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Belfast_Boy
07-24-2009, 12:23 AM
Should Mr. Vitti have to go?

Cashcleaner
07-24-2009, 12:30 AM
Yes.

Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE on the boards all figured he was the second coming, but I never really saw the big deal. The guy just hadn't played enough minutes prior to TFC to really make any bold prediction about his abilities.

I think maybe he could find a spot on the team, but he's getting paid a lot of money and producing few results.

colman1860
07-24-2009, 12:30 AM
No, he should not. A prime example of North American sports fans relying too much on statistics to evaluate a player. This works in baseball, not footy. Vitti is a very dangerous offensive weapon for TFC. Also...do a quick search before you open a new thread.

Cashcleaner
07-24-2009, 12:35 AM
^ He's very threatening towards the opposition. I will give that. I think he does tend to worry the GK and D.

Blizzard
07-24-2009, 12:41 AM
No, he should not. A prime example of North American sports fans relying too much on statistics to evaluate a player. This works in baseball, not footy. Vitti is a very dangerous offensive weapon for TFC. Also...do a quick search before you open a new thread.

Agreed. He's the most skilled player on TFC. He was superb against River Plate. Too bad about the missed penalty but I thought he was awesome last night.

His set up of Robbo for that header / shouldabeen a goal in the first half was first class.

grizzle
07-24-2009, 12:42 AM
How many threads does this need to be discussed in? Do you have nothing better to do than constantly criticize the players, especially Vitti? Its funny how people constantly pick on him but never mention Robbo (paid more, way worse performance).

No, he should not go.

karlosarmenta
07-24-2009, 12:44 AM
"No, he should not. A prime example of North American sports fans relying too much on statistics to evaluate a player. This works in baseball, not footy. Vitti is a very dangerous offensive weapon for TFC."
My point exactly at Ben Knights onward soccer blog. Ben uses stats to prove that Vitti should go, where I believe his misplacement on the field is why he has not produced, but setting him in the right position would prove to be worth every penny spent on Pablo Vitti.


http://onwardsoccer.com/2009/07/23/notes-on-the-new-guys/

Belfast_Boy
07-24-2009, 12:44 AM
this is from the MLS news from June

TORONTO -- After 13 games played and no goals scored, Pablo Vitti was a target for criticism in some corners for his lack of finishing. Given that the loan deal that brought the striker to Toronto FC from Independiente is non-guaranteed, there were even some whispers that Vitti's days wearing the TFC red might be numbered.

He's now put two in the back of the net. has he done enough since this story to change this opinion?

AL-MO
07-24-2009, 12:44 AM
How many threads does this need to be discussed in? Do you have nothing better to do than constantly criticize the players, especially Vitti? Its funny how people constantly pick on him but never mention Robbo (paid more, way worse performance).

No, he should not go.

Apples/Oranges.

grizzle
07-24-2009, 12:48 AM
Apples/Oranges.

Sorry, misunderstood the first time. People are complaining about his salary so it is not apples to oranges. I am comparing 2 300k players.

Belfast_Boy
07-24-2009, 12:50 AM
How many threads does this need to be discussed in? Do you have nothing better to do than constantly criticize the players, especially Vitti? Its funny how people constantly pick on him but never mention Robbo (paid more, way worse performance).

No, he should not go.

seemed like it was mentioned in several different threads so thought it warranted it's own.

I'm not criticizing the man. it just seemed that he's paid a lot of money, our money, and not living up to expectations. these threads are here for us to talk about this crap.

Shakes McQueen
07-24-2009, 12:56 AM
No, he should not. A prime example of North American sports fans relying too much on statistics to evaluate a player. This works in baseball, not footy. Vitti is a very dangerous offensive weapon for TFC. Also...do a quick search before you open a new thread.

A "dangerous offensive weapon"? Perhaps theoretically, based on his skills with the ball at his feet, but that's a pretty bold title for a guy with two goals (both off reactionary headers), and no assists, as Ben Knight mentioned in another thread.

I'm all for keeping him, as I think he does some things well. Same with Chad Barrett. But not at $300K a year. Vitti has some good tricks with the ball, but he has a tendency for his runs to result in nothing but lost possession, and he seems to have a phobia of taking shots - the thing he was brought in to do in the first place. I am encouraged by some good linking up he has been doing with DeRo, Guevara, and Barrett in recent weeks though, so he might be worth giving some more time to see what happens.

And I'm curious about your rather condescending assumption that his question is based off of a North American desire to "rely on statistics", when all he did was ask a question.

- Scott

v00d00daddy
07-24-2009, 12:56 AM
Apples/Oranges.


Yes in terms of style of play.

Apples/Apples in terms of salary.

300k+ club with TFC

-DeRo
-Guevara (i think)
-Vitti
-Robbo

Am I to understand that Vitti does not belong on that list but Robbo does?

Don't make no sense to me. lol

grizzle
07-24-2009, 12:59 AM
seemed like it was mentioned in several different threads so thought it warranted it's own.

I'm not criticizing the man. it just seemed that he's paid a lot of money, our money, and not living up to expectations. these threads are here for us to talk about this crap.

Who cares how much money he is paid. Is it holding the team back from signing someone better? I doubt it, or they probably would have done it.

Look at some of the other higher paid players:
Barrett - $195k base salary
Brennan - $185k base salary
Dero - $357k base salary
Guevara - $300k base salary
Robbo - $300k base salary
Vitti - $288k base salary

Now, put those players in order of skill. Vitti comes up in the top 3 for me even after factoring his statistics, therefore I think he is paid accordingly. How would you order them?

v00d00daddy
07-24-2009, 01:04 AM
A "dangerous offensive weapon"? Perhaps theoretically, based on his skills with the ball at his feet, but that's a pretty bold title for a guy with two goals (both off reactionary headers), and no assists, as Ben Knight mentioned in another thread.

I'm all for keeping him, as I think he does some things well. Same with Chad Barrett. But not at $300K a year. Vitti has some good tricks with the ball, but he has a tendency for his runs to result in nothing but lost possession, and he seems to have a phobia of taking shots - the thing he was brought in to do in the first place. I am encouraged by some good linking up he has been doing with DeRo, Guevara, and Barrett in recent weeks though, so he might be worth giving some more time to see what happens.

And I'm curious about your rather condescending assumption that his question is based off of a North American desire to "rely on statistics", when all he did was ask a question.

- Scott

Goals (and especially assists) have never been a proper measure of a soccer player unless it is an out and out striker. I think that's what he was getting at.

I think it's become quite clear that Vitti is not the striker we thought he would be...in fact...he's not a striker at all but rather a CM.

That being said....since he's gotten consistent regular time his play has improved. Not that it matters, but I think by seasons end, his stats will be respectable.

He's a good soccer player. One of TFC's most talented.

Also, and this isn't directed at you Shakes...but what's with the double standard.

I started a thread like this a long time ago about Robbo and the idea that he is good but not good enough to warrant 300k+ and I got shit on for even suggesting it.

Funny enough....a lot of people were telling me that you can't measure what Robbo brings to the game on a stat sheet. Now, apprently, stats are important when evaluating a player?

Ah well...Vitti is good. I'm glad he's with TFC.

Shakes McQueen
07-24-2009, 01:18 AM
Goals (and especially assists) have never been a proper measure of a soccer player unless it is an out and out striker. I think that's what he was getting at.

I think it's become quite clear that Vitti is not the striker we thought he would be...in fact...he's not a striker at all but rather a CM.

That being said....since he's gotten consistent regular time his play has improved. Not that it matters, but I think by seasons end, his stats will be respectable.

He's a good soccer player. One of TFC's most talented.

Also, and this isn't directed at you Shakes...but what's with the double standard.

I started a thread like this a long time ago about Robbo and the idea that he is good but not good enough to warrant 300k+ and I got shit on for even suggesting it.

Funny enough....a lot of people were telling me that you can't measure what Robbo brings to the game on a stat sheet. Now, apprently, stats are important when evaluating a player?

Ah well...Vitti is good. I'm glad he's with TFC.

I don't think I ever commented in that thread - or at least, not on that topic in particular.

I think a decent argument could be made that Robbo doesn't warrant a $300K a year hit to our cap. I'm not sure if I would agree with it, just because of Robbo's solid defensive capabilities (in my opinion), nd also because of his intangible leadership qualities. But I could see some people saying it, because of his horrendous distribution (and hence, his inability to be a solid link in the midfield).

But yes, you can't mark Robbo's contribution on a stats sheet, because he's a defensive midfielder. Vitti was originally brought in as a striker, then seemed to move to a winger/attacking midfielder role. And yes, I absolutely think part of your assessment of performance in those positions, has to include goal and assist production, since your two major responsibilities are to either make an attempt on goal, or cut through the defense with a good pass for someone else to take a shot.

But yes, I think he has improved. And I'm personally perfectly willing to give him longer to find his stride, because of that improvement.

- Scott

Ossington Mental Youth
07-24-2009, 01:29 AM
drop his wages and keep him. Hes obviously talented and beneficial for the team. Im hoping he likes it here enough to take a pay cut. If money wasnt such a big deal id pay him the 300k but sadly it is.

Shakes McQueen
07-24-2009, 01:33 AM
drop his wages and keep him. Hes obviously talented and beneficial for the team. Im hoping he likes it here enough to take a pay cut. If money wasnt such a big deal id pay him the 300k but sadly it is.

Same here. I'm also hoping he decides he likes Toronto, and is willing to stay for less money.

Or even better, that he finishes out the season incredibly strong, and makes that $300K look like a bargain, compared to the first half of this season.

- Scott

Ossington Mental Youth
07-24-2009, 01:47 AM
Same here. I'm also hoping he decides he likes Toronto, and is willing to stay for less money.

Or even better, that he finishes out the season incredibly strong, and makes that $300K look like a bargain, compared to the first half of this season.

- Scott

id be ok with the latter too provided hes consistent HA

torontocelt
07-24-2009, 06:22 AM
Who cares how much money he is paid. Is it holding the team back from signing someone better? I doubt it, or they probably would have done it.

Look at some of the other higher paid players:
Barrett - $195k base salary
Brennan - $185k base salary
Dero - $357k base salary
Guevara - $300k base salary
Robbo - $300k base salary
Vitti - $288k base salary

Now, put those players in order of skill. Vitti comes up in the top 3 for me even after factoring his statistics, therefore I think he is paid accordingly. How would you order them?

What exactly do you guys all categorize as skill when you mention Vitti? I can only think you are making reference to his dribbling abilities? Vitti is a good dribbler but on a consistent basis he will take on one too many guys and lose possession, he has shown this season that he has very little end product. Now you can be a good dribbler but if it goes no where and ends up with the other team having possession then it really doesnt matter if you are a good dribbller because you have lost the ball anyway. which is a negative effect on your own team. Vitti is very much a mixed bag, there is potential there but its whether or not it will ever be fully realised is the question?

TorontoBlades
07-24-2009, 06:57 AM
^ an ability that not many have on the pitch to maintian possession of the ball in close quarters and redistribute in the final 3rd

datz skill

Oblio2
07-24-2009, 06:58 AM
Never been a fan. They guy doesn't produce, especially for the money he's being paid.
get rid.
End of.

torontocelt
07-24-2009, 07:18 AM
^ an ability that not many have on the pitch to maintian possession of the ball in close quarters and redistribute in the final 3rd

datz skill

redistribute to the opposition?

Shaughno
07-24-2009, 07:32 AM
redistribute to the opposition?


I'd say he's far more accurate at picking out his own players than Robbo, Cronin, Wynne and probably a few others.

He's not a striker. I said that in the beginning. He should be playing behind the striker, a #10 role if you will. Technically, he's the most gifted player on the team. He plays with heart, he makes more successful slide tackles than Robbo and Cronin combined (even while playing striker), and he loses the ball a lot less in close quarters than many of our other players.

So maybe he's not worth $300k to some people, but I'd sooner keep Vitti than try to replace him.

pepher
07-24-2009, 08:19 AM
IMO, he's clearly a competent player but had done NOTHING to justify his pay. he doesn't raise the game play of other players, doesn't carry a constant threat of goal scoring when on the field and we would not miss him if he was gone. I wish him all the best elsewhere... he just doesn't work here...

Shaughno
07-24-2009, 08:25 AM
I'd love to hear what DeRo, Guevara, Robbo and Dichio have to say about Vitti. Saying he doesn't increase the level of play on the pitch is bollocks. His link up play with DeRo and Guevara over the past few weeks has been great.

People need to stop expecting goals out of Vitti and let him direct traffic on the pitch, like he should be doing.

Also, I ask the Vitti doubters/haters, have you ever paid any attention to Vitti when he doesn't have the ball? He makes the defenders work. Constantly cutting across the defense, opening up holes and getting into fantastic positions. His work coming back to help out has been great as well, definitely our most successful tackler outside of the defense.

bdiddy
07-24-2009, 09:03 AM
Vitti is arguably the best creative midfielders we have on our team.

Guevara is a great attacking midfielders, but his ability to run with the ball and create isn't nearly as strong as Vitti.

Vitti's ability to draw in defenders has opened up more space for players like Barrett, De Ro and Guevara to operate. His ability to back track and make good strong challenges is also a big benefit.

Early on in the season I saw him making these amazing runs, but his teammates weren't ready or didn't know how to pass to him in those situations or was too late.

In the game vs. River Plate, he had an amazing pass to Carl, but Mr. Robinson failed to convert.

trane
07-24-2009, 09:09 AM
I have always supporter Vitti, for his skill and footy IQ, I think he is one of our best players. I would prefer him used as a pure AM or CM, but I would not want to see him let go. De Ro, Guevarra, Dichio, Robbo, Vitti and now Gerba are guys with real understanding of the game. With guys like Cronin and Attakora are developing, we finaly can put 11 true footballers on the pitch. Vitti in my view should be part of it.

Shaughno
07-24-2009, 09:12 AM
Agreed on both posts, Trane and bdiddy.

Belfast_Boy
07-24-2009, 09:13 AM
I'd love to hear what DeRo, Guevara, Robbo and Dichio have to say about Vitti. Saying he doesn't increase the level of play on the pitch is bollocks. His link up play with DeRo and Guevara over the past few weeks has been great.

People need to stop expecting goals out of Vitti and let him direct traffic on the pitch, like he should be doing.

Also, I ask the Vitti doubters/haters, have you ever paid any attention to Vitti when he doesn't have the ball? He makes the defenders work. Constantly cutting across the defense, opening up holes and getting into fantastic positions. His work coming back to help out has been great as well, definitely our most successful tackler outside of the defense.

good points! I haven't really watched him much off the ball. but will be doing that to get a more informed opinion.

I wouldn't call myself a hater. just wanted to see what the opinion was on the board. seemed a lot of people here and in the media are questioning his contribution.

Shaughno
07-24-2009, 09:16 AM
good points! I haven't really watched him much off the ball. but will be doing that to get a more informed opinion.

I wouldn't call myself a hater. just wanted to see what the opinion was on the board. seemed a lot of people here and in the media are questioning his contribution.


People are questioning his contribution because they are simply looking for goals. He's not a goal scoring machine. Neither is Guevara, the only reason he gets most of his goals and assists is that he's our primary dead ball specialist. Take those out of his game and you've got a slightly less talented player than Vitti, IMO of course.

People have to remember as well, Guevara = Former MLS MVP and league veteran. Vitti = talented little mofo with more skill than any single player on our team. Is he worth $300k? Maybe not, but I surely don't want to get rid of him even if his salary doesn't change.

DichioTFC
07-24-2009, 09:21 AM
Vitti is definitely worth keeping. Sure he's not perfect, and he could improve on his finishing (and penalty kicks i guess...lol), but he's one of our better players and someone that has definitely been a positive addition to the team.

For what he brings to the table, and considering his slightly overvalued salary, he's worth keeping IMO

TFC07
07-24-2009, 09:32 AM
Quick question: Is Vitti really getting paid $300 K or is some of that money going back to his club in Argentina as part loan deal?

Yes, I agree that Robbo needs to take a paycut. He isn't worth $300 K.

mmmikey
07-24-2009, 09:34 AM
I have been supporting vitti based on his overall contribution for a while. I won't repeat myself but just add this: the guy has been bounced around between Argentina to eastern Europe and back again and now Toronto. That's a long haul and can really unsettle a player. This isn't like dichio or robbo moving to a different English speaking country. Even big money players moving to Europe sometimes take a half season or more to settle. He is looking like he is settling in nicely... And the on field results look to be improving. I want to see the 2nd half of the season before I jdge his season.

rocker
07-24-2009, 09:41 AM
I'm torn on Vitti.. but one point: don't worry about how much Vitti is making. Nobody on this board has definitive knowledge of how much cap money we have left or allocation money.

every year there's some "salary scapegoat" on these boards. Last year it was Robinson. Mo Johnston's job is to worry about the salary cap consequences of paying Vitti 300K.

I guess people worry that this 300K is somehow taking money away from a better player? but that's a hypothetical. Mo might have the room to bring in a better player AND keep Vitti. Maybe it's hard to find a player that's guaranteed to make a greater contribution for less than 300K.

Or maybe people are just thinking about some imaginary "fairness level" -- that a player should be paid what he deserves? Well in sports that rarely happens.

TorontoBlades
07-24-2009, 10:03 AM
As long as we're under the cap with our roster then I don't see why people keep on banging on people salaries. Sure Vitti makes decent coin, relatively - but it's not that much on the global market. I'd like to see who any of you would bring in for 300k a year that would be able to provide what Vitti can (and he still is one of our younger players.

He does a better job doing what Ricketts was supposed to do than Ricketts for sure, and is making not that much more.

bdiddy
07-24-2009, 10:09 AM
Good point about Ricketts Torontoblades,

mmmikey
07-24-2009, 10:24 AM
here is another way to look at his rough start (lifted from my comment on ben's blog): look at the NBA. how many of those great european players come in and go crazy in their first season, it's usually a matter of adjusting to the NBA style game and the country first. TFC fans have unfairly raised their expectations of foreign players because you can find players from england who will come over and get settled pretty fast (robbo, dichio).

give him the 2nd half to prove what he can do. half a season isn't enough to judge him on.

Bars92
07-24-2009, 10:33 AM
I know this. The team is a lot better than it was in the first two seasons, when there was no Vitti. Can this be a conincidence??

bhoybobby
07-24-2009, 11:40 AM
No. he's a our strongest pure footballer. I would argue, he's better value thna Robbo & Gueverra. The latter wastes so many corner & free kicks, while the former can't make a telling forward pass.

DichioTFC
07-24-2009, 11:45 AM
No. he's a our strongest pure footballer. I would argue, he's better value thna Robbo & Gueverra. The latter wastes so many corner & free kicks, while the former can't make a telling forward pass.

Agree that he's the strongest pur footballer. Disagree with the Robbo & guevara comments simply because Vitti is inconsistent. There have been some games when we've forgotten he was on the pitch because his play was so lousy. Hopefully those days are behind him.

bhoybobby
07-24-2009, 11:50 AM
Agree that he's the strongest pur footballer. Disagree with the Robbo & guevara comments simply because Vitti is inconsistent. There have been some games when we've forgotten he was on the pitch because his play was so lousy. Hopefully those days are behind him.

It's hard to forget when Robbo & Gueverra are on the pitch, they have combined to miss so many passes, free kick & corners it's sometimes painful.

Amado, when interested, does the odd amazing thing, but more often than not is inconsistent. Robbo, can longer hit a good forward pass.

Vitti is a class footballer & good value for the money:scarf:

TorontoBlades
07-24-2009, 11:55 AM
If there were nets on the sidelines at midfield - Robbo would be the MLS' leading scorer.

Shaughno
07-24-2009, 11:56 AM
It's hard to forget when Robbo & Gueverra are on the pitch, they have combined to miss so many passes, free kick & corners it's sometimes painful.

Amado, when interested, does the odd amazing thing, but more often than not is inconsistent. Robbo, can longer hit a good forward pass.

Vitti is a class footballer & good value for the money:scarf:


If there were nets on the sidelines at midfield - Robbo would be the MLS' leading scorer.


Quoted for truth.

Pookie
07-24-2009, 12:11 PM
The question is bigger than "should Vitti go."

If you don't have to, why would you? We have no cap issues (DP pending).

If we do bring in a DP and need to clear space, Vitti may be a consideration. But so too would Robinson and Barrett.

Set Barrett's troubles on the field aside, he is a Forward. We have quite a few of those, including Gerba and up and comers like White and Ibrahim. He is probably the least versatile of the bunch.

Robinson is seen as a character guy but that character wasn't much help when the team slid to a record of 3-9-6 over their last 18 games and out of a playoff spot. He can play both an offensive and defensive role. But if the rumoured DP is in fact a mid-fielder, I would think that Robinson's spot is where he would go.

Vitti can work very well on the outside and offers you a potential offensive punch. Vitti offers you the potential to rotate a Dichio into the game as well as a Brennan (as a mid) or other sub.

Don't forget that we have a bit of a log jam in the back half now that Garcia is there and Wynne is back from duty. Brennan is to the back end what Vitti is to the front. He can play reasonably effectively, including in the midfield.

Barrett would be my first choice to go. Robinson is next. Vitti would be a 3 on the go list with Brennan close behind, or vice versa

torfchamilton
07-24-2009, 12:13 PM
I think Vitti is a keeper. He is adjusting to MLS and a new country. Even at his salary I would keep him. He is 23 years old, I think. So we would compare him to Barrett, wynne and Co.

The other thing with Vitti and I have said this in other threads with no answers. Dero will never pass to Vitti. Not sure why, but there have been many chances that a pass from Dero to Vitti would have been the right thing. Dero looks at him and then turns the other direction.

Vitti is really good when Dero is out of the lineup. All his great runs the other night happened with Dero on the bench. Vitti's best game happened when Dero was injured and did not play at the beginning of the season against KC, I think. Not sure if there is something between Dero and Vitti.

I have watched all the games and have really focused on Dero passing to Vitti. It does not happen.

mmmikey
07-24-2009, 12:51 PM
I think Vitti is a keeper. He is adjusting to MLS and a new country. Even at his salary I would keep him. He is 23 years old, I think. So we would compare him to Barrett, wynne and Co.

The other thing with Vitti and I have said this in other threads with no answers. Dero will never pass to Vitti. Not sure why, but there have been many chances that a pass from Dero to Vitti would have been the right thing. Dero looks at him and then turns the other direction.

Vitti is really good when Dero is out of the lineup. All his great runs the other night happened with Dero on the bench. Vitti's best game happened when Dero was injured and did not play at the beginning of the season against KC, I think. Not sure if there is something between Dero and Vitti.

I have watched all the games and have really focused on Dero passing to Vitti. It does not happen.

i've noticed this too.. i thought it was better the last few games, but wasn't really watching for it anymore. def will do so tomorrow though.

backbeat
07-24-2009, 01:00 PM
I think Vitti is a keeper. He is adjusting to MLS and a new country. Even at his salary I would keep him. He is 23 years old, I think. So we would compare him to Barrett, wynne and Co.

The other thing with Vitti and I have said this in other threads with no answers. Dero will never pass to Vitti. Not sure why, but there have been many chances that a pass from Dero to Vitti would have been the right thing. Dero looks at him and then turns the other direction.

Vitti is really good when Dero is out of the lineup. All his great runs the other night happened with Dero on the bench. Vitti's best game happened when Dero was injured and did not play at the beginning of the season against KC, I think. Not sure if there is something between Dero and Vitti.

I have watched all the games and have really focused on Dero passing to Vitti. It does not happen.

i have noticed this as well - really not sure why but i get the sense Dero's looking for Barrett or someone else.

Toronto_Bhoy
07-24-2009, 01:06 PM
It appears he has the skill but we should be getting much more from this guy and I'm still yet to see it…

Could be the set up but one thing is for sure…he's a defensive liability. I've seen Dero and Robbo tear strips off him numerous times. Fails to back track, his head drops after coughing up the ball and IMO, doesn't work hard enough.

With Gerba here and the possibility of JDG arrival around the corner Vitti becomes tough to justify…especially in a league with a cap.

In the midfield category we could have:


Dero
Amado
JDG
Robbo
Cronin
Vitti


In our current formation pick 4 of the above…

TorontoBlades
07-24-2009, 01:11 PM
My XI:


---------------Frei
---Attakora----Garcia------Serioux
-----------Robbo----Cronin
---Vitti---------Guavara-----Brennan
--------Gerba---------DeRo

olegunnar
07-24-2009, 01:13 PM
My question would be can Vitti replace Amado. I think so and I think that's the kind of position he's most suited for.

There are lots of rumours that this is Amado's last year here. Would it be wise to ditch Vitti only to see Amado leave too?

backbeat
07-24-2009, 01:15 PM
It appears he has the skill but we should be getting much more from this guy and I'm still yet to see it…

Could be the set up but one thing is for sure…he's a defensive liability. I've seen Dero and Robbo tear strips off him numerous times. Fails to back track, his head drops after coughing up the ball and IMO, doesn't work hard enough.

With Gerba here and the possibility of JDG arrival around the corner Vitti becomes tough to justify…especially in a league with a cap.

In the midfield category we could have:


Dero
Amado
JDG
Robbo
Cronin
Vitti

In our current formation pick 4 of the above…

not sure what you're watching but Vitti backtracks way more than most - his tackles are topnotch and his quality is as well.

kitchener-TFC
07-24-2009, 02:17 PM
Kitchener-TFC says Vitti should stay! End of discussion :p .

jazz_trumpet
07-24-2009, 02:30 PM
Wouldn't an adequate replacement for Vitti be found before we can replace the guy?

I personally love the guy. Give him a full season before you make your judgement on him. I say he'll have at least 8 goals by the end of the season.

mmmikey
07-24-2009, 02:33 PM
It appears he has the skill but we should be getting much more from this guy and I'm still yet to see it…

Could be the set up but one thing is for sure…he's a defensive liability. I've seen Dero and Robbo tear strips off him numerous times. Fails to back track, his head drops after coughing up the ball and IMO, doesn't work hard enough.

With Gerba here and the possibility of JDG arrival around the corner Vitti becomes tough to justify…especially in a league with a cap.

In the midfield category we could have:


Dero
Amado
JDG
Robbo
Cronin
Vitti


In our current formation pick 4 of the above…

im quite surprised by this comment as well.. he tracks back quite well.. often making tackles just forward of the CB's and FB's

ilikemusic
07-24-2009, 02:34 PM
To completely ignore the topic, how is his name pronounced?

I always hear it pronounced 'Vee-Tee' but I dont like that. I prefer to say 'Vitt-E'.

Language and parlance be damned, I want to say names my way!

Yohan
07-24-2009, 03:46 PM
SA players have a tough time adjusting to MLS. Vitti doesn't speak English. So takes a while for him to get adjusted to MLS.

he's been good last few games. we need to have more patience with this guy

Vitti won't be a Guevara replacement until he develops better awareness in the field though. Guevara can see where his teammates are going to be. Vitti haven't quite developed that knack yet

bhoybobby
07-24-2009, 04:23 PM
SA players have a tough time adjusting to MLS. Vitti doesn't speak English. So takes a while for him to get adjusted to MLS.

he's been good last few games. we need to have more patience with this guy

Vitti won't be a Guevara replacement until he develops better awareness in the field though. Guevara can see where his teammates are going to be. Vitti haven't quite developed that knack yet

Oh Gueverra see's them, like Robb, he misses them with his passes.

Vitti has way more upside than Gueverra:scarf:

bhoybobby
07-24-2009, 04:30 PM
It appears he has the skill but we should be getting much more from this guy and I'm still yet to see it…

Could be the set up but one thing is for sure…he's a defensive liability. I've seen Dero and Robbo tear strips off him numerous times. Fails to back track, his head drops after coughing up the ball and IMO, doesn't work hard enough.

With Gerba here and the possibility of JDG arrival around the corner Vitti becomes tough to justify…especially in a league with a cap.

In the midfield category we could have:


Dero
Amado
JDG
Robbo
Cronin
Vitti


In our current formation pick 4 of the above…

I hope we don't spend that coin on JDG, we'd be overpaying big time. Dero's the pick of that bunch with Vitti a close 2nd.

Robbo, can't pass go
Amado, rarely in the mood, wastes deadballs & corners

Cronin, decent, no where near Vitti in class.

JDG, good player, not at anywhere near that dosh. If he wasn't Cdn, we'd be outraged at this money we're maybe gonna throw at him.:scarf:

mclaren
07-24-2009, 04:36 PM
Vitti is one of our most skillful players - watch the other team's defence and he is the one that frightens them most. I'd like us to keep him for a reasonable price.

bhoybobby
07-24-2009, 04:44 PM
Vitti is the most complete player, why?

He can pass
Has decent speed
Tracks back
Good tackler
Strong on the ball
Decent crosser
Decent shot
Can score
Scares the shit outta other teams

Name another who has these attributes???

Maybe, MAYBE, Dero, Vitti is the most wisely spent $ on the team. Case closed

torontocelt
07-24-2009, 05:05 PM
Vitti is the most complete player, why?

He can pass
Has decent speed
Tracks back
Good tackler
Strong on the ball
Decent crosser
Decent shot
Can score
Scares the shit outta other teams

Name another who has these attributes???

Maybe, MAYBE, Dero, Vitti is the most wisely spent $ on the team. Case closed

Right enough is enough, Vitti is no where near the standard of DeRo. DeRo is one of few players we have who I think could make it in the premiership, Vitti, well not so much.

torontocelt
07-24-2009, 05:07 PM
Oh Gueverra see's them, like Robb, he misses them with his passes.

Vitti has way more upside than Gueverra:scarf:
Vitti isn't at the level of Gueverra either. Gueverra is a far more complete player with an end product although he too is an under achiever.

mmmikey
07-24-2009, 05:35 PM
Guevara's ability on set pieces makes it an unfair comparison, but if u give his exp to Vitti... As good as DeRo (maybe).

DeRo is our best player. Not our most complete, but still the best.

GeorgeB
07-24-2009, 05:53 PM
Vitti is the most complete player, why?

He can pass
Has decent speed
Tracks back
Good tackler
Strong on the ball
Decent crosser
Decent shot
Can score
Scares the shit outta other teams

Name another who has these attributes???

Maybe, MAYBE, Dero, Vitti is the most wisely spent $ on the team. Case closeddisagree. agree on most of it though.mls is not a good fit for Vitti to thrive,because he needs to play with players at his skill level.he did put on a good performance on wed and im sure independiante were watching on the telly back in argentina.i expect they will want him back once the loan expires.

Toronto_Bhoy
07-24-2009, 06:07 PM
not sure what you're watching but Vitti backtracks way more than most - his tackles are topnotch and his quality is as well.

Watch Dero and Robbo! They are constantly pointing and yelling at Vitti. Between him and Amado the two are running there asses off!

Again, it may well be the set up but Vitti has got to learn how defend if he is playing in the midfield...get back and defend!

Top notch tackles? Give your head a shake...couldn't tackle a fish supper...

Need to see more from Vitti...

backbeat
07-24-2009, 09:05 PM
you better look again then because he tackles and he tackles well - great ball stripper - Vitti is #8 - i think we're watching 2 different players and again he's top quality on this team we have very few who can play with the skill level he has.

rocker
07-24-2009, 09:42 PM
you better look again then because he tackles and he tackles well - great ball stripper

I agree with that.. although he did more of that early in the season.

bhoybobby
07-24-2009, 10:22 PM
Right enough is enough, Vitti is no where near the standard of DeRo. DeRo is one of few players we have who I think could make it in the premiership, Vitti, well not so much.

DeRo is no premiership player, or he'd be there long ago. DeRo scores more goals than Vitti. Skillwise, technical ability, passing, they're pretty close.

Gueverra is a very self indulgent player, who wastes far too many deadballs. He goes through spells where he gives the ball away through bad passing all the time.

bhoybobby
07-24-2009, 10:27 PM
Watch Dero and Robbo! They are constantly pointing and yelling at Vitti. Between him and Amado the two are running there asses off!

Again, it may well be the set up but Vitti has got to learn how defend if he is playing in the midfield...get back and defend!

Top notch tackles? Give your head a shake...couldn't tackle a fish supper...

Need to see more from Vitti...

Wow, I respect a lot of your views, but I think Vitti puts in a great shift, he tracks back & tackles well. Robbo looks a yard off the pace, he's getting past his sell by date.

Anado alternates between interest & disinterest. No doubt he has talent, but must he take every deadball. Some of the free kicks & corners have been dreadful.

Vitti, IMHO is a very strong tackler, great passer & has a great engine:scarf:

torontocelt
07-25-2009, 08:09 AM
DeRo is no premiership player, or he'd be there long ago. DeRo scores more goals than Vitti. Skillwise, technical ability, passing, they're pretty close.



I could think of no possible reason why DeRo could not play for a lower end premiership team. I am not saying DeRo would play for a decent team but he could definitely be a squad player and not look out of place for many premiership teams. Teams like Birmingham, Wolves, Fulham, Burnley, Bolton, Blackburn, Hull, Sunderland and Stoke are teams who I feel DeRo would be good enough to play for as a squad player for sure.

The premiership is not jam packed with quality clubs, you just have to take a look at some of those mentioned above to realise that. Some of these teams despite the millions they get from Sky are still mediocre teams with squads that are not fantastic.

Pookie
07-25-2009, 08:56 AM
^ so is it being suggested that De Rosario and Guevara are each more skilled than Vitti?

That's fine because they are paid just like that. De Rosario, Guevara and Vitti in that order.

As for being overpaid and underperforming, this was a really interesting article. Though written in 2008, it is definitely worth a read:

MLS salary list reveals bargains and the overpaid

[/URL]By Andrew Hush


Challenge time. Your task is to decide which of the following hypothetical teams would emerge as victors in a game against the other, based only on the following information:



Team 1 features a former MLS Defender of the Year, a three-time Eastern Conference champion and a two-time MLS Cup winner. Additionally, it contains a player named "most improved" by his club in 2007, as well as the winner of the first Goal of the Week prize of this season. Several of its number are full internationals.

Team 2, meanwhile, includes two players who have yet to play a single minute in MLS and a former No. 1 pick who has played in eight games in his first three seasons in the league. Also in there is a striker who has scored twice in 17 career games and a goalkeeper whose career goals against average is 2.67.

Here's something to further assist in your decision-making. Based on recently released information, which detailed the salaries of every player in MLS ahead of the start of the 2008 season, one team has a total wage bill of $1,584,133, while the monetary output of the other is $334,203.

So, based on the information you have, who's your pick? Which side would come out on top? Furthermore, which side has the collective résumé to be more worthy of the higher of the two salaries mentioned? Team 1 on both counts, right?

Well, on the playing front, Team 2 would arguably be the overwhelming favorite in this hypothetical match. It would thus be logical to think that the better the team, the more they earn, wouldn't it? It may, therefore, surprise you to learn that the favorites would be dining more modestly were they to be celebrating, while the losers would be able to console themselves in a more up-market manner.
Before we go any further, let's take a look at those teams in full:


Team 1 (Total 2008 salary: $1,584,133)
Chris Seitz ($105,500), Amaechi Igwe (103,000), Patrick Ianni (108,000), Quavas Kirk (136,500), Anthony Wallace (103,000), Nikolas Besagno (136,500), Nico Colaluca (103,000), Carl Robinson (330,000), Daniele Dichio (165,625), Abdus Ibrahim (103,000), Conor Casey (190,008)

Team 2 (Total 2008 salary: $334,203)
Bouna Coundoul ($33,000), James Riley (33,000), Bobby Boswell (33,000.00), Tyson Wahl (33,000), Colin Clark (33,000), Stuart Holden (33,075.00), Sainey Nyassi (17,700), Dane Richards (33,000), Adam Moffat (17,700), Scott Sealy (34,728), Abe Thompson (33,000)


Salary issues have long been debated in MLS circles and the publication of 2008's numbers will do little to slow the discussion. In truth, there is nothing new that is revealed, other than a fresh opportunity for fans to browse the list of names with a beady eye, ready with the "He gets paid how much?" and "Wow, what a bargain" comments.

In that sense, let's go back to those teams. The most eye-catching numbers are those associated with the members of Team 1. Carl Robinson arrived in Toronto in a blaze of publicity, but two goals and four assists in his first season hardly justify his salary. Likewise, based on the money he'll earn this year alone, Conor Casey's goals in MLS have cost $95,004 each.


At least that duo is taking the field. More remarkable is the money being paid to players based on nothing more than potential they showed before they had even trained in a professional environment. Despite earning upwards of six figures in their rookie years, neither Amaechi Igwe nor Abdus Ibrahim made an appearance in MLS. Anthony Wallace logged one start. All three are on track to emulate Nikolas Besagno, the first pick of the 2005 SuperDraft, who has yet to make his 10th appearance for Real Salt Lake.

Clearly, what this trend indicates is that there is no financial substitute for excelling as a youngster. Generation adidas is a project which is based on helping players who opt to leave higher education before graduation and to ensure they sign with MLS rather than seeking opportunities in foreign lands. However, is the flip side of the program a comfort zone which fails to push its members to reach the limits of their abilities?

Of course, at the opposite end of the pay scale, there are the paupers of the league. Congratulations, here's a developmental contract and a pay check of $12,900. Welcome to MLS! Young players, who six months prior were teammates in the college game, enter the professional ranks at opposite ends of the pay scale. Is it possible to reliably put such varying price tags on unproven players? According to the figures, plus what we have seen with our own eyes, no. How else do you explain Nico Colaluca being $70,000 better off than Colin Clark?

Meanwhile, Team 2 features the late bloomers, over whom MLS has greater financial control. Whether through being a lower pick or even going undrafted entirely, or arriving from overseas, by signing low income deals, the likes of Bobby Boswell, Bouna Coundoul and Stuart Holden are vital members of any squad, performing as they do far in excess of the bottom line in their pay packet.

The truth is that, with the salary cap so rigidly in place, MLS remains a league of haves and have-nots. With little in the way of a developed bonus system for the majority of players, the question of how much money an individual can make from a career in the league is pretty much answered as soon as he puts pen to paper on his first contract.

Is it wrong? Not really. It's not like players don't know the way the league works, especially after watching similar situations unfold throughout the previous dozen years. However, what the latest salary statistics do show is that, as the league develops, so must the way its players are rewarded for their performances on the field, rather than any potential they display off it.

For, as we have seen through our game between Team 1 and Team 2, despite its stars, MLS remains a league that is reliant on its veteran pros. More so than any of the six-figure-earning next-big-things, these bread-and-butter types are the glue that holds the league together and, as such, there is a need to distribute the wealth a little more evenly. Then, perhaps, Team 2 will get the reward it deserves for beating Team 1.

MLS SalariesBig Earners (annual base salary)
David Beckham, L.A., $5.5 million
Cuauhtemoc Blanco, Chicago, $2.5 million
Marcelo Gallardo, D.C., $1.5 million
Juan Pablo Angel, New York, $1.5 million
Claudio Reyna, New York, $1.5 million

Top 5 Bargains
Maykel Galindo, Chivas USA, $79,750
Stuart Holden, Houston, $33,075
Sainey Nyassi, New England, $17,700
Devon McTavish, D.C., $33,000
Scott Sealy, Kansas City, $34,728

Top 5 Overpaid
Carl Robinson, Toronto, $330,000
Dema Kovalenko, RSL, $207,618
Ramiro Corrales, San Jose, $202,500
Colin Samuel, Toronto, $193,000
Conor Casey, Colorado, $190,008
[URL]http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=524551&cc=5901 (http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/archive?columnist=82&root=mls)

rocker
07-25-2009, 10:26 AM
years ago, statisticians of baseball made an interesting point.

They said that MLB should put in a rule where every single contract would be for only 1 season. No contract could be signed for more than 1 season in length.
Why? well it would mean a much closer correlation between performance and pay.

"underpaid" and "overpaid" really wouldn't exist beyond 1 season because players who suck would see an immediate drop, and players who are great would get a reward immediate after the season.

Now, it raises questions of security -- would you like to work every year knowing it could be your last? Or would teams love to see their rising players suddenly go to the opposition when they get good? But nonetheless, it would end overpaid/underpaid debates.

Personally I don't care to evaluate players as overpaid and underpaid, as that is so subjective. Every player arrives and then works under different market circumstances, much of which none of us understand. Value is based on so many factors (a guy who is underpaid at the start may be overpaid later to make up for it) that you can't take a player out of the market context and compare him to the next. For example, Stuart Holden is a bargain above because he has refused a better, longer term contract from Houston.

torontocelt
07-25-2009, 10:30 AM
Carl Robinson arrived in Toronto in a blaze of publicity, but two goals and four assists in his first season hardly justify his salary.

I cant really judge whether the guy is right as I simply do not know that much about the MLS to comment however I would question why the writer is attempting to judge Carl Robinson's effectiveness on goals and assists? Robinson is a defensive midfielder so that isnt really part of his game and any goals or assists you get from a defensive midfielder should be seen as a bonus. He is there to break up play, steady the team and retain possession so the guy is way off the mark and is assessing Carl completely wrongly, it does make me wonder what else he has twisted to suit his his opinion?

Beach_Red
07-25-2009, 10:45 AM
years ago, statisticians of baseball made an interesting point.

They said that MLB should put in a rule where every single contract would be for only 1 season. No contract could be signed for more than 1 season in length.
Why? well it would mean a much closer correlation between performance and pay.

"underpaid" and "overpaid" really wouldn't exist beyond 1 season because players who suck would see an immediate drop, and players who are great would get a reward immediate after the season.

Now, it raises questions of security -- would you like to work every year knowing it could be your last? Or would teams love to see their rising players suddenly go to the opposition when they get good? But nonetheless, it would end overpaid/underpaid debates.

Personally I don't care to evaluate players as overpaid and underpaid, as that is so subjective. Every player arrives and then works under different market circumstances, much of which none of us understand. Value is based on so many factors (a guy who is underpaid at the start may be overpaid later to make up for it) that you can't take a player out of the market context and compare him to the next. For example, Stuart Holden is a bargain above because he has refused a better, longer term contract from Houston.


What it really raises are questions of anti-trust and collusion. Look, I think sports owners need to be protected from themselves, they do so many dumb things and the fans always pay the price - but let's not get carried away :D. This would put ALL the risk on the players. Don't owners need to take SOME risk?

It also reduces the sport to the worst aspects of Total Quality Management - something that ruined many North American industries.

Maybe if players were evaluated over the whole length of the contract it would give a better picture of managers who made better decisions.

And statiticians have done a lot of damage to sports. The only time I know where a statician made a contribution was Bill James realizing that left-handed hitters didn't actually do any worse in Fenway.

rocker
07-25-2009, 10:49 AM
What it really raises are questions of anti-trust and collusion. Look, I think sports owners need to be protected from themselves, they do so many dumb things and the fans always pay the price - but let's not get carried away :D. This would put ALL the risk on the players. Don't owners need to take SOME risk?


what does it have to do with anti trust and collusion? MLS is exempt from those laws since it is single entity.

The risk is HUGE on the team... gotta treat the player right and then offer a good contract in the next season or the team is fucked.

This doesn't put the risk any more risk on the players -- players have risk right now that they won't get that big contract down the line because they might get injured. But if they played on 1-year deals, they would maximize their revenue potential immediately. If you sign a 4 year deal now, you basically lower your revenue potential.

It also puts emphasis on development, because you might lose guys, so you need to have a pipeline.

The one-year deal thing would actually have a nice balance between risk on either side -- the player has to perform to ensure a good contract -- and if he performs well he can see an immediate benefit (great incentive!) And the teams have risk that they don't lowball players in negotiations. And it would give players what they crave: free agency. That's a huge issue they are fighting for in this next CBA.

I'm not saying it's perfect or the best way to go, but the statisticians are correct -- it would eliminate the compaints of "overpaid" and "underpaid" and provide maximum revenue to performance potential.

Beach_Red
07-25-2009, 11:00 AM
If all the owners agree to only offer one-year contracts that's collusion. Some terms of contracts have been set by leagues - maximum salaries for rookies, for example - but limiting the length would likely be a tough sell in the courts. They could certainly try.

Players peak at different points in their careers and all try and maximize their earning during their peak times. I guess it's most often true that players rise fairly steadily to their peak, so a series of one year contracts with either the same team or a series of different teams would maximize that potential, but it is a risk that development could continue without a longer term contract. There's something for the staticians to look at, which year of a contract do players do best? If it's usually in the middle or later years of a contract, then maybe those years before are an important factor in performance.

There used to be this idea that the year before a player became a free agent would be his best year, but has that proven to be true?

One year contracts would mean no owner would ever be stuck with what he felt was an overpaid player, but I don't think it would mean that development would have to be improved. It would simply mean that rich teams would poach players as they got better. Which is what the Yankees do now and the only thing holding them back is that sometimes the Jays or Royals sign a player for 3 or 4 years and they have to wait for that contract to run out.

What would be the point of developing a player you could only sign to a one year contract?

v00d00daddy
07-25-2009, 03:22 PM
Carl Robinson arrived in Toronto in a blaze of publicity, but two goals and four assists in his first season hardly justify his salary.

I cant really judge whether the guy is right as I simply do not know that much about the MLS to comment however I would question why the writer is attempting to judge Carl Robinson's effectiveness on goals and assists? Robinson is a defensive midfielder so that isnt really part of his game and any goals or assists you get from a defensive midfielder should be seen as a bonus. He is there to break up play, steady the team and retain possession so the guy is way off the mark and is assessing Carl completely wrongly, it does make me wonder what else he has twisted to suit his his opinion?

1. Robbo does quite well. He can be a pain in the ass for the opposition.

2. Not sure if he does this all that well. TFC have gone through several periods where the team was horrible and Robbo was involved in each and every one. imo...he doesn't rock the boat but he also doesn't steady anything.

3. Does this terribly. He gives away possession way more than any DM should and has ZERO ability to move the ball forward.

james
07-25-2009, 03:44 PM
i think there is other players on TFC i would rather get rid of before id get rid of Vitti!

torontocelt
07-25-2009, 04:45 PM
1. Robbo does quite well. He can be a pain in the ass for the opposition.

2. Not sure if he does this all that well. TFC have gone through several periods where the team was horrible and Robbo was involved in each and every one. imo...he doesn't rock the boat but he also doesn't steady anything.

3. Does this terribly. He gives away possession way more than any DM should and has ZERO ability to move the ball forward.

Robinson is an okay player, what I was getting at is that he should be judged by his ability as a DM which is what you have done but the author of the article did not. It is almost the same as the author judging a center back by his goals and assists, it just does not make any sense.

v00d00daddy
07-25-2009, 05:08 PM
Robinson is an okay player, what I was getting at is that he should be judged by his ability as a DM which is what you have done but the author of the article did not. It is almost the same as the author judging a center back by his goals and assists, it just does not make any sense.

Absolutely. It's stupid to say Robbo is a bad player and cite his goals to back up a claim like that.

Robbo is mediocre, not because of his lack of scoring production, but because he can't link play between the backline and the attacking mids with any kind of consistency.

Some TFC fans have fallen in love with him because of the passion he plays with. Passion is fine and I appreciate it too. I just don't think that a guy like Robbo should be one of the highest paid players on your team when your cap is slightly over 2 million bucks.

Thats all.

I'd love to keep Robbo for around a 100k cause that's what he's worth.

Yohan
07-25-2009, 05:28 PM
I just don't think that a guy like Robbo should be one of the highest paid players on your team when your cap is slightly over 2 million bucks.

2.8 million, plus whatever allocation money your team has

Shakes McQueen
07-25-2009, 05:36 PM
Is it $2.8mil? I always thought it was closer to $2.3

- Scott

Yohan
07-25-2009, 05:47 PM
Is it $2.8mil? I always thought it was closer to $2.3

- Scott
i believe 2.3 was last year's figure.

i heard 2.8 for this year, but MLS salary cap is so frigging hard to figure out

Belfast_Boy
07-25-2009, 07:35 PM
I'm watching the man right now and he's fucking good. if he's not settled and we can expect more we're in for a treat. this dude isn't a guy that's going to put a lot in the net. but if he's on his game a lot that go into the net will be from plays from Vitti.

v00d00daddy
07-25-2009, 09:39 PM
I thought I would bump this thread for all of you who think Vitti is shit.

Congrats...you know know nothing about soccer.

Vitti was our best player again and TFC lost DESPITE of all of his work.

Keep the love fest going for Robbo....you look more and more idiotic with each passing day.

Dummies.

TFC07
07-25-2009, 10:11 PM
I thought I would bump this thread for all of you who think Vitti is shit.

Congrats...you know know nothing about soccer.

Vitti was our best player again and TFC lost DESPITE of all of his work.

Keep the love fest going for Robbo....you look more and more idiotic with each passing day.

Dummies.

1++.

Oblio2
07-25-2009, 10:25 PM
Its very unfair to say that people know nothing about football because they dislike Vitti. Its an opinion.
I think Robbo is our rock and Vitti is shit....it's my opinion. I know a hell of a lot about football...Just because I think this way, doesn't make me an idiot.

v00d00daddy
07-25-2009, 10:32 PM
Its very unfair to say that people know nothing about football because they dislike Vitti. Its an opinion.
I think Robbo is our rock and Vitti is shit....it's my opinion. I know a hell of a lot about football...Just because I think this way, doesn't make me an idiot.

You're right. It doesn't make you an idiot. It just shows that you're biased towards a style of play. I know you're an ex pat from the UK so your loyalties lie there.

Fair enough.

The problem is that you've been slagging Vitti since day one and, with each passing day, he's proving to be 10x the player that Robbo is.

How did you think Vitti played tonight? (and for the last few games for that matter)

v00d00daddy
07-25-2009, 10:34 PM
Its very unfair to say that people know nothing about football because they dislike Vitti. Its an opinion.
I think Robbo is our rock and Vitti is shit....it's my opinion. I know a hell of a lot about football...Just because I think this way, doesn't make me an idiot.


btw..when, in year 1, i said that I hated Robbo's game I was told over and over that I know nothing about soccer.

Don't worry. It's nothing personal. That comment was just me being a dick.

My apologies. I don't know any more about soccer than anybody else and it was shitty for me to post that way.

ps....robbo still sucks. :)

Oblio2
07-25-2009, 10:55 PM
That's fair enough. I thin k it's healthy to openly discuss players. I just think that labeling a person who thinks a player isn't good as person who has no clue about football, is ludicrous. For the record, you aren't the only one....

I don't see a problem in disagreeing over a player. Yes, Im an ex-pat. Im not sure what difference that makes. For what its worth, im a Tottenham fan and for those that know....we haven't had a decent defence since 1987 so, im not used to a holding Mid. I just really rate Robbo-I like the guy and think he's massively underrated.
Also, I did come out last week and say Vitti's skill was good but I just don't like him as a player. I dont think he's that great. My opinion, that all.

Raging Reggie
07-25-2009, 11:00 PM
Vitti was excellent tonight and there was one part in the first half i was really impressed with him getting past 2 crew players in a tight space, made me say wooooah!

There is alot of threads saying Vitti is shit this and that, but i think hes a fantastic player and its such hardlines that he hit the post and didnt score tonight. Game would have been completely different..... :(

He does seem to be growing more and more in confidence though with each passing game. I hope we sign him and keep him.

Sullivan
07-25-2009, 11:02 PM
I'll be honest, he's won me over.
Vitti's play and contribution over the past 2/3 weeks has been a vast improvement from his contribution over the 1st third of the season.

I do think he's overpaid, but the final decision comes at the end of the season.

And if he's back next year, I'll bet it'll be at a lower wage.

GBV
07-25-2009, 11:13 PM
i vote too much dough.

way.

pepher
07-26-2009, 08:36 AM
again, IMO...

Robinson and Vitti are two different conversations completely. In the first two years and parts of this year Robinson has been a force to be reckoned with. True, he appears to have had more stray passes this year but he is still a huge contributor to Heart and Soul out there. Just when there is a little bugger on the other team you want clobbered, Robinson comes in with one of his 'sending you a message' tackles.

Vitti on the other hand appears to use only 75% of his skill at any given time. He may not be but he comes across as having more to offer and is holding back. THAT is why I am not a Vitti fan. Clearly he has skill... that is not in question. He just seems to be a little to 'my job is done' when we're on defense. I don't see him often enough "fighting" for the ball... 'getting stuck in' so to speak. And is it so wrong to expect goals from him when he finds himself in so many goal scoring opportunities?

Credit where credit is due, he has played better in the last few games than he did in his first few games... it that enough to make me a fan? No... not yet.

v00d00daddy
07-26-2009, 08:47 AM
Okay.... No more comparing robbo to vitti.

You don't like Vitti because he doesn't get "stuck in" ?
Lol.

Whatever. Vitti was great last night. He creates chances for people and he will convert more of his own chances with each passing game.

106-12
07-26-2009, 08:56 AM
VITTI is the most talented player on our team .Nobody on the team could understand him or play with him and our coach is just watching. I just love it.

FluSH
07-26-2009, 09:08 AM
This entire thread should be erased after Vitti's performance yesterday and the past few games...

torontocelt
07-26-2009, 09:11 AM
I think too many people on these boards cannot accept any kind of constructive criticism about players and some people cannot take a comment for what it actually is. If someone says they think Vitti is an underachiever then some people interpret this as the person thinks Vitti is shit which also must make you a Vitti hater when this is not what was said.

As for Vitti people have mixed opinions about him due to his bad start, a bad start which basically lasted up until 4 - 5 games ago. Yes it may have taken him time to settle but there is no denying that for the majority of his TFC career he has been nothing more than an average player. He is now starting to come on to a game and show the potential he has and this is great. Slowly but surely he is beginning to win people over with his displays and even an idiot can see that there should be more to come. Vitti still has it all to prove to me and he still has it all to prove to himself. Vitti was once more highly rated than Messi and Aguero I believe, oh how the mighty have fallen. The truth is if Vitti was as good as some people on here seem to think then he would not be on loan at TFC in the first place.

v00d00daddy
07-26-2009, 09:23 AM
I think too many people on these boards cannot accept any kind of constructive criticism about players and some people cannot take a comment for what it actually is. If someone says they think Vitti is an underachiever then some people interpret this as the person thinks Vitti is shit which also must make you a Vitti hater when this is not what was said.

As for Vitti people have mixed opinions about him due to his bad start, a bad start which basically lasted up until 4 - 5 games ago. Yes it may have taken him time to settle but there is no denying that for the majority of his TFC career he has been nothing more than an average player. He is now starting to come on to a game and show the potential he has and this is great. Slowly but surely he is beginning to win people over with his displays and even an idiot can see that there should be more to come. Vitti still has it all to prove to me and he still has it all to prove to himself. Vitti was once more highly rated than Messi and Aguero I believe, oh how the mighty have fallen. The truth is if Vitti was as good as some people on here seem to think then he would not be on loan at TFC in the first place.


So what you've just said is that:

-Vitti is playing better lately
-Vitti has potential and there "should be more to come"
-Vitti still is not good enough for you
-Vitti is not good because he's on loan to TFC

Nice backhanded compliments.

It's much easier to swallow when you just come out and say the guy is shit. There was nothing constructive about your criticism anyway.

v00d00daddy
07-26-2009, 09:34 AM
I'm gonna say something that will probably draw a lot of anger from people but I truly believe it so here goes:

Some people dislike Vitti for the very simple fact that he's South American, plays a "flashy" style game, and isn't violent towards the opposition.

It's very clear that the majority of the supporters on this board have followed soccer from the U.K. the majority of their lives and that's cool.

It just seems that people don't want to like him because he's not a typical U.K. type player.

Guevara got the same treatment at the beginning (and still does sometimes)

It doesn't help that the guy is Argentinian and we know how highly thought of the Argentinians are amongst U.K. supporters.

I shudder to think at how an Italian or Portuguese player would be scrutinized if TFC were ever to sign one.

The fact is that Vitti plays with a lot of flair and has a great touch on the ball. Sometimes he gives the ball away because he's trying to do too much. It happens.

Just remember that he doesn't dive....he works hard and is quite good defensively.

So...go ahead and call me a xenophobe or whatever but I'm sure there a some of you out there that dislike the guy, despite his play, and more so because he has a ponytail and doesn't call other players lads or blokes.

rocker
07-26-2009, 09:36 AM
the only prob with that theory is many people in the past have called for TFC to sign south americans. That was the mantra for seasons 1 and 2 when Mo was bringing in UK players like Dichio and Robinson and Welsh... people were like "dude, you can grab amazing players down there!! come on Mo!!!"

Then we get a solid South American and people are on his ass.

I think it's more inflated expectations people have. Any player who willingly comes to MLS under the cap is probably a flawed player somehow. Gotta take the good with the bad.
I hope Vitti sticks around cuz he has more talent than just about anybody in this league and does good things (not 100% of the time, but more often than not).

bhoybobby
07-26-2009, 09:40 AM
Bottom line, Vitti, is TFC's most complete footballer. I hope he stays, with us & doesn't end up on another MLS team. He's playing on a very incomplete team & doing well despite his surroundings.

torontocelt
07-26-2009, 09:45 AM
So what you've just said is that:

-Vitti is playing better lately
-Vitti has potential and there "should be more to come"
-Vitti still is not good enough for you
-Vitti is not good because he's on loan to TFC

Nice backhanded compliments.

It's much easier to swallow when you just come out and say the guy is shit. There was nothing constructive about your criticism anyway.

Eh no that isn't what I was saying and yes you are one of the people that misinterpret what people write. What I am saying is that I will judge him over the course of an entire season not five games like some people have. Vitti does indeed have potential and I think there is more to come, as of yet no he is not good enough for me. Like I said if a player plays more average games than decent games over a course of a season then I will judge him accordingly. I never said Vitti was not good I said that his stock has fallen considerably and usually when that happens there is a reason for it, inconsitency over a course of a season would be a good explanation. I think you need to calm down and just take a moment to read what has been written before misinterpreting it to suit your own needs. For what it is worth acknowledging that someone is improving but still has room for improvement is actually constructive criticism.

torontocelt
07-26-2009, 09:50 AM
I'm gonna say something that will probably draw a lot of anger from people but I truly believe it so here goes:

Some people dislike Vitti for the very simple fact that he's South American, plays a "flashy" style game, and isn't violent towards the opposition.

It's very clear that the majority of the supporters on this board have followed soccer from the U.K. the majority of their lives and that's cool.

It just seems that people don't want to like him because he's not a typical U.K. type player.

Guevara got the same treatment at the beginning (and still does sometimes)

It doesn't help that the guy is Argentinian and we know how highly thought of the Argentinians are amongst U.K. supporters.

I shudder to think at how an Italian or Portuguese player would be scrutinized if TFC were ever to sign one.

The fact is that Vitti plays with a lot of flair and has a great touch on the ball. Sometimes he gives the ball away because he's trying to do too much. It happens.

Just remember that he doesn't dive....he works hard and is quite good defensively.

So...go ahead and call me a xenophobe or whatever but I'm sure there a some of you out there that dislike the guy, despite his play, and more so because he has a ponytail and doesn't call other players lads or blokes.

I think what you have written here is pretty much drivel.

v00d00daddy
07-26-2009, 09:55 AM
Vitti was once more highly rated than Messi and Aguero I believe, oh how the mighty have fallen. The truth is if Vitti was as good as some people on here seem to think then he would not be on loan at TFC in the first place.


Eh no that isn't what I was saying and yes you are one of the people that misinterpret what people write. What I am saying is that I will judge him over the course of an entire season not five games like some people have. Vitti does indeed have potential and I think there is more to come, as of yet no he is not good enough for me. Like I said if a player plays more average games than decent games over a course of a season then I will judge him accordingly. I never said Vitti was not good I said that his stock has fallen considerably and usually when that happens there is a reason for it, inconsitency over a course of a season would be a good explanation. I think you need to calm down and just take a moment to read what has been written before misinterpreting it to suit your own needs. For what it is worth acknowledging that someone is improving but still has room for improvement is actually constructive criticism.


Take a look at what I've bolded from your previous comment.

How is any of that constructive?

All you're saying is that he's no good. You're not saying why he's no good. Why don't you tell me where Vitti needs to improve? What does he not do well enough?

BTW..Vitti has played well ALL season. He's just been playing VERY WELL over the last few games. It seems that it's taken half a season for brick feet players like Brennan and Robbo to figure out how to play with a guy who has some skill.

v00d00daddy
07-26-2009, 09:56 AM
I think what you have written here is pretty much drivel.


lol. fair enough.

more constructive criticism.

well done.:)

torontocelt
07-26-2009, 09:57 AM
I am sure that Chelsea fans hated Zola, Man U fans must have hated having Ronaldo on their team also. It is fair to say neither of those guys were hard man, Ronaldo even wore an earing, must have been a poofta, he's not one of the lads. Zola was a midget, he couldn't tackle a fish supper.

Yep I am ssure this is what British ex pats must feel about two of the greatest players ever to grace the premiership.

bhoybobby
07-26-2009, 09:58 AM
I'm gonna say something that will probably draw a lot of anger from people but I truly believe it so here goes:

Some people dislike Vitti for the very simple fact that he's South American, plays a "flashy" style game, and isn't violent towards the opposition.

It's very clear that the majority of the supporters on this board have followed soccer from the U.K. the majority of their lives and that's cool.

It just seems that people don't want to like him because he's not a typical U.K. type player.

Guevara got the same treatment at the beginning (and still does sometimes)

It doesn't help that the guy is Argentinian and we know how highly thought of the Argentinians are amongst U.K. supporters.

I shudder to think at how an Italian or Portuguese player would be scrutinized if TFC were ever to sign one.

The fact is that Vitti plays with a lot of flair and has a great touch on the ball. Sometimes he gives the ball away because he's trying to do too much. It happens.

Just remember that he doesn't dive....he works hard and is quite good defensively.

So...go ahead and call me a xenophobe or whatever but I'm sure there a some of you out there that dislike the guy, despite his play, and more so because he has a ponytail and doesn't call other players lads or blokes.

You're way off base, I'm Scottish Canadian & I & many others, think he's a gem.

Yeah, you are being xenophobic, you shouldn't judge TFC fans that way. The vast majority can recognize talent & no talent. Sadly a lot of the one's that can't, post here.

That's why you get Marvell defenders & Vitti slaggers. Cant't believe I used Marvell & defend in the same line:scarf::)

torontocelt
07-26-2009, 10:00 AM
Take a look at what I've bolded from your previous comment.

How is any of that constructive?

All you're saying is that he's no good. You're not saying why he's no good. Why don't you tell me where Vitti needs to improve? What does he not do well enough?

BTW..Vitti has played well ALL season. He's just been playing VERY WELL over the last few games. It seems that it's taken half a season for brick feet players like Brennan and Robbo to figure out how to play with a guy who has some skill.

Haven't I said all along that he isn't consistent enough and that is what he needs to improve on?

torontocelt
07-26-2009, 10:02 AM
lol. fair enough.

more constructive criticism.

well done.:)

I didn't think your xenophobic drivel warranted constructive criticism. What you wrote was a load of shit, same as your comment about Vitti playing great all season.

torontocelt
07-26-2009, 10:16 AM
You're way off base, I'm Scottish Canadian & I & many others, think he's a gem.

Yeah, you are being xenophobic, you shouldn't judge TFC fans that way. The vast majority can recognize talent & no talent. Sadly a lot of the one's that can't, post here.

That's why you get Marvell defenders & Vitti slaggers. Cant't believe I used Marvell & defend in the same line:scarf::)
The beauty of football is that people have differing opinions on players, some mans Maradonna is another mans Rafeal Schidt. I don't think Marvell is a bad player but I do have a problem with his inability to control the football. With Vitti i think he is a decent player but that is it. If Vitti is anything other than decent then how good is Aiden McGeady at Celtic because he is certainly better than Vitti? Vitti is a decent player, McGeady is a very good player and Ronaldo is an exceptional player. I am certainly not going to say that Vitti is a great player because in the grand scheme of things he is not.

v00d00daddy
07-26-2009, 10:19 AM
Haven't I said all along that he isn't consistent enough and that is what he needs to improve on?


So your constructive criticism is that Vitti needs to play well more often and play poorly less often?

Beach_Red
07-26-2009, 10:21 AM
Wynne's defenders don't say he's a great player, they say in MLS you have to take the good with the bad and at this salary cap level he has enough good to balance the bad.

Last year Columbus won it all - was every player on their team better than Marvell Wynne?

bhoybobby
07-26-2009, 10:30 AM
The beauty of football is that people have differing opinions on players, some mans Maradonna is another mans Rafeal Schidt. I don't think Marvell is a bad player but I do have a problem with his inability to control the football. With Vitti i think he is a decent player but that is it. If Vitti is anything other than decent then how good is Aiden McGeady at Celtic because he is certainly better than Vitti? Vitti is a decent player, McGeady is a very good player and Ronaldo is an exceptional player. I am certainly not going to say that Vitti is a great player because in the grand scheme of things he is not.

In the context of TFC & MLS, he is.

v00d00daddy
07-26-2009, 10:32 AM
You're way off base, I'm Scottish Canadian & I & many others, think he's a gem.

Yeah, you are being xenophobic, you shouldn't judge TFC fans that way. The vast majority can recognize talent & no talent. Sadly a lot of the one's that can't, post here.

That's why you get Marvell defenders & Vitti slaggers. Cant't believe I used Marvell & defend in the same line:scarf::)

You're the reason why I hesitated to say "all" U.K. fans. You and I seem to see eye to eye on most things TFC related.

I just don't buy the idea that people look at Vitti and don't see talent. I mean, if people see talent in Robbo, Wynne, and Brennan...how on earth do they not see it in Vitti. There has to be something else to it.

Like I said, it's not a popular stance to take because I know people will get their backs up, but I really think that some people need to be more honest. I think it's a bit of the elephant in the room with this club and always has been.

Name two other players with TFC who are as talented as Vitti and Guevara who have been criticized the way those guys are.

When was the last time somebody was critical of Dichio.

I mean, people on this board have called one of their own players (Guevara) a diving cunt. People have also felt the need to comment about Vitti's hairband.

I just don't get why this shit gets glossed over.

Whatever, I may be wrong but it's not like I'm creating this out of thin air.

There are people who dislike a guy like Vitti simply because of the type of player he is and where he comes from. They just won't admit it.

Also, it's wrong of me to characterize all U.K. fans in the same light. Apologies. I will say this though, there were a shit load of anti Argentina/South American comments made at the River Plate game and it didn't surprise me at all.

bhoybobby
07-26-2009, 10:41 AM
You're the reason why I hesitated to say "all" U.K. fans. You and I seem to see eye to eye on most things TFC related.


I just don't buy the idea that people look at Vitti and don't see talent. I mean, if people see talent in Robbo, Wynne, and Brennan...how on earth do they not see it in Vitti. There has to be something else to it.

Like I said, it's not a popular stance to take because I know people will get their backs up, but I really think that some people need to be more honest. I think it's a bit of the elephant in the room with this club and always has been.

Name two other players with TFC who are as talented as Vitti and Guevara who have been criticized the way those guys are.

When was the last time somebody was critical of Dichio.

I mean, people on this board have called one of their own players (Guevara) a diving cunt. People have also felt the need to comment about Vitti's hairband.

I just don't get why this shit gets glossed over.

Whatever, I may be wrong but it's not like I'm creating this out of thin air.

There are people who dislike a guy like Vitti simply because of the type of player he is and where he comes from. They just won't admit it.

Also, it's wrong of me to characterize all U.K. fans in the same light. Apologies. I will say this though, there were a shit load of anti Argentina/South American comments made at the River Plate game and it didn't surprise me at all.



Sorry hombre, I'm not a Gueverra fan. Selfish & self indulgent in the extreme. He wastes so many balls, the occasional sublime stuff he does, does not make up for the waste.

With Robbo & Gueverra playing in the middle, we're gonna be hard pressed to make the play-offs, we give possesion away to cheaply & don't have the defense to mop up.

I don't think you wanna hitch your wagon with my views I'm not liked by the football wannabe brainiacs here.:scarf:

torontocelt
07-26-2009, 10:41 AM
So your constructive criticism is that Vitti needs to play well more often and play poorly less often?

Pretty much, consistency is a major part of football. At the start of the season he didn't contribute much, was regularly subbed and didn't start many matches. He would drift in and out of matches and generally wasn't very productive. He can improve by imposing himself on the match more, stop trying to take on too many men on and losing the ball, play the simple pass if need be, shoot more on goal and chip in with more goals in general.

I dont really understand what your grievance is with my opinion of Vitti, I haven't said he is shit, all I have said is I think he is a decent player who can be more consistent and has room for improvment, is that so hard to understand?

Pachuco
07-26-2009, 11:14 AM
Vitti is one heck of a player and we'd be lucky to have him next year. He adds a ton of quality to this team.

It's pretty fucking simple to me, Vitti had a slow start because not only was he playing under the worst coach in MLS history, but he barely got minutes and when he did, he was playing out of position. Ever since Cummins has him playing in a more drawn back true midfield role as opposed to wing role Vitti has come into his own.

Listen guys, did you see what happened to Dero after Guevara came off? he played like absolute shit in the center of the park. Dero is not a central midfielder and Vitti is not a winger. You play them out of position and it's quite obvious right away that they aren't comfortable there.

Pachuco
07-26-2009, 11:15 AM
Sorry hombre, I'm not a Gueverra fan. Selfish & self indulgent in the extreme. He wastes so many balls, the occasional sublime stuff he does, does not make up for the waste.

With Robbo & Gueverra playing in the middle, we're gonna be hard pressed to make the play-offs, we give possesion away to cheaply & don't have the defense to mop up.

I don't think you wanna hitch your wagon with my views I'm not liked by the football wannabe brainiacs here.:scarf:

haha, now this is some funny shit. Guevara and Robbo are the cause of us not making the playoffs. Wow, just Wow.

fetajr
07-26-2009, 11:16 AM
focus the hate on Barret and Velez, those guys suck, not Vitti

Blizzard
07-26-2009, 01:03 PM
focus the hate on Barret and Velez, those guys suck, not Vitti


Last night Barret played quite well. Playing in more of a support role is the perfect place for him IMO.

It's only on the actual finishing that he "sucks".

fetajr
07-26-2009, 02:23 PM
I'm gonna say something that will probably draw a lot of anger from people but I truly believe it so here goes:

Some people dislike Vitti for the very simple fact that he's South American, plays a "flashy" style game, and isn't violent towards the opposition.

It's very clear that the majority of the supporters on this board have followed soccer from the U.K. the majority of their lives and that's cool.

It just seems that people don't want to like him because he's not a typical U.K. type player.

Guevara got the same treatment at the beginning (and still does sometimes)

It doesn't help that the guy is Argentinian and we know how highly thought of the Argentinians are amongst U.K. supporters.

I shudder to think at how an Italian or Portuguese player would be scrutinized if TFC were ever to sign one.

The fact is that Vitti plays with a lot of flair and has a great touch on the ball. Sometimes he gives the ball away because he's trying to do too much. It happens.

Just remember that he doesn't dive....he works hard and is quite good defensively.

So...go ahead and call me a xenophobe or whatever but I'm sure there a some of you out there that dislike the guy, despite his play, and more so because he has a ponytail and doesn't call other players lads or blokes.

Glad you said this.

Its been on my mind for a while now and didn't know how to say it nicely.

It also worries me that it will be a long time before we see TFC adopt a latin american/european style of possession futbol, which would command for change in ideology from the top - down.

Darlofletch
07-26-2009, 02:46 PM
I'd say since the game in Houston when he came on at half time, Vitti's been one of our best players (the montreal game aside, he was shit in that game) and has done really well playing centrally, so much so I'd say don't move him to put Guevara back there when Cronin comes back or JDG comes in.

For me the main thing he's doing better is that he's not trying to do too much, maybe that's just that he's got more passing options than when he was stuck out on the wing.

And to answer another point, Guevara does dive, some people would call it clever, and knowing how to draw a foul and so on, but let's call it what it is, diving. Yes I'm from the U.K, my apologies for not being able to appreciate the finer arts of Latin American play.

Davenport
07-26-2009, 03:07 PM
No, he should not. A prime example of North American sports fans relying too much on statistics to evaluate a player. This works in baseball, not footy. Vitti is a very dangerous offensive weapon for TFC. Also...do a quick search before you open a new thread.

He is a goalscoring machine.

Belfast_Boy
07-26-2009, 03:21 PM
I'm gonna say something that will probably draw a lot of anger from people but I truly believe it so here goes:

Some people dislike Vitti for the very simple fact that he's South American, plays a "flashy" style game, and isn't violent towards the opposition.

It's very clear that the majority of the supporters on this board have followed soccer from the U.K. the majority of their lives and that's cool.

It just seems that people don't want to like him because he's not a typical U.K. type player.

Guevara got the same treatment at the beginning (and still does sometimes)

It doesn't help that the guy is Argentinian and we know how highly thought of the Argentinians are amongst U.K. supporters.

I shudder to think at how an Italian or Portuguese player would be scrutinized if TFC were ever to sign one.

The fact is that Vitti plays with a lot of flair and has a great touch on the ball. Sometimes he gives the ball away because he's trying to do too much. It happens.

Just remember that he doesn't dive....he works hard and is quite good defensively.

So...go ahead and call me a xenophobe or whatever but I'm sure there a some of you out there that dislike the guy, despite his play, and more so because he has a ponytail and doesn't call other players lads or blokes.

I'm one of the people that was brought up on EPL, even before it was called EPL.
I have a question are Torres, Mascherano or even Ronaldo typical UK players? or even players like Dwight York or Henry or John Barnes?
As a kid my hero was Kevin Keegan but I could still appreciate the greatness of Pele and was fortunate enough to see him play. If your opinion is right and the dislike is caused by underlying racism then that's very sad. I hope that's incorrect.
I started this thread because his name was raised quite a few times in other threads. his contribution and cost were brought into question. Thanks to the knowledgeable and insightful comments from other RPB I took another look at him. He's a very talented man with great sight and patience. he seems to improve with every game. I think he's settling in and will be feeding Gerba some great balls that will hopefully find the back of the net.

mmmikey
07-26-2009, 03:28 PM
I'm one of the people that was brought up on EPL, even before it was called EPL.
I have a question are Torres, Mascherano or even Ronaldo typical UK players? or even players like Dwight York or Henry or John Barnes?
As a kid my hero was Kevin Keegan but I could still appreciate the greatness of Pele and was fortunate enough to see him play. If your opinion is right and the dislike is caused by underlying racism then that's very sad. I hope that's incorrect.
I started this thread because his name was raised quite a few times in other threads. his contribution and cost were brought into question. Thanks to the knowledgeable and insightful comments from other RPB I took another look at him. He's a very talented man with great sight and patience. he seems to improve with every game. I think he's settling in and will be feeding Gerba some great balls that will hopefully find the back of the net.

this is a great post and the way a thread like this should come full circle with the original poster actually being an active member of the discussion and taking the responses he gets to heart. your a rare breed on a message board mark ;)

Davenport
07-26-2009, 03:32 PM
[quote=v00d00daddy;639329]I'm gonna say something that will probably draw a lot of anger from people but I truly believe it so here goes:

Some people dislike Vitti for the very simple fact that he's South American, plays a "flashy" style game, and isn't violent towards the opposition.


If he produced the goods I wouldn't care if he was green.
But I'm afraid he's shite and that's why we're not keen on him.
However, it's not his fault..he tries his best bless him, and I'm sure his mother loves him to bits, but his best is not good enough.
When you pay good money to watch a product you expect a decent return and at the moment most of the team, including Vitti are not delivering.
Once again...it's Johnston's fault for getting a player in who's just noot good enough.

torontocelt
07-26-2009, 03:35 PM
I'm one of the people that was brought up on EPL, even before it was called EPL.
I have a question are Torres, Mascherano or even Ronaldo typical UK players? or even players like Dwight York or Henry or John Barnes?
As a kid my hero was Kevin Keegan but I could still appreciate the greatness of Pele and was fortunate enough to see him play. If your opinion is right and the dislike is caused by underlying racism then that's very sad. I hope that's incorrect.
I started this thread because his name was raised quite a few times in other threads. his contribution and cost were brought into question. Thanks to the knowledgeable and insightful comments from other RPB I took another look at him. He's a very talented man with great sight and patience. he seems to improve with every game. I think he's settling in and will be feeding Gerba some great balls that will hopefully find the back of the net.

If the people who believe that the majority of British ex pats are xenophobic want to name the names of supporters who have apparently been xenophobic then I would be more inclined to believe what they are claiming. The only xenophobic comment I have read on this thread so far is from the person who labeled the majority of British ex pats as xenophobes. I would find it very difficult to believe that people are judging the talents of Pablo Vitti on anything other than his football and I have certainly never read any postings which judge him on anything but his football skills. You hit the nail right on the head when you mentioned Torres, Mascharrano and Ronaldo as all were / are loved by their respective supporters. To that list you can also add Alonso, Essien, Tevez and most probably a whole lot more. What do they all have in common, well they are all foreiners who play in Britain. Before accepting what they are writing as fact I would wait to see if they can back any of what they claim up. Furthermore until they can back it up if I were you I would be offended by their rash and unjust generalizations against British people.

Belfast_Boy
07-26-2009, 03:51 PM
this is a great post and the way a thread like this should come full circle with the original poster actually being an active member of the discussion and taking the responses he gets to heart. your a rare breed on a message board mark ;)

Thanks, that's cool to hear. it's too easy to verbally wank off. but I found i learn more when I listen.

v00d00daddy
07-26-2009, 04:26 PM
If the people who believe that the majority of British ex pats are xenophobic want to name the names of supporters who have apparently been xenophobic then I would be more inclined to believe what they are claiming. The only xenophobic comment I have read on this thread so far is from the person who labeled the majority of British ex pats as xenophobes. I would find it very difficult to believe that people are judging the talents of Pablo Vitti on anything other than his football and I have certainly never read any postings which judge him on anything but his football skills. You hit the nail right on the head when you mentioned Torres, Mascharrano and Ronaldo as all were / are loved by their respective supporters. To that list you can also add Alonso, Essien, Tevez and most probably a whole lot more. What do they all have in common, well they are all foreiners who play in Britain. Before accepting what they are writing as fact I would wait to see if they can back any of what they claim up. Furthermore until they can back it up if I were you I would be offended by their rash and unjust generalizations against British people.

Please stop putting words in my mouth. I never called anybody a xenophobe.

btw...my comment wasn't about British people...it is about British soccer fans. I have absolutely no issue with people from the UK or anywhere else for that matter. I just don't think every player can be judged on how high is work rate is, or how often he gets stuck in. It has nothing to do with Brits as people...just some of them, as footy fans.

bhoybobby
07-26-2009, 04:38 PM
haha, now this is some funny shit. Guevara and Robbo are the cause of us not making the playoffs. Wow, just Wow.

Nuthin funny 'bout it. They're not alone:

Here's why in no particular order:

Mo: Hasn't added enough quality to the squad

Wynne: Cannot defend, no postional awareness. O.k going forward.
Velez: Utter shite
Robbo: Having a sub par year, cannot make a forward pass
Brennan: Struggling to maintain his standards
Gueverra: Talented, but self centred, low success rate on deadballs
Barrett: Took far too long to come into any sort of game, ilmproving tho
Injuries: Always gonna happen, that's where the squad depth comes in

Gerba: Bless him for his goal, but a squad player at best, 1 dimensional

Coaching: I don't think that's the problem, it's the lack of talent to work with

We're carrying too many passengers & have no quality back up to push for a place.

Football's a cruel business as per last night:scarf:

torontocelt
07-26-2009, 04:44 PM
Please stop putting words in my mouth. I never called anybody a xenophobe.

btw...my comment wasn't about British people...it is about British soccer fans. I have absolutely no issue with people from the UK or anywhere else for that matter. I just don't think every player can be judged on how high is work rate is, or how often he gets stuck in. It has nothing to do with Brits as people...just some of them, as footy fans.

Well that is good to hear and I apologize if I misunderstood what you were meaning but when you write things like 'It doesn't help that the guy is Argentinian and we know how highly thought of the Argentinians are amongst U.K. supporters', it makes me think that you are directly attacking British people? The only possible issues I think you can be bringing up here involve British people, these being the Falklands war and the English national team being defeated by Argentina in a couple of world cups. I cannot think of any reasons for a non Brit who follows British football to have an issue with Argentine players based purely on his nationality? Furthermore you also said:

There are people who dislike a guy like Vitti simply because of the type of player he is and where he comes from. They just won't admit it.

Please tell me why someone would dislike Vitti purely based on where he is from? In fact don't bother because this is a load of nonsense just like the original claim was. People do not dislike Vitti because he is Argentinian, I have never read anything on these boards which would back that up.

Shakes McQueen
07-26-2009, 05:00 PM
I think it's funny that people are getting up Gerba's ass already, and calling him things like a "squad player at best", when so far he has one goal in one actual game for us.

When knew he didn't have blazing speed, or mesmerizing moves when we bought him. We brought him in, because he's a strong target man who can poach the easy ones we always miss.

I also think it's offensive to insinuate that some people here don't like Vitti simply because he's South American, without specifically naming any names.

- Scott

bhoybobby
07-26-2009, 05:52 PM
Well that is good to hear and I apologize if I misunderstood what you were meaning but when you write things like 'It doesn't help that the guy is Argentinian and we know how highly thought of the Argentinians are amongst U.K. supporters', it makes me think that you are directly attacking British people? The only possible issues I think you can be bringing up here involve British people, these being the Falklands war and the English national team being defeated by Argentina in a couple of world cups. I cannot think of any reasons for a non Brit who follows British football to have an issue with Argentine players based purely on his nationality? Furthermore you also said:

There are people who dislike a guy like Vitti simply because of the type of player he is and where he comes from. They just won't admit it.

Please tell me why someone would dislike Vitti purely based on where he is from? In fact don't bother because this is a load of nonsense just like the original claim was. People do not dislike Vitti because he is Argentinian, I have never read anything on these boards which would back that up.

All valid points. All that's missing is why you don't rate him from a footballing stance.

I thought he was our MOM last night, simply outstanding

MartinUtd
07-26-2009, 05:56 PM
Keep him for the season.

The further Honduras goes into WCQ, the more valuable Vitti is to our line up.

v00d00daddy
07-26-2009, 06:08 PM
Well that is good to hear and I apologize if I misunderstood what you were meaning but when you write things like 'It doesn't help that the guy is Argentinian and we know how highly thought of the Argentinians are amongst U.K. supporters', it makes me think that you are directly attacking British people? The only possible issues I think you can be bringing up here involve British people, these being the Falklands war and the English national team being defeated by Argentina in a couple of world cups. I cannot think of any reasons for a non Brit who follows British football to have an issue with Argentine players based purely on his nationality? Furthermore you also said:

There are people who dislike a guy like Vitti simply because of the type of player he is and where he comes from. They just won't admit it.

Please tell me why someone would dislike Vitti purely based on where he is from? In fact don't bother because this is a load of nonsense just like the original claim was. People do not dislike Vitti because he is Argentinian, I have never read anything on these boards which would back that up.

My apologies. I was never saying that people like player "x" because of nationality "y".

What I mean is that I think people don't like Vitti because of where he's from which, in turn, dictates the style of his play. Typically, fans of UK style football are not fans of South American style football. (there are exceptions of course)

I never meant to say that I think Brits don't like Argentinians.

torontocelt
07-26-2009, 07:03 PM
My apologies. I was never saying that people like player "x" because of nationality "y".

What I mean is that I think people don't like Vitti because of where he's from which, in turn, dictates the style of his play. Typically, fans of UK style football are not fans of South American style football. (there are exceptions of course)

I never meant to say that I think Brits don't like Argentinians.

That's okay but Brits do like South American footballers, the reason that we like watching South Americans is that our footballers traditionally cannot do the things they are capable of doing. I know that at the world cups two of the teams that excite people the most is Brazil and Argentina. One of my earliest memories of football was watching Maradona at Mexico 86 tearing teams apart, how could someone not like that? Obviously from watching dvd's, videos, tv etc I have seen the Brazil team of 1970, 74, 82 etc and marveled at their brilliance. Traditionally South Americans have not settled well in British football for whatever reason alhough they have settled well in Italy and Spain. You are right when you say Brits do not like the diving aspect of their game but they certainly respect their football ability. South Americans are not the only known divers though, you could add some Italian players to that as well and many other European non British players, each gets critised in Britain for diving not just SA exclusively.

torontocelt
07-26-2009, 07:10 PM
All valid points. All that's missing is why you don't rate him from a footballing stance.

I thought he was our MOM last night, simply outstanding

Well I never said I didn't rate him, I simply said I thought he was a decent player who has been inconsistent throughout the season. I did say I have recognized he is improving and I am glad to see it. I think the problem might be when I rate players I do it from a world perspective and not from an MLS perspective. To me Vitti is only a decent player on a world stage although I do recognize that in the MLS as a player he is better than decent. Obviously he has more talent than a lot of the other Toronto FC players but for me that doesn't make him great it just means that some of the other players aren't very good.

scooter
07-26-2009, 07:35 PM
I'd love to hear what DeRo, Guevara, Robbo and Dichio have to say about Vitti. Saying he doesn't increase the level of play on the pitch is bollocks. His link up play with DeRo and Guevara over the past few weeks has been great.

People need to stop expecting goals out of Vitti and let him direct traffic on the pitch, like he should be doing.

Also, I ask the Vitti doubters/haters, have you ever paid any attention to Vitti when he doesn't have the ball? He makes the defenders work. Constantly cutting across the defense, opening up holes and getting into fantastic positions. His work coming back to help out has been great as well, definitely our most successful tackler outside of the defense.

+1
he is stellar and folks that dont know the game cannot see his work both on and off the ball -----its brilliant

Blizzard
07-26-2009, 07:47 PM
+1
he is stellar and folks that dont know the game cannot see his work both on and off the ball -----its brilliant

He is top notch. His work over the past several weeks has been nothing less than exemplary.

He cannot be faulted. He has found his groove!

SPARTACUS
07-27-2009, 07:50 PM
There are some very dillusional peeps up in this place. Yes he took awhile to find the net...So what the man has skillz! He never stops moving, watch he makes a pass and moves into an open space, always looking and anticipating the play. This is proper football plain and simple. The latin americans play it best its been proven and Vitti has it. The squad if you watch are now responding and actually feeding off his "dribbles' "runs" and energy. I think its quite pathetic for some of you to be calling him out. In the future...think before you speak. Or at least know the basic fundamentals of the game and know when to respect the game when its played properly. Sometimes Canadians embarass the feck out of me! He is quality bottomline.

Point the finger at Velez...useless tit. It was he that couldn't mark up Lenhart for feck sakes! Like come on man you just stepped on the park and you should have been all over him like a beautiful blonde with a french vanilla azz! But ohhhhh no too busy ball watching. Like Feck!!!!!!! Dare I bring up his Baggio against River! What the feck was that? Placement b4 power! Thats the 1st thing you learn when taking spot kicks!!!! I actually blame the coaches for allowing this momo to take one...:facepalm:

Shakes McQueen
07-27-2009, 07:55 PM
There are some very dillusional peeps up in this place. Yes he took awhile to find the net...So what the man has skillz! He never stops moving, watch he makes a pass and moves into an open space, always looking and anticipating the play. This is proper football plain and simple. The latin americans play it best its been proven and Vitti has it. The squad if you watch are now responding and actually feeding off his "dribbles' "runs" and energy. I think its quite pathetic for some of you to be calling him out. In the future...think before you speak. Or at least know the basic fundamentals of the game and know when to respect the game when its played properly. Sometimes Canadians embarass the feck out of me! He is quality bottomline.

I'm getting really fucking tired of this.

- Scott

gino12
07-27-2009, 07:59 PM
vitti needs to leave immediatelyyyyyyyyyyy fuck him straight up personal issues.

Derko
07-27-2009, 07:59 PM
My vote is Vitti should stay at TFC, but my vote really doesn't mean jack shit if management think otherwise, I like watching the man play football, and he can do that very well, If that strike at Columbus had have gone in, the game would have been totally different. Just my thoughts.

SPARTACUS
07-27-2009, 08:01 PM
I'm getting really fucking tired of this.

- Scott
Elaborate please........................................

Shakes McQueen
07-27-2009, 08:12 PM
Elaborate please........................................

I'm getting really fucking tired of people accusing other people of "not knowing the game", every time they have the audacity to have a different opinion.

- Scott

torontocelt
07-27-2009, 09:20 PM
I'm getting really fucking tired of people accusing other people of "not knowing the game", every time they have the audacity to have a different opinion.

- Scott

+1

Football is all about having different opinions of players, like I have said previous one mans Maradonna is another mans Rafeal Schidt, it is all a matter of opinion.

Some great players have courted differing opinions from fans, some way more successful than Pablo Vitti. Some successful players debated by fans include Kris Boyd (averages more than a goal every two games for Rangers but doesn't do enough off the ball), Adeboyor - (aparently doesn't try hard enough but still scored a goal almost every two games for Arsenal), Henrik Larsson (depsite being prolific at international football some said that his success at Celtic counted for nothing and that he would not be able to cut it in the premiership). There are countless others over the years who people have had differing opinions about, it is part of football. I have seen hundreds if not thousands of players better than Vitti, that is one reason I don't feel the need to wax lyrical about the man.

Here is an article from the times from 2007 detailing their top 50 current footballers at that time, some of the names on there I would contend shouldn't be there, does this mean I know nothing about football?

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/article1963015.ece