Take a look in the mirror

[koryo]

*** Important: not judging anyone, just curious ***

Okay, I'm seeing a lot of aggro over the fact that me likely won't make the playoffs this year.

It seems as though a certain number of people thought that, once we signed Dero and Serioux, we'd get there no problem - that somehow we became world beaters.

This was never going to be the case, as there's plenty that still needs doing with this team. So I'm curious as to why the expectation was set.

Is it that because we're in our third year that we're entitled to make the playoffs?

I've been watching the game since 1979 and have never really seen a team go from shit to the top in three years.

[Shakes McQueen]

Cue 10,000 replies about Seattle, Chicago winning the league their first year, and the TFC management in 3...2...1...

- Scott

[Shakes McQueen]

And what is this "aggro"? Former MMO player, are you? :D

- Scott

[James Oliphant]

pbzMsIcp6fI

[H Bomb]

*** Important: not judging anyone, just curious ***

Okay, I'm seeing a lot of aggro over the fact that me likely won't make the playoffs this year.



Damnit dude, make sure you get in next year though, or the board will explode.


Seriously though, you're right. It's Truman show complex...people thinking that they/we have some sort of significance in the greater world

[Shakes McQueen]

I think we should make the playoffs this year, because we were given enough breaks, and made enough good signings, that it was to be expected. Our draft choices turned out to be pure gold, we signed DeRo and Serioux, etc.

It's just the people who use phrases like we "deserve" the playoffs, or talking about how the supporters are "owed" a better team, that annoys the shit out of me. And they literally mean "we", as in the SUPPORTERS. Like, because we do such a great job cheering for our teams, we are entitled to a better squad, haha.

In a capped league, you can never know for absolute sure what kind of team you have until the games start to be played. Folks like Ives Galarcep thought we had a "paper tiger" of a team at the beginning of this season, and we've only added more good players since that time. It's also clear some of our guys aren't playing up to their potential, others aren't working together as well as we'd like, and the coaching might jnot be as good as we'd like. And it's fine to pressure for changes as fans.

But talking about "entitlement" because of the love we show our club, is ridiculous.

- Scott

[ilikemusic]

I've been watching the game since 1979 and have never really seen a team go from shit to the top in three years.

For how many of those years have you watched MLS?

MLS is nothing like any other league in the world.

The Galaxy were shit for the last two years, and now theyre second in the west.

New York went to the final last year, and are on pace to set a league record for futility.

This league cant be compared to other football leagues. The salary gimped structure makes it completely different.

[AL-MO]

I thought making the playoffs was a realistic goal this year. I didn't expect them to make it very far, but just make the party.

I will be disappointed if they don't make it, or if at minimum have a good drive for them.

As for entitlement....I don't think I am entitled to anything. But with the amount of time and money we (RPB) have spent on 'supporting' the team I think it heightens your expectations of them.

[Roogsy]

I suppose it was the players, coaches and management themselves saying that playoffs were a must this year that fooled us into thinking it was a reasonable goal... :rolleyes:

I suppose thinking 8th place out of 13 is too much to ask.

I suppose we have all learned to accept mediocrity because living in Toronto, that's all our sports teams give us.

I suppose having standards is too much to ask. Thank god that's not how I run my life...dear lord.

[Shakes McQueen]

I thought making the playoffs was a realistic goal this year. I didn't expect them to make it very far, but just make the party.

I will be disappointed if they don't make it, or if at minimum have a good drive for them.

As for entitlement....I don't think I am entitled to anything. But with the amount of time and money we (RPB) have spent on 'supporting' the team I think it heightens your expectations of them.

This essentially reflects my opinion. I will be immensely disappointed if we don't make the playoffs this season, because I think we have a good enouch club to do it. They just aren't playing to their full potential, and I think the tactics and coaching could be better.

I never expected us to advance beyond that. It would be all gravy from there.

At the end of the day, as long as we continue to get better every season, I will still feel alright about things for the most part. But with the sheer number of mid-level football players in the world, you shouldn't have to wait too long for a good team, if the management is doing it's job.

- Scott

[Whoop]

Pursuit of excellance.

Its about setting goals and standards.

Like some have said, playoffs should be one of the goals this season and if it`s not attained, then someone should be held accountable.

In my opinion, it`s Mo.

It`s not about entitlement, but a progression of improvement.

[Shakes McQueen]

I suppose it was the players, coaches and management themselves saying that playoffs were a must this year that fooled us into thinking it was a reasonable goal... :rolleyes:

I suppose thinking 8th place out of 13 is too much to ask.

I suppose we have all learned to accept mediocrity because living in Toronto, that's all our sports teams give us.

I suppose having standards is too much to ask. Thank god that's not how I run my life...dear lord.

I don't think his argument was ever that having standards is wrong. I think his argument is that some people have set their standards too high - whether you agree with that, is another thing.

- Scott

[AL-MO]

I suppose it was the players, coaches and management themselves saying that playoffs were a must this year that fooled us into thinking it was a reasonable goal... :rolleyes:

I suppose thinking 8th place out of 13 is too much to ask.

I suppose we have all learned to accept mediocrity because living in Toronto, that's all our sports teams give us.

I suppose having standards is too much to ask. Thank god that's not how I run my life...dear lord.

When statements are made, expectations are increased no doubt.

[905shmick]

TFC can't even beat USL teams. How are they going to make it to the playoffs in MLS?

[Roogsy]

The problem with this argument Scott is that people are equating supporters expecting playoffs as being the same as winning the cup or the supporter's shield. Statements like "shit to top in 3 years" paints a different picture than the actual expectations of people.

I live and work in a world where results and accomplishments are the only thing that matter at the end of the day. It isn't what a nice guy you are, it isn't how many people you make feel good about themselves....it's about results. It's about whether you make the company money. Period. End of story.

Sports is the same. Managers don't get paid because they get along great with the players. They don't have jobs because they are a fan favourite. They get paid based on wins and losses. Sports is true competition. It's about results. Results in games and results in the standings. It's probably the purest system of competition in the business world.

So how do we measure TFC's progress if we wind up with roughly the same points as last year? If we wind up in 9th,10th or 11th place...if we go into the off-season with the same problems as last year? No solid goal-scoring. A leaky defence. Late game collapses. Where then do we look to the standard, measure or gauge that shows that things have indeed improved from last year?

Because if there is no defineable, measurable way of explaining how the team is better than last year, should there not be accountability? Should we be happy?

Honestly, I don't understand complacency. While I certainly wasn't one of the first people to start complaining about Mo, MLSE or any of the other long-time gripes...I am certainly beginning to come around to understand the frustration of looking around you and seeing people accept mediocrity with a smile. In Toronto, long have we been willing to bend over, take it up the arse dry while handing over our hard-earned paycheques. And from what I am seeing on this board, there will never be any real pressure on the organization to improve because we will forever be willing to accept excuses.

One of the things I promised myself was that I was not going to take on another team like the Leafs. I could never bring myself to love another hockey team but I also am not stupid enough to intentionally choose to duplicate the heartache with another team. That's why I am so passionate about keeping pressure on the Front Office. The only way to ever excel is to demand excellence. Excellence doesn't come without effort and effort does not come naturally, it comes out of a sense of urgency, willpower and desire. Everybody says they "like to win" but winning only happens when it goes beyond "liking" the feeling and it becomes a purpose, a reason for existence. Right now, that reason for existence isn't exuding from this team yet and unless they feel the pressure, it's possible it never will.

[king dave]

Look you fucks!
It's Monday night and I'm into the sauce as usual.
But you guys are all on the same page here. And that is the FRUSTRATION page.
You are all young and used to getting things with a click of the fucking mouse.
Football isn't a computer douchebags.
TFC may not make the playoffs this year or even next year. And I am as fucking pissed as all of you are!
But this constant fucking whining is useless and tiring.
Go build a playground for some kids, help out at a local soup kitchen but for Christ sakes;
IT IS FOOTBALL AND IN THE WORDS OF TODEVILS,
"It is what it is".
KD.

[James Oliphant]

King Dave wins.

[905shmick]

King Dave wins.

What does he win? A free trip to an AA meet?

[AL-MO]

King Dave wins.

Well at least 50% of the time. :p

[Whoop]

Yeah, KD is right in the end. LOL

[RedMAN127]

This essentially reflects my opinion. I will be immensely disappointed if we don't make the playoffs this season, because I think we have a good enouch club to do it. They just aren't playing to their full potential, and I think the tactics and coaching could be better.


No, KD loses ... "it is what it is" that's a nice way of saying meh, who gives a fuck.

Shakes, wins ... why haven't we been able to capitalise on significant player improvements this year?

[ensco]

king dave, I'd also point that we are where we are.

It's the lack of improvement that's vexing. I believe we were better in June 2007 than we are now.

[Nomad]

I don't get the mirror analogy. :noidea:

Honestly, this topic has been beaten to death. If you don't see it another way by now then nothing anyone says is going to make you change it (even despite the goal of playoffs being said by players, coaching and management).

All i know is, thank God none of you are in my group. :D

[Shakes McQueen]

Shakes, wins ... why haven't we been able to capitalise on significant player improvements this year?

Poor coaching, tactics, and inconsistent performances from otherwise good players.

- Scott

[king dave]

I don't get the mirror analogy. :noidea:

Honestly, this topic has been beaten to death. If you don't see it another way by now then nothing anyone says is going to make you change it (even despite the goal of playoffs being said by players, coaching and management).

All i know is, thank God none of you are in my group. :D
Guess where I'm standing Saturday douche:D?
KD.

[king dave]

I don't get the mirror analogy. :noidea:

Honestly, this topic has been beaten to death.


Yup!
KD.

[andyc]

To me the biggest concern is that we probably have the biggest allocation amount possible this year. We sucked last year and we have the funds from the Edu sale that we could partially use against the salary cap.

In the off season there was a belief that we had $1m in cap allocation to spend this year. We signed a bunch of expensive players and gave others raises... Dero, Vitti, Barrett, plus I'm sure that Gerba isn't cheap.

Hopefully we won't be as bad this year as last so we'll get less allocation. Also not sure we can sell anyone this off season - Wynne looks to have blown his chances (unless the Ronaldo speed by counts) and I think it's too soon for Frei...

Our Generation Adidas players will likely graduate and we have almost no draft picks next year. To top it all I'm sure a bunch of our added international slots will expire this year.

I really don't want to be Mr F*cking Grumpy but this year we had the perfect storm of salary allocation and if the cap isn't raised significantly next year, we become will have to become a selling team this off season...

:leaving:

[Roogsy]

^ Oh shit...I am going to bed. :eek:

[Beach_Red]

^ Do you think any of our young players will be ready to step up next year or will we have to go out and get a bunch of new guys?

[Shakes McQueen]

To me the biggest concern is that we probably have the biggest allocation amount possible this year. We sucked last year and we have the funds from the Edu sale that we could partially use against the salary cap.

In the off season there was a belief that we had $1m in cap allocation to spend this year. We signed a bunch of expensive players and gave others raises... Dero, Vitti, Barrett, plus I'm sure that Gerba isn't cheap.

Hopefully we won't be as bad this year as last so we'll get less allocation. Also not sure we can sell anyone this off season - Wynne looks to have blown his chances (unless the Ronaldo speed by counts) and I think it's too soon for Frei...

Our Generation Adidas players will likely graduate and we have almost no draft picks next year. To top it all I'm sure a bunch of our added international slots will expire this year.

I really don't want to be Mr F*cking Grumpy but this year we had the perfect storm of salary allocation and if the cap isn't raised significantly next year, we become will have to become a selling team this off season...

:leaving:

The cap will go up. Probably significantly, due to the growth of league revenue since the last CBA. I'm not worried about that scenario, and I'm guessing Mo was betting on it too.

- Scott

[ua-kozak_TFC]

*** Important: not judging anyone, just curious ***

Okay, I'm seeing a lot of aggro over the fact that me likely won't make the playoffs this year.

It seems as though a certain number of people thought that, once we signed Dero and Serioux, we'd get there no problem - that somehow we became world beaters.

This was never going to be the case, as there's plenty that still needs doing with this team. So I'm curious as to why the expectation was set.

Is it that because we're in our third year that we're entitled to make the playoffs?

I've been watching the game since 1979 and have never really seen a team go from shit to the top in three years.
NO offence... But i think if you followed the situation closer you would know why the playoffs are expected this year...
Because Mo said so...as he did last year as well...
Not sure why this comes to you as such big achievement... this is NOT like any other Playoff race in North America. Where there are 30 teams fighting for 8 spots....

There are 8 spots and 15 teams... SO the odds are better than flipping a coin... lol
But seriously it will only get harder to make the playoffs with more teams more competition and the playoff spots will still be the same.

Playoff spot is something that is a REASONABLE EXPECTATION at this stage of our franchice...

[ua-kozak_TFC]

The problem with this argument Scott is that people are equating supporters expecting playoffs as being the same as winning the cup or the supporter's shield. Statements like "shit to top in 3 years" paints a different picture than the actual expectations of people.

I live and work in a world where results and accomplishments are the only thing that matter at the end of the day. It isn't what a nice guy you are, it isn't how many people you make feel good about themselves....it's about results. It's about whether you make the company money. Period. End of story.

Sports is the same. Managers don't get paid because they get along great with the players. They don't have jobs because they are a fan favourite. They get paid based on wins and losses. Sports is true competition. It's about results. Results in games and results in the standings. It's probably the purest system of competition in the business world.

So how do we measure TFC's progress if we wind up with roughly the same points as last year? If we wind up in 9th,10th or 11th place...if we go into the off-season with the same problems as last year? No solid goal-scoring. A leaky defence. Late game collapses. Where then do we look to the standard, measure or gauge that shows that things have indeed improved from last year?

Because if there is no defineable, measurable way of explaining how the team is better than last year, should there not be accountability? Should we be happy?

Honestly, I don't understand complacency. While I certainly wasn't one of the first people to start complaining about Mo, MLSE or any of the other long-time gripes...I am certainly beginning to come around to understand the frustration of looking around you and seeing people accept mediocrity with a smile. In Toronto, long have we been willing to bend over, take it up the arse dry while handing over our hard-earned paycheques. And from what I am seeing on this board, there will never be any real pressure on the organization to improve because we will forever be willing to accept excuses.

One of the things I promised myself was that I was not going to take on another team like the Leafs. I could never bring myself to love another hockey team but I also am not stupid enough to intentionally choose to duplicate the heartache with another team. That's why I am so passionate about keeping pressure on the Front Office. The only way to ever excel is to demand excellence. Excellence doesn't come without effort and effort does not come naturally, it comes out of a sense of urgency, willpower and desire. Everybody says they "like to win" but winning only happens when it goes beyond "liking" the feeling and it becomes a purpose, a reason for existence. Right now, that reason for existence isn't exuding from this team yet and unless they feel the pressure, it's possible it never will.
WOW very well put man very well put.... GReat post...

[andyc]

The cap will go up. Probably significantly, due to the growth of league revenue since the last CBA. I'm not worried about that scenario, and I'm guessing Mo was betting on it too.

- Scott

This is a big f*cking gamble given the economy... I hope it happens but remember we'll still be at a disadvantage since other clubs will have cap space to use up to catch us.

As was mentioned, we do have the kids coming through but it means we're cutting some of our senior every day guys...

[neuf]

I've been watching the game since 1979 and have never really seen a team go from shit to the top in three years.

Hoffenheim's made some pretty decent progress in the last 3 seasons.

2006–07 Regionalliga Süd 2nd ↑
2007–08 2. Bundesliga (II) 2nd ↑
2008–09 Bundesliga (I) 7th

[Super]

In this league pretty much all teams are able to make the play-offs - once they've matured into their 3rd year. We've got a good enough team, and it may come down to a point or two. I think we'll do it - and I have a feeling that if we do make the play-offs it will be awesome drama that will become legendary. It's just that close right now. I'm excited as fuck for the upcoming games.

But yeah, the MLS is not like any other league in the world. Half the teams make the play-offs. It's not that massive of a goal to finish top half in a league where everyone has the same amount of cash.

And honestly: I don't think it's wierd that supporters, who tend to be crazed about their team to begin with, are going to be upset, angry, disappointed, etc. when their teams don't finish anywhere near where they should be - and certainly on paper our team should be in the play-offs. On paper our team should be in the CCL as well.

I'd be worried if we all just shrugged and went: it's only a game.

[andyc]

I've been watching the game since 1979 and have never really seen a team go from shit to the top in three years.

I just thought of this... Not quite top in 3 years but certainly shit!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watford_F.C.#The_Graham_Taylor_era_.281977.E2.80.9 31987.29

The Graham Taylor era (1977–1987)

When 32-year-old Graham Taylor was named as Watford's new manager at the start of the 1976-77 season (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1976-77_in_English_football), the club had just been purchased by world famous pop star Elton John (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elton_John) (a lifelong fan of the club) and were an unremarkable Fourth Division side.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watford_F.C.#cite_note-bbctaylor-6) In 1977 the greyhound track that encircled the pitch was removed as it was seen to lower the clubs professional reputation by the manager Graham Taylor.[5] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watford_F.C.#cite_note-Coan-4) Thanks to the efforts of chairman, manager and playing staff, Watford had reached the First Division by the start of the 1982–83 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1982-83_in_English_football) season.[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watford_F.C.#cite_note-bbctaylor-6) Players like John Barnes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Barnes_%28football_player%29), Ross Jenkins (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ross_Jenkins) and Luther Blissett (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther_Blissett_%28footballer%29) were some of the most respected players in the English game during the 1980s. Watford finished their first top flight season as runners-up behind champions Liverpool (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liverpool_F.C.). The club competed in the UEFA cup the following season and an FA Cup final (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FA_Cup_Final) appearance followed in 1984 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FA_Cup_Final_1984), although Watford lost to Everton (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Everton_F.C.).[2] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watford_F.C.#cite_note-fa1984cupfinal-1) After guiding Watford to a ninth-place finish in 1986-87 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986-87_in_English_football), Taylor was lured away to Aston Villa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aston_Villa_F.C.).[7] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watford_F.C.#cite_note-bbctaylor-6)

[Roogsy]

This is a big f*cking gamble given the economy... I hope it happens but remember we'll still be at a disadvantage since other clubs will have cap space to use up to catch us.

As was mentioned, we do have the kids coming through but it means we're cutting some of our senior every day guys...

The players have indicated they are bearing down for a fight in the CBA negotiations. They want a bigger piece of the pie and I am sure the league will fight them the whole way down. There is even a chance of a player's strike, as remote as it is, it's there.

Whatever the increase in the cap, the existing contracts will eat up some of that as I am sure they will get a boost to their existing contracts (the reverse of what happened to the NHL when the cap came into existance). What I am hoping for in addition to a larger cap, is also a larger roster size. 18 players is simply not enough to weather a season.

[andyc]

The players have indicated they are bearing down for a fight. They want a bigger piece of the pie and I am sure the league will fight them the whole way down. There is even a chance of a player's strike, as remote as it is, it's there.

Whatever the increase in the cap, the existing contracts will eat up some of that as I am sure they will get a boost to their existing contracts (the reverse of what happened to the NHL when the cap came into existance). What I am hoping for in addition to a larger cap, is also a larger roster size. 18 players is simply not enough to weather a season.

I really don't blame the players for digging in and I hope that they are successful. If this turns into a strike then it could get ugly. Maybe we'll have time to lay down grass in the spring after all...

[ensco]

^Kaiserslautern had a similar run to Hoffenheim's, in the late 90s. They actually won the Bundesliga the year they were promoted. Ballack made his reputation as a 19 year old that year. Otto Rehhagel was the manager.

Ever read The Miracle of Castel di Sangro?

Guingamp won the Coupe de France last year, they play in Ligue 2.

Closer to home, what about the run of the Islanders last year in the CCL?

It happens pretty regularly. Not saying it's likely.

[Roogsy]

And I am guessing most examples found are in leagues that have at least 18 teams if not 20, making runs into promotion and up the league ladder even more prominent and impressive.

But is wanting to move from 13th to 12th to 8th really that unreachable that we are talking about those of us who expect it as being unreasonable??? :noidea:

Is 11th a more reasonable expectation just to keep the trend and 9th or 10th should be considered a massive success? Wow...

By that rationale, we should see the playoffs in our 6th year! Yeehaw!

[Super]

Mo, Cummins and the players themselves said that the number one goal of this season was to make the play-offs.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

*** Important: not judging anyone, just curious ***

Okay, I'm seeing a lot of aggro over the fact that me likely won't make the playoffs this year.

It seems as though a certain number of people thought that, once we signed Dero and Serioux, we'd get there no problem - that somehow we became world beaters.

This was never going to be the case, as there's plenty that still needs doing with this team. So I'm curious as to why the expectation was set.

Is it that because we're in our third year that we're entitled to make the playoffs?

I've been watching the game since 1979 and have never really seen a team go from shit to the top in three years.


great article...all i said from the start of the season is that a .500 record would a great improvement for the club and still could be Serioux was a great pick up. but we need more then him. Fans In Toronto no matter what are disliked across the country for demanding things that are not practical...Leaf fans demand the Cup..its gods team and all that other BS that surrounds that team...Jays , Raptors same thing, but people are starting to realize the Jays just cant compete for anything but 3rd place
in the AL east. TFC needs time, more the 3 seasons, likely about 5 before being true contenders, some of the pieces are there, Frei, Attakora, Cronin, Wynne...but we need more. With the salary cap its hard to bring it players left and right, the DP would not have helped us this season unless
he was a defender. No team anywhere in entitled to the playoffs, it must be earned over time with good drafting ( which Mo has done well) trades, which hes about 50/50 on. This will be a really good team in two years,
in which time we should see, grass at BMO, which will lead to better players coming in and an overall improvement in the teams success.

[Cashcleaner]

Cue 10,000 replies about Seattle, Chicago winning the league their first year, and the TFC management in 3...2...1...

- Scott

But why can't we use those as legitimate examples?

Look, we all know each team is different and there are so many variables involved with how clubs are performing, but here's the thing - I know I keep saying it, but I'm going to keep raising the point until I'm blue in the face:

We are the second highest-grossing club in the league. Second place behind the LA Galaxy. Forbes valued us at $44 million dollars last year! We're also amongst the league leaders for merchandise sales.


Forbes Financial -
TORONTO FC
Owner: Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment (MLSE)
Stadium: BMO Field
Value: $44 million
Revenue: $17 million
Operating Income: $2.1 million

Hailed by the commissioner as a model team, Toronto FC sold out every game in its inaugural season. The average spectator spent $4.03 on souvenirs a game--that’s a higher rate than MLSE's flagship sports property: hockey’s Maple Leafs

There's no way around the fact that Toronto FC is making MLSE a metric assload of money. TFC is a virtual cash cow in so many respects! And yet despite all the cash the team is brining in, we're not looking in all that great of shape toward the end of this season. We're out of CONCACAF and the chances of making the playoffs are "iffy" to use a completely scientific term.

Look, I don't think I demand all that much. I just want a team that can compete and entertain me. But I really have to stand up and ask ask some questions as to how it is we've gotten into this position.

[Whoop]

Bah... I`m demanding MLS Cup, Supporters Shield, CONCACAF CL Champions, World Club Cup Championship, all of it.

It`s about demanding results and expectations.

You fuck up on the pitch, you`re accountable, you sit and if someone else does a better job than too bad.
It`s about demanding the best in the coaches, trainers, support staff, etc.

And I`m speaking in relative terms.

I mean we, as supporters, should be able to demand that our team has the best coaches, the best trainers, the best support staff, the best training facilities in the MLS. These things aren`t governed by a salary cap.

From there it`s being a consistent winner in the league. Once the team establishes itself as a consistent winner, then it could look to expand on the bigger picture.

Qualifying... easily for the group stages of the CONCACAF CL. Competing with some decent international clubs.

Yes, stability in the front office and in the coaching staff is important, but since MLS rules make it difficult to turn over the players... someone has to be held accountable.

I think making the playoffs this year, even as a 7th or 8th place team is a reasonable expectation and goal. I wasn`t expecting a MLS Championship this year.

God forbid, what happens if we finish 13th overall, is everything still okay?

Hell, I see it in kids everyday. If you don`t put reasonable expectations or goals - something to strive for - they`ll stagnant.

Goes back to my first point.... the PURSUIT OF EXCELLENCE.

Excellence is how you want to define it... but I think most people understand what it means.

Problem in Toronto is the majority of the team it`s the pursuit of maximizing profit regardless of the results.

[TFC USA]

You can't possibly compare two totally fucking different sports to make an argument mighty. The Jays will always be stuck with the Red Sox, Yankees, and now even the Rays in the mix.

The MLS is all about parity. Any team can be good one year and suck the next. Expansion teams can always be in the playoff hunt or in Seattle's case be (right now) in good position to actually make it.

"With the salary cap its hard to bring it players left and right"

But you say that as if we're the only team in the league dealing with this problem. It's all in how you properly invest in good players.

Don't buy the 5 year plan. This is the MLS, not the MLB, or NBA, or NFL.


Playoffs should be realistic this year.

[Whoop]

Those who know my background.

I`ve seen it happen with my own two eyes, I`ve participated in it.

When you have people in place who push you to achieve those results, especially under pressure, two things happen... either you step up or you break.

Unfortunately, judging by the many collapses by TFC in its history, they tend to break. With the only exception being the game in Montreal this season.

[Whoop]

You can't possibly compare two totally fucking different sports to make an argument mighty. The Jays will always be stuck with the Red Sox, Yankees, and now even the Rays in the mix.

The MLS is all about parity. Any team can be good one year and suck the next. Expansion teams can always be in the playoff hunt or in Seattle's case be (right now) in good position to actually make it.

"With the salary cap its hard to bring it players left and right"

But you say that as if we're the only team in the league dealing with this problem. It's all in how you properly invest in good players.

Don't buy the 5 year plan. This is the MLS, not the MLB, or NBA, or NFL.


Playoffs should be realistic this year.

Agreed. Even having said that, if you run your team well, you should be able to consistently make the playoffs. i.e. Houston Dynamo.

[Cashcleaner]

Bah... I`m demanding MLS Cup, Supporters Shield, CONCACAF CL Champions, World Club Cup Championship, all of it.

It`s about demanding results and expectations.

You fuck up on the pitch, you`re accountable, you sit and if someone else does a better job than too bad.
It`s about demanding the best in the coaches, trainers, support staff, etc.

And I`m speaking in relative terms.

I mean we, as supporters, should be able to demand that our team has the best coaches, the best trainers, the best support staff, the best training facilities in the MLS. These things aren`t governed by a salary cap.

FUCKING YES!

We all know we have a cap. It's something that every team has to work around. But making the salary cap a scapegoat for poor performances is just ignorant of the fact that the league has little to no control over the club's coaching staff and support apparatuses.

Whoopee, you've got the best post thus far!

[Whoop]

Team Building 101

[Shakes McQueen]

But why can't we use those as legitimate examples?

Look, we all know each team is different and there are so many variables involved with how clubs are performing, but here's the thing - I know I keep saying it, but I'm going to keep raising the point until I'm blue in the face:

We are the second highest-grossing club in the league. Second place behind the LA Galaxy. Forbes valued us at $44 million dollars last year! We're also amongst the league leaders for merchandise sales.



There's no way around the fact that Toronto FC is making MLSE a metric assload of money. TFC is a virtual cash cow in so many respects! And yet despite all the cash the team is brining in, we're not looking in all that great of shape toward the end of this season. We're out of CONCACAF and the chances of making the playoffs are "iffy" to use a completely scientific term.

Look, I don't think I demand all that much. I just want a team that can compete and entertain me. But I really have to stand up and ask ask some questions as to how it is we've gotten into this position.

I wasn't suggesting they were wrong - just alerting Koryo that they were coming, haha. :D

- Scott

[Whoop]

In all seriousness, I wonder if somewhere in the FO there is something indicating what the goals or expectations of the team ON THE PITCH are.

I bet $10 there is something in writing regarding the financial goals of the team.

[TorCanSoc]

No one is out of a playofff spot, except NY. LA sucked ass until they went on a 13-points-from-5 games tear. Its all too tight still for definitive answer re: making the playoffs or not. Lets beat D.C. this weekend, and let another round of arguments begin. Some team is going to go on a four game losing skid, some mid-table team is going to win three in a row... I guarantee it. Happens every year, every sport, every level.

(great points-of-view by all though)

[Cashcleaner]

Actually, it's good you mentioned that. By all means, we're not out of the race yet. I don't think we should be (nor do I think we are) calling for anyone's head at the moment because numerically, we still have a shot at playoffs.

[twistedchinaman]

We can DREAM of having the MLS Cup.

But being at least at the second season to have a SHOT at it should be expected.

[koryo]

NO offence... But i think if you followed the situation closer you would know why the playoffs are expected this year...
Because Mo said so...as he did last year as well...
Not sure why this comes to you as such big achievement...

I know Mo said so, and he says things like that for the benefit of anyone who's daft enough to believe him.

In my mind, the playoffs become a considerable achievement when I look at our team and especially look at the fact that, in nearly three years now, they've only ever looked like they wanted to win one game.

[ensco]

In all seriousness, I wonder if somewhere in the FO there is something indicating what the goals or expectations of the team ON THE PITCH are.

I bet $10 there is something in writing regarding the financial goals of the team.

Whoopee, I don't think this is the exact problem. They want to win, I think. They probably have something about "being competitive each and every year" written some somewhere. But do they want to win as much as the other guy? Probably not.

I think the problem is corporate ownership. People who have a choice in life will almost never choose to work for a corporation over an individual entrepreneur. There are exceptions, I know, but I'm older, and I'm telling you, most people choose the problems of dealing with a single rich, curmudgeonly owner, over a corporate model, with the inevitable nest-of-vipers politics, and multiple business-related goals. For instance, I have heard cocktail party gossip that right now, this minute, MLSE's number one corporate priority, by far....is dealing with issues at the condo project they're building at the ACC.

Management talent gravitates towards the Robert Krafts and Mike Ilitch's of the world (sometimes the GM is so powerful that he makes the owner irrelevant, a la Man United, at least for now).

[Oldtimer]

Since you can't spend your way to winning, there are some keys to doing well in this league:

(1) Draft well. Get some good young prospects, and especially some GA players (who don't count against the cap).

(2) Manage your cap space well. Do a few good trades to improve your squad.

(3) Have decent coaching from someone who understands the league

(4) Find a couple of good internationals each year by good scouting

(5) Build team cohesion by keeping the same core together each year

(6) Bring up good prospects through the academy.

Mo is a great drafter, and most of his trades are good. Coaching is unproven, and we are terrible at team cohesion. Our academy is too new to give prospects at this point. I think that our biggest problem is 3 coaches in 3 years. You can't build a team that way. If Cummins can hack it, he should stay. Otherwise, we need to get a coach who will be here for years to come. We need to slow the revolving door of players in and out.

[CoachGT]

I mean we, as supporters, should be able to demand that our team has the best coaches, the best trainers, the best support staff, the best training facilities in the MLS. These things aren`t governed by a salary cap.

You need to go a step further here. We should have the best scouting staff and player development as well.

From all accounts, our facilities (other than the grass pitch) are considered to be without par. I was fortunate enough to speak with Huckerby after the San Jose game last year. When I asked him about the decision with respect to Toronto, he said that our training staff and our facilities were superior to anything he had ever seen (except for the god-awful turf - his comment was not that it was turf, but it wasn't even good turf!). Not the first time this comment has been made.

It will take some time for the player development piece to come out, but there isn't a lot of evidence of a structured scouting staff to qualify prospects, not only form the colleges but also from other leagues and teams. Mo's record in the draft has been the best of any GM in MLS while he has been here. But the track record in getting others from outside MLS has been relatively poor.

I don't know that we'll ever see world class coaches here until the standard of play rises significantly from where it is today. And I don't think that there would ever be agreement on coach and GM by supporters, fans, media and the team. But everything else should be in place.

[Oldtimer]

It will take some time for the player development piece to come out, but there isn't a lot of evidence of a structured scouting staff to qualify prospects, not only form the colleges but also from other leagues and teams. Mo's record in the draft has been the best of any GM in MLS while he has been here. But the track record in getting others from outside MLS has been relatively poor.


My thoughts, exactly.

[CoachGT]

We need to slow the revolving door of players in and out.

We agree on pretty much all points. And I agree that the number of player changes needs to be reduced, but it already is compared to the first 18 months of this team.

I think that there has to be some turnover just to keep the hunger there - maybe about 20% of the team every year. That means 4-5 players based on our current roster size. And every change should be an improvement.

[CoachGT]

My thoughts, exactly.

I'm not sure how much the turf/salary cap has been a factor in this. Turf can be overcome by money (sometimes) but the money is subject to a cap. We don't want to overpay for a player, but the turf does put us at a disadvantage. Despite all of our other advantages.

[olegunnar]

This league is set up so that no team is left behind. They do everything they can to ensure that every team will be successful (owing to the notion that people will support winners).

Lets bring this thread back on topic. Are we expecting too much too soon?

In the context of "regular leagues" that most people are used to following maybe we would be. However this league is not regular.

We're all used to CLUBs that can sign who they want within their means and who can develop their own players in their academies. Where good management is rewarded in promotion, and bad management is punished by relegation.
Starting from scratch is a huge under taking as the club is basically going it all alone has to pay their dues and has to climb the ladder.

We can't compare that to this FRANCHISE in MLS
This league has a cap.
This league has a draft
This league has allocations that are given to teams like welfare payments
This league has no bridge between the academies and the parent clubs.
This league has discovery claim lists.
The league tilts the scales in the favour of the new/bad teams in an effort to even the playing field and create parity/mediocraty

Think of it this way. The league has 14 businesses and has decided that it's better to reduce the risk of the worst performing business rather than to rely on the best performing business. It would rather have 14 okay businesses rather than 4 great ones and 6 okay ones and 4 struggling ones.

Being new...and sucking so hard...has given us a lot of advantages.

We've had the advantage of being at the top of the allocation list for most of our history, that's given us a "higher cap" than any other team in the league.

We've had the advantage of high draft positions. In three years we've had the #1, #2 and #3 picks in the draft.


Based on how MLS tries to even the playing field, and based on how we've had some advantages over other teams in the league. We need to remember the context of the league and our place in the league when we set our expecations.

This league is set up for parity, and artificially helps the crappy/new teams. With that in mind there's no reason to set the bar so low.

[Parkdale]

IT IS FOOTBALL AND IN THE WORDS OF TODEVILS,
"It is what it is".
KD.

cue Kevvv



and that's what he said? Kind of a counter point to his thousand word rant that I was sent.

[olegunnar]

Also there are people that seem to forget that on the world scale this is a low level league.

If people want to call us an "expansion" franchise and compare us to NHL, NFL NBA and MLB expansion sides and their growth curve, they're barking up the wrong tree.

Since we're in a low level league our pool of available talent is light years ahead of those teams.

It's like comparing the Raptors as an expansion team trying to build a successful NBA roster vs a Scandinavian basketball club trying to build a roster to compete in their league.

[tlear]

We gona make playoffs..

[CoachGT]

This league is set up so that no team is left behind. They do everything they can to ensure that every team will be successful (owing to the notion that people will support winners).

Lets bring this thread back on topic. Are we expecting too much too soon?

In the context of "regular leagues" that most people are used to following maybe we would be. However this league is not regular.

We're all used to CLUBs that can sign who they want within their means and who can develop their own players in their academies. Where good management is rewarded in promotion, and bad management is punished by relegation.
Starting from scratch is a huge under taking as the club is basically going it all alone has to pay their dues and has to climb the ladder.

We can't compare that to this FRANCHISE in MLS
This league has a cap.
This league has a draft
This league has allocations that are given to teams like welfare payments
This league has no bridge between the academies and the parent clubs.
This league has discovery claim lists.
The league tilts the scales in the favour of the new/bad teams in an effort to even the playing field and create parity/mediocraty

Think of it this way. The league has 14 businesses and has decided that it's better to reduce the risk of the worst performing business rather than to rely on the best performing business. It would rather have 14 okay businesses rather than 4 great ones and 6 okay ones and 4 struggling ones.

Being new...and sucking so hard...has given us a lot of advantages.

We've had the advantage of being at the top of the allocation list for most of our history, that's given us a "higher cap" than any other team in the league.

We've had the advantage of high draft positions. In three years we've had the #1, #2 and #3 picks in the draft.


Based on how MLS tries to even the playing field, and based on how we've had some advantages over other teams in the league. We need to remember the context of the league and our place in the league when we set our expecations.

This league is set up for parity, and artificially helps the crappy/new teams. With that in mind there's no reason to set the bar so low.

Agreed pretty much through. However, there are "foundational" things that may give a longer term advantage.

This league is somewhere between a development league for young talent and a full blown professional league, albeit at a lower level than the top 5 or 6 European leagues.

The possibility of going bottom to top exists , depending upon how you want to do it. But it usually means less youth and more experience.

I think that TFC's direction is sound - a combination of youth and experience, Canadian and International. Results have not been great to date for the perceived talent on the roster. Should it be better? You bet!

Would this team have been better if, in the first year, it had drafted very senior, experienced players in the expansion draft, traded away its top draft pick and built a team that would be good for a year or two (or less) and then mediocre for several years? (Sound like San Jose last year?)

The problem with true parity is that it often eliminates the dynasty, the team that everyone loves or hates. But even in "parity" leagues, dynastys do sometimes crop up.

Personally, I'd like to see Toronto FC become such a dynasty, so I'm setting a really high bar. But it will take time for that foundation to become established. In the meantime, I want to see compettiive football and some degree of success on the field leading up to a long run of championships.

[olegunnar]

Would this team have been better if, in the first year, it had drafted very senior, experienced players in the expansion draft, traded away its top draft pick and built a team that would be good for a year or two (or less) and then mediocre for several years? (Sound like San Jose last year?)



Personally, I'd like to see Toronto FC become such a dynasty, so I'm setting a really high bar. But it will take time for that foundation to become established. In the meantime, I want to see compettiive football and some degree of success on the field leading up to a long run of championships.

Thanks for the reasoned reply.

In theory I agree with you about laying a foundation for future success, however in practice that's not what's happening. Mo has built a very old team.


Our backline of Brennan, Serioux Garcia and Wynn is... 32, 30, 30 and 23

Our Midfield of Robbinson, Guevara, DeRo and Cronin is...32,33, 31 and 22

Upfront Gerba and Barrett/Vitti is...28 and 24 that's not counting 34 yr old Dichio

This kind of experienced roster looks to me like a playoffs or bust roster, rather than a laying a foundation roster.

[CoachGT]

I think that there is some youth to be considered. Our keepers are both young. We've a good crop of young players for the backline (Attakora, Sanyang, Gomez). Wynne is still young. Up front, White is a good prospect, and Gala seems okay. Gerba is still young enough. And Cronin is already well on his way. Ibbe has shown he can play. Are they all ready for 90 minutes every game? No, not all of them, and there is something that they can learn from the more established guys. I'm hoping that 30/31/32 still have a couple of good years to play.

And we know that there will be some attrition - Danny will be done by the end of the year, and despite the perception otherwise, he is a role player expecting limited minutes on this team, something he seems comfortable with. I'd expect the same of Brennan and Robbo (becoming more "role players" next year), and can see Guevara moving on within a year or two.

I'm hoping that the academy can generate one or two players that can move up within 2-3 years.

Our existing roster should be capable of making the playoffs - I agree, but I also think there is a good crop of replacements already in residence.

[olegunnar]

Who would you say is the foundation of this team going forward? What 4-5 players are the core for the future?
How many of them have more than 20 career starts?
How many of them we're here in year 1? year 2? are new this year?
Most of the players you mentioned are new this year. Are we just starting to build the foundation this year? What happened to year 1 and 2?

I'm not trying to be argumentative but I just don't see any reliable foundation being built.

We just seem to throw allocation at teams so they'll trade us their older players. Guevara, Garcia, Serioux, DeRo.

I'd be a little bit (just a little) more content with these crappy seasons if there was some sort of tangible foundation being built.

Instead we have allocation money players...and then a every year we get new cheap youngsters to pin our future hopes on.

Option 1. If we're going to be an older team that makes use of our allocation money...fine...win.
Option 2. If we're going to be a team that builds around a group of talented youngsters...fine...but we didn't do that.

Since we're obviously option 1. I think it's fair to hold the team and management to that standard.

We're not option 2...so I believe it's incorrect to hold the team to that standard. I get the impression a chunk of those that aren't pining for on field success are holdign the team to that standard.

[mmmikey]

This essentially reflects my opinion. I will be immensely disappointed if we don't make the playoffs this season, because I think we have a good enouch club to do it. They just aren't playing to their full potential, and I think the tactics and coaching could be better.

I never expected us to advance beyond that. It would be all gravy from there.

Ditto.

The talent of the team is better and I have seen with my own eyes what this team is capable of achieving. I feel certain that with better tactics/team selection/training, we would be a lock to make the playoffs. Not win it, but make the playoffs. We have enough pieces, but it feels like they are being wasted.

I haven't seen any team in MLS look head and shoulders above TFC. It's a very small difference between top and almost bottom in this league (NYRB doesn't count as a team this year.. more like a speed bump).

Watching TFC lately has been like watching some idiot trying to put together a puzzle by forcing all the pieces together. Just want to slap their hands and scream THOSE PIECES DONT FIT LIKE THAT!!!!!

It's not an unreasonable expectation to want your team to make the most of what it has. If they do, I feel like we are at least in the top 8 of 13 teams.

[s2cazz]

I could live with no playoffs if we had atleast made the group stage of CCL....one or the other...but this year has been heartbreeaking and if you can't admit that then your just fooling yourself

[Parkdale]

I could live with no playoffs if we had atleast made the group stage of CCL....one or the other...


at the beginning of the season, pretty much everyone agreed on these two goals:



Win the Voyagers Cup
make the Playoffs

it's not fair to raise the goals mid-season. I'm thrilled we won the voyagers cup.
it would have been nice to have made the group stages of CONCACAF, but I wasn't expecting it.

[DangerRed]

at the beginning of the season, pretty much everyone agreed on these two goals:



Win the Voyagers Cup
make the Playoffs
it's not fair to raise the goals mid-season. I'm thrilled we won the voyagers cup.
it would have been nice to have made the group stages of CONCACAF, but I wasn't expecting it.

Well put. They've accomplished half the goals they've set for themselves. Now, the playoffs remain. Here's hoping.

[GlenM]

*** Important: not judging anyone, just curious ***

Okay, I'm seeing a lot of aggro over the fact that me likely won't make the playoffs this year.

It seems as though a certain number of people thought that, once we signed Dero and Serioux, we'd get there no problem - that somehow we became world beaters.

This was never going to be the case, as there's plenty that still needs doing with this team. So I'm curious as to why the expectation was set.

Is it that because we're in our third year that we're entitled to make the playoffs?

I've been watching the game since 1979 and have never really seen a team go from shit to the top in three years.

I agree Koryo!

To be honest, were on the bubble at the moment for playoffs.

They has been some improvements, no one person etc... should be blamed.

Cummings has done the best he can under the circumstances.

The MLSE and others have to show us more support & respect.

We have spoken about grass, dp etc... but still it's only been 3 years!

Some sports teams have gone forever without making playoffs...

Do you really want to make it and get blown out by Columbus and/or Chicago in the first round.

As much as it bites to admit, Chicago\Columbus are on fire at the moment.

Why?

Because, they're committed. They know how to win.

Playoffs is a good goal and I believe we can do it.

I have seen the players come out not interested, I know they're trying but something's missing big time.

That's why Puerto Rico got through, they looked us straight in the eye, we knew they would play that way and we had no answer.

TFC has some good players, chemistry is important but I see still a lack of fitness, interest, experience/depth, it all takes time.

Seattle has done pretty well.

We need to develop and improve on all fronts, scouting, teamwork etc...

One minute we think were best team in world then were borderline playoffs at best.

Koryo is right, doesn't hurt to look in the mirror and realize Yes, we still have work to do.

:scarf:

GlenM

[rocker]

*** Important: not judging anyone, just curious ***

Okay, I'm seeing a lot of aggro over the fact that me likely won't make the playoffs this year.

It seems as though a certain number of people thought that, once we signed Dero and Serioux, we'd get there no problem - that somehow we became world beaters.

This was never going to be the case, as there's plenty that still needs doing with this team. So I'm curious as to why the expectation was set.

Is it that because we're in our third year that we're entitled to make the playoffs?

I've been watching the game since 1979 and have never really seen a team go from shit to the top in three years.

in my annual season record prediction thread back in the spring, I predicted a record of 11-10-9 and playoffs ... I'm stickin to it :)

my expectations were an average team.. it's the rest of ya who have the really high expectations!! ;)

[905shmick]

Set your expectations low and you'll always hit them.

[Pachuco]

All I have to say is this...we should make the playoffs this year...

BECAUSE MLSE SET IT AS A GOAL!!!!

And so, what is so wrong about holding MLSE accountable for not meeting their goals?

[The Professor]

Set your expectations low and you'll always hit them.

Set your expectations too high and you'll just end up getting hemorrhoids from the endless hours spent as armchair manager.

God knows Prep H sales must be through the roof in Toronto these days.

Good post Koryo.

[Parkdale]

Set your expectations low and you'll always hit them.

that's not the case here.

it's not fair to change the rules in the middle of the game.
You can't raise the bar when someone is already trying to jump over it.

sure, we all want to win the cups (MLS and CONCACAF),
but this isn't a case of aiming low. It's a case of giving the team
a goal and then recognizing when (if) they meet that goal.

[Parkdale]

All I have to say is this...we should make the playoffs this year...

BECAUSE MLSE SET IT AS A GOAL!!!!

And so, what is so wrong about holding MLSE accountable for not meeting their goals?


2 goals - voyagers cup & mls playoffs.

We've met one of them, and the other one isn't out of our grasp yet.

[mlsintoronto]

In theory I agree with you about laying a foundation for future success, however in practice that's not what's happening. Mo has built a very old team.


Our backline of Brennan, Serioux Garcia and Wynn is... 32, 30, 30 and 23

Our Midfield of Robbinson, Guevara, DeRo and Cronin is...32,33, 31 and 22

Upfront Gerba and Barrett/Vitti is...28 and 24 that's not counting 34 yr old Dichio

This kind of experienced roster looks to me like a playoffs or bust roster, rather than a laying a foundation roster.


Just because I have it handy - we did a complete league wide analysis as of July 19, and Toronto has the third youngest team in the league (avg age). Dallas and RSL are younger. We're slightly over 25. LA is highest at just over 27.5 yrs avg.

And not that you asked - some other interesting stats for those who like numbers:

We also had 3rd fewest lineup changes at that time (RSL and KC are fewer). We have been far more disciplined - 3rd fewest yellow, and fewest red cards, and middle of the pack in fouls committed.

[Parkdale]

oh, and I'm not saying that there haven't been some huge disappointments along the line
(losing to mustachio on the Islanders is a big one) but there's always ups and downs.

Hell.... if you want a team that wins all the time, baseball might be a better option.

[905shmick]

Set your expectations too high and you'll just end up getting hemorrhoids from the endless hours spent as armchair manager.

God knows Prep H sales must be through the roof in Toronto these days.

Good post Koryo.

Naw, Toronto fans are used to lubing up and taking it up the hoop from MLSE.

[Bluenose13]

We WILL make the playoff's this year!

The away team WILL plan a road trip & 100's of supporters will travel to see TFC in the playoff's THIS year.

It WILL be fun & I will not read or believe anything different.......So fuck off all of you non believers :D

[Parkdale]

and middle of the pack in fouls committed.


can you get those stats in 'with Harmse' and 'without Harmse' breakdowns?

[rocker]

oh, and I'm not saying that there haven't been some huge disappointments along the line
(losing to mustachio on the Islanders is a big one) but there's always ups and downs.

Hell.... if you want a team that wins all the time, baseball might be a better option.

damnmit, let's just drop the cap and BUY A CHAMPIONSHIP! isn't that how it's done everywhere else!!!! ;) ;)

[olegunnar]

Just because I have it handy - we did a complete league wide analysis as of July 19, and Toronto has the third youngest team in the league (avg age). Dallas and RSL are younger. We're slightly over 25. LA is highest at just over 27.5 yrs avg.

And not that you asked - some other interesting stats for those who like numbers:


I'm curious...what's the management team's postion on that analysis? is it felt to be a solid study? or maybe nice to know but flawed because we have so many youngins (Ibby, 2 gambians, white, Gala etc. almost 25% of our roster) that don't see the field yet are included? Is there any weighting done to compensate for the fact we don't have a full roster?

You mentioned we have the 3rd fewest line up changes....is there an analysis of the ages of those starting line ups?

to be honest I don't know...and I was going to take a quick peak after work today at other team's starting line ups. Considering how untested our bench is I'm not sure I personally would count them in the study. Obrien White for example is tied with Lombardo and Werewolf on the all time scoring list.

[mmmikey]

Just because I have it handy - we did a complete league wide analysis as of July 19, and Toronto has the third youngest team in the league (avg age). Dallas and RSL are younger. We're slightly over 25. LA is highest at just over 27.5 yrs avg.

And not that you asked - some other interesting stats for those who like numbers:

We also had 3rd fewest lineup changes at that time (RSL and KC are fewer). We have been far more disciplined - 3rd fewest yellow, and fewest red cards, and middle of the pack in fouls committed.

interesting stats.. i think the main concern though is that we have a collection of youngsters pulling down that average age, which are not necessarily seeing significant time (guys like Gala, Sanyang wasn't even eligible, Gomez, Ibrahim, OBW has been injured...).

i would like to see the following statistic to see if this is true or not:
-average age of starting lineup for MLS games & further
-average age of starting lineup + subs used for MLS games.

im more with CoachGT on this one though, as TFC do have a good group of young guys for the future. however one has to wonder if our aging stars aren't able to lead by example enough to lift and focus the younger players. at times, the youngest are the ones who seem most up for the game.

[Yohan]

Since you can't spend your way to winning, there are some keys to doing well in this league:

(1) Draft well. Get some good young prospects, and especially some GA players (who don't count against the cap).

(2) Manage your cap space well. Do a few good trades to improve your squad.

(3) Have decent coaching from someone who understands the league

(4) Find a couple of good internationals each year by good scouting

(5) Build team cohesion by keeping the same core together each year

(6) Bring up good prospects through the academy.

totally agreed

I'd also add

7. Sign good depth players for 40k to 80k per year. Players like Alan Gordon, Chris Birchall, Dax McCarthy who aren't expensive, but just good enough to play in MLS and can fill in when injury bug or when you want to give your starters a rest.

8. Manage your roster spots well, so that no deadwood in your team. Can't afford to waste even one roster spot on a player who can't contribute to your team.

[olegunnar]

im more with CoachGT on this one though, as TFC do have a good group of young guys for the future. however one has to wonder if our aging stars aren't able to lead by example enough to lift and focus the younger players. at times, the youngest are the ones who seem most up for the game.


I wish we had a core of players we were building around. It would be easier to swallow the 3 failing seasons if we had a foundation we were building on, and could watch the players develop on a weekly basis.

Remember Ricketts and Welsh ( I could add a lot more but leave it at that)...they were young players we signed...after they got playing time though it was obvious they weren't the answer. It's too soon to write off Ibby...but his growth curve seems to be pretty flat.
What happens if or when the gambians and white don't pan out?

Are we rebuilding every year?

[ensco]

Hey Paul - this is fun. Could you scan everything on your desk and put it up here?

[mmmikey]

I wish we had a core of players we were building around. It would be easier to swallow the 3 failing seasons if we had a foundation we were building on, and could watch the players develop on a weekly basis.

Remember Ricketts and Welsh ( I could add a lot more but leave it at that)...they were young players we signed...after they got playing time though it was obvious they weren't the answer. It's too soon to write off Ibby...but his growth curve seems to be pretty flat.
What happens if or when the gambians and white don't pan out?

Are we rebuilding every year?

can't get caught up in what-ifs tho ole.. it's a no win situation and you will jsut drive yourself nuts with the unknown.

among the youngest in the squad; the gambians, nana, frei, cronin, maybe gala if he ever gets a good chance look like they could do the job for us in mls. all you can do after that is wait and see. player development is never gauranteed.

i agree about Ibby tho.. he seemed to have so much more life in his game before.

[CoachGT]

Pretty much a risk you take with every team. Some players start out okay but just don't work out.

Welsh was an experiment and did not work. Ricketts is a good player, but the combination of skills available and cost (under the cap system) worked against him. Ricketts wasn't a guy you'd rebuild around - he was here to give his career a jump start so that he could regain form he had in Europe and he expected to return there
(at least, that was how I thought of him when he first arrived).

I've worked with junior hockey teams for much of the past 15 years (Tier 2 Jr A - Stouffville Spirit and Newmarket Hurricanes). You can see some kids develop, but others that you think are the real deal sometimes aren't. That is what scouting is all about - more often than not you can predict how a player might turn out, but you have to see them a number of times in game action. And you are not always right.

Disagree that Ibby's growth is flat - he's playing on the US U20s. He hasn't had much playing time for us this year, partially because he's been away, and partially because of the people playing ahead of him. He's still really young and has a ton of upside. I thought his playing time in the past was given because of a lack of other options, despite his talent.

Looking at a future depth chart:

----------Frei/Edwards-----------

--Gomez-----Attakora----Wynne--

Ibby----Sanyang----Cronin----Gala

---------White----Gerba---------

I'd say that's not a bad core. Is there a "star" in this group? Don't know yet, but I'd bet on Frei and Cronin based upon what we've seen to date.

[mmmikey]

since i want to be like yohan im going to quote this one too. ;)



(1) Draft well. Get some good young prospects, and especially some GA players (who don't count against the cap).

(2) Manage your cap space well. Do a few good trades to improve your squad.

(3) Have decent coaching from someone who understands the league

(4) Find a couple of good internationals each year by good scouting

(5) Build team cohesion by keeping the same core together each year

(6) Bring up good prospects through the academy.



i look at these points.. and while #5 is hard for a 3rd year franchise given how much building is being done, i would firmly believe TFC has done a good job in each of these categories with the exception of #4. cummins had the job thrust on him unexpectedly so i won't dump on him (again).

anyone else feel we are one great coach away from a very good season?

[Oldtimer]

anyone else feel we are one great coach away from a very good season?

Could be true. I wonder if Cummins can grow into a good Coach, or whether we get a Frank Yallop (say) to put us over the top.

[Yohan]

since i want to be like yohan im going to quote this one too. ;)
you don't want to be a sketchy crazy asian kid ;)


anyone else feel we are one great coach away from a very good season?kinda.

I think we're on CONSISTENT season away from having a very good year

Drives me bananas when I see TFC play like the best team in the league one game, and look like Shite Bulls the next game

so, while I think having a great coach would do wonders to mentality to the team, I do think this team can be consistent without a big name MLS coach

[olegunnar]

can't get caught up in what-ifs tho ole.. it's a no win situation and you will jsut drive yourself nuts with the unknown.

among the youngest in the squad; the gambians, nana, frei, cronin, maybe gala if he ever gets a good chance look like they could do the job for us in mls. all you can do after that is wait and see. player development is never gauranteed.

i agree about Ibby tho.. he seemed to have so much more life in his game before.

You're right.
However my point is...building a young core is a process. We seem to re-start that process every year which means we make little or no progress

Year 1:
We have Wynne from year that's it. Gala doesn't play (although I wonder if that's because of the interim tag on Cummins) and the rest of the younger players are gone.

Year 2:
All we have left is Ibby. Everyone else is gone...tweeted away.

Year 3:
We have the next crop. Of which only Frei and Cronin have started a league game. I think the Gambians might pan out...but only time will tell. Edit to include Nana...he's started.

So the first 2 years of our franchse we added 1 starter to our "core" and that's assuming Wynne is a long term solution.


I'm not expecting a core of Giggs Scholes, Neville twins and Beckham....but I do find it very concerning (if we're going to try and argue we're a building team) that we don't have an obvious core for the future.

[Roogsy]

I agree with olegunner.

Because of the nature of the MLS, there is very little evidence teams can build a "core" from their youngsters. Especially those from the draft system, they tend to be role players and bench support...not a core to build a team around.

[Yohan]

You're right.
However my point is...building a young core is a process. We seem to re-start that process every year.

Year 1:
We have Wynne from year that's it. Gala doesn't play (although I wonder if that's because of the interim tag on Cummins) and the rest of the younger players are gone.

Year 2:
All we have left is Ibby.

Year 3:
We have the next crop. Of which only Frei and Cronin have started a league game

So the first 2 years of our franchse we added 1 starter to our "core" and that's assuming Wynne is a long term solution.


I'm not expecting a core of Giggs Scholes, Neville twins and Beckham....but I do find it very concerning (if we're going to try and argue we're a building team) that we don't have an obvious core for the future.
a bit of rebuttal

Year 1: due to MLS rules, TFC couldn't stock up on young international players, and didn't have enough scouting knowledge to find out which Canadian youngsters are good

Year 2: expanded a bit more on Canadian youngssters, which a few did get some look

Year 3: change to MLS rules decimated youngsters on developmental roster spots

so, I think some of the young guys we had in year 1 and 2 would have stayed in the team, if it wasn't for MLS rule change

[Parkdale]

Hey Paul - this is fun. Could you scan everything on your desk and put it up here?


hahahaha. good one.:D

[Beach_Red]

I agree with olegunner.

Because of the nature of the MLS, there is very little evidence teams can build a "core" from their youngsters. Especially those from the draft system, they tend to be role players and bench support...not a core to build a team around.


I agree... sort of.

I've never followed a team that had nationality as an issue for roster spots before, so it's taking some getting used to.

Should the roster spots be managed differently for domestic vs. international players?

When we have these player discussions (and it's fun and infomative to read what you guys have to say, so keep it coming) should we seperate domestic vs. international? It seems like the core has to be built with domestic players and the internationals come and go more often.

Whe we look for players to be part of that core, should we really only be looking at domestic plyers?

[Yohan]

I agree with olegunner.

Because of the nature of the MLS, there is very little evidence teams can build a "core" from their youngsters. Especially those from the draft system, they tend to be role players and bench support...not a core to build a team around.
hmmm... you should ask Steve Nicol how you put together a team with solid core of youngsters

you'd be surprised how many rookies are getting first team minutes this year

[olegunnar]

I agree with olegunner.

Because of the nature of the MLS, there is very little evidence teams can build a "core" from their youngsters. Especially those from the draft system, they tend to be role players and bench support...not a core to build a team around.

I don't know about that.

I think you can...but it takes a good mix. One we don't have.

For example why couldn't Gabe Gala be treated more like Corey Ashe?

Corey Ashe's first two years in the league he played in roughly 25 games each year with 10 or so starts.

Now in the 3rd year of his MLS career he's developed into a regular starter on the best team in the league. Why haven't we developed any players? Not one. What sub from year 1 or 2 is now a starter in year 3?

Why are our young players either burried on the bench or expected to be a starter? There's no development going on.

To me the problem is too many expensive old guys. Different old guys every year. There doesn't seem to be a commitment to the talented young players. Or at least there hasn't been. Every year the roster is patchworked together willy nilly

Also the interim tag doesn't help at all either. You're Cummins...you want a steady paycheque...do you play brennan on the wing? Or commit to Gala's development? Do you play a tired out of shape Gerba (who's top 5 all time for goals for Canada)? Or give OBW (who's never socred a pro goal) a run out?

[KdotOdot]

It was a cold year in Uxbridge, it was the first year Mother Jenny didn't prepare her famous preserves. While all the children pouted and scoffed the adults in the village knew the truth. You see Mother Jenny's husband Wilfred had not been home for a month. Locals had spotted him on several occasions, but he seems to always avoid their advances whenever they approached.

Wilfred was ususally a quite cheerful and personable fellow, so this sudden change of character confused people. Furthermore, Mother Jenny had not been seen outside of her house in weeks aside from the necessary grocery trip. She even avoided Cardinals Books, a staple in her weekly routine. Oh how Mother Jenny loved to explore Cardinals. It's walls kept inside them a history of the world seen through thousands of varied eyes. she had loved that store since childhood and never missed an oppertunity to visit on thursadys when the new shipments arrived.

No trips to Cardinals. No famous preserves. Wilfred running about town wild. It was quite evident that something quite catostrophic was going to occur in Uxbridge. They townspeople were anxious. Days grew into nothing more than constant states of alert, for no more reason than a bad smell in the air. Something was changing the mood of the village.

No one could explain it but they could feel it everywhere. The leaves looked as they were being held in a withered state, cruely kept alive for the amusment of their tormentor. Clouds were a particularly gloomy shade of greyish brown, which resembled the morning waste of ale and swine. Dogs never wagged their tails. Baby's whimpered constantly but never cried. Food lost all flavour.

No one could explain any of these strange occurences. People were begining to leave the village in droves. Until one day a carridge pulled into town, and with it a mysterious stranger.

Anyone want to add to this? I mean we have been writing pointless stories for the past 4 pages. Isn't that the idea?

[mmmikey]

It was a cold year in Uxbridge *cut*


so basically that was a really wordy troll post?

[mmmikey]

You're right.
However my point is...building a young core is a process. We seem to re-start that process every year which means we make little or no progress

Year 1:
We have Wynne from year that's it. Gala doesn't play (although I wonder if that's because of the interim tag on Cummins) and the rest of the younger players are gone.

Year 2:
All we have left is Ibby. Everyone else is gone...tweeted away.

Year 3:
We have the next crop. Of which only Frei and Cronin have started a league game. I think the Gambians might pan out...but only time will tell. Edit to include Nana...he's started.

So the first 2 years of our franchse we added 1 starter to our "core" and that's assuming Wynne is a long term solution.


I'm not expecting a core of Giggs Scholes, Neville twins and Beckham....but I do find it very concerning (if we're going to try and argue we're a building team) that we don't have an obvious core for the future.

i see your point ole, and mls doesn't make anything easy. but wouldn't you say as of right now, we have a good collection of youth that shows some promise? i feel like we have more promising younger players than at the end of last season.. and to me that's progress.

your right about the "interim" tag certainly not helping with younger players developing. let alone our position in the league not exactly helping them see playing time. this is probably the ONLY good thing about the exhibition games.. some of those guys would barely see action otherwise.

[KdotOdot]

so basically that was a really wordy troll post?

No it's fucking metaphore about the state of TFC. Jesus Zombie Christ get with it!

[mmmikey]

No it's fucking metaphore about the state of TFC. Jesus Zombie Christ get with it!

i stopped reading once i saw "Mother Jenny" :P

[Pachuco]

2 goals - voyagers cup & mls playoffs.

We've met one of them, and the other one isn't out of our grasp yet.

Right, but the question in the initial post in this thread was,

Why should we expect TFC to make the playoffs?

Is it that because we're in our third year that we're entitled to make the playoffs?

I was simply answering the question. It's because the team agreed that these were the goals and have led me to believe that it was certainly possible to do so.

[Parkdale]

ahh... there's that word.... 'entitlement'.

They (mlse) said they wanted to make the playoffs this year, and that was their goal.
I don't think it's a matter of it being our third season or anything, that's just where they
think they should be quality-wise.

[Nomad]

ahh... there's that word.... 'entitlement'.


I fully embrace this word.

[ua-kozak_TFC]

Thanks for the reasoned reply.

In theory I agree with you about laying a foundation for future success, however in practice that's not what's happening. Mo has built a very old team.


Our backline of Brennan, Serioux Garcia and Wynn is... 32, 30, 30 and 23

Our Midfield of Robbinson, Guevara, DeRo and Cronin is...32,33, 31 and 22

Upfront Gerba and Barrett/Vitti is...28 and 24 that's not counting 34 yr old Dichio

This kind of experienced roster looks to me like a playoffs or bust roster, rather than a laying a foundation roster.
Thanmks buddy Really great post that SHOWS FACTS!!! ... something you don;t see from people who want MO to stay...

[ua-kozak_TFC]

you don't want to be a sketchy crazy asian kid ;)
kinda.

I think we're on CONSISTENT season away from having a very good year

Drives me bananas when I see TFC play like the best team in the league one game, and look like Shite Bulls the next game

so, while I think having a great coach would do wonders to mentality to the team, I do think this team can be consistent without a big name MLS coach
LOL I think you;ve seen the play like best team in the league AGAINST shitbulls... And that's the problem.

[Yohan]

LOL I think you;ve seen the play like best team in the league AGAINST shitbulls... And that's the problem.
actually, season opener vs KC and at home vs Chivas... at home vs New England was pretty solid as well

[ua-kozak_TFC]

actually, season opener vs KC and at home vs Chivas... at home vs New England was pretty solid as well
we played ok NOT like a team the best in the league... Against KC we got raelly lucky at the endand were prettymuch goaltending with 11 players in the last 15 minutes. Chivas played well and won... but nothing mind blowing...

[ua-kozak_TFC]

actually, season opener vs KC and at home vs Chivas... at home vs New England was pretty solid as well
also you just named 3 games... out of 20 games played... that is quite weak for a "playoff team"....

[jloome]

It was a cold year in Uxbridge, it was the first year Mother Jenny didn't prepare her famous preserves. While all the children pouted and scoffed the adults in the village knew the truth. You see Mother Jenny's husband Wilfred had not been home for a month. Locals had spotted him on several occasions, but he seems to always avoid their advances whenever they approached.

Wilfred was ususally a quite cheerful and personable fellow, so this sudden change of character confused people. Furthermore, Mother Jenny had not been seen outside of her house in weeks aside from the necessary grocery trip. She even avoided Cardinals Books, a staple in her weekly routine. Oh how Mother Jenny loved to explore Cardinals. It's walls kept inside them a history of the world seen through thousands of varied eyes. she had loved that store since childhood and never missed an oppertunity to visit on thursadys when the new shipments arrived.

No trips to Cardinals. No famous preserves. Wilfred running about town wild. It was quite evident that something quite catostrophic was going to occur in Uxbridge. They townspeople were anxious. Days grew into nothing more than constant states of alert, for no more reason than a bad smell in the air. Something was changing the mood of the village.

No one could explain it but they could feel it everywhere. The leaves looked as they were being held in a withered state, cruely kept alive for the amusment of their tormentor. Clouds were a particularly gloomy shade of greyish brown, which resembled the morning waste of ale and swine. Dogs never wagged their tails. Baby's whimpered constantly but never cried. Food lost all flavour.

No one could explain any of these strange occurences. People were begining to leave the village in droves. Until one day a carridge pulled into town, and with it a mysterious stranger.

Anyone want to add to this? I mean we have been writing pointless stories for the past 4 pages. Isn't that the idea?

Perhaps you could fill us in on the mating habits of the white African rhinocerous.

[Rudi]

Why haven't we developed any players? Not one. What sub from year 1 or 2 is now a starter in year 3?
Nana Attakora.

I get what you're saying, and to a degree I concur. I just hate when people resort to hyperbole to try to prove a point that could be proven with the usage of actual fact.

[Yohan]

we played ok NOT like a team the best in the league... Against KC we got raelly lucky at the endand were prettymuch goaltending with 11 players in the last 15 minutes. Chivas played well and won... but nothing mind blowing...
uh, the KC season opener, Davy Arnaud got lucky with two incredible strikes. TFC pretty much pwned that game

Same with Chivas game. This was when Chivas was one of the best teams in the league, but TFC controlled the game for the most of the time.

Even early season wins vs KC, TFC controlled the game for most of the game, IIRC. Early TFC did not have trouble creating chances, but finishing them.