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Toronto Ruffrider
07-30-2009, 01:29 AM
Okay, tonight's result really sucked, but not everything from tonight's game was regrettable. For the first time ever, we got a taste at what BMO Field looks like with a stand at the north end. Although said stand was only temporary, I like the look - it makes our stadium look more complete. Finally BMO has more of a balanced feel to it.

In addition to looks, I think it's interesting that BMO was able to accommodate several hundred more seats without experiencing problems regarding fan movement behind the stand. IMO, it's time to knock down those two buildings at the north end and build a proper stand to close off that incomplete side of the stadium.

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/picture.php?albumid=80&pictureid=1774

Ageroo
07-30-2009, 01:34 AM
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3552/3770598127_9520726578.jpg

Shep
07-30-2009, 01:35 AM
I'll be sat there for the RM match, I didn't really plan it, but now I'm looking forward to checking out the view from there.

That wee section actually had it going on tonight too, standing (at some points), some chanting, all full.

Yohan
07-30-2009, 01:40 AM
That North End stand screamed 'HOME' to SGs. Place where we can do our own thing without having to worry about others? Fuck yeah.

Please MLSE, let the SGs have it, and the others can have South End

AdamZ
07-30-2009, 01:41 AM
I like them, I think they should permanently replace the patio.

james
07-30-2009, 02:11 AM
stadium looked much better with a stand in the North End. Fuck the beer garden and build a pernament stand in!!!!!

pavintfc
07-30-2009, 02:22 AM
stadium lookd great with the new north stand hope it stays for rest of season

Brooker
07-30-2009, 02:24 AM
fuck the beer garden. keep those fuckin stands!

Marc"2L"
07-30-2009, 03:50 AM
Pour some concrete on me baby.
Leave the taps in to build a concession stand under it. Build a SOLID Stand that holds a bit more then the south end.

Epic pilgrimage ensues
A roof is the solution to any weather related attendance issues. But that's way out there for now I bet.

GBV
07-30-2009, 05:24 AM
thumbs up from here, too.
those seats must be awesome ... close and elevated.

profit89
07-30-2009, 05:50 AM
I like them, I think they should permanently replace the patio.

Totally agree. Looked much better. Not to mention it would have the effect of keeping out some of the gusty winds.

Those temp stands should be made permanent !

rocker
07-30-2009, 07:07 AM
I agree with all of ya. I was in 125 and it was just so nice to look over and see that stand there, particularly when they were heckling that asshole keeper. Nice and tight, packed with people to a good level under the scoreboard.

if they built it permanent, they just need to do a couple thing:

1) bring a new constructed stand right to the front edge of the concrete. So remove those tables and put it right to the edge like all other sections are -- i think also you have to do this because some of mid-side seats prob can't see the cornerflags in the north end due to group huts, if it's further back
2) in building a "real" stand, you can have washrooms and concessions underneath
3) make it high enough that it goes just under the scoreboard
4) have the entry/exit to the stand midway up

With a real stand, it would make a bit more room in that north area, which was a little tight last night cuz the temp stand had no walking space underneath it.

if they want to keep the group huts on either side, build a stand just in that Beer garden, OR, build a t-shape stand... so the beer garden forms the bottom of the T, and then either side of the T goes over the roofs of the group huts (you could have beams on either side of the group huts near the corner flags for support).

Wagner
07-30-2009, 07:12 AM
any one know how many rows?
approximately how many people did it hold?

Suds
07-30-2009, 07:42 AM
The temporary stands did fill in the stadium for sure and the fans who filled the seats where doing good job being loud, cheering, etc. Kudos to whoever got that going :scarf:

If it becomes regular thing I think they should ditch the tables in front. I've stood in the beer garden many times and those tables are most often empty. When there is people in them they could care less about the game for the most part. The majority are just there to "take in the experience".

Steve
07-30-2009, 07:47 AM
Two thumbs up to the stand. I even liked the beer garden behind them (all the way up to the food building). I don't know if it was the stand, or the night, but sound seemed to bounce around much better last night, and I could hear 112/113 MUCH more clearly than I ever could before.

ensco
07-30-2009, 08:06 AM
Whoa. A lot of supporters love the beer garden, although maybe not many in RPB. Thousands use it and love it. If you don't care, that's your right, but just so you know.

Parkdale
07-30-2009, 08:17 AM
Whoa. A lot of supporters love the beer garden, although maybe not many in RPB. Thousands use it and love it. If you don't care, that's your right, but just so you know.

exactly.

there's people who love that place, they just aren't as vocal about it.

personally, I've never been there, but I have to walk past it every game
and it seems like there's a bunch of familiar faces having a good time.

Red CB Toronto
07-30-2009, 08:22 AM
It looked great to me, gave BMO a feel that it has not had in the past.

mlsintoronto
07-30-2009, 08:27 AM
The beer garden has always been the place for people to go after beer is cut off in the rest of the stadium. I agree it looks good but last night looked better.

Ensco's right...there are those who love it but I think there is a way to better utilize the space in the long term. Keep the suggestions coming.

Another good thing: if we make a permanent change there we will be saying good bye to the whole notion of concerts in a pretty significant way.

There is a lot of dead space in front of the patio too that can be used better.

Shaughno
07-30-2009, 08:29 AM
Paul, I give my 100% approval to keeping concerts out of BMO. :D

marquis
07-30-2009, 08:30 AM
Two thumbs up to the stand. I even liked the beer garden behind them (all the way up to the food building). I don't know if it was the stand, or the night, but sound seemed to bounce around much better last night, and I could hear 112/113 MUCH more clearly than I ever could before.

Agreed. The stadium acoustics are improved considerably with the north stand. I sit in 105 and without the north stand, I can barely hear what's being chanted. Tonight though, the sound reflected back into the stadium and I could hear loud and clear everything. Absolutely fantastic atmosphere!

phonzo
07-30-2009, 08:31 AM
not only that they managed to do a little TFC *clap clap clap* in the north :p

mick.seagulls
07-30-2009, 08:32 AM
I was sitting over in those stands, and it was Great...(if they were real stands). The seats were pretty cramped as they were, but for Temp not bad...It would have been better if we didn't have the Security Nazis comming over every 10 minutes to tell us to sit down.

Personally I think if you had Standing at Both ends and sitting for those that want it on the sides it would be cool. I have now been if pretty much every area, have to say really cool seeing the south end head on, you guys were rocking :-)

:scarf:

Steve
07-30-2009, 08:35 AM
The beer garden has always been the place for people to go after beer is cut off in the rest of the stadium. I agree it looks good but last night looked better.

Ensco's right...there are those who love it but I think there is a way to better utilize the space in the long term. Keep the suggestions coming.

Another good thing: if we make a permanent change there we will be saying good bye to the whole notion of concerts in a pretty significant way.

There is a lot of dead space in front of the patio too that can be used better.

If there is an option to have the Beer Garden where it was today on a more permanent basis (in front of the food building) that would be brilliant. I thought it was great there, good amount of space, not in the main throughways (so easier to line up and get beer without stopping people from walking through), and a good vibe. Sure, you can't see the game from there anymore, but I'd rather people be in their seats to watch the game anyway (maybe just have a few more TVs around so people can watch the game when getting beer).

And the north end stands looked great. If you could build real stands there, and get rid of those buildings (what are they anyway? boxes?) it would make BMO much more intimidating, and help spread chants better (sound tended to escape from the north end). We want a bowl, a place where no matter where the opponents face, they sea a tide of red. So, Paul, I'll help you get started on your checklist for the offseason:

1) Real grass
2) North end stands
3) Give north end stands to the supporters groups to control (err, and me, since I'm not actually affiliated with any of them...)
4) A winning team

redcard
07-30-2009, 08:36 AM
I say get the families out of the south end and put them in the north...as the supporters groups grow the south end will be the place for for all of them (rpb, usector, nee)... all in the south all coordinated...the north end will have restrictions on the numbers it can hold and grow to...

as the popularity of the team grows the the SGs will grow in numbers, south end will be the place to accomodate that growth in the long run...

families want the cheaper seats let them have the north...giving control of the available south end could be collectively controlled by the 3 main SGs...

Steve
07-30-2009, 08:38 AM
I say get the families out of the south end and put them in the north...as the supporters groups grow the south end will be the place for for all of them (rpb, usector, nee)... all in the south all coordinated...the north end will have restrictions on the numbers it can hold and grow to...

as the popularity of the team grows the the SGs will grow in numbers, south end will be the place to accomodate that growth in the long run...

families want the cheaper seats let them have the north...giving control of the available south end could be collectively controlled by the 3 main SGs...

The problem is, you can't move people who don't want to be moved, so there will always be people in the south end that don't want to join in the supporter's section festivities. If you started new though, you could give control of the tickets to the supporter's groups, and let them control the tickets, thereby ensuring everyone there wants to be there (and won't heckle capos, start fights, complain about flags, etc).

bertal
07-30-2009, 08:39 AM
Okay, tonight's result really sucked, but not everything from tonight's game was regrettable. For the first time ever, we got a taste at what BMO Field looks like with a stand at the north end. Although said stand was only temporary, I like the look - it makes our stadium look more complete. Finally BMO has more of a balanced feel to it.

In addition to looks, I think it's interesting that BMO was able to accommodate several hundred more seats without experiencing problems regarding fan movement behind the stand. IMO, it's time to knock down those two buildings at the north end and build a proper stand to close off that incomplete side of the stadium.

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/picture.php?albumid=80&pictureid=1774

my thoughts exactly!

werewolf
07-30-2009, 08:44 AM
I say get the families out of the south end and put them in the north...as the supporters groups grow the south end will be the place for for all of them

That would be excellent.

burlington Red
07-30-2009, 08:44 AM
Whoa. A lot of supporters love the beer garden, although maybe not many in RPB. Thousands use it and love it. If you don't care, that's your right, but just so you know.


That whole beer garden annoys the hell of me. Go to your seat, watch the game, I hate it when I look around and always see empty seats, and then look down at the beer garden and people are standing there in their droves. Takes away from the atmosphere. I appreciate some day trippers there for the experience want to stand with their mates, and maybe couldn't get a ticket together, but if we are MLS team, not some Sunday pub team. Go to your seat and watch the game, have a beer at your seat or at 1/2 time.
Watch our games on tv, you'll always see empty seats, yet these games are sell outs. Been a season ticket holder at Man Utd in the past, you go to watch football, have a beer before the game, half tiem and after the game.
Make the temp seating permanent, and lets sort out the real fans

C.Ronaldo
07-30-2009, 08:46 AM
needs to be right to the railing

get rid of those stupid tables

flatpicker
07-30-2009, 08:46 AM
I say get the families out of the south end and put them in the north...as the supporters groups grow the south end will be the place for for all of them (rpb, usector, nee)... all in the south all coordinated...the north end will have restrictions on the numbers it can hold and grow to...

as the popularity of the team grows the the SGs will grow in numbers, south end will be the place to accomodate that growth in the long run...

families want the cheaper seats let them have the north...giving control of the available south end could be collectively controlled by the 3 main SGs...


I have no doubt that your plan would be next to impossible to achieve.
Moving people about will not work. We have seen that already with the seat relocation system.

Yeah, the only logical situation here is a North Supporters Grandstand.

The South end was a valiant effort, but things have just evolved to much in different directions.
There are too many people would are better suited for the South but can't get there.
A fresh new section in the North will solve so many issues for MLSE.
No more complaints from families and such
No more issues with flags or banners,
Better, more concentrated support by us being "all together"
All sections become more manageable for MLSE... that should make life easier.
Having supporter groups "here and there" has been fun at times, but really, it's holding us back.

Besides, the South End is actually too big for supporters IMO.
I have a feeling a permanent North End would be smaller.
Maybe 2000 people? Yesterday's stand was 1000 I believe.
As smaller section will be better for us.

It makes me really happy to hear the Paul and co. are thinking more about this.
I sure hope it becomes a reality soon!
No reason why it couldn't happen by next season even!

OH Lord would it ever be nice!

canadian_bhoy
07-30-2009, 08:47 AM
Paul, the temporary stand last night looked tremendous! And based on the materials used for the rest of the stadium, it wouldn't take much for it to be permanent! :p

I love the fact that it is raised up from the pitch level - reminds me of the "nest" or whatever they call it in Seattle.

http://www.wiaa.com/eckc/hawksnest06.jpg

The beer garden is treasured by a lot of people, but at the end of the day, the product is football and creating a proper stadium atmosphere and getting people seated access up-front and close to the action trumps a beer garden.

I still don't understand why TFC/Carlsberg don't make better use of the Ex Grounds surrounding the stadium when it comes to a beer garden. Look at Bandshell Park for instance...it will play host to Beerfest and would be an amazing spot for a pre/post game beer garden (just please don't hire Tom Cochrane to play...EVER). There are other spaces around the ex grounds as well that would be perfect for a BG.

Long story short - it looked great, keep it, no...improve it, then keep it! It was great!

ps. I heard that BMO isn't well liked by the music industry folks because it's a pain in the ass to load/set-up. As much as I'd love an Oasis show at BMO, the Ampitheatre is right there, so no big deal.

pss - crazy idea of the day. Take a page from the Cubbies and put up temp bleachers on top of the food building!!!!! One stand on either side of the big FOOD sign!

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/89/232427424_0583de7833.jpg?v=0





The beer garden has always been the place for people to go after beer is cut off in the rest of the stadium. I agree it looks good but last night looked better.

Ensco's right...there are those who love it but I think there is a way to better utilize the space in the long term. Keep the suggestions coming.

Another good thing: if we make a permanent change there we will be saying good bye to the whole notion of concerts in a pretty significant way.

There is a lot of dead space in front of the patio too that can be used better.

redcard
07-30-2009, 08:47 AM
The problem is, you can't move people who don't want to be moved, so there will always be people in the south end that don't want to join in the supporter's section festivities. If you started new though, you could give control of the tickets to the supporter's groups, and let them control the tickets, thereby ensuring everyone there wants to be there (and won't heckle capos, start fights, complain about flags, etc).

people will move if there are cheaper seats available...and since the north is cheaper than the south...dont be surprised that they move during relocation to the cheaper seats, if they are offered as Seasons...

also the away supporters are located close to the north stands...i dont think that it would be a good idea to have home support so close to the away supporters...

rocker
07-30-2009, 08:51 AM
Another good thing: if we make a permanent change there we will be saying good bye to the whole notion of concerts in a pretty significant way.

has there been a concert since Genesis???

__wowza
07-30-2009, 08:52 AM
whatd they say the games attendance was last night? according to TM it sold out (i know they always hold out tickets) but the east end was fuckin EMPTY for the entire game.

phonzo
07-30-2009, 08:53 AM
I heard 20 and change 20,835..but it came on the PA and I reallllly wasn't paying attention :p

rocker
07-30-2009, 08:56 AM
whatd they say the games attendance was last night? according to TM it sold out (i know they always hold out tickets) but the east end was fuckin EMPTY for the entire game.

approx. 20,700

i think that's right. cuz with the north stand, full attendance shoulda been over 21500 easily, but with the missing people east side, it was still not as high.

werewolf
07-30-2009, 08:56 AM
Besides, the South End is actually too big for supporters IMO.
I have a feeling a permanent North End would be smaller.
Maybe 2000 people? Yesterday's stand was 1000 I believe.
As smaller section will be better for us.



Better for us today, maybe, but it would be a shame if we collectively sell ourselves short.

flatpicker
07-30-2009, 08:59 AM
^ I'm pretty sure a 2000 seat stand would suit us fine for some time to come

Toronto_Bhoy
07-30-2009, 09:03 AM
North Stand…you complete me.

It kinda finished of the stadium…the only thing I didn't like was it looked as if they were trying to start the wave?

Uh oh…

flatpicker
07-30-2009, 09:06 AM
^ I wouldn't worry too much... none of those are season ticket holders... I think we are safe.

:)

Fort York Redcoat
07-30-2009, 09:07 AM
The beer garden has always been the place for people to go after beer is cut off in the rest of the stadium. I agree it looks good but last night looked better.

Ensco's right...there are those who love it but I think there is a way to better utilize the space in the long term. Keep the suggestions coming.

Another good thing: if we make a permanent change there we will be saying good bye to the whole notion of concerts in a pretty significant way.

There is a lot of dead space in front of the patio too that can be used better.

I appreciate you want to keep options open but I can't imagine a band I'd want to be at BMO.The sooner concerts are out the better IMO. I liked seeing more people watching the game and noticed that with it's size the supporters will give the North end a name and quicker than you'd think you'd be making close to the money you did with the beer garden and it would look better.

werewolf
07-30-2009, 09:07 AM
^ I'm pretty sure a 2000 seat stand would suit us fine for some time to come

where are you going to fit an extra 1000 people on to that grandstand?

Steve
07-30-2009, 09:08 AM
where are you going to fit an extra 1000 people on to that grandstand?

I don't think people wanted to make the temporary structure the home of the supporters, rather have a real stand built over the off season that the supporters would move into.

eustacchio
07-30-2009, 09:09 AM
I was definitely different sitting in the north end last night.

Make it permanent.

flatpicker
07-30-2009, 09:10 AM
where are you going to fit an extra 1000 people on to that grandstand?


ummmm..... let me think...

It's called a bigger grandstand????

Did you think I wanted people sit on each others shoulders???

I think it's safe to assume that if they build a permanent North Stand that it will be bigger than that temp one from last night.

billyfly
07-30-2009, 09:11 AM
RPBs have been mapped throughout the stadium and you wouldn't believe how spaced out and far apart we all are.

werewolf
07-30-2009, 09:12 AM
So you can either make an awkward looking grandstand to fit between the two corporate boxes. And have the prawns complain about the noise. Or tear down the luxury suites, loose out on all that revenue, and build a small stand that doesn't utilize maximum space and leaves gaps on the end...

rocker
07-30-2009, 09:12 AM
another reason for a north stand -- the NEE is right there in 127, so there would be some "continuation" from a new, permanent north stand. Also, since there seems to be few season tickets in 104, at least up top, if you wanted to expand beyond the north, supporters could move there.

rocker
07-30-2009, 09:14 AM
And have the prawns complain about the noise.

the NEE is right there chanting away next to the people in the private buildings already.

Anyhow, half the time the people with seats in the private buildings stay in the private buildings, particularly when it's cold. so noise doesn't matter. Those 3 rows they get allotted to them are half empty much of the time.

Pyeddo
07-30-2009, 09:17 AM
Leaving the stadium though Gate 1 to get to the Dufferin bus was a bit of a bitch with the expanded beer section. Think this layout was a bit of an afterthought once they realized they could make some more cash on the North Stand setup.

eustacchio
07-30-2009, 09:23 AM
North Stand…you complete me.

It kinda finished of the stadium…the only thing I didn't like was it looked as if they were trying to start the wave?

Uh oh…

They sure did try that. I looked at my friends and gave them a stern warning about joining in (loud enough that the people around me didn't try it either).

stugautz
07-30-2009, 09:24 AM
I like the idea of the north end suites surrounded by seats. It will pay hommage to Maple Leaf Gardens and Ballard's box.

My only suggestion would be build up the north end, add 1,000-2,000 seats along with concessions and more washrooms and leave reserve seats for visiting supporters (hopefully in the future we will have more of them coming to BMO). Security wise it would make sense to keep them as far from TFC supporters as possible (with the exception of the NEE). And they would have a dedicated exit to get out of the stadium as quickly as possible.

As far as games that don't have visiting support (the other 90%) seats can be sold to TFC fans on the Gold and Red waiting list first, then everybody else

Mark in Ottawa
07-30-2009, 09:27 AM
[quote=mlsintoronto;Keep the suggestions coming.[/quote]
Here is one for you Paul.

A few years ago I went to a sold out hockey game in Pembroke Ontario and noticed empty seats.

Turned out they had a beer garden under the stands (as we were not allowed to drink in our seats at that time). The beer garden not having a view of the ice surface... had a bunch of closed circuit TV's installed so fans could still watch the game in the comfort and atmosphere there.

It seemed that they also had sold a few tickets that were specifically for the beer garden as a few of the locals did not want to sit in the cold arena but did want to watch the Lumber Kings play and support the team.

werewolf
07-30-2009, 09:31 AM
the NEE is right there chanting away next to the people in the private buildings already.

Anyhow, half the time the people with seats in the private buildings stay in the private buildings, particularly when it's cold. so noise doesn't matter. Those 3 rows they get allotted to them are half empty much of the time.

With all due respect to my friends at NEE. There is a difference between 50-100 guys chanting beside you, and being surrounded by over 1000 people.




My only suggestion would be build up the north end, add 1,000-2,000 seats along with concessions and more washrooms and leave reserve seats for visiting supporters (hopefully in the future we will have more of them coming to BMO). Security wise it would make sense to keep them as far from TFC supporters as possible (with the exception of the NEE). And they would have a dedicated exit to get out of the stadium as quickly as possible.

As far as games that don't have visiting support (the other 90%) seats can be sold to TFC fans on the Gold and Red waiting list first, then everybody else

That is a good idea. I know people would rather have our supporters in seats then visitors, but it would be an ideal area to put them in, where they wouldn't be as many issues standing behind home supporters. A lot of the waiting list could be taken care of rather easily with the rest of the seats.

flatpicker
07-30-2009, 09:33 AM
With all due respect to my friends at NEE. There is a difference between 50-100 guys chanting beside you, and being surrounded by over 1000 people.




well, they could always move those private boxes to the south!

redcard
07-30-2009, 09:33 AM
^ I'm pretty sure a 2000 seat stand would suit us fine for some time to come

think long term...SGs will increase and you will be limited in numbers, there are more individuals that would chant and support if there was more organization in the south ie a more centrally located capo...

there are many of us in the sections other than 112./113 that try to get involved in singing but by the time we realize whats going on, 112/113 has moved on...

also look at how much the columubus SG has grown, this would be difficult for us in a smaller grandstand.

Suds
07-30-2009, 09:43 AM
That whole beer garden annoys the hell of me. Go to your seat, watch the game, I hate it when I look around and always see empty seats, and then look down at the beer garden and people are standing there in their droves. Takes away from the atmosphere. I appreciate some day trippers there for the experience want to stand with their mates, and maybe couldn't get a ticket together, but if we are MLS team, not some Sunday pub team. Go to your seat and watch the game, have a beer at your seat or at 1/2 time.
Watch our games on tv, you'll always see empty seats, yet these games are sell outs. Been a season ticket holder at Man Utd in the past, you go to watch football, have a beer before the game, half tiem and after the game.
Make the temp seating permanent, and lets sort out the real fans

As someone who does stand in the beer garden you are taking a very one-sided view. Many of us SSH's have not been able to move to a designated supporters section in the stadium yet. We like to stand to watch the game, cheer, throw the odd profanity at Hartman, etc. We can't do that in our current sections; which I have no problem with as MLSE is trying to accommodate everyone. Please don't use a broad stroke when and claim we all take away from the atmosphere or are "daytrippers".

Until we are able to relocate to a supporters section, the beer garden is a great alternative for me and many others.

I do agree with your point on empty seats around the stadium. But I think that has more to do with empty scalper seats than people in the beer garden.

That being said, I think the north stands worked out well. Just ditch the tables in front and move the stands closer. Believe me, the tables in front are much more dead space than anyone in the beer garden.

If they opened up a north stand as a supporters section I would seriously consider relocating there.

rocker
07-30-2009, 09:50 AM
With all due respect to my friends at NEE. There is a difference between 50-100 guys chanting beside you, and being surrounded by over 1000 people.

so you're the spokesman for the people who sit in those boxes?

what if they like the atmosphere?

anyhow, like I said, if you've ever watched that area of the stadium, hardly any of the people actually sit in those 3 rows of seats. They stand inside and look out the window.

Noise will not be a problem when you stand inside the buildings ;)

wzhxvy
07-30-2009, 09:54 AM
Paul,

My two cents. I think the North stand is brilliant, low cost solution to expand capacity, improve the experience, generate more revenue etc. I am sure you guys are thinking of how to probably make it largers as there is a ton of wasted space out there. The beer Garden setup is great the way it is...as a matter of fact if you can create a European square environment in the back, project the game, and have people congrgate to drink and be merry in that area...that could appeal to a lot of the beer garden crowd.

I also think it would be wise to make the North section a supporters area. Absolutely.

werewolf
07-30-2009, 10:08 AM
well, they could always move those private boxes to the south!

:facepalm:

umm, cost-efficiency?

The south-end is fairly small to begin with in comparison with the rest of the stadium. If there were no private boxes, and the whole space behind the endline was utilized for a grandstand, it would be just as big as the south end is now. Otherwise it would look really awful if it was built smaller.

Sincerely,
Official Luxury-Box spokesman

Hitcho
07-30-2009, 10:23 AM
Paul

There is clearly good support for a permanent North Stand and there are some good ideas in this thread on maybe using it to get the SG's under one umbrella. I think that's a great idea, but my biggest concern would be to make sure any move to assemble the SG's is properly thought through, from all angles. For example:

- we've ended up with the SG's splintered once, we should make sure it doesn't happen again in any expansion model. assembling them in a new SG only stand would be a good solution.

- how to set it up? the FO will not relinquish control of the seats to SG's, but what about adding in a pre-approval process before the tickets are issued? pain in the ass for the first season, but easy to maintain after that, and the SG's would be responsible for maintaining their own waiting lists and seating maps after the original pre-approval process.

- how many seats does each SG get and who decides this, and how?

- how are seats allocated within each SG (this is a SG issue rather than one for the club, but the SG's are going to have to provide a map of who sits where to the club so that tickets can be issued accordingly I would think, not a big headache for the club since most will already be existing SSH's and the club can just transfer details, btu big headache for the SG's and the squabbling about who goes where)

- do we let TRN into any new SG section? Their drumming, I can tell you from experience as I sit in 118, will completely drown out the SG chants and songs. It would single handedly negate the entire purpose of the new stand. but, they are an SG as much as RPB , NEE etc. What do we do about this?

- we would need to work out beforehand how many seats the SG's wanted and compare it to the number of seats likely to be available in a new stand. biggest issue - what if the SG's don't have enough people to fill up the stand, what does the club do with the empty seats that have been designated SG seats but don't have SG members to go in them? needs to be a solution to this before the plan could be put in motion.

- if we ever reach the stage where we have more SG seating demand than seats in the new stand, the plans need to allow for some kind of sensible expansion of BMO Field which won't replicate the original splintering of the SG's. If we do reach that stage, the FO will want to expand the stadium generally, not just for SG's, but we need a way to not undermine the new SG stand effort should we ever get to that point.

- NO to tv's in any beer garden to replace the existing one, just have an AUDIO feed. this will drive people abck to their seats to not miss the action and allow them to keep an ear on the game, rather than have half the east stand (or whatever) hanging round watching tv at the game with no eye on the real action. you can watch the game on tv with a beer at home or in the pub! not what BMO Field is for, imho.

Just my list of things to think through. How the thing is actually built I'll leave to engineers and architects! :D

redangeldragnet
07-30-2009, 10:38 AM
slightly off topic but did anyone else notice how empty the private boxes on the west end were?

T-Bird
07-30-2009, 10:42 AM
Love the temp stands! I hope they build something permanent

Yohan
07-30-2009, 10:58 AM
- how to set it up? the FO will not relinquish control of the seats to SG's, but what about adding in a pre-approval process before the tickets are issued? pain in the ass for the first season, but easy to maintain after that, and the SG's would be responsible for maintaining their own waiting lists and seating maps after the original pre-approval process.

- how many seats does each SG get and who decides this, and how?

- how are seats allocated within each SG (this is a SG issue rather than one for the club, but the SG's are going to have to provide a map of who sits where to the club so that tickets can be issued accordingly I would think, not a big headache for the club since most will already be existing SSH's and the club can just transfer details, btu big headache for the SG's and the squabbling about who goes where)

- do we let TRN into any new SG section? Their drumming, I can tell you from experience as I sit in 118, will completely drown out the SG chants and songs. It would single handedly negate the entire purpose of the new stand. but, they are an SG as much as RPB , NEE etc. What do we do about this?

- we would need to work out beforehand how many seats the SG's wanted and compare it to the number of seats likely to be available in a new stand. biggest issue - what if the SG's don't have enough people to fill up the stand, what does the club do with the empty seats that have been designated SG seats but don't have SG members to go in them? needs to be a solution to this before the plan could be put in motion.

- if we ever reach the stage where we have more SG seating demand than seats in the new stand, the plans need to allow for some kind of sensible expansion of BMO Field which won't replicate the original splintering of the SG's. If we do reach that stage, the FO will want to expand the stadium generally, not just for SG's, but we need a way to not undermine the new SG stand effort should we ever get to that point.

I want to see SGs control those seats, if the size of the new stands turns out to be manageable size for SGs.

First, see after relocation process to see how many seats are left over. SGs buy up remainder of seats, and resell on game basis to whoever in SGs want tickets for that game on first come, first serve basis.

I do want to reduce the possibilities of any tourists getting in on the new supporter section. If non SGs want tix, they can try to buy some through SGs, but will likely have to be vouched by someone in SGs.

If the new stand is too big for SGs to control, designated few sections in the end as GA section, and DO NOT sell them as seasons tickets. So that if SGs want to expand, they can take those sections as well in the future.

The Kingpin
07-30-2009, 11:06 AM
If there is an option to have the Beer Garden where it was today on a more permanent basis (in front of the food building) that would be brilliant. I thought it was great there, good amount of space, not in the main throughways (so easier to line up and get beer without stopping people from walking through), and a good vibe. Sure, you can't see the game from there anymore, but I'd rather people be in their seats to watch the game anyway (maybe just have a few more TVs around so people can watch the game when getting beer).

And the north end stands looked great. If you could build real stands there, and get rid of those buildings (what are they anyway? boxes?) it would make BMO much more intimidating, and help spread chants better (sound tended to escape from the north end). We want a bowl, a place where no matter where the opponents face, they sea a tide of red. So, Paul, I'll help you get started on your checklist for the offseason:

1) Real grass
2) North end stands
3) Give north end stands to the supporters groups to control (err, and me, since I'm not actually affiliated with any of them...)
4) A winning team

A key notion for non-affiliated passionate supporters. The stands look great, I agree that it should be a supporters section - but group affiliation should not be the condemning factor. I don't think all the groups leadership will be able to make all the right choices. But, I must say, it would be great to have this addition. Paul and I may be all friendly again as this would be a progressive move.

Seat allocation: Ticket Rep in Conjunction with Supporters.

The Kingpin
07-30-2009, 11:10 AM
Paul

There is clearly support good support for a permanent North Stand and there are some good ideas in this thread on maybe using it to get the SG's under one umbrella. I think that's a great idea, but my biggest concern would be to make sure any move to assemble the SG's is properly thought through, from all angles. For example:

- we've ended up with the SG's splintered once, we should make sure it doesn't happen again in any expansion model. assembling them in a new SG only stand would be a good solution.

- how to set it up? the FO will not relinquish control of the seats to SG's, but what about adding in a pre-approval process before the tickets are issued? pain in the ass for the first season, but easy to maintain after that, and the SG's would be responsible for maintaining their own waiting lists and seating maps after the original pre-approval process.

- how many seats does each SG get and who decides this, and how?

- how are seats allocated within each SG (this is a SG issue rather than one for the club, but the SG's are going to have to provide a map of who sits where to the club so that tickets can be issued accordingly I would think, not a big headache for the club since most will already be existing SSH's and the club can just transfer details, btu big headache for the SG's and the squabbling about who goes where)

- do we let TRN into any new SG section? Their drumming, I can tell you from experience as I sit in 118, will completely drown out the SG chants and songs. It would single handedly negate the entire purpose of the new stand. but, they are an SG as much as RPB , NEE etc. What do we do about this?

- we would need to work out beforehand how many seats the SG's wanted and compare it to the number of seats likely to be available in a new stand. biggest issue - what if the SG's don't have enough people to fill up the stand, what does the club do with the empty seats that have been designated SG seats but don't have SG members to go in them? needs to be a solution to this before the plan could be put in motion.

- if we ever reach the stage where we have more SG seating demand than seats in the new stand, the plans need to allow for some kind of sensible expansion of BMO Field which won't replicate the original splintering of the SG's. If we do reach that stage, the FO will want to expand the stadium generally, not just for SG's, but we need a way to not undermine the new SG stand effort should we ever get to that point.

- NO to tv's in any beer garden to replace the existing one, just have an AUDIO feed. this will drive people abck to their seats to not miss the action and allow them to keep an ear on the game, rather than have half the east stand (or whatever) hanging round watching tv at the game with no eye on the real action. you can watch the game on tv with a beer at home or in the pub! not what BMO Field is for, imho.

Just my list of things to think through. How the thing is actually built I'll leave to engineers and architects! :D

Some excellent thoughts. I stand by most of this thinking. When I return from the UK, it would be sad to think I couldn't stand in a supporters section because I'm unaffiliated. I also think that anyone that had 112/113/127 tickets (non-scalpers) should have first right of refusal. I'm not overly concerned with seat allocation as no one sits in their allocated seats anyway. If anything, just make it a supporters section "pass".

The Kingpin
07-30-2009, 11:13 AM
I want to see SGs control those seats, if the size of the new stands turns out to be manageable size for SGs.

First, see after relocation process to see how many seats are left over. SGs buy up remainder of seats, and resell on game basis to whoever in SGs want tickets for that game on first come, first serve basis.

I do want to reduce the possibilities of any tourists getting in on the new supporter section. If non SGs want tix, they can try to buy some through SGs, but will likely have to be vouched by someone in SGs.

If the new stand is too big for SGs to control, designated few sections in the end as GA section, and DO NOT sell them as seasons tickets. So that if SGs want to expand, they can take those sections as well in the future.

So three/four people would decide who would have allocation based on their views of what a supporter is... Sounds VERY tumultuous. I'm not sure if a bias can be avoided. i.e: If Rooney, who I think is awesome by the way, wants to sit front row... Do you give it to him because he is RPB VP? That is an unfair bias. And as has been mentioned, there are top flight supporters who are not affiliated. What do you do with them?

H Bomb
07-30-2009, 11:16 AM
SG's control of the North End could be great and it could backfire. It would mean they are chanting towards the likes of my section, meaning that we might actually be able to hear you and what you are saying. It also means that the South End could fill up with Families and old ladies, who would take away from the type of Atmosphere that part of the stadium is meant to have. As long as no one takes away my 115 seats though, y'all can do what ya like

BuSaPuNk
07-30-2009, 11:26 AM
Some excellent thoughts. I stand by most of this thinking. When I return from the UK, it would be sad to think I couldn't stand in a supporters section because I'm unaffiliated. I also think that anyone that had 112/113/127 tickets (non-scalpers) should have first right of refusal. I'm not overly concerned with seat allocation as no one sits in their allocated seats anyway. If anything, just make it a supporters section "pass".

I was thinking the same thing. Passes and unassigned seats. Passes could have barcodes for SSH, Partial pack holders, single games seats. The passes also have photo id that your a card carrying member of RPB, NEE, U-Sector, TRN ect.

H Bomb
07-30-2009, 11:32 AM
^^ another problem that could arise. TRN, Ultras, Those Hamilton guys with the funny name. Who gets in the sections, and how are they seperated (we all know this would be needed as the plebs love their violence). Im not convinced any of this would happen but it would be interesting

Yohan
07-30-2009, 11:38 AM
^^ another problem that could arise. TRN, Ultras, Those Hamilton guys with the funny name. Who gets in the sections, and how are they seperated (we all know this would be needed as the plebs love their violence). Im not convinced any of this would happen but it would be interesting
those unaffliated groups can get in touch with SG execs with a nominal roll of their group members, so that they can get in.

I like this idea of a pass as well.

as for figuring out who's a scalper or not, it's really hard to prove that, so i'm not in favour of Kingpin's idea of giving unaffliated 127, 112, 113 first dibs.

Chewy Unikronik
07-30-2009, 11:38 AM
IMO, it's time to knock down those two buildings at the north end and build a proper stand to close off that incomplete side of the stadium.

Yes! Because it's just that easy... :hump:

ecospice
07-30-2009, 11:41 AM
If there is an option to have the Beer Garden where it was today on a more permanent basis (in front of the food building) that would be brilliant. I thought it was great there, good amount of space, not in the main throughways (so easier to line up and get beer without stopping people from walking through), and a good vibe. Sure, you can't see the game from there anymore, but I'd rather people be in their seats to watch the game anyway (maybe just have a few more TVs around so people can watch the game when getting beer).

As an avid after game beer garden attendee, I totally agree with this.

The beer garden and the taps being moved outside the North end was much better than the usual arrangement. It had a better vibe and, more important, allowed the North stands (temporary as they are) to be built which improved the stadium tremendously.

Hopefully the City and MLSE will get together and formulate a plan for permanent stands in the North - hopefully that will include demolition of the two buildings which house private boxes - I am sure that even more private boxes could be incorporated into a new North end grandstand...

For those that want to see the game from the beer garden large TVs could be installed.

H Bomb
07-30-2009, 11:41 AM
those unaffliated groups can get in touch with SG execs with a nominal roll of their group members, so that they can get in.

I like this idea of a pass as well.

as for figuring out who's a scalper or not, it's really hard to prove that, so i'm not in favour of Kingpin's idea of giving unaffliated 127, 112, 113 first dibs.

Im also reffering to space, and when it runs out....Fire code will be your enemy in this. And yeah, Unafiliated in 112/113/127? why would they be given space if it was a SG's stand?

PJC
07-30-2009, 11:44 AM
I like the north stand. Make it permanent!

Yohan
07-30-2009, 11:45 AM
Im also reffering to space, and when it runs out....Fire code will be your enemy in this.
we don't know how big the new north stand will be

if it turns out to be too small, keep 127 as standing section?

ugly thought... if this does happen, away supporter section will have to be moved... and probably most logical place to put them is 112. I shudder at thought of those Crew shitpumps desecrating 112

werewolf
07-30-2009, 11:49 AM
ugly thought... if this does happen, away supporter section will have to be moved... and probably most logical place to put them is 112. I shudder at thought of those Crew shitpumps desecrating 112

The most logical would be the eastern side of the north stand, near where they are now, but more isolated.

Yohan
07-30-2009, 11:52 AM
The most logical would be the eastern side of the north stand, near where they are now, but more isolated.
huh? if the SGs are taking over north stands, and you want to put away supporters near the SGs?

werewolf
07-30-2009, 11:55 AM
no. I don't want the away supporters to be anywhere near the supporters groups.

Yohan
07-30-2009, 11:56 AM
no. I don't want the away supporters to be anywhere near the supporters groups.
hence my thought that best put away supporters in 112, since that'd likely be most available seating for away supporters after SG moves out

TFC_Toon
07-30-2009, 11:57 AM
A Northstand is the only logical answer IMO to consolidate the support, it just simply needs to happen.

mdc 77
07-30-2009, 11:57 AM
That whole beer garden annoys the hell of me. Go to your seat, watch the game, I hate it when I look around and always see empty seats, and then look down at the beer garden and people are standing there in their droves. Takes away from the atmosphere. I appreciate some day trippers there for the experience want to stand with their mates, and maybe couldn't get a ticket together, but if we are MLS team, not some Sunday pub team. Go to your seat and watch the game, have a beer at your seat or at 1/2 time.
Watch our games on tv, you'll always see empty seats, yet these games are sell outs. Been a season ticket holder at Man Utd in the past, you go to watch football, have a beer before the game, half tiem and after the game.
Make the temp seating permanent, and lets sort out the real fans


I thought the stands looked good, completed the stadium. However, I like watching matches from the beer garden. I'm in 105 row 20, if I can watch the match from the rail behind the goal in the beer garden i'm there. Are we really going to start tell people where they should be watching the match from? As long as its part of the stadium and open to view games from people will be there, it's a great chance to get close to field level.

werewolf
07-30-2009, 11:59 AM
hence my thought that best put away supporters in 112, since that'd likely be most available seating for away supporters after SG moves out

I don't care for internet lingo but, epic fail.

Cristiano14
07-30-2009, 12:06 PM
If you make a legit north stand, you can 'start new' on it and give all the tickets and control to the SGs, and then it would be entirely SG's. That would probably mean an exodus from south end to north though.

jabbronies
07-30-2009, 12:21 PM
a potential problem with moving the south end to the north end is that the people in 111-110 end up being left out in the cold.

We are in those sections for a good reason - the sightlines for the game is much better than being at an end.

So what happens to those two sections once the supporters all move north?? Are we given an option to either move to the south in a simliar part of the stadium - 105-106? or loose our right to stand and support the way we've always been doing by staying in our location??

wzhxvy
07-30-2009, 12:29 PM
I am trying to balance the need to make money with "purity"...which is why I suggested the HUGE screen or projection of the game in a beer garden behind the North stand. If I was MLSE though...I would sell seats into the beer garden...basically as a STH you can choose to sit in the beer garden one game...if you do..you will be issued a beer garden ticket which automatically makes your STH seat available for sale and MLSE will resell on ticket exchange or ticketmast That way MLSE makes money essentially selling the seat twice :) Paul, I want commission on this idea !

And yes...we have butts in seats all the time vs. the current issues.

Hitcho
07-30-2009, 12:47 PM
a potential problem with moving the south end to the north end is that the people in 111-110 end up being left out in the cold.

We are in those sections for a good reason - the sightlines for the game is much better than being at an end.

So what happens to those two sections once the supporters all move north?? Are we given an option to either move to the south in a simliar part of the stadium - 105-106? or loose our right to stand and support the way we've always been doing by staying in our location??

This is a fair point and shuold be added to my list of issues to think through (see above).

I guess the answer is, the SG's have to decide whether they are going to move en masse, and if they do, anyone who affiliates with them has the option of moving at the same time, or staying put. if you stay put you run the risk of being left in a family/seated section.

it's all a bit messy, hence my plea to Paul above that EVERYTHING gets throught throguh in detail. This can't just be built with a view to sorting out the issues later. SG's would need to be consulted right from the planning stages to flush out issues and have them all resolved 9as best as possible) before the design and amount of seats etc is actually decided on. That would need votes on all the forums as to who is going and who is not, which in turn would need some detailed proposals and consequence lists to be put together first.

It's a great idea in principle, but the execution is going to take a huge amount of work and planning to get it done properly.

boban
07-30-2009, 01:00 PM
any one know how many rows?
approximately how many people did it hold?
I think it was between 500-600.
Thats what it looked like.

Ultra & Proud
07-30-2009, 01:03 PM
There are probably enough SGs stuck in crap sections (like me) or who have those half season packs that could fill that section. I wouldn't want the whole south end to go to shit with everyone leaving and I think having a solid SG presence at both the north & south ends would be awesome.

boban
07-30-2009, 01:03 PM
Another good thing: if we make a permanent change there we will be saying good bye to the whole notion of concerts in a pretty significant way.
One concert in 3 yrs. It's not like that business plan was working.
Plus, across the street there is possibly the best big concert venue in S. Ont..

There is a lot of dead space in front of the patio too that can be used better.
You mean behind the net up to where the stands were last night?

boban
07-30-2009, 01:07 PM
needs to be right to the railing

get rid of those stupid tables
+1 :thumbsup:

morgank1986
07-30-2009, 01:11 PM
We're forgetting how important the south east corner is to the rest of the supporters section. Most times chants coming out of the south east are able to spread across the south. In all honesty if a permant north stand becomes a reality I think it might be better to offer those in the south end who aren't as into the chanting and singing and atmopshere of the south to move into the north stands, and allow SG members who don't have a seat in the south to take those now vacant seats.

boban
07-30-2009, 01:14 PM
Maybe 2000 people? Yesterday's stand was 1000 I believe.
Where did you get that from.
It looked no more than 10 rows with about 50-60 people per row.
Thats about 600 max.
Having said that the perm. stand should be about 2,500 and everyone from the SSG in south end who is RPB, USector, or any other group should be moved there. Same goes for the one in the east stand in the south part.
Put everyone there and you get a massive wave of support. But also real coordination of chants has to happen at that point so everyone is on the same page.

boban
07-30-2009, 01:16 PM
We're forgetting how important the south east corner is to the rest of the supporters section. Most times chants coming out of the south east are able to spread across the south. In all honesty if a permant north stand becomes a reality I think it might be better to offer those in the south end who aren't as into the chanting and singing and atmopshere of the south to move into the north stands, and allow SG members who don't have a seat in the south to take those now vacant seats.
It's been discussed and that will never happen. People would say they want to be there for the atmosphere, while at the same time not contributing to it.
Only possibly solution is for Supports move to the section and control ticket sales to keep scalpers and tourists out.

jabbronies
07-30-2009, 01:19 PM
We're forgetting how important the south east corner is to the rest of the supporters section. Most times chants coming out of the south east are able to spread across the south. In all honesty if a permant north stand becomes a reality I think it might be better to offer those in the south end who aren't as into the chanting and singing and atmopshere of the south to move into the north stands, and allow SG members who don't have a seat in the south to take those now vacant seats.

I think one of the main purposes of getting the supporters to move to the North is so that the supporters have full control over who goes into that new section.

Right now there are scalpers and non-supporter members in the south causing shit or not doing anything at all. Especially scalpers, won't want to give up those seats and move to the north.

werewolf
07-30-2009, 01:22 PM
It is a sad day when scalpers contribute to dictating supporters plans. Nice to see the authorities taking the appropriate measures...

redcard
07-30-2009, 01:23 PM
It's been discussed and tht w ill never happen. People would say they want to be there for the atmosphere, while at the same time not contributing to it.
Only possibly solution is for Supports move to the section and control ticket sales to keep scalpers and tourists out.

SGs control the seats so who will decide where you sit/stand...dont forget you are paying for the seats so i am assuming you would like to have a say in where you sit...

the more i think of it, if SGs control the seats either in the north/south there would be conflicts...

jabbronies
07-30-2009, 01:24 PM
Solution: Flip the stadium!

- Have the people in 110, 111 do a full swap with the 104,105 section.
- Give people in 109 and 106 the option to swap sections - in case there are people who don't (do) want to be that close to the supporters section
- Give the North End to the supporters groups to control.
- Keep 127 as is.

boban
07-30-2009, 01:25 PM
SGs control the seats so who will decide where you sit/stand...dont forget you are paying for the seats so i am assuming you would like to have a say in where you sit...

the more i think of it, if SGs control the seats either in the north/south there would be conflicts...
It's done in Seattle, doing it in Phillie, and more to come.
They have no issues. What's your beef?

Steve
07-30-2009, 01:28 PM
It's been discussed and tht w ill never happen. People would say they want to be there for the atmosphere, while at the same time not contributing to it.
Only possibly solution is for Supports move to the section and control ticket sales to keep scalpers and tourists out.

The only thing that concerns me is what level of control will the supporter's groups have? I mean, let's say I manage to get a season ticket there, and give up my tickets in 223. Now, after a few games, the supporters in the north end decide I am not "ultra" enough (or they don't like the way I'm looking at them all cockeyed, or whatever the case may be). They decide to ban me from the north end (since they have that power). So... now what? Do I lose my season's tickets? Do I get money back for the remaining games? Does MLSE save some season tickets in the south end, so if I do get kicked out of the north, I can go there for the remaining games?

Essentially, it would seem risky to me to put your trust in the supporter's groups, because they don't have the same written rules as BMO, so you never know when you're going to break them.

I guess the alternative is for supporter's groups to only have a say at the beginning of the season, and the end of the season. So after a season, you can be voted out, but then BMO can relocate you (forcibly) to another section (you would get first dibs on relocation).

I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, I think it could be a great thing for the supporters, but since I'm not one of the "cool kids" in any of the supporter's groups, I question my ability to partake in this new found fun.

boban
07-30-2009, 01:33 PM
The only thing that concerns me is what level of control will the supporter's groups have? I mean, let's say I manage to get a season ticket there, and give up my tickets in 223. Now, after a few games, the supporters in the north end decide I am not "ultra" enough (or they don't like the way I'm looking at them all cockeyed, or whatever the case may be). They decide to ban me from the north end (since they have that power). So... now what? Do I lose my season's tickets? Do I get money back for the remaining games? Does MLSE save some season tickets in the south end, so if I do get kicked out of the north, I can go there for the remaining games?

Essentially, it would seem risky to me to put your trust in the supporter's groups, because they don't have the same written rules as BMO, so you never know when you're going to break them.

I guess the alternative is for supporter's groups to only have a say at the beginning of the season, and the end of the season. So after a season, you can be voted out, but then BMO can relocate you (forcibly) to another section (you would get first dibs on relocation).

I'm not saying it shouldn't happen, I think it could be a great thing for the supporters, but since I'm not one of the "cool kids" in any of the supporter's groups, I question my ability to partake in this new found fun.
Simply but the SG and FO work together to get the tickets in the supporters hands.
You are member of this board and contribute. Test 1 passed. Front office has your info where you sit currently. Test 2 passed. Now if you choose you move to the north where u know you stand and cheer.
Don't want to cheer? Then don't move to the North. You should answer that part yourself before you make the commitment to move.

Hitcho
07-30-2009, 01:36 PM
Steve - i think all your points are good ones, but could probably be solved pretty easily.

The answer lies in not giving "control" of any new SG dedicated stand to the SG's, that would lead to all kinds of problems. Instead, MLSE retains control the way they do with SSH's now, but an "approval" stage is added to the season ticket issuing process. So, before you can relocate into the new stand, you have to be approved by one of the recognised SG's (the club would have to decide which ones are recognised). If you get approved, you;re in and can only be kicked out again by the club for on the same basis as you can be now. All renewals are done though the club, as they are now, and you only deal with the club and with your ticket rep. once the SG's have approved someone to get into the stand, their influence ends completely.

if you are not approved, then you just hang on to your existing seats and get the opption to relcoate anywhere else in the stadium on the usual basis.

in future seasons, relocations intot he SG stand are handled in the same way.

that way, no-one has to take the risk of being booted out of the SSH club by the SG's. We don;t want to give the likes of Jack too much power now, do we!! :D:D:D

Steve
07-30-2009, 01:37 PM
Simply but the SG and FO work together to get the tickets in the supporters hands.
You are member of this board and contribute. Test 1 passed. Front office has your info where you sit currently. Test 2 passed. Now if you choose you move to the north where u know you stand and cheer.
Don't want to cheer? Then don't move to the North. You should answer that part yourself before you make the commitment to move.

Oh, I understand, I just meant that since it's in the hands of a few people, what happens when people DO lose their privilages? Like, if someone is kicked out, do they lose their seasons and go back on the waiting list, do they get moved, etc.

Steve
07-30-2009, 01:38 PM
Steve - i think all your points are good ones, but could probably be solved pretty easily.

The answer lies in not giving "control" of any new SG dedicated stand to the SG's, that would lead to all kinds of problems. Instead, MLSE retains control the way they do with SSH's now, but an "approval" stage is added to the season ticket issuing process. So, before you can relocate into the new stand, you have to be approved by one of the recognised SG's (the club would have to decide which ones are recognised). If you get approved, you;re in and can only be kicked out again by the club for on the same basis as you can be now. All renewals are done though the club, as they are now, and you only deal with the club and with your ticket rep. once the SG's have approved someone to get into the stand, their influence ends completely.

if you are not approved, then you just hang on to your existing seats and get the opption to relcoate anywhere else in the stadium on the usual basis.

in future seasons, relocations intot he SG stand are handled in the same way.

that way, no-one has to take the risk of being booted out of the SSH club by the SG's. We don;t want to give the likes of Jack too much power now, do we!! :D:D:D

Right, and if this is the case, I think it would be much better. I mean, yes, there will be mistakes made still, but as long as the mistakes are minimal, it would still make for a much better section.

werewolf
07-30-2009, 01:39 PM
if you are not approved, then you just hang on to your existing seats and get the opption to relcoate anywhere else in the stadium on the usual basis.

in future seasons, relocations intot he SG stand are handled in the same way.

that way, no-one has to take the risk of being booted out of the SSH club by the SG's. We don;t want to give the likes of Jack too much power now, do we!! :D:D:D

That doesn't sound that different then the current situation, except there would no scalpers. Wouldn't it just be easier to enforce the law, and take away the season tickets of scalpers? I don't imagine its that hard to figure out which ones that includes, esp. if their tickets were ever collectively confiscated prior to one game.

Hitcho
07-30-2009, 01:39 PM
Oh, I understand, I just meant that since it's in the hands of a few people, what happens when people DO lose their privilages? Like, if someone is kicked out, do they lose their seasons and go back on the waiting list, do they get moved, etc.

in my model, the SG's don;t have that level of power. the only influence they get is to say to the club "yes, this person can have a season ticket in the SG stand". if any fo the SG's let you in, you;re in. ie, NEE cannot veto RPB applciants, and vice versa.

any other system would not sit well with MLSe, they are not going to give up control of one of their own stands and security and other issues would pop up like crazy as well.

wzhxvy
07-30-2009, 01:40 PM
I am Ok with the SGs being in "control"...but I would want the seats to be by name only...ie you have to have ID to sit there that shows you as a supporter that has seats in that section...that will prevent the bringing of friends, family, girlfriends you are trying to impress in the section...I know this is not popular thinking but if its going to be for supporters..then its for supporters...only YOU can sit there and if YOU cant sit there no one else can...drastic but solves many issues.

Also...no seats...sitting is not option...if you want comfort sit elsewhere

Hitcho
07-30-2009, 01:50 PM
That doesn't sound that different then the current situation, except there would no scalpers. Wouldn't it just be easier to enforce the law, and take away the season tickets of scalpers? I don't imagine its that hard to figure out which ones that includes, esp. if their tickets were ever collectively confiscated prior to one game.

several major issues with this plan:

1 - define "scalper": there are all kinds of grey areas here. I know people who have season tickets in different parts of the stadium, and routinely sell some off and sit in the remaining seats, varying game to game where they sit. this causes nomdaic fans in some sections of the ground. shoukld they have their tickets taken away? what about the guy who lives some distance away and can only make some games, so puts the rest of his tickets on e-bay at non-inflated prices? or the family who hardly turn up to any games. these all cause empty seats and/or journeyman fans, whcih i think is the issue you are trying to solve. plus, some scalpers end up sellgin to noisy, pasisonate fans. so what is the issue we are really trying to solve here? removal of scalpers or more consistent fan support in SG sections? the answer is probably both but we need t be careful about we're actually setting about doing.

2 - not as easy as it sounds for the club to just start cancelling tickets on what would inevitably be a pretty arbitrary basis and selling them on. not sure if there are legal issues or not, btu there are certainly comemrcial ones. it would look very, very bad for MLSE in some sections (not hardcore fans, but that's it) and they'd get some calls wrong and there would be an almighty shit storm about it. plus how are disgruntled punters going to react to this if they own tickets to other MLSE owned franchises? the knock on effect for MLSE is too great and too risky.

3 - even if you cancel the scalpers' seats (assuming you can define who they really are, outside the obvious few), how do you then sell on the tickets? there are more scalpers on the waiting lists I expect, an always will be. or families might come in and no replace the scalped seats with the kind fo fan support we are looking for in a SG stand. or they might go to the guy who hardly turns up and sells his tickets at face value every week to different people. end rsult is the problem is not actually solved.

whereas, if you build a new north stand and say to the SG's "right, only people you guys pre-approve will be granted season tickets in this stand", but after that they are SSH's of MLSE and we deal with them as usual, then you end up with a dedicated SG stand and no-one runs the risk of being screwed over by falling out with a SG etc.

the only issue is what happens to unused seats if there are not enough "approved" SG members. that needs some thinking, but I am sure a sensible solution could be devised, perhaps offering the tickets on a game by game basis to the public - since these are ikely to be the back rows of seats, the SG;'s will not be diluted. then, next season, if more SG approved people want to get in, those seats can be made into SSH seats on an SG approval basis. and so on, until the stand is full.

Hitcho
07-30-2009, 01:54 PM
I am Ok with the SGs being in "control"...but I would want the seats to be by name only...ie you have to have ID to sit there that shows you as a supporter that has seats in that section...that will prevent the bringing of friends, family, girlfriends you are trying to impress in the section...I know this is not popular thinking but if its going to be for supporters..then its for supporters...only YOU can sit there and if YOU cant sit there no one else can...drastic but solves many issues.

Also...no seats...sitting is not option...if you want comfort sit elsewhere

too hardcore dude. SG's may like this, but MLSE will not. plus there are two big concerns here:

1. empty seats at games if the actual people on the list cannot attend, which is a backwards step from where we are now since most SG people give their tickets to other fans rather than have the seats empty if they cannot go, plus if people buy as a pair/couple and one person cannot go then the other may not go either if they are not allowed to bring a friend along instead so even more empty seats, plus a lot of people in the SG areas are mates of SSHs and this would cut them out of attending games even though they are the kind of people we would WANT to have in a new SG stand.

2. security and safety - a terraced stand will not go down well, and crushes are likely if TFC score in big games etc. cannot see this happening, it's far mroe likely to be an all seater stand.

Toronto_Bhoy
07-30-2009, 02:13 PM
They sure did try that. I looked at my friends and gave them a stern warning about joining in (loud enough that the people around me didn't try it either).

Self policing does work!

Way to go, Eustacchio!

BuSaPuNk
07-30-2009, 02:21 PM
too hardcore dude. SG's may like this, but MLSE will not. plus there are two big concerns here:

1. empty seats at games if the actual people on the list cannot attend, which is a backwards step from where we are now since most SG people give their tickets to other fans rather than have the seats empty if they cannot go, plus if people buy as a pair/couple and one person cannot go then the other may not go either if they are not allowed to bring a friend along instead so even more empty seats, plus a lot of people in the SG areas are mates of SSHs and this would cut them out of attending games even though they are the kind of people we would WANT to have in a new SG stand.

2. security and safety - a terraced stand will not go down well, and crushes are likely if TFC score in big games etc. cannot see this happening, it's far mroe likely to be an all seater stand.

It has to be a seater stand anyways to uphold it's FIFA status doesn't it??

Chewy Unikronik
07-30-2009, 02:23 PM
What exactly makes one a supporter? If an individual is not affiliated with any particular group, would they then be excluded from being a part of this move?

Personally, I think that moving the entire supporters section is a bit extreme, to say the least. And even if the groups "control" the tickets, suckas will still have the means of making their way into the area.

There are other more feasible solutions. Also, keep in mind that there isn't even a north stand to move to, and not likely to happen anytime soon.

Hitcho
07-30-2009, 03:42 PM
^ chewy, re the stand, see mlsintoronto's post earlier i this thread. it seems t be on the table, although may not come to fruition of course.

re what makes a supporter, that is NOT the debate and we don;t need to have it here. the ida is to have people affiliated with the recognised SG's all sat together in one new stand. that doesn;t mean all the "supporters" will be sat there and anyone outside is a "non-supporter". plenty of people on these boards may wish to stay where they are. and anyway, i'd like to think that other sections of the ground would remain designated supporter sections so that SG's could grow.

the point is, if you don't want to sit in the SG stand, then don't, it;s not a reflection of anything. however, if you do, the SG's have the ability to stop you, primarily to weed out scalpers and allow the section ot be stocked full of noisy fans and harness their energy, if they want to be there.

I_AM_CANADIAN
07-30-2009, 03:49 PM
I'd love a full north stand and have been saying so since the beginning... Screw the beer garden and finish the stadium. I understand that a lot of people prefer standing in the beer garden to staying in their regular seats, but for a non-SG area, last night the temporary north stand looked pretty awesome.

mike
07-30-2009, 04:00 PM
we should just get them to move all the damned scalpers to the north end instead

profit89
07-30-2009, 05:18 PM
I'd love a full north stand and have been saying so since the beginning... Screw the beer garden and finish the stadium. I understand that a lot of people prefer standing in the beer garden to staying in their regular seats, but for a non-SG area, last night the temporary north stand looked pretty awesome.

Agree. It looked fantastic.

Toronto Ruffrider
07-30-2009, 11:04 PM
we should just get them to move all the damned scalpers to the north end instead

If by moving them to the north end you mean locking them in the Food Building, then I agree.

TheKing7
07-30-2009, 11:17 PM
I must say the stand did make the stadium look much better (althought it did resemble crew stadium :rolleyes:).....

random question but were these stands jsut grabbed from the indy?

morgank1986
07-31-2009, 01:51 AM
How many do you reckon the temporary North stands could hold? There is the potential that given the amount of people who wish to move to the North from the South there won't be enough seats to accomedate all those who want to move.

I'd hate for it to come down to some sort of selection process amongst the members of the supporters groups and those not affiliated who want to move to the north. There is the potential to leave people behind in the south if those move takes place.

Dust2
07-31-2009, 02:02 AM
It's done in Seattle, doing it in Phillie, and more to come.
They have no issues. What's your beef?

You're wrong. They are doing it in Philly (2000 seats set aside solely for supporters groups). Sons of Ben membership is 4800+ as of this week (fyi).

But they are not doing it in Seattle.

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1116865
Should Seattle have a Supporter Section solely for supporters like Philadelphia does?

Seattle has set aside three sections 121,122,123 as General Admission for the Supporters Section. However, 60% of those are non-supporters because people buy tickets there because it's inexpensive. So in Seattle's designated Supporters Section, the break down is 40% supporters and 60% non-supporters.

morgank1986
07-31-2009, 02:03 AM
I think that 114-118 take cues from the south east corner in terms of singing. If RPB and U-Sector move out of the south to the north I worry that the rest of the south will quiet down considerably.

What if only 1 group moved out of the south? Say U-Sector. The vacated U-Sector seats can be filled by RPB who are scattered throughout BMO and those on the waiting list. In this situation We would have both sides of the field going.

Cashcleaner
07-31-2009, 02:17 AM
^ Hmmmm... that could work. It really wouldn't matter which group made the move because there will be plenty of space in the North End.

The only thing is that having U-Sector in close proximity is one of the best things we got going for us in the South End. The two groups seem to be getting more and more in-sync as the weeks go by. Would it be worth it to break up what we've collectively created?

I dunno. Interesting idea.

Yohan
07-31-2009, 02:19 AM
I'd be in for any solution that kicks the tourists and scalpers out of 111, 112, 113 and bring in other SG members into those sections :p

morgank1986
07-31-2009, 02:42 AM
^ Hmmmm... that could work. It really wouldn't matter which group made the move because there will be plenty of space in the North End.

The only thing is that having U-Sector in close proximity is one of the best things we got going for us in the South End. The two groups seem to be getting more and more in-sync as the weeks go by. Would it be worth it to break up what we've collectively created?

I dunno. Interesting idea.

That's an interesting point. We have built something solid over these past years however I think that the same relationship can be made between 112-113 and the rest of the south.

It's just my opinion that a move of RPB and U-Sector to the south is a move to the side rather than forward. Essentially a move to the North might be at the expense of the rest of the south.

I should mention I sit in 115. There is a good group of us there who sing every game, but we take a lot of our cues from the songs coming out of the south. I'd hate for that to stop.

Derko
07-31-2009, 05:32 AM
fuck the beer garden. keep those fuckin stands!

Grass first, then the North End Stands, don't get off track!!
If the North End Stands become permanent first, then MLSE will 'forget' about real grass, you know how those fuckers work!!

boban
07-31-2009, 06:50 AM
I think that 114-118 take cues from the south east corner in terms of singing. If RPB and U-Sector move out of the south to the north I worry that the rest of the south will quiet down considerably.But there is no cohesion in those sections. Nobody sings on cue, or the same songs/chants for that matter. There is a scattering of SG in those sections that should be brought together.

I am in 115 also. And it's pretty bad in relation to taking cues from the 11-113 corner most nights. Too many small pockets doing their own thing.

boban
07-31-2009, 06:53 AM
Grass first, then the North End Stands, don't get off track!!
If the North End Stands become permanent first, then MLSE will 'forget' about real grass, you know how those fuckers work!!
And don't forget to add a roof to that list.

The Kingpin
07-31-2009, 07:50 AM
Im also reffering to space, and when it runs out....Fire code will be your enemy in this. And yeah, Unafiliated in 112/113/127? why would they be given space if it was a SG's stand?

I'm unaffiliated as are you. This is what I'm referring to, this doesn't make anyone less of a supporter. It's about mentality, not paying your dues. Also, If someone were not to pay their membership the following year, does that mean they have to leave the supporters area? There is way to much room for bias and error to completely give it to a few 'fans'. Let's be honest here. It would be a real convoluted situation.

FluSH
07-31-2009, 07:59 AM
^ Hmmmm... that could work. It really wouldn't matter which group made the move because there will be plenty of space in the North End.

The only thing is that having U-Sector in close proximity is one of the best things we got going for us in the South End. The two groups seem to be getting more and more in-sync as the weeks go by. Would it be worth it to break up what we've collectively created?

I dunno. Interesting idea.

You do remember that NEE is up North... :D

Moving to the NORTH would be unbeliveable in my opinion... and I am telling you... not actually I can guarantee that it would be the best thing that ever happens to BMO FIELD and RPB if we had control and brought all our members together up North.

FluSH
07-31-2009, 08:02 AM
I'm unaffiliated as are you. This is what I'm referring to, this doesn't make anyone less of a supporter. It's about mentality, not paying your dues. Also, If someone were not to pay their membership the following year, does that mean they have to leave the supporters area? There is way to much room for bias and error to completely give it to a few 'fans'. Let's be honest here. It would be a real convoluted situation.

It's not as hard as people make it out to be... in fact La Barra Brava has control over their section. Ladies and Gentlemen this is done around the world and in MLS. We have a problem in 112 that I won't get into but that could be easily taken care of if we controlled the seats... and it's not about paying your dues... never.

Hitcho
07-31-2009, 08:53 AM
Thje north stand as an SG section is a great idea. there are a lot of fans (like me) in 114 to 118 who are scattered and would join in the chanting and singing with gusto if it ever got going properly, but just get left with scraps or doing chants in mini sections because of the lack of cohesion across the south end.

The north stand idea would allow the core of 112/113 to move into a new home and then add all the scattered fans (from south end and otherwise), if it was done properly. The impact of this would be to swell the numbers of the noisy fans who were lcoated togther by as much as double, if not more. That would be HUGE. Can you imagine the effective bits of 112/113 tripled in size? We'd have a section that could make enough noise in inison for the rest of the stadium to follow along with, instead of a good pocket in one corner which gets drowned out or drifts on the wind before others can take it up.

the flip side is the south end would become a graveyard in terms of noise in all likelihood, and would be flooded with scalpers way worse than it is now. it would end up as a chape place to be full of journeyman fans who make sporadic appearances, because most of the noisy fans would be moving out. still, might be a price worth paying, and it;s no worse than we already are in terms of overall support noise levels.

brad
07-31-2009, 09:11 AM
Solution: Flip the stadium!

- Have the people in 110, 111 do a full swap with the 104,105 section.


Then you are back to forcing people to move, not giving them the option.

Cashcleaner
07-31-2009, 12:11 PM
With regards to RPB members and 112/111 and whatnot; I again have to point out the fact that there are plenty of RPB members located all over BMO Field outside of 112. And in 112 alone there are large gaps of unaffiliated fans and a few people that may not share our supporter mentality. A move to another section controlled by us would give us the opportunity to start at Row 1, Seat 1 and fill the section up and across with our members. We would be taking all the members stuck in quiet pockets around the stadium and organizing them together in one larger group.

FluSH
07-31-2009, 12:43 PM
Thje north stand as an SG section is a great idea. there are a lot of fans (like me) in 114 to 118 who are scattered and would join in the chanting and singing with gusto if it ever got going properly, but just get left with scraps or doing chants in mini sections because of the lack of cohesion across the south end.

The north stand idea would allow the core of 112/113 to move into a new home and then add all the scattered fans (from south end and otherwise), if it was done properly. The impact of this would be to swell the numbers of the noisy fans who were lcoated togther by as much as double, if not more. That would be HUGE. Can you imagine the effective bits of 112/113 tripled in size? We'd have a section that could make enough noise in inison for the rest of the stadium to follow along with, instead of a good pocket in one corner which gets drowned out or drifts on the wind before others can take it up.

the flip side is the south end would become a graveyard in terms of noise in all likelihood, and would be flooded with scalpers way worse than it is now. it would end up as a chape place to be full of journeyman fans who make sporadic appearances, because most of the noisy fans would be moving out. still, might be a price worth paying, and it;s no worse than we already are in terms of overall support noise levels.

100% agreed... especially on the flip side which is rarely mentioned...

FluSH
07-31-2009, 12:44 PM
With regards to RPB members and 112/111 and whatnot; I again have to point out the fact that there are plenty of RPB members located all over BMO Field outside of 112. And in 112 alone there are large gaps of unaffiliated fans and a few people that may not share our supporter mentality. A move to another section controlled by us would give us the opportunity to start at Row 1, Seat 1 and fill the section up and across with our members. We would be taking all the members stuck in quiet pockets around the stadium and organizing them together in one larger group.


TO THE PROMISED LAND

Hitcho
07-31-2009, 02:49 PM
With regards to RPB members and 112/111 and whatnot; I again have to point out the fact that there are plenty of RPB members located all over BMO Field outside of 112. And in 112 alone there are large gaps of unaffiliated fans and a few people that may not share our supporter mentality. A move to another section controlled by us would give us the opportunity to start at Row 1, Seat 1 and fill the section up and across with our members. We would be taking all the members stuck in quiet pockets around the stadium and organizing them together in one larger group.

Ah crap, now I'm gonna have to pay the membership fee... :D:D:D

Suds
07-31-2009, 04:31 PM
TO THE PROMISED LAND

If Moses was not allowed to enter the promised land, does that mean Jack will not be allowed to enter the north end??? :D

I_AM_CANADIAN
07-31-2009, 05:47 PM
You do remember that NEE is up North... :D

Moving to the NORTH would be unbeliveable in my opinion... and I am telling you... not actually I can guarantee that it would be the best thing that ever happens to BMO FIELD and RPB if we had control and brought all our members together up North.
Exactly... The RPB 'diaspora' scattered all over BMO gathered in one section would be absolutely amazing.

billyfly
08-06-2009, 10:26 AM
"About 1,000 seats have been added in the north end that become permanent next season”

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2009/08/06/10376046-sun.html

rocktml
08-06-2009, 10:33 AM
I hope those 1,000 are for supporters groups.......