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marquis
07-06-2009, 08:11 PM
I know it's been discussed several times, but I think we need to look at it from a different perspective. Instead of comparing MLS to Premiership or La Liga and share a good laugh, we should look at lower levels national leagues that actually have a decent quality; I think it's unfair to compare MLS with Championship or Serie B, simply because MLS is the top league in North America.

Here are my rankings, I would place MLS on the 3rd level. Leagues in the third level often produce UEFA Cup winners, but are not competitive in Champions League; In my opinion, Houston, DC teams of past years could compete for UEFA CUP.

Top level:
Spain
Italy
England

Second Level
Germany
France
Portugal

Third level (examples)
Holland
Greece
Turkey
Best of Eastern Europe (Russia, Ukraine, Serbia, Czech Rep., Romania, etc)
Belgium
MLS

Fourth Level (examples)
Ireland
Norway
Denmark
Sweden
Other Easter European (Bulgaria, Hungary, etc)
Austria
Baltic Countries

Fifth Level (examples)
Albania
Armenia
Moldova
Luxembourg
etc.

fdasilva
07-06-2009, 08:17 PM
MLS teams could compete in the UEFA cup, but they would have to start in the 1st round, and probably won't get any farther than the group stage or the previous elimination round.

Therefore, I do think that the third level is pretty accurate for MLS, but they wouldn't be at the top of the third, not by a long shot.

Shakes McQueen
07-06-2009, 08:20 PM
You would place MLS clubs on par with leagues that have teams like Ajax, PSV, Olympiacos, Panathinaikos, Galatasaray, Zenit St. Petersburg, CSKA Moscow, and so on?

I wouldn't. I would place good MLS clubs on par with the bottom half of the Coca-Cola Championship table, and the rest maybe on par with League One.

- Scott

H Bomb
07-06-2009, 08:24 PM
My problem with that rankings is that it doesnt take into account the many leagues in European countries. The Championship is better than MLS. Serie B and ..the second division of spanish football probably are too. How bout Germany's second div?

Shakes McQueen
07-06-2009, 08:31 PM
My problem with that rankings is that it doesnt take into account the many leagues in European countries. The Championship is better than MLS. Serie B and ..the second division of spanish football probably are too. How bout Germany's second div?

I think this is probably under-selling MLS - there are a few teams in the CCC, that I think a good MLS club could probably beat on a good day. And I think quite a few MLS clubs would likely fit in fine in Serie B. And certainly in Germany's 2nd Div.

Of course, a team like New York would probably get beaten by a League One team in the relegation zone - but you don't think a Chivas, or Houston might be competitive against Charlton, or Norwich?

- Scott

flatpicker
07-06-2009, 08:35 PM
I've always looked at MLS as England League One level.
And perhaps with one or two exceptions that would be lower Championship.


But, in a way, this isn't such a bad thing.
Look at it this way:
MLS may be on par with League One right now... but League One will always be League One.
At least MLS has a chance to grow into a higher level of football.
With the right adjustments from the league, and more revenue... MLS could very realistically grow into Championship level play.

Perhaps it could even do slightly better than that if all the stars and moons aligned just right.
But that would take probably another 10-15 years.

Sport can really take off in a country(s) if the right pieces are in place.
Look at China and Yao Ming.
Football was way bigger than basketball until Ming came along... then BOOM! Basketball is huge there.
All it took was that one superstar to suddenly switch peoples focus.

I'm really rambling on here...
My point is, you never know what may occur...
MLS is at level 3 right now... but you never know where it might go.

BC101
07-06-2009, 08:37 PM
I've always looked at MLS as England League One level.
And perhaps with one or two exceptions that would be lower Championship.


But, in a way, this isn't such a bad thing.
Look at it this way:
MLS may be on par with League One right now... but League One will always be League One.
At least MLS has a chance to grow into a higher level of football.
With the right adjustments from the league, and more revenue... MLS could very realistically grow into Championship level play.

Perhaps it could even do slightly better than that if all the stars and moons aligned just right.
But that would take probably another 10-15 years.

Sport can really take off in a country(s) if the right pieces are in place.
Look at China and Yao Ming.
Football was way bigger than basketball until Ming came along.
All it took was that one superstar to suddenly switch peoples focus.

I'm really rambling on here...
My point is, you never know what may occur...
MLS is at level 3 right now... but you never know where it might go.

Nah it wasn't LOL... sorry not to undermine you but it really wasn't... They loved Basketball before him and will love it WELL after him. Just a side note. Footy is still bigger BTW but horse racing is still king.

flatpicker
07-06-2009, 08:41 PM
^ well, I'm no China expert... that's for sure!

I recall seeing on CBC just a day ago where they said just that.
But maybe CBC didn't research their story so well.

But I would at least think it reached a much higher level once Ming came on the scene, did it not???


Anyway... my example may have been lousy,
My point is, crazy and unexpected things happen that can quickly alter the state of things.
MLS may not be at a high level now, but the seed is there for much bigger things if the right elements fall into place.

James17930
07-06-2009, 08:41 PM
Not trying to be a dick, but this really matter? Really? Why do we have to compare it all the time? Why can't MLS just be MLS and be done with it?

Besides, in order to do such a comparison, you'd have to make way too many generalizations and it'd be impossible to come up with a succinct answer anyway. Because remember, as close as MLS is up and down the table, there's still a pretty big difference between Houston and NYRB. Who's to say where the top teams in MLS rank?

By that same token, are some of the lower teams in the Prem, or the Bundesliga, or Spain, or France, really better than DC United or Houston? I think it would be hard to make that argument.

So -- let's not worry about it. Let's just enjoy TFC and the quirkiness of MLS, hope there's a great new CBA next year which propels the league forward even more and if MLS clubs do ever make it to the Club World Cup we can truly get a sense of where they stand competitively on the world stage.

BC101
07-06-2009, 08:42 PM
^ well, I'm no China expert... that's for sure!

But it reached a much higher level once Ming came on the scene, did it not???
nah just made more fans of whatever team it is he plays for... Houston I think. As opposed to all the LA fans that floated around before.

torontocelt
07-06-2009, 08:42 PM
Anything can happen in cup games that is for sure but I do not think that any team in the MLS could compete for the UEFA cup. The MLS from what I have seen would be a fourth level league, the MLS is no where near the standard of some of those countries in the 3rd level. Like I said anything can happen in cup games but I have seen all of the MLS teams now and I have yet to see a current team which I would think could hold there in against many of the top third level teams.

flatpicker
07-06-2009, 08:46 PM
nah just made more fans of whatever team it is he plays for... Houston I think. As opposed to all the LA fans that floated around before.


you can blame CBC for misinforming me...

I don't pay much attention to basketball anyway... so what do I know??!!

:D

marquis
07-06-2009, 08:58 PM
You would place MLS clubs on par with leagues that have teams like Ajax, PSV, Olympiacos, Panathinaikos, Galatasaray, Zenit St. Petersburg, CSKA Moscow, and so on?

I wouldn't. I would place good MLS clubs on par with the bottom half of the Coca-Cola Championship table, and the rest maybe on par with League One.

- Scott
Those teams listed above are pretty average in any 5 year period, so yes, I would put them on par with the likes of Houston or DC (Ajax is an exception).
My intention was actually to compare the average level of play in those leagues with MLS, and not to single out best teams. Do you honestly believe that the overall quality of footbal in Greece, Turkey or Russia is superior to MLS? I don't.

marquis
07-06-2009, 09:01 PM
My problem with that rankings is that it doesnt take into account the many leagues in European countries. The Championship is better than MLS. Serie B and ..the second division of spanish football probably are too. How bout Germany's second div?

I only considered first leagues, as MLS is the top league in NA.

jloome
07-06-2009, 09:15 PM
Not trying to be a dick, but this really matter? Really? Why do we have to compare it all the time? Why can't MLS just be MLS and be done with it?

Besides, in order to do such a comparison, you'd have to make way too many generalizations and it'd be impossible to come up with a succinct answer anyway. Because remember, as close as MLS is up and down the table, there's still a pretty big difference between Houston and NYRB. Who's to say where the top teams in MLS rank?

By that same token, are some of the lower teams in the Prem, or the Bundesliga, or Spain, or France, really better than DC United or Houston? I think it would be hard to make that argument.

So -- let's not worry about it. Let's just enjoy TFC and the quirkiness of MLS, hope there's a great new CBA next year which propels the league forward even more and if MLS clubs do ever make it to the Club World Cup we can truly get a sense of where they stand competitively on the world stage.

Because some things are just worth discussing; the relative reputation of the league, as has been noted numerous times, greatly affects who will play here.

Plus, it becomes relevant when talking about the aforementioned CBA; consider that while MLS doesn't rank in the top 10 of leagues most of the time, it does rank there for attendance. So it's relative reputation can also be considered with respect to whether franchises are spending enough, when weighed against fan support.

Me, I figure the MLS is as disparate as it gets. THe lowest talent end of the league includes guys who might get cut from semi-pro regional leagues in England. The upper end of talent includes guys who could likely compete at a middling Premiership club.

The balance of play?

1 good club versus another good club = upper end of CCC, lower end of prem.

1 good club versus one bad club - middle of ccc all the way down to middle of league one

1 bad club versus one bad club = league two/conference level.

It's that broad.

torontocelt
07-06-2009, 09:18 PM
Those teams listed above are pretty average in any 5 year period, so yes, I would put them on par with the likes of Houston or DC (Ajax is an exception).
My intention was actually to compare the average level of play in those leagues with MLS, and not to single out best teams. Do you honestly believe that the overall quality of footbal in Greece, Turkey or Russia is superior to MLS? I don't.

How much Greek, Turkish and Russian football do you watch? All three of these leagues have some top teams where any team in the world would struggle to come away with a win. The atmospheres in some of the stadiums in these countries coupled with either blistering heat or in the case of Russia severe cold makes these places very difficult to go to. When you look at the scalps that these leagues take on a yearly basis in European competition you cannot help but be impressed. The best MLS teams are not on a par with the best teams in these leagues and they never will be, money will dictate that as well as football just not being as popular here as it is in those other countries.

jloome
07-06-2009, 09:18 PM
Those teams listed above are pretty average in any 5 year period, so yes, I would put them on par with the likes of Houston or DC (Ajax is an exception).
My intention was actually to compare the average level of play in those leagues with MLS, and not to single out best teams. Do you honestly believe that the overall quality of footbal in Greece, Turkey or Russia is superior to MLS? I don't.

Russia's overall quality is likely higher, as they pay susbtantially higher salaries. I lived in greece for a year-and-a-half nad recall it as generally competent pro footie, like league one or swedish league. Similar to MLS is likely the answer; Turkey has several big, rich clubs and a generally much more talented league than MLS.

torontocelt
07-06-2009, 09:21 PM
Ajax, PSV, Olympiacos, Panathinaikos, Galatasaray, Zenit St. Petersburg, CSKA Moscow, and so on?Those teams listed above are pretty average in any 5 year period, so yes, I would put them on par with the likes of Houston or DC (Ajax is an exception).

This is nonsense.

james
07-06-2009, 09:22 PM
First off MLS is currently having a problem competting in Concacaf Champions League let alone UEFA Cup.

Big reason we would have problems competting on a world stage is are low salary Cap. To be compettitive in the future they must spend more money.

Now that said MLS teams could compete in many leagues in Europe such as in Greece or Turkey, or Croatia or Denmark or even likes of maybe Scotland or Portugal...however i dont think MLS teams would ever win any of these leagues tittles currently. Reason being everyone of these leagues have something in common, they all seem to have 2 or 3 clubs who play in big stadiums and pay lots of money, while the rest of the teams in the leagues play in front of like 5,000 fans or lower, using Greece and even Portuagal as examples. Could MLS clubs compete for say 4th or 5th place in these leagues....id say yes. Could MLS teams compete for first place in these leagues against teams like Galatasary or Porto or Olimpiakos....id say no way. Could MLS teams Compete in UEFA with the best teams of all these Euro leagues...id say no. Not while keeping these low salaries!!

H Bomb
07-06-2009, 09:23 PM
I think this is probably under-selling MLS - there are a few teams in the CCC, that I think a good MLS club could probably beat on a good day. And I think quite a few MLS clubs would likely fit in fine in Serie B. And certainly in Germany's 2nd Div.

Of course, a team like New York would probably get beaten by a League One team in the relegation zone - but you don't think a Chivas, or Houston might be competitive against Charlton, or Norwich?

- Scott

Competitive yes...but consistently as good, not at all.


I only considered first leagues, as MLS is the top league in NA.

And this is my point...many countries have second leagues that are better than our first, making those other comparisons difficult

james
07-06-2009, 09:37 PM
i think a better way to determine how could MLS teams compete in Europe is to look at how much money teams spend on players, how much revenue do the teams bring in and how much fans come to the games. All though big pockets doesnt mean you will be a winner, it deffinitly does help.

druid
07-06-2009, 10:52 PM
Ah... no.

Ever had a look at Shakhtar Donetsk's squad? Zenit's or CSKA's? I'd give my left nut for some of their players to be on our squad.

Teams from Holland, Greece, Turkey, Scotland, Russia, and the Ukraine are capable of placing in the group phase of the Champions League and making the round of 16. And most of the league's I've mentioned have done so over the last ten years.

We'd be below the Portugal, Holland, Scotland, Russia, Ukraine, Belgium tier. Probably below Sweden, Denmark, Belgium, Czech Republic.

Possibly around Slovakia, Lithuania, Hungary, Iceland level. Probably about or above Ireland.

EAsoccer
07-06-2009, 11:02 PM
The best way to determine the strength of the MLS compared to other leagues is to take individual teams in those leagues and match their lineups against MLS squads. A lot of people like to look at one off results in friendlies that have no meaning. Matching up player v player at each position is more accurate. Many of the top European leagues MLS is being compared to in this thread have starting XI's that represent their national teams.

4 players from the MLS champions Houston Dynamo represent their countries.

ExiledRed
07-06-2009, 11:27 PM
The best MLS squads, can't maintain their consistency due to an enforced lack of depth.

The top MLS squad of any given season is capable of playing any middle EPL team, and holding it's own, but it couldn't do it again two weeks later.

kodiakTFC
07-06-2009, 11:37 PM
Outside of the top four teams in Portugal, MLS teams are better than that league.

Antoshka
07-06-2009, 11:46 PM
outside the top best teams in israel MLS teams are better than that league...

i think overall what i noticed about mls is the really fast speed of the players and just general play. physicality of players seem at least at par or better than back home. but the technical skills are NOWHERE near. aweful passes, terrible crosses, and the general inability to properly build an attack... oh and of course the total defensive shambles that is rampant in MLS. theres alot of individual players spread out across teams in this league that are several levels above the rest, which make this league seem alot better than it is.

Cashcleaner
07-07-2009, 12:06 AM
I've always looked at MLS as England League One level.
And perhaps with one or two exceptions that would be lower Championship.

But, in a way, this isn't such a bad thing.
Look at it this way:
MLS may be on par with League One right now... but League One will always be League One.

At least MLS has a chance to grow into a higher level of football.
With the right adjustments from the league, and more revenue... MLS could very realistically grow into Championship level play.

First off; I agree with your assessment about League One/Championship and MLS. On a team-by-team basis, we're certainly not at Premiership level, but probably fit in nicely anywhere from mid-table League One to high-table Championship.

Secondly; like you said, MLS has the ability to grow, expand, and develop its overall quality while the lower tier leagues in the UK will always have the Premiership to look up to. We're not playing at Premiership level for the most part yet, but if we continue on with an aim to put together the most competitive soccer league in the world - which SHOULD be our priority if it's not - then we just might surpass all expectations.

flatpicker
07-07-2009, 12:09 AM
^ yup... you furthered my point nicely.

a_billi
07-07-2009, 03:31 AM
I
Top level:
Spain
Italy
England

Second Level
Germany
France
Portugal

Third level (examples)
Holland
Greece
Turkey
Best of Eastern Europe (Russia, Ukraine, Serbia, Czech Rep., Romania, etc)
Belgium
MLS
.

I can promise you no MLS team on there very best day could beat, CSKA Moscow, Olympiacos, Ajax, Galatarsry. Theyd get smacked and embarrassed. In 10-15 years maybe but now no.

james
07-07-2009, 10:34 AM
I can promise you no MLS team on there very best day could beat, CSKA Moscow, Olympiacos, Ajax, Galatarsry. Theyd get smacked and embarrassed. In 10-15 years maybe but now no.

MLS teams can often play a one off good match against teams like these, they can just never hold there own in the long run. Id say if you were to put a team like CSKA or Galatsary or Olympacos in the MLS for 1 season id say these teams would have some ties and maybe a few loses, but over the course of the season ya these teams would win the MLS league tittle probably quite alot of points ahead of any other team in MLS.

Technorgasm
07-07-2009, 10:43 AM
http://archive.perfectduluthday.com/beating-a-dead-horse.gif

H Bomb
07-07-2009, 10:47 AM
come on man, that horse is dead already

apetimberlake
07-07-2009, 05:34 PM
I can promise you no MLS team on there very best day could beat, CSKA Moscow, Olympiacos, Ajax, Galatarsry. Theyd get smacked and embarrassed. In 10-15 years maybe but now no.

Agreed.
I would love to see Ajax or CSKA against TFC.

Would be 10-1 easily.

marquis
07-07-2009, 07:24 PM
Agreed.
I would love to see Ajax or CSKA against TFC.

Would be 10-1 easily.

I doubt it. Plus, you're comparing top teams against bottom; Houston can beat TFC almost every time they wish to. On the other hand, if you take away Ajax and PSV, what's left? Heerenven? Please.

jloome
07-07-2009, 07:42 PM
I doubt it. Plus, you're comparing top teams against bottom; Houston can beat TFC almost every time they wish to. On the other hand, if you take away Ajax and PSV, what's left? Heerenven? Please.

Heerenven would probably win MLS walking away.

torontocelt
07-07-2009, 08:35 PM
I doubt it. Plus, you're comparing top teams against bottom; Houston can beat TFC almost every time they wish to. On the other hand, if you take away Ajax and PSV, what's left? Heerenven? Please.

Seriously where has this arrogance came from? The Dutch league has plenty of good teams. I cannot make my mind up if you are arrogant, ignorant or just plain know nothing about football?

james
07-07-2009, 10:29 PM
Agreed.
I would love to see Ajax or CSKA against TFC.

Would be 10-1 easily.

10-1 is an over statement. MLS teams have played against teams like Barcelona and Chelsea and Celtic in the passed 5 years, and i believe teams like New Englnad actually beat Celtic, and tho MLS teams did lose to teams like Barcelona...it wasnt 10-1 is was more like 6-2. And a team like Barcelona is miles ahead of a team like CSKA or Ajax in recent years.

That said CSKA and Ajax are better then any MLS team. If you put them in MLS these teams would win the league...but i bet you they would lose a few and tie few games here and there. They wouldnt win week in and week out scores like 10-1 thats forsure!!!!

Your putting MLS even lower then it is compared to these teams.

james
07-07-2009, 10:34 PM
Seriously where has this arrogance came from? The Dutch league has plenty of good teams. I cannot make my mind up if you are arrogant, ignorant or just plain know nothing about football?

Dutch league does have some good teams. The dutch League like 2 years ago was rated the 6th best league in Europe. England, Italy, Spain,Germany, and France were better. Not sure if the ratting has changed.

brad
07-07-2009, 11:11 PM
I can promise you no MLS team on there very best day could beat, CSKA Moscow, Olympiacos, Ajax, Galatarsry. Theyd get smacked and embarrassed. In 10-15 years maybe but now no.

Bold statement, upsets happen all the time in Football.

a_billi
07-08-2009, 02:16 AM
Bold statement, upsets happen all the time in Football.

Sure if Toronto FC get lucky maybe. But realistically if Toronto FC were playing against the CSKA's, Olympiacos, Ajax, they'd probably loose 5-6 matches if they had a ten match series. Its nothing to be ashamed of its just the truth. Id still support TFC because its in the best leauge in North America and thats all I need. Those clubs have been established for years and have the best acadamies in the world. Toronto FC only three years and an Academy for only two years. And sorry those dutch teams most likely would win the MLS cup it wont be a cakewalk but theyll do enough. Lets have this discussion in 7-10 years when our Academy players are men and playing football at the highest level. Personally I think the Toronto FC academy will be the Porto, Ajax, Red Star Belgrade of North America. Im actually excited and cant wait to see the academy players in action at club and national team level.

Waits for someone to come in and talk about the Vancouver Academy. :canada:

torontocelt
07-08-2009, 06:15 AM
Sure if Toronto FC get lucky maybe. But realistically if Toronto FC were playing against the CSKA's, Olympiacos, Ajax, they'd probably loose 5-6 matches if they had a ten match series. Its nothing to be ashamed of its just the truth. Id still support TFC because its in the best leauge in North America and thats all I need. Those clubs have been established for years and have the best acadamies in the world. Toronto FC only three years and an Academy for only two years. And sorry those dutch teams most likely would win the MLS cup it wont be a cakewalk but theyll do enough. Lets have this discussion in 7-10 years when our Academy players are men and playing football at the highest level. Personally I think the Toronto FC academy will be the Porto, Ajax, Red Star Belgrade of North America. Im actually excited and cant wait to see the academy players in action at club and national team level.

Waits for someone to come in and talk about the Vancouver Academy. :canada:

Good football academies are actually very difficult to come by and even if you throw a ton of money at them there is still no guarantee that they will ever produce great players. With regards to the Ajax system they have been incredibly successful in producing excellent young players for many, many years, for me they have probably the best system in the world and it has paid for itself probably 100 times over in player sales. If TFC were to have an academy even a quarter as successful it would be an amazing accomplishment. It is even harder for academies now that young payers are being identified from even younger ages and snapped up by the big clubs. If TFC can produce decent player to fill their own squad then I would see that as a success.

marquis
07-08-2009, 07:46 AM
Seriously where has this arrogance came from? The Dutch league has plenty of good teams. I cannot make my mind up if you are arrogant, ignorant or just plain know nothing about football?

If my opinions about football would prompt you to pass personal judgements, then I am willing to withdraw from this discussion.

Just to clarify, my intention was not to belittle some European Leagues, but to actually debate the fact that MLS is severely underrated, even by its own followers. Supporters, stadiums, media attention can actually make a league and football in general look better (or worse) than it actually is. I do believe that MLS can be placed in the same ballpark with leagues from Greece, Turkey, Eastern Europe or Holland, even though these leagues can produce from time to time teams that are actually a lot better than the rest of the league.

hobophobe
07-08-2009, 08:09 AM
I do believe that MLS can be placed in the same ballpark with leagues from Greece, Turkey, Eastern Europe or Holland, even though these leagues can produce from time to time teams that are actually a lot better than the rest of the league.

I think i'd have to disagree with Turkey (at least). I think it will be a long time before MLS can produce a team to match the likes (in any aspect) of Galatasaray and Fenerbahce (who finished 4 and 5 last season in the Super Lig). Teams like Besiktas, Ankaragucu, Bursaspor, Trabzonspor, and a few others are pretty big clubs from the pitch to the organization as a whole too.

You can also even look at some of the big stars who have played in that league (past and present).

torontocelt
07-08-2009, 08:32 AM
If my opinions about football would prompt you to pass personal judgements, then I am willing to withdraw from this discussion.

Just to clarify, my intention was not to belittle some European Leagues, but to actually debate the fact that MLS is severely underrated, even by its own followers. Supporters, stadiums, media attention can actually make a league and football in general look better (or worse) than it actually is. I do believe that MLS can be placed in the same ballpark with leagues from Greece, Turkey, Eastern Europe or Holland, even though these leagues can produce from time to time teams that are actually a lot better than the rest of the league.

Apologies if I have upset you however if you demean established leagues like the Dutch then you should expect your opinion to be called into question. I honestly cannot see where you are coming from that there are only two good teams in Holland, this is simply not true. Your outlandish claim is what sparked me into questioning you personally ie arrogant (exteremly pro MLS beyond all reason) or ignorant (don't really know much about other leagues outside the MLS) as I can see no real footballing reason how you could have come to that conclusion?

nascarguy
07-08-2009, 08:52 AM
players like JDG could get more money and playing time here in the mls right now

just look JDG could be makeing about $7m here were over sea he could only make under a 1m and play less time

marquis
07-08-2009, 09:37 AM
Apologies if I have upset you however if you demean established leagues like the Dutch then you should expect your opinion to be called into question. I honestly cannot see where you are coming from that there are only two good teams in Holland, this is simply not true. Your outlandish claim is what sparked me into questioning you personally ie arrogant (exteremly pro MLS beyond all reason) or ignorant (don't really know much about other leagues outside the MLS) as I can see no real footballing reason how you could have come to that conclusion?

Apologies accepted.
This is not MLS vs. Dutch league. I agree that overall the Dutch is better, but not by that astronomical difference.
I’ve been following football all my life. I grew up in Eastern Europe (Romania) and moved to Canada 6 years ago. My assertion about Turkish, Greek, etc. leagues is based on how well Romanians teams were doing against the likes of Galata, Panatinaikos or Dinamo Kiev and historically, they managed to beat them as many times they were beaten. I am convinced that MLS is not worse than Romanian league. I do agree that on a good year, Galatasaray or CSKA or Olympiakos would easily win MLS, but it is also true they would dominate their own leagues the same way.
And yes, I am pro football in North America, not MLS in particular, which I believe has lots of things to improve. This is the only football we have here and we need to give it our support. Constantly demeaning and underselling it would not make it better; some people actually take pride in only following Euro football and ignoring MLS.
As a conclusion, MLS football is not half as bad as some people think. Maybe I am exaggerating a bit, but so do you – the truth is probably somewhere in the middleJ

james
07-08-2009, 04:10 PM
Apologies accepted.
This is not MLS vs. Dutch league. I agree that overall the Dutch is better, but not by that astronomical difference.
I’ve been following football all my life. I grew up in Eastern Europe (Romania) and moved to Canada 6 years ago. My assertion about Turkish, Greek, etc. leagues is based on how well Romanians teams were doing against the likes of Galata, Panatinaikos or Dinamo Kiev and historically, they managed to beat them as many times they were beaten. I am convinced that MLS is not worse than Romanian league. I do agree that on a good year, Galatasaray or CSKA or Olympiakos would easily win MLS, but it is also true they would dominate their own leagues the same way.
And yes, I am pro football in North America, not MLS in particular, which I believe has lots of things to improve. This is the only football we have here and we need to give it our support. Constantly demeaning and underselling it would not make it better; some people actually take pride in only following Euro football and ignoring MLS.
As a conclusion, MLS football is not half as bad as some people think. Maybe I am exaggerating a bit, but so do you – the truth is probably somewhere in the middleJ

funny in recent years i have been taking pride in paying more attention to North America football and some of the Southern American leagues to.

I still follow Euro leagues, but some of the big clubs in Euro are really starting to get to me with the mad spending of cash, its getting to a rediculous point now you might as well just buy a Champions League or League tittle!

CretanBull
07-08-2009, 04:16 PM
10-1 is an over statement. MLS teams have played against teams like Barcelona and Chelsea and Celtic in the passed 5 years, and i believe teams like New Englnad actually beat Celtic, and tho MLS teams did lose to teams like Barcelona...it wasnt 10-1 is was more like 6-2. And a team like Barcelona is miles ahead of a team like CSKA or Ajax in recent years.

That said CSKA and Ajax are better then any MLS team. If you put them in MLS these teams would win the league...but i bet you they would lose a few and tie few games here and there. They wouldnt win week in and week out scores like 10-1 thats forsure!!!!

Your putting MLS even lower then it is compared to these teams.

When MLS team have faced European clubs, it's happened in the peak of the MLS season and the middle of the European off-season. When Barca come over here, it's to stretch their legs and put on a show...if it were a competitive game it would be atleast 10-1...if we could even manage a goal.

james
07-08-2009, 04:30 PM
When MLS team have faced European clubs, it's happened in the peak of the MLS season and the middle of the European off-season. When Barca come over here, it's to stretch their legs and put on a show...if it were a competitive game it would be atleast 10-1...if we could even manage a goal.

even teams in the FA Cup in like the 4th division dont lose 10-1 to teams like Man United and Chelsea....and we were talking about CSKA and Ajax beatting us 10-1, so no id say teams like CSKA would not destroy us like that. You guys give MLS even less credit then they deserve.

you could also say MLS teams dont always want to play there top players for a full match in friendly in the middle of a season because they dont want to get injured in a very inportant part of the season. I know i dont want to see any TFC players get hurt vs Real Madrid this summer, its just a friendly so who gives a fuck.

EAsoccer
07-08-2009, 07:06 PM
The answer to this debate is complex. American sports in general is structured for parity to put teams on par with each other from year to year.

MLS cannot realistically & accurately be compared to other leagues because MLS plays on international dates where many players are missing and results can be misleading.

The uneven schedule, player exodus to better leagues, salary cap rules, The College draft and Expansion are all other factors not allowing us to truely judge the league due to the constant roster overturn.

Yes... Colombus won the Championship and Houston have done well the last few years, but outside of that we really cant rank teams and if we can it fluctuates from week to week. In MLS, a team can go from first to worst in a matter of weeks or due to a signing(s).

It is easy to judge the strength of European leagues because they do not deal with all of the factors MLS does. Although teams in Europe make moves to strengthen and get rid of weaker players each year the quality
usually remains on somewhat the same level.

The first step to actually comparing our league versus another is having a single table to see which teams have the best depth over the course of a season. As far as currently, MLS is just above the USL(only slightly) and below the Mexican Liga.

I really can't see any MLS teams competing in the Europa(maybe the qualifying stages but not the Cup group stages proper), so any league that consistently has team(s) in the Europa qualfiying stages I would confidently say in all likelihood have a stronger league than MLS just off the strength of those few teams.

OneLoveOneEric
07-08-2009, 07:17 PM
even teams in the FA Cup in like the 4th division dont lose 10-1 to teams like Man United and Chelsea....and we were talking about CSKA and Ajax beatting us 10-1, so no id say teams like CSKA would not destroy us like that. You guys give MLS even less credit then they deserve.

you could also say MLS teams dont always want to play there top players for a full match in friendly in the middle of a season because they dont want to get injured in a very inportant part of the season. I know i dont want to see any TFC players get hurt vs Real Madrid this summer, its just a friendly so who gives a fuck.


Not true at all. Shit-kickings happen all the time. Hell, didn't Barca put 7 or 8 past Bayern Munich this year?
Not saying it's a given, but any good European team is capable of leathering any MLS team over 90 minutes of actual competitive football.

Dirk Diggler
07-08-2009, 07:22 PM
I think it was Bayern who scored that many goals on Porto (or maybe some other Portuguese team).

OneLoveOneEric
07-08-2009, 07:33 PM
^^^Oops. You're right. It was 4-0 over Bayern, which should translate to 10-0 over an MLS side :)

Beach_Red
07-08-2009, 08:01 PM
I really can't see any MLS teams competing in the Europa(maybe the qualifying stages but not the Cup group stages proper), so any league that consistently has team(s) in the Europa qualfiying stages I would confidently say in all likelihood have a stronger league than MLS just off the strength of those few teams.

I don't know much about the Europa, but are there many teams past the qualifying stages with a $2.5 million roster and less than 15,000 tickets sold for their home games?

CretanBull
07-08-2009, 10:23 PM
When was the last time that a team like Man U or Chelsea faced a FL2 team and dressed it's top XI?

EAsoccer
07-09-2009, 01:46 PM
I don't know much about the Europa, but are there many teams past the qualifying stages with a $2.5 million roster and less than 15,000 tickets sold for their home games?

The Europa is the new name for the UEFA Cup. My point was that I dont think MLS can compete with teams in the UEFA Cup, the qualifying stages maybe... but definetely not the Cup proper. So therefore I highly doubt MLS teams are as good as many of the leagues with 6-8 teams in European competition.

Beach_Red
07-09-2009, 02:16 PM
The Europa is the new name for the UEFA Cup. My point was that I dont think MLS can compete with teams in the UEFA Cup, the qualifying stages maybe... but definetely not the Cup proper. So therefore I highly doubt MLS teams are as good as many of the leagues with 6-8 teams in European competition.


All I meant was it's not the league the team is in, it's the budget the team has. MLS teams can compete against any other teams in the world with the same roster budget. Someday MLS will raise the salary cap (please, oh please) and then they'll be able to compete with bigger teams. That's all it will take.

OneLoveOneEric
07-09-2009, 03:03 PM
I disagree. It'll take much more than money. Look at "middle of the road" teams like Man City (no insult intended) that are throwing huge money at big names and being told to take a walk. You need prestige, champions league qualification, etc.

james
07-09-2009, 09:32 PM
I don't know much about the Europa, but are there many teams past the qualifying stages with a $2.5 million roster and less than 15,000 tickets sold for their home games?

salary wise i dont know, id be suprised if any team in the group stage of UEFA pay less then 2.5 million on players, but attendence wise suprisingly there is always some teams in the group stages that average attendence as low as 15,000 fans and even lower.

james
07-09-2009, 09:35 PM
When was the last time that a team like Man U or Chelsea faced a FL2 team and dressed it's top XI?

not sure maybe about League 2 teams, but i have seen some League 1 teams and Championship teams that have made it rather far into the FA Cup rounds and played big teams like Man U or Chelsea and seen them play some big names against the smaller clubs.

james
07-09-2009, 09:38 PM
Not true at all. Shit-kickings happen all the time. Hell, didn't Barca put 7 or 8 past Bayern Munich this year?
Not saying it's a given, but any good European team is capable of leathering any MLS team over 90 minutes of actual competitive football.

i think some teams might beable to distroy some MLS teams, but it was more the fact that they said teams like CSKA or Ajax would destroy MLS teams 10-1 as like a given. I dont see those teams winning 10-1 as easy as that. When you consider a team like the Rangers made it to UEFA Cup final recently, a team that plays against small clubs that get like 5,000 fans a game and dont have much money and on a regular basis, and even Rangers arent winning 10-1 on a regualr basis. Ya they win some games 5-0, and 5-1 and scores like that quite often but 10-1 is very rare. I dont see MLS being any worse then teams like Inverness or some team like that in the Scottish league. If they aint losing 10-1 then id be suprised to see MLS teams lose 10-1 to a team like CSKA or Ajax.

Oldtimer
07-10-2009, 07:13 AM
Almost any MLS team (except New York) could compete in the French second division.
The top teams could be in the lower half of the French first division.

I know that because I lived 3 years in France and took in some local second division matches of OGC Nice (which is now in the first division).