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MarkinPortugal
07-11-2009, 08:01 AM
As pre-season training and roster preparations are dominating the news here in Portugal, where I live, I took a couple minutes to review this claim that MLS rosters are paper thin.

The gold standard for rosters in Europe is two players per position for the main squad. That means 20 outfield players and then possibly 3 keepers; so 23 players. At first glance the 24 squad limit in MLS doesn't seem very shocking. Ofcoarse in MLS there is the chance to replace a player with a season long injury which in european soccer (atleast in portugal) is not an option.

In Portugal, for practice purposes, when a player is injured a member of the youth squads is usually promoted to full the void that would be left if the squad has drills that are specific to a certain number of players. So here TFC is ok because there is the youth academy that could probably fulfill this role.

In england I know there is an entire "B" league where teams field their unused players and possibly meaning that there is a second squad beyond the 23 players in the first squad. (Not sure about the specifics here, just pointing out the fact that there is a B league in england).There used to be a B league in Portugal but it was abolished many years ago.

Are there more games in MLS making the same roster numbers overworked? In Portugal there is the league, the cup, the league cup and for top teams europe (Champions league, eufa cup (europa league), or the intertoto cup). There is no shortage of competitions. During the year a successful team which makes a competitive run in the cup, league cup and europe (obviously they have to play all league games regardless of performance) you will play 2 games a week guaranteed all season.

So what is the problem? I believe there are 2.

1) tactical advantage to having a short squad - The salary cap puts teams in a position to face a decision of having a short squad to invest more money into less players. Trying to get more quality into the starters at the cost of not having a full squad. TFC right now has 21 players which is 2 below the gold standard I referred to. (Although they have 2 goalies probably because they know if one is injured they are allowed to get someone else).

Realistically though all teams around the world have a budget. All teams except maybe the worlds biggest would have to think about whether they spend big bucks on key players or spread the money over depth.

2) MLS doesn't schedule around FIFA fixture dates - This clearly handcuffs teams because the number of available players starts to dip ridiculously below the 23 when there are international call-ups.

The roster rules seem fine to me. Nothing beyond what is normal in international soccer. If they could just schedule around FIFA it'd be golden.

Yohan
07-11-2009, 08:25 AM
As pre-season training and roster preparations are dominating the news here in Portugal, where I live, I took a couple minutes to review this claim that MLS rosters are paper thin.

The gold standard for rosters in Europe is two players per position for the main squad. That means 20 outfield players and then possibly 3 keepers; so 23 players. At first glance the 24 squad limit in MLS doesn't seem very shocking. Ofcoarse in MLS there is the chance to replace a player with a season long injury which in european soccer (atleast in portugal) is not an option.
20 senior squad players, plus 4 on developmental (kind of like youth player) so it's not really 24 man squad. 4 developmental roster spots are kinda like prospects who aren't quite ready for first team football (and you'll be hard to find youth players good enough for first team on dev spot)


In Portugal, for practice purposes, when a player is injured a member of the youth squads is usually promoted to full the void that would be left if the squad has drills that are specific to a certain number of players. So here TFC is ok because there is the youth academy that could probably fulfill this role.1. TFC youth squad isn't up to the level where they can send someone up to fill in

2. Restrictions on signing youth players to first team by MLS rules makes it hard to call up youth academy players.


Are there more games in MLS making the same roster numbers overworked? In Portugal there is the league, the cup, the league cup and for top teams europe (Champions league, eufa cup (europa league), or the intertoto cup). There is no shortage of competitions. During the year a successful team which makes a competitive run in the cup, league cup and europe (obviously they have to play all league games regardless of performance) you will play 2 games a week guaranteed all season. again, it's really 20 senior players playing in all the games. take into account injuries, suspensions, international call ups, plus having to release a player before a new one can be signed means sometimes a squad has hard time actually putting forward a 18 man squad on a game day


So what is the problem? I believe there are 2.

1) tactical advantage to having a short squad - The salary cap puts teams in a position to face a decision of having a short squad to invest more money into less players. Trying to get more quality into the starters at the cost of not having a full squad. TFC right now has 21 players which is 2 below the gold standard I referred to. (Although they have 2 goalies probably because they know if one is injured they are allowed to get someone else).

Realistically though all teams around the world have a budget. All teams except maybe the worlds biggest would have to think about whether they spend big bucks on key players or spread the money over depth.
theoretically, this makes sense. however, too few senior spots meaning teams are running into depth problem

I think increase of senior roster spots to 24, plus 6 for dev spots would be ideal for MLS without sacrificing quality.


2) MLS doesn't schedule around FIFA fixture dates - This clearly handcuffs teams because the number of available players starts to dip ridiculously below the 23 when there are international call-ups.

The roster rules seem fine to me. Nothing beyond what is normal in international soccer. If they could just schedule around FIFA it'd be golden.Agreed. There has to be better way of getting around int dates.

Few problems

1. Major int tourneys often run 3-4 weeks. MLS season being run from Mar to Oct, plus playoffs in Nov means there WILL always be conflicts with int dates. MLS is NOT going to take a month break just because of an int tourney.

2. Int dates can be partially resolved by MLS taking a break for major tourney qualifiers, but instead schedule more weekday matches.
However, because MLS is still a gate receipt driven league, and majority of teams having trouble getting big enough crowd for weekday games means this is not feasible yet.
When MLS gets a big enough TV contract to offset the loss of revenue due to weekday matches, this becomes more possible.

3. MLS does have several byweeks scheduled for each team, with no league games scheduled for the week for that team, so that the teams don't get fatigued by small roster playing too many games.
The league can cut the byweeks in favour of meeting int dates, but this means while rest of the squad gets a break, but guys on int games dont. And most likely it'll be star players on the squad that gets called up

4. Lastly, the league has already started earlier than normal this year, in order to offset some of the int dates.
Unless you want teams to play in blizzard still, I don't think the league can start any further. (and first few games for TFC was so damn cold and miserable weather)

MarkinPortugal
07-11-2009, 09:03 AM
Just checked out who fills our developmental spots and we have Frei, Ibrahim, Gomez and Gala. I see the point about developmental players being prospects and not really first team players for Gomez or Gala, but really Frei is the starting keeper and Ibrahim I think is a solid squad backup.

But perhaps it is true that there should be a minimum of 22 senior spots. That would guarentee the possibility of a full "european size" squad of senior payers.

Yohan
07-11-2009, 09:12 AM
Just checked out who fills our developmental spots and we have Frei, Ibrahim, Gomez and Gala. I see the point about developmental players being prospects and not really first team players for Gomez or Gala, but really Frei is the starting keeper and Ibrahim I think is a solid squad backup.

But perhaps it is true that there should be a minimum of 22 senior spots. That would guarentee the possibility of a full "european size" squad of senior payers.
Frei and Ibrahim are Generation Adidas players and they are kinda like, special youth players that MLS picks out and their salaries dont count against the cap.

Plus Frei is what, 23? so he's not even young. Youth player is like 20 or younger IMO

point is, dont expect to find many none GA players on youth developmental contracts to be able to play first team.

curious to know whether superdraft players go straight to Senior Roster spot, or youth spots. Seems a bit muddled

prizby
07-11-2009, 09:24 AM
first off, as far as i know, english, german, italian, spanish teams have 25 roster spots, 25 senior roster spots.

Look at Real Madrid last year, they had injuries to Ruud and Diarra and they replaced them (with Huntelaar and other Diarra), so it was easy to change that (easy to do without a salary cap)

the other problem is the game falling on a international duty day...last year we lost i think 9 players 1 time because of this, and still the MLS wouldn't move the game, any European league that has 2 or more players missing due to international duty (and have a scheduled game) will move that game!

Yohan
07-11-2009, 09:26 AM
the other problem is the game falling on a international duty day...last year we lost i think 9 players 1 time because of this, and still the MLS wouldn't move the game, any European league that has 2 or more players missing due to international duty (and have a scheduled game) will move that game!
I think the league kinda wised up after this fiasco

at least, we hope anyways

didn't someone's game got moved this year due to int call ups coinciding with league game?

rocker
07-11-2009, 10:14 AM
the other thing with rosters is many MLS teams will keep one senior spot open, and the cap space, in the early season so they can fill it later on. So if they want the teams to have 20 senior players, they probably need to actually have 21 senior spots or else teams are scared to fill it to the max.

S_D
07-11-2009, 11:27 AM
1. TFC youth squad isn't up to the level where they can send someone up to fill in

2. Restrictions on signing youth players to first team by MLS rules makes it hard to call up youth academy players.

add to that CIS and NCAA rules. If any of the academy players were called into the MLS they would be ineligible to play for the college/university of their choice and in NCAA's case miss out on potential lucrative scholarships. By playing them where they are they keep their amateur status. The Professor would be able to fill you in on all of the rules.

Edit: there is a loophole somewhere though as Rick Titus was able to play for a game and still keep his amateur status.

Cashcleaner
07-11-2009, 12:31 PM
I don't believe a 24-man roster is the biggest problem, here. I think the real issue lies with the fact that we don't have a developmental squad anymore. I understand getting rid of the dev. roster was a strictly cost-cutting move by the league, but I think it's an action that could bite us in the ass down the road as the number of games increase.

Blizzard
07-11-2009, 01:12 PM
add to that CIS and NCAA rules. If any of the academy players were called into the MLS they would be ineligible to play for the college/university of their choice and in NCAA's case miss out on potential lucrative scholarships. By playing them where they are they keep their amateur status. The Professor would be able to fill you in on all of the rules.

Edit: there is a loophole somewhere though as Rick Titus was able to play for a game and still keep his amateur status.

I believe he signed a one game amateur status contract. He didn't get paid.

BayernTFC
07-11-2009, 02:16 PM
I don't believe a 24-man roster is the biggest problem, here. I think the real issue lies with the fact that we don't have a developmental squad anymore. I understand getting rid of the dev. roster was a strictly cost-cutting move by the league, but I think it's an action that could bite us in the ass down the road as the number of games increase.
Your comments are bang-on Cashcleaner. The dissolution of the reserve league and reduction of developmental spots is a short-term financial solution that will have a long-term negative impact on MLS. The overall quality of the league will be improved through the proper development of players and not by plugging holes with high-risk signings of aging talent from overseas. There is an excellent article pertaining to this issue here:

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/columns/story?id=607112&cc=5901


Of all the news to come out of MLS during the offseason, the biggest story went largely ignored -- the dissolution of the reserve league. Yes, while all eyes were focused on Columbus capping one of the most fantastic finishes in league history, the demise of the reserve league is perhaps the most damaging news to hit MLS in a long time.
In an effort to tighten budgets in the midst of a recession, an economic drop-off that could be a severe damper to this still-fringe sport, the league has decided to expand the senior roster slots to between 18 and 20 players. The number of developmental players has been more than halved, from 10 down to four. In his address announcing the changes, commissioner Don Garber said the savings will be applied by teams to improving their rosters and their academies. Truth is, the reserve teams are already doing that.
The competitive advantage gained by players from playing real games -- even if the number of fans showing up to watch games in the reserve league can be counted on one hand -- can't be understated. Keeping players sharp, putting them in games that mean something and giving them a chance to replicate actual game conditions under the watchful eye of coaches and management is worth the benefit. Look no further than New York's John Wolyniec.
And you have MLS, which is too busy jumping over dollars to pick up pennies, to thank for that.

Cashcleaner
07-11-2009, 02:24 PM
^ Good article. Unfortunately, I agree with the writer's complete assessment.

Yohan
07-11-2009, 02:28 PM
Bringing back the reserve league has to be one of things to be done by Garber to improve the quality.

And even better, let the teams use their youth academy players to fill out some of the empty positions on reserve teams on game days. How many games did TFC had to use guest players for reserve games?

Give promising youth academy players more exposure and experience. Plus a chance for coaching staff to get a better look at their academic players.
And since they are not playing for first team, it's not going to damage the integrity of parity.

UltraSuperMegaMo
07-11-2009, 02:35 PM
I agree that having a league for reserves + academy players to play in would be a great idea - failing that why not just have an academy league?

Yohan
07-11-2009, 02:42 PM
I agree that having a league for reserves + academy players to play in would be a great idea - failing that why not just have an academy league?
if the league is not going to have a reserve league, you'd think they'd shell out for an academy league?

academies are being paid for by the teams IIRC. why would the league pay for something to do with academies?

UltraSuperMegaMo
07-11-2009, 02:48 PM
The league as been clear that their academy setup and development system are works in progress. There’s no reason to think that they’re won’t some changes in the near future.

Basically what they need is some sort of bridge between the academy team and the first team - a professional reserve squad being the ideal situation.

felipe
07-11-2009, 08:27 PM
I think a good solution might be:

1) significantly up the cap - but focus on eliminating salary discrepancies, rather than signing more higher end players
2)own several more players - more like 30 than 24
3) loan the excess/development players (outside of the top 16-20 per team) to USL teams - with the option to recall


This way all players are all getting into quality games - at no added expense outside of their salary

If they are 'prospects; loan them to USL2 - guys that can step in and do a job - USL1...if we had this option we'd still have rights on several good cdns we've had to dismiss over the last 3 years

Cashcleaner
07-11-2009, 09:42 PM
I agree that having a league for reserves + academy players to play in would be a great idea - failing that why not just have an academy league?

Or make it one and the same. Maybe allow academy players to play reserve games? There's all sorts of ways we could go about this.

Yohan
07-11-2009, 10:39 PM
Or make it one and the same. Maybe allow academy players to play reserve games? There's all sorts of ways we could go about this.
I suggested this already :p

funny thing

apparently NY can't sign one of their top prospects Duka from their U20 team because he enrolled at Rutgers for college, and NY doesn't own his rights.

he now has to go through MLS draft in order to be signed by a team (but still can play for NY U20 team lol!)

BayernTFC
07-12-2009, 12:02 AM
And even better, let the teams use their youth academy players to fill out some of the empty positions on reserve teams on game days.
Yes, I think that this would be a very good idea. What better way to develop talent and help them bridge the jump at the same time.

Cashcleaner
07-12-2009, 12:32 AM
I suggested this already :p

funny thing

apparently NY can't sign one of their top prospects Duka from their U20 team because he enrolled at Rutgers for college, and NY doesn't own his rights.

he now has to go through MLS draft in order to be signed by a team (but still can play for NY U20 team lol!)

That's crazy. Can play with the youth team, but not the senior team.

I hope Garber hasn't turned his back on the dev. roster for good. I have a feeling we'll see it come back, just maybe not in the next two or three years. Perhaps the plan is to get the next round of expansion over and done with before tackling some internal issues.

Yohan
07-12-2009, 12:35 AM
That's crazy. Can play with the youth team, but not the senior team.

I hope Garber hasn't turned his back on the dev. roster for good. I have a feeling we'll see it come back, just maybe not in the next two or three years. Perhaps the plan is to get the next round of expansion over and done with before tackling some internal issues.
i'd just settle for a consistent, firm set of rules, that doesn't change every year, leaving GMs scrambling to meet the new rules

then slowly change until a good set of rules that benefits the league as whole is created