Things that MLS can use improvements on

[Yohan]

But please, no more rants about salary cap or luxury tax ;)

Anyways. Few things I think would make MLS a better league

1. No more games on international dates
-Probably the #1 beef for a lot of people, and it's mine too. Simply because most teams end up missing 2-3 key players per game, and that just affects the team and quality of the game played.
-MLS is trying to reduce the effects of international dates by lengthening the season and spreading out the games more. However, MLS is not going to take 3 weeks off for major tournament. Most markets rely on Sat games to get max attendance.
-My proposal is to schedule as many bye weeks (a team has no league games on bye weeks) as possible on international dates (WCQs, friendlies etc). For teams with good attendance, give option to move games on a weekday. So for teams like DC and TFC can have a game on a Wed if players are called up for a Sat game, so at least the team has the option of using their players for important league games.

2. Balance out the scheduling
-It's absolutely ridiculous that a team has to play 4 straight league games away from home (Houston), or get 5 straight at home. (NY) This league is all about parity, but where is the parity with unbalanced schedule?
-The schedule should be set each team plays other teams once every half season. No teams should play more than 2 straight league games at home or away. (ok. maybe 3 pending on extenuating circumstances) No more home and away series, which nobody in MLS seems to take seriously. Home and away series might work for NHL or other NA leagues, but not for MLS since the teams don't play against each other enough.

3. Increase minimum wage
-Currently, league minimum is set at $33,000 for Senior Roster players. You can probably make that much on a full time McDonald's salary. Development Roster players can earn as little as $12,900. With league regulations preventing teams from giving financial assistance to players, this means severe hardship for players making very little wage.
-Some cities like LA, NYC have high living expenses. So players end up living together, some players end up taking an additional part time job to supplement their income. Not cool.
-These guys are suppose to be professional players in the top most tier league in North America. Treat them as such, and give them a decent wage so that they aren't living in ridiculous low standard of living.
-If you're going to attract better players, you gotta pay them a wage that they can actually live off of.

4. Increase roster spots
-Currently, MLS allows 20 players in senior roster, plus 4 developmental roster. This is too small of a roster for the number of games that a team may play.
-A team plays 30 regular season games, plus domestic cup tournament. A team may also play in SuperLiga or CONCACAF Champion's League. Add in pre-season and mid season friendlies, plus grueling travelling schedule, injuries, and you get a lot of burnouts due to lack of depth.
-If you want more quality games, you have to have depth in your team. Adding 4 more senior roster spots would give a team more flexibility, and reduce burnouts of players, therefore enhancing the quality of the games.

[Eastend]

5. Increase quality of the refs.
- Really no need to explain this one.

[redcard]

5. Increase quality of the refs.
- Really no need to explain this one.

This should be a high priority

[The Kingpin]

Football Specific Stadiums...

[brad]

6: Bring reserve league back
-subs and fringe players need to play regular games at a competitive level so they have a better chance of breaking into the first team, being closer to match fitness when needed, and give injured players a better outlet for regaining match fitness.

7: Designated Player signings (or any signings for that matter)
-should be at the teams discretion if the teams. The league should not be evaluating these contracts based on how many shirt sales they will bring in or other such non-sense.

Oh, I left the part about the cap out as you requested it, but I will say the cap really does need to go up if you are going to increase the roster spots.

[Yohan]

Football Specific Stadiums...
which in works for most teams.

I think except for Seattle, New England and Vancouver, all teams in MLS will be in a SSS by 2011-12. New England is also exploring a SSS proposal, but nothing concrete set in stone yet. then there is DC situation.

[rocker]

3. Increase minimum wage
-Currently, league minimum is set at $33,000 for Senior Roster players. You can probably make that much on a full time McDonald's salary. Development Roster players can earn as little as $12,900. With league regulations preventing teams from giving financial assistance to players, this means severe hardship for players making very little wage.
-Some cities like LA, NYC have high living expenses. So players end up living together, some players end up taking an additional part time job to supplement their income. Not cool.
-These guys are suppose to be professional players in the top most tier league in North America. Treat them as such, and give them a decent wage so that they aren't living in ridiculous low standard of living.
-If you're going to attract better players, you gotta pay them a wage that they can actually live off of.


I don't think it's up to the league to worry about this. I think it's up to the players union to fight for this.

Many of those backend roster players probably don't have any options anyways, and better ones aren't going to stay or come back for 40-50K. So the league would be just giving away money out of the goodness of their hearts, which is bad business.

Unions exist to demand more...

[Yohan]

I don't think it's up to the league to worry about this. I think it's up to the players union to fight for this.
The new CBA will hopefully address minimum salary issue


Many of those backend roster players probably don't have any options anyways, and better ones aren't going to stay or come back for 40-50K. So the league would be just giving away money out of the goodness of their hearts, which is bad business.

Unions exist to demand more...
Well, there's always USL. lol

Strength of any MLS team isn't how many star players you have, but how well your low end salary players perform.

I fail to see how it's bad business when your league gets laughed at for your players needing to get a 2nd job to pay bills. Increasing minumum wage will hopefully give the league little bit more respect.
Seriously. You don't think the league should be concerned about quality of living of its players?

[Rudi]

Development Roster players can earn as little as $12,900.
Just a small correction here. Dev salaries are 20K minimum as of this year.

[flatpicker]

Just a small correction here. Dev salaries are 20K minimum as of this year.

in that case, I think I will call TFC and see if they might develop me into a soccer player... and pay me $20,ooo!

[Yohan]

Just a small correction here. Dev salaries are 20K minimum as of this year.
garrrr. I'll never be able to keep up with all these changes:drinking:

[KrazyKanadian]

8. Eliminate mid-season friendlies
They do nothing but tire out the over-worked starters and give opportunities for injuries. If they're so critical to the success of this league, move the games to the pre- or post-season. The schedule is busy enough with all the little "cup" games and qualifiers.

[Parkdale]

8. Eliminate mid-season friendlies
They do nothing but tire out the over-worked starters and give opportunities for injuries. If they're so critical to the success of this league, move the games to the pre- or post-season. The schedule is busy enough with all the little "cup" games and qualifiers.

I see your point, but like always on The Internet®, there's another side too it.

If MLS is trying to grow the league by bringing in the fans of international clubs (like the River fans from yesterday), it has to be during a good time of the year. We'd go to BMO in a blizzard to watch the team, but not everyone would.

Also, there's just no time before our season, and very little time after, especially with playoff runs. As it stands now, we can't play our first game of a new season at home because of the weather. I can't see them doing a friendly before that.

now unlike most of The Internet®, I'm going to offer a solution!

Have the all-star game on a weekend, and don't schedule ANY league games the week before or after. That's a nice two week window for all the teams in the league to book friendlies. It would be one killer week of football for the fans, and it help grow the league.

After a season or two, major international clubs would know that every year, at about the same time, there's a massive gathering of international clubs in North America, and maybe they'd even look forward to it?


holy crap.... a solution!

[flatpicker]

^ not a bad idea Parky... you should pass that along to your prawn friends!

[Parkdale]

^ not a bad idea Parky... you should pass that along to your prawn friends!


they don't listen to me. I'm just there to give them 'street cred'.

[Yohan]

now unlike most of The Internet®, I'm going to offer a solution!

Simple solution. Have the all-star game on a weekend, and don't schedule ANY league games the week before or after. That's a nice two week window for all the teams in the league to book friendlies. It would be one killer week of football for the fans, and it help grow the league.

After a year or two, major international clubs would know that every year, in about the same time, there's a massive gathering of international clubs in North America, and maybe they'd even look forward to it?

interesting idea

there's going to be a bit of crazy bidding war to host friendlies. and not all european teams schedule their friendlies to accomodate MLS dates

still. very interesting idea

[flatpicker]

they don't listen to me. I'm just there to give them 'street cred'.


but you live in Parkdale! You're gonna turn them into Prawny Hoes and Crackheads!

[Parkdale]

there's going to be a bit of crazy bidding war to host friendlies. and not all european teams schedule their friendlies to accomodate MLS dates



sure, the big internationals aren't going to change to accommodate us, but if they are booking a North American tour, and know that they can play 3 friendlies over two weeks, and there will be other big clubs coming though.... it might make it look more appealing for them.

as for bidding wars, it wouldn't apply if the internationals did tours. Real Madrid is playing here, and in DC within a few days - that could help keep the costs down for each team.

[brad]

If MLS is trying to grow the league by bringing in the fans of international clubs (like the River fans from yesterday), it has to be during a good time of the year. We'd go to BMO in a blizzard to watch the team, but not everyone would.If the heavy handed way security treated a bunch of well behaved River fans in my section is any indication, I'd say mission failed. I doubt that did much to win them over as new fans. They'll never be back if River aren't playing.

[__wowza]

2. Balance out the scheduling
-It's absolutely ridiculous that a team has to play 4 straight league games away from home (Houston), or get 5 straight at home. (NY) This league is all about parity, but where is the parity with unbalanced schedule?
-The schedule should be set each team plays other teams once every half season. No teams should play more than 2 straight league games at home or away. (ok. maybe 3 pending on extenuating circumstances) No more home and away series, which nobody in MLS seems to take seriously. Home and away series might work for NHL or other NA leagues, but not for MLS since the teams don't play against each other enough.

i may be wrong, but i believe this is done due to the distance teams have to travel and is used as a cost cutting measure. imagine having TFC go to face the NYRB at home, then head down to crew stadium, then head to chicago, then head home, then head to LA.

[Parkdale]

i may be wrong, but i believe this is done due to the distance teams have to travel and is used as a cost cutting measure. imagine having TFC go to face the NYRB at home, then head down to crew stadium, then head to chicago, then head home, then head to LA.


it's MLSE. they can afford it.

besides, MLS rules say 'no chartered planes (aka private jets) so they aren't paying that much for travel.

[Yohan]

i may be wrong, but i believe this is done due to the distance teams have to travel and is used as a cost cutting measure. imagine having TFC go to face the NYRB at home, then head down to crew stadium, then head to chicago, then head home, then head to LA.
yeah, but if there is a week between games, it's not like TFC is going to stay away from BMO for like 3 weeks

looking at schedule

08/22 - Saturday at Chivas USA10:30 p.m.
08/29 - Saturday at Seattle Sounders FC4:00 p.m.
September 09/05 - Saturday at Colorado Rapids10:00 p.m.
Saturday Colorado Rapids3:30 p.m.
09/19 - Saturday at Los Angeles Galaxy10:30 p.m.
09/26 - Saturday at Chicago Fire8:30 p.m.

by your logic, it doesn't make sense to have a home game away at Colorado, then to come back to Toronto for one game, then go to LA. I'm sure the lads don't want to spend too much time away from home either

[Blessington]

For me, the main thing lacking in the MLS (and lots of other North American sports) is something the best leagues have: promotion and relegation. Don't expect it will ever happen.

[Parkdale]

For me, the main thing lacking in the MLS (and lots of other North American sports) is something the best leagues have: promotion and relegation. Don't expect it will ever happen.

it just won't ever happen in North America.

if owners know that their team will drop a league (and drop revenue) after a very bad season, they will be less likely to invest.

It's just not something I can see happening here.

[Yohan]

For me, the main thing lacking in the MLS (and lots of other North American sports) is something the best leagues have: promotion and relegation. Don't expect it will ever happen.
i'm not convinced this will be an improvement for a NA league

just because it works in Europe, that doesn't mean it'll work in North America

[CoachGT]

1. Make officiating consistent
2. Improve post game review of officials
3. Make officials accountable for their calls (really bad game as determined by a qualified supervisor = two months or more doing USL level 5)
4. Use foreign officials as mentors during other leagues' off seasons
5. Send our officials to other leagues as observers (fourth officials maybe)
6. Make our officials accountable to MLS, not to FIFA bodies (this one may be a little difficult, but maybe it would help if they worked for the same people who run the league)
7. Everything else in this thread.

[troy1982]

For me, the main thing lacking in the MLS (and lots of other North American sports) is something the best leagues have: promotion and relegation. Don't expect it will ever happen.

The most successful league in the world in the NFL, no promotion/relegation and they have parity. The European league all have massive debts and would have goon into bankruptcy if they were in NA.

[Beach_Red]

it just won't ever happen in North America.

if owners know that their team will drop a league (and drop revenue) after a very bad season, they will be less likely to invest.

It's just not something I can see happening here.

It's not something that's ever going to happen in a league that was created post-TV. The NFL was really the first league created for TV and that's the key to its success.

Or let's say it's never going to happen in any sports market that has so much competition for media exposure and fans.

[Keyman]

Update Marketing Strategy

If Major League Soccer wants to ensure longterm success, then soccer moms and children should no longer be the target audience. Yes, a family friendly environment should be upheld at every match, but families should not comprise the majority of the crowd. I know that many people feel that enticing the large Latin American/European/Asian markets that are scattered across this continent is not a feasible task, because of the snobbery and purist mindset that seems to exist among them, but the league should make a huge effort to alter that mindset and attract these fans to games. I don't even see commendable effort being made by Toronto FC in the various ethnic communities across the city. Huge billboards should go up, posters, everything. If each team used the same approach, I believe we would see a vast improvement in terms of attendance and the respectability of the league.

[Parkdale]

It's not something that's ever going to happen in a league that was created post-TV. The NFL was really the first league created for TV and that's the key to its success.

Or let's say it's never going to happen in any sports market that has so much competition for media exposure and fans.


yeah, exactly.

the only thing that could compare to relegation is when a team leaves a city (Winnipeg Jets) and then the fans adopt the smaller team (Manitoba Moose). Granted this only works if the fans are extremely passionate about the sport and their hometown boys.

It's way to easy to just flip the channel if you're not watching the game live.

[Parkdale]

I don't even see commendable effort being made by Toronto FC in the various ethnic communities across the city.

not totally true.

when the team was first announced and they were trying to get local interest, the club was doing meet and greets in all types of 'ethnic areas'. The were at Cafe Diplimatico in Little Italy, places in Little Portugal, and even on the Danforth too I think.

They had a streetcar totally covered in TFC stuff that looked like a suitcase with stickers from all the areas in Toronto they visited. They has 'little italy' signs, and other groups were represented as well. Hell... they even has a 'Parkdale' sign, which I liked quite a bit.

sure they could blast up some billboards, but I'm not sure if that's the best way to get people on board. Playing against an international team will get the ethnic groups into the stadium (like the Argentinians who came to see RiverPlate last night), and maybe some of them had enough fun that they'd like to come back for more.

[Beach_Red]

yeah, exactly.

the only thing that could compare to relegation is when a team leaves a city (Winnipeg Jets) and then the fans adopt the smaller team (Manitoba Moose). Granted this only works if the fans are extremely passionate about the sport and their hometown boys.

It's way to easy to just flip the channel if you're not watching the game live.


In a way the NFL does have relegation/promotion because not every team plays every other team every year. The standings form the previous year decide the schedule, so teams that finish at the bottom of the standings have a slightly easier schedule than teams that finished higher.

They just don't divide up the standings into a Premiere League and other divisions. And,of course, to maintain some rivalries, some teams do play each other every year.

[Parkdale]

And,of course, to maintain some rivalries, some teams do play each other every year.

I think the NHL does a great job of this now.
I remember that when the 2008/09 season started,
it seemed like ever game was a classic rivalry.
4 or 5 games on that first day, and each one of them
was a longstanding rivalry (like Toronto-MTL, Vancity-Calgary)

[BayernTFC]

Update Marketing Strategy

If Major League Soccer wants to ensure longterm success, then soccer moms and children should no longer be the target audience. Yes, a family friendly environment should be upheld at every match, but families should not comprise the majority of the crowd.
Good point. There should be a family section in each stadium. Surround the family section with sitting sections only which are away from the supporters sections.


While your at it, update the business model. It's time for MLS to decide how they want to make money, and form their league (and rules) around that model. Trying to do all things at once, while the league is in its infancy, means that you do many things poorly. Don't put the cart before the horse. MLS IS NOT the NFL. TV deals will come when a stable and committed audience arrives in significant numbers. In my opinion, the leagues best chance is to leverage a spot in the mid-tier of football. Develop talent that can be sold, and attract fallen talent that can be rehabilitated and sold. Perhaps growth in audience can come from Eastern Europe, Central/South America and Asia if MLS becomes a transitional destination for talented players from these regions before they make the jump to larger squads elsewhere around the world. I get the feeling that some officials within MLS want to move in this direction, but some decisions made by MLS make me question whether they really have a plan. MLS is never going to be the top sports option in NA. Soccer will never be the top sport in the United States and Canada. MLS teams will never be as big as top flight European clubs such as Manchester United. Accept these facts and move on.


This sets up my final point. Teams in the MLS have to do a better job of converting revenue into profit:

I'll summarize the data in chart form:

(numbers are in the millions)


Value Revenue Income
CHI 41 16 -3.1
CHV 24 10 -1.0
CLB 23 6 -4.5
COL 31 11 -2.2
DAL 39 15 0.5
DC 35 13 -3.0
HOU 33 10 -1.8
KC 22 5 -2.9
LA 100 36 4.0
NE 27 10 -1.5
NY 36 10 -4.5
RSL 30 7 -2.1
TOR 44 17 2.1

TOTAL 485 166 -20.0
http://usasoccer.blogspot.com/2008/09/forbes-mls-team-values-revenue.html

[Beach_Red]

MLS teams will never be as big as top flight European clubs such as Manchester United. Accept these facts and move on.




I'm just curious, why is that?

[BayernTFC]

I'm just curious, why is that?
Try starting up a North American football league that will compete with the NFL (it's been done before, by the way). If I had to bet on who will be on top 25+ years into the future, I know which league my money would be on.

Those European teams have been around for a loooooonnnng time. They have a built in following, lots of cash to throw around and support from wealthy interests. Europe is much smaller geographically, so communities are tightly knit and rivalries are intense. Expenses are inherently easier to control. There are fewer sports competing with football for the interest of viewers in Europe. Children in Europe desire to play football first and foremost (like Hockey in Canada for instance).

North American monetary interests are notoriously short-term. Even if you find an owner who is willing to buy into your agenda, nothing you do can force them not to sell the team if the price is right. MLS can't even convince itself to keep the reserve league or a sufficient number of roster spots per team when times get a little tough. No long-term vision is reason enough why MLS will struggle to succeed, let alone compete with the big boys.

[Beach_Red]

It's true, rival football leagues can't compete with the NFL but I remember when the ABA and NBA merged. They were both quite small regional leagues wth no TV exposure. I think soccer could reach the same popularity in North America as basketball.

Will basketball teams in Europe ever be as big as NBA teams? What about European hockey teams, will they ever be as big as NHL teams?

[BayernTFC]

It's true, rival football leagues can't compete with the NFL but I remember when the ABA and NBA merged. They were both quite small regional leagues wth no TV exposure. I think soccer could reach the same popularity in North America as basketball.
The NFL and AFL merged at one point too. This is a different era with tons of competition. I would not be surprised if soccer surpassed basketball in terms of popularity in both the U.S. and Canada one day. There are plenty of children who play organized soccer at a younger age in the U.S. and Canada. I just think that it would be better for the league if MLS brass remain realistic and accept the limitations of this league. They can knock themselves out spending money taking a chance that someday they hit the jackpot and become the best soccer league in the World, or they can try to adopt a realistic business model and actually earn money for all who have invested. The people who want to watch the best football now, know where to go to get it. Does MLS have enough time and money to change that? If MLS even came close, the big names across the pond would just poach talent at a faster rate then they do now.


Will basketball teams in Europe ever be as big as NBA teams? What about European hockey teams, will they ever be as big as NHL teams?I highly doubt it unless the NHL and NBA expand there. The NHL and NBA routinely poach Europe's best talent. Canadians and Americans tend to travel in the other direction only when there are no other options, to reserrect their careers, or when insane amounts of money are offered. In the countries where Hockey and Basketball do well, they aren't more popular than Football. Hockey isn't even as popular as Football in Russia.

[Shakes McQueen]

Bayern, you're ignoring that those leagues in your examples would be/would have been competing against existing leagues in North America.

I don't think MLS could compete against the EPL in the next 10-15 years, but beyond that, all bets are off.

All it would take is for viewership to increase enough, for stations like NBC/FOX/ESPN to start paying for primetime television deals. Then suddenly team revenues and exposure shoot up, and spending with it.

It would take in immense investment in the soccer infrastructure in north America, and a continuing shift in the public acceptance of the sport. But we are slowly seeing that now. I don't think you can definitively state that MLS will never rival the top leagues in the world. There is too much wealth and potential viewership in North America, to say that.

- Scott

[TFC USA]

I think "Better American commentators" needs to come into play too.

Seriously if it weren't for the CBC and internet streams for away TFC games I'd be in hell.

[Brooker]

5. Increase quality of the refs.
- Really no need to explain this one.

i believe they are doing an outstanding job. we have the best referees in the world. no doubt.

*ducks*

[TFC USA]

You ducked right into my fist. :D

[Cristiano14]

For me, the main thing lacking in the MLS (and lots of other North American sports) is something the best leagues have: promotion and relegation. Don't expect it will ever happen.

promotion and relegation in NA is all about $$
If you got enough of it you will be promoted
If you don't you'll eventually be relegated

this is how USL clubs get to MLS for the most part
and how USL-1 clubs fall to USL-2 and vice versa

It will likely stay this way, assuming the top league's owners (MLS) have the most money then they would never want to implement real promotion/relegation because they would only risk losing money.
SO it's very unlikely that we will ever see true promotion/relegation in NA.

[Shakes McQueen]

My big ones:

- Better referees. Time to start shelling out money on the part of both CONCACAF and MLS, to get better officiating.

- Yearly salary cap adjustment. Both the NHL and NBA adjust their cap based on league revenues. MLS should be no different. The fact that the cap in this league is still only slightly more than $2 million, is ridiculous.

- Lose the single-entity. I firmly believe this is the biggest objection stopping some players from coming here. It's an arcane financial and ownership structure. Transition to the NHL's system of private ownership, with profit sharing - AT LEAST.

- Bring back the reserve division. Maybe even see if clubs can get their B-teams playing in the USL, under a new division. I understand that there isn't likely to be promotion/relegation between MLS/USL1 any time soon. But the two leagues need to be somewhat unified on some level, and not working against one another.

- Scott

[Beach_Red]

promotion and relegation in NA is all about $$
If you got enough of it you will be promoted
If you don't you'll eventually be relegated



Where is not about $$$?

Is there a team at the top of any league in the world that isn't also at the top of the salaries?

[Cristiano14]

^its purely money, in europe or w.e, you get promoted or relegate due to how u play on the field (which is of course indirectly affected by money).

if u were a league 2 team with alot of money, you'd still have to play your way up to the premier league ( the money would help but it wouldn;t get you straight there)

But if you were a PDL team with a ton of money, you could play like shit but still be able to buy your way into the MLS.

[BayernTFC]

I don't think MLS could compete against the EPL in the next 10-15 years, but beyond that, all bets are off.
I wouldn't put my money on it. I'll take the other side of that bet if you want to.


All it would take is for viewership to increase enough, for stations like NBC/FOX/ESPN to start paying for primetime television deals. Then suddenly team revenues and exposure shoot up, and spending with it.Is that all? Sounds really easy. Why hasn't it happened already then? MLS has been around since 1993, no?


It would take in immense investment in the soccer infrastructure in north America, and a continuing shift in the public acceptance of the sport. But we are slowly seeing that now.
Isn't MLS attendance down this year? How do you know that all the hard work won't just become a fad? You can't expect large investments to continue without the profits to justify the expenditures. Restructure the league to profit from player development and rehabilitation. Everyone will be forced to focus on the "soccer infrastructure" in order to earn enough money. Viewership and overall quality will grow from there.


I don't think you can definitively state that MLS will never rival the top leagues in the world. There is too much wealth and potential viewership in North America, to say that.
History is on my side. The wealth and potential viewership in the U.S. hasn't changed over the years, yet soccer has failed to grab hold time and time again. I don't think that soccer will ever be a top sport in the U.S. and gain the type of wide spread affection that it does elsewhere. Anyway, hasn't MLS been down that road before? Is it all about television viewership? Most teams in MLS lose money. The three teams that do make money, don't have a very good profit margin. If they continue to follow the pipe dream, they will go bust. Viewers are fickle and can leave at any time. There are soooooo many options competing for their attention. You also risk losing viewers If you set the bar too high and promise too much. Americans aren't known for their patience, so you'd be wise to keep expectations reasonable. I wouldn't have bothered with MLS if it weren't for TFC. If I were watching TFC because I thought that someday they could compete with Bayern, I'd have bailed already. I accept TFC for what it is and I believe that we have improved greatly, which pleases me. I am much more interested in how Stefan Frei, Sam Cronin and Nana Attakora are doing than whether Mo can lure JDG to play somewhere he obviously wouldn't consider coming to without the huge wad of cash.

Big teams and big leagues need to attract the best talent. Football talent outside of NA is attached to teams at a young age. You don't get access to them without team consent and transfer money, if the player is willing to make the move in the first place. Don't expect these players to wait for a draft or live within a cap. Tell me how MLS is going to compete for these guys? Why would any of them want to go to KC? MLS has a hard time attracting the best American talent to stay already. Do you really think all those European Hockey players would leave home for the NHL if they had a comparable option at home? ;)

[Cristiano14]

I wouldn't put my money on it. I'll take the other side of that bet if you want to.

Is that all? Sounds really easy. Why hasn't it happened already then? MLS has been around since 1993, no?

The top division in English football has been around for over 100 years, MLS has been around for about 16 we've made up alot of ground considering the difference.


Isn't MLS attendance down this year? 1. Seasons not over 2. Economic Troubles 3. Beckham has been away AND attendances have been going up overall recently.
How do you know that all the hard work won't just become a fad? You can't expect large investments to continue without the profits to justify the expenditures. Restructure the league to profit from player development and rehabilitation. Everyone will be forced to focus on the "soccer infrastructure" in order to earn enough money. Viewership and overall quality will grow from there.


History is on my side. The wealth and potential viewership in the U.S. hasn't changed over the years, yet soccer has failed to grab hold time and time again. History is on your side eh? the Cosmos frequently sold out 70,000 seat Giant stadium. Poor management in the league only lead to its destruction.
I don't think that soccer will ever be a top sport in the U.S. and gain the type of wide spread affection that it does elsewhere. It may not be a TOP sport, but it has the potential to be high, around NHL or NBA levels. Anyway, hasn't MLS been down that road before? Is it all about television viewership? Most teams in MLS lose money. The three teams that do make money, don't have a very good profit margin. If they continue to follow the pipe dream, they will go bust.
At this point the teams and the leauge are going after exposure and selling the product, once thats in place they can go for maximising profits. That isn't a good indicator of how the league is doing since most teams are now hitting the black and a few are at green.
Viewers are fickle and can leave at any time. We have watched alot of piss poor soccer from TFC, yet your still posting on this board. There are soooooo many options competing for their attention. How many top soccer league are there in america? 1- MLS. If you want to watch US soccer at the highest level there arent other options. You can't compare American Idol and watching MLS so your argument doesn't work. You also risk losing viewers If you set the bar too high and promise too much.MLS isn't promising anything Americans aren't known for their patience, so you'd be wise to keep expectations reasonable. I wouldn't have bothered with MLS if it weren't for TFC. THAT ARGUMENT GOES FOR ANYONE FROM A CITY WITH AN MLS TEAM!!! they come to support their hometown team and soon they are supporting the team and in effect the league just like you. SO IT WORKs! If I were watching TFC because I thought that someday they could compete with Bayern, I'd have bailed already. How is that not possible? sure the history or ingrained fan support may never be there, but in X number of years once cap is lifted we could have a BETTER team and even a better stadium etc. etc. I accept TFC for what it is and I believe that we have improved greatly, which pleases me.If it improved alot in 3 years, whats stopping it and the league from improving exponentially in coming years? I am much more interested in how Stefan Frei, Sam Cronin and Nana Attakora are doing than whether Mo can lure JDG to play somewhere he obviously wouldn't consider coming to without the huge wad of cash. JDG woud not want to come home?

Big teams and big leagues need to attract the best talent. Football talent outside of NA is attached to teams at a young age. yeah and since all MLS teams now have to have an academy our continents best talent will be attached to clubs at a young age. You don't get access to them without team consent and transfer money, if the player is willing to make the move in the first place. We would have our own young home grown talent, and we could buy older european players. Don't expect these players to wait for a draft or live within a cap.!- We would be making our own young talent. 2- if they were tranfered there is no need for the draft, thats only for college players 3- The cap would be raised in the future. Tell me how MLS is going to compete for these guys? Won't need or want to Why would any of them want to go to KC? MLS has a hard time attracting the best American talent to stay already Once the league gets better, that won't b as much of a problem. Do you really think all those European Hockey players would leave home for the NHL if they had a comparable option at home? WTF that goes against everything you said lol ;)

Any way man, didn't mean to cut up all your arguments but your just being wayyyyyy too cynical:picard:

[Shakes McQueen]

I wouldn't put my money on it. I'll take the other side of that bet if you want to.

It isn't a bet. In fact, I specifically said all bets are off. :D


Is that all? Sounds really easy. Why hasn't it happened already then? MLS has been around since 1993, no?

While your condescending sarcasm is nice, it's unwarranted. No, it hasn't happened yet, despite the league being a whopping 16 years old. It hasn't happened yet, because the standard of play just isn't comparable yet.

And yet the standard of play is slowly improving. The quality of players in the league is slowly improving. Even the quality of ownership and support, of new teams entering the league, is better (Seattle and Toronto, for example).

So the fact that it hasn't happened yet, means to you it will never happen? Clubs like Man Utd. have been around for decades upon decades. Our entire league is sweet sixteen.


Isn't MLS attendance down this year? How do you know that all the hard work won't just become a fad? You can't expect large investments to continue without the profits to justify the expenditures. Restructure the league to profit from player development and rehabilitation. Everyone will be forced to focus on the "soccer infrastructure" in order to earn enough money. Viewership and overall quality will grow from there.

And how do you know it IS a fad? I'm not the one making definitive statements that this league will NEVER be as good as leagues like the EPL - you are.

Yeah, MLS attendance is down a little on average this year (shockingly, while Beckham wasn't playing in MLS). What does that prove? Did you expect the growth of MLS to be a straight 90 degree angle line going up? As long as the business trends upwards in the long run, I could care less. And it has, so far.


Big teams and big leagues need to attract the best talent. Football talent outside of NA is attached to teams at a young age. You don't get access to them without team consent and transfer money, if the player is willing to make the move in the first place.

Which is why, as I said, it will require a greater investment in home grown talent.


Don't expect these players to wait for a draft or live within a cap. Tell me how MLS is going to compete for these guys? Why would any of them want to go to KC?

I don't expect everyone to hang around during this leagues formative years. In fact, I expect MLS to bleed all kinds of talented players. And I expect all kinds of other players to stick around, gradually improving the quality of play in the league, like they have so far.

And who are we to say that MLS will have a cap forever? Or a draft?

Or that one day, the cap won't become high enough that homegrown superstars can be paid wages consistent with superstars overseas anyway?


MLS has a hard time attracting the best American talent to stay already. Do you really think all those European Hockey players would leave home for the NHL if they had a comparable option at home? ;)

And yet you see the beginnings of a new European hockey league in the KHL, that actually is doing exactly what MLS is doing in it's formative years - peeling off aging NHL players, players who weren't quite good enough for the NHL, and occasionally splashing big money to sign younger NHL players.

I'm not claiming that MLS will ever become the EPL's equivalent. What I am doing, is taking issue with your definitive statement that MLS needs to accept that it will never be comparable to the world's biggest leagues.

- Scott

[BayernTFC]

Any way man, didn't mean to cut up all your arguments but your just being wayyyyyy too cynical:picard:

The top division in English football has been around for over 100 years, MLS has been around for about 16 we've made up alot of ground considering the difference.
That's my point. The EPL has been around for a long, long time and will continue to be strong in the future. There are teams in solid leagues which have been around forever in excellent Football markets which can't compete with Manchester United et al. MLS is playing catch up in a market that has quit on soccer again and again(see NASL) and has a plethora of options.


History is on your side eh? the Cosmos frequently sold out 70,000 seat Giant stadium. Poor management in the league only lead to its destruction.
And where are these Cosmos that you speak about now? This is exactly my point. It's all about withstanding the test of time. It doesn't take much to derail a promising effort. MLS already has bad management and MLS teams have folded before.


It may not be a TOP sport, but it has the potential to be high, around NHL or NBA levels.
Please read my posts. I agreed with this point already. The Tippeligaen in Norwayand the SAS Ligaen in Denmark are tops in their respective countries. It doesn't mean that teams in those leagues compare to Manchester United, etc.

That isn't a good indicator of how the league is doing since most teams are now hitting the black and a few are at green.[/quote]
If you lose money, you are in the red. If you make money, you are in the black. All that matters after that are the amounts. You really think that the profitability of the business isn't a good indication of how the league is doing???


We have watched alot of piss poor soccer from TFC, yet your still posting on this board.
I don't watch TFC because I believe that one day they will be the best in the world.


How many top soccer league are there in america? 1- MLS. If you want to watch US soccer at the highest level there arent other options.
I'm not arguing that MLS isn't the best soccer league in the U.S. and Canada. The A-League is the best league in Australia, that doesn't mean that it compares to the EPL.


You can't compare American Idol and watching MLS so your argument doesn't work.
I'm not the one arguing that television viewership is everything. What are the ratings for American Idol? What are the MLS ratings? How much money does AI make? What about MLS? Can you stop viewers from changing the channel from an MLS game to AI if they want to?


they come to support their hometown team and soon they are supporting the team and in effect the league just like you. SO IT WORKs!
Exactly my point. Viewership in the U.S. really drops when certain teams play against each other. Ask the NHL about it. Americans tend to not care when Canadian teams compete for Championships especially. Teams in NA are more spread out geographically, so it's difficult for fans to get into the rivalries the way they do in Europe. How many people actually care whether TFC plays against San Jose or whether that team would happen to be Miami or Pittsburgh?


JDG woud not want to come home?
Would he even consider the proposal if it weren't for the amount of money being offered?


yeah and since all MLS teams now have to have an academy our continents best talent will be attached to clubs at a young age.
Mandating that all teams require academies is a good start, but it is far from guaranteeing that all the best talent will attend said academies.

We would have our own young home grown talent, and we could buy older european players.
Perhaps I convinced you somewhere along the way?

WTF that goes against everything you said lol
Nope. You should read more carefully. I am arguing that the best chance for the league to succeed is to develop home grown talent. In order to compete with the top tier teams, you will have to pay the big bucks and draw talent away from other areas. If MLS tries to adopt this model, than I have no doubt that the league will go bust.

Any way man, didn't mean to cut up all your arguments but your just being wayyyyyy too cynical
Well, you are entitled to your opinion. I don't watch TFC because I want to see the best Football available. I go elsewhere for that.

[Inswingingwingman]

Add London FC as a TFC junior team. the London (Ontario) FC are playing the Chicago Fire's junior team in the playoffs this week.

Development and a place for guys like Ibby to play when he needs games.

[Cristiano14]

^ Bayern good points.
MLS will likely never equal EPL, but it at least has the potential to be big in the NA market.

[Beach_Red]

I am arguing that the best chance for the league to succeed is to develop home grown talent. In order to compete with the top tier teams, you will have to pay the big bucks and draw talent away from other areas. If MLS tries to adopt this model, than I have no doubt that the league will go bust.



Yes, this is true. It's really the key to MLS and the biggest lessn earned from NASL. But it will likely be done through the American system of school-based sports and not academies. It's their system and they like it. High schools and the NCAA are a development pool for the professional teams to draw from, rather than each pro team developing its own. Better or worse, I have no idea, it's just different.

But if the USA start to really take soccer seriously, starting at the high school level, there's no reason they can't turn out some of the best players in the world, like they do in many other sports. Someday a domestic USA league, drawing from the entire USA, could be a top level league.

[BayernTFC]

While your condescending sarcasm is nice, it's unwarranted. No, it hasn't happened yet, despite the league being a whopping 16 years old. It hasn't happened yet, because the standard of play just isn't comparable yet.
Soccer in the U.S. and Canada has a much longer history than just 16 years. There have been several leagues in existence. If MLS tries to be "the best" in the world, I believe it will fail too. I don't believe that soccer in the U.S. and Canada is capable of reaching the heights that it does elsewhere. That doesn't mean that I don't think that soccer can't do well here or that it won't reach a certain level of competence.


And yet the standard of play is slowly improving. The quality of players in the league is slowly improving. Even the quality of ownership and support, of new teams entering the league, is better (Seattle and Toronto, for example).
Yes, I did mention that I have observed a marked improvement in the quality of play from TFC. I think that it would be best for MLS to concentrate on attaining the level of play of mid-tier football. There is quality football played in mid-tier. I don't believe that it will ever get any higher than that in the U.S. and Canada. TFC and Seattle are new franchises to MLS and need time before definitive judgments can be made in regards to success.


So the fact that it hasn't happened yet, means to you it will never happen? Clubs like Man Utd. have been around for decades upon decades. Our entire league is sweet sixteen.
If you want to believe that it's possible, then great. If that belief encourages you to pay attention to MLS, then good. I hope that you aren't disappointed if it doesn't happen and then give up on the league to watch the best football elsewhere. I think that it is counterproductive for the development of the league and detrimental to the survival of MLS to try and structure the league and its rules for the aim of competing with the best in the world.


And how do you know it IS a fad? I'm not the one making definitive statements that this league will NEVER be as good as leagues like the EPL - you are.
PLease read my statements carefully. I didn't say that it is a fad. I posed the question that how do you know that it won't become a fad?

How do you know that all the hard work won't just become a fad?
It has happened before you know. Even teams within MLS have become a fad in its short period of existence.


Yeah, MLS attendance is down a little on average this year (shockingly, while Beckham wasn't playing in MLS). What does that prove? Did you expect the growth of MLS to be a straight 90 degree angle line going up? As long as the business trends upwards in the long run, I could care less. And it has, so far.
Ask yourself what measures the league has taken to defend against these difficult times? Then ask yourself how long teams can survive on little or no profits if Americans continue to pinch pennies? Are these occurrences likely to help MLS catch up to levels of leagues elsewhere in the long run? It is a marathon, not a sprint. I don't expect anything. I watch TFC as long as it is entertaining. Life will go on for me with or without MLS.



Which is why, as I said, it will require a greater investment in home grown talent.
We are in complete agreement here.



I don't expect everyone to hang around during this leagues formative years. In fact, I expect MLS to bleed all kinds of talented players. And I expect all kinds of other players to stick around, gradually improving the quality of play in the league, like they have so far.
I agree with what has been said here. Where we differ is at what level we think MLS is capable of finally reaching. I don't believe that MLS will ever be the main destination for the best talent. That isn't to say that it won't attract some and play a good quality of football.


And who are we to say that MLS will have a cap forever? Or a draft?
I didn't say that they would, although, I do think that the should keep the draft as long as it produces useful talent in decent numbers (not everyone will forego college for early development). I don't necessarily think that the cap needs to be removed. The ability for MLS to grow and improve will continue to be significantly hindered as long as the cap is so low.


Or that one day, the cap won't become high enough that homegrown superstars can be paid wages consistent with superstars overseas anyway?
I think that this is the direction that MLS needs to go in.



And yet you see the beginnings of a new European hockey league in the KHL, that actually is doing exactly what MLS is doing in it's formative years - peeling off aging NHL players, players who weren't quite good enough for the NHL, and occasionally splashing big money to sign younger NHL players.
While it's too early to pass judgement on the KHL imho, I think that it is a good example. I don't think that the KHL will ever compete directly with the NHL. If it ever came close, the NHL would likely expand to Europe to protect itself. MLS has the potential to be so much more than the KHL if it decides to change its business model to focus on profits through the sale of players.



I'm not claiming that MLS will ever become the EPL's equivalent. What I am doing, is taking issue with your definitive statement that MLS needs to accept that it will never be comparable to the world's biggest leagues.
I believe that if the MLS continues to fashion its operations with the expectation that it will one day be able to compete with top flight football in Europe, then it will remain an unprofitable business venture. I believe that MLS is squandering great opportunities with every day they don't let go of that notion. I don't think that soccer in the United States and Canada will ever be capable of the level of popularity that it enjoys in Europe. That isn't to say that improvements won't be made and the product can't reach a quality level of competitveness. The U.S. and Canada already produce competitive players.