Are TFC Really That Much More likely to Commit a PK Offense?

[Flashman]

2007 F A
1 TOR 1 8
2 KC 3 7
3 CHI 4 6
4 RSL 6 6
5 NY 6 5
6 LA 7 5
7 CHV 3 3
8 CLB 3 3
9 HOU 3 3
10 NE 4 3
11 DAL 5 3
12 DC 7 3
13 COL 5 2

2008 F A
1 TOR 3 7
2 SJ 1 5
3 CLB 5 5
4 COL 7 5
5 CHV 1 4
6 NE 2 4
7 RSL 2 4
8 LA 4 4
9 NY 3 3
10 KC 4 3
11 DAL 4 2
12 CHI 3 1
13 HOU 4 1
14 DC 5 0

2009 F A
1 TOR 1 3
2 NY 0 2
3 DAL 1 2
4 LA 3 2
5 HOU 0 1
6 CHI 1 1
7 COL 1 1
8 KC 1 1
9 RSL 1 1
10 DC 2 1
11 CLB 1 0
12 SJ 1 0
13 NE 2 0
14 CHV 0 0
15 SEA 0 0

Why do we get so many more PKs called against us, while being among the lowest in PKs received?

Is it bad coaching? It really doesn't help that we have only received 5 PKs in 2 and a half years, and we have only converted one of them (Ahhh, makes you wish the Pieman was back :))

[trane]

Three reasons. One MLS refs are shite. Two MLS refs have a bias against us, for many reason. Three our players (Wynne/Harmse prime examples) are careless in the box.

[elvis]

Fourth reason - MLS refs are shite.

[Hitcho]

I hate the term "PK". It's up there with having a clock that counts down for me in terms of irritating US deformities thrust on the beautiful game.

In answer to the question, I don't think there's anything really in this. Probably a combination of the way we've sat too deep when defending a one goal lead, some bad refereeing decisions and some bad luck. Having a DCM out of position at CB wasn't a great idea either.

[TorontoBlades]

I bet the spread is even more worrisome at BMO

[rocker]

2007 1 for (successful), 8 against
57PK in league, 8 against TFC (14% of all pk; TFC was 1 of 13 teams, or 7.6%)

04/14/2007 NE 4 vs TOR 0 Shalrie Joseph Greg Sutton G 60
05/19/2007 DC 2 at TOR 1 Jaime Moreno Greg Sutton G 79, (Wynne)
07/04/2007 RSL 1 vs TOR 2 Alecko Eskandarian Sam Reynolds G 45 (Brennan/Robinson)
07/07/2007 CHI 1 vs TOR 1 Chad Barrett Srdjan Djekanovic G 70 (Marshall)
09/08/2007 DAL 2 vs TOR 0 Denilson Kenny Stamatopoulos G 36 (Marshall)
09/08/2007 DAL 2 vs TOR 0 Abe Thompson Kenny Stamatopoulos G 87 (Melo)
10/07/2007 COL 1 vs TOR 0 Jovan Kirovski Kenny Stamatopoulos G 43 (Pozniak)
10/13/2007 LA 2 vs TOR 1 Landon Donovan Kenny Stamatopoulos G 56 (Reda)

------------------------------------------------

2008, 3 for (all unsuccessful) , 6 against
(12.5% of league total, TFC was 1 of 14 teams or 7.1% of league)
48 PK in league, 6 against TFC

05/24/2008 DC 3 vs TOR 2 Jaime Moreno Greg Sutton G 70 (Wynne)
08/03/2008 DAL 2 at TOR 0 Kenny Cooper Greg Sutton G 81 (Guevara)
09/13/2008 CLB 1 at TOR 1 Alejandro Moreno Greg Sutton S 12 (Wynne)
09/20/2008 KC 2 vs TOR 0 Jack Jewsbury Greg Sutton G 63 (Marshall)
10/11/2008 DAL 2 vs TOR 2 Kenny Cooper Greg Sutton G 93+ (James)
10/25/2008 SJ 2 vs TOR 0 Shea Salinas Greg Sutton G 91+ (Harmse)

----------------------------------

2009, 1 for (unsuccessful), 3 against (as of 5/9)
14 PK in league, 3 against TFC
(21% of total, TFC is one of 15 teams or 6.7% of league)

03/28/2009 CLB 1 vs TOR 1 Guillermo Barros Sch Stefan Frei G 30 (Harmse)
04/19/2009 DAL 3 vs TOR 2 Kenny Cooper Stefan Frei G 84 (Wynne)
05/09/2009 DC 3 vs TOR 3 Jaime Moreno Stefan Frei G 92+ (Wynne)

[TorontoBlades]

I just knew it would be favorable for the Galaxy

[Don Julio]

I would say that 2007 and most of 2008 can be chalked up to the lack of quality players, and consistent set of defenders that are used to playing with each other. 2008 was further exacerbated by a head coach that verbally attacked the referee non-stop.

2009 seems a bit out of whack so far, but I think we've just been a bit unlucky with Wynne's flapping arms.

[Don Julio]

I just knew it would be favorable for the Galaxy

To be fair, that could well be because they don't actually defend at all in the box.

[TorontoBlades]

...and the lack of calling the opposing teams flapping arms ;)

[Flashman]

2008, 3 for (all unsuccessful) , 6 against
(12.5% of league total, TFC was 1 of 14 teams or 7.1% of league)
48 PK in league, 6 against TFC

05/24/2008 DC 3 vs TOR 2 Jaime Moreno Greg Sutton G 70 (Wynne)
08/03/2008 DAL 2 at TOR 0 Kenny Cooper Greg Sutton G 81 (Guevara)
09/13/2008 CLB 1 at TOR 1 Alejandro Moreno Greg Sutton S 12 (Wynne)
09/20/2008 KC 2 vs TOR 0 Jack Jewsbury Greg Sutton G 63 (Marshall)
10/11/2008 DAL 2 vs TOR 2 Kenny Cooper Greg Sutton G 93+ (James)
10/25/2008 SJ 2 vs TOR 0 Shea Salinas Greg Sutton G 91+ (Harmse)



Good summary, but you missed:
4/13/2008 LA2vsTOR3Landon DonovanGreg SuttonG58


That would make 3 for (all unsuccessful), 7 against (14.6% of league total, TFC was 1 of 14 teams or 7.1% of league)

[Keyman]

Your reason:
Adam Braz, Marco Reda, Marco Velez, Kevin Harmse, Marvell Wynne...Self-explanitory.

[Flashman]

Your reason:
Adam Braz, Marco Reda, Marco Velez, Kevin Harmse, Marvell Wynne...Self-explanitory.

I don't buy it....other teams have sloppy defenders as well...the salary cap almost ensures that all teams have second tier defenders (ie. Boyens, Goldthwaite etc.).

While we were a new team in 2007, other teams have also not had a lot of time playing together (ie. SJ, Seattle) and yet we continue to have more penalties called against us.

BTW, I know we had one called against us against the Whitecraps last year...was that the only called penalty this year and last in the Canadian Championship?

[sulfur]

04/14/2007 NE 4 vs TOR 0 Shalrie Joseph Greg Sutton G 60
04/13/2008 LA 2 vs TOR 3 Landon Donovan Greg Sutton G 58
07/01/2008 TOR 0 vs VAN 1 Martin Nash Greg Sutton G 36
Any idea who/what was at the root cause of these 3?

To followup:

Andrew Boyens, Marco Velez, Jim Brennan. In that order.

[sulfur]

BTW, I know we had one called against us against the Whitecraps last year...was that the only called penalty this year and last in the Canadian Championship?
To this point, yes.

[olegunnar]

Any idea who/what was at the root cause of these 3?

I'm not 100% certain but I think the NER one was a Marco Reda special.

The LAG one is the famous Velez...I'm going to head this...oh but it's dipping...I'm still committed to heading this!...faceplant penalty

The Van one was the Brennan pulling down Jeff Clarke on a corner.

[Pachuco]

Well I'll say this. We've ended up in last place twice in 2 years. Last place teams typically commit more fouls. Mostly because they can't catch up to the pace and skill of players on the other team. There was a great article discussing and proving this when the Eduardo (Arsenal) injury went down. I'll see if I can find it. It basically showed that the teams with the highest number of fouls were typically the less skilled, lower standings teams. It talked about how dangerous it is to have such a gap in skill from bottom to top of the league.

[Toronto Gunner]

Another reason - MLS refs are shite.

Wait, was this mentioned? Either way, it warrants mentioning again!

[Darlofletch]

Wow, our goalies apparently suck at penalties.

Djekanovic even let Chad Barrett score. Chad Barrett!!!!

[Flashman]

Well I'll say this. We've ended up in last place twice in 2 years. Last place teams typically commit more fouls. Mostly because they can't catch up to the pace and skill of players on the other team. There was a great article discussing and proving this when the Eduardo (Arsenal) injury went down. I'll see if I can find it. It basically showed that the teams with the highest number of fouls were typically the less skilled, lower standings teams. It talked about how dangerous it is to have such a gap in skill from bottom to top of the league.

Umm, we finished 12th of 14 teams in 2008, and both teams that finished below us (LA 4, SJ 5) didn't have as many penalties called on them as we did.

[TFC USA]

And apparently we suck at taking penalties. 1 of 5? Come on.

[Pachuco]

Umm, we finished 12th of 14 teams in 2008, and both teams that finished below us (LA 4, SJ 5) didn't have as many penalties called on them as we did.

It's not a science, it's a pattern. It's an observation made in another league and you'll need alot more datapoints then that to prove/disprove the theory. I could tell you to look at 2007 and that would prove the theory to be correct, but that's not enough datapoints either. All I'm saying is I remember seeing an article where they actually broke it down over a much longer period of time and you could definately see the trend.

Anyways, you all can carry on with the conspiracy theories, to this day, I don't remember seeing a penalty called on us that I disagreed with.

[Carts]

Wow, our goalies apparently suck at penalties.


You think our goalies suck? How about our strikers...???

In 3-years we've had 5-penalties and scored, wait for it, 1-GOAL!

OUCH!!!

I wonder if we've even hit the net on 50% of those...

1-goal on 5-penalties is worse than an EPIC FAIL!!!

Carts...

[maninb]

There's absolutely a predjudice against TFC...almost all the refs are American...I'll wager when Vancouver gets in, TFC and Vancouver will be #1 & #2 in penalties against for quite some time....

[Darlofletch]

You think our goalies suck? How about our strikers...???

In 3-years we've had 5-penalties and scored, wait for it, 1-GOAL!

OUCH!!!

I wonder if we've even hit the net on 50% of those...

1-goal on 5-penalties is worse than an EPIC FAIL!!!

Carts...

all 3 of the 2008 misses were saved by the goalie. Samuel just stood there and waited too long and got beat to the rebound. Guevara got beat to the rebound by a player who'd illegally ran in to the box before he kicked it, and ricketts' shoes did actually knock his rebound in.

De Ro this year is the only one who fully missed.

either way though, i really hope we don't get in to a penalty shootout any time soon.

[jloome]

There's a prejudice against the home team in MLS anywhere that there's a loud and aggressive fan base. It's the old problem of refs overcompensating to demonstrate they aren't biased despite massive supporter showing.

[TorontoBlades]

There's absolutely a predjudice against TFC...almost all the refs are American...I'll wager when Vancouver gets in, TFC and Vancouver will be #1 & #2 in penalties against for quite some time....

and the refs that are Canadian are being too "Canadian" to make a call for a home side against an American opponent

[Darlofletch]

There's a prejudice against the home team in MLS anywhere that there's a loud and aggressive fan base. It's the old problem of refs overcompensating to demonstrate they aren't biased despite massive supporter showing.

So what you're saying is that supporters standing/bouncing/chanting etc are actually hurting the team.

South end? you're all bastards the lot of you. Ruining it for those of us who want to help the team by sitting quietly in the west stand.:D

[Carts]

either way though, i really hope we don't get in to a penalty shootout any time soon.

QFT!

And if we win the CC and head into Concacaf, it could happen...

While we're on this topic, how many penalties did we put in when we lost the match to Pachuco in penalties...?

Carts...

[DangerRed]

Do you ever watch after stoppage of play to see how TFC players react?

I've seen Chad Barrett tell two different refs to "f*** off" and Amado Guevara flipped one off this past weekend (without using the middle finger, but an equally rude gesture). Then a few weeks back, (I think) Robo could be seen telling the ref to watch where the hell he was going after the ball hit him during play.

Now, I'll be the first to say that MLS refs are shit. But you have to question the wisdom of having players get so mouthy when you're getting a lot of calls going against you.

As someone's sig says: "when you're good enough, the refs don't matter."

[sulfur]

either way though, i really hope we don't get in to a penalty shootout any time soon.
Oddly, we're quite good at those...


While we're on this topic, how many penalties did we put in when we lost the match to Pachuco in penalties...?
We scored three (Ricketts, Robert, and Jarrod Smith), missed two (Brennan - high, Harmse - crossbar), and their GK saved 1 (Cunningham).

On the other side, Edwards let 4 by, and outright saved 2.

[Darlofletch]

Oddly, we're quite good at those...


We scored three (Ricketts, Robert, and Jarrod Smith), missed two (Brennan - high, Harmse - crossbar), and their GK saved 1 (Cunningham).

On the other side, Edwards let 4 by, and outright saved 2.

3 out of 6 still really isn't all that good.

[sulfur]

The worst part is... 2 of those three goals are no longer with the team. :)

But 3/6 is far better than 1/5.

[sulfur]

Some further curiosity...

at least we're ahead on own goals!

3 goals for us:

Oct 4, 2007 -- Chris Leitch scored for the Red Bulls... er... against them :)
June 28, 2008 -- Shalrie Joseph scored our first goal against his Revolution.
And earlier this season, March 28, 2009, Gino Padula tied us up against the Crew.

On the other side of the fence, we can only claim two into our own net:
May 19, 2007 -- Kevin Goldthwaite gave DC United the win
September 27, 2008 -- Hunter Freeman looped a beauty header to give the Dynamo the draw.

[ExiledRed]

Anyways, you all can carry on with the conspiracy theories, to this day, I don't remember seeing a penalty called on us that I disagreed with.

It's not entirely about calls against, the problem is we don't get calls for.

You can't tell me that you've never seen a foul committed in the opposition box that should have been called a penalty but wasn't.

The ref's are usually strict on our fouls in the box, yet unusually lenient when it goes the other way.

[maninb]

There's a prejudice against the home team in MLS anywhere that there's a loud and aggressive fan base. It's the old problem of refs overcompensating to demonstrate they aren't biased despite massive supporter showing.

How can you say that? LOL! DC has perhaps the LOUDEST fans in the league and yet they have the LEAST penalties called against them...Kinda defeats your theory there mate!

[jloome]

How can you say that? LOL! DC has perhaps the LOUDEST fans in the league and yet they have the LEAST penalties called against them...Kinda defeats your theory there mate!

Maybe. But DC's fans cheer in a converted stadium, and are frequently 100 yards or more from the field. They can cheer as loud as shit, but unless you're in the stands, you can't hear them nearly as well as at BM0. And I watch pretty much every MLS game, every week: you can easily hear what Toronto fans are singing on TFC and chanting, you can't hear nearly as much from DC, and that's with the crowds mic'd.

[KRO]

Some further curiosity...

at least we're ahead on own goals!

3 goals for us:

Oct 4, 2007 -- Chris Leitch scored for the Red Bulls... er... against them :)
June 28, 2008 -- Shalrie Joseph scored our first goal against his Revolution.
And earlier this season, March 28, 2009, Gino Padula tied us up against the Crew.

On the other side of the fence, we can only claim two into our own net:
May 19, 2007 -- Kevin Goldthwaite gave DC United the win
September 27, 2008 -- Hunter Freeman looped a beauty header to give the Dynamo the draw.
To be pedantic and totally off topic - that Padula OG should have been credited to Hesmer. Padula caused it but he only hit the bar. The ball went in the net off Hesmer.

[trane]

It's not entirely about calls against, the problem is we don't get calls for.

You can't tell me that you've never seen a foul committed in the opposition box that should have been called a penalty but wasn't.

The ref's are usually strict on our fouls in the box, yet unusually lenient when it goes the other way.

Agreed. Danny in particullar gets muged routenly but the refs allow them to get away with it.

[maninb]

Maybe. But DC's fans cheer in a converted stadium, and are frequently 100 yards or more from the field. They can cheer as loud as shit, but unless you're in the stands, you can't hear them nearly as well as at BM0. And I watch pretty much every MLS game, every week: you can easily hear what Toronto fans are singing on TFC and chanting, you can't hear nearly as much from DC, and that's with the crowds mic'd.


I'm still not convinced and another thing is since we have only a few Latinos, we'll continually get screwed by Latino referees when we're playing a mostly Latino team like many American MLS teams are...It's basically like the CNMT playing in Central America, and they usually get a Latino referee....GAME OVER!

[sulfur]

To be pedantic and totally off topic - that Padula OG should have been credited to Hesmer. Padula caused it but he only hit the bar. The ball went in the net off Hesmer.
Having said that, the only time a GK is credited with an OG is when he either throws it or clears it into his own net. If it hits him, even if it's in the back and then goes in, the person who struck it gets the credit.

After all, GKs get enough of a bad rap already most of the time :)