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View Full Version : Onward! - Carver's story doesn't square



Ben Knight
04-28-2009, 10:27 AM
http://onwardsoccer.com/2009/04/28/carvers-story-doesnt-square/

felipe
04-28-2009, 11:07 AM
ummm...Ben, is your other name Giambac?

I find it quite easy to believe that Carver had had has fill. Its not like he is the type that could just shrug off perceived injustices or inadquacies - they would eat at him 24/7. He lives and breathes football, every moment of his waking is dedicated to making his team better.

If he truly believed his mere presence was hurting the team - he would quit.

I suggest you review some of our earlier games - there is not a great deal of differnce; just a continuing steady improvement game to game.

Super
04-28-2009, 11:13 AM
Great article. I agree that Carver, and TFC, may not be telling us the whole story. But at this point I'm not sure if it matters. Cummins is the new coach and whether he is the man behind the 4-3-3 formation or not is less important than the fact that we're winning.

Parkdale
04-28-2009, 11:13 AM
They are even more helplessly subject to the strange structure of MLS than any coach will ever be. Where’s “all for one” now?

the "all for one" is stronger than ever.

Unlike the usual pre-game huddle where 11 men circle up in the middle of the field, all the starters, subs AND coaching staff got together in a side line huddle before the kick off. To me, that shows a new sense of unity in the squad, and the extended squad, that was never there before. I think the boys understand they are now playing for something more than just their starting spot.

Billy the kid
04-28-2009, 11:17 AM
I don't think the team instantly changed when Carver sat upstairs. I tend to believe that had he stuck around, he would be enjoying the fruits of those wins. Regardless, let's hope the wins keep coming.

Fort York Redcoat
04-28-2009, 11:24 AM
He left and called out the league instead of staying and getting fined and/or banned from the touchline every week. What message is stronger to the league? Isn't that what the players (of all the teams) need? Someone to point out that the product needs improving to match the $$$ we fans put into it?

Eastend
04-28-2009, 11:29 AM
I am saddened that Carver has left but at the same time question what this says to potential future coaches and players that we try to attract to our league.

The big sign I see says, "DON'T GO THERE!!!", which is worrisome to me.

LucaGol
04-28-2009, 11:30 AM
Right ... it's just a coincidence that we played the 2 best games of TFC's existence with Carver not on the sidelines :rolleyes:

If we win the NCC and the MLS Championship ... is John Carver going to take the credit for that too.

Honestly, I read this guy like a book the first time I heard him speak. He came into the league thinking that he was above it, and that's pretty much how he left. Only problem with that is not only was he not above it .... he wasn't even good enough to be in it.

backbeat
04-28-2009, 11:31 AM
i absolutely believe Carver - why do so many believe these conspiracy theories? he's always shot from the hip - not a man to make things up or mince his words - there is no way he wasn't majorly involved in the formation.

anyway we move on but in his leaving he has brought this team and organization closer together, a much tighter 'All For One' and good on you JC, I say!!

LucaGol
04-28-2009, 11:34 AM
i absolutely believe Carver - why do so many believe these conspiracy theories? he's always shot from the hip - not a man to make things up or mince his words - there is no way he wasn't majorly involved in the formation.

anyway we move on but in his leaving he has brought this team and organization closer together, a much tighter 'All For One' and good on you JC, I say!!

Mind boggling post.

Even when a respected soccer journalist like Ben Knight lays out the story people close their eyes.

You know, no one is going to persecute you for once liking a coach that turned out to be mediocre at best.

e.g. I rate Stefan Frei right now ... if in 1 year he can't even hack being our 3rd string keeper ... should I still keep saying that he's bound for Europe and the best thing that's ever happened to TFC?

felipe
04-28-2009, 11:42 AM
Ummm...Lucagol....most of what a headcoach does - he does during the week @ practice; if he's done his job right, there's (hopefully) little enough to do during the match, other than the odd adjustment.

ask any coach if he'd rather miss the game or the practices leading up to it.

How can you not think Carver had a big hand in the last two games - everyone involved is there because of him.

People don't just become head coaches of pro franchises if they are comically inept - as you imply Carver is. Carver has coached and trained some of the greatest players to ever come out of the greatest league in the world. Sometimes great coaches don't mesh with their squads - I'm not implying this is the case here - it doesn't make them a poor choice.

Diminishing Carver's achievments is a poor reflection on you, not the other way around.

Steve
04-28-2009, 11:46 AM
I think Carver was up in the box because he was so frustrated with the league, not because he "wanted a better view". If he had "wanted a better view", he would have probably come back to the touchline at half (after giving the halftime speech to the boys). If he had just "wanted a better view" he DEFINITELY would have given (or at least been at) the post game press conference, to answer questions from the press about what he saw from his better vantage point. There is no reason for him to stay up there away from press and team if it was a purely tactical choice.

No, I believe John was just completely frustrated at that point. I believe he was sick of the refs in MLS, and a half defeated man. I believe that he stayed away half to prove a point (if you don't like me talking to your fourth official, I'll just sit in my little box) and half because he didn't think he could handle it. As for the formation, he obviously had to sign off on it, but I think it was probably the coaching staff who pushed it, and he just didn't care to argue, so he said "ok, go for it". Why does that matter? Because if it was in fact cummins who pushed the 4-3-3 we would be well served to keep him as an interm, if it wasn't, that has to be taken into consideration.

And, as to "why would Carver say something like that if it wasn't totally true" just think about it for a second. I don't believe, for a second, that Carver is completely done with coaching soccer. When he applies to his next job, which will serve him better, being known as a coach who had a temper tantrum and went upstair in a huff, or a coach that successfully introduced a new formation into his side, went up to look at it tactically, and then was forced to take a stand by an unreasonable league?

Oh, and you likely won't see anyone from TFC correcting that story. It seems like everyone liked him enough (Mo and Cummins specifically) that they will let him have the credit (even if it isn't his to have) to help him land on his feet. Either way, I don't begrudge Carver at all, I wish him well, but I can't respect the way he walked out.

LucaGol
04-28-2009, 11:52 AM
Ummm...Lucagol....most of what a headcoach does - he does during the week @ practice; if he's done his job right, there's (hopefully) little enough to do during the match, other than the odd adjustment.

ask any coach if he'd rather miss the game or the practices leading up to it.

How can you not think Carver had a big hand in the last two games - everyone involved is there because of him.

People don't just become head coaches of pro franchises if they are comically inept - as you imply Carver is. Carver has coached and trained some of the greatest players to ever come out of the greatest league in the world. Sometimes great coaches don't mesh with their squads - I'm not implying this is the case here - it doesn't make them a poor choice.

Diminishing Carver's achievments is a poor reflection on you, not the other way around.

Credibility of post = lost

(refer to bolded part)

And please don't mention Alan Shearer. Linking Alan Shearer's great career and John Carver's influence while he was a caretaker would be a gross insult to the player.

As for greatest league in the world ... well ... I think players such as Pele and Maradona would have other opinions.

Fort York Redcoat
04-28-2009, 11:55 AM
Mind boggling post.

Even when a respected soccer journalist like Ben Knight lays out the story people close their eyes.

You know, no one is going to persecute you for once liking a coach that turned out to be mediocre at best.

e.g. I rate Stefan Frei right now ... if in 1 year he can't even hack being our 3rd string keeper ... should I still keep saying that he's bound for Europe and the best thing that's ever happened to TFC?

credibility of post=nil

Ya just did.:D

felipe
04-28-2009, 11:56 AM
Ha! It's like playing with a puppet!

tfc
04-28-2009, 11:57 AM
why are 3/4 of the people on this board so convinced that everyone is against them? it is absolutely appalling.

anything that happens to tfc is turned into some outrageous mlse, mo, carver, anselmi conspiracy against the supporters and how they are such victims. get over it and stop acting like a bunch of whiners. carver is telling you his reasons, are you really THAT cynical to think he would lie?

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-28-2009, 11:58 AM
There is only so much crap a person can deal with and JC had a lot to deal with from the clowns at MLS headquarters...being told to be on the field...thats BS...a manager can look after the club from any part of the stadium...MLS needs a house
cleaning.

LucaGol
04-28-2009, 12:00 PM
credibility of post=nil

Ya just did.:D

Did he have an about face that I missed?

I'm ripping the post because there are still claims that John Carver is the Rinus Michels/Helenio Herrera incarnate and that his reasons for leaving are valid.

Pachuco
04-28-2009, 12:00 PM
Awesome article Ben. I'm in complete agreement with everything you say. The team is much better off without him anyways. The only think he had before he quit was class, and in my opinion, he contradicted that once he quit on his team. Oh well, can't say I'm sorry to see him go.

Ben Knight
04-28-2009, 12:09 PM
I still like the man, folks. He's a great character, and I'm sad and sorry it didn't work out.

I'm just trying to unspin the story, because this is a rather crucial time in TFC team history.

backbeat
04-28-2009, 12:14 PM
I still like the man, folks. He's a great character, and I'm sad and sorry it didn't work out.

I'm just trying to unspin the story, because this is a rather crucial time in TFC team history.

but the fact of the matter is the 'All For One' is tighter and stronger now because of JC's actions, not the other way around as was seen at the beginning of the last match when the players went to the bench and huddled together 'all for one' - it was a statement of support and moving on - it was powerful, in my mind.

trane
04-28-2009, 12:48 PM
I still like the man, folks. He's a great character, and I'm sad and sorry it didn't work out.

I'm just trying to unspin the story, because this is a rather crucial time in TFC team history.

I like Carver as a man as well, and when I first saw the 4-3-3 employed, I first game him the credit but was wondering why it took so long to find this system which seemed so obvious to everyone. After, he guite it just does not add up. I will take him on his word. But cannot help but thinking that there is more.

keem-o-sabi
04-28-2009, 01:08 PM
I liked the man too, always seemed honest. After the first couple matches (at home)this year, I was like, this team is too lower league english to succeed. It somehow works for the USL clubs, but not in MLS really. Need to keep the ball on the ground, The first game was ugly, the 2nd more of the same. I thought our third home match we played much better, although we didn't have much width.

Anyway, I liked the guy, seemed like he was fun to be around, but didn't really rate him as a coach too much. Then again, I always go for a 4-3-3 formation. Maybe the switch to a 4-3-3 was more like the van basten situation with holland where the dutch players had an 'intervention' and told him what system they were going to play as he was screwing them up in the leadup to that tournament that made him look brilliant at the Euro's this year and now that he doesn't have those vereran players in his Ajax team telling him what to do, they suck....

Whatever the case is, we'll see after a few weeks if it was Carver, or what.

We have started to play much better, so good luck JC!

Northern Soul
04-28-2009, 01:23 PM
Credibility of post = lost

(refer to bolded part)

And please don't mention Alan Shearer. Linking Alan Shearer's great career and John Carver's influence while he was a caretaker would be a gross insult to the player.

As for greatest league in the world ... well ... I think players such as Pele and Maradona would have other opinions.

Pele and Maradona? What year are you living in? Last I checked, neither of them are still playing. As of right now, you hear most 'big name' players saying they want to play in the Premier League. Oh wait, it's English, so you disagree. Right.

ensco
04-28-2009, 01:30 PM
I still like the man, folks. He's a great character, and I'm sad and sorry it didn't work out.

I'm just trying to unspin the story, because this is a rather crucial time in TFC team history.

No good deed goes unpunished, Ben!

Oldtimer
04-28-2009, 01:34 PM
A terrible blog entry.

Ben, I've liked your blog so far, but show the man some respect.

It's not like I'm a Carver fan (more like undecided), but you don't treat someone like that, especially after they gave all out for the club.

Toronto_Bhoy
04-28-2009, 03:15 PM
First, before people start crappy on Mr. Knight, please remember his blog is an opinion and like everyone else here he's entitled to it.

Second, this Carver “thing” will all come clean in the wash.

I've said this numerous times here…this league is what it is…deal with it. I could have told John Carver before he signed a contract that the weakest link (and there are several) is…officiating.

Has he really done the club and his players a favour by taking the bullet? Does the inept refereeing suddenly get better? Does TFC get a break here or there because "he's"not on the touchline? Does outing referees and league officials help his players down the road?

Right boys…good luck…I’m away…

For all of John Carver’s passion and love its got us what? Who was the last manager in professional sports to quit because of shitting officiating? Who?

He couldn’t control himself and it cost him his job and probably his health. Regardless, he’s taken his ball, gone home and left the players standing in the street…

Good luck John…

James Oliphant
04-28-2009, 03:29 PM
A terrible blog entry.

Ben, I've liked your blog so far, but show the man some respect.

What exactly is disrespectful in pointing out that the Carver story and the Mo/Cummins story have some glaring inconsistencies between them? Or that Carver's own tale contradicts itself on a couple of occasions?


It's not like I'm a Carver fan (more like undecided), but you don't treat someone like that, especially after they gave all out for the club....and then abandoned them at a crucial time in their season.

:noidea:

johnmolinaro
04-28-2009, 05:54 PM
A few words in JC's defence....

1) everybody who ever played for him, with the exception on Jeff Cunningham, had a world of respect for John and played as hard as they could. JC got the most out of his players and inspired them.

2) having seen the majority of training sessions conducted by the team since the first season, I can tell you that John improved the team's work habits significantly compared to the first year when Mo was in charge

3) He was in the private box for the Chivas game, but he wasn't watching as a spectator. He was in constant communication with Chris and was coaching the team.

4) the 4-4-3 was John's baby. Chris and the rest of the staff may have voiced an opinion (thus making it as "group effort"), but trust me, it was John's baby. They've used that formation in training a lot before so it wasn't as bold a departure as some think.

5) John had spoken about his frustrations with MLS with myself and several other reporters who cover the team closely, so this was brewing for quite some time. Had he not decided to quit, he'd be coaching the team until the end of the year - he wasn't going anywhere, and certainly wasn't going to get fired (barring a catastrophic losing streak).

6) He will be missed by reporters such as myself. He was fairly honest, charming at times, and good-natured. I didn't always agree with John, but he was good for Toronto FC, totally changed the culture of the team and was a positive influence on the club.

John Molinaro

sully
04-28-2009, 06:00 PM
A few words in JC's defence....

1) everybody who ever played for him, with the exception on Jeff Cunningham, had a world of respect for John and played as hard as they could. JC got the most out of his players and inspired them.

2) having seen the majority of training sessions conducted by the team since the first season, I can tell you that John improved the team's work habits significantly compared to the first year when Mo was in charge

3) He was in the private box for the Chivas game, but he wasn't watching as a spectator. He was in constant communication with Chris and was coaching the team.

4) the 4-4-3 was John's baby. Chris and the rest of the staff may have voiced an opinion (thus making it as "group effort"), but trust me, it was John's baby. They've used that formation in training a lot before so it wasn't as bold a departure as some think.

5) John had spoken about his frustrations with MLS with myself and several other reporters who cover the team closely, so this was brewing for quite some time. Had he not decided to quit, he'd be coaching the team until the end of the year - he wasn't going anywhere, and certainly wasn't going to get fired (barring a catastrophic losing streak).

6) He will be missed by reporters such as myself. He was fairly honest, charming at times, and good-natured. I didn't always agree with John, but he was good for Toronto FC, totally changed the culture of the team and was a positive influence on the club.

John Molinaro

Apart from your points that are first-hand, (which I've no reason to doubt), it's been clear to me from what I've understood and heard from the media that I agree with everything you say. However, some people are skeptics, but I think the majority agree that JC will ultimately be missed, but his legacy will be positive for this club for a long time.

backbeat
04-28-2009, 06:03 PM
A few words in JC's defence....

1) everybody who ever played for him, with the exception on Jeff Cunningham, had a world of respect for John and played as hard as they could. JC got the most out of his players and inspired them.

2) having seen the majority of training sessions conducted by the team since the first season, I can tell you that John improved the team's work habits significantly compared to the first year when Mo was in charge

3) He was in the private box for the Chivas game, but he wasn't watching as a spectator. He was in constant communication with Chris and was coaching the team.

4) the 4-4-3 was John's baby. Chris and the rest of the staff may have voiced an opinion (thus making it as "group effort"), but trust me, it was John's baby. They've used that formation in training a lot before so it wasn't as bold a departure as some think.

5) John had spoken about his frustrations with MLS with myself and several other reporters who cover the team closely, so this was brewing for quite some time. Had he not decided to quit, he'd be coaching the team until the end of the year - he wasn't going anywhere, and certainly wasn't going to get fired (barring a catastrophic losing streak).

6) He will be missed by reporters such as myself. He was fairly honest, charming at times, and good-natured. I didn't always agree with John, but he was good for Toronto FC, totally changed the culture of the team and was a positive influence on the club.

John Molinaro


i couldn't agree more - hear, hear!!!

MG42
04-28-2009, 06:05 PM
A few words in JC's defence....

1) everybody who ever played for him, with the exception on Jeff Cunningham, had a world of respect for John and played as hard as they could. JC got the most out of his players and inspired them.

2) having seen the majority of training sessions conducted by the team since the first season, I can tell you that John improved the team's work habits significantly compared to the first year when Mo was in charge

3) He was in the private box for the Chivas game, but he wasn't watching as a spectator. He was in constant communication with Chris and was coaching the team.

4) the 4-4-3 was John's baby. Chris and the rest of the staff may have voiced an opinion (thus making it as "group effort"), but trust me, it was John's baby. They've used that formation in training a lot before so it wasn't as bold a departure as some think.

5) John had spoken about his frustrations with MLS with myself and several other reporters who cover the team closely, so this was brewing for quite some time. Had he not decided to quit, he'd be coaching the team until the end of the year - he wasn't going anywhere, and certainly wasn't going to get fired (barring a catastrophic losing streak).

6) He will be missed by reporters such as myself. He was fairly honest, charming at times, and good-natured. I didn't always agree with John, but he was good for Toronto FC, totally changed the culture of the team and was a positive influence on the club.

John Molinaro

I could have taken this a lot more seriously if you hadn't supported Cathal Kelly ;) just kidding, thanks for the info. One question though why did he mention after the dallas away march that his job was on the line?

johnmolinaro
04-28-2009, 06:08 PM
I could have taken this a lot more seriously if you hadn't supported Cathal Kelly ;) just kidding, thanks for the info. One question though why did he mention after the dallas away march that his job was on the line?

I think when he said that he knew the end was near and was close to calling it quits - and not that Mo was thinking about making a coaching change.

MG42
04-28-2009, 06:13 PM
I think when he said that he knew the end was near and was close to calling it quits - and not that Mo was thinking about making a coaching change.


Thanks John.

Redpunkfiddle
04-28-2009, 06:15 PM
A few words in JC's defence....


4) the 4-4-3 was John's baby. Chris and the rest of the staff may have voiced an opinion (thus making it as "group effort"), but trust me, it was John's baby. They've used that formation in training a lot before so it wasn't as bold a departure as some think.


John Molinaro

If Carver figured out how to play with 12 men, then he does deserve more credit...

J/K John, lots of people are making that mistake.. thanks for the insight.

MUFC_Niagara
04-28-2009, 06:19 PM
Laaaaaaaame, sorry Ben but I think you have been hanging out with giambac too long.

johnmolinaro
04-28-2009, 06:19 PM
If Carver figured out how to play with 12 men, then he does deserve more credit...

J/K John, lots of people are making that mistake.. thanks for the insight.

LOL. no worries. as for offering my insight, you're welcome - I just wanted to bring some balance to the discussion.

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-28-2009, 06:21 PM
Right ... it's just a coincidence that we played the 2 best games of TFC's existence with Carver not on the sidelines :rolleyes:

If we win the NCC and the MLS Championship ... is John Carver going to take the credit for that too.

Honestly, I read this guy like a book the first time I heard him speak. He came into the league thinking that he was above it, and that's pretty much how he left. Only problem with that is not only was he not above it .... he wasn't even good enough to be in it.


the fact remains that CARVER helped 2 games ,just some fans are to thick to appreciate it. This man was the best TFC could have had and finding another quality manager like that wont happen soon. Stop
draming of the MLS cup..were still a year or so away from that yet...even the NCC is of little importance compared to the league, the NCC is a crappy 3 team tournament..you have a 33.33% chance of winning it before a ball is kicked. TFC needed Carver..now were screwed!!

Marc"2L"
04-28-2009, 06:28 PM
I like Carver.
Shit didn't work out.
Nothing said in this forum will sway what will become of the team now. (ie: where we finish)

Can't wait to keep the krew winless.

greatwhitenorf
04-28-2009, 06:59 PM
What if JC is sticking around and is covertly and defiantly parked by the club for upcoming games in an elevated observation post and relaying tactical info to the bench?

Or standing amidst the RPB section and having a few hundred of his closest new friends singing that information to the bench?

Be glad to hear of either situation working out for TFC's benefit.

Marc"2L"
04-28-2009, 07:05 PM
Or standing amidst the RPB section and having a few hundred of his closest new friends singing that information to the bench?



Hey TFC, if you wanted to become a corky legendary club........

Roogsy
04-28-2009, 07:25 PM
A few words in JC's defence....

1) everybody who ever played for him, with the exception on Jeff Cunningham, had a world of respect for John and played as hard as they could. JC got the most out of his players and inspired them.

2) having seen the majority of training sessions conducted by the team since the first season, I can tell you that John improved the team's work habits significantly compared to the first year when Mo was in charge

3) He was in the private box for the Chivas game, but he wasn't watching as a spectator. He was in constant communication with Chris and was coaching the team.

4) the 4-4-3 was John's baby. Chris and the rest of the staff may have voiced an opinion (thus making it as "group effort"), but trust me, it was John's baby. They've used that formation in training a lot before so it wasn't as bold a departure as some think.

5) John had spoken about his frustrations with MLS with myself and several other reporters who cover the team closely, so this was brewing for quite some time. Had he not decided to quit, he'd be coaching the team until the end of the year - he wasn't going anywhere, and certainly wasn't going to get fired (barring a catastrophic losing streak).

6) He will be missed by reporters such as myself. He was fairly honest, charming at times, and good-natured. I didn't always agree with John, but he was good for Toronto FC, totally changed the culture of the team and was a positive influence on the club.

John Molinaro

Thanks for your perspective John. Every point here reinforces my opinions on Carver.

LucaGol
04-28-2009, 07:47 PM
A few words in JC's defence....

1) everybody who ever played for him, with the exception on Jeff Cunningham, had a world of respect for John and played as hard as they could. JC got the most out of his players and inspired them.

2) having seen the majority of training sessions conducted by the team since the first season, I can tell you that John improved the team's work habits significantly compared to the first year when Mo was in charge

3) He was in the private box for the Chivas game, but he wasn't watching as a spectator. He was in constant communication with Chris and was coaching the team.

4) the 4-4-3 was John's baby. Chris and the rest of the staff may have voiced an opinion (thus making it as "group effort"), but trust me, it was John's baby. They've used that formation in training a lot before so it wasn't as bold a departure as some think.

5) John had spoken about his frustrations with MLS with myself and several other reporters who cover the team closely, so this was brewing for quite some time. Had he not decided to quit, he'd be coaching the team until the end of the year - he wasn't going anywhere, and certainly wasn't going to get fired (barring a catastrophic losing streak).

6) He will be missed by reporters such as myself. He was fairly honest, charming at times, and good-natured. I didn't always agree with John, but he was good for Toronto FC, totally changed the culture of the team and was a positive influence on the club.

John Molinaro

I'm not here to cause problems, but like as was the intent of Ben Knight's article ... I am ardent supporter of logic and am still searching to find an answer I can accept.

Issue 1: John Carver "implements" this fabulous new 4-3-3 system. But suddenly, not only has the formation changed, the philosophy of all the 10 outfield players have changed. Pass and move, off the ball hard work, ball on the deck.

Not only has he instituted this new free flowing style ... but it works ... and he knows it works because he has seen it from a bird's eye perspective in the press box. He is thrilled with his mastermind creation.

Issue 2: Rather than end his hiatus from the touchline and take credit for this innovative new style he's concocted, he says "I'm going to stay in the pressbox and continue to let most people assume that things are working because I'm not down there" (which runs counter to his personality)

Issue 3: After the FC Dallas game he goes off on a rant letting slip that his job is on the line. If your regular John Doe is not succeeding at his job ... he doesn't automatically assume he's on the chopping block. He gets fair warning, this is how the world usually works. Suddenly 2 games later, he's no longer with the organization.

Issue 4: If the MLS told him to go by the touchline ... why did he not just go?
He's the coach of the team after all ... is that not where he wanted to be? Regardless of this sort of precedent set by other managers in England as has been brought up before, was he planning on observing from the press box for the rest of the season?

Issue 5: Why did Mo Johnston give his first on air interview during the Chivas game, coinciding with John Carver's absence from the field?


Many questions with yet no valid answers.

In summary, John Carver ... good guy, likeable, honest, average coach (depending on your previous assertions of the man entrenching yourself in such a staunch position that changing it later would seem impossible), ... left under dubious circumstances.

Ben Knight
04-28-2009, 07:51 PM
John is a fine reporter, and I'm never comfortable disagreeing with him. But on this story, we disagree. I simply do not buy Carver as the sole author of this new system.

H Bomb
04-28-2009, 07:57 PM
careful who you back ben, supporting lucagol in anything on here may be a bad idea :D

also Luca is out to lunch...we've played fluid football on many occasions including last year...Luca is one of those folks who only remembers the shit and therefor has nothing else to talk about.

sully
04-28-2009, 07:58 PM
[quote=LucaGol;497032]I'm not here to cause problems, but like as was the intent of Ben Knight's article ... I am ardent supporter of logic and am still searching to find an answer I can accept.

Issue 1: - I don't see an 'issue'? I agree that JC would have been pleased.

Issue 2: - What I heard was that Carver felt is had a better view from the stand and was in regular communication with the touchline. Also, I heard that carver felt the team would be better served by him being there, as he felt his presense was detrimental on the touchline based on past MLS experience, which has been well documented. I don't know what the 'issue' is here?

Issue 3: - Carver's troubles with MLS didn't start 2 games ago, it's been ongoing...and as reported, JC was feeling inclined to walk away for quite a while as he felt the team was being damaged by MLS treatment of him..

Issue 4: - Why should he let MLS dictate how he decides to manage his own business if he believed the team would be better served by his better vantage point in the stand? That's just ridiculous...enough said.

Issue 5:- what's the issue? The media, fans wanted information.

Yohan
04-28-2009, 08:00 PM
also Luca is out to lunch...we've played fluid football on many occasions including last year...Luca is one of those folks who only remembers the shit and therefor has nothing else to talk about.
this is true. TFC has played fluid, passing football, but just not consistently.

All the elements of 4-3-3 was already in place. (didn't TFC play some 4-3-3 last year? or was it 4-2-3-1)

trying to find logic is fine. but for all the skeptics, where are the evidence to support your own theory?

so far, everything we've heard, some from pretty darn credible people, supports JC and Mo's story

LucaGol
04-28-2009, 08:01 PM
careful who you back ben, supporting lucagol in anything on here may be a bad idea :D

also Luca is out to lunch...we've played fluid football on many occasions including last year...Luca is one of those folks who only remembers the shit and therefor has nothing else to talk about.

Ben's on this board ... he knows what's said and not said.

Please don't talk to what I've posted before or what you think about it .. how about trying to provide answers the issues I've raised.

If you've think we've played fluid football before, I disagree with you. Not to the level that we've all witnessed in the past 2 games.

Don't let my previous affirmations of JC (as I stated) disrupt my argument, which I do believe is shared by several.

H Bomb
04-28-2009, 08:04 PM
.. how about trying to provide answers the issues I've raised.

l.

the "issues" you raise, is shit you make up...so I dont have to comment on it....even if you end up being right, it's only happenstance, and remains shit you made up

sully
04-28-2009, 08:06 PM
High-five, Luca.

John is a fine reporter, and I'm never comfortable disagreeing with him. But on this story, we disagree. I simply do not buy Carver as the sole author of this new system.

I'd like to think that of course the head-coach has the final say on what system is put in place, but I think it's unlikely that the head-coach doesn't work with his assistants..there is no sole author

LucaGol
04-28-2009, 08:13 PM
[quote=LucaGol;497032]I'm not here to cause problems, but like as was the intent of Ben Knight's article ... I am ardent supporter of logic and am still searching to find an answer I can accept.

Issue 1: - I don't see an 'issue'? I agree that JC would have been pleased.

I was being slightly facetious. I raised the point to bring to light that suddenly, magically, after many hours of TFC games hardened in the philosophy of hoof and hope, route one, 4-4-2, ... lazy football, ... the message finally changes. But who delivered it is the question? You would think that the fact that JC's new tactics had worked to such a degree would be motive enough for him to want to stay with the team at least for another few weeks. But ... no ... abrupt ending. Just like that.


Issue 2: - What I heard was that Carver felt is had a better view from the stand and was in regular communication with the touchline. Also, I heard that carver felt the team would be better served by him being there, as he felt his presense was detrimental on the touchline based on past MLS experience, which has been well documented. I don't know what the 'issue' is here?

Look, this is not the NFL. JC was not calling in the plays. Touchline presence is important. What pray tell do you think JC was telling Cummins to do and say ... JC: "tell Vitti to run into space" ... CC: "Vitti, run into space and combine well with DD while you're at it".

4-3-3 is just a formation on paper. There was one glaring difference between games 1 to 5 and games 6 and 7 ... it's called effort. You know, work rate? There's a reason this change happened, and I believe it had nothing to do with tactics.




Issue 3: - Carver's troubles with MLS didn't start 2 games ago, it's been ongoing...and as reported, JC was feeling inclined to walk away for quite a while as he felt the team was being damaged by MLS treatment of him..

Carver's "trouble's" with the MLS were self-created. Every coach in the league deals with the same rules and constraints. If he was feeling inclined to walk away he should have left the team in the offseason.


Issue 4: - Why should he let MLS dictate how he decides to manage his own business if he believed the team would be better served by his better vantage point in the stand? That's just ridiculous...enough said.

MLS should not dictate how he manages the team. I agree. I have issue with John Carver wanting to stay in the press box. You are the coach ... go coach.


Issue 5:- what's the issue? The media, fans wanted information.

Telling people you are about to be sacked/fired/canned and blaming it all on a hopeless referee is not information the media needs. It's called desperation.

LucaGol
04-28-2009, 08:18 PM
the "issues" you raise, is shit you make up...so I dont have to comment on it....even if you end up being right, it's only happenstance, and remains shit you made up


The dictionary:

Define: Theory

several related propositions that explain some domain of inquiry. Also called a school or paradigm.


The dictionary according to Professor H Bomb:

Define: Theory

"shit you make up"

H Bomb
04-28-2009, 08:19 PM
theories require information

johnmolinaro
04-28-2009, 08:22 PM
I'd like to think that of course the head-coach has the final say on what system is put in place, but I think it's unlikely that the head-coach doesn't work with his assistants..there is no sole author

And you're more than entitled to that opinion.

It wasn't my goal or intention to convince anyone on this board into seeing things from my point of view.

I only wanted to present the facts as I saw them - as an insider who is around the team a lot (not just during games) and is "in the know" more than the average person - so you can get a complete picture and decide for yourselves.

Consider what I and others have said, and draw your own conclusions.

John

LucaGol
04-28-2009, 08:26 PM
theories require information

Did you even read what I posted?

I'm not railing on anyone ... I'm searching for a plausible explanation and correlation between the events I've listed.

Ben Knight
04-28-2009, 08:28 PM
There, John and I agree -- word for word.

We're just trying to dig it out, folks. Of course, it's ultimately your decision.

:-)

H Bomb
04-28-2009, 08:28 PM
yes i read it....want some plausible explanations....well take all those explanations you've been given, by the only people who know anything, and listen to them. You can assume everyone is lying all you want.

TFCREDNWHITE
04-28-2009, 08:29 PM
I think it was a combination of both the MLS being douchebags and shoving their nose into places where it DOESN'T belong and MLSE "gentley" and "lovingly" showing Carver the door, and giving Carver a little bit of "be quiet about MLSE" money....

It can be the truth from both angles....a little bit of column A and little bit of column B.....

H Bomb
04-28-2009, 08:33 PM
There, John and I agree -- word for word.

We're just trying to dig it out, folks. Of course, it's ultimately your decision.

:-)

hey man, you're doing a great job, but I have to disagree with your last point. He either left for the reasons he stated, or there's something else completely new wee haven't heard about...one of the problems with modern journalism is that it has become too editorial. As if we all have equal opinions on matters, but in these cases that's not the truth...the truth is the truth and that's what we want. You guys (john M) are in a position of access and information and if you get any we'd appreciate that being sent our way. As we have to deal with so much BS speculation on a day to day basis

sully
04-28-2009, 08:33 PM
wow...I think this could go on for a while, so I'll give you my response and leave it alone as I want to have my tea.. (by the way, I've noticed that we tend to disagree a lot, but as long as where all civil it's all good..I'll put my thought in bold to separate text)


[quote=sully;497041]

I was being slightly facetious. I raised the point to bring to light that suddenly, magically, after many hours of TFC games hardened in the philosophy of hoof and hope, route one, 4-4-2, ... lazy football, ... the message finally changes. But who delivered it is the question? You would think that the fact that JC's new tactics had worked to such a degree would be motive enough for him to want to stay with the team at least for another few weeks. But ... no ... abrupt ending. Just like that.

- My sense is that it was not an abrupt ending to JC. As has been widely reported (as least insofar as TFC goes) JC's problems with MLS started last year, one example being the league making a DVD of him on the touchline for referees to view - that's atrocious behaviour on the part of the league. 'Who deliver the new tactics?' - well, I'd have to say JC and his assistants did...to suggest that Carver was not involved in developing and improving this team doesn't make sense. TFC's better play didn't happen over night..this team has been improving steadily since carver took over 15 months ago. The football we say the last two games is great...but this team has player better football in the past than other times..I just hopw we can maintain this good form.

NFL? - personally I don't even know the rules of that game but I think that in football you do not 'call plays' probably like in NFL. I think we know that Carver was in constant communication with his assistants when he was in the stands...I don't mean to imply that you don't know your football but yes there is a lot of communication, a lot of movements to judge, to find trends over the field etc.

Look, this is not the NFL. JC was not calling in the plays. Touchline presence is important. What pray tell do you think JC was telling Cummins to do and say ... JC: "tell Vitti to run into space" ... CC: "Vitti, run into space and combine well with DD while you're at it".

4-3-3 is just a formation on paper. There was one glaring difference between games 1 to 5 and games 6 and 7 ... it's called effort. You know, work rate? There's a reason this change happened, and I believe it had nothing to do with tactics.

Again, lets hopw the better work ethic continues, we've had our ups and downs in the past - lets hope it continues.. I also belive that Carver instilled a general better work ethic in the team



Carver's "trouble's" with the MLS were self-created. Every coach in the league deals with the same rules and constraints. If he was feeling inclined to walk away he should have left the team in the offseason.

I don't know what the experiences of other coaches have been...I cab only look at what's in front of me...if you know that other managers haven't had difficulties with the league, you know better than me.

MLS should not dictate how he manages the team. I agree. I have issue with John Carver wanting to stay in the press box. You are the coach ... go coach.

During the match you are not coaching, that is for the practice field (well if we ever get a real one ;)). During the match it's about observing what's happening and making decisions based on that..

Telling people you are about to be sacked/fired/canned and blaming it all on a hopeless referee is not information the media needs. It's called desperation.

Well, based on what I've read, JC was at the point where his frustration was too much for him...JC has also said repeately in the past that the press and fans should leave the players alone and that he bears responsibility.. and yes, he was deperate it seems...desperate to make an untenable position work in the midst of a meddling league office..

LucaGol
04-28-2009, 08:51 PM
wow...I think this could go on for a while, so I'll give you my response and leave it alone as I want to have my tea.. (by the way, I've noticed that we tend to disagree a lot, but as long as where all civil it's all good..I'll put my thought in bold to separate text)

[quote=LucaGol;497059]

Well, based on what I've read, JC was at the point where his frustration was too much for him...JC has also said repeately in the past that the press and fans should leave the players alone and that he bears responsibility.. and yes, he was deperate it seems...desperate to make an untenable position work in the midst of a meddling league office..

We have fundamental disagreements on the performance of the team. On these issues, I doubt either one of us can convince the other of the intricacies that we may or may not be observing during the run of play.

Bottom line:
1. JC says his "job is on the line"
2. Next game Carver is in the press box
3. New system in place for this game (not only to formation but with the inclusion of Dichio, Vitti and Velez), team plays drastically different ... interesting developments from a coach that believes his team "dominated" (JC's words) the better portion of the previous game only to be done in by incompetent refereeing
4. Appearance of Mo Johnston in on air interview
5. Carver reported to once again be in the press box for next game
6. MLS takes issue with is (which has yet to be confirmed from what I've seen) and tells him to take his place on the touchline
7. Carver resigns


That's it. Take away from it what you will.

H Bomb
04-28-2009, 08:55 PM
Bottom line:
1. JC says his "job is on the line"
2. Next game Carver is in the press box
3. New system in place for this game (not only to formation but with the inclusion of Dichio, Vitti and Velez), team plays drastically different ... interesting developments from a coach that believes his team "dominated" (JC's words) the better portion of the previous game only to be done in by incompetent refereeing
4. Appearance of Mo Johnston in on air interview
5. Carver reported to once again be in the press box for next game
6. MLS takes issue with is (which has yet to be confirmed from what I've seen) and tells him to take his place on the touchline
7. Carver resigns


That's it. Take away from it what you will.

things you missed.

After Carver resigns Mo explains his leaving while leaving major holes in the story.

Today Carver does radio/newspaper interviews explaining why he left and his thought processes on these things. It needs to be repeated that you are just choosing to ignore giant chunks of info

Blizzard
04-28-2009, 09:01 PM
Well, based on what I've read, JC was at the point where his frustration was too much for him...JC has also said repeately in the past that the press and fans should leave the players alone and that he bears responsibility.. and yes, he was deperate it seems...desperate to make an untenable position work in the midst of a meddling league office..


Agreed.

Has nobody here ever been so angry about a situation in the workplace that they haven't walked away of their own volition? It happens! It just happened again!

B

LucaGol
04-28-2009, 09:01 PM
things you missed.

After Carver resigns Mo explains his leaving while leaving major holes in the story.

Today Carver does radio/newspaper interviews explaining why he left and his thought processes on these things. It needs to be repeated that you are just choosing to ignore giant chunks of info

Those "giant chunks of info" are focal to what I'm posting ...

The explanation for why he left is what I'm taking issue with.

H Bomb
04-28-2009, 09:03 PM
exactly...you can assume they're lying all you want. Please, feel free. But every time I see you make a baseless speculative accusation I'll be all over it. You've earned that.

LucaGol
04-28-2009, 09:04 PM
Agreed.

Has nobody here ever been so angry about a situation in the workplace that they haven't walked away of their own volition? It happens! It just happened again!

B

When you're disillusioned with your workplace, you don't tell people "your job is on the line".

By admitting that your "job is on the line" and your feeling pressure to perform, that would seem to indicate that your superiors are disillusioned with you and not vice versa.

SoccMan
04-28-2009, 09:06 PM
Enough with all these silly excuses, a good coach can coach in any league and get results no matter what the rules are. John Carver gave it a try he failed it's as simple as that, no matter what every coach in this league coaches within the same type of rules and regulations and with the same type of referees, it's the same for every MLS coach. Carver failed it's as simple as that time to move on.

TFCREDNWHITE
04-28-2009, 09:06 PM
Agreed.

Has nobody here ever been so angry about a situation in the workplace that they haven't walked away of their own volition? It happens! It just happened again!

B

Yeah but his "workplace" is BMO Field for the most part and his employer is MLSE....

He keeps mentioning this douchebag ref named weyland and some other 4th official loser.....well...He would only have to "see" those guys every once in a while, they don't really poison the workplace environment do they???

So was is MLSE that was aligning with the League, and pressuring him to leave?? Who knows maybe they gave him some "shut up" money....

LucaGol
04-28-2009, 09:08 PM
exactly...you can assume they're lying all you want. Please, feel free. But every time I see you make a baseless speculative accusation I'll be all over it. You've earned that.

Where are these baseless speculative accusations? ... All I've done is state the "known's" in this equation.

I've left the speculating up in the air.

H Bomb
04-28-2009, 09:14 PM
jeeeeeesus...that really long bullshity post on the previous page...that one that says "I'm still looking for a valid answer to these questions". Those questions have been answered....again you dont have to believe those answers...but you seem to believe you know what you're talking about so you must believe anything you want to. You insinuate an alterior motive that you have no information on....therefor you are useless... the mods tolerate you....but i wont. enjoy

rocker
04-28-2009, 09:19 PM
If you've think we've played fluid football before, I disagree with you. Not to the level that we've all witnessed in the past 2 games.

Actually, I think our most fluid game was Game 1 in KC.
Should been 5-2... TFC thoroughly dominated huge portions of that match, playing a fluid style.
It was a joy to watch.

sully
04-28-2009, 09:21 PM
The explanation for why he left is what I'm taking issue with.

What are the sorts of explanations do you think there could be?

That Mo fired him? that the players rebelled against him? that he lost interest in Toronto and couldn't settle here? That his health meant he couldn't continue? That his wife missed Newcasle? That he was in a state in depression because of Newcastke impending relegation?

I'm trying to understand your perspective but I can't. You could maybe help me out...what is an example of an explantion that you think it could be?

You take issue with someone bacause he felt his position was untenable for the reasons he has already outlined. Please tell me what sort of explantion you would like...just an example - I won't hold it to you..just trying to understand what you are getting at:noidea:

LucaGol
04-28-2009, 09:22 PM
jeeeeeesus...that really long bullshity post on the previous page...that one that says "I'm still looking for a valid answer to these questions". Those questions have been answered....again you dont have to believe those answers...but you seem to believe you know what you're talking about so you must believe anything you want to. You insinuate an alterior motive that you have no information on....therefor you are useless... the mods tolerate you....but i wont. enjoy

You are right, I don't have any information. I'm not Mo Johnston and and I'm not John Carver. You got me.

So let's all just believe what we've been told, because no one's ever told a lie or a spun a story through the media before :rolleyes:

What has been said may in fact be true, who knows. All I'm doing is trying is to imagine a scenario, which appears to add up in some capacity, that what we've been told is not entirely the truth, and posting it in a discussion forum. Imagine that.

Uh K.

Now stop beefing with me. We disagree. The End.

H Bomb
04-28-2009, 09:25 PM
What has been said may in fact be true, who knows. All I'm doing is trying is to imagine a scenario, which appears to add up in some capacity, that what we've been told is not entirely the truth, and posting it in a discussion forum. Imagine that.


Now stop beefing with me. We disagree. The End.

what you're doing is finding a way to be even more negative about a negative topic...this seems to be your only talent...You've said "here's a bunch of info, lets ignore it and bitch"....and no I wont stop "beefing" with you on here, so get used to me.

johnmolinaro
04-28-2009, 09:25 PM
I'd like to think that of course the head-coach has the final say on what system is put in place, but I think it's unlikely that the head-coach doesn't work with his assistants..there is no sole author

Regarding the whole "job is on the line" comment, I wouldn't read too much into that.

People always say stuff in the heat of the moment that doesn't make logical sense, comes out wrong or is just plain hyperbole.

Case in point: when Carver told reporters last season that he would quit if Mo didn't sign a DP by the time the 2009 season starts. That was just John speaking off the cuff and not choosing his words carefully. I don't think anybody at the time expected him to follow through. Instead, we all recognized it for what it was.

From everything from that I've gathered from my sources, John left of his own accord and was not pushed out. Whether he was right or wrong to leave so early in the season is another debate entirely.

I'm interviewing John on Thursday so I'll share anything interesting from that conversation with you all.

John Molinaro

LucaGol
04-28-2009, 09:26 PM
What are the sorts of explanations do you think there could be?

That Mo fired him? that the players rebelled against him? that he lost interest in Toronto and couldn't settle here? That his health meant he couldn't continue? That his wife missed Newcasle? That he was in a state in depression because of Newcastke impending relegation?

I'm trying to understand your perspective but I can't. You could maybe help me out...what is an example of an explantion that you think it could be?

You take issue with someone bacause he felt his position was untenable for the reasons he has already outlined. Please tell me what sort of explantion you would like...just an example - I won't hold it to you..just trying to understand what you are getting at:noidea:

You did a pretty good job there yourself ... pick one of those and insert my name beside it.

rocker
04-28-2009, 09:26 PM
So let's all just believe what we've been told, because no one's ever told a lie or a spun a story through the media before :rolleyes:.

Yeah, and nobody's ever told the truth the media... ;)

LucaGol
04-28-2009, 09:28 PM
what you're doing is finding a way to be even more negative about a negative topic...this seems to be your only talent...You've said "here's a bunch of info, lets ignore it and bitch"....and no I wont stop "beefing" with you on here, so get used to me.

I believe the title of the thread has something to do with Carver's story not squaring up. No?

sully
04-28-2009, 09:30 PM
You did a pretty good job there yourself ... pick one of those and insert my name beside it.

ok then....we are going in a circle. You don't believe John Carver and I do and it seems nobody is going to change your mind.

H Bomb
04-28-2009, 09:32 PM
so if the thread was about holocaust denial you could get away with that within the thread without being called out? (EXTREME EXAMPLE ALERT!!!!!)

and as I mentioned in a previous post, information is a journalists friend, Ben may have some, he may be speculating...and as I also mentioned earlier, if it's just his editorializing then I dont find it interesting

TheRenter
04-28-2009, 09:33 PM
I find it quite easy to believe that Carver had had has fill. Its not like he is the type that could just shrug off perceived injustices or inadquacies - they would eat at him 24/7. He lives and breathes football, every moment of his waking is dedicated to making his team better.

If he truly believed his mere presence was hurting the team - he would quit.

I suggest you review some of our earlier games - there is not a great deal of differnce; just a continuing steady improvement game to game.

completely seconded!

sad to see Carver go, but on the other side of things; I am glad to see him move on....

...JOHN "THE MARTYR" CARVER!!

good luck to you brother, wherever it is you end up..

LucaGol
04-28-2009, 09:33 PM
ok then....we are going in a circle. You don't believe John Carver and I do and it seems nobody is going to change your mind.

You omitted the part where no one is going to change yours.

I'm not saying I don't believe what I've been told. I'm just skeptical of the truth as has been laid out in what I feel is it's truncated form.

Why is that lynch-worthy?

sully
04-28-2009, 09:37 PM
You omitted the part where no one is going to change yours.

I'm not saying I don't believe what I've been told. I'm just skeptical of the truth as has been laid out in what I feel is it's truncated form.

Why is that lynch-worthy?

I don't have a reason to doubt the rationale the Carver presented today on FAN590.... and by the way, usually things are not straightforward in life and in any relationship and it was a dysfunctional relationship that Carver had with the MLS FO.

Lynch-worthy? - I don't get what you mean.

sully
04-28-2009, 09:43 PM
[quote=LucaGol;497188]
I'm not saying I don't believe what I've been told. I'm just skeptical of the truth as has been laid out in what I feel is it's truncated form.

quote]

Calling John and Ben! When the dust settles you might write a lenghtly and thorough piece on this episode...although I think the MLS FO would be displeased and JC's private life may be invaded.

LucaGol
04-28-2009, 09:44 PM
I don't have a reason to doubt the rationale the Carver presented today on FAN590.... and by the way, usually things are not straightforward in life and in any relationship and it was a dysfunctional relationship that Carver had with the MLS FO.

Lynch-worthy? - I don't get what you mean.

It seems hard to imagine that Carver's rapport with the MLS was damaged to the extent that JC would throw away a good paying job, a team that was his, and say goodbye to supporters he loved, just to prove some sort of point. Was all the good not worth fighting through all "bad"? (ie Garber, MLS refs)

To be honest, at the stage he is in his career, coaching TFC was a dream job.

sully
04-28-2009, 09:47 PM
It seems hard to imagine that Carver's rapport with the MLS was damaged to the extent that JC would throw away a good paying job, a team that was his, and say goodbye to supporters he loved, just to prove some sort of point. Was all the good not worth fighting through all the bad? (ie Garber, MLS refs)

To be honest, at the stage he is in his career, coaching TFC was a dream job.

Well, yes it is hard to imagine..but this is the "general" fact as JC himself has said...there is no good out of this whole thing..why would he fight those in power..to what end..who knows maybe he's made his money by this stage in the life..and he said that his remaining in his position was damaging to the team...and JC would have no reason that I can think of in lying to the fans, press and anyone else interested...

johnmolinaro
04-28-2009, 09:48 PM
[quote=LucaGol;497188]
I'm not saying I don't believe what I've been told. I'm just skeptical of the truth as has been laid out in what I feel is it's truncated form.

quote]

Calling John and Ben! When the dust settles you might write a lenghtly and thorough piece on this episode...although I think the MLS FO would be displeased and JC's private life may be invaded.

I'll write something after I interview Carver on Thursday and that will likely be the end of it for me.

TFCREDNWHITE
04-28-2009, 09:50 PM
"I'm still looking for a valid answer to these questions". Those questions have been answered....again you dont have to believe those answers...but you seem to believe you know what you're talking about so you must believe anything you want to. You insinuate an alterior motive that you have no information on

Why r u giving LucaGol such a hard time....

How about this angle.....

Mo Johnston, Robbo and Brennan all were shocked that Carver completed, signed and handed in his resignation....Even they are baffled....

So if they are baffled, why can't we be baffled???

Every team/coach has a REF that they dislike because there happens to be a major rift in the calls....

A lot of people in the NBA say the League gave prime directives to make calls in favour of the Celtics last year...

Or a certain REF making calls one sided because he had people laying bets down for himself and others, which the FBI cracked...

But even with all that, never once have you seen a coach QUIT because of it!?

sully
04-28-2009, 09:51 PM
[quote=sully;497202]

I'll write something after I interview Carver on Thursday and that will likely be the end of it for me.

Thanks John...please tell him that he is always welcome at BMO Field on behalf of myself and I hope most others. Personally, I view him as one of us now....a fan of TFC (even if we are second to Newcastle).

TFCREDNWHITE
04-28-2009, 09:57 PM
It seems hard to imagine that Carver's rapport with the MLS was damaged to the extent that JC would throw away a good paying job, a team that was his, and say goodbye to supporters he loved, just to prove some sort of point. Was all the good not worth fighting through all "bad"? (ie Garber, MLS refs)

To be honest, at the stage he is in his career, coaching TFC was a dream job.

I agree...It just doesn't ADD up......

I mean fuck, I have huge problems with how the league is run in terms of referee's, salary cap, playing games on FiFa International dates, etc...etc.....but even with all that anger built up inside of me, i still continue to watch the league and support our team....

alexintoronto
04-28-2009, 10:33 PM
I'm interviewing John on Thursday so I'll share anything interesting from that conversation with you all.

John Molinaro


Ask him about these from Paul Beirne's Twitter:

Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me. .....carry on....about 2 hours ago (http://twitter.com/Paulbeirne/status/1644422785) from Tweetie (http://www.atebits.com/)


Hey there sports fans. Don't believe everything you read - sometimes the interviewee has an agenda! Gasp!about 5 hours ago (http://twitter.com/Paulbeirne/status/1643152424) from Tweetie (http://www.atebits.com/)

GeorgeB
04-28-2009, 10:48 PM
Ask him about these from Paul Beirne's Twitter:

Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me. .....carry on....about 2 hours ago (http://twitter.com/Paulbeirne/status/1644422785) from Tweetie (http://www.atebits.com/)


Hey there sports fans. Don't believe everything you read - sometimes the interviewee has an agenda! Gasp!about 5 hours ago (http://twitter.com/Paulbeirne/status/1643152424) from Tweetie (http://www.atebits.com/)talking about the quitter on twitter.lol ,dont let the door hit you on the way out and good riddance.lets move on.there is only one Chris Cummins !

ensco
04-28-2009, 10:51 PM
Ask him about these from Paul Beirne's Twitter:

Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me. .....carry on....about 2 hours ago (http://twitter.com/Paulbeirne/status/1644422785) from Tweetie (http://www.atebits.com/)


Hey there sports fans. Don't believe everything you read - sometimes the interviewee has an agenda! Gasp!about 5 hours ago (http://twitter.com/Paulbeirne/status/1643152424) from Tweetie (http://www.atebits.com/)

That is an interesting find.

mlsintoronto
04-28-2009, 10:53 PM
Ask him about these from Paul Beirne's Twitter:

Me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me me. .....carry on....about 2 hours ago (http://twitter.com/Paulbeirne/status/1644422785) from Tweetie (http://www.atebits.com/)


Hey there sports fans. Don't believe everything you read - sometimes the interviewee has an agenda! Gasp!about 5 hours ago (http://twitter.com/Paulbeirne/status/1643152424) from Tweetie (http://www.atebits.com/)

oh dear! :eek: one's an inside joke to a small group of friends who are following me, an the other is me trying to be funny with the same group! those aren't anything to do about tfc!

I got some replies on twitter too ... apparently people are putting two plus two together and getting five?

these tweets have nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
:noidea:

ensco
04-28-2009, 10:55 PM
oh dear! :eek: one's an inside joke to a small group of friends who are following me, an the other is me trying to be funny with the same group! those aren't anything to do about tfc!

I got some replies on twitter too ... apparently people are putting two plus two together and getting five?

these tweets have nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
:noidea:

Ok, so what's your opinion about the topic of this thread? :)

GeorgeB
04-28-2009, 10:56 PM
oh dear! :eek: one's an inside joke to a small group of friends who are following me, an the other is me trying to be funny with the same group! those aren't anything to do about tfc!

I got some replies on twitter too ... apparently people are putting two plus two together and getting five?

these tweets have nothing to do with the topic of this thread.
:noidea:must be something in the beer at the STAR bar :noidea:

mlsintoronto
04-28-2009, 10:57 PM
Ok, so what's your opinion about the topic of this thread? :)

oh - I have one....but I think its best kept for the memoirs...

mlsintoronto
04-28-2009, 11:02 PM
must be something in the beer at the STAR bar :noidea:

now: that tweet was all about the topic of this thread. :rolleyes:

TFCREDNWHITE
04-28-2009, 11:06 PM
oh - I have one....but I think its best kept for the memoirs...


Hey @ H-Bomb, Paul pretty much proves that there is a whole bunch of shit that happens behind the scenes that can't really be talked about or divulged......

H Bomb
04-28-2009, 11:09 PM
firstly it's a good thing you're not a lawyer, and secondly, i'm sure there is, I just mentioned that Lucagol was making shit up

TFCREDNWHITE
04-28-2009, 11:19 PM
firstly it's a good thing you're not a lawyer, and secondly, i'm sure there is, I just mentioned that Lucagol was making shit up


***yawn***.......I guess being oblivious is what you kids are doing these days....aaahh, to be young again....

I'll be sure to buy Paul's memoirs for you when they come out...

H Bomb
04-28-2009, 11:20 PM
that one was confusing

TFCREDNWHITE
04-28-2009, 11:35 PM
that one was confusing

you're confusing....

you try and give lucagol shit, and then Paul basically confirms that their is a lot to be said but can't....and he'll leave it for the "memoirs"....and you just plug your ears and start yelling..LOL hahah you are too funny Hbomb, way too funny!

H Bomb
04-28-2009, 11:37 PM
it made sense until i plugged my ears

but thank you, i am funny

ensco
04-29-2009, 07:03 AM
Why won't the NBA let Doc Rivers be his own man? I think they've got it in for him.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=A9G_bwp0OfhJjHEAbwm8vLYF?slug=ap-coachesfined&prov=ap&type=lgns

Oldtimer
04-29-2009, 07:48 AM
Now Paul B posts on Twitter:


Right now about 30 tfc fans are trying to figure out if the previous post was code for what really happened to the coach!

LucaGol
04-29-2009, 11:18 AM
Why won't the NBA let Doc Rivers be his own man? I think they've got it in for him.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=A9G_bwp0OfhJjHEAbwm8vLYF?slug=ap-coachesfined&prov=ap&type=lgns

NBA refs are so shit :rolleyes:

Doc Rivers should quit ... why is David Stern on his case all the time?

H Bomb
04-29-2009, 11:23 AM
cause Doc Rivers can't get a better paying job somewhere else. But of course you thought of that being such a fan of logic.

LucaGol
04-29-2009, 11:25 AM
cause Doc Rivers can't get a better paying job somewhere else. But of course you thought of that being such a fan of logic.

Oh oh oh ... hold the phone ....

So let me get this straight .... Freudian slip by H Bomb. You think that John Carver left because he knows he can get a better paying job somewhere else.

Funny, I don't remember any one ever saying that in any press conference or interview.

H Bomb
04-29-2009, 11:31 AM
it's called deduction, yours were assumptions. As in there are no other jobs in basketball coaching that pay more than the NBA. In England a first team coach will be paid large amounts of money comparable to managers over here.....now take a good five minutes and have a think about this before you waste your time responding

LucaGol
04-29-2009, 11:55 AM
it's called deduction, yours were assumptions. As in there are no other jobs in basketball coaching that pay more than the NBA. In England a first team coach will be paid large amounts of money comparable to managers over here.....now take a good five minutes and have a think about this before you waste your time responding

Ok, so I'm deducing that John Carver left because he knows he can get more money elsewhere. His trouble with MLS was just the perfect excuse for his out.

Thank you for helping me prove my point.

You're the best.

Tezza
04-29-2009, 12:18 PM
Carver said in addition to drawing up the lineup, he made "40 or 50 phone calls" down to assistant Chris Cummins on the bench during the match. He said he gave his usual pre-game, halftime and post-game talks in the locker room and had decided beforehand to have Cummins handle the media conference if the team won but do it himself in the event of a tie or TFC loss.


I find this statement interesting in light of John Molinaro's comments about watching the team practice this formation and Chris Cummins stating it was a group effort to go with the 4-3-3.

I could be inclined to believe that the coaching staff were trying to convince Carver that the team could do well in this formation and he was resistant to trying it. Given the poor results in the 2 previous games and in light of his frustrations with the league and fine he received, he bends to the pressue to attempt this formation but indicates that he doesn't believe it will be successful and if they think it will work then they can coach the lads from the bench. He decides in his head that if the team wins then Cummins should accept the credit and glory and if the team loses he takes one for the coaching staff and tells the media and fans that they tried a new formation but it didn't work. When the team played fantastic he begins to doubt whether he is actually making the right decisions for the team, and has a little embarrasement from an implied "I told you so" from his coaching staff. MLS tells him he can't be up in the press box for future games and all of this pushes Carver to decide...they are better off without him and quits.

The assumption is that John Carver is willing to accept that he is wrong but his ego doesn't allow him to let it roll off his back easily. He also has a tremendous amount of conviction and once he realizes that HIS way is perhaps not working...rather than adapt...he chooses to accept he has failed. He won't stand in the way of the teams success...and if it's not entirely his doing...then perhaps he isn't the right man for the job.

Blizzard
04-29-2009, 09:11 PM
I find this statement interesting in light of John Molinaro's comments about watching the team practice this formation and Chris Cummins stating it was a group effort to go with the 4-3-3.

I could be inclined to believe that the coaching staff were trying to convince Carver that the team could do well in this formation and he was resistant to trying it. Given the poor results in the 2 previous games and in light of his frustrations with the league and fine he received, he bends to the pressue to attempt this formation but indicates that he doesn't believe it will be successful and if they think it will work then they can coach the lads from the bench. He decides in his head that if the team wins then Cummins should accept the credit and glory and if the team loses he takes one for the coaching staff and tells the media and fans that they tried a new formation but it didn't work. When the team played fantastic he begins to doubt whether he is actually making the right decisions for the team, and has a little embarrasement from an implied "I told you so" from his coaching staff. MLS tells him he can't be up in the press box for future games and all of this pushes Carver to decide...they are better off without him and quits.

The assumption is that John Carver is willing to accept that he is wrong but his ego doesn't allow him to let it roll off his back easily. He also has a tremendous amount of conviction and once he realizes that HIS way is perhaps not working...rather than adapt...he chooses to accept he has failed. He won't stand in the way of the teams success...and if it's not entirely his doing...then perhaps he isn't the right man for the job.

You know what they say about "assumptions" don't you?

LucaGol
04-30-2009, 08:24 AM
You know what they say about "assumptions" don't you?

That they are required for solving complex problems as long as you check them once you've found your solution?


That or something about making an ass of Blizzard? :D