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View Full Version : Alabama To Make Mls/usl Expansion Bid?



nascarguy
07-15-2009, 01:48 PM
BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA TO MAKE MLS/USL EXPANSION BID?
(Plans for a stadium, labeled as the multi-purpose facility in this picture, that could seen over 50,000, but would be adjustable for just about any size event including soccer)

There have been debates all over the sporting nation as to who the next expansion cities in MLS might be. Montreal? St. Louis? NYC2? Perhaps one in the south, like Atlanta or Miami? Well, there's a possibility that "one in the south" could mean the largest city in Alabama. Check out these reports from last night
http://www.dynamoplanet.com/profiles/blogs/birmingham-alabama-to-make

Yohan
07-15-2009, 01:51 PM
interesting place for an expansion

i like it that there is no other major pro sports to compete for fanbase, however, just how many footy fans are there in Alabama... looks like a gridiron football country to me

JamboAl
07-15-2009, 01:54 PM
Been to Birmingham a few times and although it is not a bad city, it's probably less exciting than Columbus. And you're right Yohan, it's more into pointy ball and NASCAR.

Bars92
07-15-2009, 01:58 PM
Probably the last place I would expect a soccer team. They like the Crimson Tide, Auburn and Nascar.

manic.street.preacher
07-15-2009, 02:00 PM
hmm interesting, but i don't think it will fly there ... Des Moines anyone? :D

Kevvv
07-15-2009, 02:07 PM
I've read the bid, it's toothless

Kevvv
07-15-2009, 02:11 PM
The south is under-represented though, but I'd assume Georgia or Miami/Florida before B'ham. Wonder if Memphis could support a team.

kodiakTFC
07-15-2009, 02:13 PM
hmm interesting, but i don't think it will fly there ... Des Moines anyone? :D

I remember that rumor and it is not that bad when you consider Des Moines leads the PDL with an average attendance of 3000. That beats every USL-2 team and 2 usl-1 teams (tied with like 5).

Super
07-15-2009, 02:31 PM
Meh. They're welcome to make a bid. Doubt anything will come of it though.

Yohan
07-15-2009, 02:36 PM
I remember that rumor and it is not that bad when you consider Des Moines leads the PDL with an average attendance of 3000. That beats every USL-2 team and 2 usl-1 teams (tied with like 5).
I'm in more favour of gradual moving up of leagues for teams.

And MLS should keep pillaging USL for teams with good markets :D

I dunno why, but Florida needs a lot of work to be a viable soccer market. For some reason Florida is like armpit of a lot of sports franchises

Southsider
07-15-2009, 02:42 PM
I dunno why, but Florida needs a lot of work to be a viable soccer market. For some reason Florida is like armpit of a lot of sports franchises


It kind of seems like a sunny state problem, L.A. (Raiders, Kings) and San Diego (Padres, and the Chargers to some extent) seem to have a lot of problems filling up the stadium when they aren't in contention.

NF-FC
07-15-2009, 02:55 PM
50,000 seats is a weird number. It's too small for college football or NFL, and it's way too big for MLS. Maybe they should build build a 20,000 seater for MLS/USL, one of those independent pro football leagues, and High School sports.

Oldtimer
07-15-2009, 03:30 PM
The south is under-represented though, but I'd assume Georgia or Miami/Florida before B'ham. Wonder if Memphis could support a team.

By the same reasoning, the NHL expanded into the south. It didn't work to well. Neither will MLS.

Carefree
07-15-2009, 03:45 PM
This bolsters the case for MLS to merge with USL and instigate a promotion/relegation system based not only on the team's merit on the field but on its economic viability. I doubt a market like Birmingham could ever support an MLS franchise, but with the right marketing I'm sure they could draw 1,000 to 1,500 per game, which would be respectable for a USL2 side. And 20 years down the line, who knows?

IMO for the game to develop in North America there need to be local teams not just in the big cities but in all the mid-sized ones like Birmingham all over Canada and the US. But the important thing is that all the different levels (leagues) have to be part of one system, so the fans can keep an eye on the big picture. Because the prevailing attitude in North America is to only follow the best leagues in whatever sport, fans of the game either
a) ignore the local leagues because their home town is not represented in MLS (which they perceive as "the best" league in the country)
b) support the MLS team that is geographically closest to them, even though it may be in a different state/province and the USL team in their home town flies under the radar.

Now as far as the relegation/promotion issue, I know that because of the realities of the sports business on this continent this would not be a very popular idea, but I think a compromise could be reached, where let's say one team got relegated from MLS at the end of every season based on the final standings, with others given the opportunity to move down on a voluntary basis if they find they are unable to turn a profit on an MLS team. In the lower levels there could be more movement, say three or four teams moving between USL1 and USL2, and voluntary movement in and out of the semi-pro PDL.

From the fans' point of view what all this means is that their local team actually matters, regardless of what division they're in. I think this would go a long way toward reducing the prejudice people have against the lower leagues.

Obviously this would take decades to implement successfully, and sports business people here aren't known for their long-term vision…

Yohan
07-15-2009, 03:50 PM
Now as far as the relegation/promotion issue, I know that because of the realities of the sports business on this continent this would not be a very popular idea, but I think a compromise could be reached, where let's say one team got relegated from MLS at the end of every season based on the final standings, with others given the opportunity to move down on a voluntary basis if they find they are unable to turn a profit on an MLS team. In the lower levels there could be more movement, say three or four teams moving between USL1 and USL2, and voluntary movement in and out of the semi-pro PDL.

From the fans' point of view what all this means is that their local team actually matters, regardless of what division they're in. I think this would go a long way toward reducing the prejudice people have against the lower leagues.

Obviously this would take decades to implement successfully, and sports business people here aren't known for their long-term vision…
problem is, not enough grassroots support from fanbase to willingly support a lower division team in most major cities

teams in MLS would fold crazy, if there was relegation

Beach_Red
07-15-2009, 04:11 PM
By the same reasoning, the NHL expanded into the south. It didn't work to well. Neither will MLS.


The biggest difference, though, is that there are a lot of kids playing soccer in the south now.

Beach_Red
07-15-2009, 04:14 PM
IMO for the game to develop in North America there need to be local teams not just in the big cities but in all the mid-sized ones like Birmingham all over Canada and the US.

This was true for the development of baseball, but for football and basketball local interest was developed at the high school and college level.

Once in a while we might have to take some of American culture into consideration. I doubt a European-style structure imposed on the USA will be any more successful than NFL Europe was in Europe.

flatpicker
07-15-2009, 04:29 PM
problem is, not enough grassroots support from fanbase to willingly support a lower division team in most major cities

teams in MLS would fold crazy, if there was relegation


I think they could make it more difficult for top league teams to get relegated.
Having a single playoff game between the top second division team and the bottom first division team (in the first div. teams home ground) would improve the chances of no relegation taking place.

They could also put in financial advantages where, if a team just got relegated from the top division, that team still gets to spend up to 1st div. salary cap level for their first season in the lower level, while all the other teams have a smaller 2nd div. salary cap. That would improve chances of that team to move back up a year later.


btw... it's always dangerous to bring up relegation with me around!
- I love hypothesizing about this stuff!

JonO
07-15-2009, 04:37 PM
^^ He's got a 12-step program....

flatpicker
07-15-2009, 04:44 PM
^ I think my program has more like 16-20 steps in it!

Carefree
07-15-2009, 06:00 PM
Once in a while we might have to take some of American culture into consideration. I doubt a European-style structure imposed on the USA will be any more successful than NFL Europe was in Europe.

I'm not talking about imposing anything. But it should be made available and allowed to develop. That's exactly what MLS is not doing. I like that you bring up NFL Europe, because that's a perfect example of an American institution imposing a pre-packaged top-level product to a sports fan base where that particular sport isn't rooted in the culture. We all know how that ended up.

Face it, in this country and in the US we have to build the interest in soccer from the ground up. I think the various leagues should look at the Montreal Impact as an example of a team with a long-term plan. Ten years ago they were attracting just a couple of thousand people to their games, but through good marketing, community involvement and recruiting local players (who speak French) their popularity has increased to the point where they have now built their own 13,000-seat stadium (which they sell out regularly) and are serious contenders for inclusion in MLS.

In Toronto we went a different route, but I think it's a fluke (or, rather, a testament to the unexpected fervor of the support groups) that it was so successful here. In most markets I don't think our approach would work.

Yohan
07-15-2009, 06:03 PM
In Toronto we went a different route, but I think it's a fluke (or, rather, a testament to the unexpected fervor of the support groups) that it was so successful here. In most markets I don't think our approach would work.
I think it's safe to say there is NO framework to use to approach marketing in a city

each city has way too many quirks

Beach_Red
07-15-2009, 06:14 PM
I'm not talking about imposing anything. But it should be made available and allowed to develop. That's exactly what MLS is not doing. I like that you bring up NFL Europe, because that's a perfect example of an American institution imposing a pre-packaged top-level product to a sports fan base where that particular sport isn't rooted in the culture. We all know how that ended up.

Face it, in this country and in the US we have to build the interest in soccer from the ground up. I think the various leagues should look at the Montreal Impact as an example of a team with a long-term plan. Ten years ago they were attracting just a couple of thousand people to their games, but through good marketing, community involvement and recruiting local players (who speak French) their popularity has increased to the point where they have now built their own 13,000-seat stadium (which they sell out regularly) and are serious contenders for inclusion in MLS.

In Toronto we went a different route, but I think it's a fluke (or, rather, a testament to the unexpected fervor of the support groups) that it was so successful here. In most markets I don't think our approach would work.

well, no one's stopping that kind of development, the USL does exists.

In fact, the sports market is quite different in the USA and Canada. In Canada there are very rarely big crowds for anything but the top league. Almost no tickets are sold for university sports and pretty much no one goes to high school sports. Even OHL-WHL-QMJHL games don't get nearly the attendence they deserve.

But the in the US hundreds of colleges get huge attendence for many sports. As people point out, it's not unusual for a high school football team in Texas to get 20,000 people out to a game (and really, it's not just Texas and not just football).

In the US that would be the model that soccer should follow. High school and then the NCAA. as that popularity grows, so will the professional game.

Canada is different. Maybe the Montreal model would work in other parts of Canada. But many models from Quebec don't - take the movie business for example.

Brooker
07-15-2009, 06:19 PM
interesting place for an expansion

i like it that there is no other major pro sports to compete for fanbase, however, just how many footy fans are there in Alabama... looks like a gridiron football country to me

don't they go ape-shit for college sports and nascar down there?

i do not like this idea at all. i bet you anything they'd do something ridiculous & call it Birmingham City FC. lol.

Redcoe15
07-15-2009, 06:55 PM
No chance in hell.

Although, if they did manage to get a team, would they set up some sort of alliance with a certain English league side and call themselves Birmingham City?

Cashcleaner
07-16-2009, 12:13 PM
I don't see soccer really taking off in the south. Florida and Texas are the only exceptions I can think of, and even then, we know what happened in Florida.

C.Ronaldo
07-16-2009, 01:04 PM
"population of the city was 229,800 according to the 2007 estimate"

this is a joke right?

Brampton is bigger than this place

Yohan
07-16-2009, 02:04 PM
"population of the city was 229,800 according to the 2007 estimate"

this is a joke right?

Brampton is bigger than this place
the main city limits. entire metropolitan area is over 1 mil

kitchener-TFC
07-16-2009, 02:19 PM
^^ He's got a 12-step program....
Hahaha.
I'd like to see a relegation/promotion system set up in North America, but there are still teams that are struggling right now. Imagine if these struggling clubs were to get relegated....they'd die entirely.

flatpicker
07-16-2009, 02:42 PM
In fact, the sports market is quite different in the USA and Canada. In Canada there are very rarely big crowds for anything but the top league. Almost no tickets are sold for university sports and pretty much no one goes to high school sports.

But the in the US hundreds of colleges get huge attendence for many sports. As people point out, it's not unusual for a high school football team in Texas to get 20,000 people out to a game (and really, it's not just Texas and not just football).



regarding college sport in the U.S.....
I think their scholarship program makes school sport much more enticing to fans.
These are heavily scouted young players fighting their way into the big leagues.
In Canada, we foolishly ignore the importance of sport and neglect to give young athletes sports scholarships.
Thus, many Canadians who excel in their sport, end up playing in the States.
Canada simply does not have the same level of attraction for the fans.

Beach_Red
07-16-2009, 02:51 PM
regarding college sport in the U.S.....
I think their scholarship program makes school sport much more enticing to fans.
These are heavily scouted young players fighting their way into the big leagues.
In Canada, we foolishly ignore the importance of sport and neglect to give young athletes sports scholarships.
Thus, many Canadians who excel in their sport, end up playing in the States.
Canada simply does not have the same level of attraction for the fans.


Or, we think school is for education.

The idea of scholarships is great, the reality is so different from that. March madness, May sadness. It's really not a good system to copy.

C.Ronaldo
07-16-2009, 02:57 PM
the main city limits. entire metropolitan area is over 1 mil

so

go outside Brampton o includes Milton/g town/orange ville and you have over a million as well.

no one could seriously think this is viable, especially when the cap grows.

C.Ronaldo
07-16-2009, 03:00 PM
Or, we think school is for education.

The idea of scholarships is great, the reality is so different from that. March madness, May sadness. It's really not a good system to copy.

agreed,

school and sport should not mix.


I dont go to university while praciting law/medicine. I couldnt even get a full time job volunteering at a firm/hospital during undergrad.
they are essentially working full time and learning full time, one has to give in more often than not.

Yohan
07-16-2009, 03:01 PM
so

go outside Brampton o includes Milton/g town/orange ville and you have over a million as well.

no one could seriously think this is viable, especially when the cap grows.
depends on market situation, why not?

there are professional teams that survive in most oddest places. Sask Riders. Edmonton. etc

Ottawa has a metropolitan pop of 800,000 or something, and it put together an MLS bid. Or at least willing to.

If aim is low enough, say 12k-13k per game, and has a good marketing strategy, plus a market receptive to an idea of an MLS, I don't see why not give it a try

flatpicker
07-16-2009, 03:42 PM
school and sport should not mix.



I disagree.

These athletes on scholarships are still required to maintain a certain GPA.

I suppose it would be difficult to play sport and get your medical degree...
But folks in that position would have to decide what is more important to them.

There are many kids who might not get the chance to go to college if it weren't for sports scholarships.

But where I see it having a lasting positive effect is in the quality of professional sport in the country.

I believe that if Canada had sport scholarships,
we would have athletes performing at a higher level in professional and international competition.

There is a lot to be said for developing national pride!

How much happier would a nation be if we had more sporting hero's and more reasons to cheer?

- also, don't forget all the millions of dollars that get pumped into U.S. university academic programs as a direct result of money made from sport. That would buy a lot more medical equipment and research grants etc.

That's just me, looking at the big picture.



man, this thread flew waaaaaayyyy off course!!!

Beach_Red
07-16-2009, 07:43 PM
That's just me, looking at the big picture.



man, this thread flew waaaaaayyyy off course!!!


Ha, yeah, well that's threads, right?

I just think if you're going to look at "the big picture," you really have to look at it all. Does the scholarship system really work? There's so much money involvd in maintaining it (for the school and TV networks and so on) that there is almost never a critical analysis. I did find this:

Less than a dozen of the 65 men's teams in the 2005 tournament would have even qualified to play for the national championship if a modest 50-percent graduation rate was required for their players, according to a study of the past six years' graduation rates by the University of Central Florida's Institute for Diversity and Ethics in Sport.

So, for most schools, less than half of the people given scholarships graduate. If the scholarship system could actually work the way people say it does, then it would be okay. But does it?

Kaz
07-16-2009, 08:04 PM
depends on market situation, why not?

there are professional teams that survive in most oddest places. Sask Riders. Edmonton. etc

Ottawa has a metropolitan pop of 800,000 or something, and it put together an MLS bid. Or at least willing to.

If aim is low enough, say 12k-13k per game, and has a good marketing strategy, plus a market receptive to an idea of an MLS, I don't see why not give it a try

Because that is USL-1 ideals. (and FC Dallas)

an MLS team should be shooting for 16-20k a game.



The Market situation in the states is much different. 10 times the population means you have many large schools who developed sports programs before they were big money, and they developed organically in regional pockets and expanded.

Canada is a massive nation with a low population spread over the whole of the nation. Initially Canadian Universities were limited to Toronto and Montreal for sports competition, and they competed against the major American Schools in the early days. But the sheer number of American Schools in the 20s to 50s allowed them to grow into the NCAA system. It just didn't happen in Canada at the same level.

Our sport grew into a series of successful minor league systems, which has worked very well for the major sport Canadian Youth develop professionally into (hockey of course)

So there is no need to Develop a Canadian Uni league system into a sort of Minor league system.

Developing the CSL into a full minor league system like the OHL and WHL and allowing several MLS teams to develop in Canadian markets large enough to take them. (Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto specificly Halifax being another) Woudl work here just as well.

I really would love to see the USL-1 turn into a feeder league to the MLS for both franchises and players. MLS teams should be picked from existing successful USL markets, if only to prevent the Dallas sham