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Parkdale
08-11-2009, 01:23 PM
here's some things I've been thinking about lately. You could say this is an 'opinion piece' but I'm looking at these points as cold hard facts. In fact.... These are things that will never change, so they almost aren't worth debating / talking about anymore.

Yes, never is a long time, so like the Canadian Justice system, I'm calling 'life' 25 years.


Toronto FC will never be owned by someone other than MLSE
MLSE bought into the league and started this franchise - There is no way they will be giving away something that generates a decent profit for them. People can complain about the ownership all they like, but it's wasted breath. Unless some uberwealthy billionaire decides to buy the team at 10x their value, we're never going to have another set of owners. I just secretly hope that MLSE is using TFC to prove to the leafs and raps fans that they can actually win something - and I hope that happens sooner than later. Like them or hate them, we're stuck with them.

MLS will never be a 'world class' league
It's just not going to happen. MLS can earn some respect worldwide, but it's always going to be a small team in a small market. The constant comparisons to the EPL, Serie A, La Liga etc are a waste of breath. Just like the CFL will always be a distant second behind the NFL, and the Russian Hockey league will always be behind the NHL... MLS will never (again, 25 year rule) be held in the same esteem as the major European leagues. I expect the league WILL be on par with some of the minor leagues, like Norway, Scotland, Finland etc. That could happen, but it would take a major cultural shift. I think that shift is starting, but it wont happen over night. For now, there's no point in comparing our league to the big boys. It's just like comparing your high school girlfriend to a supermodel... just frustrating and unrealistic.


Running a sports team is a business
and businesses exist to make money. We pay for the right to watch the team -- NOT the right to watch a winning team. There's no guarantee that the team will win, and there's no refund on the tickets. They don't owe us a winning team because we dropped a few hundred bucks on tickets --- BUT they DO owe us quality play because of the support we've shown for the team. There's an unspoken contract between sports teams and their fans/supporters: We'll give it our all if you give it your all. That's all we ask, but that is separate from the business of selling tickets and filling seats. Never in the history of sports has their been a guarantee on the outcome, unless you're watching a fixed match.

Toronto FC is based in North America
There's all types of cool things that happen in other parts of the world, but there's also all types of bad shit that happens there too. Just because the game we love is played by the rest of the world, doesn't mean the 'rules' of the rest of the world will apply here. As cool as it would be to have terrace sections, it's probably not going to happen as long as BMO field has to pay for insurance. I'm pretty happy I can leave the stadium without worrying about riot squad cops bashing my head in. That's the trade off I guess. I don't think that BMO will ever be allowing flares and smoke displays in the stadium, no matter how awesome they might look. Is it worth risking your tickets to set them off? Not for me.


there we go. that was a waste of a good coffee break.
Oh, here's one other thing that isn't going to change:



The Red Patch Boys will support Toronto FC
It's bigger than the management, the current players, the shitty turf at BMO, the collar on the jersey..... Toronto FC is bigger than that. Toronto FC is the spirit of football in this city, and none of the mistakes made by players, management or individuals can tarnish that for me. TFC is bigger than that. It's bigger than us, and it's bigger than we can even imagine. Everyone who's dedicated their time to show the club support is part of it. Every banner made, song sung, trip taken... it all adds up to something bigger than us. The RPB's will be there, though thick or thin, and that's something that will never change.





to summarize: many things will never change, so save your breath.
If you aren't enjoying your experience with Toronto FC, no one is forcing you to stay on board.
Granted, when the team does win the MLS cup (which we will) you'll feel right stupid for bailing when times got a bit tough.

Parkdale
08-11-2009, 01:24 PM
everyone else is writing a novel, so I wanted to do one too!

flatpicker
08-11-2009, 01:29 PM
phew! Thank God you didn't mention a 2-tier MLS format with relegation!

at least that is still a possibility!

Roogsy
08-11-2009, 01:30 PM
Something else that won't change...I will never like Diet Coke!!! :hulk:

Sparky...I agree with almost everything you wrote...except for one thing...sometimes things don't change from their basic state, but they can improve. Status quo is never acceptable, you must always demand and strive for better. From yourself, and others.

Also, there are things in your post that can change. MLSE may one day sell the team. MLS may one day compete with most leagues except maybe the top two etc.

The point is you don't stop trying.

Suds
08-11-2009, 01:30 PM
Just out of curiosity, what kind of "coffee"are you drinking???

ExiledRed
08-11-2009, 01:30 PM
"MLS will never be a world class league"

As long as people have no ambition or imagination and strive for mediocrity, I agree.

The world changes, Parky, people who say 'never going to happen' as a force of habit driven by a culturally ingrained inferiority complex are usually wrong, and just serve to slow down the process.

thanks for your opinion though.

Cambridge_Red
08-11-2009, 01:30 PM
Is that part of the charter? :D

Parkdale
08-11-2009, 01:31 PM
phew! Thank God you didn't mention a 2-tier MLS format with relegation!

at least that is still a possibility!



it's not.

Relagation in north american sports
just not going to happen. There's no way any company would invest in a club knowing that their profits could be cut into a quarter after one season. The only way it could work is if the MLS bought the USL and raised that leage to be an "MLS-2". Even that is far fetched, and it's just way too risky a gamble for any ownership group to take.

Parkdale
08-11-2009, 01:32 PM
Is that part of the charter? :D


nope. just the opinions of one guy.
you know.... an individual with opinions. they do exist! :cool:

Wagner
08-11-2009, 01:32 PM
Nice work Parky.
good post.

We should force new users to acknowledge reading this when they sign up for the message board. ;)

flatpicker
08-11-2009, 01:35 PM
it's not.

Relagation in north american sports
just not going to happen. There's no way any company would invest in a club knowing that their profits could be cut into a quarter after one season. The only way it could work is if the MLS bought the USL and raised that leage to be an "MLS-2". Even that is far fetched, and it's just way too risky a gamble for any ownership group to take.


that merger is actually part of my dream.

I'll start putting the proposal together.

I will lay it out in a clear 7 step process.

Step One... get rid of Garber since he seems so dead set against the idea!

Parkdale
08-11-2009, 01:36 PM
The world changes, Parky, people who say....

hence my '25 years' statement.

Parkdale
08-11-2009, 01:37 PM
Step One... get rid of Garber since he seems so dead set against the idea!


he's just representing the will of the owners. They are the ones that would lose money if their teams dropped into a lower league.

flatpicker
08-11-2009, 01:39 PM
he's just representing the will of the owners. They are the ones that would lose money if their teams dropped into a lower league.


I have a plan to take care of them! I think it's around step 4.

Shep
08-11-2009, 01:39 PM
I can see MLS growing in stature in less than 25 years.

A 2.5 year old club scored on Real Madrid.

Things can shift quickly, especially if sal caps are raised (which should happen in much less than 25) and better talent can be afforded.

ExiledRed
08-11-2009, 01:41 PM
In other news..

Players like David Beckham and Freddy Ljungberg will never come to MLS and Torontonians will never support a soccer team.

ExiledRed
08-11-2009, 01:41 PM
sorry that was news from 2006

Parkdale
08-11-2009, 01:42 PM
A 2.5 year old club scored on Real Madrid.

hahaha... too bad they wern't playing "next goal wins"

Parkdale
08-11-2009, 01:42 PM
In other news..

Players like David Beckham and Freddy Ljungberg will never come to MLS and Torontonians will never support a soccer team.

you know that 99% of us here never believed that, right?

Roogsy
08-11-2009, 01:45 PM
hahaha... too bad they wern't playing "next goal wins"


:smilielol5:

LOL! That was a good one...

Shakes McQueen
08-11-2009, 01:46 PM
MLS will never be a 'world class' league
It's just not going to happen. MLS can earn some respect worldwide, but it's always going to be a small team in a small market. The constant comparisons to the EPL, Serie A, La Liga etc are a waste of breath. Just like the CFL will always be a distant second behind the NFL, and the Russian Hockey league will always be behind the NHL... MLS will never (again, 25 year rule) be held in the same esteem as the major European leagues. I expect the league WILL be on par with some of the minor leagues, like Norway, Scotland, Finland etc. That could happen, but it would take a major cultural shift. I think that shift is starting, but it wont happen over night. For now, there's no point in comparing our league to the big boys. It's just like comparing your high school girlfriend to a supermodel... just frustrating and unrealistic.

I don't think the CFL comparison is relevant. If soccer ever achieves relevancy as a sport among ADULTS in North America, you will absolutely see North America with one of the top leagues in the world. I do agree you are probably right to say it won't happen in 25 years though.

The CFL will always be the lesser to the NFL, because Canada simply doesn't provide a big enough audience to demand big advertising money, or TV rights.

Considering the money that exists in leagues like the EPL and La Liga, despite the relatively small populations of their host countries compared to the United States - imagine how big the sport COULD be here, if it continues to creep upwards in popularity.

There is so much potential viewership in the United States alone, and so much money to be made, you'd have to be mad to ever state definitively that MLS will never exist on the same level as top-tier leagues around the world. It might not happen, but it definitely could. And if it does, it will be the result of a slow burn - not the rapid expansion "do away with the cap" nonsense some people want.

The rest I agree with.

- Scott

Parkdale
08-11-2009, 01:49 PM
MLS may one day compete with most leagues except maybe the top two etc.

exactly. I'd love to see the MLS in the top 5, but I don't expect them to ever crack top 3 (after England, Spain and Italy)

Roogsy
08-11-2009, 01:52 PM
Sorry...you're right. Top 3. I don't think it will ever be possible to crack that top 3, maybe 4 (Germany).

But beyond that, it's open season. With a combined population of 350million and a global market, there is no reason the money and talent isn't there to compete with the top markets in the world.

Nobody will convince me that a country like Holland with 6million people can never be supplanted by a market of 350million?

flatpicker
08-11-2009, 01:54 PM
Sorry...you're right. Top 3. I don't think it will ever be possible to crack that top 3, maybe 4 (Germany).

But beyond that, it's open season. With a combined population of 350million and a global market, there is no reason the money and talent isn't there to compete with the top markets in the world.

Nobody will convince me that a country like Holland with 6million people can never be supplanted by a market of 350million?


I second that.


Now, all we need is Bill Gates to invest in MLS.
That would give as a much need boost!

Dunc
08-11-2009, 01:56 PM
I think you underestimate the potential of the MLS by a lot.

In Canada and the US we are dealing with a football culture that is clearly rapidly growing and a population that is huge in terms of footballing nations. Pro-soccer trend + large market = Eventually having a healthy high-quality league, surely?

I know it'll take a while but I don't know why you'd bother saying it would never happen.

ExiledRed
08-11-2009, 01:56 PM
you know that 99% of us here never believed that, right?

That's bull, if I can say so without offending you.

Even some of the more diehard members were taken by surprise at the display on day one, and plenty of those thought it was a novelty thing and the numbers would eventually dwindle.

There are also a whole shitload of people on the waiting list that believed that, and fume on here every day about how scalpers and casuals prevent them from getting tickets.

Roogsy
08-11-2009, 01:57 PM
I second that.


Now, all we need is Bill Gates to invest in MLS.
That would give as a much need boost!


Paul Allen is a much safer bet!

Wasn't he looking at helping get Portland in?

Parkdale
08-11-2009, 02:00 PM
Nobody will convince me that a country like Holland with 6million people can never be supplanted by a market of 350million?


oh totally!

especially when you look at the US men's national team. They have more money put into their training, gear and coaching that anyone else. Too bad they are missing the overall skills.

flatpicker
08-11-2009, 02:02 PM
I think you underestimate the potential of the MLS by a lot.

In Canada and the US we are dealing with a football culture that is clearly rapidly growing and a population that is huge in terms of footballing nations. Pro-soccer trend + large market = Eventually having a healthy high-quality league, surely?

I know it'll take a while but I don't know why you'd bother saying it would never happen.

agreed...

And I think it's important to grow MLS into a more globally accepted format.
There are so many footie fans in North America who continue to ignore MLS.
Things like "single table" and more emphasis on league champ would help lure those fans in I think.
Even the dreaded "relegation" would probably attract more of the footie fans.
People oppose it because they think owners would not want the risk.
But I think, with a cleverly planned 2-tier MLS (including USL teams), more of the old-school fans would pay attention.
So, you could say that being relegated is bad for club business... yet relegation is good for league business...
Kinda balances out I think (especially with revenue sharing)

Parkdale
08-11-2009, 02:06 PM
I know it'll take a while but I don't know why you'd bother saying it would never happen.

read close... I'm saying that in 25 years it might happen, but who knows.

I think that shift is starting, but it wont happen over night. For now, there's no point in comparing our league to the big boys.

^ that's what I said. The shift is starting, but it will be a slow and steady change.

Roogsy
08-11-2009, 02:09 PM
That's a little different from "never change"... :D

LOL!

Tintin
08-11-2009, 02:11 PM
Sorry...you're right. Top 3. I don't think it will ever be possible to crack that top 3, maybe 4 (Germany).

But beyond that, it's open season. With a combined population of 350million and a global market, there is no reason the money and talent isn't there to compete with the top markets in the world.

Nobody will convince me that a country like Holland with 6million people can never be supplanted by a market of 350million?


Yes but it is the number 1 sport in the Netherlands. In NA it;s number 5 or 6... so you get the better Dutch athletes playing football while the better NA athletes play other sports...

Shep
08-11-2009, 02:12 PM
hahaha... too bad they wern't playing "next goal wins"

lolz yeah too bad eh??

What the does this have to do with what I wrote? I was pointing out that even a new born club can dent a 100+ year old giant.

I thought I kept it simple enough.. things change, especially in football. 25 years is a bloody long time. If you think MLS will always be a lesser league, have fun with that.

Shakes McQueen
08-11-2009, 02:15 PM
read close... I'm saying that in 25 years it might happen, but who knows.

I think that shift is starting, but it wont happen over night. For now, there's no point in comparing our league to the big boys.

^ that's what I said. The shift is starting, but it will be a slow and steady change.

I would hope nobody is comparing our league to the best leagues in the world right now. If they are, they are delusional.

- Scott

Roogsy
08-11-2009, 02:17 PM
Yes but it is the number 1 sport in the Netherlands. In NA it;s number 5 or 6... so you get the better Dutch athletes playing football while the better NA athletes play other sports...


Not necessarily true.

Are you telling me the best athletes become baseball players? And yet it's their #1 game.

Some athletes become soccer players later in life because their athleticism gives them that choice. Obviously though, they sacrifice some of that technical skill because they haven't been playing soccer day and night since they were 5 like Ronaldo.

However, in a market so blessed with gifted athletes, you are still going to get a decent pool to choose from. And when it comes to the league itself, we are then looking at marketing power, not just homegrown talent to feed the teams with rosters. Meaning, if the league can grow to a large enough size, the payrolls will increase to the point where you can attract top talent from overseas, from any continent.

That is the advantage of size and marketing power. North America has it. And it's going to be key in growing the game.

TorontoBlades
08-11-2009, 02:19 PM
The Red Patch Boys will support Toronto FC
It's bigger than the management, the current players, the shitty turf at BMO, the collar on the jersey..... Toronto FC is bigger than that. Toronto FC is the spirit of football in this city, and none of the mistakes made by players, management or individuals can tarnish that for me. TFC is bigger than that. It's bigger than us, and it's bigger than we can even imagine. Everyone who's dedicated their time to show the club support is part of it. Every banner made, song sung, trip taken... it all adds up to something bigger than us. The RPB's will be there, though thick or thin, and that's something that will never change.


.....except during "meaningless friendlies"

Parkdale
08-11-2009, 02:21 PM
What the does this have to do with what I wrote? I was pointing out that even a new born club can dent a 100+ year old giant.

If you think MLS will always be a lesser league, have fun with that.

we didn't 'dent' them. we score one goal against their 5, and they played in first gear.

I think that MLS will never be on par with the EPL, Serie A or La Liga.
It's not that I don't expect the league to improve, but I don't think
that it will ever become the predominant league in the world.

I want it to crack top 5, I really do.




TinTin does have a point. The biggest sport in the Netherlands is football, so kids will aspire to be football players from a young age. If that's the most popular sport, then it will attract more young athletes than others.

mighty_torontofc_2008
08-11-2009, 02:25 PM
In other news..

Players like David Beckham and Freddy Ljungberg will never come to MLS and Torontonians will never support a soccer team.


back in the early 80s when the NASL was still around, people said the USA would never put together a quality National team...how times change..:D

mmmikey
08-11-2009, 02:27 PM
good post, agree with 99% of what you said parkdale.. with the exception of the timeline.. so much money in north america i think MLS can get up to the tier just below the top 4 within the 25. but close enough that 25 years is fair..

Parkdale
08-11-2009, 02:32 PM
good post, agree with 99% of what you said parkdale.. with the exception of the timeline.. so much money in north america i think MLS can get up to the tier just below the top 4 within the 25. but close enough that 25 years is fair..

unfortunately, the North American sports audience is fickle.

we aren't going anywhere, but the majority of people tend to follow the trends.
Just looks at the fall or boxing and the rise of UFC/MMA.

or you could debate that Formula1 or Rally Car racing is the best kind of race... but people still love nascar.

NA is hard to understand at times.

Shep
08-11-2009, 02:38 PM
I think that MLS will...be on par with the EPL, Serie A or La Liga.

...it will...crack top 5.


C'mon, let's not get carried away.. It's good to see you coming down from the 25 year mark, but it's still not happening for at least another 10-15 years. No need to go getting all excited so soon.

It's fun to quote only some of what you write. It may kill the original context, and obscure your point, but it opens the door for a joke or two and works better for how I want to reply.

:D

mmmikey
08-11-2009, 02:41 PM
Not necessarily true.

Are you telling me the best athletes become baseball players? And yet it's their #1 game.

Some athletes become soccer players later in life because their athleticism gives them that choice. Obviously though, they sacrifice some of that technical skill because they haven't been playing soccer day and night since they were 5 like Ronaldo.

However, in a market so blessed with gifted athletes, you are still going to get a decent pool to choose from. And when it comes to the league itself, we are then looking at marketing power, not just homegrown talent to feed the teams with rosters. Meaning, if the league can grow to a large enough size, the payrolls will increase to the point where you can attract top talent from overseas, from any continent.

That is the advantage of size and marketing power. North America has it. And it's going to be key in growing the game.

as an add on to your point:

over the past 50 years there are probably countless people who could have been major international stars but never pursued soccer for one reason or another.. lack of interest from parents (i sure got talked out of it as a kid! :), local coverage implanting the sport in our sub concious, availability of quality programs from high school and up, etc. there are many wasted generations of soccer players right now stuck in a cubicle somewhere.

as soccer continues to emerge and become more mainstream, more and more of these people will get the chance previous generations didn't enjoy. eventually the sheer size of the NA population will catch up and tip the scales.

part of the reason germany and brazil stay up near the top is they enjoy very large populations. which makes the skill of a smaller country like holland all the more remarkable.

Parkdale
08-11-2009, 02:41 PM
It's good to see ... you...getting...excited so soon.it works better for how I want to ... joke

:D

editing is fun!

KdotOdot
08-11-2009, 02:52 PM
unfortunately, the North American sports audience is fickle.

we aren't going anywhere, but the majority of people tend to follow the trends.
Just looks at the fall or boxing and the rise of UFC/MMA.

or you could debate that Formula1 or Rally Car racing is the best kind of race... but people still love nascar.

NA is hard to understand at times.

Actually that is pretty bad analogy considering the similarities between Boxing and MMA (UFC is a brand) they're both about fighting, just under different rules. Same with Nascar and F1. It's still racing just with differnet rules.

If anything North American Soccer itself is the trend, pulling in fans from other sports.

Parkdale
08-11-2009, 03:00 PM
Actually that is pretty bad analogy considering the similarities between Boxing and MMA (UFC is a brand) they're both about fighting, just under different rules. Same with Nascar and F1. It's still racing just with differnet rules.

yeah, that's why I said UFC/MMA (for people who don't follow it, they are synonymous)


You're right that soccer could be seen as the trend sport in North America.
I can't see the league being taken seriously world wide until the sport is
taken seriously at home. In Toronto, there's no question about it,
but in many other cities, soccer is nothing more than a sport for kids.
Hopefully that can change soon.

here's another comparison that might add to our hopes --- basketball!

If you look at the US, basketball is still smaller than NFL and MLB,
but in the rest of the world it's getting huge. It's probably the fastest
growing international sport right now (soccer is already big, so it can't grow much)
It seems like more people in the rest of the world care about the NBA than
people do in the US. It wouldn't surprise me if MLS could make that happen for them.

KdotOdot
08-11-2009, 03:09 PM
yeah, that's why I said UFC/MMA (for people who don't follow it, they are synonymous)


You're right that soccer could be seen as the trend sport in North America.
I can't see the league being taken seriously world wide until the sport is
taken seriously at home. In Toronto, there's no question about it,
but in many other cities, soccer is nothing more than a sport for kids.
Hopefully that can change soon.

here's another comparison that might add to our hopes --- basketball!

If you look at the US, basketball is still smaller than NFL and MLB,
but in the rest of the world it's getting huge. It's probably the fastest
growing international sport right now (soccer is already big, so it can't grow much)
It seems like more people in the rest of the world care about the NBA than
people do in the US. It wouldn't surprise me if MLS could make that happen for them.

Actually that would completely flabergast me. Thats like saying the USA will be interested in the Euro Basketball league.

SMH so what are you trying to say?

Parkdale
08-11-2009, 03:19 PM
yeah, I worded that one awkwardly.

I could see the rest of the world caring about the MLS before seeing the majority of Americans caring about it. People who grab the newspaper and read the standings and box scores from all the major (football) leagues might be inclined to read about MLS standings. That person would show interest to the league before any NFL/MLB converts would.


I don't really care who wins (insert euro league here) but I'll still read the standings and the recaps in the paper.

fetajr
08-11-2009, 03:45 PM
Will the long ball never change??

if thats the case, then i'm jumping ship right now.

BayernTFC
08-11-2009, 04:05 PM
phew! Thank God you didn't mention a 2-tier MLS format with relegation!

at least that is still a possibility!
Here's an interesting comment I found on ESPN's MLS Power Rankings:


The Red Bulls are exhibit 1A for why there needs to be relegation in MLS.
http://soccernet.espn.go.com/powerranking?league=USA.1&season=2009&week=21&cc=5901

Beach_Red
08-11-2009, 04:16 PM
Sorry...you're right. Top 3. I don't think it will ever be possible to crack that top 3, maybe 4 (Germany).

But beyond that, it's open season. With a combined population of 350million and a global market, there is no reason the money and talent isn't there to compete with the top markets in the world.

Nobody will convince me that a country like Holland with 6million people can never be supplanted by a market of 350million?

America still wins the most medals at the Olympics, like it or not. If they ever really want to, there's no reason they couldn't win the World Cup, too.

There was a time when very few kids in the USA wanted to play basketball and that changed. If the same thing happens to soccer (and it really is coming), then there's no reason they won't be able to compete at the highest levels.

Roogsy
08-11-2009, 04:17 PM
^ Agreed.

In a country where even in hockey there is very little interest, they put together some potent rosters anyways.

Americans barely have to try and they can dominate sports at will because of their resources.

Stryker
08-11-2009, 04:23 PM
^ Agreed.

In a country where even in hockey there is very little interest, they put together some potent rosters anyways.

Americans barely have to try and they can dominate sports at will because of their resources.

Exactly. MLS will never be the number one league around the world, but it'll likely crack the top 5 many many years from now.
It's all about the benjamins baby.

SilverSamurai
08-11-2009, 04:34 PM
I would be content with MLS being in the top 10 leagues in the world, but I don't think they'll ever be #1 on the continent... :hide:
I do hope to be proven wrong though.

kodiakTFC
08-11-2009, 05:08 PM
The way I see it, my future kids will be able to watch some class-A footy if MLS continues to develop as it has in the past 5 years. As for MLS' rank in the future within the next 25 years; I don't see why top 10 isn't a possibility, just rather unlikely.

Super
08-11-2009, 05:21 PM
"MLS will never be a world class league"

As long as people have no ambition or imagination and strive for mediocrity, I agree.

I couldn't agree more with you, Ian. If we all sit back and appear grateful to even have a league we are less likely to see improvements made. Case in point is the protest made after the LA game - few days later Tom Anselmi was speaking out about the grass, what needed to be done, and made a promise that they were prepared to pay the expense as well. He would have never come out and said this without the protest.

Parkdale
08-11-2009, 05:30 PM
so no comments on the other points? (other than MLS's ranking in the world)

SilverSamurai
08-11-2009, 05:33 PM
Well it's kind of hard to move up the world rankings when you get outbid on players, your rising stars get "poached" and you're lower income players can't even survive...

TFC RealDeal RPB
08-11-2009, 05:40 PM
Thing's that well never change.............. MLSE winning a cup !!! any cup

Super
08-11-2009, 05:45 PM
so no comments on the other points? (other than MLS's ranking in the world)

Sure, I'll bite.

I agree with you that TFC will never be owned by someone other than MLSE. It has proven to be a great investment, and, like you said, it would take a mad billionaire to make a successful bid for the club at this point in time.

While I believe you are correct that the MLS will never be a World Class league, I still think that we could and should make steps towards continued growth - without setting a goal of being a world class league or whatever. We need to raise the salary cap, and we need to make the league a little less Mickey Mouse to make it more desireable for young talent outside of North America. Bringing in new teams in football friendly cities will help to grow the economics of the league. I understand the argument that the league is still new, and we have to be careful not to end up like the old failed leagues of North America, but we also have to be careful that we do not miss the opportunity of taking this game to the next level. TFC is hot in Toronto right now, but the product is simply not good enough for continued growth. That's my main concern. Money is pouring into the club, and yet we're not allowed to spend beyond a cap that is designed to keep alive clubs in markets that couldn't care less about the sport. THAT is a major problem for me. There are TONS of football fans in this city, and I'm sure the Mickey Mouse factor keeps away 4 out of 5. That needs to change! We can't get BIG because it might make it harder for smaller clubs to compete. Boo hoo.

I think what I want to add to all of your points is that we should always push to see improvements made. Let's not halt chances for improvement by allowing the MLS and MLSE to think that the status quo is acceptable. That doesn't mean what we have is shit, and it doesn't mean we're ungrateful to have football in our city. It just means we love the game too much to not want it to be the very best it can be. And I personally see a looooong list of improvements that can be made. We need to talk about these and highlight them any chance we get - until the list is small enough where it's not really holding the league, and us as a team, back. Most leagues in the world have grown into maturity and though improvements can be made in all of them, it's minor stuff like a paint job. We're (TFC, at least) more like a millionaire still living in a shed.

Super
08-11-2009, 05:46 PM
Thing's that well never change.............. MLSE winning a cup !!! any cup

We won the Canadian Cup. :cool:

Hitcho
08-11-2009, 06:00 PM
Flats - I'd run frmo USL like a man possessed when it comes to the two tier MLS plan. Why? Stigma - stigma of a "lower" league. If there si any future in the two tier MLS we have dreamed up, then I think it has to come from MLS expanding organically with new sides (whether from USL or otherwise) until they get to 20, and then split the league. Marketing would then be key, along with assuring owners and fans that it;s just shifting between the two homogenised MLS leagues and nothing mroe sinister. but if you rope in USL some way or some how, people will freak out and run for the (relegation free) hills I would think.

Parkdale, Roogsy (and others) - I think MLS could grow into a serious big boy league in the fullness of time. If you look at the EPL it actually pucnches way above its weight in terms of world power (compare the england team to the spain team and then look at how the domestic leagues are perceived). Flood it with top talent from overseas and it becomes a powerhouse league with serious money being made. Of course, how you get there is another issue, because there are a lot of hurdles to overcome ont he way - the USA's relative disinterest in soccer, the dominance of the rpe-existign "big sports" there, the anti-soccer bias that is seemingly endemic through all non soccer fans in the US making it hard to grow the sport among seasoned sports fans, the lack of quality youth academies whcih litter conutries like Holland, etc. Much of this applies more to the US MNT than MLS I think, because to get to the quarters of the WC is one thing. TO win it is another thing entirely. You can make the league great with overseas players and the overseas money that comes with it (hence EPL is great and not just good, and if Ronaldo, Torres et al were playing in MLS you better believe the markets in Asia that support players and not teams would be paying for the subscription channels to watch the MLS games) but you can't make the US MNT great without the right culture in place domestically.

Something else that won't change - beer will NEVER be reasonably priced at BMO Field...

Hitcho
08-11-2009, 06:03 PM
Also, I totlly agree with your comments on "don't think you are entitled to a winning team just because you buy a ticket" etc. It pisses me off the way some people rant on here about not being an expansion team any more and why the frig aren;t MLSE giving us a winning team yet. That's not what it's about, that's not hwo it works and there's no place for that kind of attitude in sports. It's an American sickness and it saddnes me to see it among TFC fans.

Super
08-11-2009, 06:07 PM
Every time the product improves on the field you will see a greater interest in the league - period. We need to improve the product first and foremost - and that starts with the salary cap. A league backed by a population of some 350 million people has the potential to be massive. Add to that the potential for sponsorships, and the draw that is the American lifestyle, I think the MLS can grow well beyond any of our wildest dreams.

We're the Wild West of football, people :)

trane
08-11-2009, 06:09 PM
"MLS will never be a world class league"

As long as people have no ambition or imagination and strive for mediocrity, I agree.

The world changes, Parky, people who say 'never going to happen' as a force of habit driven by a culturally ingrained inferiority complex are usually wrong, and just serve to slow down the process.

thanks for your opinion though.

I sort of agree with this. In the current landscape, Parky is right, however, as the socio-economic reality around the sport changes, we may be a world class league.

However, I would have to agree that it would take another 20 years.

I_AM_CANADIAN
08-11-2009, 06:40 PM
Collars rule.

AL-MO
08-11-2009, 06:47 PM
Parkdale will be Parkdale.

Whoop
08-11-2009, 07:10 PM
Sparky...I agree with almost everything you wrote...except for one thing...sometimes things don't change from their basic state, but they can improve. Status quo is never acceptable, you must always demand and strive for better. From yourself, and others.

Also, there are things in your post that can change. MLSE may one day sell the team. MLS may one day compete with most leagues except maybe the top two etc.

The point is you don't stop trying.


"MLS will never be a world class league"

As long as people have no ambition or imagination and strive for mediocrity, I agree.

The world changes, Parky, people who say 'never going to happen' as a force of habit driven by a culturally ingrained inferiority complex are usually wrong, and just serve to slow down the process.

thanks for your opinion though.

^^
Agreed.

Oldtimer
08-11-2009, 07:31 PM
Bruno Hartrell (owner of the Toronto Lynx in 2006) stated that Toronto will never attract more than 2500-3000 fans to watch a soccer match.

Everyone knew (after 3 failed attempts) that pro soccer would never work in Toronto.

When I was a kid, baseball was the big sport for kids. I was the oddball kid who played soccer because of my Euro dad. We all know that soccer would never become the number one summer sport, let alone ever beat hockey (our real national sport) for participation levels -- ooops, it happened!

In 1996, the accepted wisdom was that MLS would fold within 3 years. Many articles were written on that subject.

That's the problem with predictions... things can change, often faster than you think.

ensco
08-11-2009, 08:02 PM
Great thread. You want a comment on another prediction Parkdale? There's one of yours I'd bet against.

There is a decent likelihood that TFC will not be owned by MLSE someday. TFC is a small, non-core holding of MLSE.

MLSE will be sold by the Teachers Pension Plan, probably in the not too distant future. MLSE is an anomaly in their portfolio - one of the OTPP's very few control investments. It's a pretty controversial holding - I know someone in the teachers union who isn't that thrilled with this investment, he thinks it should have been sold by now but that the directors at MLSE enjoy the perks that go with being involved with this a little too much.

So what happens if/when MLSE is sold? MLSE is a conglomerate. While the ACC, Leafs and Raptors make sense to own as a set, MLSE's other holdings (the condos, Marlies, GolTV, TFC) are easy to peel off and could be sold. Who knows what the next MLSE owner might think about soccer, or how much purchase price-related debt they may need to pay down?....

Super
08-11-2009, 08:07 PM
Bruno Hartrell (owner of the Toronto Lynx in 2006) stated that Toronto will never attract more than 2500-3000 fans to watch a soccer match.

Problem is it was a shit product. I lived in Montreal for a while and decided to give the Impact a chance (I know, I'm scum). I went a few times, but it just didn't have a genuine feel to it. No supporters. No atmosphere. Just a bunch of soccer moms taking their kids out for the day - and they all seemed bored. The football was pretty poor as well - although not much worse than the MLS as we know by now. Still, it didn't feel right. And I think that's the difference between failure and success. It's SO important to nurture and keep the atmosphere and FEEL of the game-day experience. Without it even the most passionate footy fans would rather sit at home and watch the Prem on TV.

When I eventually moved to Toronto I thought of giving the Lynx a chance, but looking at the attendance numbers, and the stadium, I just didn't feel like going. It would just make me homesick for my old home country and the games I used to go to there. TFC now, though, has MORE than brought the FEEL back to me. And for that I'm so happy - and want to fight HARD to keep it there, too!

jloome
08-11-2009, 09:08 PM
Problem is it was a shit product. I lived in Montreal for a while and decided to give the Impact a chance (I know, I'm scum). I went a few times, but it just didn't have a genuine feel to it. No supporters. No atmosphere. Just a bunch of soccer moms taking their kids out for the day - and they all seemed bored. The football was pretty poor as well - although not much worse than the MLS as we know by now. Still, it didn't feel right. And I think that's the difference between failure and success. It's SO important to nurture and keep the atmosphere and FEEL of the game-day experience. Without it even the most passionate footy fans would rather sit at home and watch the Prem on TV.

When I eventually moved to Toronto I thought of giving the Lynx a chance, but looking at the attendance numbers, and the stadium, I just didn't feel like going. It would just make me homesick for my old home country and the games I used to go to there. TFC now, though, has MORE than brought the FEEL back to me. And for that I'm so happy - and want to fight HARD to keep it there, too!

This is key. This is why it worked: a core demographic of hardcore soccer fans who couldn't be bothered with the crappy USL play and ownership were convinced by the signing of Beckham that MLS was taking the game seriously enough to be worthy of support.

The day the Beckham signing was announced, season ticket purchases for TFC jumped from about 4,000 to over 10,000. It wasn't about him, it was about what he represents: a better quality of football.

That's the other reason Parky's predicition may be wrong. That core demographic also demands across-the-board brand improvement. The clubs that don't recognize this and adapt to it, including playing quality, won't survive and profit in the long run from the likely steady growth of the sport as a popular attraction to that core (multi-cultural) demographic. So MLS may well be a top league someday; it's already in the top five in average attendance, usually.

The question is how much buy-in there will be from the larger body of sports fans as the "community spirit" feeling around these new-style MLS clubs grows.

Roogsy
08-11-2009, 09:36 PM
Something else that won't change - beer will NEVER be reasonably priced at BMO Field...


We have found the ultimate answer in this thread!

Oldtimer
08-11-2009, 09:39 PM
The day the Beckham signing was announced, season ticket purchases for TFC jumped from about 4,000 to over 10,000. It wasn't about him, it was about what he represents: a better quality of football.



Not true. It was already over 7,000-8,000. It jumped to over 10,500 in the space of less than a week when Beckham was announced. The "Beckham bounce" was real and noticeable, but it wasn't as extreme as you remember.

What sold the club in the early days was Paul B's strategy of meeting with organized supporters of Euro clubs to hear what they wanted and to let them know that TFC was going to be the authentic experience, not some Disneyfied "soccer mom" deal.

Roogsy
08-11-2009, 09:43 PM
Not true. It was already over 7,000-8,000. It jumped to over 10,500 in the space of less than a week when Beckham was announced. The "Beckham bounce" was real and noticeable, but it wasn't as extreme as you remember.

What sold the club in the early days was Paul B's strategy of meeting with organized supporters of Euro clubs to hear what they wanted and to let them know that TFC was going to be the authentic experience, not some Disneyfied "soccer mom" deal.

Yep...it was well over 7k by the time Beckham was announced and by the end of a couple of weeks, it had jumped to just under 11k. So it was a nice bounce, but it's not like the tickets weren't selling well anyways. What you saw here was the "scalper" bounce more than anything. To be honest, I think we can blame Beckham for most of the scalpers at BMO Field.

Hitcho
08-11-2009, 10:43 PM
To be honest, I think we can blame Beckham for most of the scalpers at BMO Field.

Agree 100% Roogsy. I really wish he'd been announced a few months later. :(

TFCRegina
08-11-2009, 10:49 PM
You forgot:

The Red Bulls will always be shite.

Cashcleaner
08-11-2009, 11:08 PM
Toronto FC will never be owned by someone other than MLSE

Didn't they say the same thing about Labatt's owning the Blue Jays?

MLS will never be a 'world class' league

Absolutely false. The sporting economy of the United States and Canada is so much stronger than England, Spain, Potrugal, or Italy; and has a far greater potential for success. Simply put, we have the most people with the most money. Yes, we do have competition in several other sports organisations like the NBA, NFL/CFL, and NHL; but our growth potential is still very significant.


Running a sports team is a business

Agreed.

Toronto FC is based in North America

It most certainly is. And I agree, we shouldn't be preoccupied with how things are done in Europe or South America all the time. It's one thing to respect the soccer traditions of other countries, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't create our own unique concepts.

The Red Patch Boys will support Toronto FC

Agreed. I owe no allegiance to a board of directors or front office staff or the numerous investors who ultimately control our club. My loyalty is to the players, coaches, and staff who have committed themselves to being the best they can be for the crest on their shirt.

Rudi
08-11-2009, 11:15 PM
I need to read other responses before posting. :D

Kevvv
08-11-2009, 11:31 PM
I need to read other responses before posting. :D


Really? No-one else does.



MLS will never be a 'world class' league

Absolutely false. The sporting economy of the United States and Canada is so much stronger than England, Spain, Potrugal, or Italy; and has a far greater potential for success. Simply put, we have the most people with the most money. Yes, we do have competition in several other sports organisations like the NBA, NFL/CFL, and NHL; but our growth potential is still very significant.


I would say that hockey never realised its growth potential in North America (and I'm not referring to places like Phoenix). Doesn't mean it can't or won't happen to soccer, but it still hasn't in many, many markets.

(Granted, never is a long time. But in the foreseeable future, until there is a major economic and demographic shift in Europe and North America, it's not going to be a dominant league in the world .




Toronto FC is based in North America


It most certainly is. And I agree, we shouldn't be preoccupied with how things are done in Europe or South America all the time. It's one thing to respect the soccer traditions of other countries, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't create our own unique concepts.


It also means we're bound my the realities of geography and climate - huge distances between some cities (making travel tougher and more costly), and unbearably hot in some places at certain times, and undeniably cold at others. No matter how hardy we may be, 20,000 folks are not filling BMO or Toyota Park when it's 15 below.

James17930
08-11-2009, 11:35 PM
Good points all around. I agree some of the discussion becomes tiresome sometimes . . . so sometimes it's good to take a break from the board. :)

Mark in Ottawa
08-12-2009, 07:00 AM
And as we always hear people whining about... change for the better takes time!

Yes you can make fast changes at the risk of mortgaging your future but this ends up setting you up for big time failure down the road (anyone remember that the Florida Panthers actually were a winner for a year or two after loading up with older, over priced talent?)

The 5 year plan (Organization, Team, Contender, Playoff, Playoff Success) is often mentioned but sometimes a few bumps in the road mean that some steps take a bit longer.

I am just going to sit back, watch the team evolve, enjoy the fact that after much waiting I have a domestic product to cheer for and above all....
Support my team and believe... really believe... that the best is yet to come.

Parkdale
08-12-2009, 07:36 AM
TFC is hot in Toronto right now, but the product is simply not good enough for continued growth. That's my main concern.

that's a very, very good point.

In the past, Toronto has been a very fickle sports market. The leafs are a freak show anomaly, but we could go on for days about the causes for that. The jays were huge in the early 90's, but slumped around the millennium. The Raps had huge numbers when Carter was actually playing, but dropped when he decided to call it in. Toronto FC fans (not supporters) might go the same way one day. hell... that goalless streak was hard enough for us to take, and we're not going anywhere!

Toronto loves a winning team. Supporters will stand behind a losing team, but the average ticket buyer will not.

Parkdale
08-12-2009, 07:36 AM
oh, and it's very nice to see some of the responses in here.
everyone once in a while there's intelligent discussion without name calling. imagine that!

Mark in Ottawa
08-12-2009, 07:43 AM
Toronto loves a winning team. Supporters will stand behind a losing team, but the average ticket buyer will not.

And in its own way Ottawa is just the same.
The problem is we don't have enough population to support sports teams by supporters and true fans alone :(

flatpicker
08-12-2009, 07:45 AM
oh, and it's very nice to see some of the responses in here.
everyone once in a while there's intelligent discussion without name calling. imagine that!

ass!

Parkdale
08-12-2009, 07:48 AM
and now for some fun....

more truths!



those are not really chip butties
people in the west concourse have no idea how to line up properly
there are more douchebags at BMO than at most other venues in the city
the turf is worn out. It wasn't bad for what it was, but now it's spent.
if you can drink one of those large beers before it gets warm, you might have a problem

Parkdale
08-12-2009, 07:49 AM
ass!

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dvM_mgygD1g/SQ41UnD6CFI/AAAAAAAAAvE/FgLJhiYuwUQ/s400/Ass-Backwards-Donkey.jpg

^^^^^ YOU ^^^^^^

Parkdale
08-12-2009, 08:17 AM
So what happens if/when MLSE is sold? MLSE is a conglomerate. While the ACC, Leafs and Raptors make sense to own as a set, MLSE's other holdings (the condos, Marlies, GolTV, TFC) are easy to peel off and could be sold.

that's a good point.

IF there was to be a full scale 'breakdown' of MLSE's assets, Toronto FC would probably be the first thing sold. It's the lowest cost, and has proven to be a solid revenue generator. The leafs would cost a fortune, and the raps would be doomed if they wern't tied to the leafs. The other assets would be bundled together somehow. GolTV/LeafsTV/RapsTV is an entity on it's own, and could be sold to any major cable broadcaster.

As it stands now, the ROI (return on investment) of TFC is too good to give up.

ensco
08-12-2009, 08:26 AM
As it stands now, the ROI (return on investment) of TFC is too good to give up.

Probably true. But it depends on the price. We need an Abramovich. I nominate Alex Shnaider.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Shnaider

Roogsy
08-12-2009, 08:28 AM
that's a good point.

IF there was to be a full scale 'breakdown' of MLSE's assets, Toronto FC would probably be the first thing sold. It's the lowest cost, and has proven to be a solid revenue generator. The leafs would cost a fortune, and the raps would be doomed if they wern't tied to the leafs. The other assets would be bundled together somehow. GolTV/LeafsTV/RapsTV is an entity on it's own, and could be sold to any major cable broadcaster.

As it stands now, the ROI (return on investment) of TFC is too good to give up.

You bean counter you...

Steve
08-12-2009, 08:32 AM
that's a good point.

IF there was to be a full scale 'breakdown' of MLSE's assets, Toronto FC would probably be the first thing sold. It's the lowest cost, and has proven to be a solid revenue generator. The leafs would cost a fortune, and the raps would be doomed if they wern't tied to the leafs. The other assets would be bundled together somehow. GolTV/LeafsTV/RapsTV is an entity on it's own, and could be sold to any major cable broadcaster.

As it stands now, the ROI (return on investment) of TFC is too good to give up.

Though I agree it might be first on the block, there's just too much synergy between sports teams (in terms of marketing, venue, etc) to let it go. The problem is, TFC is going to be more profitable, and more successful, under a company like MLSE because of its other sporting assets. That means that if they ever did think about selling, the price would be too high for other buyers (again, since the profit projections would conceivably be higher under MLSE than the buyer). Of course, that discounts the option of a weathly soccer fan overpaying for the team on purpose; though personally that situation would make me very nervous. What happens if the new owner creates an untenable financial situation with the club, then gets bored, goes broke, dies, etc? A team in debt is not an attractive investment, and we might see the club crash and burn financially because of overspending (though luckily MLS rules prevent that from happening too much).

As for your original post, I agree with most of it, though again I'm not as convinced on the "world class" stage. Not that I think it's inevitable, but you never know with sports here. With the combined GDP of Canada and the states, and the sporting culture that's here, I wouldn't be surprised if it did take off and break the top 5. I also wouldn't be surprised if MLS failed, or if it was always a small fish. You never can tell. The main points I agree with though are the "Sports are a business" and "MLS is in North America". Both of these things I think need to be repeated on this board, as people tend to forget about them constantly.

ensco
08-12-2009, 08:45 AM
Though I agree it might be first on the block, there's just too much synergy between sports teams (in terms of marketing, venue, etc) to let it go. The problem is, TFC is going to be more profitable, and more successful, under a company like MLSE because of its other sporting assets. That means that if they ever did think about selling, the price would be too high for other buyers (again, since the profit projections would conceivably be higher under MLSE than the buyer).

This model as not as widespread as it would seem. There are big local MLSE-style sports conglomerates in NY, Philly, Denver, LA....maybe one or two other NA markets. The NFL forbids it. Mostly, teams are still owned in single entities.

The reality is, it's a questionable model. There are synergies in the buildings, and in sharing administrative costs, but these aren't massive. The TV synergy, which underpins the MLSE-style model, has not been compelling thus far - valuable teams have value to TV networks, you as the team owner haven't needed to own the network to extract that value.

prizby
08-12-2009, 08:47 AM
well said parky

Hitcho
08-12-2009, 08:54 AM
MLS will never be a 'world class' league

Absolutely false. The sporting economy of the United States and Canada is so much stronger than England, Spain, Potrugal, or Italy; and has a far greater potential for success. Simply put, we have the most people with the most money. Yes, we do have competition in several other sports organisations like the NBA, NFL/CFL, and NHL; but our growth potential is still very significant.


Toronto FC is based in North America


It most certainly is. And I agree, we shouldn't be preoccupied with how things are done in Europe or South America all the time. It's one thing to respect the soccer traditions of other countries, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't create our own unique concepts.



You've missed out an important step in the analysis though - the EPL isn't a powerhouse league because England has the most people with the most money. The money comes from overseas markets siging up for the tv rights, which is then used to get in some of the best overseas players and the circle goes on.

So North America having "the most people with the most money" is actually kind of irrelevant, because it cannot compete with the vast swathes of Asia, Africa and Europe that are signing up for tv rights to leagues like the EPL and La Liga.

Besides which, all those American people are already embedded in their own sports and are not about to make a dramatic switch, en masse, to soccer, which they distrust and view as a threat to the traditional American sports. So again, having "the most people" is not a big factor.

As for the traditions thing, the only way to tap into the foreign markets and soak up some of the tv money being thrown at leagues like the EPL is to throw off the American shackles and embrace the footballing traditions of Europe. Without that, MLS will never seriously crack the world tv rights market and as a result will never start pulling in the world's top players.

And another thing - to get the top players here, MLS has to get seriously in step with Europe in terms of when its season starts and ends, not arranging match weeks on FIFA dates, etc. Otherwise top players will stay away for fear of hurting their international careers. It wouldn't hurt to schedule matches at times that are convenient for international viewing either, if and when the league starts to attract top players from overseas, so the markets in asia etc can see the players they idolise.

But will the US populace embrace all of these changes? I seriously doubt it, and Garber and the league don't have the balls or the intention of giving America the finger and getting the league in line with the rest of the world. That's fair enough, it's an American product and the bottom line is without the crowds in the stadia there is no league, and nothing to grow into a "top 5 in the world" product.

So that's the Catch .22 in all of this - in order to survive MLS has to cater to the US market. In order to seriously grow (and by that I mean in international terms, not just within North American borders) it has to screw the US market and pander to European traditions and Asian tv markets. But then what happens to the US market? Will it stay loyal?

I think MLS is what it is and, subject to a bit more domestic growth which supports a 20 team league with some teams getting pretty shitty attendance figures, it's not going to blossom much beyond what it is now. The US market will never buy into soccer the way it does the Superbowl and the World Series and the international markets will never take the league seriously while it remains such a clearly American product, nor will the world's top players.

So, Parkdale is right. MLS will never be a world class league (at least within his 25 year definition of "never").

Parkdale
08-12-2009, 09:00 AM
^ now that was a well presented case.

tlear
08-12-2009, 09:11 AM
Think about what would happen if by some crazy chance US manages to get to World cup final in 2010? Also if US manages to get another WC? 2018..

I think a lot of things for MLS depend on sucess of the USMNT. Interest in the league might really spike and change many things if USMNT becomes one of the "greats" and that can and most likely will happen.

Parkdale
08-12-2009, 09:19 AM
Think about what would happen if by some crazy chance US manages to get to World cup final in 2010? Also if US manages to get another WC? 2018..

I think a lot of things for MLS depend on sucess of the USMNT. Interest in the league might really spike and change many things if USMNT becomes one of the "greats" and that can and most likely will happen.

interesting point.

I'm sure that a good showing of the USMNT would be a big boost to the league, but only if the players on the winning team played in the MLS, or came from the MLS.

take a look at this link :http://soccernet.espn.go.com/feature?id=324321&cc=5901

it's a breakdown of big American players overseas, and you can see that the majority didn't play in the MLS, although quite a few did. Someone like Altidore is playing for Hull, so if he was on a strong WC side, it might not translate back into a boost for MLS. If anything, it might just continue to make the MLS look like a feeder league.

Oldtimer
08-12-2009, 09:32 AM
I disagree with the notion that MLS has to align the schedule with most of Europe, as long as the league expands the season enough to take FIFA dates into account.

Being "off-season" actually will give us potential to expand overseas, as there will not be the EPL/SPL/Serie A to compete with. To expand like that will require better play, which will require a higher salary cap. That is the trade-off. At some point the MLS owners need to spend more to get more.

ensco
08-12-2009, 09:46 AM
Think about what would happen if by some crazy chance US manages to get to World cup final in 2010? Also if US manages to get another WC? 2018..

I think a lot of things for MLS depend on sucess of the USMNT. Interest in the league might really spike and change many things if USMNT becomes one of the "greats" and that can and most likely will happen.

If I recall correctly, ratings for the USA-Germany quarter final in Korea in 2002 were lower than they were for other quarter final games. There may have been other factors (many of those games were played in the middle of the night here)

Kevvv
08-12-2009, 09:52 AM
and now for some fun....

more truths!



people in the west concourse have no idea how to line up properly
if you can drink one of those large beers before it gets warm, you might have a problem


RM game was worse; at least for TFC games, everyone has stood in the pisser line-up before, and has a general sense of where the line is.

Re the large beer - I don't get why some people buy two of them (for themselves). That's at least 28 oz of warm beer, likely more.


http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_dvM_mgygD1g/SQ41UnD6CFI/AAAAAAAAAvE/FgLJhiYuwUQ/s400/Ass-Backwards-Donkey.jpg


Way too anthropomorphic; didn't need to see that.


that's a good point.

IF there was to be a full scale 'breakdown' of MLSE's assets, Toronto FC would probably be the first thing sold. It's the lowest cost, and has proven to be a solid revenue generator. The leafs would cost a fortune, and the raps would be doomed if they wern't tied to the leafs. The other assets would be bundled together somehow. GolTV/LeafsTV/RapsTV is an entity on it's own, and could be sold to any major cable broadcaster.

As it stands now, the ROI (return on investment) of TFC is too good to give up.

I wonder if Leafs and Raps TV make much money at all; to me, they belong with the franchise, not bundled separately. Maybe TSN or SN would be interested in them, but their primary value is their ability to provide content (games, and access to the team) better than the alternatives.




Toronto loves a winning team. Supporters will stand behind a losing team, but the average ticket buyer will not.

I'd say we need a competitive team - in playoff contention, with a shot at success. Baseball being what it is, you can already be out of the playoffs in July. The Leafs are a special case, because tickets are hard to come by (or are believed to be), and becuase this is the biggest hockey market anywhere.


Probably true. But it depends on the price. We need an Abramovich. I nominate Alex Shnaider.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alex_Shnaider

Realistically, how could we benefit by having a rich owner? The cap remains the same, maybe we get a DP faster (no guarantee), maybe we get a swanky stadium faster (no guarantee that it's at the Ex), maybe he gets bored after a few years, so blows his fortune on commercial property investments that collapse. MLSE is fine by me.

Beach_Red
08-12-2009, 09:59 AM
You've missed out an important step in the analysis though - the EPL isn't a powerhouse league because England has the most people with the most money. The money comes from overseas markets siging up for the tv rights, which is then used to get in some of the best overseas players and the circle goes on.

So North America having "the most people with the most money" is actually kind of irrelevant, because it cannot compete with the vast swathes of Asia, Africa and Europe that are signing up for tv rights to leagues like the EPL and La Liga.

Besides which, all those American people are already embedded in their own sports and are not about to make a dramatic switch, en masse, to soccer, which they distrust and view as a threat to the traditional American sports. So again, having "the most people" is not a big factor.

As for the traditions thing, the only way to tap into the foreign markets and soak up some of the tv money being thrown at leagues like the EPL is to throw off the American shackles and embrace the footballing traditions of Europe. Without that, MLS will never seriously crack the world tv rights market and as a result will never start pulling in the world's top players.

And another thing - to get the top players here, MLS has to get seriously in step with Europe in terms of when its season starts and ends, not arranging match weeks on FIFA dates, etc. Otherwise top players will stay away for fear of hurting their international careers. It wouldn't hurt to schedule matches at times that are convenient for international viewing either, if and when the league starts to attract top players from overseas, so the markets in asia etc can see the players they idolise.

But will the US populace embrace all of these changes? I seriously doubt it, and Garber and the league don't have the balls or the intention of giving America the finger and getting the league in line with the rest of the world. That's fair enough, it's an American product and the bottom line is without the crowds in the stadia there is no league, and nothing to grow into a "top 5 in the world" product.

So that's the Catch .22 in all of this - in order to survive MLS has to cater to the US market. In order to seriously grow (and by that I mean in international terms, not just within North American borders) it has to screw the US market and pander to European traditions and Asian tv markets. But then what happens to the US market? Will it stay loyal?

I think MLS is what it is and, subject to a bit more domestic growth which supports a 20 team league with some teams getting pretty shitty attendance figures, it's not going to blossom much beyond what it is now. The US market will never buy into soccer the way it does the Superbowl and the World Series and the international markets will never take the league seriously while it remains such a clearly American product, nor will the world's top players.

So, Parkdale is right. MLS will never be a world class league (at least within his 25 year definition of "never").


Some very good points.

Of course, it all changes if America produces soccer players the way they produce players in every other sport they care about. Then they will also bring in the best from around the world like they do in baseball, basketball and hockey to supplement their own.

It'll be a tricky change-over, to go from wannabe to powerhouse, but it can be done.

Never say never because all that stands in America's was is attitude and attitudes can change. If high schools start taking soccer as seriously as basketball and football there's really no stoppin them.

In the US only about a dozen states are even remotely interested in hockey and they've managed to world champions anyway. Imagine if all 50 states get interested in soccer?

flatpicker
08-12-2009, 10:01 AM
I disagree with the notion that MLS has to align the schedule with most of Europe, as long as the league expands the season enough to take FIFA dates into account.

Being "off-season" actually will give us potential to expand overseas, as there will not be the EPL/SPL/Serie A to compete with. To expand like that will require better play, which will require a higher salary cap. That is the trade-off. At some point the MLS owners need to spend more to get more.

I agree...

trying to promote MLS outside of North America is no easy task if you have the rest of the world paying attention to more exciting football.

flatpicker
08-12-2009, 10:08 AM
As for the traditions thing, the only way to tap into the foreign markets and soak up some of the tv money being thrown at leagues like the EPL is to throw off the American shackles and embrace the footballing traditions of Europe. Without that, MLS will never seriously crack the world tv rights market and as a result will never start pulling in the world's top players.

And another thing - to get the top players here, MLS has to get seriously in step with Europe in terms of when its season starts and ends, not arranging match weeks on FIFA dates, etc. Otherwise top players will stay away for fear of hurting their international careers. It wouldn't hurt to schedule matches at times that are convenient for international viewing either, if and when the league starts to attract top players from overseas, so the markets in asia etc can see the players they idolise.

But will the US populace embrace all of these changes? I seriously doubt it, and Garber and the league don't have the balls or the intention of giving America the finger and getting the league in line with the rest of the world. That's fair enough, it's an American product and the bottom line is without the crowds in the stadia there is no league, and nothing to grow into a "top 5 in the world" product.


I wonder though how many serious footie fans their are in North America who don't watch MLS because they don't view it as "authentic"?

If MLS were to adjust their product to be more in line with global football, perhaps it would actually attract a larger and more intelligent football audience.
(by "intelligent" I mean footie smarts)

I'm sure there would be many NA sports fans who walk away because it doesn't make sense to them.
But I think there is a much better footie market in this region that is still waiting to be convinced.

Hitcho
08-12-2009, 10:17 AM
I wonder though how many serious footie fans their are in North America who don't watch MLS because they don't view it as "authentic"?

If MLS were to adjust their product to be more in line with global football, perhaps it would actually attract a larger and more intelligent football audience.
(by "intelligent" I mean footie smarts)

I'm sure there would be many NA sports fans who walk away because it doesn't make sense to them.
But I think there is a much better footie market in this region that is still waiting to be convinced.

I hope you are right about that Flats. That, to me, is the only genuine avenue for growth of MLS on the kind of scale being discussed in this thread.

Although you know what? I really don't care. If I want to see top nicker footie I can watch it on Setanta. I just love having a team here we can go and support, and it gets a 20k crowd each week, plays in the summer and lets you drink beer in the stands. Aside from winning the league, howi much better does that really need to get?!

:scarf::scarf::scarf:

Shep
08-12-2009, 10:26 AM
Warm beer, mmmm...

I don't drink BMO's beer as my tongue only accepts the Guinness, but they should create some sort of TFC stylized cup holder to keep them cool.

A beer-can style foam holder that is sized to fit the BMO sippy cups, that can be brought into the stadium into all sections like a seat cushion. Red, TFC crest of course, could be a nice item. And simple to produce.

It would definitely sell better than a fake tattoo arm.

And I agree with you on the chip butties Parkdale, they are a bit of a joke. I haven't had a good chip butty in a few years, but I like mine in a nice bun with some cheese added in there. Abrakebabra makes them that way, I was never a fan of the sliced bread butty.

SilverSamurai
08-12-2009, 10:37 AM
I hope you are right about that Flats. That, to me, is the only genuine avenue for growth of MLS on the kind of scale being discussed in this thread.

Although you know what? I really don't care. If I want to see top nicker footie I can watch it on Setanta. I just love having a team here we can go and support, and it gets a 20k crowd each week, plays in the summer and lets you drink beer in the stands. Aside from winning the league, howi much better does that really need to get?!

:scarf::scarf::scarf:
I'd have to agree with this pretty much, except I'm more of a typical North American fan in that I really don't care about winning the supporters shield. Sure it's nice, but the MLS Cup is what matters to me.

Also have to keep in mind that not everyone watches the Euro leagues. What about the Mexican leagues or the various South American leagues. Even within Europe I'm sure their are differences.

TFC RealDeal RPB
08-12-2009, 05:39 PM
We won the Canadian Cup. :cool:


you call that a cup ? it's out of three team's and we can't even win it clean, so from me that doesn't count

MarioNEE
08-13-2009, 04:08 AM
Running a sports team is a business
and businesses exist to make money. We pay for the right to watch the team -- NOT the right to watch a winning team. There's no guarantee that the team will win, and there's no refund on the tickets. They don't owe us a winning team because we dropped a few hundred bucks on tickets --- BUT they DO owe us quality play because of the support we've shown for the team. There's an unspoken contract between sports teams and their fans/supporters: We'll give it our all if you give it your all. That's all we ask, but that is separate from the business of selling tickets and filling seats. Never in the history of sports has their been a guarantee on the outcome, unless you're watching a fixed match.

There is more to comment on but I'm just going to latch on here, because I’ve wanted a soapbox to speak to this point. Pardon the run on sentences I am overtired.


Are you saying : ticket holders are not owed wins, they are owed a show?

I don’t think you are. You said the team should 'give it [their] all.' That does include doing everything reasonable to win, doesn’t it?

Let me say that people should not complain about every loss, nor feel entitled to a win at any game... Yes of course MLSE should make money of the team, while still trying their damn hardest to win. If that was your point, I'm right there with you.



I always thought the unwritten contract is that the sports team will do everything within reason to win... I mean... once the team admits that winning isn't what their about... well then you might as well be the Generals that follow the Globetrotters around... I mean sure the Pirates may never win the world series, but they don't go out to their fans "oh well, at least we lost big to make it entertaining! Great show eh?"

Once the company appears to have put profits before the product, they've lost their brand... haven't they?

I don't feel I'm entitled to a win every game, or any game. But I do feel entitled to a team that frankly puts winning first. I don't just pay just to watch soccer. If I go an 'all star match' or somesuch sure, that is just about the show. Otherwise I’m there to see the team I identify with compete, at what happens to be soccer.

That's the product actually. A team that is going to do everything they can to win, everything they can to make me proud of them.

Don't get me wrong, some of the greatest moments in sports come in defeats....

Am I on the same page here?




Having said that, I didn't see anything great in our defeat against PR...

I also don’t feel that TFC is doing everything it can to win. That they lose, well that happens. But to me losing is only excusable if we can say we actually gave it our all to win.

As I understood how TFC is run we have Mo, who sole job should be to make us successful on the pitch, then you have PB who's job it is to make money off the team. But it seems one is doing their job at the expense of the other...

Truth be told I think you’re right on about how fickle NA sports fans can be. This is prob true of sports fans everywhere, but I'm not traveled enough to know. It seems then, that the most important long term growth factor for MLSE TFC based profits would be: to ensure that they do everything within their power and budget to turn TFC in a winning team and keep it as such...

Oldtimer
08-13-2009, 05:45 AM
One other thing will never change: complaining on the RPB board. Even if we win the MLS Cup some day, someone will find something to complain about it.

Pookie
08-13-2009, 06:06 AM
Toronto FC will never be owned by someone other than MLSE
MLSE bought into the league and started this franchise - There is no way they will be giving away something that generates a decent profit for them.

Not only that but the agreement to build BMO with public money included the provision that MLSE was to secure a major league soccer team and have that team play at BMO. They signed a 20 year rental agreement with all parties.

Not impossible to break but extremely unlikely.


MLS will never be a 'world class' league
It's just not going to happen. MLS can earn some respect worldwide, but it's always going to be a small team in a small market. The constant comparisons to the EPL, Serie A, La Liga etc are a waste of breath. Just like the CFL will always be a distant second behind the NFL, and the Russian Hockey league will always be behind the NHL...

I wouldn't say never but to be a "top league" it has a number of serious challenges.... one that is rarely mentioned is that it operates during the summer.

This presents a challenge for players who might be interested in coming here in that they generally would be joining a team through the mid-way mark of the season unless they left their current club in the Jan through April period.

Secondly, for those who have talent and enjoy international duty, it makes for one heck of a summer schedule. We aren't talking about guys playing a qualifier in Canada. If you are a top international player you've probably got 7-10 hour flights across multiple time zones in between your MLS games.




Running a sports team is a business

Never in the history of sports has their been a guarantee on the outcome, unless you're watching a fixed match.




I agree and think that the media is doing "sports" a disservice by calling this "entertainment." That word speaks to the use of sports as an event to schmooze.


"Value for my money" isn't a function of piped in music, dancers at center court, the quality of sushi, or having a "winning team."


It's what I get out of going... plain and simple.


Now as to the "fix' component, you can't discount that entirely. Many top leagues have recently had incidents of match fixing. The money is too big and the "influences" surrounding that money are very strong.

Parkdale
08-13-2009, 07:35 AM
One other thing will never change: complaining on the RPB board. Even if we win the MLS Cup some day, someone will find something to complain about it.


remember when we won the voyagers cup and people complained that the trophy presentation at BMO wasn't good enough? That they didn't have enough notice and ended up missing it?

:facepalm:

RedMAN127
08-13-2009, 07:43 AM
^ how does PB get the blame for poor displays on the pitch, lol.

brad
08-13-2009, 07:45 AM
Two quick points.

American's love to win, and football is not a sport they win at consistently on the big stage. That is changing though, the USMNT is getting better and better. When they start competing consistently with the best in the world, there will be a greated acceptance of the sport.

Top teams have more than money, they have history - we don't. There are kids in the streets of Brazil wearing Milan and Madrid jerseys dreaming about playing for them. Not for TFC. It may come one day, but that day is a long way off.

Parkdale
08-13-2009, 08:00 AM
^ how does PB get the blame for poor displays on the pitch, lol.


yeah, I could have written another truth about that one too...


The Front Office has NOTHING do to with the on field product
They work with tickets, customer relations, marketing, scheduling etc...
they have absolutely no say in the tactics, training and management of the team.
That's Mo, Cummins and the training staff's responsibility.

brad
08-13-2009, 08:18 AM
yeah, I could have written another truth about that one too...


The Front Office has NOTHING do to with the on field product
They work with tickets, customer relations, marketing, scheduling etc...
they have absolutely no say in the tactics, training and management of the team.
That's Mo, Cummins and the training staff's responsibility.

Very true, but because they are more readily accessible they are made the scapegoat.

canadian_bhoy
08-13-2009, 08:22 AM
yeah, I could have written another truth about that one too...


The Front Office has NOTHING do to with the on field product
They work with tickets, customer relations, marketing, scheduling etc...
they have absolutely no say in the tactics, training and management of the team.
That's Mo, Cummins and the training staff's responsibility.

Doesn't the FO (Paul B/Tom A) hire the GM (Mo), who in turn hires with coach (with FO input)? Not to mention the contracts for players. So you could say that the FO has a very big influence on what the product on the field looks like. (note, not condemning the FO here, I think Mo should stay and hire Steve Nicol, but it's poppycock to say that they have nothing to do with the on field product).

Soon to be proven truth - parky cannot hold back from getting the last word on a subject ;)

nobodybeatsthewiz
08-13-2009, 08:32 AM
front office has a lot to do with onfield product. ill draw attention to another team i support - the detroit lions. do you think matt millen received flack just for the hell of it? nein.....he, as the head of the front office, drove the onfield product into the turf.

lets not get the pitchforks out persecuting the front office for all the woes, but lets get our naive heads out our asses if we think they having nothing to do with the onfield product.

ill have a grape kool-aid, please.

Parkdale
08-13-2009, 08:39 AM
Doesn't the FO (Paul B/Tom A) hire the GM (Mo), who in turn hires with coach (with FO input)?


Maybe it's just me, but I see the GM (or 'director of soccer' in our case) as a separate category from the FO. MoJo is responsible for everything on the field, Paul/Ceasar are responsible for everything around the field. Tom A is the representative of the 'owner' (MLSE in our case) which would make him part of 'ownership' which does dictate to both the FO and the GM.

I really don't think Paul B had any say in the hiring of Mo. That's the ownership's decision, and the FO works with it.


mmmm... grape

Parkdale
08-13-2009, 08:43 AM
lets not get the pitchforks out persecuting the front office for all the woes, but lets get our naive heads out our asses if we think they having nothing to do with the onfield product.


there is an influence, in an indirect way.

FO schedules the friendlies, which can leave players tired/injured when league play resumes. That would be a solid example of FO having an impact on the on-field product, but beyond that, it's hard to say. Sure the basic things like the training room equipment would fall under the FO category, but to say that a team lost because of the quality of their treadmills is a stretch.

canadian_bhoy
08-13-2009, 09:43 AM
I'm not going to get roped into a long debate over this, but I will respond to this (and then I'll be done and you can have the last word)...(thus saving 6 pages)

There are a lot of false assumptions that you're making in your posts. I think you've underrated the decision making ability that Paul has, though I cannot speak for him, I'm sure that he has at least a say in player contract decisions (if not signing authority) and was obviously involved with the hiring of Mo (which is good). Also, I don't see how TA is a rep of the 'owner'. He's management (as per TFC's website), Paul's boss and COO of the company. He is higher up, but certainly isn't part of the board of directors or the ownership. That'd be like saying Paul is in a separate category from Cesar because Paul is a director. Management is management and they are ultimately responsible for both the off field operations and on the field product.

Their influence goes well beyond buying gym equipment and scheduling friendlies. Like any company, the various departments are given a certain level of autonomy in their area of expertise, but like any company, their is a chain of command and accountability measures that go through the FO and up to the top. Do you really think that the management and FO (or any management in any company) would just hand over the keys and say "alright guys, my ass is on the line if you F up...but just do whatever you want"? No chance.



Maybe it's just me, but I see the GM (or 'director of soccer' in our case) as a separate category from the FO. MoJo is responsible for everything on the field, Paul/Ceasar are responsible for everything around the field. Tom A is the representative of the 'owner' (MLSE in our case) which would make him part of 'ownership' which does dictate to both the FO and the GM.

I really don't think Paul B had any say in the hiring of Mo. That's the ownership's decision, and the FO works with it.


mmmm... grape


there is an influence, in an indirect way.

FO schedules the friendlies, which can leave players tired/injured when league play resumes. That would be a solid example of FO having an impact on the on-field product, but beyond that, it's hard to say. Sure the basic things like the training room equipment would fall under the FO category, but to say that a team lost because of the quality of their treadmills is a stretch.

Hitcho
08-13-2009, 09:55 AM
There is a link between the very top and the hands on coaching staff at all football clubs. When things are going a bit wrong, fans blame the players and then the coach. When things are going very wrong and the entire club needs an overhaul, fans blame the board. Where exactly fans draw the line varies i guess, depends on the club and the structures it has in place. MLS is different to most other leagues with the ownership/franchise/GM set up it has, which muddies things further of course.

Bottom line is there si no clear cut answer to the Mike/Parky mini debate, at least not in my opinion. :D

Mark in Ottawa
08-13-2009, 09:57 AM
One thing that will never change?

The ongoing discussion on whether professional sports are simply entertainment or more than that!

I guess it depends on whether you are a true fan or not.
Is being a sports fan like being a fan of... your favorite rock band?

Your sports team messes up and loses games... your rock band messes up and puts on a bad performance/produces a bad set of songs...

I think my head is starting to hurt :(.
Can I blame it on Mr. Parkdale? :rolleyes:

ilikemusic
08-13-2009, 10:18 AM
I will never be a fan of a team other than TFC.

Well, that may not be entirely true. Should I move to London or something someday, I will probably adopt a club over there, but they will never take the place of TFC. Im a Toronto boy so TFC, the Leafs, Jays, Raps, theyre my teams, and that will never change. Ive always said the only good reason to be a fan of any sports team is proximity and heritage. Nothing annoys me more than a guy born and raised in Toronto with no heritage anywhere else who is a New Jersey Devils fan, or a Man U fan, or a Yankee fan. Thats nothing more than glory hunting.

Parkdale
08-13-2009, 10:23 AM
Bottom line is there si no clear cut answer to the Mike/Parky mini debate, at least not in my opinion. :D

exactly. that's the point of debate - it opens more questions.




Nothing annoys me more than a guy born and raised in Toronto with no heritage anywhere else who is a New Jersey Devils fan, or a Man U fan, or a Yankee fan. Thats nothing more than glory hunting.

I can't say that I agree, even though at times, I do.

One of my buddies growing up was a really good hockey goalie.
He played on a bunch of rep teams and really loved that position.
His absolute favorite goalie was Martin Brodeaur, who played for
15 years on the Devils and helped them win 3 Stanley Cups.

Is it wrong that his favorite team was NJ because his all-time favorite player
(and I guess you could say his 'goalie hero') was on that team?

I wouldn't call that glory hunting at all.

ilikemusic
08-13-2009, 11:37 AM
I can't say that I agree, even though at times, I do.

One of my buddies growing up was a really good hockey goalie.
He played on a bunch of rep teams and really loved that position.
His absolute favorite goalie was Martin Brodeaur, who played for
15 years on the Devils and helped them win 3 Stanley Cups.

Is it wrong that his favorite team was NJ because his all-time favorite player
(and I guess you could say his 'goalie hero') was on that team?

I wouldn't call that glory hunting at all.

Ya, there are debatable cases and exceptions to the rule.

It still annoys me though.

What was wrong with Felix Potvin, Alan Bester or Rick Wamsley? ;)

I dunno, its still just real easy to say 'He's my favourite player so theyre my favourite team'.

I've always looked up to Joe Sakic, he was my favourite player since I was a little kid. I was happy to see him win the Cup and when the Avs won, I was happy for Joe, but that never made the Avs 'my team'.

To each their own, and I dont mean to have a go at anyone, I just never felt like I could really connect with a team that didnt have 'Toronto' in its name. I could have a soft spot for favourite players, but that never made their team 'mine'. The Avs (and their glory) belong to the people of Colorado, same goes for Jersey. Its just the way i've always felt.

And it's the reason why after years of following football overseas I havent adopted a team as my own. And its not that I dont want to, its that im not able to.

Parkdale
08-13-2009, 11:52 AM
The Avs (and their glory) belong to the people of Colorado, same goes for Jersey. Its just the way i've always felt.


and the people of Quebec. The Avs used to be the Nordiques, and have often had the highest number of French Canadian players in the league.


I do hear where you're coming from though, and I'm pretty much the same way. If it doesn't say 'Toronto' in the name, then it's not really my team. Although I do have favorites in other leagues (Charleston in the USL, L'OM in Ligue 1). I don't think it's such a thing when the other team never competes against the home team.

ilikemusic
08-13-2009, 11:55 AM
Dont go bringing up the Nordiques now. :cryin:

http://www.nordiquesdequebec.com/images/nordiques.jpg

:cryin:

Phil
08-13-2009, 12:19 PM
I will never be a fan of a team other than TFC.

Well, that may not be entirely true. Should I move to London or something someday, I will probably adopt a club over there, but they will never take the place of TFC. Im a Toronto boy so TFC, the Leafs, Jays, Raps, theyre my teams, and that will never change. Ive always said the only good reason to be a fan of any sports team is proximity and heritage. Nothing annoys me more than a guy born and raised in Toronto with no heritage anywhere else who is a New Jersey Devils fan, or a Man U fan, or a Yankee fan. Thats nothing more than glory hunting.

I think going forward we can expect people who are new to soccer become TFC fans out of the gate because they are here now.

Previous to that, you can't fault people for developing loyalties to out of market soccer clubs. Face it, it was challenging at times for people to follow the sport compared to how much media attention others get.

JonO
08-13-2009, 12:25 PM
And it's the reason why after years of following football overseas I havent adopted a team as my own. And its not that I dont want to, its that im not able to.
I hear what you are saying. I am a Man Utd fan (and have been for going on almost 30 years now). I can't watch sports and not pick a team. And, since I had few options (not many different teams on TV at the time) I picked the team I enjoyed watching the most. While it's been a great 30 years, I don't think I'll ever be as passionate in my support for Utd as others who actually have ties to the region/team.

Hitcho
08-13-2009, 12:28 PM
I hear what you are saying. I am a Man Utd fan (and have been for going on almost 30 years now). I can't watch sports and not pick a team. And, since I had few options (not many different teams on TV at the time) I picked the team I enjoyed watching the most. While it's been a great 30 years, I don't think I'll ever be as passionate in my support for Utd as others who actually have ties to the region/team.

Another plastic manc! :D:D:D

Here's another universal truth for parky's post: the elephant in JonO's avatar will never stop jumping. :hump:

Parkdale
08-13-2009, 12:35 PM
^ we would if he could.

side note: the elephant is the only animal that can't jump.

ExiledRed
08-13-2009, 01:07 PM
^ we would if he could.

side note: the elephant is the only animal that can't jump.

wrong


http://lmgtfy.com/?q=animals+that+cant+jump