Protest and debate thread...

[David]

Were you there?

Knowledge is power.

[FluSH]

I know, it's hard to quote that guy but he did have a good point.

We're making it clear that we're not happy with the state of affairs,
which is something you rarely (if ever) get from the Leafs Nation.


I even gave him a LINK...

[Roogsy]

Guys, we have already warned that NEE/Usector issues are not for this board to deal with. If you guys have problems with each other take it elsewhere. This thread will be closed and infractions/bans given if we perceive that a respectful dialogue cannot happen.

[FluSH]

I know, it's hard to quote that guy but he did have a good point.

We're making it clear that we're not happy with the state of affairs,
which is something you rarely (if ever) get from the Leafs Nation.

you mean some of us supporters are making it clear that we are not happy with the current state of affairs...

[Pigfynn]

It's somewhat respectful, besides where else are you going to hear the REAL feelings of all 3 major groups at once?

I'm fascinated. I also think it helps to get things out.

[Roogsy]

It's somewhat respectful, besides where else are you going to hear the REAL feelings of all 3 major groups at once?

I'm fascinated. I also think it helps to get things out.

I agree that honesty is necessary, but we also know these threads can get out of control real fast. We are keeping an eye on it for now but not closing it. These issues are important. However, the second people step out of line, nobody should be surprised if it gets dealt with swiftly.

[jabbronies]

It's somewhat respectful, besides where else are you going to hear the REAL feelings of all 3 major groups at once?

I'm fascinated. I also think it helps to get things out.


Agreed. As long as board rules are followed, I say let it go

[king dave]

Jumpin' Gee Wilikers, you step away from this place for a day and all heck breaks loose!
KD.

[Hooligan69]

Jumpin' Gee Wilikers, you step away from this place for a day and all heck breaks loose!
KD.

LOL It's true. It's damn true. :rofl:

[king dave]

the ban hammer. .

Yes, that's it!
A ham banner!
KD.

[The Kingpin]

thread already exist with a simple summary of what was said.
it's pretty much free from opinion, and just a simple overview.

hopefully, it can stay that way, because clearly person opinions
on the subject are all based on hearsay and moods

Do you have a link for this?

[Parkdale]

Do you have a link for this?

it's in our members only section, but there's a public one on the usector boards. it's pretty much the same info.

[FluSH]

it's in our members only section, but there's a public one on the usector boards. it's pretty much the same info.


I'm pretty sure Kingpin is I.P. banned from the Usec board lol

[olegunnar]

Do you have a link for this?

Take lots of notes!

I bet this will make an excellent case study on experiential marketing gone too far.

[BayernTFC]

The protest has certainly gained some attention. Has anyone else read the critique by Ryan Johnston?

Galaxy coach Bruce Arena and I could not ignore the elephant outside any longer, so I explained:
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/blogs/2009/06/07/johnston_opinion/

Edited by denime

we do not post full articles on RPB board,
and it is already posted in today's news thread

[GabrielHurl]

The protest has certainly gained some attention. Has anyone else read the critique by Ryan Johnston?


Galaxy coach Bruce Arena and I could not ignore the elephant outside any longer, so I explained:

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/blogs/2009/06/07/johnston_opinion/



To me, the more disappointing thing was no recognition to those D-Day veterans by TFC/MLSE at BMO on Saturday

[Blizzard]

To me, the more disappointing thing was no recognition to those D-Day veterans by TFC/MLSE at BMO on Saturday

Oh my! Yes, yes, yes. That really should have happened!

[Maple Leaf Red]

I know, it's hard to quote that guy but he did have a good point.

We're making it clear that we're not happy with the state of affairs,
which is something you rarely (if ever) get from the Leafs Nation.


hahaha yeah, the hiring of Ron Wilson, Brian Burke, the trading away or buying out or not re-signing of Sundin, Tucker, Raycroft, McCabe, etc. etc. had nothing to do with the toxic atmosphere at Leafs games.

Seriously, there should be a moratorium on the ignorant use of the Leafs and their fans when comparing TFC to MLSE's most important property.

[Parkdale]

hahaha yeah, the hiring of Ron Wilson, Brian Burke, the trading away or buying out or not re-signing of Sundin, Tucker, Raycroft, McCabe, etc. etc. had nothing to do with the toxic atmosphere at Leafs games.

Seriously, there should be a moratorium on the ignorant use of the Leafs and their fans when comparing TFC to MLSE's most important property.

I was talking about fans organizing and voicing their displeasure,
not trades and hiring/firing of management. That's not the issue here.
yes, the sports radio djs/reporters/tv hosts criticize the team all the time,
but when was the last time a group of fans got together to show it?

[RedMAN127]

The protest has certainly gained some attention. Has anyone else read the critique by Ryan Johnston?

http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/blogs/2009/06/07/johnston_opinion/


The planned protest on Saturday was not meticulously planned, and it came off as amateurish.

Not really the attention intended? The G&M had a more balanced article today by Paul Attfield (p. S7)

[Maple Leaf Red]

I was talking about fans organizing and voicing their displeasure,
not trades and hiring/firing of management. That's not the issue here.
yes, the sports radio djs/reporters/tv hosts criticize the team all the time,
but when was the last time a group of fans got together to show it?

During almost every home game the fans' feelings are heard unless you think that all of those management decisions came in a vacuum.

[billyfly]

I was talking about fans organizing and voicing their displeasure,
not trades and hiring/firing of management. That's not the issue here.
yes, the sports radio djs/reporters/tv hosts criticize the team all the time,
but when was the last time a group of fans got together to show it?


Too big a fan base to organize anything plus there is really no history in this area of rebellion other than that William Lyon Mackenzie guy.

[VPjr]

What did the CSF and the 'Sack the CSA' protest achieve? Nothing....

Call me biased (which I clearly am) but I'd argue that they both achieved quite a bit, in an indirect way. I wont go into in depth here but feel free to PM me if you want me to explain my thoughts on that.

I like Duane and I enjoyed working with him on the Black Wednesday project. Having said that, I dont support his opinions regarding the RPB and NEE protests against TFC/MLSE. In my view, that protest was LONG overdue and in my view, it has NOTHING to do with losing to Vancouver or having a bad week. We have had a bad 2.5 years.

If I was a shareholder in MLSE (which is impossible since they are a private company) I'd love the job the TFC FO are doing. But I'm not. I'm firstly a soccer nut and secondly someone who would like to support the hometown club. Sadly, TFC is just not something I feel good about supporting and I haven't felt good about it for a long time.

Duane admitted himself that he's no fan of Mo and ultimately, that is where the problems with this club originate. He is a huge problem. Until he's gone, I can't see a bright future. He is a black cloud hanging over this organization. But for some reason, Anselmi et al think Mo walks on water. Of course, when you don't know anything about the sport, you can't sniff out a fraud when you see it. Mo was a great player but great players don't always make great managers. Mo is a malignant tumour that needs to be lanced but I don't believe that's ever going to happen.

[Parkdale]

Too big a fan base to organize anything plus there is really no history in this area of rebellion other than that William Lyon Mackenzie guy.

that's what I was getting at. I wasn't saying that the Leafs don't make changes, or hold players/staff accountable (hell... look at Sam Mitchell on the Raps), but there havn't been any actual protests by fans. I guess it's already very clear what's working and what isn't.

[Hooligan69]

We can talk about rebellion all day long, but if we fail to organize we'll waste our lives on protest songs.

[billyfly]

All I got is a guitar, 3 chords and the truth.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Oh my! Yes, yes, yes. That really should have happened!


they had to honor the 86 world cup team :{ sorry TFC D Day vets first.
back to the protest it was very well done and handled by the RPB executive, just finished putting in on to dvd, and the fans got their message out ...lets hope another protest will not be needed.

[Sparta]

Is there talks happening about next games course of action? If so, how can I get into those

[Sparta]

they had to honor the 86 world cup team :{ sorry TFC D Day vets first.
back to the protest it was very well done and handled by the RPB executive, just finished putting in on to dvd, and the fans got their message out ...lets hope another protest will not be needed.


My opinion, it is definately needed

[ExiledRed]

The draft? Hometown all-star returns home (DeRo)? Obstacles are obvious, getting it done is Mo's responsibility. He gets paid the big bucks, let him figure it out. The point is that a young striker is what we need. Dichio is getting older, Barrett sucks and Vitti is not coming back next year.


Shit hot young strikers superior or equal to a DP in skill aren't going to be
available in the draft. We might draft them, but they won't sign if they're really destined for greater things. Getting a top MLS quality striker in the draft is hardly something 'you can just do' either, you get one shot every year, and expansion teams get first pick.



More money does mean better players. Most of the revenue from transferring players goes directly to purchasing better players.

There is a difference between allocation acquired through selling off good players, and revenue. One requires we lose a good player, the other requires the fans spend money. More revenue does not mean better players, because as I've pointed out, the league pays the salary. More allocation money does not mean better players either, especially if you have trade one away to receive it. If you hadn't noticed, Mo piled up the allocation cash in season one.

[BayernTFC]

Not really the attention intended? The G&M had a more balanced article today by Paul Attfield (p. S7)
I don't get the Globe & Mail but, if the article gets put up on their website, then I will definitely read it. Not everyone is as unsympathetic as Ryan Johnston. Gareth Wheeler seems to understand the supporters:

Obviously, the complaints aren't about the opponent. There is no way previous international opponents such as Pachuca, Independiente, or Aston Villa can compete with the prestige and draw of Real Madrid.
The anger is coming from season-ticket holders who feel they have been duped. Each year, a game featuring an international opponent has been included in season ticket's packages.


Above all, it's a dangerous game for Maple Leaf Sports and Entertainment Ltd., to play with the hearts and minds of its most diehard fans. The club and its supporters have prided themselves on being a grassroots, ground-up organization. The franchise has consistently been advertised as a team with soul in an era of professional sports with very little.
If TFC wants to remain the club with soul, it will change its approach.

http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Soccer/TorontoFC/2009/05/30/9624526-sun.html

[Tezza]

Same old shit 3 years later. Usector and Red Patch leaders can't let go of petty squabbles and personal agendas. Truth be told I don't think either group has the ability to organize a mass acceptance from their members to do anything. I've met members of both that aren't fully sold on why they belong to the groups.

I applaud NEE for organizing a mass walk-out like last game even if I don't agree with the method of protesting.

Everybody else sees that the groups could have a much stronger influence if they were united but sadly that isn't likely to ever happen.

[Sparta]

I say we focus on one protest -- i think the one that relates to all is GRASS

Players dont like playing here because of plastic grass, so this relates (MAYBE) to the lack of DP

OUR LOSING -- We could be potentially losing because of the lack of DP or potential it can do for us

We are upset at that grass is being used for RM and not our team on a regular basis (players are also upset at this)

So lets get this point out first - IMO

[Phil]

I don't get the Globe & Mail but, if the article gets put up on their website, then I will definitely read it. Not everyone is as unsympathetic as Ryan Johnston. Gareth Wheeler seems to understand the supporters:


http://slam.canoe.ca/Slam/Soccer/TorontoFC/2009/05/30/9624526-sun.html

News thread has a daily roundup of the stuff:

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=14253

[Pookie]

If I was a shareholder in MLSE (which is impossible since they are a private company) I'd love the job the TFC FO are doing. .

I think this is a false assumption.

As a shareholder, you want to increase the value of the franchise and do so by increasing the revenue the team generates and the value of its assets.

Revenue is not being maximized:

- while costs have remained constant, they have yet to qualify for MLS home playoff dates and are in danger of missing for the 3rd straight year
- they have yet to qualify for additional home CONCACAF dates which only required the team to beat 2 USL teams

If you assume that grass is part of future, here too you'd be upset as a shareholder.

- the City and MLSE split revenues for events hosted at BMO. We lost a World Cup Qualifier last year to Saputo Field because it had grass. How many other events have they missed out on?
- Beyond that, they will have competition on the grass front. Vancouver is coming. Montreal could be expanded if they ever receive an MLS team. Ottawa's bid included real grass. Toronto quickly becomes 4th on the depth chart for big ticket international/national events. That doesn't bode well for my long term portfolio

As a shareholder, I'd also be pissed that $250k is being invested for a surface that will satisfy a one time event while the board will later be asked for approval to spend upwards of $2-5M on a permanent solution.

What's worse is that until grass becomes permanent, $250k will have to be spent on a temporary surface each and every time to attract teams of similar quality. As a shareholder, I have to assume that RM is a profit maker. You don't want this to be a one time thing.

If this happened 5 times between a temporary and permanent solution, I will have invested between 10-50% of the cost of the installation without anything to show for it. It is profit being flushed down the drain.

[BayernTFC]

News thread has a daily roundup of the stuff:

http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=14253

Thank you kindly RooneyRPB. And there I was scouring the internet like a sucker. It was a good article.

one section chose to unfurl a banner that read: 4 Teams, 0 Titles
Classic! :lol:

[CretanBull]

But, but, Real Madrid! Money grubbing. Bastards. Could someone articulate to me why MLSE shouldn’t be allowed to make money? Also, since it’s going to cost about $1.5 - $2 million just to stage the damn game, I’d be curious to know how much money you think the club is actually going to make off of it. Lastly, can you honestly say that if you were in a position of management at TFC that you would turn down the opportunity to bring Real Madrid in? Really? Really, really?



We'll put arguements about money aside for now, although we can return to them later when the ticket prices are released (as another aside, I think the numbers from your blog entry on the issue are off) .



We can revisit this now, but I suspect we don't need to. Plugging an average ticket price of about $160 and using your estimates from your blog entry, we're looking at:

$3.2 million at the gate
+300k food/beer/merch
-$1 million for Real Madrid
-$250k for grass
-$200k for opperating cost

= $2,050,000

A far cry more than the $500k you projected the club to make.

[SweetOwnGoal]

wow... not only are you going to talk about something you don't understand... but you still have the audacity to plug your show on our boards... wonderful.

Don't eat yellow snow.

[Pookie]

^ half of which goes to the City.

Think RM settled for $1M? That's the one variable that I would question.

[CretanBull]

^ half of which goes to the City.

Think RM settled for $1M? That's the one variable that I would question.

$1M to fly from Boston to Toronto? I think that's a reasonable number.

[CretanBull]

^ half of which goes to the City.


????

[wzhxvy]

I do have to say, I respected the actions by NEE on the weekend and the great show by the people who attended this protest. This discussion has elightened me and I have a ton of respect for the NEE guys, more than I ever did (because of lack of knowledge more than anything else).

[C.Ronaldo]

as an indirect shareholder of MLSE - teachers pension fund

MLSE's moves appauls me.

The sport nor the league is ever going to grow with a mentality like this.

and this is all short term bullshit that will fill the bonus's of the current F.O, that will not build a foundation for the future

[Pookie]

????

The agreement between the City and MLSE is that they split profits down the middle.

So if you are projecting a $2M profit, half of that goes to the city.

[CretanBull]

The agreement between the City and MLSE is that they split profits down the middle.

So if you are projecting a $2M profit, half of that goes to the city.

They split the opperating profits from the building (ie parking, rent charged to vendors etc.) not all all revenues.

[FluSH]

Don't eat yellow snow.

Don't eat brown snow either..

[DOMIN8R]

^^^^ FFS can we dial it back a few notches?

[Pookie]

They split the opperating profits from the building (ie parking, rent charged to vendors etc.) not all all revenues.

Operating profit is a function of what is left from total revenues after all expenses have been paid.

It isn't exclusive of gate receipts, it includes that.

The City of Toronto has a pretty good breakdown of the revenue generated by the facility (and TFC) in it's first few months (note that TFC Tickets are included in the calculation):

http://wx.toronto.ca/inter/it/newsrel.nsf/0/e5c68d1b6129e3038525740500793be0?OpenDocument

[CretanBull]

The article mentions that TFC games were sold out, but it doesn't include them in any calculations.

"The facility welcomed close to 500,000 guests at 30 events during its inaugural season"

At $30 a seat, that's $15 million dollars. You're not suggesting that all expenses totalled $14.1 million and the city and MLSE split the remaining $900k are you?

[ExiledRed]

Operating profit is a function of what is left from total revenues after all expenses have been paid.

It isn't exclusive of gate receipts, it includes that.

The City of Toronto has a pretty good breakdown of the revenue generated by the facility (and TFC) in it's first few months (note that TFC Tickets are included in the calculation):

http://wx.toronto.ca/inter/it/newsrel.nsf/0/e5c68d1b6129e3038525740500793be0?OpenDocument

This was discussed in '08, and I'm pretty sure it was apparrent that the city does not get half of TFC's ticket profits. If it did, we might have a better voice, given we'd be the city's customers as well.

Also, I don't think we'd have any hope if we were making less than the salary cap every year.

[CretanBull]

^ I'm 99% sure that the "operating profits" come from the profits that the building itself generates - ie the parking lot, selling floor-space to venders etc. and not from any of the events held there.

[FluSH]

^^^^ FFS can we dial it back a few notches?

What do you want me to do... I leave and comeback 2hrs later to find no answer to my questions but some stupid shit...

[Pookie]

The article mentions that TFC games were sold out, but it doesn't include them in any calculations.

"The facility welcomed close to 500,000 guests at 30 events during its inaugural season"

At $30 a seat, that's $15 million dollars. You're not suggesting that all expenses totalled $14.1 million and the city and MLSE split the remaining $900k are you?


Operating Income = Revenue - Expenses

Forbes indicated Toronto FC had revenue of $17M and an operating income of $2.1M. I have no idea what expenses would total $14.9M but apparently they did.

The City doesn't get a direct share of ticket prices, they get half of what's left after expenses are deducted.

[SweetOwnGoal]

What do you want me to do... I leave and comeback 2hrs later to find no answer to my questions but some stupid shit...

What you did was insult me and question my motivations for posting here. Since you don't seem willing to actually listen to counter arguments to your position, I posted nonsense rather than telling you off.

[Roogsy]

Ok Flush and SOG have had their say. Let's move on.

[elvis]

<insert crickets here>

[Ageroo]

<insert crickets here>

ha ha ha.......that actually is the funniest thing I have heard all day.....and thanks! :)

[Cambridge_Red]

Be sure to check out the next episode

[CretanBull]

Operating Income = Revenue - Expenses

Forbes indicated Toronto FC had revenue of $17M and an operating income of $2.1M. I have no idea what expenses would total $14.9M but apparently they did.

The City doesn't get a direct share of ticket prices, they get half of what's left after expenses are deducted.

Just had it confirmed from someone who's involved in the deal....the city gets a share from parking, vendor liciences, rent (from the
'community use') but nothing to do with TFC.

[ExiledRed]

Just had it confirmed from someone who's involved in the deal....the city gets a share from parking, vendor liciences, rent (from the
'community use') but nothing to do with TFC.

Because like I said, if the city did get a share, we'd have grass in 2007.

[TFCinVANCOUVER]

as an indirect shareholder of MLSE - teachers pension fund

MLSE's moves appauls me.

The sport nor the league is ever going to grow with a mentality like this.

and this is all short term bullshit that will fill the bonus's of the current F.O, that will not build a foundation for the future




We should just organize a rally and protest in different parts of the city!!
Durham RPB should protest in Pickering or Oshawa
Scarborough RPB should protest on Kennedy RD
One in Woodbridge
One in Sauga,Brampton,Oakville,Ajax,Unionville,Fukk do one in Regent Park
And all the rest should protest in there area all at the same time, heck the leafs fans will join as well.
Then City TV will be out along with TSN,Sportsnet,The Score and all the other media outlets.
This to me will bring awareness to the situation.
As long as it's peacefull!

Front page of the Sun my friends! Then we demand Richard Peddie to comment on the situation!

[Hooligan69]

We should just organize a rally and protest in different parts of the city!!
Durham RPB should protest in Pickering or Oshawa
Scarborough RPB should protest on Kennedy RD
One in Woodbridge
One in Sauga,Brampton,Oakville,Ajax,Unionville,Fukk do one in Regent Park
And all the rest should protest in there area all at the same time, heck the leafs fans will join as well.
Then City TV will be out along with TSN,Sportsnet,The Score and all the other media outlets.
This to me will bring awareness to the situation.
As long as it's peacefull!

Front page of the Sun my friends! Then we demand Richard Peddie to comment on the situation!

Let's rush the Gardiner Expressway and block traffic for a few hours.

:lol:

[Pookie]

What could be effective would be to find out the day that they are removing the temporary surface (assuming they do) and stage a sit down.

Block the workers, trucks, etc... peacefully for a period of time.

Organize it based on the potential lost revenue for the city and that as a taxpayer, you won't stand for it.

- Lost revenue includes missed playoff dates
- Missed opportunity to become the "National Soccer Stadium"
- Ability to host money maker events like Real Madrid on an annual basis

Come prepared with your economic arguments. Come with media. Come with your local city counsellor.

You have until Aug 7th to get them onside.

A protest like that would serve 2 purposes. One, it has nothing to do with the boys on the field.

Two, it elevates the issue beyond a "bunch of soccer nuts" to something that the public cares about... wasted $$$.

[mclaren]

""People should just relax a bit", Tom Anselmi.

[Hooligan69]

""People should just relax a bit", Tom Anselmi.

LOL :rofl:

[Pookie]

Just had it confirmed from someone who's involved in the deal....the city gets a share from parking, vendor liciences, rent (from the
'community use') but nothing to do with TFC.

I think there is more to it than that. If you look through the City of Toronto's budget http://www.toronto.ca/budget2008/pdf/op08_an_ex.pdf

It states:

National Soccer Stadium (BMO Field) is home to Toronto FC and the Canadian National Teams. The facility provides a venue for soccer matches, community use, corporate functions, private parties and concerts ($7.468 million gross with an operating surplus of $0.05M net).

To gross $7.468 million that's a hell of a lot of parking.

[RedMAN127]

I think there is more to it than that. If you look through the City of Toronto's budget http://www.toronto.ca/budget2008/pdf/op08_an_ex.pdf

It states:

National Soccer Stadium (BMO Field) is home to Toronto FC and the Canadian National Teams. The facility provides a venue for soccer matches, community use, corporate functions, private parties and concerts ($7.468 million gross with an operating surplus of $0.05M net).

To gross $7.468 million that's a hell of a lot of parking.

at $12.5 a beer thats 30,000 per game or so

[Pigfynn]

""People should just relax a bit", Tom Anselmi.

That guy is a smug fucking douche and he should STFU.

















...just saying

[Roogsy]

""People should just relax a bit", Tom Anselmi.

Sure...when you're making 7 figures and don't really care about the team so long as it's making money...it's easy to relax!

[RedMAN127]

just a few thoughts ...

If the protests are directed at the meaningless friendlies -not the extra cost of RM- then should something be done for the River Plate game .. maybe and organised donation of tickets to charity (available through SSH ticket exchange) as this would generate more positive attention for the issue.

If the issue is the moved league game, should there not be some sort of action Saturday? I think organising a boycott of concessions is probably the going to be most noticible by MLSE and the City as this is where a bulk of the revenue is generated (moreso than any of the other franchises) and could probably be agreed upon by most SG's, and unaffiliates.

If the issue was just a lot of pent-up frustration with the shite performance, then I am not sure more needs to be done ...