PDA

View Full Version : Ljungberg: Seattle = Eredivisie quality



Yohan
07-20-2009, 11:44 PM
Is he bullshitting? Or MLS gotten that good?

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/114670/Freddie-s-so-glad-to-have-gone-west


Ljungberg, 32, makes no extravagant claims but insists that his new side are comfortably the equivalent in ability of “say, Ajax, or any other club in the Dutch First Division”.

NF-FC
07-20-2009, 11:48 PM
he's bullshitting

rocker
07-20-2009, 11:49 PM
i have never watched a game from that league, so I wouldn't know.

Super
07-20-2009, 11:51 PM
If we got rid of the salary cap, then yes, the MLS would be close in strength and similar in make-up to the Dutch league. But now, no.

Yohan
07-20-2009, 11:55 PM
If we got rid of the salary cap, then yes, the MLS would be close in strength and similar in make-up to the Dutch league. But now, no.
he said equivalent in ability. not composition

Dirk Diggler
07-21-2009, 12:03 AM
To Ajax? No way ... probably low to mid level Eredivisie quality.

Whoop
07-21-2009, 12:04 AM
Maybe the bottom of the Eredivisie.

The top Dutch teams can beat all the MLS teams.

However, the MLS has the POTENTIAL to surpass a lot of the smaller European leagues.

Cashcleaner
07-21-2009, 12:15 AM
Maybe the bottom of the Eredivisie.

The top Dutch teams can beat all the MLS teams.

However, the MLS has the POTENTIAL to surpass a lot of the smaller European leagues.

QFT.

Actually, making a comparison to Eredivisie isn't that much of a stretch in my opinion. I think Houston and Seattle with their current squads could compete quite well in the Netherlands. Maybe a few tweaks here or there if any.

UltraSuperMegaMo
07-21-2009, 12:28 AM
The exact same comparison that Rudd Gullit made after his time with the Galaxy. It might be a little heavy handed but not by miles. The MLS is on its way up in terms of quality of play whereas the Dutch league has kind of plateaued.

nascarguy
07-21-2009, 12:30 AM
Eerste Divisie Division 1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eerste_Divisie

but not Eredivisie

Damien
07-21-2009, 12:41 AM
If you're playing in the MLS you're not gonna talk it down and say "oh we're like division 2 England"... you're obviously gonna pump it up. So what he says is really irrelevant.

CretanBull
07-21-2009, 12:42 AM
Alot of players come over here and make favourable comparisons. Personally, I think it speak's to a player's ego rather than it being an accurate representation of the league.

kodiakTFC
07-21-2009, 12:49 AM
Have you guys ever watched the Eredivisie? Outside of Ajax and PSV those teams are pretty mediocre. This mainly has to due with the fact they don't bring in much attendance league wide so the other teams suffer. On the odd years other teams like AZ (like last year) , Heerenveen, Groningen and Utrecht are good but not always. People really like to shit on the MLS but the reality is, the league ain't half that bad when you leave out the top 10 leagues in the world.

CretanBull
07-21-2009, 12:56 AM
The Dutch league has dropped off a bit in recent years, but its still significantly better than the MLS.

Cambridge_Red
07-21-2009, 03:56 AM
Hes fucking dreaming.

devioustrevor
07-21-2009, 05:26 AM
Maybe the Belgian Jupiler League (or whatever the hell it's called), but not the Eredivisie.

torontocelt
07-21-2009, 06:20 AM
Almost all players under go PR training on what to and what not to say to journalists now. I think it would be fair to say that the bigger names like Freddie and Beckam will most definitely be instructed to big up the MLS to people outside North America. If Freddie believes what he is saying is true then great but personally I reckon he is talking out of his arse.

ensco
07-21-2009, 06:57 AM
It's not a debate. Ljungberg is being a salesman.

We already know where MLS players fit in over in Europe. It's in Scandinavia: first divisions if you're good (Perkins, Tracy), second divisions if you're average (Freeman, Stama, Lapira).

keem-o-sabi
07-21-2009, 07:00 AM
talking to my dutch friends who actually played in the dutch 1st division and now coach in the states, they say MLS is the same level as theirs, except for the traditional 'big 3' there. Granted that's only 3 people, but still they seem to think so.

The league is actually decent, I don't know why anytime it's compared to a euro league everyone is out to say it sucks. For the amount of $$$ the players get paid, we have the best league in the world haha. I don't think that all of these north americans would be going to scandanavia if we paid better here.

dcdcdc
07-21-2009, 07:10 AM
all you have to look at is the players we can sign.. injured, old 3rd division players.. with the obvious exceptions of course

mmmikey
07-21-2009, 07:58 AM
This is equal parts rise in quality of the mls and the decline of the Dutch league. Even psv and Ajax are in decline, although those two clubs are still above us.

Just cause a league was crap at one point or strong at one point it doesn't mean it will stay that way forever.

Carefree
07-21-2009, 08:05 AM
I have never watched the Dutch league so I can't comment on that, but Saturday I was sitting at Scallywags watching the TFC vs Houston game on one TV and a game from the Russian Premier League on another (CSKA Moscow and I don't remember the other team). The calibre of the MLS game was slightly better.

Admittedly this was the first Russian game I had ever watched, so it may not be a representative sample, but I think MLS teams could compete against some of these lower Euro leagues. I know we like to shit on our own league sometimes, but we're really not that bad on the world stage if you exclude the top four or five leagues.

CretanBull
07-21-2009, 08:23 AM
While the Dutch league has fallen off, its not because something isn't right in Holland - its because their best players are being bought up by world-class clubs. Next month we'll see Sneijder, Robben, Van Der Vaart, Huntelaar and Drenthe playing for Real Madrid - all recent(ish) products of the Dutch league. The MLS - obviously - isn't producing that level of player.

mmmikey
07-21-2009, 09:09 AM
Holland definitely has a better youth system and domestic talent. But that's
beside the point that the actual league play is quite similar in quality. Otherwise brazil would be in the top 4 as well. :)

keem-o-sabi
07-21-2009, 09:13 AM
all you have to look at is the players we can sign.. injured, old 3rd division players.. with the obvious exceptions of course

That's all we can afford. In Holland, the minimum is 400k for foreign players. That is our highest salary we can pay.

maninb
07-21-2009, 09:14 AM
Don't tell Kingpin this! LOL! He thinks MLS is the equivalent to European 3rd divisions!

TorontoBlades
07-21-2009, 09:17 AM
Have you guys ever watched the Eredivisie? Outside of Ajax and PSV those teams are pretty mediocre. This mainly has to due with the fact they don't bring in much attendance league wide so the other teams suffer. On the odd years other teams like AZ (like last year) , Heerenveen, Groningen and Utrecht are good but not always. People really like to shit on the MLS but the reality is, the league ain't half that bad when you leave out the top 10 leagues in the world.

exactly. Footballers from Europe also tend to be more honest in their assessments of football clubs. I don't think his comparison is at all that far fetched - it's actually a good league to compare to, instead of our constant comparisons of where we stand in in the UK leagues.

Another good comparison, outside the top 3 or 4 clubs, is Greece IMO.

TorontoBlades
07-21-2009, 09:21 AM
While the Dutch league has fallen off, its not because something isn't right in Holland - its because their best players are being bought up by world-class clubs. Next month we'll see Sneijder, Robben, Van Der Vaart, Huntelaar and Drenthe playing for Real Madrid - all recent(ish) products of the Dutch league. The MLS - obviously - isn't producing that level of player.

That's a different story all together though. That's history, and time and refinement - things we wont be able to replicate for decades. Ajax was a top club in the world consistantly only a few years back because of their developement and before the sport was so globalized that major clubs could snap these players up much easier.

But today, if MLS & Dutch clubs played in the same table, I beleive the standings would be mixed...although I would probably think a Dutch club would be at the top.

felipe
07-21-2009, 12:20 PM
I thought the dutch league was better than that, but like many others I don't think I've ever sat down and watched a match from there;

But I will say that I found watching the league one playoffs on setanta this spring a much better standard than MLS, and the league 2 playoffs slightly better - or perhaps equivalent to MLS.

CretanBull
07-21-2009, 03:31 PM
That's a different story all together though. That's history, and time and refinement - things we wont be able to replicate for decades. Ajax was a top club in the world consistantly only a few years back because of their developement and before the sport was so globalized that major clubs could snap these players up much easier.

But today, if MLS & Dutch clubs played in the same table, I beleive the standings would be mixed...although I would probably think a Dutch club would be at the top.

It's not a different issue at all. The Dutch league has taken a hit in its quality because its top players - players that they used to be able to hang on to - are in increasing numbers going to some of the top teams in Europe. The talent drain faced by the Dutch is guys like Van Der Vaart & Huntelaar going to Real Madrid. That's not an issue that the MLS has to face, because the quality isn't here in the first place. The MLS talent drain guys like Hunter Freeman going to Denmark, or the top NCAA players going to FL1 teams in England.

If there was a mixed table, if there was anything less than 5 or 6 Dutch teams at the top it would be a massive shock. I'd bet against there being more than 1 MLS team in the top 10.

CretanBull
07-21-2009, 03:48 PM
I thought the dutch league was better than that, but like many others I don't think I've ever sat down and watched a match from there;

Historically, the Dutch league is a very good one but its been in decline for the last few years. I think it will bounce back, although I don't think it will ever be as good as it once was (the major issue being bigger leagues buying up Dutch talent)



But I will say that I found watching the league one playoffs on setanta this spring a much better standard than MLS, and the league 2 playoffs slightly better - or perhaps equivalent to MLS.

I didn't watch the FL2 playoffs, but there's no question in my mind that the top part of the FL1 table (ie the promotion & play-off teams) would regularly beat any MLS team. Mike Grella, who would have went 1st OV in last year's draft if he hadn't made it clear that he wanted to go to Europe, is 4th or 5th on the Leeds striker depth chart. He's played in about 15 mins per game in about 10 games. I can't imagine a situation in the MLS where the 1st OV pick couldn't get more playing time than that. At the same time, Leeds are turning down £6 miilion offers for Fabian Delph. Is there a single player in the MLS worth more than $10 million?

spezz44
07-21-2009, 04:00 PM
Historically, the Dutch league is a very good one but its been in decline for the last few years. I think it will bounce back, although I don't think it will ever be as good as it once was (the major issue being bigger leagues buying up Dutch talent)



I didn't watch the FL2 playoffs, but there's no question in my mind that the top part of the FL1 table (ie the promotion & play-off teams) would regularly beat any MLS team. Mike Grella, who would have went 1st OV in last year's draft if he hadn't made it clear that he wanted to go to Europe, is 4th or 5th on the Leeds striker depth chart. He's played in about 15 mins per game in about 10 games. I can't imagine a situation in the MLS where the 1st OV pick couldn't get more playing time than that. At the same time, Leeds are turning down £6 miilion offers for Fabian Delph. Is there a single player in the MLS worth more than $10 million?


Beckham

Yohan
07-21-2009, 04:04 PM
I didn't watch the FL2 playoffs, but there's no question in my mind that the top part of the FL1 table (ie the promotion & play-off teams) would regularly beat any MLS team. Mike Grella, who would have went 1st OV in last year's draft if he hadn't made it clear that he wanted to go to Europe, is 4th or 5th on the Leeds striker depth chart. He's played in about 15 mins per game in about 10 games. I can't imagine a situation in the MLS where the 1st OV pick couldn't get more playing time than that. At the same time, Leeds are turning down £6 miilion offers for Fabian Delph. Is there a single player in the MLS worth more than $10 million?
Leeds isn't really a typical League 1 team, with more spending power than most League 1 teams

CretanBull
07-21-2009, 04:25 PM
Beckham

Nope....his transfer fee was set at £4.5 miilion.

CretanBull
07-21-2009, 04:39 PM
Leeds isn't really a typical League 1 team, with more spending power than most League 1 teams

Spending power? We're broke!

And we finished 4th so there are 3 better teams (4 if you want to include the team that knocked us out of the play-offs).

Yohan
07-21-2009, 04:43 PM
Spending power? We're broke!

And we finished 4th so there are 3 better teams (4 if you want to include the team that knocked us out of the play-offs).
curious to know what is the payroll of Leeds compared to other L1 teams

CretanBull
07-21-2009, 04:54 PM
curious to know what is the payroll of Leeds compared to other L1 teams

In the top 10, but I doubt the top 5. The 3 teams relagated from the Championship would all have higher payrolls, then Leeds would be in the group of teams behind them - maybe 6th or 7th? At the moment, we're set to lose our top player (Jermaine Beckford) at the end of the season because we can't afford to pay him (and he's not making outrageous wage demands).

Yohan
07-21-2009, 04:55 PM
that's fucked up

twistedchinaman
07-21-2009, 05:12 PM
Have you guys ever watched the Eredivisie? Outside of Ajax and PSV those teams are pretty mediocre. This mainly has to due with the fact they don't bring in much attendance league wide so the other teams suffer. On the odd years other teams like AZ (like last year) , Heerenveen, Groningen and Utrecht are good but not always. People really like to shit on the MLS but the reality is, the league ain't half that bad when you leave out the top 10 leagues in the world.

You could add Feyenoord, but that's as far as I would say.

profit89
07-21-2009, 05:27 PM
Not yet.

Dunkers
07-21-2009, 05:29 PM
Nope....his transfer fee was set at £4.5 miilion.

Did Altitore go for 9 or 14 mil?

Yohan
07-21-2009, 05:32 PM
10 million dollars

jloome
07-21-2009, 06:13 PM
Here's the key to all of these "league comparison" threads:

1) Some leagues have three or four 'ringer' teams that are guaranteed to be richer and better than most other places.

2) The remainder of the leagues are basically the same.

There's not a lot of difference between Greece, The U.S., Turkey, Sweden etc once you get past the "top four". Or, in some countries, "the top 2."

MLS has a cap, so there's no "top four." Other than that, all of these leagues operate on similar salaries (players aren't making millions), with talent that goes all the way from "future star" to "overlooked" to "good journeyman" to "what the fuck is Andy Welsh doing on the wing, exactly?"

On an average day, Randers could beat D.C. who could beat Brondby, who could beat GIS, who could beat OFI Crete, who could beat Genclerbirligi, who could beat Young Boys Berne, who could beat Seattle.

Yes, there are some secondary leagues in Spain and England that might whomp us regularly, but that would have more to do with roster depth, money and travel distance than day-to-day squad comparisons.

There's a pantheon of the top, say, two dozen clubs. Then there's everyone else.

EAsoccer
07-23-2009, 09:45 PM
It's not a debate. Ljungberg is being a salesman.

We already know where MLS players fit in over in Europe. It's in Scandinavia: first divisions if you're good (Perkins, Tracy), second divisions if you're average (Freeman, Stama, Lapira).

I dont think that's very accurate or fair comparison. It's well known that for a individual player to go over to a club in Europe they have to be significantly better than the players already over there and that goes for players from any foreign countries or that command a transfer fee.

Just like foreigners coming to MLS .. average foreigners dont come to MLS or at least dont stay very long.

EAsoccer
07-23-2009, 09:49 PM
That's a different story all together though. That's history, and time and refinement - things we wont be able to replicate for decades. Ajax was a top club in the world consistantly only a few years back because of their developement and before the sport was so globalized that major clubs could snap these players up much easier.

But today, if MLS & Dutch clubs played in the same table, I beleive the standings would be mixed...although I would probably think a Dutch club would be at the top.
I doubt that. I would bet money that Ajax,PSV,Feyenoord,AZ will be the top 4 if any given order. The next couple of teams would largely be Dutch but with some MLS sides mixed in. The bottom would be New York Red Bulls and San Jose Earthquakes.

Bottom line comparing MLS to other leagues is comparing apples to oranges.

MLS is a league with parity where players are spread out to create a balanced league... the rules dont allow us to have teams with a significant advantage over others, the strength of each club fluctuates moreso than it does in any other league in the world.

The only way this comparison even makes sense is by comparing MLS to another league with the same rules as Major League Soccer, but there are none! My verdict: make MLS single table even/balanced schedule and then we can start comparing.