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Pachuco
04-23-2009, 12:06 PM
Ok guys, here it goes. I'm reaaally curious to see what you guys thought about Guevara embelishing and getting carried off on a stretcher in the 90th minute?

I thought it was terrific, and I am damn happy that we have a guy who understands the game as well as he does. He knows exactly how to and most importantly WHEN to kill time. Chivas at that point in time had mounted the pressure on us. As soon as that happened, and the ref called 4 mins of injury time, Chivas had nothing left in them. The momentum that Chivas had was killed by that single instance. In fact, I'd argue that the ref even put enough time back on the clock. Since I thought the incident alone was probably 4 mins of injury time.

So, do those of you that hated him for doing this with Honduras still hate him now? Just curious if your opinion has changed.

I'll say this as well, if this is Chivas winning 1-0, believe me, the entire team would have been flopping and embelishing, I don't feel sorry one bit.

Yohan
04-23-2009, 12:08 PM
my opinion still remains the same

winning is important. but how you win is also important.

we preach about fair play and stuff. so if embellishment and other 'dirty' tactics are accepted, even encouraged, then what about stuff like diving?

it's just a game, but what sort of example do the young kids see when they see players like Guevara flopping? not exactly reeks of professionalism if you ask me

T.Reis
04-23-2009, 12:09 PM
And with u being glad with Guevara's display u have just admitted you are of Latin/Iberian decent, and thus will be ridiculed by the English and there stand up ways towards football and the world.

TFC Tifoso
04-23-2009, 12:09 PM
Ok guys, here it goes. I'm reaaally curious to see what you guys thought about Guevara embelishing and getting carried off on a stretcher in the 90th minute?

I thought it was terrific, and I am damn happy that we have a guy who understands the game as well as he does. He knows exactly how to and most importantly WHEN to kill time. Chivas at that point in time had mounted the pressure on us. As soon as that happened, and the ref called 4 mins of injury time, Chivas had nothing left in them. The momentum that Chivas had was killed by that single instance. In fact, I'd argue that the ref even put enough time back on the clock. Since I thought the incident alone was probably 4 mins of injury time.

So, do those of you that hated him for doing this with Honduras still hate him now? Just curious if your opinion has changed.

I'll say this as well, if this is Chivas winning 1-0, believe me, the entire team would have been flopping and embelishing, I don't feel sorry one bit.

Loved it (providing he wasn't actually hurt)......its happened to TFC enough times with other teams pulling that shit.....like it or not, its a part of the game that will never go away so why not use it to our advantage when we can.

Its not like other teams will say "oooh TFC doesn't waste time so we won't either when we play them"....brownie points doesn't get results.....smart play does.

Roogsy
04-23-2009, 12:10 PM
I choose to believe he was genuinely hurt.

:D

Pachuco
04-23-2009, 12:11 PM
my opinion still remains the same

winning is important. but how you win is also important.

we preach about fair play and stuff. so if embellishment and other 'dirty' tactics are accepted, even encouraged, then what about stuff like diving?

it's just a game, but what sort of example do the young kids see when they see players like Guevara flopping? not exactly reeks of professionalism if you ask me

I don't condone diving, diving is an offense a ref can deal with and I'm glad it's that way. On the other hand, embelishment is not an offense that refs deal with (right now anyways). Therefore, it's really fair game until the rules are changed and enforced.

TFC Tifoso
04-23-2009, 12:12 PM
I don't condone diving, diving is an offense a ref can deal with and I'm glad it's that way. On the other hand, embelishment is not an offense that refs deal with (right now anyways). Therefore, it's really fair game until the rules are changed and enforced.

b-i-n-g-o

Nuvinho
04-23-2009, 12:13 PM
aren't we last in fouls against us?

KRO
04-23-2009, 12:14 PM
I never thought I would hear myself say this and I would be going crazy if an opposition player did it but I agree with you entirely. The game was stopped for exactly two minutes and all the steam was taken out of Chivas. The refs never add enough time on to compensate for these 'injuries'. Guevara may be an embelisher but he's our embelisher. And by the way, I believe he really had a cramp - he just made the most of it.

Yohan
04-23-2009, 12:14 PM
I don't condone diving, diving is an offense a ref can deal with and I'm glad it's that way. On the other hand, embelishment is not an offense that refs deal with (right now anyways). Therefore, it's really fair game until the rules are changed and enforced.
it may be 'fair play' according to the official rules, but i'd argue that it's not fair play in the spirit of the game itself

sportsmanship. something we often forget what that is all about when we only focus on winning the game

dannyd
04-23-2009, 12:15 PM
I thought it was great play by Guevara. It's not his fault the dumb stretcher people took two minutes to get to him. He didn't do anything wrong, he had a cramp and couldn't walk. Where's the problem? -No problem...

But I guess thats why Honduras is where they are and Canada is not... It's called football smarts - it's taken for granted in most leagues but is a rare Gem in MLS.

It reminds me of Gullit complaining that he had to explain basic football concepts to so called "professionals"...

S_D
04-23-2009, 12:16 PM
Ok guys, here it goes. I'm reaaally curious to see what you guys thought about Guevara embelishing and getting carried off on a stretcher in the 90th minute?

I thought it was terrific, and I am damn happy that we have a guy who understands the game as well as he does. He knows exactly how to and most importantly WHEN to kill time. Chivas at that point in time had mounted the pressure on us. As soon as that happened, and the ref called 4 mins of injury time, Chivas had nothing left in them. The momentum that Chivas had was killed by that single instance. In fact, I'd argue that the ref even put enough time back on the clock. Since I thought the incident alone was probably 4 mins of injury time.

So, do those of you that hated him for doing this with Honduras still hate him now? Just curious if your opinion has changed.

I'll say this as well, if this is Chivas winning 1-0, believe me, the entire team would have been flopping and embelishing, I don't feel sorry one bit.

I am with you on this. I don't particulary like it but recognize it is part of the game.

Just to add, not only did it kill off Chivas' momentum, it allowed our boys to clear their heads and catch a breather.

Stugatzo
04-23-2009, 12:17 PM
At least they didn't drop him like they did with George Foreman (thornton) last season...hahahahaha

Roogsy
04-23-2009, 12:19 PM
Those kids did look like they were struggling though. Did you see that? Guevara is liek 150lbs soaking wet! Literally! Imagine they had to carry Thornton off? No wonder they dropped him last year! :lol:

Pachuco
04-23-2009, 12:20 PM
Those kids did look like they were struggling though. Did you see that? Guevara is liek 150lbs soaking wet! Literally! Imagine they had to carry Thornton off? No wonder they dropped him last year! :lol:

HAHA, Guevara was probably pinching the guys legs so they would struggle to get him off.

dannyd
04-23-2009, 12:20 PM
my opinion still remains the same

winning is important. but how you win is also important.

we preach about fair play and stuff. so if embellishment and other 'dirty' tactics are accepted, even encouraged, then what about stuff like diving?

it's just a game, but what sort of example do the young kids see when they see players like Guevara flopping? not exactly reeks of professionalism if you ask me

The thing is, he wasn't flopping - he had a cramp. If the stretcher had come right away he would have complied. IMO it's the same as taking the ball to the corner and killing the clock. When you're holding onto a lead, you try to run down the clock. This is done in every sport I don't understand why people have a problem.

It's not like he dove to try and win a penalty, or faked injury

Hitcho
04-23-2009, 12:20 PM
in fairness i think he genuinely had bad cramp, hence the stretcher. it's more of a risk to have a man off the field in that scenario than it is an advantage to waste an extra minute of time.

i will never condone play actin and conning the ref of any sort, whether it's diving, simulation or whatever. iw ould much rather see it stamped out the game than resort to "it happens to us". if someone beats you up and takes your wallet, would you rather see it stamped out or rely on the fact it happened to you so it's ok to do it to someone else? extreme facts, same principle. get rid of it full stop is my choice.

Carefree
04-23-2009, 12:23 PM
it may be 'fair play' according to the official rules, but i'd argue that it's not fair play in the spirit of the game itself

sportsmanship. something we often forget what that is all about when we only focus on winning the game
Forget it Yohan. I tried to have that argument before and realized that people who think cheating/diving/embelishing is OK and part of the game will NEVER change their mind on the subject. Fair play, honour and self-respect are just not part of their value system.

Yohan
04-23-2009, 12:24 PM
The thing is, he wasn't flopping - he had a cramp. If the stretcher had come right away he would have complied. IMO it's the same as taking the ball to the corner and killing the clock. When you're holding onto a lead, you try to run down the clock. This is done in every sport I don't understand why people have a problem.

It's not like he dove to try and win a penalty, or faked injury
that's fine, if he genuinely had a cramp. and if it's a cramp, i'm not sure if he was even embellishing then.

cramps suck balls

Jack
04-23-2009, 12:33 PM
Lots of high-and-mighty people around here.

Anyway, did no one else see Guevara signalling to the bench for a change near the end of the match? I did. Then he made the "I'm done" gesture with his hands. After that he was clutching at the back of his leg. Then after another couple of minutes he went down with cramps. I think it was legit.


And with u being glad with Guevara's display u have just admitted you are of Latin/Iberian decent, and thus will be ridiculed by the English and there stand up ways towards football and the world.

What the hell does this comment mean?

Pachuco
04-23-2009, 12:34 PM
Yeah, I'm obviusly going on the suspicion he didn't have a cramp. Maybe I'm not being fair to him, but 90th minute cramps by Guevara will always be suspect to me ;)

Roogsy
04-23-2009, 12:36 PM
To be honest...when he rolled off the stretcher...he did look in pain. I am not sure it was faked, although I am fairly certain he took his sweet time.

Like I said...I choose to believe he was genuinely hurt.

ACSertL
04-23-2009, 12:37 PM
Lots of high-and-mighty people around here.

Anyway, did no one else see Guevara signalling to the bench for a change near the end of the match? I did. Then he made the "I'm done" gesture with his hands. After that he was clutching at the back of his leg. Then after another couple of minutes he went down with cramps. I think it was legit.


It would explain why Ricketts came on for him at the exact same time as well.

Pachuco
04-23-2009, 12:38 PM
My co-worker hands out the trophy for Carlsberg who is our client. He told me Barrett received the trophy on Guevarra's behalf. I hope that clears up the misconception for you.

Chase put this in the game thread. This is interesting, didn't know this. I apologize to Guevara for making that assumption if that is the case. Regardless, this is always a good subject to discuss anyways.

C.Ronaldo
04-23-2009, 12:38 PM
winning is the name of the game. and the game is $

u dont see banks trying to be fair, or politicians.


if this were kids playing for no $, then its a different story



baseball has it with stepping out of hte batters box
hockey has it (but dealt with it) as they clear it into the stands, or someone falls on the puck
american football TAKES KNEES

its part of the game

C.Ronaldo
04-23-2009, 12:39 PM
AND

basket ball purposely draws fouls, they sometimes have no intention of getting the ball in the hoop, just going for the foul

Cashcleaner
04-23-2009, 12:40 PM
I don't condone diving, diving is an offense a ref can deal with and I'm glad it's that way. On the other hand, embelishment is not an offense that refs deal with (right now anyways). Therefore, it's really fair game until the rules are changed and enforced.

Good point. It may be allowed, but I still don't have to like it, though.

Personally, I did think Amado was legitimately in pain and needed the stretcher, but who really knows? :noidea:

Roogsy
04-23-2009, 12:40 PM
AND

basket ball purposely draws fouls, they sometimes have no intention of getting the ball in the hoop, just going for the foul

^ I like it!

Drawing fouls is good gamesmanship in all sports. Even in soccer where you don't give in the box...but you definitely look to make them foul you.

Nice guys finish last.

trane
04-23-2009, 12:40 PM
And with u being glad with Guevara's display u have just admitted you are of Latin/Iberian decent, and thus will be ridiculed by the English and there stand up ways towards football and the world.

You must be joking? If you are not you shuold be banned.

Inswingingwingman
04-23-2009, 12:41 PM
My head is cramping and I'm taking myself out of this thread. I am always amazed how pros get constant cramps. Of course those here with medical degrees can always pipe up and explain the process.

Roogsy
04-23-2009, 12:42 PM
You must be joking? If you are not you shuold be banned.


I think he was being sarcastic.

But it's pretty harsh nonetheless.

Hitcho
04-23-2009, 12:42 PM
winning is the name of the game. and the game is $

u dont see banks trying to be fair, or politicians.


if this were kids playing for no $, then its a different story



^ disagree.

the bottom line is it's SPORT, which means the game should be played sportingly, by everyone. if the bottom line becomes money then it's no longer sport, it's commerce. and that's a reality FIFA and others need to work harder on trying not to face.

trane
04-23-2009, 12:43 PM
Do I like diving? No. Was he diving? I do not know. Do I lose sleep over diving? No I do not. It must be because of my Italian/Meditaranean decent.

Jack
04-23-2009, 12:44 PM
Watch the game from about 85 onward...around there anyway. The ball went deep into the corner and I believe Barrett was chasing it down and Guevara was signalling the bench from about halfway between the centre circle and the box. He did the finger roll "sub me" gesture then the "I'm done" (like Rafa Benitez did :D)

He then ran back on D and was clutching at the back of his right leg.

If anyone has the game recorded, check it out and see if they show that.

Roogsy
04-23-2009, 12:44 PM
Ok guys...let's not take this thread off on a tangent.

The original comment was borderline, but I think the dude was being sarcastic. No need to build on that though. We all have a choice on how we participate.

Jack
04-23-2009, 12:45 PM
You must be joking? If you are not you shuold be banned.


I think he was being sarcastic.

But it's pretty harsh nonetheless.
I'm waiting for the response.

I really hope he can give us a good explanation, as I know he's a mature person. I think maybe it was sarcasm, but it doesn't sound good.

Roogsy
04-23-2009, 12:45 PM
I can't figure out who he's being sarcastic towards. :noidea:

That's the problem with sarcasm on the interwebs. Also probably why it's best to stay away from sarcasm because honestly...it never translates well and there is always someone who misunderstands it.

Pachuco
04-23-2009, 12:46 PM
That's the problem with sarcasm on the interwebs. Also probably why it's best to stay away from sarcasm because honestly...it never translates well and there is always someone who misunderstands it.

Yeah I agree with you there's no reason to even address it, so I deleted my post, but you are too damn quick!

Roogsy
04-23-2009, 12:46 PM
I'm waiting for the response.

I really hope he can give us a good explanation, as I know he's a mature person. I think maybe it was sarcasm, but it doesn't sound good.

You can take care of that. But everyone else here doesn't have to take that comment and run with it. We're all adults...I think.

Hitcho
04-23-2009, 12:46 PM
Lots of high-and-mighty people around here.


As President, you should be the highest and mightiest Jack! :D:D:D

(And to get back on topic, I'm talking about the "simulation" issue in the OP, not whatever this sarcasm thing is)

Brooker
04-23-2009, 12:47 PM
he cramped up. if he wants a stretcher, so be it.

we pay him enough. he's one of our best players. u damn better give him a stretcher if he wants it. wasting time or not.

Pachuco
04-23-2009, 12:47 PM
Actually Jack, I was trying to understand what you meant by that?

"Lots of high-and-mighty people around here."

Sonny Cheeba
04-23-2009, 12:48 PM
HAHA, Guevara was probably pinching the guys legs so they would struggle to get him off.

:lol:

i don't know why but this really got me going. vivid imagination i guess

Gixmo
04-23-2009, 12:49 PM
He did have a cramp.. but pushed it a bit..

..... as a goalkeeper myself, I never had a problem taking a few extra sips from the bottle, or positioning the ball on the correct blade of grass to kill a few moments

Rhythm... upset it :)

dantdot
04-23-2009, 12:51 PM
It's gamesmanship folks. It's because Guevara's a winner, you win at all costs(within reason).

Jack
04-23-2009, 12:51 PM
Actually Jack, I was trying to understand what you meant by that?

"Lots of high-and-mighty people around here."
I think people are awfully quick to judge about stuff like this. People also judge other cultures based on the morals and standards of their own culture with very little frame of reference (which relates to T.Reis' comments)

trane
04-23-2009, 12:58 PM
We always talk about Dichio's age, but Guevarra is not much younger, and as a mid he does way more running, he could very easily just be bad cramps at the end of the game. But at the end of the day as long as he is match fit for Sunday. Who cares?

Pachuco
04-23-2009, 01:03 PM
I think people are awfully quick to judge about stuff like this. People also judge other cultures based on the morals and standards of their own culture with very little frame of reference (which relates to T.Reis' comments)

Agreed!

Beach_Red
04-23-2009, 01:07 PM
^ disagree.

the bottom line is it's SPORT, which means the game should be played sportingly, by everyone. if the bottom line becomes money then it's no longer sport, it's commerce. and that's a reality FIFA and others need to work harder on trying not to face.

Why?

Is commerce bad?

That old amateur vs. professional argument was just bullshit to keep poor people out, certainly we don't still believe it.

Anything that can help win the game is in pay.

Boris
04-23-2009, 01:09 PM
And with u being glad with Guevara's display u have just admitted you are of Latin/Iberian decent, and thus will be ridiculed by the English and there stand up ways towards football and the world.

come again?:rolleyes:

jabbronies
04-23-2009, 01:09 PM
As a fan of the English game of football, I hate diving and over acting.

However, as a fan of an MLS team, I have come to learn that acts like this will happen and are accepted by league officials. In order to win in this league, these tactics are not only nessesary, but required, to be a contender!

So yes, I loved that guevera, who plays for our team is timly with his actions to help us win games.

ensco
04-23-2009, 01:20 PM
I jumped on Guevara a bit for his antics in the KC game, but I think he was actually cramping up this time.

He does go down (and out) with an operatic florish, it has to be said.

I appreciate Guevara more and more each game. Wish I'd seen him in his prime.

Boris
04-23-2009, 01:22 PM
i think that there were some legit cramps as leading u to this he was grabbing the back of his leg.

Jack and i noticed this...

Jack
04-23-2009, 01:22 PM
As a fan of the English game of football, I hate diving and over acting.

However, as a fan of an MLS team, I have come to learn that acts like this will happen and are accepted by league officials. In order to win in this league, these tactics are not only nessesary, but required, to be a contender!

So yes, I loved that guevera, who plays for our team is timly with his actions to help us win games.
I think sometimes the MLS refs need the embellishment or they would miss most of the fouls :D :noidea:

Section225
04-23-2009, 01:24 PM
And with u being glad with Guevara's display u have just admitted you are of Latin/Iberian decent, and thus will be ridiculed by the English and there stand up ways towards football and the world.

I hope you are joking...

Boris
04-23-2009, 01:26 PM
I think sometimes the MLS refs need the embellishment or they would miss most of the fouls :D :noidea:

that and they need to be told what to do...
like that hand ball call from last night. The ref wasnt even close to the play but he saw enough chivas players asking for it. Next thing you know it was called. Its as if they are afraid of the players...

T.Reis
04-23-2009, 01:28 PM
holy Crap!

Trust me if i thought it was going to be taken so seriously I wouldn't have said anything. lol

It's more of an ongoing thing between the English and Portuguese supporters over at the Footy Blog for years now, and when I read the thread it just takes me back to all the finger pointing by the English supporters and then the Portuguese/S. American's trying to somehow justify it.

Sorry if it offended anyone....... Ban me from the sight if u think best, i should have known better and elaberated a little more.

Sorry boys! Do what u must!

Boris
04-23-2009, 01:29 PM
holy Crap!

Trust me if i thought it was going to be taken so seriously I wouldn't have said anything. lol

It's more of an ongoing thing between the English and Portuguese supporters over at the Footy Blog for years now, and when I read the thread it just takes me back to all the finger pointing by the English supporters and then the Portuguese/S. American's trying to somehow justify it.

Sorry if it offended anyone....... Ban me from the sight if u think best, i should have known better and elaberated a little more.

Sorry boys! Do what u must!

its very hard to tell when there are inside jokes being said....
its cool but just remember we all dont know what the deal is...

hmmm..i should take my own advice :D

Pachuco
04-23-2009, 01:29 PM
holy Crap!

Trust me if i thought it was going to be taken so seriously I wouldn't have said anything. lol

It's more of an ongoing thing between the English and Portuguese supporters over at the Footy Blog for years now, and when I read the thread it just takes me back to all the finger pointing by the English supporters and then the Portuguese/S. American's trying to somehow justify it.

Sorry if it offended anyone....... Ban me from the sight if u think best, i should have known better and elaberated a little more.

Sorry boys! Do what u must!

Sooo what's your opinion on the subject?

Boris
04-23-2009, 01:31 PM
Sooo what's your opinion on the subject?

:lol:
dont be too hard on him

Walnut
04-23-2009, 01:32 PM
Guevara deserves his own song.

When the ball hits the net
From a Honduran's head
That's Amado....

When Toronto explodes
Cos we just scored a goal
That's Amado...

*To the tune of Amore

Pachuco
04-23-2009, 01:34 PM
I always sing Amado Guevara to the tune of Guantanamera by myself. Someone suggested it a very long time ago and it's never left my head since then. People around me probably think I'm crazy but until we have a Guevara song, I'll keep singing it :)

rocker
04-23-2009, 01:34 PM
if Guevara was faking it, he did a good job! I was genuinely worried when I saw his facial expressions. I was jumping to conclusions, thinking "shit, what if we've lost him AND De Ro for a while.... ugh!"

T.Reis
04-23-2009, 01:59 PM
Sooo what's your opinion on the subject?


Well Mr. Pachuco, don't really got an opinion on it, if it one of the guys on my team doing it then it's tactical and thus acceptable, if it's the other team's guy then it's down right wrong, and he should be stoned.

However, if i may, not to drag this, espically cuz it's not the topic, but if anoyne cares to read on, because I said that the Latin's/Iberians were going to accept it while the English were going to hate it, u people got all pissy and got into this entire thing about how it was racist or something.

Seriously?

At first I had to get back to work (lol) so I just said sorry, my fault for not explaining it, but now that I got a second to think about it.....

You guys are turning into a bunch of fucking pussy's!!!!!!

*now I can be banned for life* See u guys on other forums!

Boris
04-23-2009, 02:00 PM
Well Mr. Pachuco, don't really got an opinion on it, if it one of the guys on my team doing it then it's tactical and thus acceptable, if it's the other team's guy then it's down right wrong, and he should be stoned.

However, if i may, not to drag this, espically cuz it's not the topic, but if anoyne cares to read on, because I said that the Latin's/Iberians were going to accept it while the English were going to hate it, u people got all pissy and got into this entire thing about how it was racist or something.

Seriously?

At first I had to get back to work (lol) so I just said sorry, my fault for not explaining it, but now that I got a second to think about it.....

You guys are turning into a bunch of fucking pussy's!!!!!!

*now I can be banned for life* See u guys on other forums!

................
read my post, it was one or two people whi said anything.

dont worry about it...

T_Mizz
04-23-2009, 02:05 PM
So is he good to go for KC then?

Jeffro
04-23-2009, 02:06 PM
And with u being glad with Guevara's display u have just admitted you are of Latin/Iberian decent, and thus will be ridiculed by the English and there stand up ways towards football and the world.

Did you have to make it a racial thing?

Roogsy
04-23-2009, 02:09 PM
I always sing Amado Guevara to the tune of Guantanamera by myself. Someone suggested it a very long time ago and it's never left my head since then. People around me probably think I'm crazy but until we have a Guevara song, I'll keep singing it :)

Preach on brother.

I do as well.

See my previous posts in this thread.

Jack
04-23-2009, 02:13 PM
Well Mr. Pachuco, don't really got an opinion on it, if it one of the guys on my team doing it then it's tactical and thus acceptable, if it's the other team's guy then it's down right wrong, and he should be stoned.

However, if i may, not to drag this, espically cuz it's not the topic, but if anoyne cares to read on, because I said that the Latin's/Iberians were going to accept it while the English were going to hate it, u people got all pissy and got into this entire thing about how it was racist or something.

Seriously?

At first I had to get back to work (lol) so I just said sorry, my fault for not explaining it, but now that I got a second to think about it.....

You guys are turning into a bunch of fucking pussy's!!!!!!

*now I can be banned for life* See u guys on other forums!

"All pissy"?

Racism in any form is not acceptable. The comment you made sure sounded borderline to me, which is why I asked you about it. If that makes me a pussy in your eyes, too bad.

I still fail to see how someone's nationality automatically makes them more succeptible to hold one opinion or another, except through stereotypes.

If you would prefer to post on other forums rather than this one, feel free. If you would like to continue to post on these forums, then these are the standards we hold.

Boris
04-23-2009, 02:14 PM
Did you have to make it a racial thing?

he explained it was an inside joke...

with that said...thats a lesson to everyone that even if you are joking its hard to make that known...

jokes like that wont be tolerated...

Jeffro
04-23-2009, 02:16 PM
he explained it was an inside joke...

with that said...thats a lesson to everyone that even if you are joking its hard to make that known...

jokes like that wont be tolerated...

I see that now that I've read the whole thread.... no worries, but shit, think before you post folks! :)

felipe
04-23-2009, 02:21 PM
I always sing to amado at home to the tune of 'Bananas in Pajamas'

my wife thinks I'm an idiot...

Chewy Unikronik
04-23-2009, 02:30 PM
I was laughing hard... It's obviously different when it's one of your own doing something that you wouldn't normally condone.

BakaGaijin
04-23-2009, 02:52 PM
I support time wasting. We need to get as many points as we possibly can. If a player takes longer to get off the pitch to take the momentum out of the and eat up time on the clock, I am all for it. You know damn well our opponents will do the same to us (except Montreal.....they are too stupid i.e. @ Santos Laguna).

I have a problem with the ball kids. It's all cute and shit that some 8 year old kid get's to throw soccer balls on the pitch......but I was a little disappointed last night when Barrett chased a ball down into Chivas' corner near the end of the match. Barrett couldn't keep the ball in, and he knocked it out for a goal kick. The ball rolled to our bench players who were warming up in the corner and one of them kicked the ball away from the Chivas player who was going to retrieve it. He kicked it away to waste time. Instead of letting the Chivas player chase down the ball that was kicked away, one of the ball kids threw a ball immeadiately to the keeper so that he could resume play ASAP. We need to teach these kids to waste time when we need to kill the clock.

For the record - my parents are of English decent. I am not Latin/Iberian...........whatever the fuck that stupid comment was about.......

Pachuco
04-23-2009, 02:59 PM
Well Mr. Pachuco, don't really got an opinion on it, if it one of the guys on my team doing it then it's tactical and thus acceptable, if it's the other team's guy then it's down right wrong, and he should be stoned.

However, if i may, not to drag this, espically cuz it's not the topic, but if anoyne cares to read on, because I said that the Latin's/Iberians were going to accept it while the English were going to hate it, u people got all pissy and got into this entire thing about how it was racist or something.

Seriously?

At first I had to get back to work (lol) so I just said sorry, my fault for not explaining it, but now that I got a second to think about it.....

You guys are turning into a bunch of fucking pussy's!!!!!!

*now I can be banned for life* See u guys on other forums!

I wasn't asking sarcastically if that's what you were thinking. I figured you posted in the thread, so why not state your opinion about what's actually being discussed? Anyhow, the second part of your post goes way to far but heck, who I am to talk, I get pissed off and feel like saying the same thing at times. Next time I'll give you a tip, type it out, but don't send it, walk away for 10 mins, if you come back and still feel the same way hit the send button and so be it ;)

Hitcho
04-23-2009, 03:12 PM
Why?

Is commerce bad?

That old amateur vs. professional argument was just bullshit to keep poor people out, certainly we don't still believe it.

Anything that can help win the game is in pay.

No, commerce is not bad of itself. But it stands for something very different to the common understanding of the word "sporting", which means fair play, respect for your opponent and maintainig the highest standards for the integrity of the sport you are playing. The basic ethos is that there is no glory in winning unless you win fairly.

I'm not saying that every player needs to be holier than thou in every respect, but there's a line that shouldn't be crossed. This is why examples of great sportsmanship are so often applauded. It's why the ball is thrown back to the other side when put out for a throw to allow a player to receive treatment.

The basic underlying mindset should always be sporting, not commerce. Commerce will layer itself on top to make money, because that's what commerce does. But it's down to the players, the officials, the coaches and the fans to make sure that commerce makes its money without the sporting mindset being sacrificed.

Yohan
04-23-2009, 03:19 PM
No, commerce is not bad of itself. But it stands for something very different to the common understanding of the word "sporting", which means fair play, respect for your opponent and maintainig the highest standards for the integrity of the sport you are playing. The basic ethos is that there is no glory in winning unless you win fairly.

I'm not saying that every player needs to be holier than thou in every respect, but there's a line that shouldn't be crossed. This is why examples of great sportsmanship are so often applauded. It's why the ball is thrown back to the other side when put out for a throw to allow a player to receive treatment.

The basic underlying mindset should always be sporting, not commerce. Commerce will layer itself on top to make money, because that's what commerce does. But it's down to the players, the officials, the coaches and the fans to make sure that commerce makes its money without the sporting mindset being sacrificed.
me ruv u rong time

dannyd
04-23-2009, 03:49 PM
"All pissy"?

Racism in any form is not acceptable. The comment you made sure sounded borderline to me, which is why I asked you about it. If that makes me a pussy in your eyes, too bad.

I still fail to see how someone's nationality automatically makes them more succeptible to hold one opinion or another, except through stereotypes.

If you would prefer to post on other forums rather than this one, feel free. If you would like to continue to post on these forums, then these are the standards we hold.

Jack, with all due respect I think this is going a little far. It was extremely obvious to me and anyone with half a brain that it was a complete joke. He wasn't insulting anyone's race, just joking about argmuments on this board.

If anyone was offended by that maybe being a football supporter isn't the right thing for you.

Just my 2 cents...

Jack
04-23-2009, 03:51 PM
Jack, with all due respect I think this is going a little far. It was extremely obvious to me and anyone with half a brain that it was a complete joke. He wasn't insulting anyone's race, just joking about argmuments on this board.

If anyone was offended by that maybe being a football supporter isn't the right thing for you.

Just my 2 cents...

Maybe not...but I'll keep on being one all the same, thanks :D

Shakes McQueen
04-23-2009, 03:53 PM
I hate diving and embellishing injuries, but I thought Guevara was legitimately hurting there.

I'd also like to point out to the person that used drawing fouls in basketball as an analogy, that drawing a foul isn't the same as rolling around on the ground in an exaggerated manner, pretending to be hurt. I support using good play to force your opponent into fouls. I don't support shitting all over the dignity of the game, by letting grown athletes pretend they are hurt.

Like I said though, I don't think this was the case with Guevara last night. He was signaling that he was done, a few minutes before he went down.

If diving and embellishment were eliminated from the game professionally, I think football would be better off for it. Of course, while FIFA tries to combat diving, embellishment is pretty much impossible to get rid of.

I think the best solution, would be - if a referee has to whistle down play for an "injured" player, that player should be stretchered off immediately. None of this shit where he gets a bottle of magic water and a talking to from the trainer for three minutes first, before the stretcher comes out (and the player promptly declines it). Get him off the pitch right away, and resume play.

- Scott

dannyd
04-23-2009, 03:55 PM
Maybe not...but I'll keep on being one all the same, thanks :D

sorry, I didn't mean you personally, I meant people who take jokes too seriously. Growing up in BC I got pretty tired of the overly PC environment, which I hope doesn't creep into this board.

-Dan

dantdot
04-23-2009, 03:57 PM
^ Taking a charge in basketball is no different than embellishing in soccer. Time wasting is something different altogether.

dannyd
04-23-2009, 03:58 PM
I hate diving and embellishing injuries, but I thought Guevara was legitimately hurting there.

I'd also like to point out to the person that used drawing fouls in basketball as an analogy, that drawing a foul isn't the same as rolling around on the ground in an exaggerated manner, pretending to be hurt. I support using good play to force your opponent into fouls. I don't support shitting all over the dignity of the game, by letting grown athletes pretend they are hurt.

Like I said though, I don't think this was the case with Guevara last night. He was signaling that he was done, a few minutes before he went down.

If diving and embellishment were eliminated from the game professionally, I think football would be better off for it. Of course, while FIFA tries to combat diving, embellishment is pretty much impossible to get rid of.

I think the best solution, would be - if a referee has to whistle down play for an "injured" player, that player should be stretchered off immediately. None of this shit where he gets a bottle of magic water and a talking to from the trainer for three minutes first, before the stretcher comes out (and the player promptly declines it). Get him off the pitch right away, and resume play.

- Scott

See I agree with this 100%. Timewasting, drawing fouls, taking liberties are part of the game in my opinion. To me it's different than flat out diving - that's cheating to me, and not acceptable. I wish that wasn't part of the game. They're two different things.

Jack
04-23-2009, 04:00 PM
sorry, I didn't mean you personally, I meant people who take jokes too seriously. Growing up in BC I got pretty tired of the overly PC environment, which I hope doesn't creep into this board.

-Dan
It's not about an overly PC environment, but you have to understand that a comment like that could be easily taken the wrong way.

There is a lot of scrutiny on TFC supporters lately and most of it is of the negative variety. There was a front page article on the Toronto Star recently which made a very thinly veiled link between us and racism incidents.

So when something that's easily misunderstood gets said, we want to be sure and clarify it. As you can see, some people took exception to the comment. Then T. Reis clarified, then he thought about it and came back to call us pussies (which was kind of funny, since I didn't think it was such a big deal). I simply told him that we don't tolerate racism or bigotry here. When a comment is borderline, we question it (as we did). You'll note that I just asked him what the comment meant. The problem is, many quotes around here have been taken out of context and used against us.

Shakes McQueen
04-23-2009, 04:06 PM
^ Taking a charge in basketball is no different than embellishing in soccer. Time wasting is something different altogether.

That's not really true, because a charging call in basketball is based on positioning, and whether the dribbler could have clearly avoided you ("respecting time and distance", as the NBA calls it). It's incredibly difficult to 100% act and fake your way to a charging call, that shouldn't have been a charging call anyway.

- Scott

nfitz
04-23-2009, 04:06 PM
Playing devils advocate:

Surely if the earlier comment could be seen as racist, calling people pussies is sexist.

joel
04-23-2009, 04:46 PM
I think he knew he was coming off, and decided there was no reason for him to stress himself anymore at the time and risk a more serious injury. It killed the game momentum as well and I'll take it.

Beach_Red
04-23-2009, 05:01 PM
No, commerce is not bad of itself. But it stands for something very different to the common understanding of the word "sporting", which means fair play, respect for your opponent and maintainig the highest standards for the integrity of the sport you are playing. The basic ethos is that there is no glory in winning unless you win fairly.

I'm not saying that every player needs to be holier than thou in every respect, but there's a line that shouldn't be crossed. This is why examples of great sportsmanship are so often applauded. It's why the ball is thrown back to the other side when put out for a throw to allow a player to receive treatment.

The basic underlying mindset should always be sporting, not commerce. Commerce will layer itself on top to make money, because that's what commerce does. But it's down to the players, the officials, the coaches and the fans to make sure that commerce makes its money without the sporting mindset being sacrificed.


Then the line should be written down and made part of the rules and when someone crosses it they should be penalized.

I like what you say about the sporting mindset not being sacrificed. I do like the idea of fair play and sportsmanship but historically it has favoured some people over others - winning and losing now means having a job or not, so while sposrtmanship should never be sacrificed, if someone's job is on the line they'll do anything they can get away with to keep it. Unless we're going back in time to the era of "gentlemens' games," and amateur sport.

If there's a behaviour the fans don't like just put it in the rule book.

And as we saw right away in this thread, it becomes a cultural difference - as all "unwritten codes" are.

Big Bruva
04-23-2009, 06:01 PM
Always hard to know when Amado is actually hurt for real but his antics is one of those things you hate when you play against him but when he is on ya team and does it at the right times and kills momentum you dont mind so much.

Amado often goes over the top though and i hate when i play against players like this, might have to resort to doing a (Pepe) next time someone dives so dramatically lol.

Im involved in a new Football/sports brand that will be launching soon call "(Firm)wear" and it represents the other side of the game which all the other companies never focus on (the players that play the engine, strong man, hustle) roles for their team like Serioux, Dichio etc so this brand might not really be for Amado lol

sweetlemon69
04-23-2009, 06:06 PM
stretching off the field to waste time with 2 minutes left, only adds another 2 minutes... he shoulda waited until 90

Blizzard
04-23-2009, 06:06 PM
that's fine, if he genuinely had a cramp. and if it's a cramp, i'm not sure if he was even embellishing then.

cramps suck balls

He went down briefly about 10 minutes before that. Same issue or so it looked to me as I saw him hobble back down field.

Yes, he may have made a meal out of it but I too genuinely believe that he had cramp.

dannyd
04-23-2009, 06:13 PM
It's not about an overly PC environment, but you have to understand that a comment like that could be easily taken the wrong way.

There is a lot of scrutiny on TFC supporters lately and most of it is of the negative variety. There was a front page article on the Toronto Star recently which made a very thinly veiled link between us and racism incidents.

So when something that's easily misunderstood gets said, we want to be sure and clarify it. As you can see, some people took exception to the comment. Then T. Reis clarified, then he thought about it and came back to call us pussies (which was kind of funny, since I didn't think it was such a big deal). I simply told him that we don't tolerate racism or bigotry here. When a comment is borderline, we question it (as we did). You'll note that I just asked him what the comment meant. The problem is, many quotes around here have been taken out of context and used against us.

Jack, I understand the situation you guys are in and it makes sense. I just thought there was some over reaction in that case and just trying to stand up for the guy.

It's your group and I understand what you're trying to do. I just wish you guys didn't care so much about what other people think (why does it matter?). I mean we all know what we stand for and we know we're good supporters and non-racists. Thats all that should matter in my opinion, not what the newspapers print. I think if you ask everyone in our group, they will agree racism isn't a problem with us.

But the fact is it does seem to be important to you guys what other people think who aren't in the group and I respect that.

Big Bruva
04-23-2009, 06:36 PM
Taking a charge in Basketball is the equivalant to diving in Football.

Pachuco
04-23-2009, 06:43 PM
Taking a charge in Basketball is the equivalant to diving in Football.

I don't know about that. Taking a charge is allowed in basketball. A dive isn't in football. It's more like it's the equivalent of exposing the ball in football and then getting in the way just in time to draw the foul (Guevara is actually pretty good at this). After all, the way I see it is if you get there first and draw the foul then good on you.

grimm
04-23-2009, 06:47 PM
Anyone who has played hockey knows the cramp in the hammy when you get home and lay in bed... I'm guessing it was one of those... they bring tears!~

e-karam
04-23-2009, 07:00 PM
It's different when he's doing it against Canada. It's normal to hate when the opponents misteriously cramp up or fall from being breathed on.

But if it's benefiting our team then I won't complain, although sometimes it's embarassing.

james
04-23-2009, 07:25 PM
not a fan of this flopping all over the field. I dont encourage this kind of crap play. Its why soccer is often viewed as a pussy sport.

Rocco
04-23-2009, 07:59 PM
it will always be hard to make the call. The ref is responsible for the safety of the players. Imagine if he was injured but the refree "felt" otherwise, how would you view the ref then?

I'm not a believer of impeleshment. HOWEVER, there is a fine line between gamemanship and impeleshment. There is a fine balance between either extreems and I think Guevara found it last night. He's a professional and even if he wasn't injured, I'll always give him the benefit of the doubt.

If you wanna cry foul or fair, then is it fair that the ref didnt call a PK against DD? Or is it fair that Vitti got a flying elbow? Or late tackle on Wynn? Or the offsides called left right and center? OR the extra 4 minutes of added time where there were almost no injuries in the second half? If you wanna cry fair or foul, sports is not a game of fairness, it's a game of competition. Competition will never be fair. As kids grow up, they'll learn this lesson just like you and I have. Sometimes fair isn't fair. It's all about time and place. It was the right time for Guevara to go down, right in the middle of the field after a possible foul.

Shakes McQueen
04-23-2009, 08:21 PM
I don't know about that. Taking a charge is allowed in basketball. A dive isn't in football. It's more like it's the equivalent of exposing the ball in football and then getting in the way just in time to draw the foul (Guevara is actually pretty good at this). After all, the way I see it is if you get there first and draw the foul then good on you.

Agree. Drawing fouls in the right places, is perfectly fine with me. That's part of the game.

Diving is expressly forbidden by the rules, and pretending to be hurt is just poor sportsmanship at it's core, whether you're personally "okay" with it or not.


- Scott

Big Bruva
04-23-2009, 08:36 PM
I don't know about that. Taking a charge is allowed in basketball. A dive isn't in football. It's more like it's the equivalent of exposing the ball in football and then getting in the way just in time to draw the foul (Guevara is actually pretty good at this). After all, the way I see it is if you get there first and draw the foul then good on you.

I don't mean if one is allowed or not etc i just look at both as roughly the same thing coz they both are acting.

In basketball they are taking a charge and a lot of times they dive backwards dramatically to sell to the ref that it was a charge and go sliding how many yards on the floor but if you actually tried to push a lot of these players with two hands you couldn't even make them fall over.


Football the same thing, players get touched and dive and roll like it was actually that contact that sent them flying and rolling 5 times to sell to the ref that it was a fould and that the player who committed it should be booked but if you actually went up to a player after to the game and actually kicked him in his leg he motly like wouldn't even fall down lol

Shakes McQueen
04-23-2009, 08:44 PM
I don't mean if one is allowed or not etc i just look at both as roughly the same thing coz they both are acting.

In basketball they are taking a charge and a lot of times they dive backwards dramatically to sell to the ref that it was a charge and go sliding how many yards on the floor but if you actually tried to push a lot of these players with two hands you couldn't even make them fall over.


Football the same thing, players get touched and dive and roll like it was actually that contact that sent them flying and rolling 5 times to sell to the ref that it was a fould and that the player who committed it should be booked but if you actually went up to a player after to the game and actually kicked him in his leg he motly like wouldn't even fall down lol

To be fair, exaggerating contact to get a call, is very different from rolling around on the ground for three minutes, pretending to be hurt.

- Scott

felipe
04-23-2009, 09:36 PM
I would categorically state that taking a charge in basketball is nothing like diving in footy.

Now, embellishing a charge and embellishing a foul, both to ensure that they are called would be the same thing.

I hate the rolling around thing, very emasculating if you ask me.

Even if you are hurt, why would you give them the satisfaction of showing it? Pick yourself up quietly, and tear their head off when the ref's attention is diverted elsewhere...or pull a 'Keano', that's the proper way to react.

Jack
04-23-2009, 09:48 PM
Jack, I understand the situation you guys are in and it makes sense. I just thought there was some over reaction in that case and just trying to stand up for the guy.

It's your group and I understand what you're trying to do. I just wish you guys didn't care so much about what other people think (why does it matter?). I mean we all know what we stand for and we know we're good supporters and non-racists. Thats all that should matter in my opinion, not what the newspapers print. I think if you ask everyone in our group, they will agree racism isn't a problem with us.

But the fact is it does seem to be important to you guys what other people think who aren't in the group and I respect that.

It's not so much the "others" we're concerned about as we know what we do and what we stand for, but at the same time many of our members were affected by the negativity at work and in their day to day lives. It's unfortunate and we would like to avoid this. No one likes it when falsehoods are spread about them. We know what we do and we are very proud of it, at the end of the day that's what's important, you're right.

FluSH
04-23-2009, 11:02 PM
It's not so much the "others" we're concerned about as we know what we do and what we stand for, but at the same time many of our members were affected by the negativity at work and in their day to day lives. It's unfortunate and we would like to avoid this. No one likes it when falsehoods are spread about them. We know what we do and we are very proud of it, at the end of the day that's what's important, you're right.

Well said,

Many of us represent TFC in the workforce... a lot of my clients look at me differently now... and my co-workers now have an arsenal they can use if they wish to put me down for whatever reason... be it that next promotion or simply cause we don't get along. We don't all have the luxury of beign self-employed or beign protected by unions... it's a dog-eat-dog world in my field...

P.S. How many stories have we read in the newspapers of people getting fired over facebook pictures? or their social internet activity? Now Imagine something blatant and false associated with you appearing on newspapers?

Maple Leaf Red
04-24-2009, 12:46 PM
I would categorically state that taking a charge in basketball is nothing like diving in footy.

Now, embellishing a charge and embellishing a foul, both to ensure that they are called would be the same thing.

I hate the rolling around thing, very emasculating if you ask me.

Even if you are hurt, why would you give them the satisfaction of showing it? Pick yourself up quietly, and tear their head off when the ref's attention is diverted elsewhere...or pull a 'Keano', that's the proper way to react.
Have you seen Vlad Divac or Ginobili taking charges?

And I am not sure that we want our players going out to try to end player's careers either.

Anyway, I think it should have been pretty clear, as Jack noted, that Guevara was struggling towards the end and it was a fair injury.

Pachuco
04-24-2009, 12:50 PM
Have you seen Vlad Divac or Ginobili taking charges?

And I am not sure that we want our players going out to try to end player's careers either.

Anyway, I think it should have been pretty clear, as Jack noted, that Guevara was struggling towards the end and it was a fair injury.

I was in 109. Pretty far away from the play. All I saw is that in the 90th minute he went down and they took forever to get him off the field. You can understand why I went under the assumption that he was killing time, and maybe it was a bit of both, we'll never know.

Get In There
04-24-2009, 01:03 PM
I don't mean if one is allowed or not etc i just look at both as roughly the same thing coz they both are acting.

In basketball they are taking a charge and a lot of times they dive backwards dramatically to sell to the ref that it was a charge and go sliding how many yards on the floor but if you actually tried to push a lot of these players with two hands you couldn't even make them fall over.


Football the same thing, players get touched and dive and roll like it was actually that contact that sent them flying and rolling 5 times to sell to the ref that it was a fould and that the player who committed it should be booked but if you actually went up to a player after to the game and actually kicked him in his leg he motly like wouldn't even fall down lol


Fantastic analogy - the BB charge. I'm going to use that one to explain the footy fall.

After watching Vitti a bit I notice how he get's the call every time a defender comes up on him from behind quickly and puts a knee to the back of his leg and a push on his back from the defenders chest- boom he's down and get's the call. A real skill that brings value.

You're right BB - exactly how Mo P would take the charge

B

Get In There
04-24-2009, 01:16 PM
Well said,

Many of us represent TFC in the workforce... a lot of my clients look at me differently now... and my co-workers now have an arsenal they can use if they wish to put me down for whatever reason... be it that next promotion or simply cause we don't get along. We don't all have the luxury of beign self-employed or beign protected by unions... it's a dog-eat-dog world in my field...

P.S. How many stories have we read in the newspapers of people getting fired over facebook pictures? or their social internet activity? Now Imagine something blatant and false associated with you appearing on newspapers?


Come on ....losing promotions or business because of TFC support?

If that's the case, then 'what's the first rule of fight club'?

B