Penalty Shot

[sampace]

Although I feel the hand ball was correctly called, it does raise the question, which I think the other poster is worth investigating. What is the official MLS rule on hand ball.

I assume a hand ball in the box is a penalty shot period. Deliberate can lead to either a red card or yellow card depending on the severity? Intentional hand ball is a yellow card? Does someone know if it is a yellow or is it a red card?

I remember watching the Italian goalkeeper in the US World Cup match against Ireland get a red card as he touched the ball outside of his box. So I'm not sure what determines a red card vs yellow card on a hand ball violation.

Which then raises the question I'd like input on, whether or not we have been burned by this type of call should the refs try to determine intent or not, and then assess if it should be a penalty shot or not? Do you want to see that kind of flexibility where the rules are changed to say a innocent hand ball in the box is not a penalty shot or card? I think the refs have a hard enough time calling the game and adding that into the rule book would make it even harder for them.

I'd like to hear some input, maybe someone has the rulebook handy and can quote the MLS rule on handball violations, and whether or not it spells out when it is a red card, or a yellow card.

:flare:

[Yohan]

I assume a hand ball in the box is a penalty shot period. Deliberate can lead to either a red card or yellow card depending on the severity? Intentional hand ball is a yellow card? Does someone know if it is a yellow or is it a red card?

I remember watching the Italian goalkeeper in the US World Cup match against Ireland get a red card as he touched the ball outside of his box. So I'm not sure what determines a red card vs yellow card on a hand ball violation.


If it's a handball to deliberately screw a clear scoring chance, it's a red card

[Dirk Diggler]

And before anyone starts calling MLS refs shit ... watch the Blackburn - Portsmouth game from yesterday. Penalties called for similar handballs under similar circumstances.

[InTheCrowd]

Don't even talk. Nobody's worse than the Vancouver referee. :D

[AL-MO]

There is no 'Official MLS Rule on Hand Ball'. It is covered in FIFA laws of the game.

[ensco]

Although some people seem to think it, I don't believe there's some sort of different standard for anything in MLS. The refs here just aren't as good they they are in the big Euro leagues. Looks like Norway may have the same problem!

The Wynne play in Dallas was very similar to the Pique non-call at Chelsea. The right call in both cases was "penalty": the hand is out from the body, the play is not in heavy traffic, and the defender's arm extension is making the player "bigger".

Having space around you is key to the decision - this is why "penalty" wasn't given on Velez' hand ball in extra time vs KC, he was in very close quarters with 2-3 other players.

No point even discussing the Wynne call last night. Bad luck, because he was turning around. An incredibly obvious penalty.

[werewolf]

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/federation/81/42/36/lotg_en.pdf

Page 35




A direct free kick is also awarded to the opposing team if a player
commits any of the following three offences:
....


handles the ball deliberately (except for the goalkeeper within his
own penalty area)

The ball clearly hit his hand, but it was clearly not deliberate.

[AL-MO]

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/federation/81/42/36/lotg_en.pdf

Page 35

The ball clearly hit his hand, but it was clearly not deliberate.

But most referees consider a hand/arm in an unnatural position to be 'deliberate'.

[werewolf]

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/federation/81/42/36/lotg_en.pdf



A player, substitute or substituted player is sent off if he commits any
of the following seven offences:
....


denying the opposing team a goal or an obvious goal-scoring
opportunity by deliberately handling the ball (this does not apply
to a goalkeeper within his own penalty area)



if in the opinion of the official, it was a deliberate hand-ball, why was Wynne not sent off?

[TFCmatty]

The offense known as “handling the ball” involves deliberate contact with the ball by a player’s hand or arm
(including fingertips, or outer shoulder). “Deliberate contact” means that the player could have avoided the touch
but chose not to, that the player’s arms were not in a normal playing position at the time, or that the player
deliberately continued an initially accidental contact for the purpose of gaining an unfair advantage. Moving hands
or arms instinctively to protect the body when suddenly faced with a fast approaching ball does not constitute
deliberate contact unless there is subsequent action to direct the ball once contact is made. Likewise, placing hands
or arms to protect the body at a free kick or similar restart is not likely to produce an infringement unless there is
subsequent action to direct or control the ball. The fact that a player may benefit from the ball contacting the hand
does not transform the otherwise accidental event into an infringement [emphasis added]. A player infringes the Law
regarding handling the ball even if direct contact is avoided by holding something in the hand (clothing, shinguard,
etc.).

[InTheCrowd]

Wynne was pulling his hand away at the time. It doesn't matter, the result won't change regardless of what we say.

[cy43]

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/federation/81/42/36/lotg_en.pdf



if in the opinion of the official, it was a deliberate hand-ball, why was Wynne not sent off?

B/c he didn't deny a clear goal scoring opportunity. If you read further in the Laws of the game it defines a goal scoring opportunity and you bsaically have to be inside 35 yards with no one to beat so last night was not a clear goal scoring opportunity bc there were still defenders and other players etc.

[loyola]

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/federation/81/42/36/lotg_en.pdf



if in the opinion of the official, it was a deliberate hand-ball, why was Wynne not sent off?

On what basis should Wynne be sent off?

If he had handled a ball who was going into the net, he would've been but in that situation there nothing in the rule book that indicates he should've been sent off.

Red cards are for DOGSO. Not for every handball in the box.

[S_D]

Having space around you is key to the decision - this is why "penalty" wasn't given on Velez' hand ball in extra time vs KC, he was in very close quarters with 2-3 other players.


Velez's arms and hands were straight down beside his body and the ball came up and hit his hand. He wasn't even looking at the ball when it hit him. Who knows if this ref would have called it though.

[rocker]

the problem with the whole rule is that there's a helluva lot of subjectivity involved for a call that essentially determines one of the toughest things to accomplish in the game: scoring a goal. goals turn games on their head... but since the deliberateness always seems to be debatable, it comes down to a subjective interpretation ... a subjective interpretation that changes games immediately.

most teams that receive such a call are devastated because it's almost a sure goal. if penalty kicks were 50-50 propositions, the outcry over subjectivity wouldn't be as strong.

[werewolf]

B/c he didn't deny a clear goal scoring opportunity. If you read further in the Laws of the game it defines a goal scoring opportunity and you bsaically have to be inside 35 yards with no one to beat so last night was not a clear goal scoring opportunity bc there were still defenders and other players etc.

Unless its defined in on another document, there is no such distinction made.


Referees should consider the following circumstances when deciding
whether to send off a player for denying a goal or an obvious goalscoring
opportunity:
• the distance between the offence and the goal
• the likelihood of keeping or gaining control of the ball
• the direction of the play
• the location and number of defenders
• the offence which denies an opponent an obvious goal-scoring
opportunity may be an offence that incurs a direct free kick or an
indirect free kick

[Cuz]

Regardless of any handball in the box we fell asleep after taking the lead and got what we deserved for doing so!

[TFC RealDeal RPB]

It was a hand ball and that's all there is to it. our back's need to keep there hand's along there side and not out in the open.

[redcard]

But most referees consider a hand/arm in an unnatural position to be 'deliberate'.

which is why cronin always puts his arms behind his back when he is near his own penalty area...its a coaching point to teach young kids to keep there arms down by there sides or behind them when in and around their own box...cause the ref will call a hand ball.

[Jamaicanadian]

YOU ARE THE REF: 2 Handball incidents for your perusal.......

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/sep/09/youaretheref#

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009/feb/06/youaretheref-djibril-cisse#

[james]

i think wyness hand ball was the right call. I think hes gotta try to run without having his arms moving so wildly.

[BuSaPuNk]

Sure I think it was a call for a hand ball by the rules. But come on, you don't fucking change the outcome of a game unless it's a for sure blantent handball. It wasn't intentional and how much time was left in the game the ref shouldn't have called it. They would never call a fucking penalty shot in the last minute of play in the NHL. It's a fucking joke these refs need to learn when and where to call penalties and fouls.

[Cashcleaner]

http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/federation/81/42/36/lotg_en.pdf

Page 35

The ball clearly hit his hand, but it was clearly not deliberate.

Not only that, he was bringing his arm away to avoid the ball. I don't think there was any deliberation at all from Wynne.

[SanStarko]

Sure I think it was a call for a hand ball by the rules. But come on, you don't fucking change the outcome of a game unless it's a for sure blantent handball. It wasn't intentional and how much time was left in the game the ref shouldn't have called it. They would never call a fucking penalty shot in the last minute of play in the NHL. It's a fucking joke these refs need to learn when and where to call penalties and fouls.

What? You're kidding right? If it's a penalty then it's a penalty. Doesn't matter if it's the 1st minute or the 90th minute. You don't stop giving fouls just because it's late in the game.

Regards the penalty, with the benefit of slow motion replays we can see that Wynne was trying to move his hand away. But the ref doesn't have the option to look at a replay to see that, he has to make a split second decision. At the time, Wynne had his arms out from his body (even though he was trying to being them in), the ball hit his hand and if hadn't then it was going to a DC player behind him. So it's not exactly a surprise that a penalty was given.

[werewolf]

3 matches officiated by Toledo over the past 4 months (in-season) = 3 penalties and a yellow-card for dissent for each, the only card for the infractions themselves was a red card that MLS' own match summary calls "controversial".

He must come from the same officiating school as benito arcuntia.

[Carter]

which is why cronin always puts his arms behind his back when he is near his own penalty area...its a coaching point to teach young kids to keep there arms down by there sides or behind them when in and around their own box...cause the ref will call a hand ball.

Cronin is amazing, he locked his hands behind his back and took that ball in the face like a champ. (kinda reminds me of someone Groove FC vs Club Atlético de Halton (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=11605))

We need more players like him and Robbo.