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Beach_Red
08-08-2009, 10:32 AM
Yesterday in another thread I said that there could be a Canadian soccer league to rival the CFL soon - 8 -10 teams across the country, good TV ratings, filling stadiums as big as CFL stadiums, $4-5 million dollar payrolls, etc.

And today the Toronto Star runs the results of a survey by the University of Lethbridge that offers some stats to back that up.

Among teenagers, soccer (it doesn't specify a league) is followed "very" or "fairly" closely by 18% while the CFL only gets 14%. Going by city, only Ottawa (?) and Edmonton show higher rates for the CFL over soccer. The NFL does score slightly higher nationally at 19%. In Toronto the numbers for soccer are 25% and for the CFL 8%.

This isn't mean to bash the CFL, I like the league, but just to show that the potential for a Canadian soccer league of the same size is quite possible.

The article is here, http://www.thestar.com/sports/article/678277, but the online version doesn't have the handy chart.

Cashcleaner
08-08-2009, 10:42 AM
^ I wouldn't disagree with those numbers. The league (CFL) is still going incredibly strong at the moment with attendance and overall revenue up all across the board, and I think Canadian Football and soccer can co-exist quite happily, but soccer does indeed have a greater potential for growth out of the two. If anything, baseball might be the sport that starts slipping up here in Canada.

AdamZ
08-08-2009, 12:18 PM
it's possible, but I don't think having an independent Canadian league is really that great of an idea.

What I think would be great is if the MLS worked like this:

American League 1 teams play each other, the top teams move on to a playoff round, and meet teams who advanced from American League 2.

The Canadian League, which, say, consists of Toronto, Vancouver, Montreal, Calgary, Edmonton... Winnipeg? Victoria? Halifax? starts its season a little later than the American Leagues because it's going to be shorter, and the top two teams move on to the playoffs, at which point there is a random draw to determine who plays who. Screw inter-league play during the regular season.

That Canadian League would have the financial security of being part of an organization the size of MLS (do you want the CSA operating our league?), but independent enough that it would garner interest as a Canadian league in its own right, and should probably at least equal the CFL in TV ratings and merchandising etc. TFC is already bigger than the Argos... I mean, I know a lot of people who only follow the Stamps because they kinda like football and because tickets are dirt cheap.

As for that article, it's more than a little panicky about hockey in Canada, hockey is still nationally by far the most popular sport, even among younger people. Baseball's days are numbered, I think, and remember that teenagers are much more likely to side with the NFL over the CFL (19% is a high number compared to the overall number of NFL fans in Canada, not to mention the Grey Cup routinely trumps the Superbowl on TV) just because they tend to be gloryhunters at a younger age and will gravitate towards the bigger league. Just from personal experience I know five people who used to hate the CFL who are now all Rider fans, and only casually follow the NFL.

rocker
08-08-2009, 12:55 PM
CFL has maxed out its support tho... soccer can only go up.

to be honest, it's a sport with lower public participation compared to hockey and soccer in this country, and it's living off the general interest in the sport through the NFL.

I think in a generation soccer could easily surpass the CFL here in ratings and interest, particularly as demographics shift. I just don't see immigrants from Asia, Europe, India, and the Middle East taking up Canadian football or developing an interest in it, particularly with more soccer options locally.

The CFL has always been more of a whitebread 5th-generation-Canadian sport anyways. I can't see it standing up in 20 years to soccer.

TFC07
08-08-2009, 01:03 PM
Only people who watch CFL games in GTA (I can't speak for rest of Canada) are old folks and rednecks. Don't be surprise in next 20 years to see Argos and Blue Jays leaving Toronto while Toronto Raptors become most supported team in GTA. Maple Leafs are going to lose a lot of support in GTA simply because city's demographic. TFC is a big question mark IMO. If this team is still lead by British management, then the support isn't going to grow much in GTA.

Rampage
08-08-2009, 01:10 PM
Only people who watch CFL games in GTA (I can't speak for rest of Canada) are old folks and rednecks. Don't be surprise in next 20 years to see Argos and Blue Jays leaving Toronto while Toronto Raptors become most supported team in GTA. Maple Leafs are going to lose a lot of support in GTA simply because city's demographic. TFC is a big question mark IMO. If this team is still lead by British management, then the support isn't going to grow much in GTA.



Big Raptors fan? I find the fan base no stronger than the Jays or Argos. The tv #'s are weak. I wonder how many of the 82 games will be on regular cable this season?

TFC07
08-08-2009, 01:11 PM
Big Raptors fan?

Yeah, but however, there was a survey done recently saying basketball is most supported sport in teenage age group (future of our society) in GTA.

Rampage
08-08-2009, 01:12 PM
^^^ that's great. I don't put much stock into surveys. At the same time, I wonder why the Canadian basketball program seems to be regressing?

AdamZ
08-08-2009, 01:14 PM
Wow, some crazy things being said about the CFL here. I'm guessing it's because you're in Argos territory and they're hardly all that popular in Toronto from what I gather.

I can tell you that there are plenty of immigrants who go to McMahon stadium or watch the games on TV and have become CFL fans. I understand that if you're from Toronto you have a different image of the CFL, but the CFL is hardly this minnow sport some of you are making it out to be.


(I can't speak for rest of Canada)

well, you acknowledge this at least. Yeah, old folks and 'rednecks' make up a big part of the football audience in the rest of Canada as well, but a fair number of youth are interested as well, certainly more than are interested in soccer. Toronto is a different story entirely.

AdamZ
08-08-2009, 01:15 PM
Yeah, but however, there was a survey done recently saying basketball is most supported sport in teenage age group (future of our society) in GTA.

doesn't mean squat. These surveys and studies are at the most a loose indication of trends, even proper studies are suspect IMO. Basketball ratings are weak, very few people really care at all in Canada, Toronto has the biggest fanbase and even that isn't so great. I doubt even Montreal or Vancouver could support a basketball franchise. Correct me if I'm wrong, but baseball ratings and such are still bigger than basketball's, right? The Raptors may be a sustainable franchise, but don't give 'em too much credit. The Leafs are never going to be overtaken as the city's biggest and most supported franchise.

TFC07
08-08-2009, 01:16 PM
^^^ that's great. I don't put much stock into surveys. At the same time, I wonder why the Canadian basketball program seems to be regressing?

Canadian basketball is run by bunch of idiots. (they're no different than CSA)...but however, Canada is starting to produce quality players.

Canada's Elite team steamrolling American competition

Link: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/11982755

Good read.

tfcleeds
08-08-2009, 01:16 PM
Only people who watch CFL games in GTA (I can't speak for rest of Canada) are old folks and rednecks. Don't be surprise in next 20 years to see Argos and Blue Jays leaving Toronto while Toronto Raptors become most supported team in GTA. Maple Leafs are going to lose a lot of support in GTA simply because city's demographic. TFC is a big question mark IMO. If this team is still lead by British management, then the support isn't going to grow much in GTA.

Interesting why you would think this. The fact that the team is under "British management" now certainly hasn't hurt TFC's growth up until this point. At BMO on gameday, you see a mosaic of all Toronto's ethnic communities. The fact that this team is uniting Torontonians behind one club should render what nationality our manager or GM is in future years meaningless.

What will determine TFC's long-term success is its on-field performance.

Rampage
08-08-2009, 01:17 PM
Wow, some crazy things being said about the CFL here. I'm guessing it's because you're in Argos territory and they're hardly all that popular in Toronto from what I gather.

I can tell you that there are plenty of immigrants who go to McMahon stadium or watch the games on TV and have become CFL fans. I understand that if you're from Toronto you have a different image of the CFL, but the CFL is hardly this minnow sport some of you are making it out to be.



well, you acknowledge this at least. Yeah, old folks and 'rednecks' make up a big part of the football audience in the rest of Canada as well, but a fair number of youth are interested as well, certainly more than are interested in soccer. Toronto is a different story entirely.


I'd say in T.O., the CFL is looked @ as 2nd rate. However the Argos average about 30,000, get good tv #'s, get substantial media attention.

TFC07
08-08-2009, 01:18 PM
doesn't mean squat. These surveys and studies are at the most a loose indication.

Let me ask you this: How many people do you see in GTA wearing hockey or Canadian football jerseys? I sure plenty of people wearing basketball and soccer jerseys. Can you say the same about football or hockey?

How many people do you see in GTA playing hockey and football compare to basketball and soccer?

Rampage
08-08-2009, 01:20 PM
doesn't mean squat. These surveys and studies are at the most a loose indication of trends, even proper studies are suspect IMO. Basketball ratings are weak, very few people really care at all in Canada, Toronto has the biggest fanbase and even that isn't so great. I doubt even Montreal or Vancouver could support a basketball franchise.


+1. I could see Canada winning something in soccer or baseball before basketball. I highly doubt Montreal could support and NBA team-especially going head-to-head with the Habs.

AdamZ
08-08-2009, 01:21 PM
Let me ask you this: How many people do you see in GTA wearing hockey or Canadian football jerseys? I sure plenty of people wearing basketball and soccer jerseys. Can you say the same about football or hockey?

How many people do you see in GTA playing hockey and football compare to basketball and soccer?

I only visit Toronto sporadically so I can't say I'm an authority on this, but considering I see plenty of Leafs jerseys here in off-season in Flames territory I really doubt there are more people out in Raptors jerseys than Leafs jerseys in Toronto. Maybe I'm wrong though, but still TV numbers don't lie for the Leafs and they do sell a lot and are extremely profitable I'm pretty sure, I really don't think there's any comparison to the Raptors. When the Raptors come close to drawing a million viewers on TV, then we'll talk.

TFC07
08-08-2009, 01:21 PM
Interesting why you would think this. The fact that the team is under "British management" now certainly hasn't hurt TFC's growth up until this point. At BMO on gameday, you see a mosaic of all Toronto's ethnic communities. The fact that this team is uniting Torontonians behind one club should render what nationality our manager or GM is in future years meaningless.

What will determine TFC's long-term success is its on-field performance.

LMAO! I try to convince my friends (all different races) come watch TFC games and all of them laughed at me.

I have been to TFC games in past, there's no way TFC fanbase is multicultural. Go to a Raptors game and come back say TFC fanbase is multicultural.

ilikemusic
08-08-2009, 01:22 PM
Im 24 and never met an Argo fan in my age group until about a month ago.

Growing up, I didnt know anybody who was a self described 'Argo fan'.

Leaf fan, Jays fan, Raptors fan, 'insert team name here' fan, but not once did I come across somebody who called themselves an Argo fan.

I personally view the CFL as a bit of a joke league, but I try not to hate on it. I just dont bother with it.

Rampage
08-08-2009, 01:23 PM
Let me ask you this: How many people do you see in GTA wearing hockey or Canadian football jerseys? I sure plenty of people wearing basketball and soccer jerseys. Can you say the same about football or hockey?

How many people do you see in GTA playing hockey and football compare to basketball and soccer?


Well football is too physical; therefore it's not for everybody. Also, no women play the sport. I live in Durham where hockey seems to be king. This area has always produced good hockey talent. I see Leafs jerseys all the time.

TFC07
08-08-2009, 01:25 PM
doesn't mean squat. These surveys and studies are at the most a loose indication of trends, even proper studies are suspect IMO. Basketball ratings are weak, very few people really care at all in Canada, Toronto has the biggest fanbase and even that isn't so great. I doubt even Montreal or Vancouver could support a basketball franchise. Correct me if I'm wrong, but baseball ratings and such are still bigger than basketball's, right? The Raptors may be a sustainable franchise, but don't give 'em too much credit. The Leafs are never going to be overtaken as the city's biggest and most supported franchise.

:facepalm:

By using your logic, soccer has weak fanbase in GTA based on their TFC TV ratings.

If the Leafs are not going to be overtaken, then why is MLSE worried about Maple Leafs fanbase in the future? Why is Maple Leafs trying so hard to target minorities to watch Maple Leafs?

Rampage
08-08-2009, 01:25 PM
Canadian basketball is run by bunch of idiots. (they're no different than CSA)...but however, Canada is starting to produce quality players.

Canada's Elite team steamrolling American competition

Link: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/11982755

Good read.



Good article, thanks I had no idea. Strange how it's an American website, not a Canadian one.

AdamZ
08-08-2009, 01:27 PM
Im 24 and never met an Argo fan in my age group until about a month ago.

Growing up, I didnt know anybody who was a self described 'Argo fan'.

Leaf fan, Jays fan, Raptors fan, 'insert team name here' fan, but not once did I come across somebody who called themselves an Argo fan.

I personally view the CFL as a bit of a joke league, but I try not to hate on it. I just dont bother with it.

but it's not really a joke league- it's the second most followed in the country and extremely popular in the prairie provinces. The talent level is not particularly high, sure, but objectively speaking it's a successful league and there seems to be an overall rise of interest in the CFL recently, although probably not in Toronto.

AdamZ
08-08-2009, 01:28 PM
I have been to TFC games in past, there's no way TFC fanbase is multicultural. .

is that a joke? seriously?

I have watched every game on TV and always see a multitude of ethnicities in the stands. It may be predominantly white, but it is still multicultural.

TFC07
08-08-2009, 01:28 PM
I only visit Toronto sporadically so I can't say I'm an authority on this, but considering I see plenty of Leafs jerseys here in off-season in Flames territory I really doubt there are more people out in Raptors jerseys than Leafs jerseys in Toronto. Maybe I'm wrong though, but still TV numbers don't lie for the Leafs and they do sell a lot and are extremely profitable I'm pretty sure, I really don't think there's any comparison to the Raptors. When the Raptors come close to drawing a million viewers on TV, then we'll talk.

I guess you haven't been to Toronto lately.

ilikemusic
08-08-2009, 01:30 PM
but it's not really a joke league- it's the second most followed in the country and extremely popular in the prairie provinces. The talent level is not particularly high, sure, but objectively speaking it's a successful league and there seems to be an overall rise of interest in the CFL recently, although probably not in Toronto.

Whats popular in the praries has probably a little less than zero influence on me.

Actually, it probably has a negative influence. If it's popular out west, there must be something wrong with it. :D

Maybe if the Argos werent such a laughing stock I would care, but even when they were winning Cups with Flutie and then with Allen, I still didnt really care.

Maybe its just a Toronto thing, but if we arent beating American teams, I dont really care.

TFC07
08-08-2009, 01:31 PM
is that a joke? seriously?

I have watched every game on TV and always see a multitude of ethnicities in the stands. It may be predominantly white, but it is still multicultural.

You should actually go to BMO field and then go to ACC for a Raptors game and see it yourself. TFC fanbase is no where multicultural as Raptors fanbase.

AdamZ
08-08-2009, 01:33 PM
You should actually go to BMO field and then go to ACC for a Raptors game and see it yourself. TFC fanbase is no where multicultural as Raptors fanbase.

I didn't say it was as multicultural as the Raptors fanbase. I said it most definitely IS multicultural, and that's not really something TFC need to worry about atm. I have no interest in going to the ACC for anything except a Flames game if I happen to be there at the time.


:facepalm:

By using your logic, soccer has weak fanbase in GTA based on their TFC TV ratings.

If the Leafs are not going to be overtaken, then why is MLSE worried about Maple Leafs fanbase in the future? Why is Maple Leafs trying so hard to target minorities to watch Maple Leafs?

Because they want growth, they don't want a drop in interest. That doesn't mean they're afraid the freakin' Raptors will become a bigger franchise than the Leafs.

These days you need to have some interest outside your city as well. Most Canadians couldn't give less of a sh-t about the Raptors or NBA, and there is no way in hell the Raptors are selling more merch than the Leafs or that their TV rights cost anything similar, or that they're making as much profit.

and yes, TFC have poor ratings. The fact that for more than one game only 30,000 or so outside the stadium watched a match (in the entire country, even less in GTA) is not a good thing to me. TFC are still a fringe sport, they have a good following for a soccer team, but that's about it. Compare it to the following any Championship or Premiership team have in England and you'll see the massive difference.

Let's see the size of the parades if the Leafs win the Stanley Cup vs. TFC winning the MLS Cup or the Raptors winning whatever the hell the NBA has.

mmmikey
08-08-2009, 01:34 PM
LMAO! I try to convince my friends (all different races) come watch TFC games and all of them laughed at me.

I have been to TFC games in past, there's no way TFC fanbase is multicultural. Go to a Raptors game and come back say TFC fanbase is multicultural.

are u sitting in some all english section im not aware of? i go and hear portugese, italian, spanish being spoken.. many ppl with latin origins, black, brown, lots of asians... just because there are still white ppl there it doesn't mean its not multicultural. there IS alot of white ppl in the city after all, especially the surrounding suburbs. especially those of european decent will be huge footie fans. if your friends will only go to games if the racial demographics are acceptable to them, then they are not the type of fans i would want to sit with.

Cashcleaner
08-08-2009, 01:37 PM
Much like the current healthcare debate going on in the US, this argument is full of misinformation and bias.

Firstly, the average attandence for CFL clubs is around 25,000-30,000 for regular season matches. Compare that to average MLS attendance numbers.

Secondly, the CFL grosses more overall revenue than MLS. If CFL is second-rate, what does that make MLS?

Thirdly, who in their right mind would claim that Argos fans are not as ethnically diverse as Toronto FC? From the games I've attended, I'd say both fanbases are equally multicultural.

Both sports are doing quite well here in Toronto. The leg-up that soccer has is that it's popularity is on the grow, especially given the fact that our urban areas here in Canada are filling up with immigrants from countries where soccer is the most popular sport - if not the only sport played to any great extent.

CretanBull
08-08-2009, 01:37 PM
I think that the trend that this survey points to is true, but the survey itself is flawed. A "soccer" (generic, essentially covering dozens of leagues) vs. "CFL" (specific league) is hardly fair. Something like "soccer" vs. "football" or "MLS" vs. "CFL" would be more fair.

TFC07
08-08-2009, 01:39 PM
Because they want growth, they don't want a drop in interest. That doesn't mean they're afraid the freakin' Raptors will become a bigger franchise than the Leafs.

Wrong!

Leaf fans jump off bandwagon: survey

MLSE survey shows losing seasons, ticket prices and cultural divides eroding Blue and White base

Link: http://www.thestar.com/Hockey/NHL/article/497899


As for your rest of comment, argument is about GTA support, not rest of Canada. Maple Leafs will always be more popular than any of Toronto sports teams in Canada, but their support in GTA is going down.

mmmikey
08-08-2009, 01:40 PM
I guess you haven't been to Toronto lately.

its easy to argue this way when the guy admits he isnt from toronto. ive grown up and lived in the GTA all my life. there is NOT more raptors stuff than leafs stuff. leafs are far and away the most supported team in the GTA. u also can't just put a restriction on the type of top. hockey jerseys are unbearably hot to wear 6 months out of the year, while a basketball jersey can be worn over a warmer top year round.

there is by far more leafs merchandise on display than raptors, with the exception of a few communities. it is natural though that there is a lot of support for bball now especially among younger generations. it is MUUCH easier to enter that sport and play, especially casually than the investment required in equipment, ice time etc for hockey.

soccer is getting teh same foothold as basketball did.. and indeed there is much more footie merchandise around the city now. the sport IS growing.

mmmikey
08-08-2009, 01:41 PM
I think that the trend that this survey points to is true, but the survey itself is flawed. A "soccer" (generic, essentially covering dozens of leagues) vs. "CFL" (specific league) is hardly fair. Something like "soccer" vs. "football" or "MLS" vs. "CFL" would be more fair.

agreed.. very encouraging but surveys need to be taken with a grain of salt. surveys are easily flawed.

Blizzard
08-08-2009, 01:51 PM
Only people who watch CFL games in GTA (I can't speak for rest of Canada) are old folks and rednecks. Don't be surprise in next 20 years to see Argos and Blue Jays leaving Toronto while Toronto Raptors become most supported team in GTA. Maple Leafs are going to lose a lot of support in GTA simply because city's demographic. TFC is a big question mark IMO. If this team is still lead by British management, then the support isn't going to grow much in GTA.

Regarding the CFL in Toronto, your comments just aren't true. I know a number of U-Sector guys that go to see the Argos and they are neither old nor red necks.

If you look at an Argos crowd at the dome, there is a huge variety to the demographic.

... and for the most part, CFL still outdraws NFL on southern Ontario television.

Ya, the CFL probably is pretty much maxed out apart from adding a Quebec City and east coast team somewhere down the road but the league is the most financially healthy in its history.

The biggest concern regarding all grid-iron football whether it be CFL, NFL or indoor is the long term health of the players.

Bob McKeown of CBC's "Fifth Estate" (who played six seasons at centre for the Ottawa Rough Riders) produced this report on the dangers of the heavy duty full contact sports such as football. It is definitely cause for concern. This is the real threat to the future of football.

http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2008-2009/head_games/
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/2008-2009/head_games/video.html

flatpicker
08-08-2009, 01:58 PM
Wrong!

Leaf fans jump off bandwagon: survey

MLSE survey shows losing seasons, ticket prices and cultural divides eroding Blue and White base

Link: http://www.thestar.com/Hockey/NHL/article/497899



just took a look at that article...

As a Leaf fan, it's encouraging that they recognise the importance of winning to maintain its fanbase.

I was particularly surprised by the last line:
"In addition, the team will use a lottery to sell the 500 or so tickets per game that aren't held by season ticket holders, in an attempt to keep them out of the hands of scalpers."

Only 500 non-STH tix?

sheesh!

They need to increase that number so that more non-STH's can take in games.

I'm glad they took that approach with TFC by keeping almost 5000 non-STH seats.

mr k
08-08-2009, 03:03 PM
agree with Cashcleaner, people in Toronto are sadly misinformed about the strength of the CFL. Some guy at my work about a month ago thought avg CFL attendance was only 5k.

But CFL avg attendance in 08 was 29k - which makes it 7th highest in the world. Just beats out la Liga, Japanese baseball & Serie A. Yes, it isn't an apples to apples comparison but most guys in TO wouldn't even think CFL is at this level.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sports_league_attendances

CFL tv ratings are second only to hockey. And they have been increasing over the past 10 years- kudos have to go to TSN. And I have to say their production standards in 09 have further improved. Jays ratings have been slipping over the past decade & Raptors are still in the 100-200k range.

Just look at last weekend ratings - top spot went to Tocats/Lions at over
500k
http://thestar.blogs.com/sportsmedia/2009/08/here-are-the-top-english-language-sports-ratings-from-the-holiday-weekend-as-always-courtesey-of-the-folks-and-machines-at-b.html

CFL also beats NFL tv ratings in terms of regular reason games. NFL gets the upper hand once they go beyond wild card weekend. But it becomes basically even with Super Bowl vs Grey Cup.

Carts
08-08-2009, 03:20 PM
TSN gets 400,000 + for a regular CFL game...

Friday night's are between 500,000-600,000...

Playoffs flirt with or top (based on the market or how good the game is) 1,000,000...

Grey Cup pulls in over 3,000,000....

Although there is only 4-games a week, the CFL per-game out-draws the Blue Jays (however when the Jays are in contention, that is not the case, when in contention the Jays see ratings of 700,000-800,00)...

Becuase its not the big thing in Toronto, people in Toronto have no idea how popular, and even more so how much of strong TV audience, the CFL is across the country...

Carts...

Beach_Red
08-08-2009, 07:57 PM
TSN gets 400,000 + for a regular CFL game...

Friday night's are between 500,000-600,000...

Playoffs flirt with or top (based on the market or how good the game is) 1,000,000...

Grey Cup pulls in over 3,000,000....

Although there is only 4-games a week, the CFL per-game out-draws the Blue Jays (however when the Jays are in contention, that is not the case, when in contention the Jays see ratings of 700,000-800,00)...

Becuase its not the big thing in Toronto, people in Toronto have no idea how popular, and even more so how much of strong TV audience, the CFL is across the country...

Carts...

Yes, like I said, I never meant to bash the CFL. I do think these kinds of numbers for soccer are possible someday.

I also wonder if these kinds of TV ratings and attendance could be achieved for an all-Canadian soccer league before an American league could do it?

The success of the CFL right next door to the NFL proves that Canadian sports fans will support their own league, even if it isn't the "best" in the world.

Blizzard
08-09-2009, 12:06 AM
Yes, like I said, I never meant to bash the CFL. I do think these kinds of numbers for soccer are possible someday.

I also wonder if these kinds of TV ratings and attendance could be achieved for an all-Canadian soccer league before an American league could do it?

The success of the CFL right next door to the NFL proves that Canadian sports fans will support their own league, even if it isn't the "best" in the world.

Your optimism is commendable. I don't see it but I'm happy to be proven wrong. It's taken Canadian Football about a hundred years to get to this stage.

Roogsy
08-09-2009, 12:19 AM
What confuses me is that the Argos get 400k viewership for a game, but there are plenty of seats available at the stadium! :eek: Why don't more of these viewers turn off the TV and simply head down to the stadium? I mean...tickets to an Argos game is very reasonable. I don't know what that says about the popularity of the CFL despite it's viewership numbers.

The CFL to me is neither a joke league nor a top league. It's somewhere in the middle. But there is no denying that it's a business that has peaked and will not experience any growth.

Blizzard
08-09-2009, 12:22 AM
What confuses me is that the Argos get 400k viewership for a game, but there are plenty of seats available at the stadium! :eek: Why don't more of these viewers turn off the TV and simply head down to the stadium? I mean...tickets to an Argos game is very reasonable. I don't know what that says about the popularity of the CFL despite it's viewership numbers.

The CFL to me is neither a joke league nor a top league. It's somewhere in the middle. But there is no denying that it's a business that has peaked and will not experience any growth.

I think that depends on the economy. In terms of television ratings, while obviously they will fluctuate, the numbers make it an in-demand television commodity for sponsors so when the economy bounces back in the months to come, it's entirely possible that television revenues will rise.

In the last ten years, the CFL has tripled it's revenue in the main due to marketing and sponsorships.

CretanBull
08-09-2009, 12:44 AM
I don't say this to take anything away from the CFL, but I think they owe a lot to TSN and how much that network promotes their product. If TSN devoted as much time to the MLS (or anything for that matter) we'd see TFC games getting 400k viewers too. I think having Vancouver - and hopefully Montreal - in the league will force the network's hand as far as covering the league is concerned.

We've had TFC games get 100k viewers for games that have had zero hype, zero promotion, God-awefull production values etc. People show up at TFC games despite the shitty television coverage that the team gets.

On TSN, the CFL gets daily coverage and league updates Mon-Fri on Sports Desk, a half hour show devoted to the league, a half hour pre-game show and not stop promotion and commercials the entire week before a televised game.

I don't begrudged the CFL anything, but it would be nice if one of the networks would be willing to spread the love.

Roogsy
08-09-2009, 01:27 AM
I think that depends on the economy. In terms of television ratings, while obviously they will fluctuate, the numbers make it an in-demand television commodity for sponsors so when the economy bounces back in the months to come, it's entirely possible that television revenues will rise.

In the last ten years, the CFL has tripled it's revenue in the main due to marketing and sponsorships.

I don't think it has anything to do with the economy. When the economy was better, the numbers weren't that different.

If TFC can draw 20,000+ and only have 100,000+ viewership, shouldn't the Argos be getting at least 40,000+ if not more, with viewership of 400,000?

Roogsy
08-09-2009, 01:28 AM
I don't say this to take anything away from the CFL, but I think they owe a lot to TSN and how much that network promotes their product. If TSN devoted as much time to the MLS (or anything for that matter) we'd see TFC games getting 400k viewers too. I think having Vancouver - and hopefully Montreal - in the league will force the network's hand as far as covering the league is concerned.

We've had TFC games get 100k viewers for games that have had zero hype, zero promotion, God-awefull production values etc. People show up at TFC games despite the shitty television coverage that the team gets.

On TSN, the CFL gets daily coverage and league updates Mon-Fri on Sports Desk, a half hour show devoted to the league, a half hour pre-game show and not stop promotion and commercials the entire week before a televised game.

I don't begrudged the CFL anything, but it would be nice if one of the networks would be willing to spread the love.

Agreed!
:scarf:

kodiakTFC
08-09-2009, 02:48 AM
I don't think it has anything to do with the economy. When the economy was better, the numbers weren't that different.

If TFC can draw 20,000+ and only have 100,000+ viewership, shouldn't the Argos be getting at least 40,000+ if not more, with viewership of 400,000?

TFC only gets 100,000 when its a saturday afternoon game on CBC. Otherwise we are usually around 20-30k region.

redcard
08-09-2009, 06:47 AM
Yeah, but however, there was a survey done recently saying basketball is most supported sport in teenage age group (future of our society) in GTA.

is there even a youth basketball system in Canada, compared to hockey and soccer?

Baseball is on a decline as well due to the lack of these leagues...the do exist but not in numbers as soccer and hockey...especially in T.O.

JonO
08-09-2009, 08:07 AM
agreed.. very encouraging but surveys need to be taken with a grain of salt. surveys are easily flawed.
Statistics can be used to prove anything.... and I've got the statistics to prove it! :D

Beach_Red
08-09-2009, 09:37 AM
I don't say this to take anything away from the CFL, but I think they owe a lot to TSN and how much that network promotes their product. If TSN devoted as much time to the MLS (or anything for that matter) we'd see TFC games getting 400k viewers too. I think having Vancouver - and hopefully Montreal - in the league will force the network's hand as far as covering the league is concerned.

We've had TFC games get 100k viewers for games that have had zero hype, zero promotion, God-awefull production values etc. People show up at TFC games despite the shitty television coverage that the team gets.

On TSN, the CFL gets daily coverage and league updates Mon-Fri on Sports Desk, a half hour show devoted to the league, a half hour pre-game show and not stop promotion and commercials the entire week before a televised game.

I don't begrudged the CFL anything, but it would be nice if one of the networks would be willing to spread the love.

This is an excellent point. For years the CFL handled its TV poorly - they had local black outs, no regularly scheduled gams and many people feel they "lost a generation of fans," and then TSN came along and really did a great job. Just knowing there's always a game on Friday nights made a big difference and the exposure given to the Grey Cup has been great.

And I think a good Canadian sports network could do the same with soccer - that's why I think a Canadian league would do better than a few Canadian teams in MLS. It's a lot to expect a national network (and Canadian sponsors) to get behind a couple of teams in an American league. And we see what a poor job the American networks do covering Canadian teams.

Canada is different from the US - baseball is not our "pasttime" and doesn't dominate our summers. There's a real opening here.

TFC07
08-09-2009, 10:03 AM
is there even a youth basketball system in Canada, compared to hockey and soccer?

Baseball is on a decline as well due to the lack of these leagues...the do exist but not in numbers as soccer and hockey...especially in T.O.

Yes there is, and it is better than Canadian soccer system.

Recent success:

Canada's Elite team steamrolling American competition

Link: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/11982755

CANADIAN U-17 BASKETBALL CLUB WINS TOP EUROPEAN TOURNAMENT


MILAN, Italy - Canada’s Hoop Factory Elite team became the first non-European team to win the Victor Rho Milan International Basketball Tournament by defeating Sabonis Kaunas of Lithuania 93-86 on Sunday in front of a sellout crowd.

Read more here: http://www.basketball.ca/en/hm/inside.php?sid=1&id=3007

mighty_torontofc_2008
08-09-2009, 10:19 AM
a canadian league is just not going to happen...what might happen is cities like WInnipeg, Victoria, Hamilton,Quebac City might become involved in the USL div 1
although that doesnt look good as i really cant see the USL being around long once
Vancouver leaves and if Montreal follows . the CFL ?/ like who gives a F**K about that league when NFL football is close to Toronto via Buffalo and Detroit...Lets hope Toronto gets a NFL team asap.

Beach_Red
08-09-2009, 11:12 AM
It's long term thinking, I guess, but looking at other sports, what has worked better for Canada - having a minority of teams in an American league like the NHL, or having our own league like the CFL?

Dirk Diggler
08-09-2009, 11:37 AM
is there even a youth basketball system in Canada, compared to hockey and soccer?

Baseball is on a decline as well due to the lack of these leagues...the do exist but not in numbers as soccer and hockey...especially in T.O.

Baseball maybe on a decline but we are churning out more quality players who are making it to the major leagues than ever before. It is the only sport in which we are seeing a marked improvement. With all the talk of basketball constantly becoming more and more popular, we only have, I think, 3 Canadians in the NBA ... two of whom are above 30.

Dirk Diggler
08-09-2009, 11:39 AM
It's long term thinking, I guess, but looking at other sports, what has worked better for Canada - having a minority of teams in an American league like the NHL, or having our own league like the CFL?

What I absolutely dislike about the CFL is that with all this talk of "This is Our League" and other such patriotic crap, the CFL teams still do not employ any Canadians in skilled positions on the field. I don't think there is a single starting QB or starting RB who is Canadian in the CFL. "Canada's league" is essentially a backup league for American players who are not good enough for the NFL.

SoccMan
08-09-2009, 11:40 AM
The CFL has so much history on it's side. The CFL is the second best league in the world. The media coverage is exstensive compared to the MLS. Even here in Toronto the Argos get so much more coverage then TFC it is not even close. TFC has more people come to games then the Argos, if you combine the overall attendance of all the home games,however, in term of tv ratings the Argos are way ahead of TFC it's not even close. I still believe TFC deserves more media coverage based on the attendance they get at the stadium. You can almost get an article about the Argos every day,however, you can go days on in without anything about TFC. There are still many in the media that love to hate soccer and TFC,however, I can't find to many people in the media that have a hate on for the Argos and CFL football. Soccer in terms of participation at youth level expecialy is huge,however, youth football participation is very,very low compared to soccer. I do believe if TFC received the same amount of media coverage that the Argos get you would see TV ratings increase substantialy, maybe not like Argo numbers but they would get respectable numbers. We need more Canadian MLS teams and we need the media to step it up in order for the TV numbers to increase.

SilverSamurai
08-09-2009, 11:50 AM
Not really surprised by this to be honest.
I can see soccer being more popular overall because of the various leagues and the growing immigrant population.
I wouldn't call the CFL a minor league though and I'm by no means a fan of the sport.

But to say that the CFL has a more "international" audience then MLS, specifically TFC is just crazy talk. TFC brings out people from everywhere. Just because you don't see many "minorities" doesn't mean that all minorities are visible.

FWIW, I don't want the Argo's at BMO, but I also wouldn't want the league to fold. On a side note, why hasn't the league set up a team in Quebec City or the martimes? Not like they have any other leagues out there with which to compete with.
I think a team in Halifax would do well, although Moncton is more "central" in terms of location.
Anyways, I think the CFL has pretty much topped out, and futbol has no where to go but up.

SilverSamurai
08-09-2009, 11:54 AM
1 more thing. As for the attendance, I don't really buy into that much since their are only what 5-6 home games a season? Whatever the # is, it's a LOT lower than pretty much any of the other major sports. Obviously it's easier to fill your stadium 7-10 times, then 15-20times.

tfcleeds
08-09-2009, 12:06 PM
The CFL has so much history on it's side. The CFL is the second best league in the world. The media coverage is exstensive compared to the MLS. Even here in Toronto the Argos get so much more coverage then TFC it is not even close. TFC has more people come to games then the Argos, if you combine the overall attendance of all the home games,however, in term of tv ratings the Argos are way ahead of TFC it's not even close. I still believe TFC deserves more media coverage based on the attendance they get at the stadium. You can almost get an article about the Argos every day,however, you can go days on in without anything about TFC. There are still many in the media that love to hate soccer and TFC,however, I can't find to many people in the media that have a hate on for the Argos and CFL football. Soccer in terms of participation at youth level expecialy is huge,however, youth football participation is very,very low compared to soccer. I do believe if TFC received the same amount of media coverage that the Argos get you would see TV ratings increase substantialy, maybe not like Argo numbers but they would get respectable numbers. We need more Canadian MLS teams and we need the media to step it up in order for the TV numbers to increase.

I also find it odd that there seems to be a disproportionate amount of coverage of the Argos in the local media, given the amount of people in the GTA who actually follow the team closely. Fact is, Argos were tremendously popular in the 70s and 80s, but nowadays, that just isn't the case. The average person in Toronto would not likely be able to name you five players on the Argos roster. You don't hear people talking about the Argos around the water cooler at work. Yet, every day in the Star and Sun you get your standard full page or two on the team, yet TFC has been known to get no print coverage on matchdays on certain occasions(I'm looking at you Sun).

Obviously, there are people who follow the Argos, enough to fill the Rogers Centre with 30,000 people every other week, and thus, there is demand for Argos coverage to some degree. But not to the extent that the local newsrags would have you believe. I'm just not seeing it. I imagine this will change when the old guard in the local sports media eventually move on.

Beach_Red
08-09-2009, 01:58 PM
Baseball maybe on a decline but we are churning out more quality players who are making it to the major leagues than ever before. It is the only sport in which we are seeing a marked improvement. With all the talk of basketball constantly becoming more and more popular, we only have, I think, 3 Canadians in the NBA ... two of whom are above 30.


I wonder how much this has to do with baseball's declining popularity in Latin America?

I was suprised to hear the announcers say during the PRI game that the soccer stadium was originally built as a baseball park. Did they build a new baseball park, or just convert that one? Are there as many Puerto Rican kids playing baseball now as twenty years ago? What about soccer?

gtaguy
08-09-2009, 04:26 PM
Hockey will never die in Canada or for that matter Toronto and the whole reason the fan support is not what it used to be is becuase of thier track record. The leafs for far to many years have raped the fans in every possible way, have marketed this club to death but if the results aren't there, if no extended playoffs happen a decline is the inevitable in any market.
Our good ol boys in blue do not have to fear our boys in red. They are two different sports you have your winter and your summer season.. naturally each one plays in that specific time the sport is naturally played in..
But as for those summer season sports , canadian football, baseball better watch out becuase TFC is definetely encroaching on thier territory and fast .. only 3 seasons and we are on our way to stealing market share and revenue off them..

for me no matter what and i have always said it its "hockey in the winter and Soccer in the summer". we as canadians have got it good now!!

Bars92
08-09-2009, 05:38 PM
Given the size of Toronto, the Argos attendance is miniscule and from an attendance standpoint TFC is much more successful than the Argos when you add up total attendance. In late 70's/ early 80's the Argos used to get 40k until everyone realised the NFL is better. TSN and the media have to prop up the Argos for the benefit of the league, because without a team in Toronto the CFL is in trouble.I think in Montreal and Vancouver, soccer will surpass or at least rival the CFL. But I think in the praries, the CFL will always be more popular.

Blizzard
08-09-2009, 06:05 PM
I don't think it has anything to do with the economy. When the economy was better, the numbers weren't that different.

If TFC can draw 20,000+ and only have 100,000+ viewership, shouldn't the Argos be getting at least 40,000+ if not more, with viewership of 400,000?

I had meant to focus on general revenue. In that sense, the economy absolutely makes a difference as there is less money being spent on marketing by business.

The league has tripled it's general revenue over the past decade but I'd be shocked if they hadn't stalled a bit now due to the economy. I would not at all be surprised to learn that TFC has suffered accordingly as well.

I don't think you can do a direct comparison in terms of viewership and attendance in that way.

The 400k type numbers that the CFL draws are cross-country with the Argos playing other Canadian teams. TSN has, for all intents and purposes, two home games in one.

TFC draws the majority of its numbers from Ontario with no second Canadian side to boost the numbers, not yet anyway and I don't think we can count the CCL as it is so unknown.

The 30k the Argos have been drawing is probably about right.

Shakes McQueen
08-09-2009, 08:54 PM
Much like the current healthcare debate going on in the US, this argument is full of misinformation and bias.

Firstly, the average attandence for CFL clubs is around 25,000-30,000 for regular season matches. Compare that to average MLS attendance numbers.

Secondly, the CFL grosses more overall revenue than MLS. If CFL is second-rate, what does that make MLS?

Thirdly, who in their right mind would claim that Argos fans are not as ethnically diverse as Toronto FC? From the games I've attended, I'd say both fanbases are equally multicultural.

Both sports are doing quite well here in Toronto. The leg-up that soccer has is that it's popularity is on the grow, especially given the fact that our urban areas here in Canada are filling up with immigrants from countries where soccer is the most popular sport - if not the only sport played to any great extent.

This misconception that soccer is "multicultural", whereas other sports are not, is pretty funny.

Major League Baseball is filled with players from Japan, Cuba, Puerto Rico, etc. etc. etc.

The NBA has players from Spain, Italy, Africa, America, China, etc. etc. etc.

At any rate, thansk for injecting soem actual hard facts into this Cash. Newspaper "surveys" are nice, but they are hardly religion.

- Scott

mighty_torontofc_2008
08-09-2009, 09:02 PM
The CFL has so much history on it's side. The CFL is the second best league in the world. The media coverage is exstensive compared to the MLS. Even here in Toronto the Argos get so much more coverage then TFC it is not even close. TFC has more people come to games then the Argos, if you combine the overall attendance of all the home games,however, in term of tv ratings the Argos are way ahead of TFC it's not even close. I still believe TFC deserves more media coverage based on the attendance they get at the stadium. You can almost get an article about the Argos every day,however, you can go days on in without anything about TFC. There are still many in the media that love to hate soccer and TFC,however, I can't find to many people in the media that have a hate on for the Argos and CFL football. Soccer in terms of participation at youth level expecialy is huge,however, youth football participation is very,very low compared to soccer. I do believe if TFC received the same amount of media coverage that the Argos get you would see TV ratings increase substantialy, maybe not like Argo numbers but they would get respectable numbers. We need more Canadian MLS teams and we need the media to step it up in order for the TV numbers to increase.


The CFL is not as good as NCAA talent wise, attendance wise, ratings wise so its actually the 3rd best gridiron league out of 3..other words last.
People only follow the argos as they know real girdiron football ( NFL) will likely never come to Toronto as that league prefers big time cities to play in. TFC will get their ratings in time, they are the new kids on the block and will take time.

TFC07
08-09-2009, 09:07 PM
Hockey will never die in Canada or for that matter Toronto and the whole reason the fan support is not what it used to be is becuase of thier track record. The leafs for far to many years have raped the fans in every possible way, have marketed this club to death but if the results aren't there, if no extended playoffs happen a decline is the inevitable in any market.
Our good ol boys in blue do not have to fear our boys in red. They are two different sports you have your winter and your summer season.. naturally each one plays in that specific time the sport is naturally played in..
But as for those summer season sports , canadian football, baseball better watch out becuase TFC is definetely encroaching on thier territory and fast .. only 3 seasons and we are on our way to stealing market share and revenue off them..

for me no matter what and i have always said it its "hockey in the winter and Soccer in the summer". we as canadians have got it good now!!

You should read this article: Toronto Sun: Hockey is dying in Toronto (http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/michele_mandel/2008/10/27/7216281-sun.html)

Cashcleaner
08-09-2009, 11:00 PM
This misconception that soccer is "multicultural", whereas other sports are not, is pretty funny.

Major League Baseball is filled with players from Japan, Cuba, Puerto Rico, etc. etc. etc.

The NBA has players from Spain, Italy, Africa, America, China, etc. etc. etc.

At any rate, thanks for injecting some actual hard facts into this Cash. Newspaper "surveys" are nice, but they are hardly religion.

- Scott

Yeah, but in this argument we're specifically talking about Canadian football and soccer. But for sure basketball and baseball cross international boundaries. Thinking about it, I'd say basketball is likely the second-most professionally played sport in the world next to soccer; judging by how the Europeans are embracing it.

Whoop
08-09-2009, 11:09 PM
I don't say this to take anything away from the CFL, but I think they owe a lot to TSN and how much that network promotes their product. If TSN devoted as much time to the MLS (or anything for that matter) we'd see TFC games getting 400k viewers too. I think having Vancouver - and hopefully Montreal - in the league will force the network's hand as far as covering the league is concerned.

We've had TFC games get 100k viewers for games that have had zero hype, zero promotion, God-awefull production values etc. People show up at TFC games despite the shitty television coverage that the team gets.

On TSN, the CFL gets daily coverage and league updates Mon-Fri on Sports Desk, a half hour show devoted to the league, a half hour pre-game show and not stop promotion and commercials the entire week before a televised game.

I don't begrudged the CFL anything, but it would be nice if one of the networks would be willing to spread the love.

But TSN doesn't hold the rights for TFC games, so why promote something that might take viewers away from their channel?

Sportsnet is the one that should be promoting TFC games.

Whoop
08-09-2009, 11:13 PM
yet TFC has been known to get no print coverage on matchdays on certain occasions(I'm looking at you Sun).



The Sun has gone through huge changes. They're hemorraging money. Used to have the best sports section in the city.

I could see them folding within the next 2 years.

Whoop
08-09-2009, 11:14 PM
You should read this article: Toronto Sun: Hockey is dying in Toronto (http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/michele_mandel/2008/10/27/7216281-sun.html)

It's dying in the Metro Toronto, but it's still pretty strong in the suburbs of Toronto.

CretanBull
08-10-2009, 01:08 AM
But TSN doesn't hold the rights for TFC games, so why promote something that might take viewers away from their channel?

Sportsnet is the one that should be promoting TFC games.

CFL games are on TSN....

Whoop
08-10-2009, 01:35 AM
Yes, but Sportsnet doesn't whore out the CFL. And you don't see them promoting CFL games. And while the CFL might not mean much to most Torontonians, it's still has teams from the West coast to Quebec, so it still has more of impact nationally than TFC.

The rights holders to MLS in Canada should be the ones promoting the league. Problem is there is only TFC at the moment.

When Vancouver joins the league, the numbers will increase and if Montreal is lucky enough to join MLS, then the numbers will improve once again.

CretanBull
08-10-2009, 02:14 AM
^ Sorry, I was confused by your earlier post (I blame it on the beer!). My point wasn't that TSN itself should promote TFC, only that *if* a company like them devoted the amount of time to promoting the MLS the way TSN promotes the CFL I'm confident that the MLS could get CFL TV ratings. I agree 100% that when Vancouver joins, and hopefully Montreal, then there will be more incentive for a national broadcaster to promote the MLS.

AdamZ
08-10-2009, 02:36 AM
I don't think it has anything to do with the economy. When the economy was better, the numbers weren't that different.

If TFC can draw 20,000+ and only have 100,000+ viewership, shouldn't the Argos be getting at least 40,000+ if not more, with viewership of 400,000?

the Argos play, you know, other teams. Other teams from cities with, I gather, far bigger CFL fanbases. Plus the number of pubs and bars playing the games, etc. etc.

Roogsy
08-10-2009, 10:11 AM
the Argos play, you know, other teams. Other teams from cities with, I gather, far bigger CFL fanbases. Plus the number of pubs and bars playing the games, etc. etc.

The ratios still apply then. Unless the TV numbers in Toronto are absolutely horrible for the CFL, they are still drawing 200k, 250k in viewers no? (That is if these other cities are pulling in those numbers as well....are you telling me Saskatchewan can do that? That's a surprise to me.) So my question still stands.

greatwhitenorf
08-11-2009, 01:17 AM
The Sun has gone through huge changes. They're hemorraging money. Used to have the best sports section in the city.

I could see them folding within the next 2 years.


So, SunMedia has built up a national chain of newspapers, created their own national news agency and have sufficient resources to allow them to withdraw from the money-sapping cost of being a Canadian Press member and you thnk they're going to pack in their flagship paper in Canada's most important market.

Do give your head a shake. Love the sound the pea makes rattlin' around.
They're already angling to bring new people on board for next summer.

Nuffin' spells healf loike what job interviews does. And, by now, if you ain't had one, you loikely ain't gittin' one.

They must be a lot stouter than anyone realized if they can survive the presence of Garf Wheedler within their staff. He's poor to OK in print, but on TV? Atrociously bad. Unwatchable, even unlistenable.

Which makes him intolerable and expendable.

And their sports sections on Saturday, Sunday and Monday are rarely matched by what the other broadsheets are attempting to produce. Especialy the Star, with easily the weakest and least interestng sports section between Ottawa and Winnipeg.

Carts
08-11-2009, 08:28 AM
I don't say this to take anything away from the CFL, but I think they owe a lot to TSN and how much that network promotes their product. If TSN devoted as much time to the MLS (or anything for that matter) we'd see TFC games getting 400k viewers too. I think having Vancouver - and hopefully Montreal - in the league will force the network's hand as far as covering the league is concerned.

We've had TFC games get 100k viewers for games that have had zero hype, zero promotion, God-awefull production values etc. People show up at TFC games despite the shitty television coverage that the team gets.

On TSN, the CFL gets daily coverage and league updates Mon-Fri on Sports Desk, a half hour show devoted to the league, a half hour pre-game show and not stop promotion and commercials the entire week before a televised game.

I don't begrudged the CFL anything, but it would be nice if one of the networks would be willing to spread the love.

You are 100% correct...

Along the same lines is the World Junior Championship - most people don't realise that every other country hardly notices this event exists... Even in hockey countries like Sweden, Finland, there is little interest...

If TSN became the Toronto / Vancouver / and the MLS Canadian broadcaster, they would promote it to high-nines, and bring in huge audiences compared to what they have now - that's why I wonder why people "don't want" TSN to get the rights...

People may have a beef with TSN b/c of their coverage of soccer in the past, and their 'hockey first always' attitute - but if you want something in Canadian sports to be taken seriously, you NEED TSN on board 100%...

Carts...

Carts
08-11-2009, 08:40 AM
What confuses me is that the Argos get 400k viewership for a game, but there are plenty of seats available at the stadium! :eek: Why don't more of these viewers turn off the TV and simply head down to the stadium? I mean...tickets to an Argos game is very reasonable. I don't know what that says about the popularity of the CFL despite it's viewership numbers.

The CFL to me is neither a joke league nor a top league. It's somewhere in the middle. But there is no denying that it's a business that has peaked and will not experience any growth.

The Argos TV number to tickets is simply that most of the TV audience comes from outside the GTA, and Ontario... CFL fans in Saskatchewan, Alberta etc will watch any CFL - not just their home market. When the Argos are in contention, or a playoff game - that 400,000 usually doubles, and the extra audience is almost all from the Toronto area...

As for growth in the CFL, the numbers are proving you incorrect. In the last 5-years alone, TV audience continues to grow, advertising money continues to grow, interest in the league continues to grow (as competing networks are now trying to get the TV contract), eventually it will level out - but the CFL is in excellent shape, and getting better every year (in terns of finances etc)...

I'm no huge CFL fan or anything (I'll throw the Argos on if there nothings else), but the league is proving to be a money making operation, because of two things; they didn't try to be the NFL (aka too big), and they have TSN pumping their tires and making the broadcasts top quality in Canada...

I beleive Don Garber is trying to grow the MLS in similar fashion. Not too big too fast, and his goal of getting ESPN on board (although they don't give it the huge push they need) has worked to put it on the map. It might be a "small town" on the map, but it is on the sporting map in the states with ESPN having the game of the week, and ABC broadcasting the final on their main network...

Yes its true, bowling will get higher ratings than an MLS game (and a NHL game too for that matter), but you don't see bowling highlights on SportsCentre etc...

Growth takes time. The CFL is over 100 years old. For a time, people forget it was bigger money than the NFL (in the 60's), then NFL TV juggernaut took over (that being LOCAL TV and the ability to broadcast to certain markets). The CFL hit ROCK BOTTOM when teams would fold and interest died. Then, just like the NFL in the states, it was CABLE TELEVISION that took over and gave them life (TSN), and the growth has been basically constant since then (1984)...

Carts...

Beach_Red
08-11-2009, 10:28 AM
You are 100% correct...

Along the same lines is the World Junior Championship - most people don't realise that every other country hardly notices this event exists... Even in hockey countries like Sweden, Finland, there is little interest...

If TSN became the Toronto / Vancouver / and the MLS Canadian broadcaster, they would promote it to high-nines, and bring in huge audiences compared to what they have now - that's why I wonder why people "don't want" TSN to get the rights...

People may have a beef with TSN b/c of their coverage of soccer in the past, and their 'hockey first always' attitute - but if you want something in Canadian sports to be taken seriously, you NEED TSN on board 100%...

Carts...

You're right. But I wonder if one of the things stopping full-out TSN-like coverage is that "Toronto-Vancouver-MLS" MLS will always be an American league. And it's not like hockey where there is a big Canadian presence in the league.

Right now there's no choice for Toronto-Vancouver-Montral but to join MLS. Someday, though, they may actually break away and join an all-Canadian league with TSN coming on board as the broadcaster and they could do for it what they did for the CFL. Remember, the CFL was on life-support until TSN got behind it.

jloome
08-11-2009, 11:31 AM
This misconception that soccer is "multicultural", whereas other sports are not, is pretty funny.

Major League Baseball is filled with players from Japan, Cuba, Puerto Rico, etc. etc. etc.

The NBA has players from Spain, Italy, Africa, America, China, etc. etc. etc.

At any rate, thansk for injecting soem actual hard facts into this Cash. Newspaper "surveys" are nice, but they are hardly religion.

- Scott

How about "more" multicultural? Almost no one in Europe, which is collectively fairly populous, plays baseball. Very few (Spain, Italy, maybe Greece) have competitive basketball leagues.

The players may be multicultural, but the sports aren't particulary. Baseball has about a dozen nations that take it seriously, and of those, only four have top-level leagues. Basketball's the same.

Belfast_Boy
08-11-2009, 11:49 AM
How about "more" multicultural? Almost no one in Europe, which is collectively fairly populous, plays baseball. Very few (Spain, Italy, maybe Greece) have competitive basketball leagues.

The players may be multicultural, but the sports aren't particulary. Baseball has about a dozen nations that take it seriously, and of those, only four have top-level leagues. Basketball's the same.

I agree, can't think of any Irish basketball players!
think it was durning the last world cup that I heard this: There's more countries that apply to be in the World Cup than belong to the United Nations.

Roogsy
08-11-2009, 12:36 PM
So, SunMedia has built up a national chain of newspapers, created their own national news agency and have sufficient resources to allow them to withdraw from the money-sapping cost of being a Canadian Press member and you thnk they're going to pack in their flagship paper in Canada's most important market.

Do give your head a shake. Love the sound the pea makes rattlin' around.
They're already angling to bring new people on board for next summer.

I don't claim to know the status of the Sun's financials (or Quebecor who owns the Sun) but the Newspaper industry is dying. All you have to do is look at the Chicago Sun-Times or the New York Times, some of the largest and most legendary newspapers in the world to see how they have been decimated by the electronic age. Whether the Sun system has 1 paper or 50, they are still vulnerable to the same economic conditions that other print media organizations are facing. To be honest, if the Sun papers are in the black would surprise me.


And their sports sections on Saturday, Sunday and Monday are rarely matched by what the other broadsheets are attempting to produce. Especialy the Star, with easily the weakest and least interestng sports section between Ottawa and Winnipeg.

The problem is that the comparison with the Star is probably not appropriate. The Star decided long before the internet was an issue to diversify it's media holdings. While I am not sure what their financial status is either, I would guess it's in a better position than the Suns.

Ivan
08-11-2009, 04:57 PM
Whats popular in the praries has probably a little less than zero influence on me.

Actually, it probably has a negative influence. If it's popular out west, there must be something wrong with it. :D

Maybe if the Argos werent such a laughing stock I would care, but even when they were winning Cups with Flutie and then with Allen, I still didnt really care.

Maybe its just a Toronto thing, but if we arent beating American teams, I dont really care.

This sums up the thoughts of a lot of Toronto sports fans. Canada gave the US "rugby football" (first game was McGill and Harvard) and the organized Canadian football game is older. The NFL has better athletes and better marketing but the CFL is a league and sport unto itself. If you like football, why not watch CFL and NFL? Because the CFL is not the best pro league in North America.

I wonder what would happen if the NHL split into Canadian and US leagues? Like, all the struggling US teams died until a solid 10 were left but the Canadian teams left to their form their own league and added 4 or 5 teams. The Canadian league would probably have the best talent in the world and sold-out stadiums, could likely be stronger than the US league, but would Leaf fans be less enthusiastic to be part of a Canadian league if the Canadian league wasn't clearly better than the US one?

The CSL plugs along for years with less than 1,000 fans per game without growing. The quality is not that bad -- last year's champs the Serbian White Eagles had a scrimmage with TFC a few weeks ago -- but the league's not widely supported and has no profile. Look at the support for the Lynx versus TFC. If the TFC were a USL team, they wouldn't have anything close to the support the Whitecaps and Impact get.

Toronto sports fans will only follow the top North American league. Nothing wrong with that, that's just how it is.

bowmanvillejim
08-13-2009, 10:30 AM
Allow me to chime in. (my first ever post).

I coach soccer and I sit on the executive comittee of our local club. What I see is there are far more kids enrolled in soccer than any other sport. In our club we have more girls enrolled than boys. Soccer is cheaper to participate in and parents like that. They also like the fact their kids are getting physically active. There is a growing base of "new canadians" who tend to gravitate towards the sports they are familiar with (soccer). Kids tend to follow and support the sports they actually play in.

The end result of this is that soccer will continue to grow in popularity. Hockey will struggle (it is already in some communities) but it will survive. The CFL will always have a limited fan base. Baseball...? I'm not sure what the future holds for it. Basketball will grow in popularity.

olegunnar
08-13-2009, 10:41 AM
Hey Jim I've got a question and you seem to be a subject matter expert.

We always hear about the particiaption rates of soccer in Canada and how it's a sign of the growth of the sport, however I worry it's more of a participation activity for kids, than a competitive sport.

Your post hints at that when you talk about parents liking their kids are getting active.
In my opinion a participation activity will get us no where on the world scene. For example, Canadians like riding their bikes, large percentages own and ride their bikes, but Canada isn't a cycling power.

Do you have any feelings on that subject?

bowmanvillejim
08-13-2009, 10:51 AM
(i'm no expert but I do have opinions and everyone should hear them.. :D ) The first step is participation at the house league level. From that competitive participation grows. There are many factors that go into Canada eventually producing internationally competitive squads on a regular basis and it all starts at the grass roots level.

Participation leads to a more enduring interest in the game for both the kids and their parents. It leads to the development of better coaches which results in better skills developement at younger ages.

I believe the shift in loyalties to various sports is underway and unstopable but it will take time for the full effects to be seen.

Beach_Red
08-13-2009, 10:55 AM
Hey Jim I've got a question and you seem to be a subject matter expert.

We always hear about the particiaption rates of soccer in Canada and how it's a sign of the growth of the sport, however I worry it's more of a participation activity for kids, than a competitive sport.

Your post hints at that when you talk about parents liking their kids are getting active.
In my opinion a participation activity will get us no where on the world scene. For example, Canadians like riding their bikes, large percentages own and ride their bikes, but Canada isn't a cycling power.

Do you have any feelings on that subject?


Participation may be a stepping stone. It may be something where you can't really have one without the other. You need high leels of participation to begin with and then you can start pulling out some elite players into more serious programs. That's what we did with hockey - lots of house league teams feed a few rep teams. Can you have the rep teams without the houseleague teams?

And I'd say Canadians are a real power in mountain biking, aren't they?

olegunnar
08-13-2009, 10:56 AM
Thanks for the reply.

mr k
08-13-2009, 11:11 AM
Toronto sports fans will only follow the top North American league. Nothing wrong with that, that's just how it is.

As followers of TFC, MLS and footy in general, I find it ironic that people easily dismiss the CFL. As footy fans, most of watch of all types of football from various domestic leagues, Champions League along with World Cup qualifying across all regions, age groups and gender. We have learned to appreciate each type for what added value it provides rather than thinking it isn't our worthwhile to watch a perceived inferior product.

So, in my view, when I come across people who soley watch NFL, I don't consider them true pointy ball fans. It's their loss as some of the best entertainment value is provided by CFL games. And U.S. college football is probably the closest we have in North America in terms of coming close to replicating the organic raw passion that we see in European and South American football leagues.

olegunnar
08-13-2009, 11:22 AM
So, in my view, when I come across people who soley watch NFL, I don't consider them true pointy ball fans. It's their loss as some of the best entertainment value is provided by CFL games.

entertainment value is subjective.

I know my football.
Played in high school and university.
Coached at the high school level.


The CFL to me is not entertaining in the least. In fact it usually just makes me mad watching it since it's played so poorly and is such a gong show.

Mark in Ottawa
08-13-2009, 11:29 AM
entertainment value is subjective.

I know my football.
Played in high school and university.
Coached at the high school level.

The CFL to me is not entertaining in the least. In fact it usually just makes me mad watching it since it's played so poorly and is such a gong show.
Similiar to my experience with hockey.

loved the game and played it badly...
became a coach and member of the local hockey association board of directors. Couldn't believe or stand the politics...
became a hockey referee with all of the associated B***S*** that goes with that...

today I don't play or watch hockey at all. Just not interested.