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Phowell
06-24-2009, 10:49 AM
Hello Gents

Myself and a couple of mates have been watching the rise and fall of attendances across the MLS and were pretty staggered at the amount of support TFC have received over the past few years since its introduction.

We were discussing the issues of away support and were scouring youtube and came across the away trip to Columbus (700km, give or take).

Can someone let me know an estimate of the away attendance for that game? And if this is your closest league rival geographically?

We were also discussing the issue of friendlies between teams from the UK and USA/Canada. We attended the USA v England game in New Jersey back in 2005 and it was a great event. Do you think friendlies against teams such as Leeds or Southampton (who are in deep financial trouble) would draw decent crowds at your place? If so it could be financially viable for a tour for both sides, if it was done in the correct manner.

I would be keen to hear any views on this.

Good Luck for the season.
Philip Howell
Wycombe Wanderers supporter

billyfly
06-24-2009, 10:52 AM
We Hatez Montreal!!! WE HATEZ IT!!!

billyfly
06-24-2009, 11:11 AM
Hi Philip,

Wow, I would have thought that you would have tons of responses by now with stats, facts and figures as there are quite a few of us on this board that love pontificating about all things TFC.

Phowell
06-24-2009, 11:12 AM
Could be the time difference eh?

The Kingpin
06-24-2009, 11:13 AM
Hello Gents

Myself and a couple of mates have been watching the rise and fall of attendances across the MLS and were pretty staggered at the amount of support TFC have received over the past few years since its introduction.

We were discussing the issues of away support and were scouring youtube and came across the away trip to Columbus (700km, give or take).

Can someone let me know an estimate of the away attendance for that game? And if this is your closest league rival geographically?

We were also discussing the issue of friendlies between teams from the UK and USA/Canada. We attended the USA v England game in New Jersey back in 2005 and it was a great event. Do you think friendlies against teams such as Leeds or Southampton (who are in deep financial trouble) would draw decent crowds at your place? If so it could be financially viable for a tour for both sides, if it was done in the correct manner.

I would be keen to hear any views on this.

Good Luck for the season.
Philip Howell
Wycombe Wanderers supporter

Are you writing representing any particular organisation? I live in the UK but am from Toronto and was more involved with RPB and TFC when I was in Canada.

Phowell
06-24-2009, 11:16 AM
No particular organisation,i have a friend who runs the rivals.net website. But we were discussing how the away support in England is so important, due to the fact that in particular lower league teams may only get 5-6000 fans per home game. It plays almost a vital role in the atmopshere.

Gobi
06-24-2009, 11:17 AM
2500 traveled to Columbus in March of '08.

Most away trips for Eastern teams draw at least 100 of us, often more.

Phowell
06-24-2009, 11:18 AM
Is it 12 hours plus to new york?

James17930
06-24-2009, 11:18 AM
That Columbus game -- the season opener last year -- had anywhere between 1500 and 2000, depending on who you ask (or even 2500, I see above). It was the largest travelling support for any MLS game in history.

Ossington Mental Youth
06-24-2009, 11:21 AM
we do fucking hate Columbus adn i think 2000-2200 went to the first one, not sure about the numbers to the second one.

Joe Kool
06-24-2009, 11:22 AM
Is it 12 hours plus to new york?

9 hours to New York by car.

MartinUtd
06-24-2009, 11:24 AM
If you look at the Schedules on the official MLS site it gives the attendance figures for all the games plays this season so far. This is TFC's link but you can do it for each team

http://web.mlsnet.com/schedule/scoreboard/season.jsp?team=t280

As for geography. MLS teams within a 7-8 hour drive are Columbus, Chicago, New England (Foxboro near Boston), NYRB (New Jersey) and soon to be Philadelphia.

Closest and most heated rival is Montreal which is about a 6 hour drive but they play in the league below us (USL) and we only meet in cup games. There's talk of a USL team being put in Hamilton which would create a real derby but until that happens we're in for the long haul for any away games.

Also to note, there's no promotion and relelgation here. It's all about money.

And yes, I would give my left nut to see Leeds play.

Phowell
06-24-2009, 11:24 AM
Good effort.

Would you go any further than east coast or Columbus for an away game?

werewolf
06-24-2009, 11:28 AM
We had 60-80 travel to LA late in the first season. That is about as far away as it gets.

Phowell
06-24-2009, 11:29 AM
Thanks for that.

So its 15,000+ at most games.

With regards to that link, I'm assuming most games allowed intergration amongst supporters in the MLS? With th exception of local games with large number of fans expected e.g. TFC/Columbus. So they wouldnt be able to get an exact idea of away support without supplying tickets through TFC for away games?

Yohan
06-24-2009, 11:29 AM
for season opener vs Kansas City which was about 15hrs drive one way, about 100 TFC supporters went

looks like Seattle might be a decent draw this year

generally in MLS, considering the distance involved between cities, if you get 20 away supporters for a game, it's considered pretty good.

only time I've seen a decent away supporters at a game was Chivas vs LA (both play in LA), Houston vs Dallas, NY vs DC, New England vs NY. Chicago vs Columbus is a decent rivalry as well.

Things might change with Philadelphia coming to MLS next year, and they might get a decent rivalry going with Columbus and New York.

Seattle vs Vancouver vs Portland starting in 2011 should be good as well

Yohan
06-24-2009, 11:31 AM
Thanks for that.

So its 15,000+ at most games.

With regards to that link, I'm assuming most games allowed intergration amongst supporters in the MLS? With th exception of local games with large number of fans expected e.g. TFC/Columbus. So they wouldnt be able to get an exact idea of away support without supplying tickets through TFC for away games?
Most MLS games avg 10000 to 12000 per game, except TFC and Seattle.

MLS rules stipulate that away supporters be allowed access to tickets (about 100 set aside in Toronto). However, since most stadiums do not sell out, really no trouble for away supporters to get tickets. And most supporters groups are pretty organized when it comes to going on away trips and coordinating with front offices

MartinUtd
06-24-2009, 11:32 AM
All of our games draw sell out with the exception of weekday nights which still generally get 18000+

I'm hoping to his the west coast this summer for the Seattle game... I think that one will draw a few as there's a small number of TFC fans in Vancouver plus those willing to travel. The Champions League game in Peurto Rico will be an interesting one as well as it'll be our first match outside of the US and Canada.

King Jeff
06-24-2009, 11:32 AM
Do you think friendlies against teams such as Leeds or Southampton (who are in deep financial trouble) would draw decent crowds at your place?

I could see Leeds being a draw, provided it was priced right. I doubt Southampton would attract much interest.

MartinUtd
06-24-2009, 11:33 AM
Don't forget DC and LA.. they draw well

Phowell
06-24-2009, 11:35 AM
Fair play to TFC for organising themselves in such a short space of time.

You will be the Man United of MLS before you know it. Although hopefully you wont sell your club to Americans.

One final thing - Are the coach trips organised through the club or independently, when you are going to Columbus or New York for example?

Phowell
06-24-2009, 11:37 AM
To be fair, the saints dont get much interest over here, so I dont know why I threw them in.

Other teams in financial trouble are Newcastle. And they would probably bring about 500 fans who just want a Toronto p*ss-up.

Ageroo
06-24-2009, 11:39 AM
One final thing - Are the coach trips organised through the club or independently, when you are going to Columbus or New York for example?

Away trips are usually solely organized through the Supporters Groups.

billyfly
06-24-2009, 11:39 AM
http://www.freewebs.com/ajaxcolts2/fat%20geordie.jpg

Toronto - here they come.

Yohan
06-24-2009, 11:39 AM
Don't forget DC and LA.. they draw well
you're right. LA draws about 17000 per avg so far this season and DC about 15000

keep in mind that MLS reports tickets sold, not necessarily actual attendance at games

Lucky Strike
06-24-2009, 11:47 AM
Hello Gents

Myself and a couple of mates have been watching the rise and fall of attendances across the MLS and were pretty staggered at the amount of support TFC have received over the past few years since its introduction.

We were discussing the issues of away support and were scouring youtube and came across the away trip to Columbus (700km, give or take).

Can someone let me know an estimate of the away attendance for that game? And if this is your closest league rival geographically?

We were also discussing the issue of friendlies between teams from the UK and USA/Canada. We attended the USA v England game in New Jersey back in 2005 and it was a great event. Do you think friendlies against teams such as Leeds or Southampton (who are in deep financial trouble) would draw decent crowds at your place? If so it could be financially viable for a tour for both sides, if it was done in the correct manner.

I would be keen to hear any views on this.

Good Luck for the season.
Philip Howell
Wycombe Wanderers supporter

Welcome to RPB: here are my thoughts on three points I have bolded.

1st: 690 km actually. :D

2nd (A): There were two "Columbus Invasions". The 2008 game saw roundabout 2300 supporters travelling while the 2009 one saw about 2000. These are the numbers as I've come to understand them and of course, they're approximate.

2nd (B): Columbus is in fact the closest league rival. Chicago stands about 840 km away and New York 848 km. However, our real rivals (who play in the United Soccer League - the second tier of North American football) are Montreal and Vancouver, 541 and 4373 kms away respectively. It must sound ridiculously far to have rivals but such is the life of sports in North America.

3rd: Probably not, unfortunately. I would argue that because North America boasts undoubtedly the biggest and best professional sports leagues of hockey, baseball, basketball and American/Canadian football (I'm excluding other sports which aren't mainstream here - like cricket for example), people here have a sort of mentality where they only want to see the best and biggest clubs of the world. In other words, the biggest leagues of the sports we find interesting are here (football excluded).

As I understand it, Leeds is a pretty popular club in England so it would have a better chance to draw than Southampton, but still people will want to see bigger clubs. For example, when the All-Star game took place last year in our stadium, MLS faced West Ham. And many people were displeased because it wasn't a "big enough" team, particularly when Liverpool was also rumoured to come.

This year, teams such as Real Madrid, Chelsea and other clubs like this are making trips to North America and people are satisfied. Long story short, it may seem strange for MLS clubs and their fans to only want to see the biggest clubs despite MLS not being a top league, but that's my theory.

Hope it's been helpful.

Platts
06-24-2009, 11:47 AM
When significant numbers of fans (over 50) travel they are usually designated a section. We have always been put in a seperate section even when there were only a handful of us.
DC Utd. for example always makes us go into the top deck where no one else stands.

There is a strange dichotomy in MLS at present because a few clubs play in huge NFL stadia. For them they could sell 10,000 away tickets. Others who have a decent attendance like ourselves we have only room for 200 away supporters in the top section of the NE stand. Both Chicago and DCU have filled that capacity and have been by far the strongest away support in our ground.
These two supporters groups are very good IMO. They have stood the test of time and are quality.
One great advantage that they have in their grounds over our group is that they control their entire supporters section as far as tickets go. We on the other hand have to put up with many fans in "our" section who got the tickets simply because they were cheap tickets, often sold by scalpers. This happened because the tickets were nearly sold out before the supporters groups could expand to their eventual numbers. It has been the only real pain in the ass of having such great crowd numbers in general over the first 3 seasons. If the numbers had been more modest all of the supporters would be in the south end and the south East corner and we would be a much more formiddable force. It would be like Columbus every week.

IMO some of the times stated earlier are a bit optimistic. One always has to add about an hour for crossing the US border. my friend and I blazed to Boston last year and made it in 9 1/2 hours in the middle of the night going 150km/h.

el rojo fanatico
06-24-2009, 11:49 AM
Fair play to TFC for organising themselves in such a short space of time.

You will be the Man United of MLS before you know it. Although hopefully you wont sell your club to Americans.

One final thing - Are the coach trips organised through the club or independently, when you are going to Columbus or New York for example?
Bus trips for the most part are organised by the supporters groups.
As for American owners, if you can land a good one like Randy Lerner it is ok. If you get the trainwrecks like Glazer or the cabal at Anfield its another story. The attraction is the deep pockets of those Yanks!

A little side note, the MLS owns a stake of every club in the league

Broadview
06-24-2009, 11:57 AM
IMO some of the times stated earlier are a bit optimistic. One always has to add about an hour for crossing the US border. my friend and I blazed to Boston last year and made it in 9 1/2 hours in the middle of the night going 150km/h.

You also have to factor in 25 minute smoke breaks every 90 minutes. For an 8 hr bus ride, that'll drive you nuts.

Boudge
06-24-2009, 12:05 PM
I am going to San Juan PR in August!!

haha

jabbronies
06-24-2009, 12:08 PM
The only reason L.A. gets those numbers is because of Beckham. We'll see what happens to thier attendance next year when golden balls is gone.

Yohan
06-24-2009, 12:12 PM
The only reason L.A. gets those numbers is because of Beckham. We'll see what happens to thier attendance next year when golden balls is gone.
Beckham is not even playing yet. If anything, expect LA home attendance to go even higher when he starts playing in July something

Kevvv
06-24-2009, 12:18 PM
I think we could get a decent crowd for a team like Leeds, as long as the price was right. Problem is, how would they recoup the money to pay for an overseas friendly. And when could it happen - our season starts in March and ends October/November, and there's great resistance (among supporters) to playing friendlies during our season, even against top-flight clubs.

That leaves Feb/March, and somehow I don't see many English teams taking on a North-American tour as their season draws to a close.

Commie Red
06-24-2009, 12:21 PM
It sounds like you are trying to organise something -- and have some background in it. One of the possible "problems" to keep in mind is that BMO stadium sells-out pretty consistantly. If you want to bring 500+ supporters, you might want to pre-arrange something with the front-office (to hold back tickets, etc.).

What I think would be an attractive set-up -- just dreaming here -- would be a home-and-home series with TFC against an English club (The annual "John Carver" trophy: Toronto vs Newcastle?). You bring over 500 supporters we'll bring over 2,000 (add on an EPL game at Anfield or Old Trafford and some beer into the package and we'll make it 10,000 from our side). Of course, the problem would be that the English club would probably only be able to sell 2,000 seats for such an event -- all to the Toronto visitors.

CoachGT
06-24-2009, 12:30 PM
Last year we had 30-40 from all supporters groups go to San Jose. A similar effort is being done for Seattle this year. Those are 5+ hour flights from Toronto, so driving isn't an option unless you can get two weeks off work for the drive.

Roogsy
06-24-2009, 12:40 PM
Also noted is that in some of the cities, expats tend to join us.

For example, while there was around 60 or 70 that travelled to Los Angeles, once there we hooked up with another 40 or 50 Canadians living in California attending the game.

The same thing tends to happen in DC where away support tends to be pretty strong to begin with. You can get several hundred TFC supporters attend a game in DC even though it's a good 12 hours away.

Phowell
06-24-2009, 12:46 PM
Welcome to RPB: here are my thoughts on three points I have bolded.

1st: 690 km actually. :D

2nd (A): There were two "Columbus Invasions". The 2008 game saw roundabout 2300 supporters travelling while the 2009 one saw about 2000. These are the numbers as I've come to understand them and of course, they're approximate.

2nd (B): Columbus is in fact the closest league rival. Chicago stands about 840 km away and New York 848 km. However, our real rivals (who play in the United Soccer League - the second tier of North American football) are Montreal and Vancouver, 541 and 4373 kms away respectively. It must sound ridiculously far to have rivals but such is the life of sports in North America.

3rd: Probably not, unfortunately. I would argue that because North America boasts undoubtedly the biggest and best professional sports leagues of hockey, baseball, basketball and American/Canadian football (I'm excluding other sports which aren't mainstream here - like cricket for example), people here have a sort of mentality where they only want to see the best and biggest clubs of the world. In other words, the biggest leagues of the sports we find interesting are here (football excluded).

As I understand it, Leeds is a pretty popular club in England so it would have a better chance to draw than Southampton, but still people will want to see bigger clubs. For example, when the All-Star game took place last year in our stadium, MLS faced West Ham. And many people were displeased because it wasn't a "big enough" team, particularly when Liverpool was also rumoured to come.

This year, teams such as Real Madrid, Chelsea and other clubs like this are making trips to North America and people are satisfied. Long story short, it may seem strange for MLS clubs and their fans to only want to see the biggest clubs despite MLS not being a top league, but that's my theory.

Hope it's been helpful.


I have to say - that has got to be the biggest distance between any two rival teams in the whole world. 4373km.

That would be some away day. You could have the pictures of the beard slowly growing during the road trip. Great Stuff.

I saw some youtute action of Montreal or Vancouver, and their fans looked fairly partisan? I had no idea there was a demand for a football team in Canada before I saw the introduction of the MLS.

Very Helpful - thanks for the extensive stats and rivalry info.

Lets hope England can play Canada in a friendly then everyone can get a look in!

el rojo fanatico
06-24-2009, 01:07 PM
^ I don't think that Canada and England have played since WWII! As long as the game is in London so our All Red Army can invade Wembley

AdamZ
06-24-2009, 02:16 PM
I saw some youtute action of Montreal or Vancouver, and their fans looked fairly partisan? I had no idea there was a demand for a football team in Canada before I saw the introduction of the MLS.


Vancouver and Montreal play in the USL, which is a step below the MLS in terms of popularity and quality, but still has something of a fanbase. There's no promotion/relegation system in North American football, but the USL still plays a full, organized league, and there are several supporters groups that are quite good. Vancouver's Southsiders and Montreal's UMO2 are pretty partisan as you say, and quite passionate.

That's one of the biggest reasons I'm looking forward to Montreal joining MLS in the future. Vancouver is already a confirmed expansion team. Matches against those two will be superb, the move up from USL to MLS will do wonders for Vancouver's attendance and Montreal's is already strong.

I believe some other USL teams have passionate and organized fans, I think Portland was mentioned a few times around here (edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJri0CfH4RQ&NR=1)

SilverSamurai
06-24-2009, 02:26 PM
^ I don't think that Canada and England have played since WWII! As long as the game is in London so our All Red Army can invade Wembley

Now you're talking!
Road trip?
I mean... away trip? lol :canada:
Besides the CMNT needs all the friendlies it can get.

But maybe package it along the lines of a friendly for the CMNT and TFC, along the lines of a doubleheader or something?

Phowell
06-24-2009, 03:39 PM
I believe some other USL teams have passionate and organized fans, I think Portland was mentioned a few times around here (edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJri0CfH4RQ&NR=1)


Thanks for the link AdamZ

That is a pretty rowdy bunch of supporters - I honestly had no idea that any team playing in a league below the MLS in the US/canada would have anything like that support.

Eye-opener.

Cheers

The Kingpin
06-24-2009, 04:10 PM
Thanks for the link AdamZ

That is a pretty rowdy bunch of supporters - I honestly had no idea that any team playing in a league below the MLS in the US/canada would have anything like that support.

Eye-opener.

Cheers

Where in the UK are you located?

Kevvv
06-24-2009, 04:14 PM
Where in the UK are you located?


My money's on Wycombe:


Wycombe Wanderers supporter




:D

JJSFC
06-24-2009, 07:29 PM
We were also discussing the issue of friendlies between teams from the UK and USA/Canada. We attended the USA v England game in New Jersey back in 2005 and it was a great event. Do you think friendlies against teams such as Leeds or Southampton (who are in deep financial trouble) would draw decent crowds at your place? If so it could be financially viable for a tour for both sides, if it was done in the correct manner.

Thanks for including that!

Will be looking forward to Wycombe home and away next season - I see my childhood best mate Dan Fitchett might be a first team regular next season!

Bars92
06-24-2009, 07:37 PM
I would pay to see Southampton, but thousands wouldn't. I'd love to see Millwall or someone like that.

JJSFC
06-24-2009, 07:58 PM
I would pay to see Southampton, but thousands wouldn't. I'd love to see Millwall or someone like that.
Bolded: Good man!

Otherwise, why would you like to play the wonderful, lovely team that is Millwall? Many of us Brits who have the 'pleasure' would happily let you take them off our hands. :)

prizby
06-24-2009, 08:11 PM
columbus trip won't have anywhere near as many ppl, the columbus FO is putting major restrictions on TFC fans

tfcleeds
06-24-2009, 08:39 PM
If Leeds played us in a friendly, I'd definitely be there...

tfcleeds
06-24-2009, 08:42 PM
Bear in mind, the fan support you see....it could be even better. In Toronto at least, TFC still has to win over the Eurosnobs. If we did that, we could get 30-40K a game (given the inevitable stadium expansion) no question. MLS still has a lot of room to grow here.

troy1982
06-25-2009, 12:11 AM
The only reason L.A. gets those numbers is because of Beckham. We'll see what happens to thier attendance next year when golden balls is gone.

The Galaxy have always had strong attendance and hever never averaged below 20K at HDC.

They are currently at 19.3 right now without Beckham and Donovan.

1996 30,129
1997 23,626
1998 21,784
1999 17,632
2000 20,400
2001 17,387
2002 19,047
2003 21,983 (HDC opens mid season)
2004 23,809
2005 24,204
2006 20,814
2007 24,252 (the year beckham joined)
2008 26,009
2009 19,300 (after 7 games)

All Time 22,390 (excluding 2009)

greatwhitenorf
06-25-2009, 12:15 AM
Can't we get a big side in instead of Leeds or Sarfampt'n?

Tranmere Rovers, perhaps? Brighton and Hhhhhhove Allllbion would do nicely, too. We have lots of gulls flying around the ground.

Phowell
06-25-2009, 06:48 AM
Thanks for including that!

Will be looking forward to Wycombe home and away next season - I see my childhood best mate Dan Fitchett might be a first team regular next season!

They still have great support the saints and im looking forward to visiting St MArys. Its a step up in league one with support slightly higher.

In response to the earlier question i do live in Wycombe - Get TFC over for a League 2 tour, you can take in the sights of Leeds, Southampton....and err...Colchester, Milton keynes!!