Onward! - Expanding the Voyageurs Cup

[Ben Knight]

The team that isn't here.

http://onwardsoccer.com/2009/05/05/the-team-that-isnt-here/

[shawn6597]

your head is always in the right place ben

as always a good read. And I agree that the NCC is quickly becoming the highlight of the cdn footy calendar

[denime]

Good read and I agree with you.
There is more than 3 teams in this country that should take place in Voyageurs Cup competition.
It would be a big boost for CSL to allow their Champion to compete with "Big Three" for VC.
Can CSL make a push for this to be implemented,I don't know but I'm convinced they should.

[Nodoubtguy]

always a good read Ben....

[MG42]

great idea, great article.

[Billy the kid]

We've had threads on this before I think. Couldn't you end up with TFC Academy playing in the Voyageurs Cup if they win the CSL? It seems wrong to have a team in the championship that comes out of a league where both Toronto and Montreal's academy teams play.

[Wagner]

i think the whole academy angle counters Ben's argument.
TFC should smoke the Academy.
and the Academy can beat the Eagles.

I don't think it would fly in North America.

[shawn6597]

while its a good idea, i would hate for the tourney to become a farce with 9-0 scorelines or something like that. Thats the only problem i see with allowing a bunch of semi-pro teams.

[Lucky Strike]

We've had threads on this before I think. Couldn't you end up with TFC Academy playing in the Voyageurs Cup if they win the CSL? It seems wrong to have a team in the championship that comes out of a league where both Toronto and Montreal's academy teams play.

I think this is the only sticking point for me. Not so much because (to take this year’s would-be entrant, Serbian White Eagles) come from a league where the TFC and Montreal’s academies play, but more directly because if either of those two academies make it to the Canadian Championship, it seems like it might devalue the tournament. I suppose you could say those two teams are ineligible, but somehow, it doesn’t feel right. I think this question ought to be considered further, but right at this moment, I wouldn’t be opposed to the CSL champion joining. More teams from the PDL or the university system though, I would be dead-set against. I currently can’t imagine anything that would change my mind, but never say never.

[rocker]

until we win this thang, i do not want any fourth team in it. no need to risk our chances.. particularly if we are unlucky and lose to the fourth team, and then Montreal and Vanny grab the 6 points.

selfish, I know... but this tourney is so young. give it 5 years in the current format, then revisit.

[flatpicker]

^^ I too like that concept of this... but the possibility of one of the Big 3 playing their own "farm" team would raise questions of authenticity.

You can't exactly have two teams play each other that are run by the same ownership group.

[Red CB Toronto]

Look at the US Open in the States, it has the MLS, USL-1, USL-2, PDL and then the amateur sides from the USASA. It is a 40 team tourney with the MLS sides entering in the third round. For instances one year Dallas Roma of the USASA knocked off Chivas. I think having a fourth top club in this country would make it easier, where the four would get byes and you could have regional rounds for the CSL, PDL, PCSL and whatever else might be out there.

[Carts]

I tell you what, if the CSL Champ got a spot in the CC, the CSL Championship would take on a whole new meaning...

This would be great foir the CSL, and good for the CC as it expands soccer in Canada...

Great idea Ben...

Carts...

[Fort York Redcoat]

There's an issue here with the CSL vs USL PDL. It's strange to use a league that doesn't cross the border when there's a league dedicated to Player Development that does. Toronto, Ottawa, Thunder Bay, are all in this league but we're thinking about adding the CSL? Odd, no?

[S_D]

As reported on the soccer show when Montopoli (CSA) was asked about entry, CSL teams don't meet CONCACAF minimum requirements to enter the tournament.

[billyfly]

Good idea but ^ is right. Needs to meet CONCACF.

[Yohan]

what is the CONCACAF requirement?

[denime]

what is the CONCACAF requirement?

Very good question,I can guess the answer is :shit load of $$$$ under the table and you are good to go.

Since when CONCRAP has requirements?

[Pachuco]

I don't really agree here, the last thing TFC needs is playing an extra match and against a team that should be far less skilled. What happens naturally when you have such a gap in skills on the pitch? INJURIES!!! That is number 1 symptom of a crappy team playing a good team. The crappy team resorts to hacking and illegal tacling because of frustration. That's the last thing TFC needs during the season.

You can say that we can play the bench for these games, but then we make it possible for the Serbian White Eagles to pull off an upset and to injure our bench.

No thank you. Not a good idea in my mind!

[Detroit_TFC]

what is the CONCACAF requirement?

Yes, I'm curious about that too.

[billyfly]

The requirements are probably nothing in reality but since CSL hasn't "applied" for CONCACAF, they don't meet the criteria.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I don't really agree here, the last thing TFC needs is playing an extra match and against a team that should be far less skilled. What happens naturally when you have such a gap in skills on the pitch? INJURIES!!! That is number 1 symptom of a crappy team playing a good team. The crappy team resorts to hacking and illegal tacling because of frustration. That's the last thing TFC needs during the season.

You can say that we can play the bench for these games, but then we make it possible for the Serbian White Eagles to pull off an upset and to injure our bench.

No thank you. Not a good idea in my mind!

Yeah but what if they can play Barca mid season?;)

[T_Mizz]

You can't exactly have two teams play each other that are run by the same ownership group.
Probably why MLS is so crappy:D
This is all well and good but I don't think that PDL and University teams would be possible as they're not year round, ie the players are all still playing for other teams during the offseason. This shouldn't present a problem (except for the fact that most PDL players are playing for american universities at the time that canadian universities would be able to play, essentially creating a one-or-the-other situation) because these teams should easily be knocked out, but you can't make these teams go into the start of the tourney knowing they're not supposed to or able to compete in later rounds.
Also I can't figure out why everyone is congratulating Ben Knight on this great idea, I've seen this exact idea posted on this board dozens of times. I recycle my recyclables too (congratulate me) but I don't post it in a blog.
Having said that Ben Knight i a great voice of Canadian soccer (even though I might not always agree with him) keep up the good work Mr. Knight.:canada:

[bhoybobby]

That was a good league, i used to play for Toronto Ukraine back when Centennial Stadium was nice. We had some decent crowds

[C.Ronaldo]

mississauga hershey centre has a full size indoor soccer pitch that any team can rent in the even that they need something for the winter months.

has seating for viewing and all.

[Mark in Ottawa]

The Brits manage an FA cup tournament with 750+ teams and we can't get together a tournament for 4??
Pathetic.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Have the CSL teams enter a qualifying tournament, then enter TFC, Caps and Impact at the qtr final stage...so we dont have to pay good money to see the White Eagles,
or Brampton Lions etc till it mattered,

[Red CB Toronto]

Probably why MLS is so crappy:D
This is all well and good but I don't think that PDL and University teams would be possible as they're not year round, ie the players are all still playing for other teams during the offseason. This shouldn't present a problem (except for the fact that most PDL players are playing for american universities at the time that canadian universities would be able to play, essentially creating a one-or-the-other situation) because these teams should easily be knocked out, but you can't make these teams go into the start of the tourney knowing they're not supposed to or able to compete in later rounds.
Also I can't figure out why everyone is congratulating Ben Knight on this great idea, I've seen this exact idea posted on this board dozens of times. I recycle my recyclables too (congratulate me) but I don't post it in a blog.
Having said that Ben Knight i a great voice of Canadian soccer (even though I might not always agree with him) keep up the good work Mr. Knight.:canada:

Eight PDL teams play in the US Open, I think they way you get around the Academy/reserve team issue is you do not let them in. In Germany a first team can not play in the same league as their reserve, so say the club is playing in the second division and their reserve team is in the third, if say 1st team is relegated the reserve are pushed down regardless of their standing.

The MLS had eight US Open spots, even if Toronto finishes in the top six of the standing they can not go.

I think if say made the first round regional by giving the CSL , PDL east PDL west and say the PCSL a spot you could expand this, also it would be up to each league to determine how they are going to hand out their spot, by using their standings or holding a qualifer etc.

[Lucky Strike]

^We should keep in mind that it's entirely possible these teams from the CSL, PDL and other lesser known leagues simply don't have the extra cash to make such a qualifying system plausible. That's why I would prefer just the CSL champions to add to the 3 existing teams, if any expansion is going to go ahead. It's simple, doesn't cost extra money for these small teams and there's extra incentive to win the CSL.

It's a bit strange to say that a team might need extra motivation to be champions but think about it. The CSL champions now win the title and they get a trophy. Now what? They simply defend it the next year. Whereas if they were entered into the CC, that's huge, getting to play stiffer competition, extra revenue from these matches (attendance and TV) and even perhaps (though it would be an upset) the chance to go to the CCL for glory and more cash.

My .03 cents anyway (see what I did there?)

[denime]

^^
You can't exactly have two teams play each other that are run by the same ownership group.

Yes you can,so many times in Germany 1st team would play their amateurs or so called farm team in NA.

Example:German Cup 1997
16.08.1997 1. FC Kaiserslautern (A) - 1. FC Kaiserslautern
0:5


If CSL champion would have a chance to play 6 games against big 3,that would change CSL a lot.
You would have better quality in CSL,since now all of a sudden 1st place mean something.

I'm surprised how some of you already trying to find excuses for TFC like they would suffer if they have to play 2 more games,or god forbid get upset by CSL team.That the beauty of the football cups,everybody has the chance for big upset.

[C.Ronaldo]

^if a CSL team can win the CCL, more players are inclined to develop and say in canada b/c of the exposure

[S_D]

Very good question,I can guess the answer is :shit load of $$$$ under the table and you are good to go.

Since when CONCRAP has requirements?

Montopoli wasn't sure. They did ask about it and were told no but not given what the minimum requirements were. They had a feeling it was money. Not sure if it was money available to pay for travel or ability to draw fans since concacaf gets a cut of the gate. The tourney comes under review next season so they may make changes. CSA will also be asking for an extra spot. Given the fan turn out in Montreal (= revenue for concacaf), I can see it as a possibility even though there are not a lot of teams in the Canadian competition.

[Nazzer]

In terms of CSL teams not meeting requirements, all I could find was this http://www.concacaf.com/view_article.aspx?id=4514 and the requirements as far as I could tell were power supply, floodlighting and locker rooms.

If the CSL is deemed worthy of participating in the V Cup, then the PCSL is too. (Shame on you Ben for being so Ontario-centric). The PCSL meets all the required components... its champion gets beaten on occasion by MLS or USL1 farm teams. If the Serbian White Eagles is good enough to face TFC, L'Impact and the Whitecaps then so is Victoria United.

I can't imagaine any of the stadiums that CSL or PCSL teams play at not having lights, power, or locker rooms so I think the real requirements are intangible 'level of play' requirements that are made up by concacaf.

[Ben Knight]

My bad. The more the merrier!!

[Toronto Ruffrider]

I seem to remember SweetOwnGoal saying that a certain standard of professional teams (MLS, USL-1) was required in order for the Voyageurs' Cup winner to gain entrance to Champions League. Ben, if you could ask Duane about this, I'm sure you could turn this issue into a very good discussion on It's Called Football.