talent worthy of our first DP spot. No question he's an upgrade for our team, but I would have hoped for way more in a DP, personally.
I think if he wasn't Canadian, people wouldn't be so excited about this signing.

VPjr
09-11-2009, 05:24 PM
Well... they said it couldn't be done.
They said he was just too good to play here now.

Mo Johnson with the tenacity of a pitbull, chased De Guzman and got him in the end.
I say again, kudos to Mo.

Mo's wooing, coupled with a unique set of circumstances that resulted in a lack of quality offers for a quality player means that TFC got very lucky and got themselves a very good player. Mo was tenacious and got his man...good for him. For today, he deserves kudos. I hope Julian becomes the cornerstone of a successful TFC.

HOWEVER, in my view, Mo needs to be judged more by his ability to build a full 22-24 man roster with the small amount of money that will be left over after paying for Julian, DeRo, Barrett (I think his contract is guaranteed for next year), Robinson (if he's still around next year), Ali Gerba (I think his contract is guaranteed next year as well), etc...

So far, he has not shown an ability to do anything but accumulate players, irregardless of how they fit together, Trophy Manager style. He can't continue down the path.

I have never had faith in the man. I don't like him and don't trust him. I know many people with alot more expertise than I who can't understand how this man is able to keep his job. MLSE clearly enjoys having Mo blow sunshine up their collective asses so he's not going anywhere for the time being.

You have to ask yourself if you have faith in him to hire yet another new coach (because I have a feeling that CC isn't returning for 2010 if the team doesn't make the playoffs) and also address the numerous weaknesses on this team. I personally don't have faith and I don't think he has the money in the till to plug this team's massive holes.

Time will tell. I'd prefer to be wrong but I'm pretty darn confident I won't be.

Oldtimer
09-11-2009, 05:42 PM
I know I'm probably alone here, but I don't think JDG is the right player for us now, nor is he right as DP.


You're pretty close, there.

The best thing would be to see how it works in practice. I think you'll be surprised. JDG can play box-to-box and is an impressive addition.

FluSH
09-11-2009, 05:43 PM
Mo has played his cards right... whether you like it or not... he's done well to secure his 3yr extension...

Marco2K
09-11-2009, 05:45 PM
I would have to agree. the Deguzman things sews it up.

OneLoveOneEric
09-11-2009, 05:45 PM
You're pretty close, there.

The best thing would be to see how it works in practice. I think you'll be surprised. JDG can play box-to-box and is an impressive addition.

I look forward to it -- and I hope you're right!!

flatpicker
09-11-2009, 05:46 PM
Mo has played his cards right... whether you like it or not... he's done well to secure his 3yr extension...

yup... and MLSE has done well to maintain their season ticket renewal quota.

Nuvinho
09-11-2009, 05:53 PM
yup... and MLSE has done well to maintain their season ticket renewal quota.

I will only give Kudos to Mo if he convinces MLSE not to raise ticket prices......hahahaha!!!

rocker
09-11-2009, 05:57 PM
I think Mo is solid at drafting and judging talent as it relates to the MLS market. He understands the reality of the system imposed on MLS teams.. he knows value within MLS. He knows how to play that game. I personally think he's put together a team with as much talent as most MLS teams. Coaching has been his achilles heel... I noticed this with the Blue Jays a few years back. Instead of signing a proven, well known coach, they went with no-names in the assumption those guys could grow with the team... but it didn't work (neither has Cito, but that's nothing to do with him). Of course, Mo hires the coaches, so that's on him. But I still think the team has enough talent that coaching could push it further -- much in the way we complained that Canada had more talent and potential than the Dale Mitchell era was producing.
I mean, if we had Steve Nicol or Sigi Schmidt right now, I think we'd have more points -- even without any additional players. Steve Nicol would be salivating at having De Ro, De Guzman, Guevara (compared to the low budget guys he's got to deal with).
Is that Mo being stubborn, or Mo thinking "his guy" really isn't available, so who gives a shit who the coach is while he's still slowly acquiring the right talent?

mighty_torontofc_2008
09-11-2009, 05:58 PM
suppose you mean "latino style" manager, b/c Preki is surely not latino.

All i ask is for a manager/coach who brings possession attacking wisdom to the team. Clearly Mo and CC don't bring it, jeeez somedays it feels like some players are in competition with one another of who can kick it the furthest down the field...its terrible... and what about the super long throw in's?...i don't understand why a team would opt for a 50/50 ball (at best), instead of keeping possession and working it up the field.

Marcelo Bielsa (ARG) and his staff instilled possession attacking football into the Chilean national team system over the last couple of years, now they sit 2nd in south american WC qualifying on the verge of making it to south africa...it was a revolutionary change that has brought the team much success.

That said, you want managers, i can suggest a few who i think will do a better job than Mo&CC..god knows if they're under contract:


Claudio Borghi (Argentinos Juniors)
Jorge Garces
Rene Simoes (Coritiba)
Osvaldo Ardiles
Jose Sulantaay
Ricardo Lavolpe (Atlas)
Steven Hart (Canada)
Rafael Carbajal, (Serbian White Eagles)
Armando Costa, (Brampton Lions) (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=16136)

christ the last two, pub league managers are you for real? Hart has done dick all for canada, we are dull to watch and have no success with him so no for him at TFC....Rene Simoes should be the canada manager if the csa cheapness did come into play. MO is doing great as director of soccer operations and CC needs another term as manager...we have the right guys!!

flatpicker
09-11-2009, 06:03 PM
I think Mo is solid at drafting and judging talent as it relates to the MLS market. He understands the reality of the system imposed on MLS teams.. he knows value within MLS. He knows how to play that game. I personally think he's put together a team with as much talent as most MLS teams. Coaching has been his achilles heel... I noticed this with the Blue Jays a few years back. Instead of signing a proven, well known coach, they went with no-names in the assumption those guys could grow with the team... but it didn't work (neither has Cito, but that's nothing to do with him). Of course, Mo hires the coaches, so that's on him. But I still think the team has enough talent that coaching could push it further -- much in the way we complained that Canada had more talent and potential than the Dale Mitchell era was producing.
I mean, if we had Steve Nicol or Sigi Schmidt right now, I think we'd have more points -- even without any additional players.
Is that Mo being stubborn, or Mo thinking "his guy" really isn't available, so who gives a shit who the coach is while he's still slowly acquiring the right talent?

I tend to agree.
I don't dislike Cummins... but I think, for the time being, he should stick to an "assistant coach" position.

There is some good talent on this team.
I think if we had a coaching staff better equipped to get the best out of players, then we would be much further ahead in the standings.
Hopefully next season this issue will be addressed.
I don't mind if Cummins stays on... but someone else needs to take the lead.

Oldtimer
09-11-2009, 06:06 PM
I personally don't have faith and I don't think he has the money in the till to plug this team's massive holes.


If the cap goes up to $3 million, as is rumoured, there will be enough cash.

The fact is, you don't know why there are holes in the squad. A lot of them may have nothing to do with Mo:



players might refuse because of our terrible turf.
Canadian taxes are much higher than in the US. Yes we have "free" health care, but the players have a health plan.
Toronto is much less glamorous than New York or LA, but has an equivalent cost of living
Carver may have told Mo who he wanted, and gaps are due to Carver.


I wouldn't trust Mo either, but I wouldn't give him 100% of the blame, either.

Beach_Red
09-11-2009, 06:16 PM
I know I'm probably alone here, but I don't think JDG is the right player for us now, nor is he right as DP.
This has nothing to do with his quality as a player, I just don't think his position is our biggest need, nor is he a name or talent worthy of our first DP spot. No question he's an upgrade for our team, but I would have hoped for way more in a DP, personally.
I think if he wasn't Canadian, people wouldn't be so excited about this signing.


Maybe the question isn't JDG or someone else as DP but JDG or no one else. We really have no idea how many guys were offered that size of contract to come here and the negotiations didn't even start.

Of course a whole bunch of circumstnces had to align and we got very lucky. This move, like pretty much every other move in MLS, had more to do with reaction to an opportunity when it appeared (JDG's contract running out and no other long-term offers being made) than any kind of plan.

MLS teams can't build very much - they have to be opportunists. That may be the way Mo keeps his job. When a Danny Dichio wants to play for Chicago, but can't get the work permit, Mo is an opportunist and grabs him. When MLSE set tight restrictions in paying a DP (the conspiracy guys might say such tight restriction that they thought they'd never be met so they wouldn't have to spend the money) Mo was an opportunist and signed JDG.

Someday maybe, when MLS raise the salary cap and the league's reputation improves a different kind of management will work better, but right now all this talk about planning in a league that loses any player who's any good and that no young, promising player wants to play in doesn't make much sense.

Did anyone actually ever say, "five year plan," or did they say it would take five years for a new team to draft well and to build enough reputation to get guys to sign?

OneLoveOneEric
09-11-2009, 06:28 PM
^^^ You make very good points.
What you are saying makes sense to me. And I sort of take the JDG signing as just that. I like it because he is an improvement for the team. I just can't get 100% excited, because I would have hoped for more, albeit maybe irrationally.

McBrace
09-11-2009, 06:37 PM
Fact of the matter is your not going to get a DP at the age of 28 with his quality, so I think Mo did the right thing and signed an impact player that will pay out huge for the club.. Via, Jerseys, Image, and Quality...IMO..

billygrieveuk
09-11-2009, 06:40 PM
i agree blades,
sometimes in football we must swim in the shit before we bask in the ....sun....?
;)


This is a typical North American critique right here ^

Mo has set us up well for the present and even better for the future. It may not be this year or even next year - but with our academy growing the way it has and the youth that is starting to expose itself to the first team. I am certain that TFC will be a successful club for a very long time when everything comes together.

billygrieveuk
09-11-2009, 06:43 PM
hes a great signing, it will be fun to watch.

McBrace
09-11-2009, 06:46 PM
I believe in the five year plan... I mean this team started with nothing...I don't care if people talk about the MlS past and this team did this in the first year and look at Sounders... The league had much less quality in the early stages ( From what I understand) and the sounders had a platform to build off of...

VPjr
09-11-2009, 08:15 PM
If the cap goes up to $3 million, as is rumoured, there will be enough cash.

The fact is, you don't know why there are holes in the squad. A lot of them may have nothing to do with Mo:



players might refuse because of our terrible turf.
Canadian taxes are much higher than in the US. Yes we have "free" health care, but the players have a health plan.
Toronto is much less glamorous than New York or LA, but has an equivalent cost of living
Carver may have told Mo who he wanted, and gaps are due to Carver.

I wouldn't trust Mo either, but I wouldn't give him 100% of the blame, either.

where do you hear the $3 million figure...dont count on it

there are only about 3-4 teams interested in a salary cap increase. Paul Beirne told me this personally.

there are plenty of reasons why we don't have the players needed. a huge factor is Mo overspending on certain players, leaving insufficient cap space for the depth needed at several positions.

i can assure you that Carver didn't tell Mo who to bring in. that is a collaborative process.

by the way, i dont buy this "toronto is too expensive and not glamorous enough". you have an all time Boca Juniors great in Columbus and international players in salt lake city and kansas. if you are a footballer, you want to play in toronto, a city that actually has a football culture and a stadium full of fans. The turf is an issue.

over-reliance on one player agent can't help TFC's efforts in securing the best available talent

James17930
09-11-2009, 09:26 PM
On balance, Mo has done a pretty good job building this team. Sure, he's made a couple of bad signings, but no one does their job 100% perfectly.

I think he does definitely deserve to stay on.

TFC07
09-11-2009, 09:42 PM
If the cap goes up to $3 million, as is rumoured, there will be enough cash.

The fact is, you don't know why there are holes in the squad. A lot of them may have nothing to do with Mo:



players might refuse because of our terrible turf.
Canadian taxes are much higher than in the US. Yes we have "free" health care, but the players have a health plan.
Toronto is much less glamorous than New York or LA, but has an equivalent cost of living
Carver may have told Mo who he wanted, and gaps are due to Carver.


I wouldn't trust Mo either, but I wouldn't give him 100% of the blame, either.

You can say same about New York and California. But however, there is ways for pro athletes (excluding Canadian pro athletes) get away of paying a lot of taxes in Ontario/Canada.

TFC07
09-11-2009, 09:45 PM
where do you hear the $3 million figure...dont count on it

there are only about 3-4 teams interested in a salary cap increase. Paul Beirne told me this personally.

there are plenty of reasons why we don't have the players needed. a huge factor is Mo overspending on certain players, leaving insufficient cap space for the depth needed at several positions.

i can assure you that Carver didn't tell Mo who to bring in. that is a collaborative process.

by the way, i dont buy this "toronto is too expensive and not glamorous enough". you have an all time Boca Juniors great in Columbus and international players in salt lake city and kansas. if you are a footballer, you want to play in toronto, a city that actually has a football culture and a stadium full of fans. The turf is an issue.

over-reliance on one player agent can't help TFC's efforts in securing the best available talent

EXACTLY!

I don't understand why some of posters here think so lowly when comes to attracting players to Toronto. Besides, wasn't there a rumour that Riise wanted to play for TFC because his wife loves Toronto (similar to Hedo situation..lol)?

flatpicker
09-11-2009, 09:58 PM
^ I tend to agree.

I understand players preferring places like NY, Chicago, LA etc.
But Toronto is a much more attractive destination than a lot of the US cities.
This city is known internationally and is a popular destination.
I think having natural turf will improve our ability to attract players.
Having some success would not hurt either.

mighty_torontofc_2008
09-11-2009, 10:05 PM
EXACTLY!

I don't understand why some of posters here think so lowly when comes to attracting players to Toronto. Besides, wasn't there a rumour that Riise wanted to play for TFC because his wife loves Toronto (similar to Hedo situation..lol)?


The Jays cant attract big name players, Leafs have no big name talent,
Raptors have Bosh and that about it...Toronto does not or seems to not have a good image for top named athletes..Until a Toronto team can sign a marque name then the problems will continue....!!

TFC07
09-11-2009, 10:08 PM
The Jays cant attract big name players, Leafs have no big name talent,
Raptors have Bosh and that about it...Toronto does not or seems to not have a good image for top named athletes..Until a Toronto team can sign a marque name then the problems will continue....!!

This off-season, Raptors attracted biggest FA (Hedo Turkoglu) in the market. It seem like everyone (excluding Ariza and maybe Marion) wanted the Raptors to sign them during this season.

flatpicker
09-11-2009, 10:20 PM
The Jays cant attract big name players, Leafs have no big name talent,
Raptors have Bosh and that about it...Toronto does not or seems to not have a good image for top named athletes..Until a Toronto team can sign a marque name then the problems will continue....!!

Not sure I agree.
Leafs and Raptors have both employed some pretty big names.
Are you expecting a Malkin, Ovechkin... Lebron James, Steve Nash?
There are only so many of those names to spread around.
But aside from players like them... there have been several big names in this city.

VPjr
09-11-2009, 10:23 PM
The Jays cant attract big name players, Leafs have no big name talent,
Raptors have Bosh and that about it...Toronto does not or seems to not have a good image for top named athletes..Until a Toronto team can sign a marque name then the problems will continue....!!


Jays have the best pitcher in baseball, who chose to re-up with the Jays last chance he got to be a free agent and if the team had decent management, the team would be at least decent and he wouldn't be looking to leave. he loves this town

Leafs dont need talent...they have those lemming leafs fans, who swallow the crap mlse throws their way and comes back asking for more. MLSE just spent $40 million giving ACC a facelift but their scouting department is one of the worst in the NHL over the past 10 years. plus, believe it or not, lots of players don't want the pressure of playing in Toronto. they don't want the scrutiny.

Raptors just signed Hedo, jarret jack, resigned bargnani and overhauled 75% of their roster. clearly, they can get people to come town. Bosh will make noise about leaving but he's gonna stay because this is where he will get most $$ and where he is most appreciated.

There are only a tiny number of marquee names. not every team is going to get one. Winning solves alot of problems when it comes to player recruitment. sadly, winning is not what mlse is about. sales growth projections can be met with all of their sports properties whether or not the teams win (The raps might be a slight exception but they just need a playoff berth to please the bean counters)

Rogers follows the mlse model pretty closely, using their sports property (the Jays) to cross market their cell phone business, their home phone business, their video stores, their cable tv, their all sports radio and tv stations, etc. etc. etc... winning is nice but not critical. just don't lose too much money on operations and the cross promo benefits will far outweigh a samll net loss on running the team. the stadium itself is profitable so if they lump the Jays and the stadium together when doing their books, even that division probably comes up smelling like roses most fiscal years

Toronto sports is plagued by organizations that are in the sports business rather than being in business and wanting to be in sports to stroke their own overblown ego. that's why jim balsillie is the perfect club owner and why mlse fears him so much...he's got more money than they do and its all his own. he will be motivated to bring himself glory and will do what it takes to make sure he achieves his goals. mlse doesn't have that luxury...losing money to try and win titles is not an option.

Sullivan
09-12-2009, 12:25 AM
more like KAOS by Mo...

And just for clarity, TFC shouldn't be struggling for a playoff spot. I believe the ingredients are here; problem is our executive chef is dyslexic.

3 seasons and 3 coaches?!

Then the players...

Dichio, the ultimate team / club 1st personality, has the uniform ripped away from him for why .... Danny didn't overpay and extend Chad.

Add DeRo to the growing list of players that have no respect for Mo.
Let's all watch and see how DeRo responds to no longer being the top paid TFC player - a promise extended by Mo....

And it's not just that players don't want to play on the plastic pitch; they also don't want to play for Mo! Ask the players who spurned TFC.

Then there is Cummins - aka Mo's current fallguy
He's bolting at season's end. His contract is up this year so never mind waiting to be thrown under the bus publicly by Mo in order for Mo to save his own a$$. It'll be a race who gets the upper hand in this situation... Cummins declares other pursuits or Mo says no renewal.

Allegedly Mo has his next puppet already lined up. And yup, another EURO-esque gaffer.

BTW....
TFC still need a proven poacher.
TFC still need a CB.
TFC still lack tactical identity and technical savy.

Look at the standings and results for proof.

Technorgasm
09-12-2009, 05:36 AM
Hun . . . .

VPjr
09-12-2009, 07:02 AM
more like KAOS by Mo...

And just for clarity, TFC shouldn't be struggling for a playoff spot. I believe the ingredients are here; problem is our executive chef is dyslexic.

3 seasons and 3 coaches?!

Then the players...

Dichio, the ultimate team / club 1st personality, has the uniform ripped away from him for why .... Danny didn't overpay and extend Chad.

Add DeRo to the growing list of players that have no respect for Mo.
Let's all watch and see how DeRo responds to no longer being the top paid TFC player - a promise extended by Mo....

And it's not just that players don't want to play on the plastic pitch; they also don't want to play for Mo! Ask the players who spurned TFC.

Then there is Cummins - aka Mo's current fallguy
He's bolting at season's end. His contract is up this year so never mind waiting to be thrown under the bus publicly by Mo in order for Mo to save his own a$$. It'll be a race who gets the upper hand in this situation... Cummins declares other pursuits or Mo says no renewal.

Allegedly Mo has his next puppet already lined up. And yup, another EURO-esque gaffer.

BTW....
TFC still need a proven poacher.
TFC still need a CB.
TFC still lack tactical identity and technical savy.

Look at the standings and results for proof.


you've got good sources my friend. All that information you are sharing rings very true.

OneLoveOneEric
09-12-2009, 07:10 AM
Jays have the best pitcher in baseball, who chose to re-up with the Jays last chance he got to be a free agent and if the team had decent management, the team would be at least decent and he wouldn't be looking to leave. he loves this town

Leafs dont need talent...they have those lemming leafs fans, who swallow the crap mlse throws their way and comes back asking for more. MLSE just spent $40 million giving ACC a facelift but their scouting department is one of the worst in the NHL over the past 10 years. plus, believe it or not, lots of players don't want the pressure of playing in Toronto. they don't want the scrutiny.

Raptors just signed Hedo, jarret jack, resigned bargnani and overhauled 75% of their roster. clearly, they can get people to come town. Bosh will make noise about leaving but he's gonna stay because this is where he will get most $$ and where he is most appreciated.

There are only a tiny number of marquee names. not every team is going to get one. Winning solves alot of problems when it comes to player recruitment. sadly, winning is not what mlse is about. sales growth projections can be met with all of their sports properties whether or not the teams win (The raps might be a slight exception but they just need a playoff berth to please the bean counters)

Rogers follows the mlse model pretty closely, using their sports property (the Jays) to cross market their cell phone business, their home phone business, their video stores, their cable tv, their all sports radio and tv stations, etc. etc. etc... winning is nice but not critical. just don't lose too much money on operations and the cross promo benefits will far outweigh a samll net loss on running the team. the stadium itself is profitable so if they lump the Jays and the stadium together when doing their books, even that division probably comes up smelling like roses most fiscal years

Toronto sports is plagued by organizations that are in the sports business rather than being in business and wanting to be in sports to stroke their own overblown ego. that's why jim balsillie is the perfect club owner and why mlse fears him so much...he's got more money than they do and its all his own. he will be motivated to bring himself glory and will do what it takes to make sure he achieves his goals. mlse doesn't have that luxury...losing money to try and win titles is not an option.

It's not the point of this thread, but I think you're wrong about Rogers and the Jays. Rogers have taken a loss on the Jays every year they've owned them. The only reason they're willing to do this is because the Jays support their TV networks, etc., but I can't think of any other owner in Canada who'd be willing to sink money in to a team without return like Rogers have with the Jays. I wouldn't lump them in with MLSE at all.

Oldtimer
09-12-2009, 07:14 AM
where do you hear the $3 million figure...dont count on it

there are only about 3-4 teams interested in a salary cap increase. Paul Beirne told me this personally.



Paul probably told you that last year, right?

It's not the franchises that are going to push for an increase. The CBA is coming up, they know they'll have no choice.

Oldtimer
09-12-2009, 07:33 AM
And it's not just that players don't want to play on the plastic pitch; they also don't want to play for Mo! Ask the players who spurned TFC.


I imagine you personally asked the players? Give me a break! Players don't talk that kind of crap, even if they think it.

"Ya, people hate Mo, don't want to play in any organization that employs 'Judas.'" However, JDG just joined (his family said he was impressed by TFC management, MLSE couldn't force them to say that), DeRo was happy to come, he could have continued to be a star for a real cup contender, but he chose TFC knowing that MoJo is here.

I could understand people not wanting to be under Mo as coach, but the players don't have to deal with him on a daily basis.

As far as Cummins being a "sock puppet," that is ridiculous. Look at how different his playbook is from Carver's, and Mo's (when Mo was coach). He may have spouted the party line with respect to DD, but he's his own man as coach.

Now what is true in your post is that Cummins likely won't be here next year, when he leaves for his already lined up job with JC. If you listen carefully to the Fan590 Soccer Show for September 10, he accidentally let's slip that he expects to work with JC again "in the future." Make no bones about it, he is planning to head back to the UK to be with his family and work with Carver again. After all, it was JC who brought him here, and he wanted to work under him for the opportunity, but now he has more reasons to leave than to stay.

I'm not a Mo apologist, don't trust him at all, but think he doesn't deserve all of the stuff that's being thrown at him. People are complex, have good points as well as bad. Mo is no exception.

OneLoveOneEric
09-12-2009, 07:35 AM
I imagine you personally asked the players? Give me a break! Players don't talk that kind of crap, even if they think it.

"Ya, people hate Mo, don't want to play in any organization that employs 'Judas.'" However, JDG just joined (his family said he was impressed by TFC management, MLSE couldn't force them to say that), DeRo was happy to come, he could have continued to be a star for a real cup contender, but he chose TFC knowing that MoJo is here.

I could understand people not wanting to be under Mo as coach, but the players don't have to deal with him on a daily basis.

As far as Cummins being a sock puppet, that is ridiculous. Look at how different his playbook is from Carver's, and Mo's (when Mo was coach). He may have spouted the party line with respect to DD, but he's his own man as coach.

Now what is true in your post is that Cummins likely won't be here next year, when he leaves for his already lined up job with JC. If you listen carefully to the Fan590 Soccer Show for September 10, he accidentally let's slip that he expects to work with JC again in the future. Make no bones about it, he is planning to head back to the UK to be with his family and work with Carver. He just took the job on "interim coach" because he is under contract anyway, and it will burnish his CV.


JDG also said it was a life long dream of his to play here ;)

Oldtimer
09-12-2009, 07:50 AM
you've got good sources my friend. All that information you are sharing rings very true.

I think his post is mostly made up speculation.

Sullivan
09-12-2009, 09:01 AM
you've got good sources my friend.

Perhaps equal to your choices for dinner companions.

I'm trying to track SW down, I heard his Q the other night - is he around, was he at dinner with you guys?

Chevy
09-12-2009, 09:06 AM
I think that no matter what happens with the club you're gonna get at least 20% of supporters who will bitch and moan.

Bring DeRo home? Check.
Sign a DP? Check.
Grass? Check.

ag futbol
09-12-2009, 09:14 AM
If we make the playoffs this year I'll give Mo Johnston my backing. Otherwise, i don't think Grass, a dp, or Dero should save him. We're talking about finishing in the top half of the league once in three years, which is a perfectly achievable goal.

To offset the problems there have been issues (since day 1) with roster turnover, finding a quality striker, roster balance, and coaching.

Whether the positives or negatives win out ultimately comes down to our performance on the field.

VPjr
09-12-2009, 12:10 PM
Paul probably told you that last year, right?

It's not the franchises that are going to push for an increase. The CBA is coming up, they know they'll have no choice.

Actually, Paul told me that 2-3 months ago, when I was giving him a hard time over the Real Madrid game and all the other issues i have with the organization.

Other MLS sources tell me the same thing...don't bet on a huge salary cap increase in the CBA. If it climbs to between 2.5 million and 2.6million, that would be good because there are some organizations who don't want to see it climb any higher than it is now.

Even the players aren't singularly focused on a massive increase in the salary cap. Issues like winning basic free agency rights are a higher priority.

VPjr
09-12-2009, 12:15 PM
Perhaps equal to your choices for dinner companions.

I'm trying to track SW down, I heard his Q the other night - is he around, was he at dinner with you guys?

SW's question to CC on Thursday night's Soccer Show was very good...someone had to ask it. The answer left me a tad cold.

No, SW wasn't at dinner on Thursday night. Haven't heard from him in a while actually so it was nice to know he's still paying attention. I see our mutual friend now residing in the southwest is back to posting on V's again.

VPjr
09-12-2009, 12:18 PM
I think his post is mostly made up speculation.

Not to pat myself on the back but I think i have a bit of a track record of knowing when information is accurate and when its not.

I'm not right 100% of the time but I think you'll find that when I applaud someone's "speculation' its because its pretty solid information.

You can choose to believe it or not but I'm telling you that Sullivan's info is very very solid and, if Sullivan is who I think he is, he has better sources than I do.

TFCtoMUFC
09-12-2009, 12:31 PM
So he signs a big name guy and people expect more from the team and the team is owned by MLSE. Sound familiar?

InTheCrowd
09-12-2009, 12:53 PM
Mo is doing all he can and honestly he's doing a good job. The rest goes down to coaching and HOW THE PLAYERS PLAY.