MLS Rumors says Grass coming to T.O for 2010

[gtaguy]

I know its mls rumors but they guys haven't been too far off the mark on some of their reports..

http://www.mls-rumors.net/2009/04/report-grass-is-coming-to-bmo-unnamed.html


Toronto FC fans may have new reason to cheer in 2010 according to a source within Toronto FC:

I just thought you guys would like to know that I was just informed from within TFC that grass is coming to BMO Field next season. An agreement has been struck with the city with regards to use of the facilities and an alternative that Toronto FC will set up this fall/winter. A lacrosse team may help pay for the upkeep of it in return for getting to use BMO though the bulk of the money for the conversion itself will come from money received from Maurice Edu's transfer to Rangers.

Please realise that my name must be kept anonymous as Toronto FC has really cracked down on leaks.

Thanks and keep up the good work.

[Pachuco]

Ok guys, come on, man up, who sent it :)

[Jack]

MLS Rumors...lol.

Too much BS flies through that site for me to give too much credence to what they post anymore :)

[Detroit_TFC]

I read so much bullshit on that site, I think I need the eyewash station.

[ensco]

The team's founding, and this, would be the most important events in TFC history.

[mastermixer]

how does a site post random anonymous rumours from anyone that sends them an email and expect to be credible?

[Fort York Redcoat]

Wind. Up.

If not I'll start tying balloons for the party.

[Pigfynn]

if this is at all true, we will know for sure very soon

[BleedRed]

Ok guys, come on, man up, who sent it :)

LMAO!


The team's founding, and this, would be the most important events in TFC history.

I truly believe grass coming to BMO is going to be the most important thing to ever happen to this club. People don't understand how important it is when trying to lure world class players in. If this is true...fuckin...super duper!

[ensco]

I know that these guys are mostly a joke, but they did break the DeRo trade.

As it relates to TFC, somebody's bunny has a good nose over there.

[dantdot]

Yes, MLS Rumors is shit, but they've been right in the past. Please don't be bs!

[ExiledRed]

Unlikely story, seems improbable.


...probably true http://i176.photobucket.com/albums/w180/ExiledRed/ror1.gif

[Marc"2L"]

As soon as I herd the whole "temporary grass" thing I figured it was going to result in just leaving it.

I mean, how long could it take to build a replacement the city will be happy with?
They should convert an old factory or warehouse and call it the football factory.
Build TFC's training facility next to it and everything with the academy.

Football factory indeed.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

while grass would be great...it leave a few problems...like having a few more road games to start the season so the grass would be settled by the time the team plays
in TO......Start off in San Jose, La, Chivas, Colorado then Columbus before coming
back to BMO to a solid grass surface? Being we are no such a good road team this
would put us behind the eight ball to start the season...

[flatpicker]

^ if having a grass pitch means starting on the road each year, then I can accept that.

[ExiledRed]

while grass would be great...it leave a few problems...like having a few more road games to start the season so the grass would be settled by the time the team plays
in TO......Start off in San Jose, La, Chivas, Colorado then Columbus before coming
back to BMO to a solid grass surface? Being we are no such a good road team this
would put us behind the eight ball to start the season...

I'm sure you're all clued up on the technology involved. Even if you're correct, it has to be preferable than going season after season with our roster plagued by fatigue and injury, and signing whoever we can get because the better players avoid it.

wait a minute......oh yeah, it's you again.

Dont tell me, you actually think we shouldn't have grass, right?

[billyfly]

As soon as I herd the whole "temporary grass" thing I figured it was going to result in just leaving it.

I mean, how long could it take to build a replacement the city will be happy with?
They should convert an old factory or warehouse and call it the football factory.
Build TFC's training facility next to it and everything with the academy.

Football factory indeed.


The fields at Lakeshore Lions.

[Stugatzo]

As the mayor's "spokesperson" quoted in the Globe story recently, I think everyone should relax...many miles to go before there's a mow-able surface at BMO.
We all want it, it's being worked on and everything else is speculation and heresay.

[Nuvinho]

Will we get a CB before we get grass?

[Wagner]

as someone that grows sports turf for a living...
we'd have to be on the road until now at the earliest.
the grass is just starting to grow this week.
just be aware....we'll have played 5 games on the road before a home date...

[TFCREDNWHITE]

MLS Rumors...lol.

Too much BS flies through that site for me to give too much credence to what they post anymore :)

I'd believe it, Tyrone Marshall confirmed the same thing last year at the Jack Astors Pub Crawl i was at in Oakville, I spoke with him one on one and grilled him for 15 minutes, I even posted it the day after on the RPB board....

[Marc"2L"]

The fields at Lakeshore Lions.

I'm well aware. Consider that wishful thinking.

[Marc"2L"]

as someone that grows sports turf for a living...
we'd have to be on the road until now at the earliest.
the grass is just starting to grow this week.
just be aware....we'll have played 5 games on the road before a home date...

I'm pretty sure there are ways around this.

[TFCREDNWHITE]

As the mayor's "spokesperson" quoted in the Globe story recently, I think everyone should relax...many miles to go before there's a mow-able surface at BMO.
We all want it, it's being worked on and everything else is speculation and heresay.

So Stuart, If they are working on it now....Then they should have it ready to go in April of 2010!? I mean that is miles down the road(April 2010)..

How slow do these guys work!????

[gtaguy]

i know that some things mls rumors has posted is shite but these guys do seem to have alittle bit of credibility..
Im not saying that they are right in this one however based on a telephone chat i had with a TFC FO rep about a year ago, I was told that for grass to be placed into BMO we needed to complete 3 full years of having the field in its current state. (field turf) , and that after the three years the federal goverments contract (the money donated by them ) would have been fullfilled by mlse and the city..
I see what the dude was saying and now its up to the city of toronto and mlse to renegociate the contract to fullfill its obligation of building a community soccer ground which i suspect might just be in etobicoke next or damn close to the new praticise facility being build for the leafs..
In all accounts we have a few factors in our favor..
1. Being that as we all see bmo is missing out on alot of revenue becuase the stadium is too small .
2. We have Miller for mayor and as much as i might dislike this guys left wing ways he sees the potential aswell of expansion. Not only in a revenue way but to make the sport grow and continue to strengthen canadian soccer as a legitimate soccer nation.
3. If a grass pitch is not put in place toronto might just continue to be a mediocre city for soccer which im am quite certain the teachers union is not so in favor of this.(money talks)


Considering that this gives alot of youth the possibility of dreaming of becoming soccer players. Ties in with scholastic and physical education much like hockey has been forever in canadian schools.
4.This opens up doors for home grown soccer talent to stay in Canada instead of leaving to U.S universities and colleges where they would be welcomed with open arms.
5. This opens up and industry for refs, coaches, all personnel involved in the game to continue here in Canada instead of going abroad

just my two cents on the topic..

ps: If this is not done rest assured that Vancouver will indeed become the go to place for soccer in Canada..

[Wagner]

I'm pretty sure there are ways around this.

like what??
i know some nfl fields heat their turf....
but that's not likely the case up here.

if you play on frozen turf, you can hurt it.
if you play on turf before it properly establishes, you can hurt it...

[Phil]

Under pitch heating would need to be there IMO. That will make the price point jump pretty high though.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

I'm sure you're all clued up on the technology involved. Even if you're correct, it has to be preferable than going season after season with our roster plagued by fatigue and injury, and signing whoever we can get because the better players avoid it.

wait a minute......oh yeah, it's you again.

Dont tell me, you actually think we shouldn't have grass, right?


im all for grass....that said..i would not want an extended road start
to a season...where TFC have not exactly been road warriors in the
past.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

i know that some things mls rumors has posted is shite but these guys do seem to have alittle bit of credibility..
Im not saying that they are right in this one however based on a telephone chat i had with a TFC FO rep about a year ago, I was told that for grass to be placed into BMO we needed to complete 3 full years of having the field in its current state. (field turf) , and that after the three years the federal goverments contract (the money donated by them ) would have been fullfilled by mlse and the city..
I see what the dude was saying and now its up to the city of toronto and mlse to renegociate the contract to fullfill its obligation of building a community soccer ground which i suspect might just be in etobicoke next or damn close to the new praticise facility being build for the leafs..
In all accounts we have a few factors in our favor..
1. Being that as we all see bmo is missing out on alot of revenue becuase the stadium is too small .
2. We have Miller for mayor and as much as i might dislike this guys left wing ways he sees the potential aswell of expansion. Not only in a revenue way but to make the sport grow and continue to strengthen canadian soccer as a legitimate soccer nation.
3. If a grass pitch is not put in place toronto might just continue to be a mediocre city for soccer which im am quite certain the teachers union is not so in favor of this.(money talks)


Considering that this gives alot of youth the possibility of dreaming of becoming soccer players. Ties in with scholastic and physical education much like hockey has been forever in canadian schools.
4.This opens up doors for home grown soccer talent to stay in Canada instead of leaving to U.S universities and colleges where they would be welcomed with open arms.
5. This opens up and industry for refs, coaches, all personnel involved in the game to continue here in Canada instead of going abroad

just my two cents on the topic..

ps: If this is not done rest assured that Vancouver will indeed become the go to place for soccer in Canada..


BC Place had field turf....and Cant see Vancouver getting a SSS built,
why would the province and city do that when BC place is now
ok for MLS?

[Dirk Diggler]

im all for grass....that said..i would not want an extended road start
to a season...where TFC have not exactly been road warriors in the
past.

Who cares? That would be off set by longer home stretches.

[gtaguy]

BC Place had field turf....and Cant see Vancouver getting a SSS built,
why would the province and city do that when BC place is now
ok for MLS?

apart from the fact that vancouver has field turf they have been around in the soccer world much longer than toronto .. by bringing natural grass onto a pitch you are enticing alot of players from abroad to come to Toronto to play for us..
We have been through this already almost 3 years and running NO ONE WANTS TO COME TO PLAY IN TORONTO... This has to change.. set the precedence and the rest will follow... Vancouver is favorable becuase they are an established team with grass roots and an established academy..

[ilikemusic]

im all for grass....that said..i would not want an extended road start
to a season...where TFC have not exactly been road warriors in the
past.

They havent necessarily been 'home warriors' either.

[Roogsy]

We used to be. Ah...the good times of season 1.

[ExiledRed]

as someone that grows sports turf for a living...
we'd have to be on the road until now at the earliest.
the grass is just starting to grow this week.
just be aware....we'll have played 5 games on the road before a home date...

we played our first home game last season on the 19th April, after only three games.

Why is undersoil heating not an option, and how would a product like Desso Grassmaster hold up?

[Wagner]

the desso system isn't all that different from field turf.
it's fake grass blades in soil/sand/rubber crumbs...

my guess, is that real grass will come with expansion...as there will be significant costs involved, including a possible turf warming system...

[Wagner]

i'd prefer real grass.
with that said, there is a reason that the people in charge chose what they did.
the field turf at bmo isn't the old astroturf.

http://gregdooley.com/images/2005/fieldturf2.jpg

[Batman]

http://www.inditherm.co.uk/content/downloads/IND_SPT_UnderTurfHeat_US.pdf

[ExiledRed]

i'd prefer real grass.
with that said, there is a reason that the people in charge chose what they did.
the field turf at bmo isn't the old astroturf.

http://gregdooley.com/images/2005/fieldturf2.jpg

I'll bet it doesn't look like that now.

Regardless, the image says nothing of how it affects players, performance and integrity of the game.

[dantdot]

the desso system isn't all that different from field turf.
it's fake grass blades in soil/sand/rubber crumbs...

my guess, is that real grass will come with expansion...as there will be significant costs involved, including a possible turf warming system...

Besides desso grassmaster being natural grass interwove with fibers and it being used by some of the best clubs in the world, yeah I guess it's not that different ;). I also doubt it would be installed here anyways, too expensive to justify for a league like MLS.

[ExiledRed]

the desso system isn't all that different from field turf.
it's fake grass blades in soil/sand/rubber crumbs...

my guess, is that real grass will come with expansion...as there will be significant costs involved, including a possible turf warming system...

That's a false or misleading assessment of the Desso Grassmaster.

It's used at Anfield, White Hart Lane and Emirates, and other respected stadiums, is only 3% synthetic fibres and the rest is natural grass.

[Wagner]

the crumb rubber and silica sand prevent compaction.
and they replace and top it up just to alleviate that concern.
the old concern of "lack of give" that old astro turf had is long gone.
anyone that has that concern is ignorant to the fact that this turf is 30-40 years newer technology.
old astroturf was carpet glued onto concrete....this is individual grades of grass sticking up from sand (which most high profile sports fields are made of for drainage reasons)

[ensco]

as someone that grows sports turf for a living...
we'd have to be on the road until now at the earliest.
the grass is just starting to grow this week.
just be aware....we'll have played 5 games on the road before a home date...

I respect your expertise, but I don't understand this point. It may not be optimal, but cities with winter climates have playable grass pitches in March.

KC's climate isn't much different than ours. How do they grow their grass? KC opened against us on March 21. I was at that game and the grass looked great, and nobody talked about it, so I assume it played fine.

Same point, even more so, for Colorado - Denver has a tougher winter climate than we do, and the Rapids opened March 28. Watch the highlights at mlsnet.com - the grass looks OK (although I'm guessing it played like concrete). There's quite a bit of snow visible beyond the tough lines.
http://web.mlsnet.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w=http%3A//mfile.akamai.com/11504/wmv/mlbmls.download.akamai.com/11504/2009/open//mls/2009/03/28/mls_srcfan_3993227_400K.wmv&type=v_free&gid=2009/03/28/kcwmls-cormls-1&_mp=1

I'm guessing you know more about this than I do, but every team in the Bundesliga has a heated pitch. They play in bitter conditions, in December and February.

[Batman]

http://www.athleticturf.net/athleticturf/Athletic+Turf+News/Turf-conditioning-heats-up-on-NFL-fields/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/374565

``Stadiums in Baltimore, Chicago, Denver, Green Bay, Pittsburgh and Washington, among others now feature turf-conditioning systems.``

Chicago, Green Bay and Pittsburgh would have pretty similar climates, but the issue the nfl is trying to address is different than we`d need, due to the different time of year the heating would be required.

NFL plays throughout the fall and early winter..therefore they need to avoid snow buildup and keep the ground from freezing.

TFC on the other hand would need heating in the late winter early spring, less to prevent snow build up , but more to promote early growth of the turf and again to prevent it from freezing.

I don`t know anything about this stuff, but I wonder if it could promote early growth of the turf. Wagner...can you shed some light

[Wagner]

That's a false or misleading assessment of the Desso Grassmaster.

It's used at Anfield, White Hart Lane and Emirates, and other respected stadiums, is only 3% synthetic fibres and the rest is natural grass.

but it's still synthetic fibres coming out of virtually the same sand.

[Wagner]

I respect your expertise, but I don't understand this point. It may not be optimal, but cities with winter climates have playable grass pitches in March.

KC's climate isn't much different than ours. How do they grow their grass? KC opened against us on March 21. I was at that game and the grass looked great, and nobody talked about it, so I assume it played fine.

Same point, even more so, for Colorado - Denver has a tougher winter climate than we do, and the Rapids opened March 28. Watch the highlights at mlsnet.com - the grass looks OK (although I'm guessing it played like concrete). There's quite a bit of snow visible beyond the tough lines.
http://web.mlsnet.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w=http%3A//mfile.akamai.com/11504/wmv/mlbmls.download.akamai.com/11504/2009/open//mls/2009/03/28/mls_srcfan_3993227_400K.wmv&type=v_free&gid=2009/03/28/kcwmls-cormls-1&_mp=1

I'm guessing you know more about this than I do, but every team in the Bundesliga has a heated pitch. They play in bitter conditions, in December and February.

KC is considerably more south.
look at the temperature they had for that opening game...march 21 - +20 degrees.
there are lots of things that need to be taken into account....soil comp, weather patterns, temperature...etc... check out how south KC is...

http://img356.imageshack.us/img356/3317/usaclimatezonesmapdk2.jpg

[Wagner]

KC is just above oklahoma...just above texas...
notice the stripes that represent climate/growing zones...
different species of grass grow in the different zones.
http://www.organicaseed.com/Pictures/color_map.gif

[LucaGol]

as someone that grows sports turf for a living...
we'd have to be on the road until now at the earliest.
the grass is just starting to grow this week.
just be aware....we'll have played 5 games on the road before a home date...

No offense, but you can play on grass in cold weather.

Secondly, we already start every single year (for the past three years) on the road because the bubble is up over the field.

And lastly, if you have sun and water ... your grass is growing ... it may not be growing by a noticeable amount and might get suffocated and browned out by snow blocking it from getting light ... but the process is always occurring. Your lawn doesn't completely die every winter.

[Batman]

Chicago, Green Bay and Pittsburgh would be pretty similar.

[JonO]

I respect your expertise, but I don't understand this point. It may not be optimal, but cities with winter climates have playable grass pitches in March.

KC's climate isn't much different than ours. How do they grow their grass? KC opened against us on March 21. I was at that game and the grass looked great, and nobody talked about it, so I assume it played fine.

Same point, even more so, for Colorado - Denver has a tougher winter climate than we do, and the Rapids opened March 28. Watch the highlights at mlsnet.com - the grass looks OK (although I'm guessing it played like concrete). There's quite a bit of snow visible beyond the tough lines.
http://web.mlsnet.com/media/player/mp_tpl.jsp?w=http%3A//mfile.akamai.com/11504/wmv/mlbmls.download.akamai.com/11504/2009/open//mls/2009/03/28/mls_srcfan_3993227_400K.wmv&type=v_free&gid=2009/03/28/kcwmls-cormls-1&_mp=1

I'm guessing you know more about this than I do, but every team in the Bundesliga has a heated pitch. They play in bitter conditions, in December and February.
Although I'll agree that there are cities with similar climates, our would be the harshest. Certainly harsher than Denver (which has milder temps, but more snow). We're not much worse than Columbus and their pitch looked pretty good...

Actually, after reading the Batman's post - Chicago is probably the closest to us...

[Batman]

Certainly, Chicago and Green Bay are every bit as harsh at Toronto, but as I mentioned in my earlier post our needs are different than a fall and winter NFL schedule.

[Wagner]

Columbus is in the ohio valley, check the annual temps in like kentucky compared to the GTA.the ohio valley gets different weather...look at how columbus is closer to a different climate/growing zone in the maps above...to the other point...yes you can play on grass...but you risk destroying it.for me to rip up and install a class B soccer field, that's rolling up the old sod...strip the soil, putting new soil down, regrading, new sod and/or hydro-seeding...can run $25,000 to $40,000, that's a class B, not a FIFA level pitch, and i didn't even get into irrigation, etc....

[boban]

Who cares? That would be off set by longer home stretches.
Fucken eh.

Is there really that much of a difference between Columbus and Toronto in climate?

[nfitz]

Oslo is the closest to us. What do they do in Norway?

[LucaGol]

Columbus is in the ohio valley, check the annual temps in like kentucky compared to the GTA.the ohio valley gets different weather...look at how columbus is closer to a different climate/growing zone in the maps above...to the other point...yes you can play on grass...but you risk destroying it.for me to rip up and install a class B soccer field, that's rolling up the old sod...strip the soil, putting new soil down, regrading, new sod and/or hydro-seeding...can run $25,000 to $40,000, that's a class B, not a FIFA level pitch, and i didn't even get into irrigation, etc....

Obviously in any argument there will be an opposing stance, which is yours.

But your just providing passable obstacles.

Many places that have colder temperatures and worse climates in the World lay grass pitches.

You cannot have a true game of soccer on FieldTurf. Its mainly my objective opinion (which is shared by many) ... the bounces, the passing and shooting are much too different. It's kind of an oxymoron, the differences are subtle yet substantial.

[Batman]

Olso is more temperate than Toronto.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Certainly, Chicago and Green Bay are every bit as harsh at Toronto, but as I mentioned in my earlier post our needs are different than a fall and winter NFL schedule.


they play at home every other week on average...with the wacko mls schedule we could play 3-4 home games in as little as 2 weeks. But bring on the grass....if the rumours are true..

[nfitz]

Olso is more temperate than Toronto.Is it - the average monthly winter highs and lows for Oslo - though the extreme lows were higher - tempered by the Ocean I expect. I also read they are looking at replacing the pitch at the main stadium in Oslo with artificial turf.

[Batman]

Is it - the average monthly winter highs and lows for Oslo - though the extreme lows were higher - tempered by the Ocean I expect. I also read they are looking at replacing the pitch at the main stadium in Oslo with artificial turf.

I used to work with guys from Oslo that hated to come to our office Ottawa in the winter because it was too friggin cold! Come to think of it, I thought it was to friggin cold in Ottawa too.

[Wagner]

any obstacle is passable with the right funds...
i'm just pointing out things that most people that just whine"we want real grass" clearly aren't thinking about.
they don't really realize that there is a difference between having some grass in your backyard vs. managing a world class level sports field.
it's not as simple as you think.

everything in life is a balance.
if/when we finally get real grass, remember that we won't host a home game until mother's day, and who do you think will pay for the field heating stuff? when we have a water shortage and irrigation costs skyrocket, who do you think will be paying for the difference?
of course, we'll maybe attract some new players...but we won't just be paying that new salary, we'll be paying for the grass to attract that player....

it's easy for people to hypothetically spend funds...but don't think the people that designed the bmo didn't do the best they could with the parameters they were given (ie, public field use)...

look at the cost just to bring in the temporary turf for the friendly : $500,000

[Canary Canuck]

when we finally get real grass, remember that we won't host a home game until mother's day,

Are you Cathal Kelly in disguise?? Seriously stop bullshitting. Colorado has already hosted a Mexico friendly March 11th in freezing conditions and the Rapids home opener after a snow storm. They have undersoil heating and take care of that thing. I hardly think MLSE are going to go at this thing half assed.

[billyfly]

I'm well aware. Consider that wishful thinking.


Pantolone keeps insisting that the fields are "downtown". He's one of the hold ups.

Stu - tell Joe to worry about his sister more than the location of the fields.:)

[MUFC_Niagara]

Obviously in any argument there will be an opposing stance, which is yours.

But your just providing passable obstacles.

Many places that have colder temperatures and worse climates in the World lay grass pitches.

You cannot have a true game of soccer on FieldTurf. Its mainly my objective opinion (which is shared by many) ... the bounces, the passing and shooting are much too different. It's kind of an oxymoron, the differences are subtle yet substantial.

You know that wagner is a groundsman by trade, ya?

[GabrielHurl]

I'm well aware. Consider that wishful thinking.

I've seen the plans for that facility with me own eyes

[billyfly]

I've seen the plans for that facility with me own eyes

MLSE wanna trade the Lakeshore Lions area for BMO grass. FACT. Who knows if it will happen and if the City will except.

[GabrielHurl]

Lakeshore Lions Arena is staying where it is - there's 3 pitches (2 with FieldTurf) going on the site (as well as the large 4-pad hockey arena that is under construction at the minute)

[nfitz]

Many places that have colder temperatures and worse climates in the World lay grass pitches.Where are these mythical places? Montreal I suppose - but they don't start play until ... well Mother's Day - so we have yet to see how it is to play on in late March/early April.

[billyfly]

Lakeshore Lions Arena is staying where it is - there's 3 pitches (2 with FieldTurf) going on the site (as well as the large 4-pad hockey arena that is under construction at the minute)

Yup. Even drove by there last weekend to see it myself.

[Shakes McQueen]

I'll believe it when I see it.

- Scott

[Jeffro]

Where are these mythical places? Montreal I suppose - but they don't start play until ... well Mother's Day - so we have yet to see how it is to play on in late March/early April.

How about Russia? Ever see a champions league match in Russia in December?

[Jeffro]

From what I've been hearing, grass for next season is entirely possible

[Ossington Mental Youth]

so awesome, hope its true, thanks for the insight Jeffro

[Cashcleaner]

My guess is that we'll get grass the same year Des Moines lands it's MLS franchise. :D

Seriously, it would be great news, but I don't see it in the foreseeable future.

[MFG1]

Will we get a CB before we get grass?

how about a win before a CB before grass you know june /july is coming up fast!:)

[Gazza_55]

BC Place had field turf....and Cant see Vancouver getting a SSS built,
why would the province and city do that when BC place is now
ok for MLS?

Because the city and province are not paying one dime for the Whitecaps Soccer Specific Stadium. Greg Kerfoot and the other owners are.

[LucaGol]

You know that wagner is a groundsman by trade, ya?

You don't have to be a groundsman to know what photosynthesis is.

I'm deferring to his expertise in the matter, but for now all he's doing is providing barriers that can be circumvented (i.e. money, weather, infrastructure, "playability" of the field) These items are not deal breakers, they're tools for people who do not want grass here, to use and trumpet their cause (whatever that may be).

[Fushida]

how about a win before a CB before grass you know june /july is coming up fast!:)

was that really necessary in this thread? really? do we need this kinda negativity in every thread?

i'm praying there'll be grass here ASAP but wagner's points are obviously well stated since he does it for a living. its not like he's against grass at BMO so i don't see the antagonistic stance taken against him by some... he's just laying out what developers, city planners, and MLSE are likely taking into account when they make this decision as lucagol said.... and the money is a real concern especially in our climate.

[rocker]

Wagner, what would be the timeframe for proper grass installation?
what's the latest in a year this can be done before winter?
can it be done in March/April or is that too soon for root structure to settle?

[ensco]

Wagner, KC was in the middle of a heat wave when we were there. Your other comments about temperature and precipitation are mostly not confirmed by the data (you're right, Denver is a little warmer, but they get less precip than Toronto).

Chicago is considerably colder than any other city in MLS, including Toronto - they opened April 5, not Mother's Day!

Here's the data. Toronto is not materially different from Kansas City, Chicago or Denver. Here's the sample for March....

_____________Tor KC Chi Den
Avg Temp (F)__32__34_26_39
Avg Precip(in)_2.3__1.3_1.4_1.3

http://www.weatherbase.com/weather/weather.php3?s=42617&refer=
http://www.weatherbase.com/weather/weather.php3?s=64427&refer=
http://www.weatherbase.com/weather/weather.php3?s=3527&refer=
http://www.weatherbase.com/weather/weather.php3?s=96427&refer=

[Toronto Ruffrider]

I wouldn't mind starting the season with a block of road games. The Lynx used to start their seasons away from home. I remember one season when the Lynx played their first six games away from Etobicoke Centennial Stadium!

While a Toronto Lynx-like schedule would not be ideal, I would concede it as a price to pay for a natural grass surface. Being able to draw high-profile players and teams, as well as national team games, outweighs the necessity to play a bunch of March and April games at a frosty BMO.

[greatwhitenorf]

Don't think water shortages will be a problem, Wagner, in maintaining the grass. Training in future will include the team and reserves running buckets of water up from the lake.

I think soccer has not only reached, but passed, the tipping point where it will become a successful professional sport in North America. It's not hard to envision MLS having three or four Canadian franchises in the not-too-distant future.

When the city and MLSE get around to expanding BMO Field, I think we'll see the east stands mirror what's now up on the west side. A double decked south end. A total capacity somewhere north of 30,000 and with a grass pitch, the ability to attract quality import players to TFC. And host a long and lucrative playing season, which will more than justify the cost of under-soil heating.

TFC have been granted a head start on professional soccer development in Canada - including the presence of a strong and demanding fan base - and they have to take every necessary step to maintain it. That means getting in grass as soon as possible.

[torfchamilton]

What do they do in Germany. I know they have a winter break, but it is cold there during the winter months. I think they are off from the middle of Dec to the end of January. There is some heating involved obviously, but the fields look great. Here is a look at their average temps and a comparison to Toronto
http://www.gate1travel.com/central-europe-travel/weather/Germany-weather.htm
http://www.livingin-canada.com/climate-toronto.html

With money anything can be done. We need a world class facility. Red Cow Satdium is going to be nice!!

[Hitcho]

Who cares? That would be off set by longer home stretches.

in warmer weather! :hump:

[nfitz]

Here is a look at their average temps and a comparison to Toronto Which seems to demonstrate that Toronto is a lot colder than any city in Germany. You need to go further east than that.

[Dirk Diggler]

Forget Germany ... from what someone posted in this thread, it seems as if Chicago is colder and receives less precipitation compared to Toronto.

[Dale_Rojo]

Where are these mythical places? Montreal I suppose - but they don't start play until ... well Mother's Day - so we have yet to see how it is to play on in late March/early April.

Russia?? yeah they play in like -10 noone else watched the CL??

[LucaGol]

Which seems to demonstrate that Toronto is a lot colder than any city in Germany. You need to go further east than that.

Really ... Toronto in April is colder than any city in Germany? :noidea:

I don't even have to look at the data to know that's wrong.

[nfitz]

Really ... Toronto in April is colder than any city in Germany? :noidea:

I don't even have to look at the data to know that's wrong.April isn't the issue - April is similiar. The issue is Feburary and March. Remember we need a suitable playing surface on/about April 1st. The average daily maximum listed for Toronto in Feb was 32°F. For the German cities in ranges from 38°F to 40°F. That's the difference between frozen/dead grass and alive, green grass.

[greatwhitenorf]

Someone in Europe knows how to get it done. Shakhtar Donetsk in Ukraine have been playing CL and Uefa Cup games all through the winter. Played a Moscow team not long ago as well.

[rocker]

whether it's technically possible is, to me, irrelevant.

I froze my ass off at the first two games in April and would prefer not to have to deal with that for additional games each season.... it's just not as enjoyable a product on the field, and not as enjoyable to inhabit a stadium at that time.

And MLS fans have shown they come out when it's warmer, so it's not just a grass biology issues, it's a financial issue.

[nfitz]

I was going to point out that Donetsk is not far from the Black Sea, and wouldn't be as harsh - but looking at weather data, it is very similiar to Toronto - though a bit less snow! It is a grass pitch, and they are currently building a new stadium. So how do they and other Ukraine and Russians do it?


I froze my ass off at the first two games in April and would prefer not to have to deal with that for additional games each season....I don't think we're talking additional games. Just if and how you can have a grass pitch ready for play by about April 1st in this climate - compared to Montreal where they don't start playing until Mother's Day.

[Shway]

Montreals pitch is still horrible by mothers day, thats the joke

[Shway]

I rather have turf then BMO to end up like Saputo Golf Course

[LucaGol]

April isn't the issue - April is similiar. The issue is Feburary and March. Remember we need a suitable playing surface on/about April 1st. The average daily maximum listed for Toronto in Feb was 32°F. For the German cities in ranges from 38°F to 40°F. That's the difference between frozen/dead grass and alive, green grass.

You don't need two months to make a pitch ready for game action. Even if you're re-sodding every year, which I'm assuming they are.

Three weeks in March tops, if you make use of available technology.

The field might not be in excellent condition, but I'm sure it would at least meet FIFA's minimums. By late april, we'll have a world class grass pitch that will last us the summer.

[scots17]

Friday, April 24, 2009
http://www.sportsnet.ca/soccer/2007/11/20/adriano_getty_400.jpg

http://m1.2mdn.net/1946273/300x250_connected_ontario.jpg
THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

MILAN -- Inter Milan released Adriano on Friday after the Brazil striker deserted the club earlier this month.

www.sportsnet.ca (http://www.sportsnet.ca)

[LucaGol]

^ DP ... Designated Party Animal?