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TFCAlbertaGirl
04-26-2009, 09:10 AM
Carver in a Major upset

Apr 26 2009 (http://www.sundaysun.co.uk/sport/newcastle-utd/newcastle-utd-news/2009/04/26/) by Neil Farrington (http://www.sundaysun.co.uk/authors/neil-farrington/), Sunday Sun
FORMER Newcastle coach John Carver is returning to Tyneside after quitting as boss of Major League Soccer side Toronto FC.
However, the one-time United No 2 last night played down suggestions he is set to join Alan Shearer’s coaching staff back at St James’s Park.
Carver’s decision to quit was prompted by his frustration with MLS’s top brass rather than dissatisfaction with Toronto or any prospect of a job at Newcastle.

Carver told the Sunday Sun: “There is nothing else in the pipeline, and the people at Toronto have been fantastic to me.
“It is the MLS with whom I have issues.”

More here:


http://www.sundaysun.co.uk/sport/newcastle-utd/newcastle-utd-news/2009/04/26/carver-in-a-major-upset-79310-23473525/

TFCAlbertaGirl
04-26-2009, 09:12 AM
Sorry already posted...

Pachuco
04-26-2009, 09:53 AM
Well if that doesn't make it any more obvious that the little bitch dumped his team then I don't know what will. Carver is now a quitter in my books. I'm sorry TFC ever hired him.

MUFC_Niagara
04-26-2009, 10:14 AM
Carver in a Major upset

Apr 26 2009 (http://www.sundaysun.co.uk/sport/newcastle-utd/newcastle-utd-news/2009/04/26/) by Neil Farrington (http://www.sundaysun.co.uk/authors/neil-farrington/), Sunday Sun
FORMER Newcastle coach John Carver is returning to Tyneside after quitting as boss of Major League Soccer side Toronto FC.
However, the one-time United No 2 last night played down suggestions he is set to join Alan Shearer’s coaching staff back at St James’s Park.
Carver’s decision to quit was prompted by his frustration with MLS’s top brass rather than dissatisfaction with Toronto or any prospect of a job at Newcastle.

Carver told the Sunday Sun: “There is nothing else in the pipeline, and the people at Toronto have been fantastic to me.
“It is the MLS with whom I have issues.”

More here:


http://www.sundaysun.co.uk/sport/newcastle-utd/newcastle-utd-news/2009/04/26/carver-in-a-major-upset-79310-23473525/

Wow I said yesterday that I though he quit because the league was a joke and I was right!

sully
04-26-2009, 10:21 AM
Well if that doesn't make it any more obvious that the little bitch dumped his team then I don't know what will. Carver is now a quitter in my books. I'm sorry TFC ever hired him.

if this is true then the league are in fact to blame. League management have no place telling a manager how he should manage his own business. If Carver or any other manager feels that his team is better served by him being in the stands to get a better view of the play so that he can relay his observations to the touchline via phone then that is his choice. If this is true then Carver was put in an impossible situation.

And by the way, this is a public forum, so if you want to insult people like you did above, bear that in mind please.

ensco
04-26-2009, 10:22 AM
Wow I said yesterday that I though he quit because the league was a joke and I was right!

Let's all remember what Carver's resume was before he got here.

He'd been a caretaker manager for Leeds in the Chamionship for 5 games. Then he became assistant manager for League One Luton. Then he came to TFC. That's it.

This idea that John Carver is too good for MLS is the biggest load I've heard in a long time. It's also insulting to a number of very good existing MLS coaches.

OneLoveOneEric
04-26-2009, 10:26 AM
^^^I would tend to agree with this comment. I would imagine that dealing with frustrations with management, officials, and league brass is part and parcel with any managerial job in football. You hear the top managers complaining of it all the time.
Seems to me that maybe Carver has grown up drinking the same Newcastle water as Kevin Keegan and isn't too interested in finishing a job.....

Waggy
04-26-2009, 10:32 AM
Well if that doesn't make it any more obvious that the little bitch dumped his team then I don't know what will. Carver is now a quitter in my books. I'm sorry TFC ever hired him.

Man, generally I don't agree with you, but I respect your opinion. Mostly cause you back it up. I just don't see your point here though. If the guy felt he was constrained by the league and unable to succeed, why would he stay? If your company at work told you you weren't allowed to use your greatest assets, and your job/pay was performance based, how long would you stay?

MUFC_Niagara
04-26-2009, 10:37 AM
Let's all remember what Carver's resume was before he got here.

He'd been a caretaker manager for Leeds in the Chamionship for 5 games. Then he became assistant manager for League One Luton. Then he came to TFC. That's it.

This idea that John Carver is too good for MLS is the biggest load I've heard in a long time. It's also insulting to a number of very good existing MLS coaches.

Its go nothing to do with being too good. He was fed up losing players for internationals, getting done by the referrees, and the final straw....not being able to sit in the press box for games? A lot of people on here have complained about the same things. Good on Carver for standing against to what he and many believe is a poorly run mickey mouse "professional" league. The refs are shit in other leagues agreed but the international calender and not being allowed to sit in the press box for the game are two of the most rediculous things I have ever heard. Maybe it doesn't bend the other managers but i'll tell you this, ts partly why the soccer community in the US hasn't latched on to this league.

MUFC_Niagara
04-26-2009, 10:39 AM
Man, generally I don't agree with you, but I respect your opinion. Mostly cause you back it up. I just don't see your point here though. If the guy felt he was constrained by the league and unable to succeed, why would he stay? If your company at work told you you weren't allowed to use your greatest assets, and your job/pay was performance based, how long would you stay?

Excellent way of putting it.

Beach_Red
04-26-2009, 10:41 AM
Man, generally I don't agree with you, but I respect your opinion. Mostly cause you back it up. I just don't see your point here though. If the guy felt he was constrained by the league and unable to succeed, why would he stay? If your company at work told you you weren't allowed to use your greatest assets, and your job/pay was performance based, how long would you stay?

People are wondering then why he didn't leave in the off-season. The league is no different now than it was last year.

Everyone's been really upfront that Carver had a huge say in player aquisitions since he arrived and that he had little or no input from upper management in his choosing the line-up or running the team - until last Wednesday when some would say his "greatest asset" - Dichio, was finally used.

MUFC_Niagara
04-26-2009, 10:45 AM
I think he was trying to make it work Beach Red but ultimately got to fed up. I don't blame him. Was there something that indicated the FO told him toplay Dichio? I didn't know that.....if true that's interesting.

ensco
04-26-2009, 10:46 AM
Its go nothing to do with being too good. He was fed up losing players for internationals, getting done by the referrees, and the final straw....not being able to sit in the press box for games? A lot of people on here have complained about the same things. Good on Carver for standing against to what he and many believe is a poorly run mickey mouse "professional" league. The refs are shit in other leagues agreed but the international calender and not being allowed to sit in the press box for the game are two of the most rediculous things I have ever heard. Maybe it doesn't bend the other managers but i'll tell you this, ts partly why the soccer community in the US hasn't latched on to this league.

This is ludicrous.

1) "Fed up with losing players to internationals"..... This was a conscious team selection decision made by TFC (Mo). Many MLS teams are hardly affected by this.

2) "Being done in by referees".....too much of this is becoming accepted wisdom around here. Carver was a baby about this from day one. It's just not true.

3) "Not beling allowed to sit in the press box"...I've got some advice for you. Don't believe everything (anything?) you read in the English Sun.

OneLoveOneEric
04-26-2009, 10:47 AM
Man, generally I don't agree with you, but I respect your opinion. Mostly cause you back it up. I just don't see your point here though. If the guy felt he was constrained by the league and unable to succeed, why would he stay? If your company at work told you you weren't allowed to use your greatest assets, and your job/pay was performance based, how long would you stay?

This is true, but I guess the question is what are hurdles in your job that you are expected to negotiate and what are hurdles that are truly unwarranted and make quitting necessary?
We all know the refs are horrible in the MLS, but any coach in any league has beef with the refs. For me, dealing with bad officiating is a hurdle you're expected to negotiate.
Having the league protect it's interests above your own? Same category for me. Managers in all leagues are fined for talking badly about refs and/or the league. It's shitty, but it's how it works, and it's not unexpected.
Losing players against your will to international breaks? Sure MLS has it the worst, but go to any sports newscast before any int'l break and you'll hear every manager in the world making the same complaints.
I won't go on...
Maybe Carver didn't anticipate the degree to which these things would be a problem in MLS. But I think to assume they were unexpected, or unheard of is a touch naive.

Waggy
04-26-2009, 10:47 AM
People are wondering then why he didn't leave in the off-season. The league is no different now than it was last year.

Everyone's been really upfront that Carver had a huge say in player aquisitions since he arrived and that he had little or no input from upper management in his choosing the line-up or running the team - until last Wednesday when some would say his "greatest asset" - Dichio, was finally used.


I've been having a running argument with one of my friends about Fouls. I actually went back and looked at the fouls for and against us every game, and the fouls the team we played got the week before to compare. The results were staggeringly scewed to us getting called for a LOT more fouls. The only rational way I could explain it (outside of conspiracy theories anyways) is style of play. Carver likes a more hardnosed style of play, that would be perfectly acceptable in the Premiership or most top flight leagues. But in the MLS it isn't. So my buddy says, why doesn't he change then? Its not like the refs are changing.

My response to that is the same as my response to your point: Its a growing league thats constantly changing. Carver seems to genuinly love Toronto, and the club, and really really wanted it to work. He hoped the league would change as its profile grew, but he saw it wasn't happening, and actually might have gotten worse. I really don't think in the same position too many people on this board would do otherwise. But he wanted to give us, and the league, every opportunity to come around more towards 'his' style, which I can totally understand. I think we'd all like it if MLS was run like a real footy league.


And to post above: you're absolutely right. Every coach has to deal with some of those to some degree. I think in this case it was just the amount of times those issues popped up. Not once or twice a season, but practically weekly. But this is one of those things we just won't ever really know until Carver truly explains himself

OneLoveOneEric
04-26-2009, 10:51 AM
^^^Of course we'll never know.
As for your point about the league changing, I can't imagine that Carver has been here long enough to expect to see any sort of systemic change in the league.

Beach_Red
04-26-2009, 10:55 AM
This is ludicrous.

1) "Fed up with losing players to internationals"..... This was a conscious team selection decision made by TFC (Mo). Many MLS teams are hardly affected by this.


How much input do you think Carver had in player selection? Everything we were told since he arrived was that he had a huge input.

And the best players on the team are still the ones from season one (Robinson, Dichio) and draft picks. It really looks like the players Caver really liked - Ricketts, Robert - were the ones who didn't work out.

Of course, we don't really know what went on with the team, but it doesn't seem like Carver can complain he didn't get a chance to run the team the way he wanted. He may have simply decided that MLS is not for him. I understand that, it's not for everyone. I can't stand watching those British teams try and play hockey.

Darlofletch
04-26-2009, 10:58 AM
3) "Not beling allowed to sit in the press box"...I've got some advice for you. Don't believe everything (anything?) you read in the English Sun.

This isn't actually the evil Rupert Murdoch Sun that a lot of people rightly hate, it's just a small regional paper that serves the North east of England.

That's the only reason this story's in there, the local interest of the geordie abroad, no way this makes the national press over there, same reason they have reports of the Darlington game.

Liverpool fans, click away, it's all good.

ensco
04-26-2009, 10:58 AM
How much input do you think Carver had in player selection? Everything we were told since he arrived was that he had a huge input.

And the best players on the team are still the ones from season one (Robinson, Dichio) and draft picks. It really looks like the players Caver really liked - Ricketts, Robert - were the ones who didn't work out.

Of course, we don't really know what went on with the team, but it doesn't seem like Carver can complain he didn't get a chance to run the team the way he wanted. He may have simply decided that MLS is not for him. I understand that, it's not for everyone. I can't stand watching those British teams try and play hockey.

I agree, Carver had real input. My point was that Mo was responsible for most (all?) of the international signings.

If Carver didn't understand that by having internationals, it would create these problems, that's his problem, not the league's.

Beach_Red
04-26-2009, 10:59 AM
I think he was trying to make it work Beach Red but ultimately got to fed up. I don't blame him. Was there something that indicated the FO told him toplay Dichio? I didn't know that.....if true that's interesting.

Oh, I'm sure he was trying to make it work. And sometimes he did, the team played some great games when he was the coach. They just never found any consistency. Maybe he realized in this league they never would and it would just continue as it is. I don't know how big a factor it was, but imagine two losing seasons as head coach on a resume - hard to make it look good.

And it's true we don't know who made up the line-up for the Chivas game, we just know that it was the best game the team has played.

Waggy
04-26-2009, 10:59 AM
Fair enough. It was only a little over a year. Feels a lot longer to me though. Still, given his passion for the club and the city, I just can't believe he'd leave unless there was damn good cause. And I can totally understand being ROYALLY pissed off if MLS told him he wasn't allowed to sit upstairs and view the game. Thats the thing, it was probably just the straw that broke the camels back. Besides, he saw the talent coming in to the club in the offseason, why wouldn't he give it a go?

Beach_Red
04-26-2009, 11:03 AM
I agree, Carver had real input. My point was that Mo was responsible for most (all?) of the international signings.

If Carver didn't understand that by having internationals, it would create these problems, that's his problem, not the league's.

It is a tough league to coach in, for sure. A lot of those "internastionals" are Americans and Canadians which the league requires on the roster.

It's impossible to go through the roster and know which was a player Mo wanted and which was a player Carver wanted. Except, of course, for the players who've been here since the first season (and Guevara which was clearly a Mo connection). For any player who had a trial Carver probably had a huge amount of input.

Pachuco
04-26-2009, 11:08 AM
Man, generally I don't agree with you, but I respect your opinion. Mostly cause you back it up. I just don't see your point here though. If the guy felt he was constrained by the league and unable to succeed, why would he stay? If your company at work told you you weren't allowed to use your greatest assets, and your job/pay was performance based, how long would you stay?

Well let me put it to you this way. Carver signed a contract extension at the beginning of the year well knowing what the rules of this league are. He took on the responsibility of running a football team with the understanding he would be here until the season ends. MLSE invested alot in Carver (not just money) it's clear they brought in players Carver wanted.

So Carver has a problem with the league and he quits? well Carver quitting doesn't solve anything for the team, because the team itself still has to live under the same roof with MLS and same rules. Therefore, he's done nothing but abandon this team and the players. He's a quitter in my books, I don't like quitters. I formed an opinion of Carver last summer and he just proved me right.

I don't always get my way at work, but that doesn't make me a quitter. If I signeda contract for 1 year at work I would live up to that contract, SPECIALLY if it was going to affect the entire project. You don't burn bridges like that, I hope this bites Carver in the ass someday. Like when MLSE buys an EPL team and hires Shearer as the boss. MLSE then denies working with Carver again. These things can happen.

Pachuco
04-26-2009, 11:10 AM
if this is true then the league are in fact to blame. League management have no place telling a manager how he should manage his own business. If Carver or any other manager feels that his team is better served by him being in the stands to get a better view of the play so that he can relay his observations to the touchline via phone then that is his choice. If this is true then Carver was put in an impossible situation.

And by the way, this is a public forum, so if you want to insult people like you did above, bear that in mind please.

I actually hope Carver reads this, cause he deserves nothing more then to see that he's a quitter.

How could you possibly blame the league? do you see any other coach in the MLS quitting because of the league? NO. He signed a contract with the team and being this his second year he understood real well what the rules are. Every other coach is handicapped by the same rules, so in the end, it's not a handicapp.

MUFC_Niagara
04-26-2009, 11:14 AM
I agree, Carver had real input. My point was that Mo was responsible for most (all?) of the international signings.

If Carver didn't understand that by having internationals, it would create these problems, that's his problem, not the league's.

No IT IS the league's problem. It holds back the quality of the league, the teams don't write the rules, the league does.

Ossington Mental Youth
04-26-2009, 11:26 AM
I suspect its a combination of being fed up wtih the MLS and not being able to take the heat (he was trying to play a formation with the wrong players etc)

sully
04-26-2009, 11:26 AM
How could you possibly blame the league? do you see any other coach in the MLS quitting because of the league? NO. He signed a contract with the team and being this his second year he understood real well what the rules are. Every other coach is handicapped by the same rules, so in the end, it's not a handicapp.

your point is taken, but we know this league is anything but consistent regarding rules..e.g. take rules around expansion, referee standards, international dates, inconsistent application of DP rules, Beckam fiasco... and I don't know if other managers have quit because of the league or not..

NateDoGG
04-26-2009, 11:28 AM
so he tucks his tail between his legs and runs back home....... what a great manager. (sarcasim)

TheRenter
04-26-2009, 11:30 AM
Carver’s decision to quit was prompted by his frustration with MLS’s top brass rather than dissatisfaction with Toronto or any prospect of a job at Newcastle.

Carver told the Sunday Sun: “There is nothing else in the pipeline, and the people at Toronto have been fantastic to me.
“It is the MLS with whom I have issues.”

all of this here in a nutshell pleases me:D, however i can't help but voice my dissapointment in how others may view the league as a whole because of incidents such as this:(

smartin up MLS, or you will never be as big as what is possible

Pachuco
04-26-2009, 11:34 AM
your point is taken, but we know this league is anything but consistent regarding rules..e.g. take rules around expansion, referee standards, international dates, inconsistent application of DP rules, Beckam fiasco... and I don't know if other managers have quit because of the league or not..

Look I'm with you on that, I know the league is really messed up with some of the rules and insconsistencies. But he signed a contract knowing that. It's a terrible thing to say 6 games into a season that he left because he didn't agree with the rules. If that was the case, he should have left 6 games ago.

It's like a project manager signing to run a project for 1 year that the company has made a significant investment in. Next thing you know, the PM bumps heads with the same executives he worked on previous projects with so he decides to quit. What do you think would happen to that person in the business world? He'd burn his bridges and would be lucky to work again with anything related to those same execs. He'd also lose his reference and would have to explain why he left a commitment after a few months. This stuff doesn't fly in the business world, it shouldn't fly in professional sports either.

If I was an owner of a team in the EPL, I'd be really worried about hiring someone who's been known to quit in the middle of a season when he didn't get his way.

Beach_Red
04-26-2009, 11:38 AM
smartin up MLS, or you will never be as big as what is possible

It's a tough road. Everyone involved knows how big the league can be, but no one's been able to find exactly the right way to go from here to there. No doubt there will be bumps along the way and adjustments are being made. The downside of that is it looks inconsistent butthe upside is they're going to keep trying to get it right.

Pachuco
04-26-2009, 11:41 AM
No IT IS the league's problem. It holds back the quality of the league, the teams don't write the rules, the league does.

Nobody knew Carver before he came, many will forget him real fast. If the MLS hired a proven coach like Sven and he left for that reason, then I would see your point. But in this case, it's only he who looks bad. Specially since he in no way improved the quality of this league.

Ladies Love Julius James
04-26-2009, 11:44 AM
How could Carver leave based on the validity of the league and a guy like this is still here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Nicol

rocker
04-26-2009, 11:50 AM
it's more about dedication to the league, for me.
the prob with bringing in a Sven or Mourinho (I know, it's a joke, but just go along with the idea) is that they have no dedication to the league. They are less likely to stick it out through the bad times ... look at Ruud in LA.
It's probably best to look for coaches who have a solid history in MLS, because they are going to try to make it work.
To be honest, there's no reason Carver would leave on the surface... his team is middle of the pack... 2-2-2 is not a bad record. He has good talent on the squad.
If Carver was Steve Nicol or Bruce Arena, or Dominic Kinnear, there's no way he just quits like that. These coaches, for whatever reason, are dedicated to MLS.
When you start bringing in mercenaries or guys who would really prefer to be in big leagues, then you run the risk of losing them. And MLS is so quirky in its style of play that these guys may employ strategies that work in Europe but not here.
When it doesn't work right away, they leave in frustration.

someone like Sigi Schmidt has MLS pretty much figured out.. he knows what strategies work and what types of players he wants. But it took him years of experience in the league to get to that point. And if he coached in the Premiership he'd have to adapt greatly too.

ilikemusic
04-26-2009, 12:56 PM
Wow I said yesterday that I though he quit because the league was a joke and I was right!

And the fact that Carver quit because of that is proof that he was never going to succeed here.

Only problem is he stuck around 15 months too long.

Waggy
04-26-2009, 01:02 PM
And the fact that Carver quit because of that is proof that he was never going to succeed here.

Only problem is he stuck around 15 months too long.


Thats almost as bad as the Dale Mitchell thread. Yeesh. Good to see logic and sound arguments always have a home here. Carvers quitting is proof Carver wasn't happy. And thats all its proof of.


Also, Coaches don't have loyalties to leagues. They have loyalties to money. And the league that offers the most money is where the loyalty lies. Outside of Wenger anyways. Players/Coaches in every sport, in every league use the league, city, community, fans etc as tie breakers. But 99% of the time, its coming down to money. Which is one reason Carver was so frustrated with the organization of the league, and its capping of that money.

Roogsy
04-26-2009, 01:06 PM
I love how you guys call him a quitter. Which one of you puts up with a situation longer than he has to?

Managers quit all the time because of interference from the FO and other frustrations. Being that they are just as easily fired, I am not sure why someone leaving is any more or less common.

He had enough. Lord knows when I had enough of my job I quit and moved on to the next. That's life. That's professional sports. He couldn't give his all to a situation that was impossible for him. I would do the same. I'd be surprised if any of you would do any different. So why would I blame him?

ilikemusic
04-26-2009, 01:10 PM
Thats almost as bad as the Dale Mitchell thread. Yeesh. Good to see logic and sound arguments always have a home here. Carvers quitting is proof Carver wasn't happy. And thats all its proof of.

Carver was the equivalent of a petulant child sticking his fingers in his ears and stomping his feet in the middle of the toy aisle expecting to get his way.

He was unwilling to accept the realities of MLS and it was holding the team back.

Toronto is better off without him.

Does MLS have alot of stupid rules? Of course!

Should those problems be addressed? Of course!

Should TFC be sacrificing victories to make those points? Of course not!

JC was cutting off his nose to spite his face.

Toronto needs an MLS manager who is willing to deal with MLS. Not a deluded egomaniac who thinks he is Alex Ferguson.

ensco
04-26-2009, 01:19 PM
No point discussing Carver the quitter. It's exceedingly unlikely that this is what happened.

Mo is doing himself and Carver a favour here.

Carver will have an easier time getting his next job this way, and it helps Mo recruit people if he doesn't hang them out to twist in the wind when it's over.

Cashcleaner
04-26-2009, 01:19 PM
Let's all remember what Carver's resume was before he got here.

He'd been a caretaker manager for Leeds in the Championship for 5 games. Then he became assistant manager for League One Luton. Then he came to TFC. That's it.


Here's the thing though; those may not be really outstanding credentials for a coach applying for a Premiership job, but for an expansion MSL club you could do a lot worse. You're forgetting his time as assistant coach and caretaker at Newcastle, BTW.

ensco
04-26-2009, 01:21 PM
Here's the thing though; those may not be really outstanding credentials for a coach applying for a Premiership job, but for an expansion MSL club you could do a lot worse. You're forgetting his time as assistant coach and caretaker at Newcastle, BTW.

Well, OK, he was caretaker for one game there.

My point still stands. He's not too big for MLS. Far from it. Multiple MLS coaches had better credentials before coming into this league.

Wagner
04-26-2009, 01:29 PM
So who told him he had to get back on the sideline???
if the job is getting done...who cares where he sits???

would mojo have told him to get pitch side?
or the higher ups??

Waggy
04-26-2009, 01:35 PM
Carver was the equivalent of a petulant child sticking his fingers in his ears and stomping his feet in the middle of the toy aisle expecting to get his way.

He was unwilling to accept the realities of MLS and it was holding the team back.

Toronto is better off without him.

Does MLS have alot of stupid rules? Of course!

Should those problems be addressed? Of course!

Should TFC be sacrificing victories to make those points? Of course not!

JC was cutting off his nose to spite his face.

Toronto needs an MLS manager who is willing to deal with MLS. Not a deluded egomaniac who thinks he is Alex Ferguson.


I don't disagree with any of that. However, I dont think you'll be able to find too many quality coaches who fit that bill. And not fitting that bill certainly doesn't count as proof you can't succeed. A coach of all people can win in a league he hates. Carvers resigning though isn't about success. Its about frustration. And thats what we should be focusing on to fix. What caused the frustration? MLS? MLSE? Anything we can control? Carvers gone, but the next coach will have the same issues to deal with, and no sane person would deal with them too different from Carver. So we need to fix the issues, instead of blaming the man.

Pachuco
04-26-2009, 01:40 PM
I don't disagree with any of that. However, I dont think you'll be able to find too many quality coaches who fit that bill. And not fitting that bill certainly doesn't count as proof you can't succeed. A coach of all people can win in a league he hates. Carvers resigning though isn't about success. Its about frustration. And thats what we should be focusing on to fix. What caused the frustration? MLS? MLSE? Anything we can control? Carvers gone, but the next coach will have the same issues to deal with, and no sane person would deal with them too different from Carver. So we need to fix the issues, instead of blaming the man.

If Carver quit 6 games ago, I wouldn't be so harsh in my feelings for Carver. I never questioned his character before this, just his coaching abilities. Can you or someone that doesn't consider him a quitter address how it's ok for him to sign a 1 year extension and then quit after 6 games? In any job, any sport, how is that ok? Unless he was being abused by his boss, how is it ok to quit after you've just re-signed in a role as important as head coach? I'm shocked that you guys think it's acceptible to do this. Fine if you think he was a nice guy, but it's real hard to argue that he's not a quitter.

marquis
04-26-2009, 02:00 PM
Personally, I'm very happy he left. To me, this was the best news since DeRo signing.
I think we're missing the point here, with all the discussions about the league's rules and his reasons to leave - the real question is "Was he a good coach, or not?". After over a season, I am convinced his coaching abilities are mediocre at best. So, good riddance, we're gonna make the playoffs now!

trane
04-26-2009, 02:00 PM
I am still on the fence on this one. I still like Carver as a perons, but hope to get more of an explenation from him, before I judge his departure. The league is shit. His frustration with the league is understandable, but I am still not sure that quiting over it, was the right call. Ultimatley it was Carvers call to make, he will have to live with the consequences. Lets not argue over the proverbial spiled milk. Carver is gone, his era good or bad, is over. However, there are certainly systemic problems with the league that would be discouraging for most persepctive managers.

CretanBull
04-26-2009, 02:04 PM
I am still on the fence on this one. I still like Carver as a perons, but hope to get more of an explenation from him, before I judge his departure. The league is shit. His frustration with the league is understandable, but I am still not sure that quiting over it, was the right call. Ultimatley it was Carvers call to make, he will have to live with the consequences. Lets not argue over the proverbial spiled milk. Carver is gone, his era good or bad, is over. However, there are certainly systemic problems with the league that would be discouraging for most persepctive managers.

A sane, level headed reply in this thread...finally ;)

Dub Narcotic
04-26-2009, 02:12 PM
all of this here in a nutshell pleases me:D, however i can't help but voice my dissapointment in how others may view the league as a whole because of incidents such as this:(

smartin up MLS, or you will never be as big as what is possible

Yeah, if we can' t keep top talent like John Carver around, what hope do we have? One of the qualities a good coach has to have is adaptibility and grace under pressure, qualities that Carver obviously lacks. Where do you think a failed MLS manager who can't handle adversity well is going to end up in the UK? I think he's clearly destined to bounce around the lower levels of the league in an assistant or scout role.

Cashcleaner
04-26-2009, 02:27 PM
Well, OK, he was caretaker for one game there.

My point still stands. He's not too big for MLS. Far from it. Multiple MLS coaches had better credentials before coming into this league.

So you're not counting his tenure as assistant coach out of convenience for your argument? :rolleyes:

At least give credit where its due.

kdzb
04-26-2009, 03:14 PM
if this is true then the league are in fact to blame. League management have no place telling a manager how he should manage his own business. If Carver or any other manager feels that his team is better served by him being in the stands to get a better view of the play so that he can relay his observations to the touchline via phone then that is his choice. If this is true then Carver was put in an impossible situation.

I respect very much your opinion on this new techniques on how to better view a game from a managers and point but when I compare Carver to big managersd out there or even to Sigi Shmidt for instance, I'm a bit in contradiction with you.

Did you ever seen Sir Alex, Wenger, Morinho....leaving their touchline and supervising the game from the stands?

I just think that your players are better served when you are there close to them and they feel your presence.

Being a good coach is like being a music conductor...It's all in the preparation and how you exsecute it. I don't think Carver had that.

I respect Carver very much as a person but as a coach he just dumped us like a dirty sock 6 games into a new season and I don't like that.

Waggy
04-26-2009, 03:43 PM
If Carver quit 6 games ago, I wouldn't be so harsh in my feelings for Carver. I never questioned his character before this, just his coaching abilities. Can you or someone that doesn't consider him a quitter address how it's ok for him to sign a 1 year extension and then quit after 6 games? In any job, any sport, how is that ok? Unless he was being abused by his boss, how is it ok to quit after you've just re-signed in a role as important as head coach? I'm shocked that you guys think it's acceptible to do this. Fine if you think he was a nice guy, but it's real hard to argue that he's not a quitter.


Simple. JC: Mo, I love the city, love the club, want to be back. But I want to know the clubs behind me, I don't just want to be a fall guy
Mo: Don't worry, no matter what the club is 100% behind you
JC: I want better plays, I need some finishers and some defenders
Mo: Don't worry, they're coming

Now, I like Mo as a GM and I think he's doing a good job, but clearly the club chose not to support Carver in his last fine. If I was carver, I'd take that action as voiding my contract. Also, if Carver was so sure it was going swimingly here, wouldn't he have demanded longer than 1 year? 1 year says to me he wasn't sold yet.

Batman
04-26-2009, 08:05 PM
I actually recieved the real story from the highest authorities today. There was no blow up with the club or anyone else. JC decided to go purely for his own well being...pure and simple. I can't say anything else, but it was his call, and not based upon another job offer, nor a blow up with anyone in MLSE... and definitely not based upon a $750 fine. I do expect he'll get a job quickly in UK as an assistant, but that's not why he left.

Anything else on the boards is pure speculation but not based upon fact.

bhoybobby
04-26-2009, 08:10 PM
Gerry Dobson wrote an excellent piece on JC, seems to think he acted to quick. Obviously a high strung guy who wanted results right away.

Letting officiating under his skin is going to be problematic anywhere he goes, just listen to the EPL managers, tey freak out every week. Part & parcel of the game

Pachuco
04-26-2009, 08:23 PM
I actually recieved the real story from the highest authorities today. There was no blow up with the club or anyone else. JC decided to go purely for his own well being...pure and simple. I can't say anything else, but it was his call, and not based upon another job offer, nor a blow up with anyone in MLSE... and definitely not based upon a $750 fine. I do expect he'll get a job quickly in UK as an assistant, but that's not why he left.

Anything else on the boards is pure speculation but not based upon fact.

That's what the media has been reporting as well so this is what I'm inclined to believe.

ensco
04-26-2009, 08:30 PM
So you're not counting his tenure as assistant coach out of convenience for your argument? :rolleyes:

At least give credit where its due.

No, it's a credential. But it doesn't matter, really it doesn't. I just have no time for this whole line of argument. He's not David Beckham.

Shway
04-26-2009, 09:22 PM
THAT just sums it up folks,
THE MAN WITH NO SHAME
HE HAS NO SHAAMMEEEE
JOHN CARVER, THE MAN WITH NO SHAMMEEEEE!

if it wasnt toronto, then why would you leave you team just because of rules that you have went through for almost 2 years now!

pekduck
04-26-2009, 09:28 PM
^
i'd die of heart attack or high blood pressure putting up with the MLS shit he has to live through

irregular heart beats, severe migraine and insomnia did happen to me few times in the past in my career... only when i was close to hospitalized, then i switched gears and work...

of course, not sure if that's what's happening here with carver or not, but just saying that there is indeed another unproven theory

ExiledRed
04-26-2009, 09:28 PM
I actually recieved the real story from the highest authorities today. There was no blow up with the club or anyone else. JC decided to go purely for his own well being...pure and simple. I can't say anything else, but it was his call, and not based upon another job offer, nor a blow up with anyone in MLSE... and definitely not based upon a $750 fine. I do expect he'll get a job quickly in UK as an assistant, but that's not why he left.

Anything else on the boards is pure speculation but not based upon fact.

Last year, after a DVD of Carver's sideline antics was distributed to the refs, Carver stated that if MLS didn't like him being here, he would leave.

So he did.

I would too if I'd made that assertation and felt that the time had come to act upon my word. I can't blame him or fault him for it. It was a professional decision and purely his, and he should be allowed his dignity IMO.

I liked the guy, but he was too into being the underdog, the mid-table team that wins out by hard work and beat down play designed to stifle creativity. His gameplan was frustrating, graham taylorish, boring football with no real ambition. He liked to sit on narrow leads and never went for the throat, when we were clearly at an advantage.

Accept this guys, all he wanted from this season was 4 more points than we got last year. He said so himself. He had no offensive mentality, no champion mentality. No talk of being the best or challenging for the cup, 8th place was good enough for him. We're better off hitting the reset button and hoping for the best, we really are.

I'll pray for Steve Nicol. I know for a fact this guy has a champions mentality. I saw him play.

ilikemusic
04-26-2009, 10:36 PM
I actually recieved the real story from the highest authorities today. There was no blow up with the club or anyone else. JC decided to go purely for his own well being...pure and simple. I can't say anything else, but it was his call, and not based upon another job offer, nor a blow up with anyone in MLSE... and definitely not based upon a $750 fine. I do expect he'll get a job quickly in UK as an assistant, but that's not why he left.

Anything else on the boards is pure speculation but not based upon fact.

That paints him in a rather unsympathetic light as far as im concerned.

He just left because he felt like it?

I would feel pretty dam betrayed if I had spent the last year parading around that 'In Carver We Trust' slogan.


I liked the guy, but he was too into being the underdog, the mid-table team that wins out by hard work and beat down play designed to stifle creativity. His gameplan was frustrating, graham taylorish, boring football with no real ambition. He liked to sit on narrow leads and never went for the throat, when we were clearly at an advantage.

Accept this guys, all he wanted from this season was 4 more points than we got last year. He said so himself. He had no offensive mentality, no champion mentality. No talk of being the best or challenging for the cup, 8th place was good enough for him. We're better off hitting the reset button and hoping for the best, we really are.

I'll pray for Steve Nicol. I know for a fact this guy has a champions mentality. I saw him play.

Could not have put it better myself.

ensco
04-27-2009, 06:48 AM
Last year, after a DVD of Carver's sideline antics was distributed to the refs, Carver stated that if MLS didn't like him being here, he would leave.

So he did.

I would too if I'd made that assertation and felt that the time had come to act upon my word. I can't blame him or fault him for it. It was a professional decision and purely his, and he should be allowed his dignity IMO.

I liked the guy, but he was too into being the underdog, the mid-table team that wins out by hard work and beat down play designed to stifle creativity. His gameplan was frustrating, graham taylorish, boring football with no real ambition. He liked to sit on narrow leads and never went for the throat, when we were clearly at an advantage.

Accept this guys, all he wanted from this season was 4 more points than we got last year. He said so himself. He had no offensive mentality, no champion mentality. No talk of being the best or challenging for the cup, 8th place was good enough for him. We're better off hitting the reset button and hoping for the best, we really are.

I'll pray for Steve Nicol. I know for a fact this guy has a champions mentality. I saw him play.

Agree with your summary of who Carver is. Bang on.

Disagree with your assessment of the validity of Carver leaving because of the refs (which is not what I believe was the biggest reason he left, but let's say it was - the refs clearly were a factor, that we all know). The time to leave for these sorts of "personal affront to dignity" reasons is in the off season, not 6 games in. A coach or manager has a fundamental obligation to his players that transcends these sorts of problems.

Chevy
04-27-2009, 07:02 AM
Look I'm with you on that, I know the league is really messed up with some of the rules and insconsistencies. But he signed a contract knowing that. It's a terrible thing to say 6 games into a season that he left because he didn't agree with the rules. If that was the case, he should have left 6 games ago.

It's like a project manager signing to run a project for 1 year that the company has made a significant investment in. Next thing you know, the PM bumps heads with the same executives he worked on previous projects with so he decides to quit. What do you think would happen to that person in the business world? He'd burn his bridges and would be lucky to work again with anything related to those same execs. He'd also lose his reference and would have to explain why he left a commitment after a few months. This stuff doesn't fly in the business world, it shouldn't fly in professional sports either.

If I was an owner of a team in the EPL, I'd be really worried about hiring someone who's been known to quit in the middle of a season when he didn't get his way.

This is why I think he left for health reasons. He let the MLS and the pressure of being the head guy get to him. Needed to step down before he completely cracked.

Oldtimer
04-27-2009, 07:42 AM
This is why I think he left for health reasons. He let the MLS and the pressure of being the head guy get to him. Needed to step down before he completely cracked.

Some of you guys have never worked in a high-pressure situation. I have and know people who have. At a certain point, you just have to get out of the situation.

I think that stress also explains some of Carver's bizarre behaviour, weird substitutions, etc.

In balance, he may be a good coach, I think he'd do better as a coach's assistant, without all of the stress of being a coach involves.

As Mo indicated, JC will need some "recovery" time, and I hope that MLSE will pay to give him the R&R that he needs or that they have a decent disability coverage. After that, being an assistant for someone like Shearer would be great for a life-long Geordie.

I_AM_CANADIAN
04-27-2009, 07:52 AM
Carver in a Major upset

Apr 26 2009 (http://www.sundaysun.co.uk/sport/newcastle-utd/newcastle-utd-news/2009/04/26/) by Neil Farrington (http://www.sundaysun.co.uk/authors/neil-farrington/), Sunday Sun
FORMER Newcastle coach John Carver is returning to Tyneside after quitting as boss of Major League Soccer side Toronto FC.
However, the one-time United No 2 last night played down suggestions he is set to join Alan Shearer’s coaching staff back at St James’s Park.
Carver’s decision to quit was prompted by his frustration with MLS’s top brass rather than dissatisfaction with Toronto or any prospect of a job at Newcastle.

Carver told the Sunday Sun: “There is nothing else in the pipeline, and the people at Toronto have been fantastic to me.
“It is the MLS with whom I have issues.”

More here:


http://www.sundaysun.co.uk/sport/newcastle-utd/newcastle-utd-news/2009/04/26/carver-in-a-major-upset-79310-23473525/
I'm pretty sure he didn't tell the Sun this, I read the quite about him having issues with the MLS earlier.

I don't understand how some can say this cements his status as a quitter. At the end of the day he's his own person, and MLS are far too restrictive of their managers and micromanage them to bits. JC never seemed like the type who would put up with that. I don't blame him.

Fort York Redcoat
04-27-2009, 07:55 AM
Has there been mention he'd ever want to come back? I don't see it happening.

Where in his contract does it state that he'll see the some of the worst officiating of his life when Carver took this job? I'm disappointed but I can't blame him. Everyone has a breaking point and it may be that he decided he wasn't doing the team any good with his outlook on our game.

ExiledRed
04-27-2009, 03:10 PM
Sure ensco,

But have you considered that he may have left, because he knew he wasn't the right man for the job? You can't disagree that leaving may have been the best thing he could do for the team. So essentially by quitting, he is fulfilling his obligation to the team in some kind of roundabout way.

Beach_Red
04-27-2009, 03:27 PM
Last year, after a DVD of Carver's sideline antics was distributed to the refs, Carver stated that if MLS didn't like him being here, he would leave.

So he did.

I would too if I'd made that assertation and felt that the time had come to act upon my word. I can't blame him or fault him for it. It was a professional decision and purely his, and he should be allowed his dignity IMO.

I liked the guy, but he was too into being the underdog, the mid-table team that wins out by hard work and beat down play designed to stifle creativity. His gameplan was frustrating, graham taylorish, boring football with no real ambition. He liked to sit on narrow leads and never went for the throat, when we were clearly at an advantage.

Accept this guys, all he wanted from this season was 4 more points than we got last year. He said so himself. He had no offensive mentality, no champion mentality. No talk of being the best or challenging for the cup, 8th place was good enough for him. We're better off hitting the reset button and hoping for the best, we really are.

I'll pray for Steve Nicol. I know for a fact this guy has a champions mentality. I saw him play.

This is a great analysis.

No talk of challenging for the cup, an underdog, hard-working, mid-table team. This makes perfect sense coming from a league where only a small number of teams have any realistic shot at the title, but this MLS where every team should start the season thinking they can be the best.

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-27-2009, 03:32 PM
Well if that doesn't make it any more obvious that the little bitch dumped his team then I don't know what will. Carver is now a quitter in my books. I'm sorry TFC ever hired him.


get a life....JC was the best thing to hit Toronto sports in a few decades.
He said what he believed...thats call HONESTY!! He had the right to manage the team from the press box if he felt like it...MLS has f**ked this
up big time.

ilikemusic
04-27-2009, 03:44 PM
get a life....JC was the best thing to hit Toronto sports in a few decades.
He said what he believed...thats call HONESTY!! He had the right to manage the team from the press box if he felt like it...MLS has f**ked this
up big time.

How many decades can you even remember?

You need to refrain from the personal insults.
It makes you look like an even bigger jackass than your opinions do.

jloome
04-27-2009, 04:54 PM
Let's all remember what Carver's resume was before he got here.

He'd been a caretaker manager for Leeds in the Chamionship for 5 games. Then he became assistant manager for League One Luton. Then he came to TFC. That's it.

This idea that John Carver is too good for MLS is the biggest load I've heard in a long time. It's also insulting to a number of very good existing MLS coaches.

Holy crap eugene, talk about ignoring history to make a point more stridently.

He was a field coach at Newcastle for years before those caretaker chances. I'll agree with you that his two opportunities before here certainly didn't suggest he was ready or anything, but his resume at Newcastle as a field coach alone probably prepares him better than Sigi Schmid and Schellas Hyndman were, given that they both came from NCAA (and I think Arena, too.)

Additionally, he was a professional player himself for a decade before that with Cardiff and Newcastle.

So boiling it down to "he has no pedigree" is simply unfair. He had no bench boss pedigree; but everyone has to get their first full-time gig somewhere, and most MLS coaches could only have dreamed as having as much experience heading into it as he did.

In fact, I'd say his success as a field coach for Bobby Robson -- and his reputation as a developer of youth playing technique -- is probably a bit part of why he wants to go: lots of people are promoted to management (myself included) only to find it isn't where they want to be.

jloome
04-27-2009, 04:56 PM
Sure ensco,

But have you considered that he may have left, because he knew he wasn't the right man for the job? You can't disagree that leaving may have been the best thing he could do for the team. So essentially by quitting, he is fulfilling his obligation to the team in some kind of roundabout way.

Solid.

ensco
04-27-2009, 04:56 PM
Sure ensco,

But have you considered that he may have left, because he knew he wasn't the right man for the job? You can't disagree that leaving may have been the best thing he could do for the team. So essentially by quitting, he is fulfilling his obligation to the team in some kind of roundabout way.


We've all been there. You get signed up for a consulting gig, freelance job, contract, whatever, and the only thing you're employer wants to know is that you're committed for the duration of the contract. Then you discover part way through it that you're just not the man for the job.

Carver couldn't win. Stay, and he'd get carried out on his shield, but TFC fails with him. Or leave, before damage is done, but then you're a quitter. You're saying the latter may be what happened, and if it was, it was an honourable outcome. So I do see your point.

All of the above assumes that Carver quit and wasn't pushed. I am unconvinced, based on the dramatic lineup/formation changes, but in the end, it doesn't matter, unless there are as yet unknown elements that reflect poorly on Mo. I'm not saying that there are.

ensco
04-27-2009, 05:03 PM
Holy crap eugene, talk about ignoring history to make a point more stridently.

He was a field coach at Newcastle for years before those caretaker chances. I'll agree with you that his two opportunities before here certainly didn't suggest he was ready or anything, but his resume at Newcastle as a field coach alone probably prepares him better than Sigi Schmid and Schellas Hyndman were, given that they both came from NCAA (and I think Arena, too.)

Additionally, he was a professional player himself for a decade before that with Cardiff and Newcastle.

So boiling it down to "he has no pedigree" is simply unfair. He had no bench boss pedigree; but everyone has to get their first full-time gig somewhere, and most MLS coaches could only have dreamed as having as much experience heading into it as he did.

In fact, I'd say his success as a field coach for Bobby Robson -- and his reputation as a developer of youth playing technique -- is probably a bit part of why he wants to go: lots of people are promoted to management (myself included) only to find it isn't where they want to be.

Hold on there jloome. I'm not saying he had no pedigree. I'm saying it was undistinguished - there are 100s of coaches in England with similar backgrounds - and in no way entitled him to say that if the league doesn't do something about the referees, then he's going back to England. MLS isn't that different from League One and the Championship, whence Carver came. Maybe Beckham has the stature to be doing stuff like that, but Carver didn't/doesn't.

As for the Bobby Robson/Newcastle patina, I'm really not sure this exists in the job market for John Carver, or else he would have had a better offer before coming here. I guess we'll find out now.

Blizzard
04-27-2009, 05:17 PM
^
i'd die of heart attack or high blood pressure putting up with the MLS shit he has to live through

irregular heart beats, severe migraine and insomnia did happen to me few times in the past in my career... only when i was close to hospitalized, then i switched gears and work...

of course, not sure if that's what's happening here with carver or not, but just saying that there is indeed another unproven theory

Let's just hope that these were not issues for JC .... but who knows, perhaps they were.

The way I look it is, he did what he had to do. I don't care who you are, when push comes to shove, you have to put yourself (and your family) first and IF anything like this was happening in JC's life, he really didn't have a choice.

Many people leave positions / occupations for varying reasons.

This really is just another example of that.

I'm sure many here have left jobs for similar reasons at one time or another in their lives.

B

Pachuco
04-27-2009, 10:24 PM
get a life....JC was the best thing to hit Toronto sports in a few decades.
He said what he believed...thats call HONESTY!! He had the right to manage the team from the press box if he felt like it...MLS has f**ked this
up big time.

Yeap, he's much better then Cito. Had much better credentials and a much better winning record. What was I thinking?

Dirk Diggler
04-27-2009, 11:27 PM
Even Carver's agent wouldn't go about calling him the best thing to happen to Toronto sports in a few decades. That is just a ridiculous statement.

Talorcan
04-30-2009, 11:01 PM
I don't agree with Carver quitting but he was so frustrated with the league he did say his staying might actually hurt the team more.

Based on 3 years of watching MLS refs and linesmen from the front row I can see his logic.

Also if Don Garber is really serious about the league at least align the league schedule with breaks for internationals.
If not to benefit for teams with international players use the example of Beckham's flight schedule and injury due to the stupidity of the league and coach last year.
The marquee player in the league off due to a screwed up schedule the rest of the football world does not subscribe to.

Wighty
04-30-2009, 11:21 PM
Sure ensco,

But have you considered that he may have left, because he knew he wasn't the right man for the job? You can't disagree that leaving may have been the best thing he could do for the team. So essentially by quitting, he is fulfilling his obligation to the team in some kind of roundabout way.

Thank you for saying it, because this is what I believe, has happened. Then again I lost all faith in Carver after the Seattle opener, so I guess my opinion may be bias.