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Shakes McQueen
04-22-2009, 12:20 AM
This topic was discussed a little bit pre-season, in a tangential discussion about whether DeRo would become the captain of TFC.

After watching the first five games of the season, does anyone have any doubts as to whether Jimmy B is the right captain for this team?

I noticed something during our last match, and it was noticed by others in the game thread too, which is that we seemed to come flying out of the gate in our last couple of matches - both at the beginning of the game, and the beginning of the second half. But as time wore on, we became directionless, and listess again.

As time ticks away, good leadership is vital to giving a team the kick in the pants it needs to get the job done, and not to get rattled when under pressure. Our defending has looked thoroughly rattled, from midfield to backline. Panicky defending in our third of the pitch has directly resulted in a lot of the frustrating long ball play we are seeing.

I know Jimmy B was our first signing, and our first Canadian. I also happen to think he's a great guy, having met him before, and seen enough of him over the past few years with TFC and the CMNT. I respect him immensely.

All of that romanticizing out of the way, I'm really starting to question whether, at this stage of the club's life, he is the kind of personality we need captaining our team?

A good captain knows when to tell their team to slow things down, and get momentum shifting back in their favour. He can organize play, and calm players down. Our team hasn't done any of those things in the past four games - our defense often bypasses the midfield entirely with their passes and clearances, and our backs frequently bump and trip over each other in and around the box.

Please understand I'm not necessarily asserting that he's the wrong captain for our team. I'm just musing about these things for the sake of dicussion, because I know I'm not alone in seeing the above things.

- Scott

Ossington Mental Youth
04-22-2009, 12:39 AM
as much as i love him and respect him, i would argue no, id say Robbo or if he spoke english (and im gonna get crucified for this) Guevara

Cashcleaner
04-22-2009, 12:56 AM
I would argue that he is the right choice for us right now and futhermore, I think it would be quite detrimental to his morale and to the others if that were to change. You can argue that his captaincy was a romantic gesture, but despite that it really is one of those things you don't just ask for back and give to someone else.

Brooker
04-22-2009, 01:04 AM
I would argue that he is the right choice for us right now and futhermore, I think it would be quite detrimental to his morale and to the others if that were to change. You can argue that his captaincy was a romantic gesture, but despite that it really is one of those things you don't just ask for back and give to someone else.

QFT

close this sucker.

Shakes McQueen
04-22-2009, 01:10 AM
I would argue that he is the right choice for us right now and futhermore, I think it would be quite detrimental to his morale and to the others if that were to change. You can argue that his captaincy was a romantic gesture, but despite that it really is one of those things you don't just ask for back and give to someone else.

I don't know - look at Arsenal. The team was coming off a horrid 1-1-3 league run, and Wenger stripped the captaincy from William Gallas. At the time, it was seen as a sign of how dysfunctional things were at Arsenal. Since giving the armband to Fabregas, they have been on an 18 league game unbeaten streak.

Clearly giving him the captaincy wasn't the only reason for their improvement (or even a reason), because Fabregas promptly got injured for a couple of months, but it certainly didn't lead to the collapse of the morale of the team, or even Gallas himself. If anything, his play seemed to improve with the responsibility off his shoulders.

I think it's pretty "gutsy" to take the armband away from someone, when they haven't ostensibly done anything wrong, but it isn't without precedent. :D

Furthermore, I think it's kind of crazy that people will muse about firing this coach or that GM, but switching captains is considered a topic not worthy of even discussion (at least by Brooker :D)

- Scott

Ossington Mental Youth
04-22-2009, 01:56 AM
I would argue that he is the right choice for us right now and futhermore, I think it would be quite detrimental to his morale and to the others if that were to change. You can argue that his captaincy was a romantic gesture, but despite that it really is one of those things you don't just ask for back and give to someone else.

very reasonable argument.
Ishould say that for the record i think taking it away from him right now would be a bad move

Jeffro
04-22-2009, 02:03 AM
I don't know who, right now, on our squad has shown they should displace him

Shakes McQueen
04-22-2009, 02:06 AM
I don't know who, right now, on our squad has shown they should displace him

This is a good point.

- Scott

Wagner
04-22-2009, 05:55 AM
Jimmy B is still the right choice.
and as stated above, you don't just rip it from someone.

Shakes McQueen
04-22-2009, 06:10 AM
Jimmy B is still the right choice.
and as stated above, you don't just rip it from someone.

Why is Jimmy B the right choice? What makes him the right choice?

I'm curious to know why folks think he's the right choice. It's clear that they won't take the armband away from him, without him doing something to deserve it, so this is all just idle chat anyway.

- Scott

sidney
04-22-2009, 06:12 AM
At this point (for this season), yes, I think Jimmy B is the right choice for captaining the TFC-ship. He's consistent, hard in a tackle, quick and active the whole length of his flank, has a great left foot, committed, passionate, solid, and he's been around for more than 3 months (DeRo) or 1.3 months (Guevera). With regards to Robo, he's got to stop pissing the ball away so much before he should be considered.

trane
04-22-2009, 06:31 AM
Do you realy think this is the issue with our club? Do we have the rigth captain? I am sorry but this is so misguided. He may be, he may not be, there are biger problems with the club that this.

drewski
04-22-2009, 06:34 AM
I would argue that he is the right choice for us right now and futhermore, I think it would be quite detrimental to his morale and to the others if that were to change. You can argue that his captaincy was a romantic gesture, but despite that it really is one of those things you don't just ask for back and give to someone else.

+1

these would be the main reason's why I think he shouldn't be stripped of his captaincy


another reason which comes from this comment


A good captain knows when to tell their team to slow things down, and get momentum shifting back in their favour. He can organize play, and calm players down. Our team hasn't done any of those things in the past four games - our defense often bypasses the midfield entirely with their passes and clearances, and our backs frequently bump and trip over each other in and around the box.

as you pointed out, nobody else has stepped up to do these things and there's really no point in stripping him of his captaincy if there isn't somebody else more deserving to replace him.

IF there was somebody who was more deserving of being the captain, they should be leading by example and stepping up and doing these things you mention with or without the armband

Shakes McQueen
04-22-2009, 06:40 AM
Do you realy think this is the issue with our club? Do we have the rigth captain? I am sorry but this is so misguided. He may be, he may not be, there are biger problems with the club that this.

I never once said I thought it was the issue with our club. Holy hell, haha.

I asked people whether they thought Brennan was the right captain for our club. It's one of the many strains of idle jibber jabber that make up a supporters discussion board, and there isn't anything "misguided" about it at all. If we aren't making post after post deconstructing either our tactics, or who should be fired, it's a waste of time now?

It was a simple question, and I was interested to hear what other people had to say about it, since our captaincy has never really been critically broken down.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
04-22-2009, 06:46 AM
+1

these would be the main reason's why I think he shouldn't be stripped of his captaincy


another reason which comes from this comment



as you pointed out, nobody else has stepped up to do these things and there's really no point in stripping him of his captaincy if there isn't somebody else more deserving to replace him.

IF there was somebody who was more deserving of being the captain, they should be leading by example and stepping up and doing these things you mention with or without the armband

I was more interested in hearing why people do or don't think Jimmy B is the right guy for the job - not just people saying that taking it away would be a big slap to Jimmy B's face, and would hurt morale.

It's clear that the club isn't going to take the captaincy away from Brennan for no reason, just as it's clear that Mo isn't going to make staffing or roster changes based on the conversations we have here.

I wanted to know what people thought of the job Brennan does as captain, and whether they think anyone else on the team would be a better candidate - if indeed the job were up for grabs. That's all.

- Scott

Pachuco
04-22-2009, 08:09 AM
I personally can see both sides of the argument here. Shakes as always makes some really good points and I can see how people are saying it could be time for a change. Havind said that, my opinion is I don't know enough to form an opinion. I say that because a big job of a captain is how he handles the team off the field, specially in the locker room. This is one piece that I'm missing and therefore I can't comment. All I'll say is that if Jimmy B is not performing as a captain should (in the locker room) then hopefully Carver would have the balls to make a change.

As for who can be a replacement: I think the answer is pretty easy..Robbo. He's been captain before and he's our assistance captain. He also is the type of player who can lead by example, you rarely see him having a poor game and he seems to be our most consistent player.

sully
04-22-2009, 08:12 AM
Aren't Robinson and Brennan co-captains are something like that? Anyway, Brennan's got to start leading this team..he's gotta be vocal and set the example..

Parkdale
04-22-2009, 08:15 AM
everyone knows that Robbo is the 'on field captain' and Brennan is the 'official captain'.

I think it works right now. Robbo knows he's not going to get the recognition now,
but it seems like he's comfortable with that position. He leads us on the field.

plus, Brennan is a bit of a hothead and that's NOT a good quality in a captain.
During the game, let Robbo be the guy who talks to the ref when necessary.

Lucky Strike
04-22-2009, 08:16 AM
I was more interested in hearing why people do or don't think Jimmy B is the right guy for the job - not just people saying that taking it away would be a big slap to Jimmy B's face, and would hurt morale.

It's clear that the club isn't going to take the captaincy away from Brennan for no reason, just as it's clear that Mo isn't going to make staffing or roster changes based on the conversations we have here.

I wanted to know what people thought of the job Brennan does as captain, and whether they think anyone else on the team would be a better candidate - if indeed the job were up for grabs. That's all.

- Scott

Alright, here goes:

1. I do think Brennan is the right guy and it goes beyond the fact that no one else could do better (aside from Robbo who is his equal - but as discussed, the team won't just arbitrarily change captains).

2. Brennan is the right choice for captain, because:

a) he plays hard and always gives 100%
b) wears his heart on his sleeve and shows he cares a lot about the team
c) gets in the face of others for diving (remember the "diving cunt" situation) which to me means he's protecting TFC from fake fouls and potentially bad refereeing
d) plays through injuries (remember 2007 - sure, none of those affected his legs/lower body, but he did play through some cracked ribs, which I understand is a very painful injury).

Are there some things he could do better? Maybe, I don't know, the camera isn't often focused on him during the run of play since he plays at LB and we can't really know what goes on in the locker room.

All in all, Jimmy B is OK for me.

Beach_Red
04-22-2009, 08:19 AM
everyone knows that Robbo is the 'on field captain' and Brennan is the 'official captain'.


This more than anything shows how this team has not progressed since it was a started-from-scratch expansion team.

Three years in, no offense to those guys, but we should be moving forward more.

Section 117
04-22-2009, 08:20 AM
It is nice that mpst people are defending Jimmy....

But he is a horrible defender and IMO and if he were on any other team in this league there is no way he would start. He is better off as a being the 5 midfielder starting occasionally nothing more.

I rather have either Robinson or Dichio as the captain

Wagner
04-22-2009, 08:20 AM
Why is Jimmy B the right choice? What makes him the right choice?

I'm curious to know why folks think he's the right choice. It's clear that they won't take the armband away from him, without him doing something to deserve it, so this is all just idle chat anyway.

- Scott

His commitment to the team. (putting club before country)
His playing through injuries. (playing with broken ribs when we are short players)
His passion. (he won't back down from anyone, he'll get in a ref's grill)
His ability. (he's one of our best players)
His accessibility. (he's a great ambassador)

Wooster_TFC
04-22-2009, 09:06 AM
In modern football, the captain is really simply a signal of honour. It's not like they are the only ones allowed to talk to the ref, or have any other allowances specific to the captain.

In my opinion, no one has shown that they can be a better captain than Jimmy, and that is the sole reason why he still has the armband. You don't take away the armband for shits and giggles.

On the flip side, I am a little concerned that because of Jimmy's position on the field, he's not able to be as vocal as a captain should be. Serioux needs to be the most vocal on the backline, Robbo in the middle, and DeRo up front I would say.

Out of curiosity, outside of Maldini and Neville (for Man U) in recent years, how often is a fullback a captain?

Fushida
04-22-2009, 09:24 AM
In modern football, the captain is really simply a signal of honour. It's not like they are the only ones allowed to talk to the ref, or have any other allowances specific to the captain.

In my opinion, no one has shown that they can be a better captain than Jimmy, and that is the sole reason why he still has the armband. You don't take away the armband for shits and giggles.

On the flip side, I am a little concerned that because of Jimmy's position on the field, he's not able to be as vocal as a captain should be. Serioux needs to be the most vocal on the backline, Robbo in the middle, and DeRo up front I would say.

Out of curiosity, outside of Maldini and Neville (for Man U) in recent years, how often is a fullback a captain?

I agree with you... as long as we have personalities like Robbo and DeRo up front, it doesn't matter where Jimmy is on the field. I'd worry about it if he were the only one barking out orders, but experience and leadership is needed in every area of the field, and its not realistic to expect one person to deliver.

Wildgreek
04-22-2009, 09:40 AM
everyone knows that Robbo is the 'on field captain' and Brennan is the 'official captain'.



This sounds like an episode of the Sopranos except instead of HBO its live at BMO

bhoybobby
04-22-2009, 09:40 AM
This topic was discussed a little bit pre-season, in a tangential discussion about whether DeRo would become the captain of TFC.

After watching the first five games of the season, does anyone have any doubts as to whether Jimmy B is the right captain for this team?

I noticed something during our last match, and it was noticed by others in the game thread too, which is that we seemed to come flying out of the gate in our last couple of matches - both at the beginning of the game, and the beginning of the second half. But as time wore on, we became directionless, and listess again.

As time ticks away, good leadership is vital to giving a team the kick in the pants it needs to get the job done, and not to get rattled when under pressure. Our defending has looked thoroughly rattled, from midfield to backline. Panicky defending in our third of the pitch has directly resulted in a lot of the frustrating long ball play we are seeing.

I know Jimmy B was our first signing, and our first Canadian. I also happen to think he's a great guy, having met him before, and seen enough of him over the past few years with TFC and the CMNT. I respect him immensely.

All of that romanticizing out of the way, I'm really starting to question whether, at this stage of the club's life, he is the kind of personality we need captaining our team?

A good captain knows when to tell their team to slow things down, and get momentum shifting back in their favour. He can organize play, and calm players down. Our team hasn't done any of those things in the past four games - our defense often bypasses the midfield entirely with their passes and clearances, and our backs frequently bump and trip over each other in and around the box.

Please understand I'm not necessarily asserting that he's the wrong captain for our team. I'm just musing about these things for the sake of dicussion, because I know I'm not alone in seeing the above things.

- Scott

Jimmy B's fine as captain, bottom line is that leaders lead, they don't need an armband, Jimmy leads as does Robbo & DD when he's on.

Yohan
04-22-2009, 09:41 AM
Alright, here goes:

1. I do think Brennan is the right guy and it goes beyond the fact that no one else could do better (aside from Robbo who is his equal - but as discussed, the team won't just arbitrarily change captains).

2. Brennan is the right choice for captain, because:

a) he plays hard and always gives 100%
b) wears his heart on his sleeve and shows he cares a lot about the team
c) gets in the face of others for diving (remember the "diving cunt" situation) which to me means he's protecting TFC from fake fouls and potentially bad refereeing
d) plays through injuries (remember 2007 - sure, none of those affected his legs/lower body, but he did play through some cracked ribs, which I understand is a very painful injury).

Are there some things he could do better? Maybe, I don't know, the camera isn't often focused on him during the run of play since he plays at LB and we can't really know what goes on in the locker room.

All in all, Jimmy B is OK for me.
Most of the stuff you are describing is 'work rate' which is required for a good player.

Being a team captain requires leadership, which is a completely different set of skills. Good work rate is a requirement for leadership (lead by example), but there are other skills, like, inspiring others, good communication, charisma, interpersonal skills, etc.

So if you look at the team performance, do you think Jimmy B is getting the other 10 guys on the field to step it up a notch on critical moments of the game?

I think Jimmy B is a good team player. He gives it all. But I dont think he's that good of a leader.

Arnie Knows
04-22-2009, 11:04 AM
Jimmy B is out of shape this year ,, I think he's been breast feeding

ExiledRed
04-22-2009, 11:21 AM
Frei's going to be goalkeeper captain, one day.

TFCREDNWHITE
04-22-2009, 11:31 AM
I think it should be Robbo.....

bangersandmash
04-22-2009, 11:40 AM
Frei's going to be goalkeeper captain, one day.

I was thinking the same thing. Does anyone else get the impression that the D is stronger when Frei is playing? I think he communicates better with the backline. Just a feeling, though.

trail
04-22-2009, 12:23 PM
Stick with Jimmy

Sonny Cheeba
04-22-2009, 12:30 PM
Jimmy B is still the right choice.
and as stated above, you don't just rip it from someone.

why can't you rip it from someone? people have to prove that they're worthy of being captain. it's not like they deserve severance if they get stripped of their title.

i don't really see anyone else who should be captain other than Jimmy RIGHT NOW. but we'll see how things are in a few games.

Yohan
04-22-2009, 12:39 PM
why can't you rip it from someone? people have to prove that they're worthy of being captain. it's not like they deserve severance if they get stripped of their title.

i don't really see anyone else who should be captain other than Jimmy RIGHT NOW. but we'll see how things are in a few games.
a bit of hijack, but your avatar makes me lol everytime.

silly paul bearer

Sonny Cheeba
04-22-2009, 12:55 PM
^ Good!

Lucky Strike
04-22-2009, 01:13 PM
Most of the stuff you are describing is 'work rate' which is required for a good player.

Being a team captain requires leadership, which is a completely different set of skills. Good work rate is a requirement for leadership (lead by example), but there are other skills, like, inspiring others, good communication, charisma, interpersonal skills, etc.

So if you look at the team performance, do you think Jimmy B is getting the other 10 guys on the field to step it up a notch on critical moments of the game?

I think Jimmy B is a good team player. He gives it all. But I dont think he's that good of a leader.

That's very true but I find myself having a bit of trouble evaluating that since I don't hang out with him everyday nor can I hear what he says on the pitch. I'm not saying you're wrong or anything like that, just that I can't tell whether he has those things that I bolded in your post.

I do see him barking orders from time to time, but I'd say it's hard to judge charisma, interpersonal skills and the level to which he inspires others.

But you're right, those components are important, but I focused on what I could see, which I suppose can give an incomplete picture, but I don't know what else we can do to determine those things.

Azerban
04-22-2009, 01:19 PM
Frei's going to be goalkeeper captain, one day.

not here, he won't


he won't be here long enough

Yohan
04-22-2009, 01:36 PM
That's very true but I find myself having a bit of trouble evaluating that since I don't hang out with him everyday nor can I hear what he says on the pitch. I'm not saying you're wrong or anything like that, just that I can't tell whether he has those things that I bolded in your post.

I do see him barking orders from time to time, but I'd say it's hard to judge charisma, interpersonal skills and the level to which he inspires others.

But you're right, those components are important, but I focused on what I could see, which I suppose can give an incomplete picture, but I don't know what else we can do to determine those things.
you're right. we don't see enough to make a judgement esp in locker room.

in my experience, leaders get the results from their fellows when it is clutch time a lot of the times. I just dont see that from Jimmy B, no matter how good of a player he is individually

kitchener-TFC
04-22-2009, 06:12 PM
I believe the captain of our beloved Toronto FC should be Carl Robinson.

NewcastleFan
04-22-2009, 06:19 PM
The players will choose the captain. If Brennan has their support, which he does, then there is no reason why he should not be the captain.