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View Full Version : Onward! - Garber says he didn't do it



Ben Knight
05-02-2009, 07:16 AM
So -- who did ... and why?

http://onwardsoccer.com/2009/05/02/anything-you-want-to-tell-us-mo/

DOMIN8R
05-02-2009, 07:33 AM
I'm glad to see the media is paying attention.

LucaGol
05-02-2009, 07:37 AM
It's sort of a funny situation.

All the people on here with an intuition that something untoward was occurring behind the curtains would like to continue to talk about the topic so they can be vindicated. (Ergo ... me etc. et al)

The others who mocked those questioning the "truth" they were spoon fed will tow the party line of "let's not talk about John Carver, that's in the past"

What an interesting bit of psychology.

The sad part is that .... its getting tiresome to discuss for the people that unraveled the plot from almost day 1. But yet, there still needs to be closure. So here we are.


Ahhh well .... I was right, you all (most) were wrong ... so nyah nyah. :)

Ben Knight
05-02-2009, 07:52 AM
I'm as guilty as anyone. I just didn't believe -- in real time -- that anyone would put words in the league's mouth. I think that's what froze all of us.

ensco
05-02-2009, 07:57 AM
I'm as guilty as anyone. I just didn't believe -- in real time -- that anyone would put words in the league's mouth. I think that's what froze all of us.

No, you're not, Ben.

You were absolutely the first to put in print your doubts, with your name on it, at a point when it wasn't "safe" to do so.

And you got ripped on these boards for your trouble.

Ben Knight
05-02-2009, 08:00 AM
Yeah, but I was saying Carver's story didn't add up. (And that Mo's a poker player, and it's always hard to know what's what when he's talking.)

ensco
05-02-2009, 08:04 AM
Yeah, but I was saying Carver's story didn't add up. (And that Mo's a poker player, and it's always hard to know what's what when he's talking.)

Well, it's tougher for you, everybody else on here is anonymous. It's not like it matters what people think of anyone posting on here, right or wrong.

You've got a reputation/franchise/livelihood to protect. Which makes it 10x harder for anyone like you to take something like this head on.

But you were first. I remember.

Ben Knight
05-02-2009, 08:08 AM
Well, everyone in the pressbox today will be trying to get Mo's response to Garber.

It just got a fair bit harder to cover this team!

:-)

Mikey
05-02-2009, 08:19 AM
So we now think MLSE / Mo egged him on to jump because the team was playing like crap?

I've neve heard of that in professional football before....:rolleyes:

ensco
05-02-2009, 08:19 AM
The public support for sniffing out the truth hasn't been there, for whatever reason. It made the job of the journalists a lot harder.

ExiledRed
05-02-2009, 08:20 AM
The real issue is being lost.

Why does MLSE not allow our coach to watch the game from the pressbox?

Is MLSE going to fuck with future coaches in similar fashion?

Ben Knight
05-02-2009, 08:22 AM
No. The question is why make up a story like that in the first place?

ensco
05-02-2009, 08:23 AM
The real issue is being lost.

Why does MLSE not allow our coach to watch the game from the pressbox?

Is MLSE going to fuck with future coaches in similar fashion?

Don't coaches take orders from managers?

DOMIN8R
05-02-2009, 08:27 AM
TA was the first to support the officiating in MLS, if I recall correctly. I find it hard to believe that Mo would have a problem with JC choosing to view a game from up top. TA is not exactly a footie officanado. It might have been taken the wrong way or maybe MLSE didn't like the way the media paid so much attention to JC in the box rather than the win over Chivas.

ExiledRed
05-02-2009, 08:28 AM
Don't coaches take orders from managers?

Sure they do, but if they're unreasonable (And ordering the coach to the sidelines seems a bit that way to me) the coach quits.

What bothers me is how unattractive that makes us to other coaches.

People were talking about high profile coaches only a week ago. What high profile coach on the face of this earth is going to take that kind of shit from the likes of Mo?

Ben Knight
05-02-2009, 08:29 AM
Okay, here's a question:

Was the point of the "story" to get Carver back on the sidelines -- or the blue heck out of the organization?

DOMIN8R
05-02-2009, 08:31 AM
The evidence points to the former.

TFCREDNWHITE
05-02-2009, 08:31 AM
No. The question is why make up a story like that in the first place?

Money!...

Remember Ben, it always boils down to money.

1)Public Perception and 2)Corporate Image, these two things still equal money. They wouldn't want to shatter either of those two things because it could cause loss of money in the short term or long term....

I was with LucaGol from day one, i didn't believe for one second what was being spun to the media...

Ben Knight
05-02-2009, 08:34 AM
So what's the public perception if -- IF -- Mo falsely put words in the commissioner's mouth that drove John Carver out the door?

The media tend to frown on stuff like that -- IF that's what happened.

DOMIN8R
05-02-2009, 08:34 AM
Money!...

Remember Ben, it always boils down to money.

1)Public Perception and 2)Corporate Image, these two things still equal money. They wouldn't want to shatter either of those two things because it could cause loss of money in the short term or long term....

I was with LucaGol from day one, i didn't believe for one second what was being spun to the media...

The evidence doesn't point in that direction. It points to JC stepping down as an unintented consequence.

DOMIN8R
05-02-2009, 08:37 AM
So what's the public perception if -- IF -- Mo falsely put words in the commissioner's mouth that drove John Carver out the door?

The media tend to frown on stuff like that -- IF that's what happened.

Mo values handling the media as a highly sought after skill/attribute. The Toronto media are complicit in that arrangement. However, deliberate intention to deceive is a whole different story.:(

nascarguy
05-02-2009, 08:39 AM
Garber a lier

SanStarko
05-02-2009, 08:39 AM
I still stick to the theory that both TFC and Carver wanted a mutual split. Carver has, in my opinion, struggled here and probably realised it and TFC do, despite what people think, want some success.

The split suited both sides, Carver can leave and head off back to England to get back to just coaching and not being a head coach. TFC get to give Cummins a chance while they look for somebody else to bring in.

There's been so many holes in all the stories that it was kinda obvious things didn't add up. Both sides have been going out of their way to make each other look good and it really does seem like both sides had decided that Carver moving on was for the best.

ensco
05-02-2009, 08:40 AM
The evidence doesn't point in that direction. It points to JC stepping down as an unintented consequence.

There is no "evidence" of this or anything else. All we have is hearsay.

Mo's already told the Star he's the one who asked JC to go back on the field.

I've got a prediction for Ben: when he and others press Mo on this today, they won't get one new shred of info on this. Mo had his reasons, and he's not going to share them.

Mo and Carver have signed a confidentiality agreement, so that's how it's going to be.

Phil
05-02-2009, 08:44 AM
There is no "evidence" of this or anything else. All we have is hearsay.

Mo's already told the Star he's the one who asked JC to go back on the field.

I've got a prediction for Ben: when he and others press Mo on this today, they won't get one new shred of info on this. Mo had his reasons, and he's not going to share them.

Mo and Carver have signed a confidentiality agreement, so that's how it's going to be.

I think the truth has tried to come out, but the non-disclosure thing keeps rearing its head. I think you are bang on with the idea that we will get nothing new for quite some time as far as "evidence".

ExiledRed
05-02-2009, 08:44 AM
In my perception, Mo and Carver were sharing the same job. I know it's not unheard of outside of north america, but in my world, the most effective coaches sign their own players, establish a rapport with potential signigs themselves and coach the team as they see fit with minimal or no interference.

Good or bad, the best coaches prefer things this way, and if we start dropping coaches because of meddling from upstairs, other coaches are going to view TFC as a poor prospect. It hurts us.

I'm not unhappy Carver has left, but this pressbox issue which Mo has admitted was an MLSE problem, leaves a bad taste.

ensco
05-02-2009, 08:50 AM
In my perception, Mo and Carver were sharing the same job. I know it's not unheard of outside of north america, but in my world, the most effective coaches sign their own players, establish a rapport with potential signigs themselves and coach the team as they see fit with minimal or no interference.

Good or bad, the best coaches prefer things this way, and if we start dropping coaches because of meddling from upstairs, other coaches are going to view TFC as a poor prospect. It hurts us.

I'm not unhappy Carver has left, but this pressbox issue which Mo has admitted was an MLSE problem, leaves a bad taste.

You have a point.

I've being trying to find the press release announcing Carver's hiring (maybe someone can find the link). I remember it well.

As I recall, it talked about a closing on the DVP, Raptors tickets, a food drive and, oh yeah, by the way, at the end of the release.....we have a new coach, John Carver.

I remember thinking that this was a bad omen, it's not the way to set up a coach to succeed.

It never looked like the Rafa Benitez announcement, that's for sure.

ExiledRed
05-02-2009, 08:58 AM
Is it worthpointing out that if we got Sven Goran Erikkson as some posters discussed, that Mo's job would be redundant?

Erikkson isn't the kind of coach who would leave the signings to someone else and just get on with coaching what he has, and there is nothing that Mo can tell Erikkson about coaching a team.

Mo's survival depends on getting coaches with less experience than him, (not that carver was less experienced than him btw) which is scary.

sulfur
05-02-2009, 09:02 AM
Yah, but with Sven, we'd also be trying to sign everyone for huge pay packets. :P

wzhxvy
05-02-2009, 09:06 AM
Guys, lets face it...last thing Mo wanted is a coach in the press box...I mean that threatens his fragile petty existence...but its clear he meddled in the formation/lineup and JC stepped down...the rest of what happened in terms of how it went down and what they told the media IMO is just a reflection of the lack of class, honesty and professionalism of MO, and potentially Carver and potentially MO's leadership by continuing to accept this.

TFCREDNWHITE
05-02-2009, 09:07 AM
Ben,

i love the fact that you provide us with excellent perspective on TFC, great work and thank you!

Remember that this year 2009 is a crucial year for TFC. The board has done what it needs to do, by providing monies and approvals for many on-field and off-field products and services, their has also been a lot of persuasion, courting and meetings with City officials from various departments. The board has/will continue to invest a sizeable amount of money and resources into TFC and Canadian Soccer, but there also comes a price tag with that...

With that being said, Tom Anslemi has bosses to answer to as well, and with everything that they are planning in the next couple of years at BMO and TFC, Tom can't afford to have a manager that is insubordinate. He needed to convey that to not only Carver but the rest of the staff also. He needed Carver to understand that winning(making the playoffs) this year is very very important because it relates to season seat renewals, allowing for price increases in the coming years, keeping non season seat holders coming to games, and allowing for the increased advertising dollars to roll into the company via GolTV and other channels. From an optics point of view this years importance cannot be stressed enough. And of course Mo Johnston tows the party line, because if he doesn't Tom will relieve him of his $350,000 per year salary faster than Trump can say "You're FIRED"...bascally there are way "bigger" things on the line than Carver himself or his persona....

I hope this sheds some light....

TFCREDNWHITE
05-02-2009, 09:10 AM
There is no "evidence" of this or anything else. All we have is hearsay.

Mo's already told the Star he's the one who asked JC to go back on the field.

I've got a prediction for Ben: when he and others press Mo on this today, they won't get one new shred of info on this. Mo had his reasons, and he's not going to share them.

Mo and Carver have signed a confidentiality agreement, so that's how it's going to be.

Yup, exactly right. And remember Mo's reasons and/or pressure comes directly from Tom Anselmi.

Ben Knight
05-02-2009, 09:11 AM
Carver coached TFC from the press box at least once last season, too.

Cashcleaner
05-02-2009, 09:12 AM
The real issue is being lost.

Why does MLSE not allow our coach to watch the game from the pressbox?

Is MLSE going to fuck with future coaches in similar fashion?

Both very good questions.

DOMIN8R
05-02-2009, 09:20 AM
Carver coached TFC from the press box at least once last season, too.

True. But this time it was on the heals of a JC "shoot from the hip" to the media. He called the officiating X,Y & Z. The TFC franchise owes it's success to the perception of a professional league and team. JC undermined the perception of MLS and therefore the teams that play in that league.

Then the very next game he doesn't speak to the media and sits up in the perch. This ends up being great fodder for the media and boards -like this one.

Not a very cohesive image for TFC and TO soccer fans is it? It makes sense that someone who is concerned with team and league image would want this distration to stop.

TFCREDNWHITE
05-02-2009, 09:25 AM
True. But this time it was on the heals of a JC "shoot from the hip" to the media. He called the officiating X,Y & Z. The TFC franchise owes it's success to the perception of a professional league and team. JC undermined the perception of MLS and therefore the teams that play in that league.

Then the very next game he doesn't speak to the media and sits up in the perch. This ends up being great fodder for the media and boards -like this one.

Not a very cohesive image for TFC and TO soccer fans is it? It makes sense that someone who is concerned with team and league image would want this distration to stop.

Exactly. There is way more money at stake, to let one guy ruin or disrupt things. TA knows this...and will not allow for it.

Beach_Red
05-02-2009, 09:25 AM
Yah, but with Sven, we'd also be trying to sign everyone for huge pay packets. :P

Exactly. There's really no point in a "high profile" coach who can't deal with the salary cap and roster restrictions. This is a different leage, it's run differently, it requires different skills.

The biggest favour John Carver did TFC was point out how different the league is, so let's hope they don't make the same mistake again of looking for a coach who just doesn't understand this league.

Beach_Red
05-02-2009, 09:28 AM
The public support for sniffing out the truth hasn't been there, for whatever reason. It made the job of the journalists a lot harder.


But have people been trying to sniff out the truth, or have they been trying to find evidence that supports the guy they like best?

DOMIN8R
05-02-2009, 09:29 AM
^^^ excellent question.

wzhxvy
05-02-2009, 09:31 AM
Ben,

i love the fact that you provide us with excellent perspective on TFC, great work and thank you!

Remember that this year 2009 is a crucial year for TFC. The board has done what it needs to do, by providing monies and approvals for many on-field and off-field products and services, their has also been a lot of persuasion, courting and meetings with City officials from various departments. The board has/will continue to invest a sizeable amount of money and resources into TFC and Canadian Soccer, but there also comes a price tag with that...

With that being said, Tom Anslemi has bosses to answer to as well, and with everything that they are planning in the next couple of years at BMO and TFC, Tom can't afford to have a manager that is insubordinate. He needed to convey that to not only Carver but the rest of the staff also. He needed Carver to understand that winning(making the playoffs) this year is very very important because it relates to season seat renewals, allowing for price increases in the coming years, keeping non season seat holders coming to games, and allowing for the increased advertising dollars to roll into the company via GolTV and other channels. From an optics point of view this years importance cannot be stressed enough. And of course Mo Johnston tows the party line, because if he doesn't Tom will relieve him of his $350,000 per year salary faster than Trump can say "You're FIRED"...bascally there are way "bigger" things on the line than Carver himself or his persona....

I hope this sheds some light....

I generally agree with this, because it brings a valid business view. The Season ticket waiting list...sell outs and hence expansion plans etc could all pretty quickly disappear if they screw this up...and by extension the Anselmi dreams to make more money and rise the MLSE food chain could go the way of the dodo bird if that happened...so yes this is a big year

TFCREDNWHITE
05-02-2009, 09:39 AM
I generally agree with this, because it brings a valid business view. The Season ticket waiting list...sell outs and hence expansion plans etc could all pretty quickly disappear if they screw this up...and by extension the Anselmi dreams to make more money and rise the MLSE food chain could go the way of the dodo bird if that happened...so yes this is a big year


thanks. :flare::drum::):):):) LOL

mclaren
05-02-2009, 09:43 AM
There is nothing wrong with taking in the game from a box or wherever the coach wants to - it's his choice and decision. Upper management should not get in the way of it. He is hired to do a job and if he feels that is the best approach then he should be backed 100% without interference.

ExiledRed
05-02-2009, 09:52 AM
Exactly. There's really no point in a "high profile" coach who can't deal with the salary cap and roster restrictions. This is a different leage, it's run differently, it requires different skills.

The biggest favour John Carver did TFC was point out how different the league is, so let's hope they don't make the same mistake again of looking for a coach who just doesn't understand this league.

I was using Sven, because his name came up when we were discussing replacements.

The fact that good coaches will view TFC as unattractive remains, whether they are MLS experienced or not. There are several coaches in MLS who probably wouldn't take Mo's/MLSE's shit either and may feel that answering to Mo would hinder their ability to coach the team as best they can.

kdzb
05-02-2009, 09:54 AM
No. The question is why make up a story like that in the first place?

The question is how the players are going to react when they discover that the FO of MLSE was behind this messy story from day 1.

I think MLSE wanted to fire JC but they find it hard to do it so early in the season and since JC is very popular with the fans and respected by the players then MLSE thought, it's better to make his job difficult by giving him a hard time and not supporting him when MLS does something against him (discipline/fine him).

This makes me more ANGRY to know that our own organization is the one who is destroying our team.

How can they expect us (the fans) to support this organization?

nascarguy
05-02-2009, 09:55 AM
anything that mlse owns is allways sold out that is why i will never give up my season tickets. There allways will be someone to sell them to.

James Oliphant
05-02-2009, 09:58 AM
The question is how the players are going to react when they discover that the FO of MLSE was behind this messy story from day 1.

I think MLSE wanted to fire JC but they find it hard to do it so early in the season and since JC is very popular with the fans and respected by the players then MLSE thought, it's better to make his job difficult by giving him a hard time and not supporting him when MLS does something against him (discipline/fine him).

This makes me more ANGRY to know that our own organization is the one who is destroying our team.

How can they expect us (the fans) to support this organization?

You're making a LOT of assumptions here.

wzhxvy
05-02-2009, 10:09 AM
thanks. :flare::drum::):):):) LOL


Sorry didnt realize you were the bible on this...now I know and will just read your posts, admire, and not comment.

Beach_Red
05-02-2009, 10:10 AM
I was using Sven, because his name came up when we were discussing replacements.

The fact that good coaches will view TFC as unattractive remains, whether they are MLS experienced or not. There are several coaches in MLS who probably wouldn't take Mo's/MLSE's shit either and may feel that answering to Mo would hinder their ability to coach the team as best they can.


Maybe.

But for a long time Carver was given complete control of the team - something most coaches would never get.

It's entirely possible in the "shit" category Carver gave as good as he got - the only truth here is that we don't know what really went on or for how long it was building.

All we know is that at the end of season one, the last game was a last minute goal by Dichio to tie New England (who we seem to give far too much respect to around here, but that's another thread) and we went out on a high note. Season two the last game against San Jose was a joke - and the fact that Carver wasn't fired after that tells me, at least, that he was being given too much leeway.

The first home game this year was just as much a joke and the fact that the coach skated on that tells me you're right, as a manager Mo has problems. The biggest one was he was too lenient on a coach that could not get anywhere near the best performance out of his players.

I don't think that will scare off other coaches - most would love that kind of situation. Of course, maybe Mo has learned from that and won't give a future coach so much control until he has a winning record.

Besides, this team is doing exactly what a third year MLS team should do - they're making a young, ambitious guy with lots to prove the coach. And I hope he takes this opportunity and does the absolute best with it.

TFCREDNWHITE
05-02-2009, 10:48 AM
Sorry didnt realize you were the bible on this...now I know and will just read your posts, admire, and not comment.


HAHAHa .... LOL....:D

TFCREDNWHITE
05-02-2009, 10:51 AM
Maybe.

But for a long time Carver was given complete control of the team - something most coaches would never get.

It's entirely possible in the "shit" category Carver gave as good as he got - the only truth here is that we don't know what really went on or for how long it was building.

All we know is that at the end of season one, the last game was a last minute goal by Dichio to tie New England (who we seem to give far too much respect to around here, but that's another thread) and we went out on a high note. Season two the last game against San Jose was a joke - and the fact that Carver wasn't fired after that tells me, at least, that he was being given too much leeway.

The first home game this year was just as much a joke and the fact that the coach skated on that tells me you're right, as a manager Mo has problems. The biggest one was he was too lenient on a coach that could not get anywhere near the best performance out of his players.

I don't think that will scare off other coaches - most would love that kind of situation. Of course, maybe Mo has learned from that and won't give a future coach so much control until he has a winning record.

Besides, this team is doing exactly what a third year MLS team should do - they're making a young, ambitious guy with lots to prove the coach. And I hope he takes this opportunity and does the absolute best with it.


Bingo. As long as your winning, you can keep the pressure from your bosses bottled and on the shelf. If you keep losing, than damn straight you are gonna get the gears!

ensco
05-02-2009, 11:42 AM
Maybe.

But for a long time Carver was given complete control of the team - something most coaches would never get.


Really?

Who signed Vitti?

Who made the DeRo trade?

Who made the draft picks?

ensco
05-02-2009, 11:49 AM
But have people been trying to sniff out the truth, or have they been trying to find evidence that supports the guy they like best?

My personal opinion, which a majority on here won't like, is that there is only one fact. TFC's formation and lineup changed significant once Carver left the sideline. Beyond that, there's been a general willingness to believe Carver, that caused people to ignore some very obvious holes in the story, right from the beginning.

Mo thinks he's smarter than everybody else. He tries to engineer departures in such a way that people's reputations don't get hurt. I think Mo was trying to do Carver a favour in terms of how this was handled, but it backfired on everybody.

YES I KNOW IT"S JUST SPECULATION - I'LL SAVE ABOUT 10 OF THE RPB AYATOLLAHS THE TROUBLE OF VENTING THEIR INDIGNATION - NEWS FLASH - THIS IS THE INTERNET

Beach_Red
05-02-2009, 12:30 PM
Really?

Who signed Vitti?

Who made the DeRo trade?

Who made the draft picks?

Yeah, I know. I feel (and have said on here lots of times) that the heart of this team was almost all aquired in season one - or in the case of DeRo started in season one, it just took longer, same for Guevara - and that player aquisition wasn't as good in season two. Now, everyone associated with TFC said that Carver had huge input in that, certainly all the players that came in for a trial were evaluated by Carver.

So, it actually looks like once Carver came aboard the team's development slowed significantly - did he bring in Robert and Ricketts? He certainly had a lot of input. He probably had a lot of input with evaluating the draft picks and did a very good job there, let's give him credit where credit's due.

But the anti-Mo camp will always be anti-Mo no matter what. I'd never heard of the guy before he took this job (I'd never followed soccer before) and I have no inside source or anything, but to me it looks like he's the one putting together an MLS team and Carver wasn't a good fit for this league. He may be a terrific coach, but not in MLS. There's nothing wrong with that, the guy just didn't like the league. Fair enough, lots of people here don't like the league, but it's the one we have and it's changing very slowly, so it's better we have people involved with the team who can live with that.

jloome
05-02-2009, 02:33 PM
I think they're an interesting pair, both men with significant beneficial strengths but significant personality flaws that impact their jobs, including the usual lack of humility in the face of a learning curve that you get from ex-pro athletes.

There's no doubt that, within the constraints of being a shrewd businessman, Mo is a good roster guy. He'll build a good team for us -- but it might take awhile, because he's gonna be a cheap mofo about it and keep his employers happy, first and foremost.

At the same time, there's been significant discussions about his abrasive personality over the last couple of years; the contention Srdjan Djekanovic made last year after leaving that Mo is not respected may suggest he's bad at handling people, good at handling business.

Ossington Mental Youth
05-02-2009, 02:42 PM
the contention Srdjan Djekanovic made last year after leaving that Mo is not respected may suggest he's bad at handling people, good at handling business.


gotta say in the business world this isnt an entirely uncommon thing. Not defending it by any means btw.
also it should be noted that Djekanovic doesnt have a particularly great history as far as club relations are concerned (if im not mistaken).

ua-kozak_TFC
05-03-2009, 12:03 PM
I know why Carver Resigned...

About the players... or the players that didn't come... I don;t think it was because of a DP, but a defender, he;s been asking for a couple since before the season has started (we got Serioux... who i think is out of shape... and is on off type of player sometimes grandious useally not effective), Mo probably said none would be coming in the near future. I think that was the tip of the glass, with all the ref problems, etc...So i think John said, ok i am gone then...

DO i think is good thing that carver is gone? YES, tactically! (super nice guy, but not a good coach) But also NO, because he had a heart... and i think he was the only one who could stand up and say what he feels and what he believes is the right thing to do... which i don;t think Cummins will ever do... he looks like a pushover. If i was in his position i wouldn;t neither specially as interim coach.... Mo on the other hand could 2 f@cks, all he wants is his half a million paycheck as the rest of the MLSE.
Which is a shame... since they might spoil this amazing franchise... there are so much people can take.

ps: Note the under 20k attendance last week... that NEVER happened on a saturday...with TFC i don;t think

Shep
05-03-2009, 12:20 PM
There is nothing wrong with taking in the game from a box or wherever the coach wants to - it's his choice and decision. Upper management should not get in the way of it. He is hired to do a job and if he feels that is the best approach then he should be backed 100% without interference.

I was a Carver man, but honestly he was the coach, in most sports the coach is supposed to be there to coach, not sat up in the high seats with a cell phone. Yes it was his decision, but it was the clubs decision to tell him he should be down on side coaching, and IMO they were right. I mean, they did let him up there for the one match - why did he need to continue with that plan?

There comes a time when a man must swallow his pride to get the job done, or walk away and leave it to someone else to do. Carver did the right thing, he chose to leave instead of stay because he couldn't swallow any more of his pride (granted he already had a belly-full).

But Carver is gone, let's not dwell. Onward and upward TFC!!

Shep
05-03-2009, 12:22 PM
I know why Carver Resigned...

About the players... or the players that didn't come... I don;t think it was because of a DP, but a defender, he;s been asking for a couple since before the season has started (we got Serioux... who i think is out of shape... and is on off type of player sometimes grandious useally not effective), Mo probably said none would be coming in the near future. I think that was the tip of the glass, with all the ref problems, etc...So i think John said, ok i am gone then...

DO i think is good thing that carver is gone? YES, tactically! (super nice guy, but not a good coach) But also NO, because he had a heart... and i think he was the only one who could stand up and say what he feels and what he believes is the right thing to do... which i don;t think Cummins will ever do... he looks like a pushover. If i was in his position i wouldn;t neither specially as interim coach.... Mo on the other hand could 2 f@cks, all he wants is his half a million paycheck as the rest of the MLSE.
Which is a shame... since they might spoil this amazing franchise... there are so much people can take.

ps: Note the under 20k attendance last week... that NEVER happened on a saturday...with TFC i don;t think

Under 20k on this Saturday too .. 19,988! Still a great turnout.
With TFC growing I wonder if the number of scalped seats is too though...

mighty_torontofc_2008
05-03-2009, 12:23 PM
I'm as guilty as anyone. I just didn't believe -- in real time -- that anyone would put words in the league's mouth. I think that's what froze all of us.


Garber is a Liar....hes just covering his ass and the Leagues....

mighty_torontofc_2008
05-03-2009, 12:27 PM
Really?

Who signed Vitti?

Who made the DeRo trade?

Who made the draft picks?


Mo gets much credit for Vitti and the draft picks

He loses credit for bringing in DeRo..he did dick all again yesterday in his limired appearance.... record with DeRo playing...1-2-3 without him
2-0-0 stats dont lie

nfitz
05-03-2009, 12:30 PM
Why does this story even matter any more?

Isn't it possible that everyone's story is true.

Someone in MLSE could easily have said something along the lines of MLS is going to want to see you on the field, which could then be interpreted as Carver saying MLS wanting me on the field was the last straw, without MLS actually said anything.

In a situation like this, everyone has a bit of a different perspective, no one will ahve seen that they have mis-spoken, and it really doesn't matter. There are clearly many issues at play here - I"m sure the emphasis on which issue was THE issue changes for different people on different days.

It's time to move onwards, and not to dwell on this.

ua-kozak_TFC
05-03-2009, 09:10 PM
Maybe.

But for a long time Carver was given complete control of the team - something most coaches would never get.

It's entirely possible in the "shit" category Carver gave as good as he got - the only truth here is that we don't know what really went on or for how long it was building.

All we know is that at the end of season one, the last game was a last minute goal by Dichio to tie New England (who we seem to give far too much respect to around here, but that's another thread) and we went out on a high note. Season two the last game against San Jose was a joke - and the fact that Carver wasn't fired after that tells me, at least, that he was being given too much leeway.

The first home game this year was just as much a joke and the fact that the coach skated on that tells me you're right, as a manager Mo has problems. The biggest one was he was too lenient on a coach that could not get anywhere near the best performance out of his players.

I don't think that will scare off other coaches - most would love that kind of situation. Of course, maybe Mo has learned from that and won't give a future coach so much control until he has a winning record.

Besides, this team is doing exactly what a third year MLS team should do - they're making a young, ambitious guy with lots to prove the coach. And I hope he takes this opportunity and does the absolute best with it.

dude i donno why i bother answering to you... and i promise this will be the last time for my own good. Your comment about you "never following soccer before TFC came along" explain SOOO much to me... you have no idea. I have no idea how old you are... but it;s either you are a 15 year old who needs attention or REALLY REALLY soccer-dumb 50 year old...

ABout your comment that i highlighted in bold. Are you kidding?? Every Manager gets the freedom or whatever he wants to do with the players because that is HIS team... and if the team loses all eyes are on him. So don;t give me this "priviledge freedom crap". I think if anything Carver wasn;t given freedom... since reinforcement in defence NEVER came...(Serioux is seriously out of shape not sure if anyone noticed... he has a game of brightness and 6 of mediocre performance...) last year his options were limited... this year's reinforcement were Dero and Vitti (cudo's to Mo for bringing atleast that since it;s a huge improovement on last year's upgrade 9th pick julius james....) Although us being the worst defence in 2 seasons in a row you;d think that "Mighty Mo" would be smart enough to bring a few... i guess that is year five in the master plan...

ps: people who really believe the five years master plan... I hate to break this to you... but Santa does not exist...
Also can somebody please explain this to me... because I WOULD really really like to know... According to Mighty MO 2 things keep popping out of his mouth 1) 5 year plan 2) we have a solid core. So ok by solid corei think he maent (Serioux, RObbo, DIchio, Brenan, Guevara and Dero) Everybody agree? That is more than half of our squad...
do you realize that all of these are 32 and above??? ok in in 2 year most of these guys will be in their mid 35... DO you really think that they will be still with us? ANd if they will be do you think they will perform at the level needed to get to finals?? I guess we gonnna have to start from scratch....

last time i checked these players are no maldini... You need to realize that Soccer player life time is much shorter than Hockey Basketball or any other NA sport...

H Bomb
05-03-2009, 09:28 PM
K firstly, there are like 5 people who "bought into" the 5 years plan...secondly five year plan does not = four years of crap and then good, it means you focus the first five years on building a squad/academy and infrastructure as well as a good core of young players and old so that after the five years everything will be in place for the club to maintain a successful operation.

After that you need to add Wynne, Cronin, and Frei to the core while hoping that Nana, O Brien White and Vitti all become a part of that.

Lastly Serioux is 29, and 32 + 2 = 34 not mid 35

oh yeah, one more lastly...about your last sentence....no it isnt

felipe
05-03-2009, 09:38 PM
hmmmm...reading this thread...I don't see anything that has come out that has 'proved' your anti-Carver rhetoric...it just seems that there is more to the story...actually I was told from someone this weekend 'in the know' that Mo did indeed force Carver out...i'm not sure how that vindicates the anti carver senitiments posted earlier in teh week though...anyway, who cares he's gone, move on.

Beach_Red
05-03-2009, 09:50 PM
dude i donno why i bother answering to you... and i promise this will be the last time for my own good...


Okay, up to you. I thought we were just talking here, I wasn't taking it that seriously. I'm always open to the possibility that I'm wrong - though I get the feeling you aren't.

MLS is a North American league - okay, it's a bit of a hybrid, but its structure is mostly North American and the structure of TFC is very much like a North American team with the GM-coach relationship -- but not completely.

I'm the kind of fan MLS needs to attract if it's going to survive (I may actually be too old for the demographic - you were very close in your guess - but I have got my kids interested). What I know about are North American sports, that's my reference point and what I will compare this league to. Right now, I agree, compared to baseball and the NFL it's a fifth-rate bush league with the players and managers to match, but I have hope it will improve.

I've seen a lot of expansion teams come into North American structured leagues and how well they did in the first two or thee years is very rarely an indicator of how well they would be doing ten years later - and if they had many winning seasons by then.

Dynasties look like a thing of the past in North American sports.

james
05-03-2009, 10:22 PM
i liked John Carver for his passion. But i dont see what his whole problem with MLS was, some of the reasons for quitting seemed kind of stupid. Ya the reffing can be bad at times, but ive seen some bad refs in other leagues tho to. And that had ball by Marvell Wynne when playing Dallas i think was a good call. He flat out got hit in the hand by the ball, ive seen guys in EPL get hit in the chest and shit and get hand ball called against them. And ive never seen coaches anywhere else watch from the box office. And also MLS never even asked him to get back to the sidelines, Mo Johnson said that in the Toronto Sun the day after, I think carver went kind of crazy at the end.

greatwhitenorf
05-03-2009, 10:59 PM
So, Carver abandons the sideline, eventually for good and we pick up seven of a possible nine points from three games against quality opponents.

Not saying we're perfect, but we've rebounded nicely from a brief bad spell that preceded Carver's departure and look to be moving in the right direction going forward.

The team's moved on and the team's moved up. Works for me. Next issue.

Steve
05-04-2009, 07:53 AM
ABout your comment that i highlighted in bold. Are you kidding?? Every Manager gets the freedom or whatever he wants to do with the players because that is HIS team... and if the team loses all eyes are on him. So don;t give me this "priviledge freedom crap". I think if anything Carver wasn;t given freedom... since reinforcement in defence NEVER came...(Serioux is seriously out of shape not sure if anyone noticed... he has a game of brightness and 6 of mediocre performance...) last year his options were limited... this year's reinforcement were Dero and Vitti (cudo's to Mo for bringing atleast that since it;s a huge improovement on last year's upgrade 9th pick julius james....) Although us being the worst defence in 2 seasons in a row you;d think that "Mighty Mo" would be smart enough to bring a few... i guess that is year five in the master plan...

ps: people who really believe the five years master plan... I hate to break this to you... but Santa does not exist...
Also can somebody please explain this to me... because I WOULD really really like to know... According to Mighty MO 2 things keep popping out of his mouth 1) 5 year plan 2) we have a solid core. So ok by solid corei think he maent (Serioux, RObbo, DIchio, Brenan, Guevara and Dero) Everybody agree? That is more than half of our squad...
do you realize that all of these are 32 and above??? ok in in 2 year most of these guys will be in their mid 35... DO you really think that they will be still with us? ANd if they will be do you think they will perform at the level needed to get to finals?? I guess we gonnna have to start from scratch....

last time i checked these players are no maldini... You need to realize that Soccer player life time is much shorter than Hockey Basketball or any other NA sport...

Personally, I think the idea of a manager and GM is a great idea, and I'm glad TFC is using it. Did Carver have input into the player acquisition process? Of course he did, but by having Mo there, he didn't have to take time off of the sidelines to find those players, and navigate the minefield of MLS rules to get them. Seriously, MLS is not like other leagues, there are a lot of rules in place that mean you need to have a very good strategic mind, and time, to build a team. You need to use your draft, your allocation money, your salary cap, the discovery list, international spots, and trades to build your squad. Carver would have been hopelessly lost in all of that. Luckily, we had Mo who is intimately familiar with MLS. If Carver had had to learn the rules, he wouldn't have been training the team. If Carver had had to be on the phone with agents all over, he wouldn't have been able to try tactics on the pitch. All in all, it's a good setup.

Oh, and as a bonus, Mo gets to be the badguy. Everyone here knows how it is, you ask your boss for a raise, s/he says they'll try their best, then come back and tell you their boss just refused to listen. Sure, they'd love to give it to you, if only their boss would understand! See, now the person who's responsible for paying you so little isn't the person you deal with day to day. The person you deal with is on your side. That fosters a much better relationship. Now, players can go in to renegotiate deals with Mo, Mo can play hardball, and it won't hurt their relationship with their coach.

Dirk Diggler
05-04-2009, 02:47 PM
So, Carver abandons the sideline, eventually for good and we pick up seven of a possible nine points from three games against quality opponents.

Not saying we're perfect, but we've rebounded nicely from a brief bad spell that preceded Carver's departure and look to be moving in the right direction going forward.

The team's moved on and the team's moved up. Works for me. Next issue.

OMG .... Seven of Nine..

http://www.1956packardpanther.com/SevenOfNineJeriRyan.jpg

*drools*

mighty_torontofc_2008
05-04-2009, 03:02 PM
i liked John Carver for his passion. But i dont see what his whole problem with MLS was, some of the reasons for quitting seemed kind of stupid. Ya the reffing can be bad at times, but ive seen some bad refs in other leagues tho to. And that had ball by Marvell Wynne when playing Dallas i think was a good call. He flat out got hit in the hand by the ball, ive seen guys in EPL get hit in the chest and shit and get hand ball called against them. And ive never seen coaches anywhere else watch from the box office. And also MLS never even asked him to get back to the sidelines, Mo Johnson said that in the Toronto Sun the day after, I think carver went kind of crazy at the end.


MOJO said on the interviw done by 590 it was the league that asked carver to go back to the field...Carver didnt need the hastle of the league
(Garber) on his back, no job is worth that BS.. the handball by Wynne was accidental the dallas player kicked the ball into his hands, Wynne
could not get out of the way...it has to be a hand ball on purpose for a penalty to be given..the ref blew the call. Managers watch the game from above all the time in europe...only MLS doesnt allow it??

mighty_torontofc_2008
05-04-2009, 07:29 PM
So, Carver abandons the sideline, eventually for good and we pick up seven of a possible nine points from three games against quality opponents.

Not saying we're perfect, but we've rebounded nicely from a brief bad spell that preceded Carver's departure and look to be moving in the right direction going forward.

The team's moved on and the team's moved up. Works for me. Next issue.


we sucked last game the worst of the season...we were luck to get a point thanks to Barrett...we got outplayed and out worked on our own pitch...if this is Cummins stratagey bring back Carver!!

e-karam
05-06-2009, 03:53 PM
I can't see why Garber would want him out of the league. It was mlse not used to a passionate coach, or Johnston feeling like he's losing power.