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anto7
07-25-2009, 05:51 PM
Not sure what this could be, perhaps announcing Impact to join MLS ? !!!
The announcement is on Monday at the end of the All Star press conference. Could be big news or maybe nothing special. Here is the article.

On Monday, July 27 the MLS All-Stars press conference will take place at The Canyons Resort in Park City, Utah at 1:30 p.m. local time in the Kokopelli Ball Room 3, and will feature MLS All-Stars head coach Dominic Kinnear, Seattle Sounders midfielder Freddie Ljungberg, Everton FC head coach David Moyes and goalkeeper Tim Howard. Following the press conference, Commissioner Don Garber will make a special announcement. The MLS All-Star Press Conference will be streamed live on MLSnet.com.

Brooker
07-25-2009, 05:54 PM
can't wait. :D

Yohan
07-25-2009, 05:59 PM
the special announcement will involve Garber explaining why David Beckham is not in the all stars game.

lulz

DigzTFC!
07-25-2009, 06:03 PM
Probably just talk about Portland's stadium financing issues being resolved. Other stadium updates and some random partnership.

kodiakTFC
07-25-2009, 06:05 PM
Probably just talk about Portland's stadium financing issues being resolved. Other stadium updates and some random partnership.

I like you. I am also pessimistic with everything, this way when something sucks your ready for it and when it comes out good you get a nice surprise.

guelphguy1965
07-25-2009, 06:08 PM
Next MLS All Star game will be staged in England and they are giving away the tickets for free :noidea:

DigzTFC!
07-25-2009, 06:14 PM
I like you. I am also pessimistic with everything, this way when something sucks your ready for it and when it comes out good you get a nice surprise.

Whow. I said that because Portland was resolved last week. Montreal will get into the MLS, but I don't think it will announced on Monday.

wzhxvy
07-25-2009, 06:15 PM
He will be announcing the signing of JDG ! :-)

Detroit_TFC
07-25-2009, 06:16 PM
Garber is announcing that the Crew is moving from Columbus to Edmonton. Bill Archer bursts into flame.

H Bomb
07-25-2009, 06:17 PM
maybe they'll announce they're getting rid of the pointless dull all-star game

Lucky Strike
07-25-2009, 06:19 PM
Maybe Garber will be announcing his resignation.

Yohan
07-25-2009, 06:20 PM
Maybe Garber will be announcing his resignation.
that would be a terrible thing for this league

rocktml
07-25-2009, 06:23 PM
he will be announcing the merge of the two confrences into one table!

mmmikey
07-25-2009, 07:07 PM
he will be announcing the merge of the two confrences into one table!

That would be awesome.

Mikey
07-25-2009, 07:10 PM
Dallas franchise sold to Montreal.......:rolleyes:

Beach_Red
07-25-2009, 07:26 PM
maybe they'll announce they're getting rid of the pointless dull all-star game


If they just didn't schedule one next year there probably wouldn't be a single complaint from fans.

kodiakTFC
07-25-2009, 07:27 PM
Dallas franchise sold to Montreal.......:rolleyes:

You'll see New England go before Dallas.

kodiakTFC
07-25-2009, 07:28 PM
Whow. I said that because Portland was resolved last week. Montreal will get into the MLS, but I don't think it will announced on Monday.

I'm sorry bud, I was just joking around.

Redcoe15
07-25-2009, 07:28 PM
I'd be surprised if it was anything big.

egoodwin
07-25-2009, 08:30 PM
something big, like banning meaningless friendlies... like the one that cost us tonight

DOMIN8R
07-25-2009, 08:49 PM
Next MLS All Star game will be staged in England and they are giving away the tickets for free :noidea:

I can't get past your avatar.:D She was 19 yrs.old btw.:o

Hitcho
07-25-2009, 09:32 PM
they're not going to steal any thuinder from their precious all star game. any announcement will be about the game or about the league generically, not an individual franchise.

Cashcleaner
07-25-2009, 11:49 PM
Not postively sure what the announcement would be, but I have a feeling it has to do with the Portland bid - either good news or bad news for the franchise.

If Portland doesn't get the go-ahead for their stadium, I fully expect Montreal to get their bid approval instead.

Cristiano14
07-26-2009, 01:22 AM
He will be announcing the signing of JDG ! :-)
exactly wat i was thinking lol, new league DP:scarf:

Blizzard
07-26-2009, 02:14 AM
Garber is announcing that the Crew is moving from Columbus to Edmonton. Bill Archer bursts into flame.

Methane will do that. :flare::flare:

SilverSamurai
07-26-2009, 12:01 PM
exactly wat i was thinking lol, new league DP:scarf:
Well that sucks!
He should be playing at BMO against the Islanders if that's the case!

Kevvv
07-26-2009, 12:05 PM
He's announcing that the games will be trimmed to 80 minutes so TFC has half a chance

The Kingpin
07-26-2009, 12:31 PM
that would be a terrible thing for this league

Losing Garber would be terrible for the league???

:smilielol5: :smilielol5:

:out:

troy1982
07-26-2009, 12:40 PM
Losing Garber would be terrible for the league???

:smilielol5: :smilielol5:

:out:

He has been the best commissioners MLS could have had asked for in the last 10 years.

Based on your rants about MLS, I imagine that if you ran it, that MLS would've gone bankrupt within 5 years of starting or be another USL

Yohan
07-26-2009, 12:52 PM
Losing Garber would be terrible for the league???

:smilielol5: :smilielol5:

:out:
stick with Newcastle. probably be better for your mental health

rocker
07-26-2009, 12:55 PM
Based on your rants about MLS, I imagine that if you ran it, that MLS would've gone bankrupt within 5 years of starting or be another USL

We wouldn't even have a league cuz advertisers and investors would think Kingpin is an asshole and go elsewhere.

Parkdale
07-26-2009, 01:16 PM
kingpin bashing aside....


there's probably nothing to this announcement. There's always some kind of 'special announcement' durring the all-star break. It's really just a recap of whatever developments are currently happening in the league.

ilikemusic
07-26-2009, 02:21 PM
The big announcement is probably just some kind of sponsorship deal.

Sierra Mist has announced a ten year extension of it's All-Star Game sponsorship. MLS is proud to have this great partner on board and we look forward to providing fans of MLS and fans of great tasting beverages unprecedented thirst quenching abilities for years to come!

:rolleyes:

prizby
07-26-2009, 02:35 PM
wouldn't suprise me if it was an MLS expansion team for Montreal

mmmikey
07-26-2009, 03:03 PM
Losing Garber would be terrible for the league???

:smilielol5: :smilielol5:

:out:

i'll keep asking. why do u support an mls team?

rocker
07-26-2009, 03:35 PM
maybe he'll announce the negotiations on the new CBA are over! ummmm maybe not.

troy1982
07-26-2009, 04:18 PM
maybe he'll announce the negotiations on the new CBA are over! ummmm maybe not.

A couple of weeks ago Garber said they just began talks so i think that is unlikely unless the Players Union and MLS pretty much agreed on most matters. Also MLS usually announces expansion in the host cities.

The Kingpin
07-26-2009, 05:06 PM
So. There are 350+ million people in America. There are a great amount of top flight sports executives. There may actually be a few that understand world football. But unequivocally people suggest that Garber is the best the MLS could get. I find that rather interesting... He is the one that brought in the "classless" Beckham, amongst many other critical errors.

kodiakTFC
07-26-2009, 05:18 PM
So. There are 350+ million people in America. There are a great amount of top flight sports executives. There may actually be a few that understand world football. But unequivocally people suggest that Garber is the best the MLS could get. I find that rather interesting... He is the one that brought in the "classless" Beckham, amongst many other critical errors.

Wayne Gretzky and Michael Jordan are the greatest ever to play their respective sports and fucked up numerous times. No one is perfect Kingpin, your bound to make hundreds of mistakes but in the end your judged according to your successes. Look what Garber has done for MLS during his tenor. He brought in Beckham (you might argue a bad idea but now millions of more people know what MLS is), he expanded the league (proven lucrative), and definite potential (as seen with all right attendance and many markets looking to join the fray).

Garber has been fantastic and I welcome him to stay as long as he wants! Like I said he has made mistakes but what about the massive successes like lets say.. bringing Toronto FC into the league when many pleaded the league be American only and the Canadian market was dull. hmmm?

Beach_Red
07-26-2009, 05:34 PM
So. There are 350+ million people in America. There are a great amount of top flight sports executives. There may actually be a few that understand world football. But unequivocally people suggest that Garber is the best the MLS could get. I find that rather interesting... He is the one that brought in the "classless" Beckham, amongst many other critical errors.

What good is someone who understands world football going to be in selling soccer to 350 million Americans?

How important in all your talk about marketing is knowing your customers and your competition?

ForestGlade
07-26-2009, 07:50 PM
Wayne Gretzky and Michael Jordan are the greatest ever to play their respective sports and fucked up numerous times.

Gretzky fucked up? You have my attention

Cashcleaner
07-26-2009, 08:03 PM
^ I think by that he means his tenure in Phoenix. Jordan's fuck-up would have been trying to break into baseball.

SweetOwnGoal
07-26-2009, 10:00 PM
wouldn't suprise me if it was an MLS expansion team for Montreal

I'm hearing all kinds of things like that tonight... (http://www.24thminute.com)
I don't fully believe it, but...

Darlofletch
07-26-2009, 10:08 PM
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_12864793

A good article detailing how the league has grown under Garber. Thanks to 24th minute for the link. Things aren't perfect but they're definitely going in the right direction.

kodiakTFC
07-26-2009, 11:57 PM
Gretzky fucked up? You have my attention

He bought part of Phoenix didn't he! He played for St.Louis too!

kodiakTFC
07-26-2009, 11:58 PM
^ I think by that he means his tenure in Phoenix. Jordan's fuck-up would have been trying to break into baseball.

And coming back to play for the Wizards.

ilikemusic
07-27-2009, 01:06 AM
^ I think by that he means his tenure in Phoenix. Jordan's fuck-up would have been trying to break into baseball.

Jordan never really tried to break into baseball. He was suspended for a season for gambling but the NBA wanted to keep it quiet so as not to directly tarnish the image of the league's most famous player.

That was his fuck up.

:D

prizby
07-27-2009, 01:30 AM
^ I think by that he means his tenure in Phoenix. Jordan's fuck-up would have been trying to break into baseball.

or jordan's run with the wizzies

prizby
07-27-2009, 01:38 AM
http://www.sltrib.com/ci_12864793

A good article detailing how the league has grown under Garber. Thanks to 24th minute for the link. Things aren't perfect but they're definitely going in the right direction.

read one of the comments after the article...some idiot suggest this

"The MLS has got to give up on the European tradition of 45 minute halves. They need to move to 22.5 minute quarters and give each team one time out per half. This would give the television channels an additional 16 minutes or more of advertising without harming the integrity of the game. In Europe, television is often subsidized as well as the fact that soccer is insanely popular. This would allow US soccer to kickstart it's television exposure by providing additional revenue opportunities and increasing media exposure."

LMAO, what a tool!

The Kingpin
07-27-2009, 01:42 AM
Alright, I'lll address the issues one at a time since I don't have a lot of time.

"Garber is selling to the correct market"

Actually no he isn't. Since the inception of the league, the marketing has been to the American family. It's a strategy akin to the OHL; community marketing. The MLS has been using this strategy for close to ten years and attendance was declining because the product was not delivering. This, in my opinion, is what created the impetus to bring in Beckham. As we know Beckham is loved by young women, children, and mothers across the globe. Generically, Beckahm is disliked or not respected by the hardened football supporter, branded as a 'pretty boy'.

Now, during the run of this fantastic strategy, there was an anomaly. Toronto FC was formed... they had the money for the league, were willing to build a stadium, and had a profitable sports development background. A given some may say when you consider some of the other ownership scenarios.

What happened next? The evolution of the support culture in the league. If you take a look around the MLS, the 'support' culture is/was generally repressed. As noted, it was 'soccer moms' that were the target. But the thriving support mechanism in Toronto and eventually Seattle, has changed the strategy somewhat, to Mr. Garvers chagrin. So to suggest that Mr. Garver has been the manufacturer of a great 'marketing strategy' is quite naive. It runs parallel with the statement that TFC did the same. It was the new 'fan' that has brought on these changes. They have demanded something different; thus the MLS has been forced to change.

Parkdale
07-27-2009, 09:55 AM
The league HAS become more supporter friendly. Just ask the 'sons of Ben' in philly.
In fact, there have been many cases of Garber saying that the key growth area for
the league is in the 19-30 year old male segment. Those sound like supporters to me.
Yes you are right that these changes were brought on by fans first, and then adopted
by the league, but it would take a fool not to notice the golden egg dropped in their lap.

Beach_Red
07-27-2009, 10:13 AM
read one of the comments after the article...some idiot suggest this

"The MLS has got to give up on the European tradition of 45 minute halves. They need to move to 22.5 minute quarters and give each team one time out per half. This would give the television channels an additional 16 minutes or more of advertising without harming the integrity of the game. In Europe, television is often subsidized as well as the fact that soccer is insanely popular. This would allow US soccer to kickstart it's television exposure by providing additional revenue opportunities and increasing media exposure."

LMAO, what a tool!


Yes, and very out of date. Years ago a break in the game for TV ads was necessary. The NFL designed its game around that. Of course, that was before the remote control, 500 other channels and, most importantly, huge TVs with ads running during the action.

The fact that soccer doesn't have any breaks in the action is why its perfect for TV today.

werewolf
07-27-2009, 10:19 AM
perhaps its something to do with the playoffs, that would be nice.

The Kingpin
07-27-2009, 10:34 AM
The league HAS become more supporter friendly. Just ask the 'sons of Ben' in philly.
In fact, there have been many cases of Garber saying that the key growth area for
the league is in the 19-30 year old male segment. Those sound like supporters to me.
Yes you are right that these changes were brought on by fans first, and then adopted
by the league, but it would take a fool not to notice the golden egg dropped in their lap.

So you are agreeing with me. The fans dictated the strategy, not Garber. Thus another reason why someone who is far more savvy should be in charge, someone with a world footballing understanding. Garber has got us this far, now the MLS needs a leader who understands how to integrate with the world, not just America.

canadian_bhoy
07-27-2009, 10:40 AM
Alright, I'lll address the issues one at a time since I don't have a lot of time.

"Garber is selling to the correct market"

Actually no he isn't. Since the inception of the league, the marketing has been to the American family. It's a strategy akin to the OHL; community marketing. The MLS has been using this strategy for close to ten years and attendance was declining because the product was not delivering. This, in my opinion, is what created the impetus to bring in Beckham. As we know Beckham is loved by young women, children, and mothers across the globe. Generically, Beckahm is disliked or not respected by the hardened football supporter, branded as a 'pretty boy'.

Now, during the run of this fantastic strategy, there was an anomaly. Toronto FC was formed... they had the money for the league, were willing to build a stadium, and had a profitable sports development background. A given some may say when you consider some of the other ownership scenarios.

What happened next? The evolution of the support culture in the league. If you take a look around the MLS, the 'support' culture is/was generally repressed. As noted, it was 'soccer moms' that were the target. But the thriving support mechanism in Toronto and eventually Seattle, has changed the strategy somewhat, to Mr. Garvers chagrin. So to suggest that Mr. Garver has been the manufacturer of a great 'marketing strategy' is quite naive. It runs parallel with the statement that TFC did the same. It was the new 'fan' that has brought on these changes. They have demanded something different; thus the MLS has been forced to change.


The league HAS become more supporter friendly. Just ask the 'sons of Ben' in philly.
In fact, there have been many cases of Garber saying that the key growth area for
the league is in the 19-30 year old male segment. Those sound like supporters to me.
Yes you are right that these changes were brought on by fans first, and then adopted
by the league, but it would take a fool not to notice the golden egg dropped in their lap.

http://myiq2xu.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/scanners.jpg

The Kingpin
07-27-2009, 11:14 AM
http://myiq2xu.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/scanners.jpg
:iagree:

Pookie
07-27-2009, 11:20 AM
According to Ben Rycroft ("It's called Footy"):

An announcement on whether the league will expand in 2012 is expected today.

Beach_Red
07-27-2009, 11:23 AM
So you are agreeing with me. The fans dictated the strategy, not Garber. Thus another reason why someone who is far more savvy should be in charge, someone with a world footballing understanding. Garber has got us this far, now the MLS needs a leader who understands how to integrate with the world, not just America.


The question is are there enough of these "true fans" to support another pro league in the USA? The sports market is completely saturated so you'll be taking fans away from some other sport. In Toronto it's baseball that's losing fans. In Seattle they lost their basketball team.

You keep talking about "world football," but is there any evidence that there's a big enough market in America for world football? Sure, integrating with the rest of the world would be great, but how can you be so sure that the time is right for that now?

I think you are underestimating the level of competition for the sports dollar in America and the lack of interest in non-American sports (or really non-American anything - the USA is one of the last countries that simply refuse to watch movies with sub-titles or view foreign TV, etc..).

__wowza
07-27-2009, 11:25 AM
the press conference starts, garber looks slightly unnerved and has been reported to have not slept for days. he licks his palm to pat down his messy hair, steps towards the mic and begins to speak.

"THE"

__wowza
07-27-2009, 11:26 AM
"red Bulls"

__wowza
07-27-2009, 11:26 AM
"ARE"

__wowza
07-27-2009, 11:27 AM
"shite"

__wowza
07-27-2009, 11:28 AM
and just then, the press conference ends as quickly as it had begun. garber steps back from the mic and makes his exit.

Parkdale
07-27-2009, 11:38 AM
http://myiq2xu.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/scanners.jpg


in a way, I'm agreeing with one point and disagreeing with another.

The supporters forced a change in the league - We Agree
The league is continuing to push for soccer moms over supporters - we disagree

and the balance of the wold is restored.

The Kingpin
07-27-2009, 11:58 AM
in a way, I'm agreeing with one point and disagreeing with another.

The supporters forced a change in the league - We Agree
The league is continuing to push for soccer moms over supporters - we disagree

and the balance of the wold is restored.

Actually you agreed on all accounts as I never said that they were continuing to do so. I said the target audience paradigm shift changed due to the sales success of Toronto FC and the operations that lead to that. This had nothing to do with Garber, or TFC for that matter. It was the fans that created this scenario.

But to be honest - we'll really see how much he has bought into this shift when new stadiums open in existing markets. How will NY, etc adjust? I'm curious...

Beach_Red
07-27-2009, 12:06 PM
But to be honest - we'll really see how much he has bought into this shift when new stadiums open in existing markets. How will NY, etc adjust? I'm curious...

Me too. NY is a great market but not an easy market.

Like I said, in Toronto baseball was vulnerable and in Seattle they lost their NBA team. New York? Major teams in every sport and lots of NCAA. Philadelphia will also be tough.

I really want MLS to succeed long-term, but one of the most common things that lead many businesses (and most rival sports leagues in the USA) to fail is over-extending.

MG42
07-27-2009, 12:15 PM
from Pitch Invasion

http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/2009/07/27/mls-to-revamp-playoffs/


Yes, MLS fans’ dreams might be about to come true: Pitch Invasion has learned that the MLS Board of Governors are seriously considering a complete overhaul of the MLS playoff structure, that would both enliven the playoffs and ensure the regular season beomes a meaningful contest for first place with serious advantages gained for the post-season.

Here’s the new proposal:

The top four teams in each conference would qualify for the playoffs, with the first stage now a round robin setup in two groups of four
Each match in the group stage would be played at the home venue of the highest seeded team based on regular season performance — so the regular season winner would have three home games and no away games
The top two from each group would qualify for the semi-finals
Semi-finals would be one match, with again the highest seeded team from the regular season hosting
The final would be hosted not at a neutral venue as in the past, but at the home of the highest seeded team
At a stroke, this ensures winning the Supporters Shield for the best regular season record would give a far greater advantage than the present convoluted set-up, which does not give any real home advantage at the first round two-legged stage. Winning the regular would mean the possibility of playing every playoff game at home, a huge reward on and off the field. Suddenly, every regular season match would really matter, and the final would be something to saviour with a partisan crowd.

Does this sound familiar? Perhaps MLS has been a sneaking a peak at WPS, which has an even more favourable set-up for the regular season winner, who advances directly to host the WPS final in the playoffs.

From what I understand, the proposal on the table is being taken extremely seriously. At worst, it’s good to know MLS is committed to finding a way to make the regular season matter more. Every regular season game should feel like it really counts, and this proposal would go a long way to ensuring that.

Raging Reggie
07-27-2009, 12:28 PM
sounds like the NFL, intresting

flatpicker
07-27-2009, 12:29 PM
from Pitch Invasion

http://pitchinvasion.net/blog/2009/07/27/mls-to-revamp-playoffs/

whether or not this turns out to be true, it would be nice to think MLS is trying to do more to reward the league winner.

but the playoff format mentioned eliminates a lot of revenue for some teams by not having home games.

I don't have another playoff solution to offer though...

Parkdale
07-27-2009, 12:29 PM
It was the new 'fan' that has brought on these changes. They have demanded something different; thus the MLS has been forced to change.

you make it sound like Garber would have preferred that the change didn't happen, and he could go back to selling an alternate to baseball to soccer moms and mini-van families. I just don't think anyone would see that as a preferable alternative. Generally speaking, the 'supporter crowd' (single males, aged 18-30) have more disposable income than married families and would drop more cash on jerseys and merch. Seems like a no-brainer.

The Kingpin
07-27-2009, 12:38 PM
Parky, you are saying the same thing over and over. But it doesn't represent the point I'm trying to make here. The point is that Garber stumbled on this realisation vs. Devising it himself.

Chevy
07-27-2009, 12:59 PM
Doesn't the high level of Parity throughout the league (Shite Bulls excepted) already accomplish making each regular season game more interesting?

I don't like the fact that the supporter's shield winner can play ALL their playoff games at home. Why not make the opposition play with 10 men?

Parkdale
07-27-2009, 01:04 PM
The point is that Garber stumbled on this realisation vs. Devising it himself.

who cares where it came from?

even if he wanted it to be a pro-supporters league, it wouldn't have worked without supporters in place. If he said 'let there be supporters' no one would have came. If he tried to devise it himself, it never would have worked.

It just seems like you paint garber as someone who was resistant to this change.

Does it matter than the idea for insulin came from a moldy cheese sandwich?
nope. what matters is that someone acted on it (and to his credit, Garber has been)

Beach_Red
07-27-2009, 01:05 PM
Parky, you are saying the same thing over and over. But it doesn't represent the point I'm trying to make here. The point is that Garber stumbled on this realisation vs. Devising it himself.


How true is this revelation yet? A few fans in a couple of cities are acting like fans elsewhere in the world. Okay, but does this movement have legs, as it were?

If Garber is going to be cautious about it, who can blame him? I know you think it's a done deal, that there's some huge market of "football supporters" to be gained but I'd like to know what you base that on?

Hitcho
07-27-2009, 01:07 PM
The final should be rotated around like it is now. I'd go to an MLS Cup final at BMO Field regardless of who was playing. Otherwise, there are a number of MLS cities that will never, ever see cup final footie (us included right now).

Plus finals are supposed to be neutral and how many away fans are you really gonna get in MLS, especially if it's Houston vs Columbus or something? It would be way too partisan.

It's all piss in the wind though. If you want to make the league winner's spot mean something then scrap the play offs and just have a league winner. The MLS Cup can then become a genuine cup competition (even keeps the same name) and can run throughout the season so every team still has a chance of being in something come the end of the season, even if they tank in the league.

mmmikey
07-27-2009, 01:13 PM
mark of a good leader and manager is not whether he produces the ideas himself. its whether he listens to those around him, manages the ideas and can recognize opportunities when they arise.

we aren't trying to hire the dorky scientist to run the company, we need a man who can manage it and make the best use of the dorky scientists ideas.

BayernTFC
07-27-2009, 01:50 PM
The question is are there enough of these "true fans" to support another pro league in the USA? The sports market is completely saturated so you'll be taking fans away from some other sport. In Toronto it's baseball that's losing fans. In Seattle they lost their basketball team.

You keep talking about "world football," but is there any evidence that there's a big enough market in America for world football? Sure, integrating with the rest of the world would be great, but how can you be so sure that the time is right for that now?

I think you are underestimating the level of competition for the sports dollar in America and the lack of interest in non-American sports (or really non-American anything - the USA is one of the last countries that simply refuse to watch movies with sub-titles or view foreign TV, etc..).
I can't (and won't) speak for kingpin, but I'd like to address these comments.

If MLS concentrates on building a league designed to compete for the attention of fans with other NA sports, then they are in for a world of hurt. The poaching of fans, back and forth, by fringe attractions will only lead to fads, temporary fans and, in the end, a league that will likely go bust. Why worry about what the other sports are doing? Who cares if the Sonics leave or the Blue Jays fold? MLS should be worried about implementing a working business model that leads to sustainable profitabilty for all stakeholders. MLS should be concentrating on creating "soccer" fans. The kind of fans that are interested in the game and not a special outing or "treat" that can just as easily be a trip to the movie theatre or tickets to Disney on ice. Growth will come initially from creating true soccer fans in the U.S. and Canada. This will invariably take time. Otherwise MLS can continue to try and convince the uninformed that they are oh so close to being a legitimate contender to NFL dominance in the U.S market. A great confidence game for inflating franchise value that works for the first ones in. I wouldn't want to be someone at the bottom of that pyramid. Gimmicks like Beckham and franchise fees last only for so long.

Competing with the established teams/leagues in "world" football, or trying to attract the fans from major football markets would be a big mistake imho. Understanding how "world" football works and designing MLS to fit somewhere within the system in order to profit from player development would be a smart move. MLS should focus on home grown fans by developing home grown talent. Nothing will get butts in the seats like local boys succeeding on the pitch. Legitimacy will come to MLS when they start consistently producing the talent that the big leagues want to buy. When players see how the MLS can help them get signed by teams in the EPL, La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, etc., then more NA youth will want to stay to develop and decent players from abroad will look to come to MLS to resuscitate their careers or to get their careers off the ground.

I agree that the competition for the hearts and minds of Americans and their entertainment dollars is awe inspriring. Sports isn't just competing with other sports anymore. If I was a sports league like the MLS, I would much rather compete with the NHL than with WWE or with video games. We live in a different world, so trying to emulate the success of leagues founded in the early to mid twentieth century may not be the best strategy. Perhaps it's time to abandon the top-down strategy of significantly altering the existing product to appeal to current tastes in order to convert existing viewers of other sports, and view the environment as a clean slate where MLS can do the hard work of selling their sport in order to attract the type of fans that will come for soccer.

Beach_Red
07-27-2009, 02:06 PM
^ All good points. I don't think there is one strategy that would work for MLS but rather many at the same time.

I agree the top-down approach would fail. That was the NHL's approach. This is what MLS is trying to avoid by appealing to families. I think we make a mistake by saying, "soccer moms." What MLS is after are the kids the Moms are bringing with them, the kids who play soccer and don't see it as any different from baseball or football. My son is 9 and has been to many TFC games. He's far more interested in TFC than the Jays or the Leafs. He will be a lifelong fan. But if TFC hadn't got him early the Leaf machine would have sucked him up, and it's a small, small machine compared to the American football, baseball and basketball machines in every market in the US.

How many potential MLS customers do you think there are that aren't already fans of othr sports in the USA? How may people have made it into their twenties without an interest in the wide sports spectrum in the US who will suddenly become fans of soccer? It seems like not very many of the people who were born in the USA.

I think MLS is making good improvements and I do think the league will pass the NHL and become one of the 'big four' sports in the US - but the growth can't be rushed.

djcuse
07-27-2009, 02:39 PM
anyone else finding the feed choppy and inaudible?

looks to be fixed now

Ageroo
07-27-2009, 02:44 PM
Must be a Guyanese in charge of starting this presser......I thought it was supposed to start at 3:30?

Ageroo
07-27-2009, 02:47 PM
The same guy must be in charge of the stream.....mine keeps cutting out!!!!!!!!

Roogsy
07-27-2009, 02:47 PM
Or Latino.

:D

BayernTFC
07-27-2009, 02:58 PM
This is what MLS is trying to avoid by appealing to families. I think we make a mistake by saying, "soccer moms." What MLS is after are the kids the Moms are bringing with them, the kids who play soccer and don't see it as any different from baseball or football.
I happen to think that there should be a "family section" in all stadiums. I just don't think the focus should be on convincing "moms" to make the decision. I want to attract junior and get him to convince mommy to take him to the stadium. If she won't, then he can watch on television. I want the decision to be made by the soccer fan. At one time, mommies loved KFC. If McDonald's can do it, then why not MLS?



My son is 9 and has been to many TFC games. He's far more interested in TFC than the Jays or the Leafs. He will be a lifelong fan. But if TFC hadn't got him early the Leaf machine would have sucked him up, and it's a small, small machine compared to the American football, baseball and basketball machines in every market in the US.
Are you a soccer fan by chance? If so, then perhaps your son going to BMO didn't have anything to do with MLS or how they packaged their product? The majority of children in Canada will always play Hockey. There are a myriad of reasons, but climate alone will assure this. I will put my money on Football and Baseball attracting the hearts of most American youth into the future, no matter what MLS does.


How many potential MLS customers do you think there are that aren't already fans of othr sports in the USA?
I have no idea. Why some people like some sports, and don't others, is complex. Nascar is big in NA now. I wonder how many of those viewers watch other sports? I used to watch many different sports when I was a child. Now I watch soccer and the Leafs as long as the game is entertaining (if the Leafs are getting blown out, I turn the channel). There are lots of non-American born residents in the U.S. Not to mention about twenty million Mexican illegal immigrants.



How may people have made it into their twenties without an interest in the wide sports spectrum in the US who will suddenly become fans of soccer? It seems like not very many of the people who were born in the USA.
Who cares? If they watch other sports and are attracted to the soccer scene, then great. If they don't watch other sports and want a piece of the soccer atmosphere, wonderful. Try to change your product to suit people with the taste for another sport, then you're asking for trouble. Try to emulate the NFL, and you'll be the poor man's lesser option. Why not call it NFL soccer? MLS needs to decide what it wants to be and create its audience. People aren't going to wait around forever for league management to tinker around in the hopes that they will stumble upon what the majority of Americans will find tolerable. MLS is not the only soccer league out there.


I think MLS is making good improvements and I do think the league will pass the NHL and become one of the 'big four' sports in the US - but the growth can't be rushed.
I agree that improvements have been made and that any process will take time. However, surpassing the NHL in terms of popularity in the U.S. isn't saying much.

djcuse
07-27-2009, 03:02 PM
No wonder the MLS is not taken seriously... This webcast is a JOKE

Ageroo
07-27-2009, 03:03 PM
No wonder the MLS is not taken seriously... This webcast is a JOKE

I just gave up on it...I assume I am not the only one who had a crappy stream.

Parkdale
07-27-2009, 03:09 PM
No wonder the MLS is not taken seriously... This webcast is a JOKE


yes. the rest of the world judges us on our ability to webcast.

Beach_Red
07-27-2009, 03:12 PM
I happen to think that there should be a "family section" in all stadiums. I just don't think the focus should be on convincing "moms" to make the decision. I want to attract junior and get him to convince mommy to take him to the stadium. If she won't, then he can watch on television. I want the decision to be made by the soccer fan. At one time, mommies loved KFC. If McDonald's can do it, then why not MLS?

Are you a soccer fan by chance? If so, then perhaps your son going to BMO didn't have anything to do with MLS or how they packaged their product? The majority of children in Canada will always play Hockey. There are a myriad of reasons, but climate alone will assure this. I will put my money on Football and Baseball attracting the hearts of most American youth into the future, no matter what MLS does.

I have no idea. Why some people like some sports, and don't others, is complex. Nascar is big in NA now. I wonder how many of those viewers watch other sports? I used to watch many different sports when I was a child. Now I watch soccer and the Leafs as long as the game is entertaining (if the Leafs are getting blown out, I turn the channel). There are lots of non-American born residents in the U.S. Not to mention about twenty million Mexican illegal immigrants.

Who cares? If they watch other sports and are attracted to the soccer scene, then great. If they don't watch other sports and want a piece of the soccer atmosphere, wonderful. Try to change your product to suit people with the taste for another sport, then you're asking for trouble. Try to emulate the NFL, and you'll be the poor man's lesser option. Why not call it NFL soccer? MLS needs to decide what it wants to be and create its audience. People aren't going to wait around forever for league management to tinker around in the hopes that they will stumble upon what the majority of Americans will find tolerable. MLS is not the only soccer league out there.

I agree that improvements have been made and that any process will take time. However, surpassing the NHL in terms of popularity in the U.S. isn't saying much.


Again good points. I think we're agreeing here more than disagreeing.

No, I wasn't a soccer fan before TFC. Yes, surpassing the NHL isn't saying much, but it still hasn't happened and that's significant.

MLS can "try" lots of things but they really aren't in control of anything. At this point they have to try everything.

All I'm saying is there are some mitigating factors to the success in Toronto and Seattle that aren't in other markets yet and that should be recognized.

djcuse
07-27-2009, 03:12 PM
yes. the rest of the world judges us on our ability to webcast.

Unfortunately just another piece of the disorganize puzzle...

Dirk Diggler
07-27-2009, 03:16 PM
Is the webcast being co-operative for anyone else? My internet is being slow at the moment in general so I don't even want to watch the MLS feed.

The Kingpin
07-27-2009, 03:19 PM
I can't (and won't) speak for kingpin, but I'd like to address these comments.

If MLS concentrates on building a league designed to compete for the attention of fans with other NA sports, then they are in for a world of hurt. The poaching of fans, back and forth, by fringe attractions will only lead to fads, temporary fans and, in the end, a league that will likely go bust. Why worry about what the other sports are doing? Who cares if the Sonics leave or the Blue Jays fold? MLS should be worried about implementing a working business model that leads to sustainable profitabilty for all stakeholders. MLS should be concentrating on creating "soccer" fans. The kind of fans that are interested in the game and not a special outing or "treat" that can just as easily be a trip to the movie theatre or tickets to Disney on ice. Growth will come initially from creating true soccer fans in the U.S. and Canada. This will invariably take time. Otherwise MLS can continue to try and convince the uninformed that they are oh so close to being a legitimate contender to NFL dominance in the U.S market. A great confidence game for inflating franchise value that works for the first ones in. I wouldn't want to be someone at the bottom of that pyramid. Gimmicks like Beckham and franchise fees last only for so long.

Competing with the established teams/leagues in "world" football, or trying to attract the fans from major football markets would be a big mistake imho. Understanding how "world" football works and designing MLS to fit somewhere within the system in order to profit from player development would be a smart move. MLS should focus on home grown fans by developing home grown talent. Nothing will get butts in the seats like local boys succeeding on the pitch. Legitimacy will come to MLS when they start consistently producing the talent that the big leagues want to buy. When players see how the MLS can help them get signed by teams in the EPL, La Liga, Serie A, Bundesliga, etc., then more NA youth will want to stay to develop and decent players from abroad will look to come to MLS to resuscitate their careers or to get their careers off the ground.

I agree that the competition for the hearts and minds of Americans and their entertainment dollars is awe inspriring. Sports isn't just competing with other sports anymore. If I was a sports league like the MLS, I would much rather compete with the NHL than with WWE or with video games. We live in a different world, so trying to emulate the success of leagues founded in the early to mid twentieth century may not be the best strategy. Perhaps it's time to abandon the top-down strategy of significantly altering the existing product to appeal to current tastes in order to convert existing viewers of other sports, and view the environment as a clean slate where MLS can do the hard work of selling their sport in order to attract the type of fans that will come for soccer.

I'd like to hear Parkdale's response to this beautifully crafted post. I agree on most accounts here.

flatpicker
07-27-2009, 03:20 PM
hmmm... guess I'll check back later once this webcast has been translated from gibberish to English.

BayernTFC
07-27-2009, 03:35 PM
Again good points. I think we're agreeing here more than disagreeing.
Yeah. In the end, I think we both would like to see the league become successful.


No, I wasn't a soccer fan before TFC. Yes, surpassing the NHL isn't saying much, but it still hasn't happened and that's significant.
Just out of curiousity, what convinced you to check TFC out? I understand what you are saying. I just don't think that it is helpful to follow outdated models or concepts. NHL marketing states that they are a top four sport. Who cares what they say? How many NHL teams lose money? Sports is a form of entertainment that has been turned into a business. If you don't entertain your clientele, then who cares? If you don't make money, then you are just a crappy businessman. I'd rather be a success such as WWE or Nascar with a solid following that doesn't jump ship. The type of support that Canadian NHL teams enjoy without the threat of bankruptcy and relocation.


MLS can "try" lots of things but they really aren't in control of anything. At this point they have to try everything.Bull. You know your market and produce a solid business model first. You don't stumble around blindly in the dark in a strange place hoping to find the light switch. Simple rules of business. That's why others look at MLS as if they are a joke.


All I'm saying is there are some mitigating factors to the success in Toronto and Seattle that aren't in other markets yet and that should be recognized.
Yes. Seattle and Toronto look like they are soccer markets. Seattle is the previous incarnation of a USL team and had a solid marketing strategy produced by solid management. TFC is run by MLSE. Nobody accuses MLSE of not being able to make money. Time will tell if these franchises will pass the test. One and Three years does not a trend make. Why some of the other markets? Some are self explanatory (New York, Chicago, LA). It can be a pretty costly experiment if you don't do your homework. Just ask the former owners of the Miami Fusion and the Tampa Bay Mutiny.

The Kingpin
07-27-2009, 03:40 PM
Yeah. In the end, I think we both would like to see the league become successful.


Just out of curiousity, what convinced you to check TFC out? I understand what you are saying. I just don't that it is helpful to follow outdated models or concepts. NHL marketing states that they are a top four sport. Who cares what they say? How many NHL teams lose money? Sports is a form of entertainment that has been turned into a business. If you don't entertain your clientele, then who cares? If you don't make money, then you are just a crappy businessman. I'd rather be a success such as WWE or Nascar with a solid following that doesn't jump ship. The type of support that Canadian NHL teams enjoy without the threat of bankruptcy and relocation.

Bull. You know your market and produce a solid business model first. You don't stumble around blindly in the dark in a strange place hoping to find the light switch. Simple rules of business. That's why others look at MLS as if they are a joke.


Yes. Seattle and Toronto look like they are soccer markets. Seattle is the previous incarnation of a USL team and had a solid marketing strategy produced by solid management. TFC is run by MLSE. Nobody accuses MLSE of not being able to make money. Time will tell if these franchises will pass the test. One and Three years does not a trend make. Why some of the other markets? Some are self explanatory (New York, Chicago, LA). It can be a pretty costly experiment if you don't do your homework. Just ask the former owners of the Miami Fusion and the Tampa Bay Mutiny.

All excellent points. Parkdale? Anything?

Rudi
07-27-2009, 03:54 PM
I think what people need to remember is that 'Garber' is not this all-powerful being who works in a bubble. He represents the owners, and by and large does what they want him to do.

The old school MLS ownership thought it was a good idea to try to tap into the huge youth soccer pool in the US, and the 'soccer mom' ideal that was formed because of it.

Over the past few years, MLS has brought in owners that wanted to buck that trend and also cater to the soccer fan, people who already watched the game emanating from elsewhere.

How much influence did Don Garber have over that, it's anyone's guess. But keep in mind that he has spoken out publicly that Toronto (and later, Seattle) were the model by which MLS wanted to emulate for the rest of the clubs. That means the ownership that he represents now sees the value of the established soccer fan and supporter culture.

Sure, there may be some holdouts who will never get it (Colorado, for instance, even though their ownership is relatively new to the league), but all one has to do is look at Columbus and see the transformation of their SG section, and the huge difference it has made in the atmosphere at that dreary stadium, to see that some of the older owners are slowly getting it.

Also remember that Don Garber wasn't the one in charge of MLS when they initially targetted youth soccer and soccer moms as the primary audience for this league. That was Doug Logan, who has since (comically) given advice to MLS saying that they should forget the soccer moms and target hardcore fans.

Beach_Red
07-27-2009, 04:04 PM
Yeah. In the end, I think we both would like to see the league become successful.


Just out of curiousity, what convinced you to check TFC out? I understand what you are saying. I just don't think that it is helpful to follow outdated models or concepts. NHL marketing states that they are a top four sport. Who cares what they say? How many NHL teams lose money? Sports is a form of entertainment that has been turned into a business. If you don't entertain your clientele, then who cares? If you don't make money, then you are just a crappy businessman. I'd rather be a success such as WWE or Nascar with a solid following that doesn't jump ship. The type of support that Canadian NHL teams enjoy without the threat of bankruptcy and relocation.

Bull. You know your market and produce a solid business model first. You don't stumble around blindly in the dark in a strange place hoping to find the light switch. Simple rules of business. That's why others look at MLS as if they are a joke.

Yes. Seattle and Toronto look like they are soccer markets. Seattle is the previous incarnation of a USL team and had a solid marketing strategy produced by solid management. TFC is run by MLSE. Nobody accuses MLSE of not being able to make money. Time will tell if these franchises will pass the test. One and Three years does not a trend make. Why some of the other markets? Some are self explanatory (New York, Chicago, LA). It can be a pretty costly experiment if you don't do your homework. Just ask the former owners of the Miami Fusion and the Tampa Bay Mutiny.

I like sports but I'd lost interest in hockey and baseball, the two I followed growing up in Montreal. My Expos died and went to Washington and baseball has many other problems. Hockey doesn't have enough quality players to spread out over 30 teams so the game has become hard to watch for someone like me who grew up watching the Canadiens in the 70's.

So, I heard about all the excitement at BMO and I thought I'd check it out. I knew it wouldn't be top quality, but that doesn't matter to me.

As for knowing your market and producing a solid business model I don't think anyone would have done that. There was no market for professional soccer in America and no one had any idea what a solid business plan would look like. If it hadn't been for some billionaire, there wouldn't be an MLS would there? Probably because enough market research was done to keep every other investor away. Sometimes it takes a leap of faith over a solid plan.

Even MLSE didn't really invest anything in soccer. They were given a stadium and a franchise for pretty much nothing. There is zero chance MLSE would have paid a $40 million fee to get into MLS.

Seattle does seem to be drawing on a history of soccer support. It is interesting that their basketball support wasn't as strong as much of the rest of the US, so the question is, are there many more markets like Seattle or is it the exception? As you say, it's a very expensive risk. How much has MLS lost up this point?

My hope is that someday MLS will operate as every other soccer league in the world and US fans become far more interested in onternational play than they are now. Your earlier point about the necessity of home-grown talent is huge. If the US ever does anything internationally that will do more MLS than any amount of marketing could.

And, of course, there's also the question of where will other soccer leagues be in ten years? Some of those big teams are carrying an awful lot of debt - can that go on forever? MLS may not be the only league doing some changing....

prizby
07-27-2009, 04:06 PM
so wtf did he end up saying???

jwfm1985
07-27-2009, 04:22 PM
Houston to host All-star next year, nothing on Montreal

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/soundersfcblog/2009547170_houston_will_get_2010_mls_all-.html

Dirk Diggler
07-27-2009, 04:27 PM
LOL ... a venue to host next year's game ... what a massive announcement.

gtaguy
07-27-2009, 04:28 PM
Houston to host All-star next year, nothing on Montreal

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/soundersfcblog/2009547170_houston_will_get_2010_mls_all-.html


so much for putting to rest these useless games..:facepalm:

flatpicker
07-27-2009, 04:34 PM
today's announcement = zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz..............

The Kingpin
07-27-2009, 04:40 PM
I think what people need to remember is that 'Garber' is not this all-powerful being who works in a bubble. He represents the owners, and by and large does what they want him to do.

The old school MLS ownership thought it was a good idea to try to tap into the huge youth soccer pool in the US, and the 'soccer mom' ideal that was formed because of it.

Over the past few years, MLS has brought in owners that wanted to buck that trend and also cater to the soccer fan, people who already watched the game emanating from elsewhere.

How much influence did Don Garber have over that, it's anyone's guess. But keep in mind that he has spoken out publicly that Toronto (and later, Seattle) were the model by which MLS wanted to emulate for the rest of the clubs. That means the ownership that he represents now sees the value of the established soccer fan and supporter culture.

Sure, there may be some holdouts who will never get it (Colorado, for instance, even though their ownership is relatively new to the league), but all one has to do is look at Columbus and see the transformation of their SG section, and the huge difference it has made in the atmosphere at that dreary stadium, to see that some of the older owners are slowly getting it.

Also remember that Don Garber wasn't the one in charge of MLS when they initially targetted youth soccer and soccer moms as the primary audience for this league. That was Doug Logan, who has since (comically) given advice to MLS saying that they should forget the soccer moms and target hardcore fans.

Though some good points - I think using Columbus as an example was a poor choice considering their recent inability to control fans vs. changing the atmosphere. They could have had an excellent gate and atmosphere last weekend, but the 'throwback' mentality destroyed that. There is tons of learning required...

Mark in Ottawa
07-27-2009, 04:56 PM
There is also a cultural difference between sport in North America and other parts of the world.

The North American model of buying a franchise and losing money running it while the "on paper" value of owning that franchise goes up is just a bit strange.

This is one of the reasons that the concept of promotion/relegation will not work here. The concept of "sure I've got a crappy team but you can always come and see stars from other more successful teams" which North American fans live with as a matter of course would never fly elsewhere.

Many of those european conglomerates make sure that they devise a business plan that keeps their cash flow steady so that they can re-invest in the team and not run the risk of relegation. Not so with many North American sports franchises.

Rudi
07-27-2009, 05:09 PM
Though some good points - I think using Columbus as an example was a poor choice considering their recent inability to control fans vs. changing the atmosphere. They could have had an excellent gate and atmosphere last weekend, but the 'throwback' mentality destroyed that. There is tons of learning required...
I meant more of creating a good environment towards their own hardcore fans.

Of course, Columbus has a lot to learn about accommodating traveling supporters, but to their credit they are learning in that regard (although painfully slowly).

It's a slow learning process for some front offices around the league who have been doing things a certain way for 13-14 years. Teams like TFC and Seattle are forcing them to learn faster than they would have otherwise, for fear of being left behind.

I've been following this league since day one, and I can tell you the outlook now compared to, say, the early 2000's is night and day. MLS is on the right path, but it is still only 14 years old and as such will make mistakes as they figure out what works in each market.

Shakes McQueen
07-27-2009, 05:38 PM
I meant more of creating a good environment towards their own hardcore fans.

Of course, Columbus has a lot to learn about accommodating traveling supporters, but to their credit they are learning in that regard (although painfully slowly).

It's a slow learning process for some front offices around the league who have been doing things a certain way for 13-14 years. Teams like TFC and Seattle are forcing them to learn faster than they would have otherwise, for fear of being left behind.

I've been following this league since day one, and I can tell you the outlook now compared to, say, the early 2000's is night and day. MLS is on the right path, but it is still only 14 years old and as such will make mistakes as they figure out what works in each market.

Exactly.

- Scott

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
07-27-2009, 05:42 PM
so...Houston gets the 2010 MLS ALLSTAR GAME!!!

TOROTNO GETS THE 2010 MLS CUP?????????

Pookie
07-27-2009, 07:31 PM
Good points by all above (even those on the crappy feed)

If I could add...

MLS really doesn't have "world football" competition for a few reasons:

- seasons... we don't play through the snow
- time zone... not many EPL games are live at 7pm eastern
- access... most euro games are on specialty networks

Of course, there are the SA leagues but they are not popular here.

As for the question as to marketing, I think that the issue of moms vs SGs is a bit of a red herring.

Both are needed. One is the future and the other is the reason for current success.

The real question is whether the MLS needs "stars" to market for growth or whether the Toronto/Seattle model of creating a sense of nation is the way to go.

Personally, I think the latter has all kinds of advantages.

The star model is likely to be the achilles heel of the NHL. They have used stars to market the game and paid them absurded salaries to do so. Of course, they had no TV contract so they paid for those salaries using loans and jacking up ticket prices.

Ticket prices are so out of reach that the only market they have is the corporate one. The game then becomes about "entertainment" and you end up with in-seat service and Sushi.

You also end up closing the doors to generation of fans who can't get in because Dad doesn't want to drop $500-$1,000 to take the family. These kids will only get to see NHL hockey on TV and are likely to be less interested in the team.

If those kids lose interest it's a double edged sword for the NHL. Not only do they lose tv market share, corporations are only interested in going as long as their customers are interested in going. They will spend their dollars elsewhere.

I think that the MLS has a good thing going and needs to follow the "community" route. That "community" includes SGs and families and by doing so, ensures the health of the league for years to come.

ofer
07-27-2009, 07:33 PM
Thank god

ofer
07-27-2009, 07:35 PM
the special announcement will involve Garber explaining why David Beckham is not in the all stars game.

lulz
THANK GOD:drum:

ofer
07-27-2009, 08:18 PM
in order to succeed soccer in north america needs more exposure which I can see it grown over the last year or so for instance gol-tv, special section in www.sportsnet.ca (http://www.sportsnet.ca) and the hour broadcast after TFC match on the fan 590 radio. Another way is invest in the youth, apparently there are more kids playing soccer than hockey in Canada , some for the obvious reasons.

Parkdale
07-28-2009, 09:12 AM
All excellent points. Parkdale? Anything?

jeeze, I go offline for the night and you missed me that much?

BayernTFC
07-28-2009, 10:29 AM
As for knowing your market and producing a solid business model I don't think anyone would have done that. There was no market for professional soccer in America and no one had any idea what a solid business plan would look like. If it hadn't been for some billionaire, there wouldn't be an MLS would there? Probably because enough market research was done to keep every other investor away. Sometimes it takes a leap of faith over a solid plan.
Well, I don't agree with you at all here. If an investor doesn't do his due diligence before taking the plunge, then they are a fool. To say that "There was no market for professional soccer in America" is a false statement. The United States Soccer Federation was established in 1913. The NASL had previously been in existence in NA and the USL has been around for quite some time too. In Canada, the CSL has been around since 1926. Why would anyone start a new business without a plan? If I am going to risk money on a new business venture, I would want to know what my chances at success are and do everything I can to make sure I earn a ROI instead of taking heavy losses. Sports franchises continue to cost money as long as they operate. Owners don't just lose their initial investment if the business goes belly up. Opening up an Indian restaurant in the middle of a homogenously non-Indian neighbourhood with a reputation for resistance to foreign things just because the community doesn't have an Indian restaurant, isn't the smartest of business moves. That doesn't mean that an Indian restaurant can't be successful somewhere, but you should do the work to locate the areas where Indian food is in demand, and find the right spot where those people will easily be able to access the establishment. But if initial owners were told that there would be revenue sharing and new increasingly larger franchise fees, then the league can survive on the backs of the few franchises that do well long enough for the few to pump and dump their team(s) onto some other unsuspecting sucker looking for a quick buck and too lazy to do some research and plan things out. You don't need to worry about planning or knowing your market in that scenario. Where have I seen this before???


Even MLSE didn't really invest anything in soccer. They were given a stadium and a franchise for pretty much nothing. There is zero chance MLSE would have paid a $40 million fee to get into MLS.Are you suggesting that MLSE didn't do their homework on TFC? That doesn't sound like MLSE to me. MLSE paid $15 million dollars for their franchise and their portion of BMO was $8 million dollars. Those aren't the only initial costs or expenses for running a pro sports (in this case MLS) franchise:

MLSE will commit $8 million to the construction of the facility.

but Garber said the expansion fee for the league's 14th team will be $15 million until Dec. 31, 2005, at which point it will increase "significantly" to an as-yet undetermined amount.
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/mls_toronto/index.html


Anyone who pays $40 million for a MLS franchise in a league that loses as much money as MLS does, with revenue sharing to boot, better have one hell of a business plan. One might be better off letting MLS actually prove that they can do more than just help earlier team owners recoup losses.



And, of course, there's also the question of where will other soccer leagues be in ten years? Some of those big teams are carrying an awful lot of debt - can that go on forever? MLS may not be the only league doing some changing....
Nope, but the big leagues will still be around. Their supporters aren't going anywhere. When the foreign owners of teams in the EPL have moved onto other hobbies or become tired of losing money, then they will move on and sell their team(s) for a loss to some local interest. The salaries will come down, but the best players will still want to play in Europe. The big spending will continue as long as there is another sucker to pawn off the business at an inflated value to. I'm going to sell futures on the Watermelons we are about to toss off that 30 story building over there. As long as I can get my money out before the watermelons hit the pavement, it's all good. Anyone want to buy some watermelon futures???

Beach_Red
07-28-2009, 10:48 AM
Well, I don't agree with you at all here. If an investor doesn't do his due diligence before taking the plunge, then they are a fool. To say that "There was no market for professional soccer in America" is a false statement. The United States Soccer Federation was established in 1913. The NASL had previously been in existence in NA and the USL has been around for quite some time too. In Canada, the CSL has been around since 1926. Why would anyone start a new business without a plan? If I am going to risk money on a new business venture, I would want to know what my chances at success are and do everything I can to make sure I earn a ROI instead of taking heavy losses. Sports franchises continue to cost money as long as they operate. Owners don't just lose their initial investment if the business goes belly up. Opening up an Indian restaurant in the middle of a homogenously non-Indian neighbourhood with a reputation for resistance to foreign things just because the community doesn't have an Indian restaurant, isn't the smartest of business moves. That doesn't mean that an Indian restaurant can't be successful somewhere, but you should do the work to locate the areas where Indian food is in demand, and find the right spot where those people will easily be able to access the establishment. But if initial owners were told that there would be revenue sharing and new increasingly larger franchise fees, then the league can survive on the backs of the few franchises that do well long enough for the few to pump and dump their team(s) onto some other unsuspecting sucker looking for a quick buck and too lazy to do some research and plan things out. You don't need to worry about planning or knowing your market in that scenario. Where have I seen this before???

Are you suggesting that MLSE didn't do their homework on TFC? That doesn't sound like MLSE to me. MLSE paid $15 million dollars for their franchise and their portion of BMO was $8 million dollars. Those aren't the only initial costs or expenses for running a pro sports (in this case MLS) franchise:


http://www.cbc.ca/sports/indepth/mls_toronto/index.html


Anyone who pays $40 million for a MLS franchise in a league that loses as much money as MLS does, with revenue sharing to boot, better have one hell of a business plan. One might be better off letting MLS actually prove that they can do more than just help earlier team owners recoup losses.



Nope, but the big leagues will still be around. Their supporters aren't going anywhere. When the foreign owners of teams in the EPL have moved onto other hobbies or become tired of losing money, then they will move on and sell their team(s) for a loss to some local interest. The salaries will come down, but the best players will still want to play in Europe. The big spending will continue as long as there is another sucker to pawn off the business at an inflated value to. I'm going to sell futures on the Watermelons we are about to toss off that 30 story building over there. As long as I can get my money out before the watermelons hit the pavement, it's all good. Anyone want to buy some watermelon futures???


Sometimes foolish people have money to invest. Sometimes smart people make foolish, emotional choices with their money. And we're not talking about ALL their money. The guys who have lost money with MLS are still rich.

The fact that US soccer has been around since 1913 is sort of proof that there was no real market. How many viable market go unserved for that long? MLS is a case of really rich guys trying to create a market out of very little (not out of nothing, agreed, but very little).

And yes, I'm saying MLSE took a big risk with a small amount of money. Lots of sports leages and teams have failed in North America in the last 30 years and MLS could have been one more. MLSE wasn't in on the beginning of the league, they didn't try for a team on their own. Likely it was a business decision that the market wasn't very good. Hey, they make all kinds of mistakes, that's just one more.

When the salaries come down in Europe (I hope you're right about that, and I think you are) and they go up in the US things will be a lot better. If America ever turns out soccer players the way they do track and field athletes or swimmers or basketball players or tennis players or golfers or skiers, or... you get the idea, then anything's possible. Players might even want to play in America.

BayernTFC
07-28-2009, 11:16 AM
Sometimes foolish people have money to invest. Sometimes smart people make foolish, emotional choices with their money. And we're not talking about ALL their money. The guys who have lost money with MLS are still rich.
That would be fine if it was only the owners who had something invested. Communities are affected. In some cases, tax payers money is involved. Jobs are lost when businesses go belly up. These issues are alleviated if new ownership can be found or with strategies such as relegation/promotion. How many NA franchises go belly up or relocate? What's wrong with a steadily profitable business that pays a dividend to all shareholders instead of a boom and bust mentality where the first people in the lifeboats get to leave the titanic with their wealth in tact.


The fact that US soccer has been around since 1913 is sort of proof that there was no real market. How many viable market go unserved for that long? MLS is a case of really rich guys trying to create a market out of very little (not out of nothing, agreed, but very little).Yes, the market is small. That doesn't mean that it is non-existent. Unserved would appear to mean not provided for. Get the proper people leading the charge to build the system that will provide the service. Believe it or not, there is a following for soccer in the U.S. and Canada. It's quite strong in some areas. Time and effort will be required to build on the foundation that is already there. If you envision that someday this support will reach that of American football in the U.S., then you'd be making a big mistake imho. Get it right, and you should have a stable and profitable business. Get it wrong, and lots of money will be wasted on NASL II.


And yes, I'm saying MLSE took a big risk with a small amount of money. Lots of sports leages and teams have failed in North America in the last 30 years and MLS could have been one more. MLSE wasn't in on the beginning of the league, they didn't try for a team on their own. Likely it was a business decision that the market wasn't very good. Hey, they make all kinds of mistakes, that's just one more.
Taking a calculated risk is far different from entering into a business arrangement with your eyes shut.

boban
07-28-2009, 11:32 AM
And yes, I'm saying MLSE took a big risk with a small amount of money. Lots of sports leages and teams have failed in North America in the last 30 years and MLS could have been one more. MLSE wasn't in on the beginning of the league, they didn't try for a team on their own. Likely it was a business decision that the market wasn't very good. Hey, they make all kinds of mistakes, that's just one more.
They took a risk, but it wasn't big.
I don't know how old you are or how well you know the Toronto soccer landscape, but taking a big risk in this city is just not that.

Beach_Red
07-28-2009, 03:39 PM
Get it right, and you should have a stable and profitable business. Get it wrong, and lots of money will be wasted on NASL II.




Yes, that's exactly what we're talking about. From what I've seen so far, MLS is doing more right than wrong. It has a way to go, for sure, but I think the future looks very good. The American market is different from the European, so the league can't simply model itself on one of those and you're right, it also can't simply be NFL Jr.

The Kingpin
07-28-2009, 03:49 PM
jeeze, I go offline for the night and you missed me that much?

Still nothing. :o

Beach_Red
07-28-2009, 04:05 PM
They took a risk, but it wasn't big.
I don't know how old you are or how well you know the Toronto soccer landscape, but taking a big risk in this city is just not that.


That was my point. Once someone else got the stadium going and the franchise fee was still so low, they got involved. But there would certainly have been no inteest from MLSE if they'd had to build their own stadium or put up $40 million for the franchise.

MLS had been around for quite a few years and MLSE had shown no interest, right?