Carver fined after criticizing ref

[DangerRed]

Not a huge fine, but still...

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/soccer/2009-04-21-163497959_x.htm

[flatpicker]

his frustration is understandable... but leagues do have rules regarding what folks can say about refs.
I'm sure he doesn't mind paying $750 to let off some steam.

[Carts]

Hell, I'd donate a toonie every game for the "Carver 'have a go at the refs' fund"... :)

If 500 of us did it - there'd be $1000 kicking around every match if needed... If not, we donate it to charity - everyone wins!

I'm sure the MLS would love a charity donation made in the name "in case our coach has to rip your shit refs!" movement :)

Carts...

[LucaGol]

John Carver's just a blockhead. I mean what is he even talking about. Does he even realize we're the worst prepared team in the entire league? The more he talks, the worse he makes himself look.

... I think his nickname from his Leeds United days deserves resurrecting ... "Concrete Carver"

[Lucky Strike]

Not surprised, but whatever, sometimes it needs to be said.

I liked the idea last year of when Carver declined our generosity in paying his fine and the money was donated to the Canadian National Institute for the Blind - a backhanded way of further criticizing the referee.

[Boris]

lets not turn this into the usual fire this and that thread guys...
if so go to one of the other threads that have that...

[Carts]

lets not turn this into the usual fire this and that thread guys...
if so go to one of the other threads that have that...

Lock it now, the UR's will just hammer Carver all night...

Carts...

[Boris]

Lock it now, the UR's will just hammer Carver all night...

Carts...

i would but im giving everyone the benefit of the doubt right now

[DangerRed]

John Carver's just a blockhead. I mean what is he even talking about. Does he even realize we're the worst prepared team in the entire league? The more he talks, the worse he makes himself look.

... I think his nickname from his Leeds United days deserves resurrecting ... "Concrete Carver"

Really? You find a way to troll in every single thread, don't you? I'd think it would get boring for you, but you somehow manage. Sad, dude. Go find a European team to follow.

[LucaGol]

lets not turn this into the usual fire this and that thread guys...
if so go to one of the other threads that have that...

Is this or this not a thread to discuss Carver being fined/reprimanded for the umpteenth time?

2+2 = 4

What do you call someone makes the same mistakes repeatedly?


Why do we have to defend this man? He's a boer.

[Boris]

Is this or this not a thread to discuss Carver being fined/reprimanded for the umpteenth time?

2+2 = 4

What do you call someone makes the same mistakes repeatedly?


Why do we have to defend this man? He's a boer.

i am not defending him
it was a general warning to people

one thing is discussing the issue, which we all know there is one...
another is trolling and creating shit storms

[DangerRed]

Great, first thread I create and it's about to get locked because of a troll.

[LucaGol]

Really? You find a way to troll in every single thread, don't you? I'd think it would get boring for you, but you somehow manage. Sad, dude. Go find a European team to follow.

I cheer for a European team already thank you, ... Parma, Serie B. A team that at least had the sense to fire their manager when they were 4th bottom of the table after 7 games this season.

Where are they now, 2nd top, in line for promotion.

[Boris]

I cheer for a European team already thank you, ... Parma, Serie B. A team that at least had the sense to fire their manager when they were 4th bottom of the table after 7 games this season.

Where are they now, 2nd top, in line for promotion.

dont turn this into a back and forth....
stay on topic or go vent in a pre existing thread....

[LucaGol]

i am not defending him
it was a general warning to people

one thing is discussing the issue, which we all know there is one...
another is trolling and creating shit storms

Honestly, this is getting tiresome.

Please provide me of an example of what I should have posted.


Thread: Carver got fined again

Me: Great news ... I can't wait until he gets fined again.


That better.

[DangerRed]

I think the fine size is reasonable, honestly, because if you look at the tradition of the game, the coach never ever has any business criticizing referees. It's just the way it is.

I liked Carver's pregame scrum that's up on torontofc.ca. I'm with him -- all good things, including Chivas' streak, come to an end. Hopefully tomorrow! Go TFC!!

[Boris]

Honestly, this is getting tiresome.

Please provide me of an example of what I should have posted.


Thread: Carver got fined again

Me: Great news ... I can't wait until he gets fined again.


That better.

again...it was a warning...to everyone!!!

[jloome]

Why do we have to defend this man? He's a boer.

The voice of wisdom, unless you speak Afrikaans.

[K1nG]

I think the next fine JC gets should be for boring supporters with his dump and chase approach to football.

[Boris]

I think the next fine JC gets should be for boring supporters with his dump and chase approach to football.

keep discussing that in the thread...
http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=12103&page=2

[K1nG]

keep discussing that in the thread...
http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=12103&page=2
I see you are passionate about what is said in this thread. Would you be so kind as to give me some guidelines as to what should be said in a post in this thread?

[MrHawk]

Awaiting bans...........

GO GO GADGET BAN BUTTON.

[Boris]

I see you are passionate about what is said in this thread. Would you be so kind as to give me some guidelines as to what should be said in a post in this thread?

dont tempt me...
you know why im sayng this...

[K1nG]

dont tempt me...
you know why im sayng this...
ok ok ok Im sorry Master.

[Shakes McQueen]

ok ok ok Im sorry Master.

Before you get a red card from the site for a while:

Not "master" - "moderator". As in, he MODERATES discussion on this forum, which includes asking people to discuss issues in the appropriate thread.

Simple.

- Scott

[Roogsy]

Its cool Scott...he's on vacation.

[Shakes McQueen]

Its cool Scott...he's on vacation.

Didn't notice before I had posted. Sorry Roogs. :D

- Scott

[TFC_Chris]

Hell, I'd donate a toonie every game for the "Carver 'have a go at the refs' fund"... :)

If 500 of us did it - there'd be $1000 kicking around every match if needed... If not, we donate it to charity - everyone wins!

I'm sure the MLS would love a charity donation made in the name "in case our coach has to rip your shit refs!" movement :)

Carts...

Carts, I love this idea...
It would at the very minimum make his post-game comments hilarious...
Just have the press conference a series of Yo Mama Jokes coming from Carver against the refs... :hump:

[Hustle]

Even if your not a supporter of Carver, how can put him down for speaking his mind on a call that was recognized by commentators around the league as obviously wrong when the game was on the line.
When he is frustrated, he vents, but does it in an effective way that gets attention without sounding immature. Good for him.

[Shakes McQueen]

Even if your not a supporter of Carver, how can put him down for speaking his mind on a call that was recognized by commentators around the league as obviously wrong when the game was on the line.
When he is frustrated, he vents, but does it in an effective way that gets attention without sounding immature. Good for him.

I agree and disagree at the same time.

Kudos to him for speaking his mind, but I personally thought his rant was a bit ridiculous. I agree with him that the call was bad, and clearly it took us from getting one point to zero.

However, treating that call as if it was the only thing that went wrong for us, was wrong. Our play was pitiful for 90% of the game. Saying we "dominated" the second half, was wrong. We had a couple of quick runs of play, that resulted in goals. The rest of the time, we looked poor.

The refs in MLS are terrible, and I'm glad he isn't afraid of telling that like it is. But using them as a scapegoat for what was ultimately a failing of the TEAM, isn't right.

- Scott

[nascarguy]

Hell, I'd donate a toonie every game for the "Carver 'have a go at the refs' fund"... :)

If 500 of us did it - there'd be $1000 kicking around every match if needed... If not, we donate it to charity - everyone wins!

I'm sure the MLS would love a charity donation made in the name "in case our coach has to rip your shit refs!" movement :)

Carts...
I'll donation 2$ jc is right on the money about the ref's

[Keystone FC]

I have a different take on Carvers fine. If the MLS was more sure of it's officiating crew then the fine would be more (I'd say $1,000) and a 1 game ban from the bench. Since the fine is in the range of car payment I'd say the MLS FO, in a way, agrees with Carver but has to show some sort of stance so that it doesn't get out of hand.
The NBA hands out $2,000 + fines for coaches and players who make such comments about refs and so does the NFL but these guys make about 10x what people in the MLS do.

[CretanBull]

^ I think the MLS assigns fines that are in line with the over-all salary structure of the league (ie most NBA coaches are making around $1 million or more) but I think that you're absolutely right. This was a half-assed fine, especially to someone who's been vocal in the past and has been given a number of warnings. Bottom line is they know the officiating is weak, but accept it for what it is (the best that they can afford within the structure of the league). It doesn't help that the ref in question was called out in an LA newspaper earlier this week for his habbit of making bad calls.

[Mark in Ottawa]

I liked the idea last year of when Carver declined our generosity in paying his fine and the money was donated to the Canadian National Institute for the Blind - a backhanded way of further criticizing the referee.

Classic :smilielol5:

[ensco]

I wish the fine was bigger.

What'll it be tonight, if we lose?

I predict his next go, will be at the media for being so negative.

[olegunnar]

I wish the fine was bigger.

What'll it be tonight, if we lose?

I predict his next go, will be at the media for being so negative.

I agree.
I'm staying out of the Today's news thread so it doesn't become a shitstorm but I find this paying for his fine idea/plan to be repugnant.

Makes me glad I didn't re-up my membership.

Make no mistake about it, the quality of MLS refereeing is uniformly substandard. That said though, Carver's constant public ranting and raving about it (especially when he's wrong and just making excuses) is unprofessional and juvenile behaviour.

Sure raising money for the CNIB it's nice message for the RPBs to send...but at the same time it's wrong to raise money in support of Carver's behaviour.
What kind of message does that send?

[JonO]

I'm staying out of the Today's news thread so it doesn't become a shitstorm but I find this paying for his fine idea/plan to be repugnant.

The idea is not to pay for his fine. I wouldn't pay his fine in a million years. Rather, it is a symbolic gesture that we understand his frustration with the refereeing in this league. It's amusing and raises money for a good cause.

In fact, it appears only the MLS itself doesn't have a problem with the officiating.

Referees are human and can make mistakes - that is understood, but the repeated blown calls thoughout the game and, more importantly, the inconsistancy make this league frustrating to watch at the best of times.

[bhoybobby]

Is this or this not a thread to discuss Carver being fined/reprimanded for the umpteenth time?

2+2 = 4

What do you call someone makes the same mistakes repeatedly?


Why do we have to defend this man? He's a boer.

You can't make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Mo's the problem not Carver, he's forgot more about the game than you'll ever learn.

I warned everyone on this page about the perils of Mo, no track record as a football manager, he's just feathering his nest. Him & Assmanembly have gotta go.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I wish the fine was bigger.

What'll it be tonight, if we lose?

I predict his next go, will be at the media for being so negative.

Nope. Just you.

But really? Won't it be that we're missing a player we put a lot of faith in to improve our team? Could it be he could refer to the table and the oppositions run of good games?

I don't WANT to hear this. I WANT a win but I know you've been following this game long enough to know what we'll hear when most teams lose. It's not often we hear anything new (Thank you Kinnear(sp?) of Newcastle).

[Jack]

I agree.
I'm staying out of the Today's news thread so it doesn't become a shitstorm but I find this paying for his fine idea/plan to be repugnant.

Makes me glad I didn't re-up my membership.

Make no mistake about it, the quality of MLS refereeing is uniformly substandard. That said though, Carver's constant public ranting and raving about it (especially when he's wrong and just making excuses) is unprofessional and juvenile behaviour.

Sure raising money for the CNIB it's nice message for the RPBs to send...but at the same time it's wrong to raise money in support of Carver's behaviour.
What kind of message does that send?
What are you talking about? RPB as a group is not donating money for Carver's fine.

If individuals want to donate of their own accord, that is beyond our control.

[trane]

I like Carver, as a person, and hope he succeeds as a manager, but I wish he would scream more about his teams inability to hold a basic shape, and play sound football then at the refs. I wish he would be screaming at his team for allowing Dallas in the box, and for Wynne running around with his arms out like he was about to take off.

[Ageroo]

I like Carver, as a person, and hope he succeeds as a manager, but I wish he would scream more about his teams inability to hold a basic shape, and play sound football then at the refs. I wish he would be screaming at his team for allowing Dallas in the box, and for Wynne running around with his arms out like he was about to take off.

If he is like this with the media....who knows what is going on behind closed doors.....:noidea:

[trane]

^ If he is screaming about those things, then I am with him. They are clearly not getting it.

[olegunnar]

What are you talking about? RPB as a group is not donating money for Carver's fine.

If individuals want to donate of their own accord, that is beyond our control.

In the news thread there's this that's what I'm talking about.

"^ I'll match your $20.

Lets raise money and donate it to Canadian National Institute for the Blind on behalf of Carver and the RPB."

[Kevvv]

I have a different take on Carvers fine. If the MLS was more sure of it's officiating crew then the fine would be more (I'd say $1,000) and a 1 game ban from the bench. Since the fine is in the range of car payment I'd say the MLS FO, in a way, agrees with Carver but has to show some sort of stance so that it doesn't get out of hand.
The NBA hands out $2,000 + fines for coaches and players who make such comments about refs and so does the NFL but these guys make about 10x what people in the MLS do.


By that logic, the NBA fines are the equivalent of around $200 - or about one bottle of wine for these guys. $2K just isn't a big deal if you're taking in 7 figures.

But I agree with your initial point that whatever Carver is making, $750 is a slap on the wrist, and indicates that the league doesn't take his offence that seriously.

[Jack]

In the news thread there's this that's what I'm talking about.

"^ I'll match your $20.

Lets raise money and donate it to Canadian National Institute for the Blind on behalf of Carver and the RPB."
Yeah, I just saw that.

[CretanBull]

In the news thread there's this that's what I'm talking about.

"^ I'll match your $20.

Lets raise money and donate it to Canadian National Institute for the Blind on behalf of Carver and the RPB."


The idea is not to pay for his fine. I wouldn't pay his fine in a million years. Rather, it is a symbolic gesture that we understand his frustration with the refereeing in this league. It's amusing and raises money for a good cause.

In fact, it appears only the MLS itself doesn't have a problem with the officiating.

Referees are human and can make mistakes - that is understood, but the repeated blown calls thoughout the game and, more importantly, the inconsistancy make this league frustrating to watch at the best of times.

JonO's explaination best describes where we're coming from...

[Roogsy]

So a group of RPBs (and possibly non RPBs) decide to do this as a symbolic gesture. Good for them!

Some may agree, some don't...but olegunner, your depiction of it as an RPB initiative that justifies your not "reupping" is unfair. Last year, some of us helped pay for the plane banner in Columbus, others rejected the idea. That ability to choose what to support and what not to support is exactly why I like RPB and yet you make it sound like it's a bad thing.

[Boris]

well again, the issue woud be using the groups name
we have to make a CLEAR distinction between individual efforts and group efforts....

[Boris]

So a group of RPBs (and possibly non RPBs) decide to do this as a symbolic gesture. Good for them!

Some may agree, some don't...but olegunner, your depiction of it as an RPB initiative that justifies your not "reupping" is unfair. Last year, some of us helped pay for the plane banner in Columbus, others rejected the idea. That ability to choose what to support and what not to support is exactly why I like RPB and yet you make it sound like it's a bad thing.

refer to my post :D
columbus was a individual effort with help from others

[Roogsy]

I agree with your post. The point being, when a group of supporters chooses to do something, people have the choice to participate or not and it is unfair to classify everything every RPB member does as a group initiative rather than seeing it for what it is, individual initiatives.

You would think people would know that an official RPB initiative would come from the team leaders or the executive.

As for the idea itself...if CB does it, I personally would help out. I like it.

[Boris]

I agree with your post. The point being, when a group of supporters chooses to do something, people have the choice to participate or not and it is unfair to classify everything every RPB does as a group initiative rather than seeing it for what it is, individual initiatives.

yes...
case closed..
carry on

[Roogsy]

Why thank you! :p

[loyola]

MLS refs are OK, not bad, not good, just average (actually, just like the players they are reffing) but it's getting tiresome to hear some of you using them as an eternal excuse.

I'm sorry, the handball call was correct, unfortunate and unlucky, but still correct. Wynne knew it and his teamates knew it and no one really complained. Maybe some of you want to argue over the "intent" or the "impossiblity" for Wynne to get his arm out of the way but if that would've been a no-call against TFC you guys would've gone mental over it, and rightly so IMO.

Carver is using the refs to put the spotlights on someone else to avoid criticisms. Smart move and it won't cost him much. Now, if he could show some intelligence while coaching that team...it would be nice. But I guess he'll spend tonight game talking with the 4th official instead of coaching.

[Derko]

John Carver's just a blockhead. I mean what is he even talking about. Does he even realize we're the worst prepared team in the entire league? The more he talks, the worse he makes himself look.

... I think his nickname from his Leeds United days deserves resurrecting ... "Concrete Carver"

The point was that the referee made a bad call, and Carver reacted as he should. Not that TFC were not prepared,.

[JonO]

I'm sorry, the handball call was correct, unfortunate and unlucky, but still correct.
Actually, not to beat a dead horse, but stating that the call was "correct" as an absolute is... well.... incorrect. That call in particular is not terrible because it comes down to interpretation of the rule, which does state that the handball must be intentional. The question is how to determine what is intentional and the implementing rules state that if player's arms are in an unnatural position then it's a handball.

So now the question becomes what is unnatural. If you watch the replay (in regular speed - slo mo means nothing), it is clear that Wynne is running at speed in one direction when the Dallas player flicks the ball in the opposite direction. In my mind, there is simply no way that the handball could have been intentional. In fact, I would argue that the Dallas player was trying to make contact with Wynne's arm.

Like I said - it's a tough call to make in "real time" (and as you can tell by the disagreement on this board even with the benefit of a replay) but wasn't the worst of the refereeing

[MisterMacphisto]

That ability to choose what to support and what not to support is exactly why I like RPB and yet you make it sound like it's a bad thing.

I think its a really bad thing (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=476910#post476910)...

[Blazer]

Atta go Carver!

[loyola]

Actually, not to beat a dead horse, but stating that the call was "correct" as an absolute is... well.... incorrect. That call in particular is not terrible because it comes down to interpretation of the rule, which does state that the handball must be intentional. The question is how to determine what is intentional and the implementing rules state that if player's arms are in an unnatural position then it's a handball.

So now the question becomes what is unnatural. If you watch the replay (in regular speed - slo mo means nothing), it is clear that Wynne is running at speed in one direction when the Dallas player flicks the ball in the opposite direction. In my mind, there is simply no way that the handball could have been intentional. In fact, I would argue that the Dallas player was trying to make contact with Wynne's arm.

Like I said - it's a tough call to make in "real time" (and as you can tell by the disagreement on this board even with the benefit of a replay) but wasn't the worst of the refereeing

I wouldn't read too much in the debate going on here, particulary because TFC is involve in this play and it cost you, so some fans will be bias (I understand that).

I think a better place to read inform opinion about refs decision is BigSoccer forum for Referee. The Wynne PK call is discuss in this thread:

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1007004&page=2

I think the best analysis is the comment posted here:

Looks like a good PK call to me. Player's arms up in that way does not seem natural to me. Players are getting smarter. One way they have started trying to get a leg up on the opponent is by this sort of seemingly innocent or natural arm placement where the arm is in a place that might end up blocking a ball played by the opponent from going through. The memo and guidance we have received from USSF regarding a player making himself bigger is, overall, very good.

In my opinion, this DAL/TOR incident is a textbook example.

I can understand you don't like me using an "absolute is" but at the end of the day, if you ask the people in charge of Referees at USSF or CSA or FIFA you'll find out that PK was warranted. The interpretation made by Welland was the right one.

My frustration with the PK rule can be illustrated by this particular call, there's no goalscoring chance but the foul results in a goalscoring chance because of where it happened. It's frustrating and that's why you see so many dives in the box and maybe now we'll see players trying to hit arms like that....Anyways, the ref still did his job, he's there to make sure rules are enforced.

[ensco]

I think a better place to read inform opinion about refs decision is BigSoccer forum for Referee. The Wynne PK call is discuss in this thread:

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1007004&page=2



Nice find. Thanks for pointing that forum out. You're right, that poster summed it up just right.

[TFC FORZA RPB]

pffft $750 that's a drop in the bucket

[kitchener-TFC]

I'm with carver here...MLS refs are shit! Why don't they just fire the idiot who reffed on Sunday?

[Pachuco]

I wouldn't read too much in the debate going on here, particulary because TFC is involve in this play and it cost you, so some fans will be bias (I understand that).

I think a better place to read inform opinion about refs decision is BigSoccer forum for Referee. The Wynne PK call is discuss in this thread:

http://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1007004&page=2

I think the best analysis is the comment posted here:

Looks like a good PK call to me. Player's arms up in that way does not seem natural to me. Players are getting smarter. One way they have started trying to get a leg up on the opponent is by this sort of seemingly innocent or natural arm placement where the arm is in a place that might end up blocking a ball played by the opponent from going through. The memo and guidance we have received from USSF regarding a player making himself bigger is, overall, very good.

In my opinion, this DAL/TOR incident is a textbook example.

I can understand you don't like me using an "absolute is" but at the end of the day, if you ask the people in charge of Referees at USSF or CSA or FIFA you'll find out that PK was warranted. The interpretation made by Welland was the right one.

My frustration with the PK rule can be illustrated by this particular call, there's no goalscoring chance but the foul results in a goalscoring chance because of where it happened. It's frustrating and that's why you see so many dives in the box and maybe now we'll see players trying to hit arms like that....Anyways, the ref still did his job, he's there to make sure rules are enforced.

That's sums it up really well. Not sure what else people need to hear in order to be convinced that the call that was made was the right one. Now the missed penalty on Dichio last night, well, that ref should be fired. He was right in front of the play. I would've preferred Carver kept his mouth shut last game and instead reamed the ref out that we had against Chivas. He wouldn't look so bad right now.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

In all sports league you cant critisize any offical...its a no no...only in baseball can you bump and kick dirt on and through a leagal tantam, but not be critical in the media about them.....JC was right it was a bad call..but life goes on...what we need
os a JC t shirt chocking a Ref ie Homer and Bart....

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

I'm with carver here...MLS refs are shit! Why don't they just fire the idiot who reffed on Sunday?


we will see him again this season you can count on that..

[Blizzard]

I'm with carver here...MLS refs are shit! Why don't they just fire the idiot who reffed on Sunday?

If we fire all the idiots who ref in MLS ......................