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Pookie
08-08-2009, 08:27 AM
Last night was a very interesting experience for me. I went with the interest in seeing how a team with talent plays the game... albeit without the passion of a meaningful game.

We often talk about improving the quality of the MLS and last night really highlighted the difference in quality of play. Wynne said it best, "Sometimes, you're just shocked at their movement on and off the ball. When they lay off you, you're saying: 'We're actually competing, we might be able to do something'. Then they surprise you and score five."

So, yes, MLS' quality has a long way to go.

But is it a way that you would want to go?

Along with the talent difference, there was a marked difference in terms of enjoyment and atmosphere.

This was a side show. Many people were there to be seen or to see as many "stars" as they could. It brought Chris Bosh and Steve Nash to a private box.

There was corporate VIP parking. There was a buffet set up. There were oohs and ahhs over simple stepovers. There was hair gel and white belts. Camera flashes and invitations for marriage (or at least a memorable night) were the norm. I'm sure that Facebook will experience an increase in upload traffic throughout the day.

There were scalpers looking to double up on $100+ face value tickets. There was an attempt at "the Wave." When defending on a corner kick, there was a "D-Fence" chant. There was no organized cheering for the most part though the smattering of supporters in the south end tried.... love the "it's all your fault" after Gala's goal.

There was definitely a market for this experience. People are willing to pay bucks if you can fill it with stars. The place was packed and reasonably full at kick off.

Despite some of the impressive plays, it wasn't what I've come to love.

So, the simple question this morning is... do you really want the MLS to move in the direction of a "Star driven" league?

You'd get incredible football with all of the above. Or do we have a good thing going?

flatpicker
08-08-2009, 08:32 AM
Incredible football is never a bad thing.
It would be a dream come true if MLS reached anything near that level.

But if it meant almost no rabid supporters could afford to attend the games, then that would be sad.
If atmosphere was killed in favour of star gazing... not sure it's a worthwhile trade-off.

TFCtoMUFC
08-08-2009, 08:33 AM
I think keeping it grass roots would help it not get watered down in North America and so that it wouldn't lose its die hard fans. On another point though the MLS could never compete with the EPL or La Liga because we have nobody willing to dole out 140 million for a dude on a soccer team. Baseball has become that sport in North America where people will make almost 30 million a season *cough* Good Job Steinbrenner *cough*. SO if you didnt want to read that I dont want the MLS to compete with other leagues.

pubboy
08-08-2009, 08:38 AM
I know where you are going with this, but it really isnt a realistic scenario. Irrespective of the level of play, TFC have proven that there is a grass roots support here. If by some miracle the league imporves so much that we do attract the stars in the MLS, the games would be competitve, and the crowd would, in the main, continue to be made up of the hard core of football fans. No wave, no f'ing D-Fence chant. The people there last night were mostly not footie fans. They were autograph hunters. Totally different scenario.

TFCtoMUFC
08-08-2009, 08:40 AM
I know where you are going with this, but it really isnt a realistic scenario. Irrespective of the level of play, TFC have proven that there is a grass roots support here. If by some miracle the league imporves so much that we do attract the stars in the MLS, the games would be competitve, and the crowd would, in the main, continue to be made up of the hard core of football fans. No wave, no f'ing D-Fence chant. The people there last night were mostly not footie fans. They were autograph hunters. Totally different scenario.

Autograph hunters? Seriously? Usually the guys who hound for autographs don't buy tickets to the actual event they just wait outside for players.

pubboy
08-08-2009, 08:43 AM
Autograph hunters? Seriously? Usually the guys who hound for autographs don't buy tickets to the actual event they just wait outside for players.

yeah ok - bad analogy. But you know what i mean. In the main, there were a lot of people who went looking to see stars up close. Nothing wrong with that, but in my opinion, it's not a realistic comparison. If this was a competitive game, the crowd would have been completely different.

Jack
08-08-2009, 09:09 AM
I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive.

At this point, MLS is not a "star-driven" league because the revenue simply does not compete. Think about the cost of those players on that pitch last night.

There is a market for this farce as a one-off, but if you tried to charge that money week after week, the market would dwindle and you'd never recoup what you paid for a player like Benzema, never mind what they paid for Cristiano.

Our league will grow and the money will go up and the talent level will improve, but to pretend something like last night could become the norm within the next 15-20 years is a bit naive, I think.

reggie
08-08-2009, 09:25 AM
give me a 30k stadium,grass and a 5 mil cap and i'm happy.

brad
08-08-2009, 09:33 AM
I know where you are going with this, but it really isnt a realistic scenario. Irrespective of the level of play, TFC have proven that there is a grass roots support here. If by some miracle the league imporves so much that we do attract the stars in the MLS, the games would be competitve, and the crowd would, in the main, continue to be made up of the hard core of football fans. No wave, no f'ing D-Fence chant. The people there last night were mostly not footie fans. They were autograph hunters. Totally different scenario.

Unfortunately, not true.

The success of the English Premier League priced the working class out their tickets all across England.

OneLoveOneEric
08-08-2009, 09:42 AM
Absolutely shocking. Are you asking me to choose between good football and getting shitfaced in an aluminum and cardboard stadium?
It's an easy choice for me. The best football I can get in town is what I want. The rest is secondary for me.

Detroit_TFC
08-08-2009, 09:48 AM
It's certainly possible that MLS could decide to enter that elite level of national leagues with world clubs (Prem, La Liga, Serie A, to a lesser extent Bundesliga and Ligue Un). If big US sports money-NFL level money- got control of MLS, that might be their aim. Right now there is some big money in MLS but they are satisfied with the Garber strategy for now. That could change in a day or month or who knows when. One thing that this Summer of Soccer may show those big money types is that you can put 70,000 in a stadium for non-WC games if the names are big enough.

This is somewhat different than NASL. At that time NASL was buying in, the world market for players was relatively low money and NASL was seen as hothousing the development of the league by buying talent. Now the world market for players is huge, there is huge mobility between leagues for elite players. Some in the US might think that it is time to throw a lot of money at MLS and buy up.

It is tempting but it won't work. It would be a duplication of the NASL experience. Novelty at first then dismissal. No doubt we need to improve our teams ability to enter the world market and get better players, but if we spend to the top without building the base of support, it will be a flash in the pan.

Beach_Red
08-08-2009, 10:20 AM
I don't know if this is the kind of thing you mean, but I've given up on the NHL completely. The last straw was realizing how much more I enjoyed the World Junior tournament. Sure, the skill level isn't as high among the juniors, but the game experience is so much better.

A lot of people prefer NCAA sports in the US to the pros and they realize the difference in skill levels.

Cashcleaner
08-08-2009, 11:07 AM
^ Watching the OHL live will do that for you as well, I've found. :)

Personally, like Jack mentioned I don't think the two points are mutually exclusive. I believe we can have a top-quality league that could compete with the likes of La Liga or the EPL, while still keeping prices reasonable and staying in-touch with the common soccer fan in North America.

As I've always believed, our club - from owners to groundskeepers, should have the desire to become the best club in the world. Not just the league. Not just the confederacy. The world. And on top of that, MLS should be endeavouring to become the most competitive soccer league as well.

Nodoubtguy
08-08-2009, 11:18 AM
While maybe there wasn't the atmosphere we love at the game, someone mentioned in another thread that ever bar and pub seemed to be playing this game to a captive audience, and surely that cannot be a negative for TFC.

Whoop
08-08-2009, 11:25 AM
I love TFC... and just hope the team improves every season but at the same time maintaining the atmosphere we have week in and week out.

The biggest thing for me will be pricing. If prices keep going up and up but the product on the field remains pretty static... then that's when you'll start losing people.

Pachuco
08-08-2009, 11:35 AM
Personally, it's a no brainer for me. Would I rather see Ronaldo, Kaka, Raul playing at BMO field with Leaf fans? absolutely 100%. I'd be one of the those Leaf fans watching the games. Yes the atmosphere is a great thing at BMO (some nights), but I go there to watch the sport I love. And if I can watch the best players in the world as opposed to horrible defending, passing and shooting, then you bet I'd take that.

Having said that, it doesn't have to be one or the other. Do you think the atmosphere in Spain, Italy and England sucks? of course not. The stadium would expand significantly, and there would still be room for cheap and expensive seats. There is no way MLSE could afford to own Real Madrid while playing in front of 20,000 fans.

giambac
08-08-2009, 12:23 PM
Last night was a very interesting experience for me. I went with the interest in seeing how a team with talent plays the game... albeit without the passion of a meaningful game.

We often talk about improving the quality of the MLS and last night really highlighted the difference in quality of play. Wynne said it best, "Sometimes, you're just shocked at their movement on and off the ball. When they lay off you, you're saying: 'We're actually competing, we might be able to do something'. Then they surprise you and score five."

So, yes, MLS' quality has a long way to go.

But is it a way that you would want to go?

Along with the talent difference, there was a marked difference in terms of enjoyment and atmosphere.

This was a side show. Many people were there to be seen or to see as many "stars" as they could. It brought Chris Bosh and Steve Nash to a private box.

There was corporate VIP parking. There was a buffet set up. There were oohs and ahhs over simple stepovers. There was hair gel and white belts. Camera flashes and invitations for marriage (or at least a memorable night) were the norm. I'm sure that Facebook will experience an increase in upload traffic throughout the day.

There were scalpers looking to double up on $100+ face value tickets. There was an attempt at "the Wave." When defending on a corner kick, there was a "D-Fence" chant. There was no organized cheering for the most part though the smattering of supporters in the south end tried.... love the "it's all your fault" after Gala's goal.

There was definitely a market for this experience. People are willing to pay bucks if you can fill it with stars. The place was packed and reasonably full at kick off.

Despite some of the impressive plays, it wasn't what I've come to love.

So, the simple question this morning is... do you really want the MLS to move in the direction of a "Star driven" league?

You'd get incredible football with all of the above. Or do we have a good thing going?


What last night did for me was confirm what I already knew.

MLS is at best a 3rd-4th level division team in the top European leagues (Serie A, Premier, Liga). No ifs ands or buts about it. It isn't an argument. It is a fact.

Look at TFC for example. We can't beat teams from the USL in North America which is considered 2nd level here. In Europe TFc would struggle with 4th level division teams. That's what pisses me off about Mo Johnson. I'm not asking him to bring in 1st level players becasue they would never come here. All I'm asking is if he had any sense of scouting talent and building a team, there are players in the lower divisons who would be stars on this team and league. Mo just doesn't know.

Oldtimer
08-08-2009, 12:31 PM
I think that MLS's strategy has been the right one until recently. The league nearly went bankrupt around the turn of the century, and that with the miniscule payrolls that they had then (not even any DPs). The idea of building a foundation first, making modest steps, and doing things slowly and carefully was the right strategy as Garber guided the young league through it's hard early years.

Then Toronto came on board, and showed that you could do things bigger. Seattle took those lessons to an even higher level. The addition of the DP option showed star power, in a minor way, that didn't bankrupt the league, but made it financially stronger.

So... now people are looking at a very stable, rock-steady foundation, and saying to Garber "I see that the foundation is solid, where is the house?

It's time to stop being so over-conservative, and take MLS to the next level. Maybe not "La Liga," but maybe "Budesliga" is a realistic goal over the next decade or so.

MartinUtd
08-08-2009, 12:32 PM
I think if TFC plays meaningful games the supporters will come out regardless of star power.

Yohan
08-08-2009, 01:19 PM
It's not about what Toronto wants or needs, but it's about the whole league as whole.

I put Toronto's interests as secondary concerns, compared to what is good for the rest of the league.

And simply put, the most of the league isn't ready to make that next step for more star power driven game.

Even getting DPs to put butts on the seats is a questionable marketing. Except for Beckham, how many DPs do you think brings more fans to the game? Even Chicago is having a hard time attracting fans.

So I'm all for conservative approach, because I just don't think the league is stable, and profitable enough for taking it to the next step. Personally, I don't think huge increase in salary cap isn't going to happen until 2013 or so, when Vancouver/Portland/Mtl experiment shows whether it's working or not.

Remember that most teams still aren't making a profit at this point.

Pookie
08-08-2009, 02:04 PM
I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive....

Our league will grow and the money will go up and the talent level will improve, but to pretend something like last night could become the norm within the next 15-20 years is a bit naive, I think.

Well, if you use the NHL as an example... both leagues have comparable attendance figures... although the NHL offers roughly double the amount of home dates in a regular season.

The NHL has no major national TV contract and essentially financed salaries using loans and future value in the same way that the EPL did (pre-lock out).

The Leafs used to operate on a $60M+ payroll. Cut the dates in half and TFC could conceivably operate on a $20-30M payroll if they catered to the same corporate market.

The NHL boosted their revenue through corporate schmoozing. They offered the same kinds of things that we saw last night. VIP treatment, special corporate concessions and perks. They sold the same ticket for a higher price because it offered "value" to a corporation.

It could be done.

Personally, I do feel that growing the league using "star power" and "atmosphere" are indeed exclusive.

I prefer what we have now with emphasis on development over spending for immediate improvement.

trane
08-08-2009, 03:02 PM
I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive.

At this point, MLS is not a "star-driven" league because the revenue simply does not compete. Think about the cost of those players on that pitch last night.

There is a market for this farce as a one-off, but if you tried to charge that money week after week, the market would dwindle and you'd never recoup what you paid for a player like Benzema, never mind what they paid for Cristiano.

Our league will grow and the money will go up and the talent level will improve, but to pretend something like last night could become the norm within the next 15-20 years is a bit naive, I think.

Agreed.

One has to come before the other. EPL, Serie A and La Ligua first developed on the quality of their national players. You cannot have it any other way.

Smokecell
08-08-2009, 03:27 PM
It's not about what Toronto wants or needs, but it's about the whole league as whole.

I put Toronto's interests as secondary concerns, compared to what is good for the rest of the league.

And simply put, the most of the league isn't ready to make that next step for more star power driven game.

Even getting DPs to put butts on the seats is a questionable marketing. Except for Beckham, how many DPs do you think brings more fans to the game? Even Chicago is having a hard time attracting fans.

So I'm all for conservative approach, because I just don't think the league is stable, and profitable enough for taking it to the next step. Personally, I don't think huge increase in salary cap isn't going to happen until 2013 or so, when Vancouver/Portland/Mtl experiment shows whether it's working or not.

Remember that most teams still aren't making a profit at this point.

Extending on this and the views of a few others, I thought the friendlies played in seattle, l.a, and of course here, as good as they weren't used properly. Instead of targeting the hotbeds of MLS where there is already sufficient interest in the teams would it not make sense to have Madrid and Barca etc play games in say kansas city, columbus, salt lake, dallas etc where filling a huge stadium to see these teams could help the local teams?

For MLS to succeed, and for that cap to ever get higher every market needs to be profitable and certainly those cities could use the boost in soccer awareness and hopefully have that translate to increased attendance for the home team. As cool as it was to have Madrid in town (not that I went to the game cus the prices were ridiculous) I'd much rather they played elsewhere because I know for TFC to succeed and be able to bring in stars, the league as a whole needs to be able to succeed.

london_tfc_fan
08-08-2009, 04:22 PM
just to throw another opinion in there....a little less than 2 months ago Spain lost the US 2-0 and how many of those players were developed in MLS? but obviously MLS isn't La Liga but it is trying to improve and doing so gradually!

TorCanSoc
08-08-2009, 04:50 PM
As I've always believed, our club - from owners to groundskeepers, should have the desire to become the best club in the world. Not just the league. Not just the confederacy. The world. And on top of that, MLS should be endeavouring to become the most competitive soccer league as well.

TFC is already better than most teams in the world. We make a profit. And that folks is sustainable. If we need billionaire oil men to bankroll a team for personal pleasure, it will only fail in the long run. Every year making positive changes to how a soccer team should be run in a Canadian soccer culture will only mean a better team.

I think this league is going to take a massive leap forward when Vancouver and Montreal jump aboard. More importantly our CMNT is going to make it to the World Cup.

And yes someone posted a 5 mill salary cap and this league steps it up a notch. I agree.

I still like the DP rule. But why not rearrange it. Allow three DPs per team. The hit on the salary cap should be 100K and a maximum of 1mill per season per DP.

In any case its all sunny in TorCanSoc's world when it comes to this league and TFC.

rocker
08-08-2009, 04:55 PM
20 years ago MLS didn't exist.

in 2029, MLS could be as good as any league in the world.

TFC is 2.5 years old.

20 years is a long time.

mighty_torontofc_2008
08-08-2009, 05:57 PM
What last night did for me was confirm what I already knew.

MLS is at best a 3rd-4th level division team in the top European leagues (Serie A, Premier, Liga). No ifs ands or buts about it. It isn't an argument. It is a fact.

Look at TFC for example. We can't beat teams from the USL in North America which is considered 2nd level here. In Europe TFc would struggle with 4th level division teams. That's what pisses me off about Mo Johnson. I'm not asking him to bring in 1st level players becasue they would never come here. All I'm asking is if he had any sense of scouting talent and building a team, there are players in the lower divisons who would be stars on this team and league. Mo just doesn't know.


more moaning from the king of moans..serie a is shite compared to the rest of europe...watching grass grow is more exciting..Real Madrid have lost to lower league teams in cup matches..it happens...TFC should automatically win against the usl teams because their are in MLS?? get real...team have to earn their wins and TFC did not against PR. give Mo
time ffs we are a 3 year old club not one with over 100 yrs to its name..reality.

TorCanSoc
08-08-2009, 06:25 PM
20 years ago MLS didn't exist.

in 2029, MLS could be as good as any league in the world.

TFC is 2.5 years old.

20 years is a long time.

Correct. As long as MLSE is committed to change, and that means committing a percentage of profits towards reinvestment. I hate speaking in these money terms. But if MLSE and MLS just want to milk this cash cow until (as some say) the fad fades, then this league will be done within 10 years. This doesn't need to be stated to anyone who runs a business.

I feel the league is making the right steps.

Beach_Red
08-08-2009, 08:34 PM
All I'm asking is if he had any sense of scouting talent and building a team, there are players in the lower divisons who would be stars on this team and league. Mo just doesn't know.


You can ask for that all you want, it's not what this young league is about.

Essentially this was Pookie's quistion - what are you willing to give up to get MLS more competitive now?

If every team in MLS simply raided 4th division teams in other parts of the world, they'd have a higher quality of play right now. But that's short term thinking because if the league is going to survive it's going to have to do it with mostly North American players. It's like European hockey - they could have stocked their teams with Canadians who couldn't make the NHL, but they limited the number of foreign players allowed. Now European hockey is just as good.

According to http://web.mlsnet.com/about/league.jsp?section=regulations&content=overview MLS teams are allowed 8 international players on the roster. How much money do you want the team to spend on scouting for 8 players? (TFC is alowed more and Mo traded for more international spots, but it's still a small part of the roster). I know, you still think that the international spots could be taken up by better players than Guevara and Robinson and Dichio and so on. Someday they will be. Just don't expect a whole team of foreign 4th division playrs, that's not what this league is for.

J .
08-08-2009, 09:53 PM
id like a happy medium. I think that we can find a middle ground, but I like cheap tickets and Im happy watching DeRo over Ronaldo every match, its entertaining and fun.

gtaguy
08-09-2009, 06:15 PM
I'd like to see a league salary cap of atleast 10 mill .. I think this would do wonders for MLS clubs not to mention put you in the middle of alot of clubs in the world.. unfortunately money is the reason RM is king right now .. well see in a few months when la liga has start to play itself out.. money does not buy you a championship but it does bring you in some serious quality players..

billygrieveuk
08-09-2009, 06:48 PM
i think the league has room to grow.

My wish would be the "grassroots" players that become something special in MLS (Edu. Altidore etc) stayed in the
league and became icons in north america. Instead of chasing the understandable dream of playing in europe.

flatpicker
08-09-2009, 08:00 PM
i think the league has room to grow.

My wish would be the "grassroots" players that become something special in MLS (Edu. Altidore etc) stayed in the
league and became icons in north america. Instead of chasing the understandable dream of playing in europe.

on one hand, you could say that convincing top North American players to stay in MLS would help grow the sport here.

but on the other hand, the sport needs to grow more before we can afford for those players to stay.


so, while it's a shame to lose good talent to other leagues, I accept that it's a fact of life right now given the current financial state of MLS.

the league will need to be clever in finding ways to increase exposure, profitability and salaries...
perhaps selling off good homegrown talent overseas is a positive thing right now.

Yohan
08-09-2009, 08:01 PM
I don't mind when players go to decent leagues teams in Europe, but it mildly annoys me when players choose to go to Norway or Denmark over MLS

that's just sad

Oldtimer
08-10-2009, 12:09 PM
You know, for me a first step would be for MLS to be better than the Mexican first division. It's not there yet, but it's well on it's way.

Tintin
08-10-2009, 12:16 PM
You know, for me a first step would be for MLS to be better than the Mexican first division. It's not there yet, but it's well on it's way.


That's a bold statement. Well on its way!

Really? I have to disagree totally. Mexiacan league is deep, more talent and more exciting. Look at alle the teams left in the CONCACAF champions league from Mexico...

Super
08-10-2009, 12:20 PM
The MLS is still a fairly young league, but I think it's time to take some chances and try to improve the quality of play beyond its current level. That means lifting the salary cap - or at the very least to allow clubs with the means to spend a bit more on their teams. It would be great for the league as the bigger teams would cater to a larger audience, and that brings in more revenue not just for the clubs, but the league as a whole. The greater the support should equal greater odds of winning something. Also, at the end of the day, more money spent on bringing in talent would lift the overall quality of the game and everyone will benefit from that. Sure, certain markets will have to struggle a bit more to compete, but in a league where 8 teams make the play-offs, it's not very likely to be dominated by 2-3 teams. Once you're in the play-offs ANYONE can win.

Beach_Red
08-10-2009, 12:38 PM
^ At the very least MLS teams should be competitive when bidding for American (and Canadian) players.

Of course, as our recent experience with JDG shows - even offering a lot more money won't always be enough.

Shakes McQueen
08-10-2009, 12:40 PM
I don't see how the two are mutually exclusive.

At this point, MLS is not a "star-driven" league because the revenue simply does not compete. Think about the cost of those players on that pitch last night.

There is a market for this farce as a one-off, but if you tried to charge that money week after week, the market would dwindle and you'd never recoup what you paid for a player like Benzema, never mind what they paid for Cristiano.

Our league will grow and the money will go up and the talent level will improve, but to pretend something like last night could become the norm within the next 15-20 years is a bit naive, I think.

This is essentially my opinion.

And if you want long-lasting fan support, you need the grassroots. The NASL already showed what happens when you have a league propped up by nothing but empty "star power". The entire financial model is incredibly fragile.

- Scott

Fort York Redcoat
08-10-2009, 01:12 PM
I'm comfortable being mildly annoyed with the gimmickry of midseason friendlies for johnny come latlies to figure out its better to get behind one's local team than try and be a part of a foreign team one adopts. This extends to a necessary evil of the DP rule. Eventually the league and its fans should find the comfort in being a feeder league while the rest of the NA fans catch up to the world most played game.

Oldtimer
08-10-2009, 03:05 PM
That's a bold statement. Well on its way!

Really? I have to disagree totally. Mexiacan league is deep, more talent and more exciting. Look at alle the teams left in the CONCACAF champions league from Mexico...

It's on it's way. It's not there yet. Of course Mexico is better right now. It's had 100 years head-start. But surpassing it is achievable.