When Will Your Threshold Break?

[TFC USA]

This is not meant to be a personal attack on anyone, but it's generally directed to users here who think that getting the torches lit for an angry mob after "2.2 years" is too quick.

When will your threshold break? If TFC continues to play like this, mediocre football, not bad enough to be the Crew but not good enough for a playoff spot, when will your patience run out?

EDIT: By patience I mean you're saying screw it and calling for the heads of Carver, Mo, the players, etc.

Please give me your reasoning on this. :)

[trane]

Quite honestly, for me is game to game now. Why? there simply are very few, if any signs of real improved play. Therefore there is very little reason to think that they will improve any time soon. Therefore even tommorow if we look like we did Saturday, I may just say enought. Why waite any longer for some kidn of miraculous turnaround when there is not reason to believe that one will come.

[DOMIN8R]

2010-11

Our team has gone through nearly 2 complete wholesale player changes in under 2 years. It's unreasonable to think that a franchise with less than 3 years history will beat most MLS teams.

I don't know about the coaching - it is true that there have been some questionable decisions as of late. But I'm willing to give the club a lot more leeway.

[sully]

the threshold isn't static...it gets broken more often than not, until hope is restored ahead of the next game. I think some people could lower their threshold a bit, in this league the football will always be mediocre at best, that is as long as the salary cap remains as low as it is.

[Lucky Strike]

Funny, I was just thinking about this.

I have to think that if by August (let's say the 3rd because it will be my birthday) we're not in a playoff position nor on the way to one (as in TFC has won 3-4 straight), a change of coach will be required. Something that will us a shot in the arm, make a run during the final stretch and make it into the playoffs.

I've come to the conclusion that the team has the mentality of "well, I'll get the ball up the field any way I can and it's up to others to go get it and if they don't it's their fault - I did my part" (my definition for the long ball which also covers/explains a bit more of our bad play) rather than trying to make accurate passes for your team mate to make it easier on him so he in turn can make a better play.

Carver has 105 days, and counting...

[Toronto Gunner]

TFC are my home team and I will continue to support them no matter how they do. The problem with Toronto sports fans is that we love to hate our sports teams. The dallas game (at home) was an exciting game, yes we should have won it, but it was still an exciting game and our team showed a lot of promise and played some good football. The next day, all I hear in the papers and on these boards is how sh*t we are and how we need to fire half of the team and coaching staff. It's pathetic.

If you don't love TFC, don't go to the games, don't visit these boards, and don't tell me about it because I don't want to hear it. It's okay to throw out the occasional "Man Barrett sucks", or "Dichio is too damn slow"; we're passionate about our club and sometimes you get disappointed with a particular player. To put down your team and ask a question like "when will you stop supporting them" is bandwagon talk and a clear sign that you're not a real supporter.

I don't mean this as a personal attack and I acknowledge that this thread was started as a discussion piece and not one person's opinion, but this is something I'm hearing a lot of lately and I think it's time that those who don't love their team sell off the remainder of their season seats and hop on the next hot bandwagon. I hear that you can get lacrosse tickets fairly cheap.

PS - we didn't start the flame war, peeps were hating on it before I left my comment: http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1907543

[TFC USA]

I didn't mean that, hence the edit. I meant when will you start to call for changes in management. Not those idiots who say "PROTEST AT BEE-MO!".

[trane]

^ Nobody, is saying when will you stop supporting them, the question is when will you call for change. The two are not the same. I will never stop supporting them. I will call for change if we still look like shit tommorow night. Why give them more time, what do you think will magicaly happen for us to improve, if by now we still cannot win. We come up with a solid performance, then ok they have a chance to show me that they can compete.

[BleedRed]

Quite honestly, for me is game to game now. Why? there simply are very few, if any signs of real improved play. Therefore there is very little reason to think that they will improve any time soon. Therefore even tommorow if we look like we did Saturday, I may just say enought. Why waite any longer for some kidn of miraculous turnaround when there is not reason to believe that one will come.

I agree completely...it's not so much the results that anger me and make me go into a deep depressive state every week...but its the quality of play and performance by our team. If we were totally outplaying teams and finding ways to lose that wouldn't be so bad as it would be a matter of time before things turned around. But this team we've been watching is terrible. I've watched more entertaining games in Division 5 Soccer Center on Martin Grove.

[Lucky Strike]

I didn't mean that, hence the edit. I meant when will you start to call for changes in management. Not those idiots who say "PROTEST AT BEE-MO!".

That's how I took it. "When will you cease supporting the coaching staff", not "when will you stop supporting the team".

[Fushida]

TFC are my home team and I will continue to support them no matter how they do. The problem with Toronto sports fans is that we love to hate our sports teams. The dallas game (at home) was an exciting game, yes we should have won it, but it was still an exciting game and our team showed a lot of promise and played some good football. The next day, all I hear in the papers and on these boards is how sh*t we are and how we need to fire half of the team and coaching staff. It's pathetic.

If you don't love TFC, don't go to the games, don't visit these boards, and don't tell me about it because I don't want to hear it. It's okay to throw out the occasional "Man Barrett sucks", or "Dichio is too damn slow"; we're passionate about our club and sometimes you get disappointed with a particular player. To put down your team and ask a question like "when will you stop supporting them" is bandwagon talk and a clear sign that you're not a real supporter.

+1 :drinking:

[menefreghista]

I stopped supporting Carver after those 2 months last summer were we where absolutely terrible.

This season, I think Carver has to get us into the Concacaf Champions League. If not, he will be gone at the end of the Voyageurs Cup. If he does pull that off, he will than have until the end of the season to get us to the playoffs.

[trane]

+1 :drinking:

So there is more then one MLSE employee on this board? Is that grape kool aid you are drinking in your post?

[Lucky Strike]

I stopped supporting Carver after those 2 months last summer were we where absolutely terrible.

This season, I think Carver has to get us into the Concacaf Champions League. If not, he will be gone at the end of the Voyageurs Cup. If he does pull that off, he will than have until the end of the season to get us to the playoffs.

Oooh, that's good, I like that. I'll add that to my previous opinion.

[trane]

^ How do you expect a disorganized , poor defending team like we are now, to defeat a well organized team like the Impact? Sure we have way more tallent then them , but we look more disorganized now, then we did when we met them last season. If Carver does not get the boys playing like a team soon, he should be fired to give someone else an opportunity for us to get organized so that we can qualify for the Concacaf Champions League.

[Toronto Gunner]

I downed a whole bucket of the kool-aid on April 28th, 2007 and I'm telling you, it's the best thing for washing down these blue pills.

In light of the edit (be fair - the question I answered changed after I posted my reply!), I would say that earning a play-off position and CONCACAF Champions League spot should be the requirements for keeping Carver. I love the guy, but we have one heck of a talented team and a coach at his level should be able to get us those two things at the very least.

[DOMIN8R]

PS - we didn't start the flame war, peeps were hating on it before I left my comment: http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1907543

Now that was fucking funny.

[sully]

To put down your team and ask a question like "when will you stop supporting them" is bandwagon talk and a clear sign that you're not a real supporter.



Despite that, I fear it will be to our long-term benefit if some people turn their backs on the team..this team needs a shot in the arm and the only means at our disposal is by getting a DP...and not have to listen to the crap that Mo talks about getting a DP "at the right time." The right time is always...those excuses don't mean anything to me anymore..

[Fushida]

So there is more then one MLSE employee on this board? Is that grape kool aid you are drinking in your post?

dude what's your problem? I can't express an opinion without being called an MLSE employee?

i've posted in the dallas thread that i felt the team played well and doesn't deserve as much flak as they did after the few games before that against columbus, seattle, and the first dallas game. i just think some posters think they know more than they do about soccer... they just look at the end result and decide to complain about everything whenever we lose without any actual insight on the game. lately on this board there's been overhyped expectations just because we signed dero. frankly i'm not a great fan of carver and his tactics either but sometimes you just have to give the man some leeway. he's had to work with changing rosters too, its easy to sit here and say what you'd do behind a computer screen, but there's a reason why you're not a coach while he is. i've supported losing teams everywhere buddy, i've been to elland road games at leeds, stood by england and china for 15 years. now i'm in canada and i go to as many canada NT games as i can... and now i got TFC. you think i'm phased by a few losses?

[sully]

^ How do you expect a disorganized , poor defending team like we are now, to defeat a well organized team like the Impact? Sure we have way more tallent then them , but we look more disorganized now, then we did when we met them last season. If Carver does not get the boys playing like a team soon, he should be fired to give someone else an opportunity for us to get organized so that we can qualify for the Concacaf Champions League.

agreed.

[Mikey]

IF we fail to beat the USL teams again this year, I will have real difficulty taking TFC seriously, and another big hike in season ticket prices at the end of the year will start to look like "idiot tax"

[Oldtimer]

I would say that earning a play-off position and CONCACAF Champions League spot should be the requirements for keeping Carver. I love the guy, but we have one heck of a talented team and a coach at his level should be able to get us those two things at the very least.

+1

End of this season is the proper time to do a full evaluation.

[S_D]

Mo has got more leeway than Carver for me.

Mo has made some good aquisitions, a few bad ones and done well at the draft. His epic screw up of selling off Marshall before having a name signed on a contract must not be repeated. He has to do something to improve the wide mids and CB before I will be happier. Our wide mids problem (Ricketts not playing) may be Carver or the individual player's fault or both. Either way it must get sorted out. We cannot have that salary sitting on the bench in this salary cap environment.

As for Carver, I want to see some improvement in the next few games. Not necessarily wins (although of course that is what we all want). If they can't string more than a couple of passes together and just continually boot it upfield, I want Carver gone as soon as a replacement can be found.

I am sick of this kiddie team play. And if he is to be replaced, none of this Richard Peddie crap of hiring someone with little to no experience, and screwing the team. I want an experienced coach who can get most out of what he has to work with. If an inexperienced coach is hired, I will begin calling for Mo's head.

[trane]

dude what's your problem? I can't express an opinion without being called an MLSE employee?

i've posted in the dallas thread that i felt the team played well and doesn't deserve as much flak as they did after the few games before that against columbus, seattle, and the first dallas game. i just think some posters think they know more than they do about soccer... they just look at the end result and decide to complain about everything whenever we lose without any actual insight on the game. lately on this board there's been overhyped expectations just because we signed dero. frankly i'm not a great fan of carver and his tactics either but sometimes you just have to give the man some leeway. he's had to work with changing rosters too, its easy to sit here and say what you'd do behind a computer screen, but there's a reason why you're not a coach while he is. i've supported losing teams everywhere buddy, i've been to elland road games at leeds, stood by england and china for 15 years. now i'm in canada and i go to as many canada NT games as i can... and now i got TFC. you think i'm phased by a few losses?

AS others have said it has nothing to do with results, it has to do with the leve of play of the team, we have been a terrible team for the most part since the early part of last year. How much more do we need to see. I like Carver as a man, I like what Carver says his vision for the team is, but he has had enough time to deliver. If he does not deliver soon, not in terms of results but of play, then it will become obvious to me that a change has to be made.

[Jack]

dude what's your problem? I can't express an opinion without being called an MLSE employee?



This.

I will remind people to respect the rules about personal attacks and insults.

Attack the argument, not the person.

No more of this crap, please.

[Lucky Strike]

^ How do you expect a disorganized , poor defending team like we are now, to defeat a well organized team like the Impact? Sure we have way more tallent then them , but we look more disorganized now, then we did when we met them last season. If Carver does not get the boys playing like a team soon, he should be fired to give someone else an opportunity for us to get organized so that we can qualify for the Concacaf Champions League.

I don't, actually (well, not with ease like it should be). That's why Carver has to get the team to step up so we can answer your question in the affirmative.

[Lucky Strike]

As others have said it has nothing to do with results, it has to do with the level of play of the team, we have been a terrible team for the most part since the early part of last year. How much more do we need to see. I like Carver as a man, I like what Carver says his vision for the team is, but he has had enough time to deliver. If he does not deliver soon, not in terms of results but of play, then it will become obvious to me that a change has to be made.

That's what I see as well. If we looked good but just weren't getting the results, I'd be disappointed, sure, but you know it would turn around sooner or later.

[FluSH]

We only sing when we are winning
We only sing when we are winning
sing when we are wiiiiiiining!
we only sing when we are winning!

The team will feel our wrath on these boards... but come gameday... I am part of those who consider themselves the 12th man... We have a job to do... and that is to support our team and make BMO Field the most intense stadium to play at... You don't like it... go boo at a Raptors game... this thing ain't for you.

[Sonny Cheeba]

i think people came closer to the breaking point in the last few games because we lost to an expansion team. our excuse over the last two years was: "it's a young club" and that went out the door and can never come back.

in the last home game last season, the "we deserve better" banner was brought out by U-Sector (i think ??) so it's not really surprising that people have these same feelings when we've had a whole bunch of player changes, but nothing really significant on the field other than beating KC and not losing to Columbus on the road.

[Fushida]

AS others have said it has nothing to do with results, it has to do with the leve of play of the team, we have been a terrible team for the most part since the early part of last year. How much more do we need to see. I like Carver as a man, I like what Carver says his vision for the team is, but he has had enough time to deliver. If he does not deliver soon, not in terms of results but of play, then it will become obvious to me that a change has to be made.

This I agree with. Here's some Kool-aid :drinking: :D

I was more or less speaking against those who just come on after a loss complaining about firing Carver, how Barrett/Ibbe blow, etc etc with little or no insight about the actual game.

[rocker]

We only sing when we are winning
We only sing when we are winning
sing when we are wiiiiiiining!
we only sing when we are winning!

The team will feel our wrath on these boards... but come gameday... I am part of those who consider themselves the 12th man... We have a job to do... and that is to support our team and make BMO Field the most intense stadium to play at... You don't like it... go boo at a Raptors game... this thing ain't for you.

I like this attitude. If you come to the game, you support the team. But I have a feeling all this criticism on the boards will cause people to attend with a cloud over their heads, looking for faults before the match has even begun. I think people need to leave that negative attitude at home when they come to the ground, or sell their tickets to others.

I noticed a guy last home game who stood up and heckled Barrett within the first 10 minutes of the game. I thought that was bullshit.

When I go to the match, the outside drama disappears and I'm there to watch TFC win.
My anger goes towards our enemies, the opposition. I never want to help the opposition by booing my own team or heckling my own players.

[FluSH]

i think people came closer to the breaking point in the last few games because we lost to an expansion team. our excuse over the last two years was: "it's a young club" and that went out the door and can never come back.

in the last home game the "we deserve better" banner was brought out by U-Sector (i think ??) so it's not really surprising that people have these same feelings when we've had a whole bunch of player changes, but nothing really significant on the field other than beating KC and not losing to Columbus on the road.

I don't believe that was an u-sector banner... regardless some people view things differently... I spearheaded the following RPB banner "We will Always Support You" that came out that same day without knowing about the "We Deserve better"...

At a time when our team was down and needed us I felt like syaing we are still here... That's just how some clubs in Latin America support their teams... they have banners such as 'This love is something you can't understand' or 'If you played in Heaven I would die just to see you'.... We support our troops on the field... yes we might not agree with management, some players etc... but that is taken outside... not on the field...

my 2 cents

[Hitcho]

I have no threshold. I support the team, period. I don't do it in return for a certain level of performance. There's no contract here that says "you only get my support, whether in terms of cheering, money spent or whatever, if you do things the way I want them done". I support the club because I want to.

The real question is this - when will all you naysayers who are making demands of certain levels of performance, certain players being signed and certain minimum results being achieved reach YOUR threshold and stop being a fan/supporter/follower because the club isn't meeting your expectations?

No-one makes you be a fan/supporter/follower or whatever, and no-one makes you spend money on the games, merchandise etc or forces you to turn on the tv and watch the games or track the results. The fact that you have chosen to do so doesn't give you the god given right to demand that the club is run in a certain way. You may feel that you have that entitlement, but you don't. You are entitled to give up following TFC in exasperation and not spend any more time or money on them, that's it. And if enough people do, the club will either have to change or go bust. That's the system.

Now I know there's an argument that you want to follow the team and you want it to do better and you want to keep supporting and because you do all that and keep giving MLSE money they should repay your loyalty and make a better fist of things. But that's not a demand you can make based on the small print on the back of your ticket. It would be nice if MLSE made a better job of things, but we can't make them.

So, your choice is support the team or give up on the whole thing. You can't imply rights and obligations into some kind of supporter's charter. If you don't like it, if you don't think your time and money is being well spent, stop spending it.

In the meantime, we have all chosen to support TFC. So let's support them. And if you reach your threshold, well it was nice having you along for the ride. See you again when the results get better. Ta ta.





TFC

[FluSH]

I like this attitude. If you come to the game, you support the team. I noticed a guy last home game who stood up and heckled Barrett within the first 10 minutes of the game. I thought that was bullshit.

Perfect example... is this how a 12th man behaves? I'm sorry but if you bring this sh!t to BMO Field, you might as well leave at half time.


12th man... it actually means something.

[Dave67]

May 6th it could break
May 13th it could explode

[Lucky Strike]

I don't believe that was an u-sector banner... regardless some people view things differently... I spearheaded the following RPB banner "We will Always Support You" that came out that same day without knowing about the "We Deserve better"...

At a time when our team was down and needed us I felt like syaing we are still here... That's just how some clubs in Latin America support their teams... they have banners such as 'This love is something you can't understant' or 'If you played in Heaven I would die just to see you'.... We support our troops on the field... yes we might not agree with management, some players etc... but that is taken outside... not on the field...

my 2 cents

You guys are making this thread so easy for me. Nearly all my views and opinions have been echoed by others.

Supporting a team like TFC for all eternity is a special thing: it can never be explained to those who don't have faith and believe as I do, and to those who do share it, faith never needs an explanation.

[Fort York Redcoat]

I'm giving up on Carver if he fails to score a goal after subbing himself in for Barrett.

Oh Yeeaaaaaahhhhh!- Mr. Kool Aid

[rocker]

Perfect example... is this how a 12th man behaves? I'm sorry but if you bring this sh!t to BMO Field, you might as well leave at half time.12th man... it actually means something.

Yes, I also never EVER (even on the boards) suggest that Montreal could beat us. :)

no "if montreal beats us" or "we better not lose to a USL team".

That's a defeatist attitude that depresses your energy as you arrive at BMO field on May 6 and May 13.

Until the 90 minutes are over, "we will beat them."

[Sonny Cheeba]

I don't believe that was an u-sector banner... regardless some people view things differently... I spearheaded the following RPB banner "We will Always Support You" that came out that same day without knowing about the "We Deserve better"...

At a time when our team was down and needed us I felt like syaing we are still here... That's just how some clubs in Latin America support their teams... they have banners such as 'This love is something you can't understand' or 'If you played in Heaven I would die just to see you'.... We support our troops on the field... yes we might not agree with management, some players etc... but that is taken outside... not on the field...

my 2 cents

sure both banners were brought out and i remember both.

but my point was that it can't be very surprising that people are angry 5 games into the third season, when these sentiments were already broadcast by a some people last season.

[K1nG]

Now that was fucking funny.
double true.

[Lucky Strike]

I have no threshold. I support the team, period. I don't do it in return for a certain level of performance. There's no contract here that says "you only get my support, whether in terms of cheering, money spent or whatever, if you do things the way I want them done". I support the club because I want to.

The real question is this - when will all you naysayers who are making demands of certain levels of performance, certain players being signed and certain minimum results being achieved reach YOUR threshold and stop being a fan/supporter/follower because the club isn't meeting your expectations?

TFC

Never.




I believe people are allowed to have expectations about the club's performace and if they aren't met, one can demand change (for instance with management). It doesn't mean such a person would stop supporting the team, however.

[K1nG]

I don't believe that was an u-sector banner... regardless some people view things differently... I spearheaded the following RPB banner "We will Always Support You" that came out that same day without knowing about the "We Deserve better"...

At a time when our team was down and needed us I felt like syaing we are still here... That's just how some clubs in Latin America support their teams... they have banners such as 'This love is something you can't understand' or 'If you played in Heaven I would die just to see you'.... We support our troops on the field... yes we might not agree with management, some players etc... but that is taken outside... not on the field...

my 2 cents
MENTOR!

[Fort York Redcoat]

I get this thread. I really do. A group of people want those that put faith before formation to say when. Just when it comes to the coach or manager. My answer is "I'll see" because every poor performance is partly on the players. Anyone watching Canada play knows that the wrong coach won't inspire but what you're asking is to look past our team's potential and cut the cord. I see there's a problem and I think it can be dealt with before ripping a hole in the team midseason.

[Dave67]

Yes, I also never EVER (even on the boards) suggest that Montreal could beat us. :)

no "if montreal beats us" or "we better not lose to a USL team".

That's a defeatist attitude that depresses your energy as you arrive at BMO field on May 6 and May 13.

Until the 90 minutes are over, "we will beat them."

Bullshit (on the defeatist attidude). It's an answer to a question. When will my threashold break in regards to this teams management. It has nothing to do whatsoever with how I carry myself when the games are on.

Support this team at all times possible when they are playing. When the games over every person can be in the crosshairs. I love the team - players and coaches are replaceable.

[trane]

We only sing when we are winning
We only sing when we are winning
sing when we are wiiiiiiining!
we only sing when we are winning!

The team will feel our wrath on these boards... but come gameday... I am part of those who consider themselves the 12th man... We have a job to do... and that is to support our team and make BMO Field the most intense stadium to play at... You don't like it... go boo at a Raptors game... this thing ain't for you.


I agree with you. I do not understand why people equate wanting a change in management/coaching with not supporting the team in the stands.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

I'm as frustrated as anyone, but in response to the original question, it's been suggested many times that the reason Newcastle (and the Leafs, for that matter) never win anything is because the fans put too much pressure on the team and on management and go around screaming like it's the end of the world every time they lose. Just saying.

[I_AM_CANADIAN]

Perfect example... is this how a 12th man behaves? I'm sorry but if you bring this sh!t to BMO Field, you might as well leave at half time.


12th man... it actually means something.
Completely agree with this. Even if one is unhappy with management, the players deserve support, and we should give it to them.

[Super]

I'll NEVER stop supporting TFC. It's my team, period. I'm not very pleased with the results so far this season, but that's football. At the end of the day we have to admit to ourselves that luck has not been on our side - and that goes for last season as well.

Support the team all the way. If we don't make the play-offs THEN demand changes.

[Super]

Perfect example... is this how a 12th man behaves? I'm sorry but if you bring this sh!t to BMO Field, you might as well leave at half time.


12th man... it actually means something.

Exactly. We have to be careful not to be too hard on the players - or else we risk creating an atmosphere that is hostile between us and them. If you play for TFC you know you're going to get a lot of heat from people and media if you do not play well. At least they should feel that the supporters will be the last to moan and bitch - and not the first.

[trane]

I have no threshold. I support the team, period. I don't do it in return for a certain level of performance. There's no contract here that says "you only get my support, whether in terms of cheering, money spent or whatever, if you do things the way I want them done". I support the club because I want to.

The real question is this - when will all you naysayers who are making demands of certain levels of performance, certain players being signed and certain minimum results being achieved reach YOUR threshold and stop being a fan/supporter/follower because the club isn't meeting your expectations?

No-one makes you be a fan/supporter/follower or whatever, and no-one makes you spend money on the games, merchandise etc or forces you to turn on the tv and watch the games or track the results. The fact that you have chosen to do so doesn't give you the god given right to demand that the club is run in a certain way. You may feel that you have that entitlement, but you don't. You are entitled to give up following TFC in exasperation and not spend any more time or money on them, that's it. And if enough people do, the club will either have to change or go bust. That's the system.

Now I know there's an argument that you want to follow the team and you want it to do better and you want to keep supporting and because you do all that and keep giving MLSE money they should repay your loyalty and make a better fist of things. But that's not a demand you can make based on the small print on the back of your ticket. It would be nice if MLSE made a better job of things, but we can't make them.

So, your choice is support the team or give up on the whole thing. You can't imply rights and obligations into some kind of supporter's charter. If you don't like it, if you don't think your time and money is being well spent, stop spending it.

In the meantime, we have all chosen to support TFC. So let's support them. And if you reach your threshold, well it was nice having you along for the ride. See you again when the results get better. Ta ta.





TFC


I will not get into personal attacks because the president asked me not to. But are you kidding me? I will never stop supporting TFC, it is my club, I will always support it. Supporting it means pushing it toward victory, which sometimes means askign for change. That time may come soon.

[Parkdale]

didn't we just have this discussing yesterday? and the day before that?

[Hitcho]

Never.




I believe people are allowed to have expectations about the club's performace and if they aren't met, one can demand change (for instance with management). It doesn't mean such a person would stop supporting the team, however.

On what basis can you "demand" change though? Where does your ticket stub give you that right?

I'm being pernickity here, sorry, but I'm doing so to make a point. We all have a preference about how the team is run and how well it does. If we didn't, we wouldn't be fans in the first place. But that's all it is - a preference. Every single fan/supporter/follower or whatever has their own preference. Things you'd like to see. But neither individually nor as a whole does that amount to the right to make demands about the club, and I mean demand in its true sense.

The bottom line remains that you (plural, not you personally) have your preferences and you hope to see them met. If they are nto met, then you have a choice to make: decide that because the end result and product is so far off what you were hoping for that you are no longer interested; or accept that your preferences have not yet been met but continue to support the team in the hope that are met in the future - keep chasing that dream.

There's no option to "demand" that the club meet your preferences though. Let's say you want Carver out, or Barrett sold. And let's say another person wants them both kept. Who gets to decide? Neither - only MLSE do because they own the franchise.

All of these voices on here, including mine, are like fleas on a dog demanding which way they want the dog to walk. Sure, we pay our money to the dog but only on the basis that the dog says "I'll do my best to make you happy, but ultimately you get what you're given". The dog doesn't promise us it'll make it to a certain destination or get there in a specific way.

[pubboy]

I hate to say it, but i obviously have a very high threshold as i have supported Coventry for 40 years ! Every year at the start of the season, i have huge expectations about winning everything, and soon come to the realisation that it aint gonna happen. It really sucks now that i support two very similar teams, with lots of potential, but no consistency. Have to say though, i do like Carver. I'm just not sure that all the players totally buy into his style and ideas.

[trane]

Let me say this , if we as supporters see that change is needed to better our club, who will then? I am sorry, but in the football colture that I grew up in, in the stadium I always support my team. But if I see that somethign or someone is hurting my team, the team that I love, I demand change. That is part of my job as I see it, as a supporter.

[Hitcho]

I will not get into personal attacks because the president asked me not to. But are you kidding me? I will never stop supporting TFC, it is my club, I will always support it. Supporting it means pushing it toward victory, which sometimes means askign for change. That time may come soon.

I'm with you on this entirely. That's the point though - we can ASK for change, hope for it, pray for it and breathe for it. But if it doesn't come, we still support the team. To me, it's just that simple. That's the life of a fan. You rejoice in the good times and sit tight through the bad times.

[trane]

On what basis can you "demand" change though? Where does your ticket stub give you that right?

I'm being pernickity here, sorry, but I'm doing so to make a point. We all have a preference about how the team is run and how well it does. If we didn't, we wouldn't be fans in the first place. But that's all it is - a preference. Every single fan/supporter/follower or whatever has their own preference. Things you'd like to see. But neither individually nor as a whole does that amount to the right to make demands about the club, and I mean demand in its true sense.

The bottom line remains that you (plural, not you personally) have your preferences and you hope to see them met. If they are nto met, then you have a choice to make: decide that because the end result and product is so far off what you were hoping for that you are no longer interested; or accept that your preferences have not yet been met but continue to support the team in the hope that are met in the future - keep chasing that dream.

There's no option to "demand" that the club meet your preferences though. Let's say you want Carver out, or Barrett sold. And let's say another person wants them both kept. Who gets to decide? Neither - only MLSE do because they own the franchise.

All of these voices on here, including mine, are like fleas on a dog demanding which way they want the dog to walk. Sure, we pay our money to the dog but only on the basis that the dog says "I'll do my best to make you happy, but ultimately you get what you're given". The dog doesn't promise us it'll make it to a certain destination or get there in a specific way.


This is the misunderstading. The CLUB is nothing without its supporters. The club is just a name without its supporters. The true value of a club is messured by its support. MLSE may own it on paper, but in reality it is ours. Particullarly in the case of TFC the only success it has experienced is its supporters. Ofcourse we can deamand better, supporters of every club can and do. They do not always get it but they do demand.

[Kickit09]

some people in this city will go at least 42 years apparently.


:poke:

[Hitcho]

Let me say this , if we as supporters see that change is needed to better our club, who will then? I am sorry, but in the football colture that I grew up in, in the stadium I always support my team. But if I see that somethign or someone is hurting my team, the team that I love, I demand change. That is part of my job as I see it, as a supporter.

Agreed again - we can call for whatever we thinkis best for the team. Not everyone will call for the same thing of course, some want player or coach X and some don't. But then we're back where we started - if your call goes unanswered, you either stick with it and continue to back the team, or you jump ship.

[trane]

didn't we just have this discussing yesterday? and the day before that?

Parky, you always want to ruin a good time. BUFFON, the greatest goalies in the world.

[TFC07]

Let me say this , if we as supporters see that change is needed to better our club, who will then? I am sorry, but in the football colture that I grew up in, in the stadium I always support my team. But if I see that somethign or someone is hurting my team, the team that I love, I demand change. That is part of my job as I see it, as a supporter.

EXACTLY!!!

I don't understand why most people here don't get this?

[Lucky Strike]

On what basis can you "demand" change though? Where does your ticket stub give you that right?

I'm being pernickity here, sorry, but I'm doing so to make a point. We all have a preference about how the team is run and how well it does. If we didn't, we wouldn't be fans in the first place. But that's all it is - a preference. Every single fan/supporter/follower or whatever has their own preference. Things you'd like to see. But neither individually nor as a whole does that amount to the right to make demands about the club, and I mean demand in its true sense.

The bottom line remains that you (plural, not you personally) have your preferences and you hope to see them met. If they are nto met, then you have a choice to make: decide that because the end result and product is so far off what you were hoping for that you are no longer interested; or accept that your preferences have not yet been met but continue to support the team in the hope that are met in the future - keep chasing that dream.

There's no option to "demand" that the club meet your preferences though. Let's say you want Carver out, or Barrett sold. And let's say another person wants them both kept. Who gets to decide? Neither - only MLSE do because they own the franchise.

All of these voices on here, including mine, are like fleas on a dog demanding which way they want the dog to walk. Sure, we pay our money to the dog but only on the basis that the dog says "I'll do my best to make you happy, but ultimately you get what you're given". The dog doesn't promise us it'll make it to a certain destination or get there in a specific way.

I considered whether I should add more to the "demand" part of my earlier post - I realize I should have.

You're correct - there is in fact nothing that says: "if you're not happy with the team, you can knock on MLSE's door and ask that something be done" - you can't have a million GMs. Rather, what I was trying to say by "demand" is more to express a desire for things to become better ("better" being defined individually as you've pointed out). But as my succint answer put it, whether these things become better or not (or God forbid, worse), I won't cease to support the team. In other words, as a supporter any demands I may have are really hopes and desires and the wish that they be fulfilled. Rest assured, I am fully aware of that fact.

Hope that clears things up!

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

This is not meant to be a personal attack on anyone, but it's generally directed to users here who think that getting the torches lit for an angry mob after "2.2 years" is too quick.

When will your threshold break? If TFC continues to play like this, mediocre football, not bad enough to be the Crew but not good enough for a playoff spot, when will your patience run out?

EDIT: By patience I mean you're saying screw it and calling for the heads of Carver, Mo, the players, etc.

Please give me your reasoning on this. :)


i support the team regardless of the won-loss record...Im also realistic
that it takes time to build a football club and 3 years is not enought time,i look at 5-7 years before my patience will run thin...not before that time.
Carver and Mo need the 5 years as the team planned from the 1st season. Good things will happen for this team..if they stick to the plan..
if they start firing everyone in site we will be no better then the hockey losers that play at the ACC.

[Darlofletch]

I have no threshold. I support the team, period. I don't do it in return for a certain level of performance. There's no contract here that says "you only get my support, whether in terms of cheering, money spent or whatever, if you do things the way I want them done". I support the club because I want to.

The real question is this - when will all you naysayers who are making demands of certain levels of performance, certain players being signed and certain minimum results being achieved reach YOUR threshold and stop being a fan/supporter/follower because the club isn't meeting your expectations?

No-one makes you be a fan/supporter/follower or whatever, and no-one makes you spend money on the games, merchandise etc or forces you to turn on the tv and watch the games or track the results. The fact that you have chosen to do so doesn't give you the god given right to demand that the club is run in a certain way. You may feel that you have that entitlement, but you don't. You are entitled to give up following TFC in exasperation and not spend any more time or money on them, that's it. And if enough people do, the club will either have to change or go bust. That's the system.

Now I know there's an argument that you want to follow the team and you want it to do better and you want to keep supporting and because you do all that and keep giving MLSE money they should repay your loyalty and make a better fist of things. But that's not a demand you can make based on the small print on the back of your ticket. It would be nice if MLSE made a better job of things, but we can't make them.

So, your choice is support the team or give up on the whole thing. You can't imply rights and obligations into some kind of supporter's charter. If you don't like it, if you don't think your time and money is being well spent, stop spending it.

In the meantime, we have all chosen to support TFC. So let's support them. And if you reach your threshold, well it was nice having you along for the ride. See you again when the results get better. Ta ta.





TFC

Dude, stop being such a lawyer.

the whole attitude that you can't criticise at all if you want to consider yourself a supporter is ridiculous. It's like Fox news and the like saying anyone criticising George Bush was unpatriotic, unamerican and if they don't like it they should go to Russia. Apparently criticising Obama is fine for them but that's another story.

I really don't like Harper and the Conservatives, should I have to revoke my citizenship?

Getting back to football, I grew up a Darlington fan, I've seen my share of shit football, angry "sack the board" mobs and plenty of chanting to fire the manager. Doesn't mean the people involved aren't supporters, certainly they're more so than the type who supports Liverpool or Man united from the tv without ever actually seeing a game.

[Mark in Ottawa]

I guess what with my "advanced years" I have a different take on it.
When I get ticked I recognize it for what it is.... I care!
I want the team to do well and I am sure that the players and coaches do as well.

I take a deep breath and think back to "the dark times" when the only soccer information I could get about the pros was from week old newspapers. :eek:

TV? Well they did play the World Cup games... every 4 years :(

We have domestic football and it is being supported and followed by a significant section of the media via TV, Radio, Newspaper and that "Internet thingy". Live is good... and another Guinness please :drinking:

[Ratven]

I'm just worried that for a lot of people the honeymoon will end this year if we don't pick up the play. And by a lot of people, I mean a lot of people that aren't on this board, and don't sit where we sit. But if we continue to play the way we play in this already shit league, the novelty of a soccer team in Toronto will very quickly wear off and we can start saying goodbye to sellouts every game (announced sellouts will happen sure, but there will start to be more and more empty seats in the stands).

[TFC Cityboy]

I've barely been on the boards the past 2 weeks due to all the muppets that panic after a few matches. Give it some time, get behind the team and let's see where we are a couple of months in.

FFS, people.

[ilikemusic]

I think saying 'real supporter' should be a bannable offense. ;)

[Dave67]

2007 - last in the league
2008 - last in the East
2009 - slow start (after Kansas)

but please don't put pressure on the players or management... give it some time. I'm off to Vegas. God I hope this team puts in two stellar performances while I am away.

[Blazer]

My loyalty runs deeper than a few lousy games. I have vested interest in being able to one day say, “I supported this team, these players, these coaches, this franchise through thick and thin and never once waivered or jumped off the wagon”. This means more to me than being a phony New York Yankees or ManU fan.

I’ll choose to stick it out with it in mind that nobody within this franchise is trying to field a bad product. Instead, I’ll take solace in believing that Mo and Carver are doing everything in their power to bring a championship to this city, and more importantly, to the masses of true supports.

[nfitz]

Well, it's been 42-years now for the Maple Leafs ... so by that scale, the threshold shouldn't break until 2050 or so.

Not seeing the big deal here. After 5 games we're 1-2-2. In 2007 we started out 1-0-4, and in 2008 we went almost 4 months from June to October with only a single win. There's been some good signs. There's no reason we shouldn't finish in the top 8 this season, which was the goal coming in.

The lack of patience among fans is stunning. Perhaps this is why the kids today are called the "I want it now" generation?

[Kooper]

This is not meant to be a personal attack on anyone, but it's generally directed to users here who think that getting the torches lit for an angry mob after "2.2 years" is too quick.

When will your threshold break? If TFC continues to play like this, mediocre football, not bad enough to be the Crew but not good enough for a playoff spot, when will your patience run out?

EDIT: By patience I mean you're saying screw it and calling for the heads of Carver, Mo, the players, etc.

Please give me your reasoning on this. :)

I grew up a Sens Fan. I put up with a lot of misery. As long as there was improvement year on year I was happy. 6 years later they made the playoffs, then they started to win playoff series. When they got to the cup final it was fantastic but also brutal. Now I am enjoying the ride up.

The expectation from fans that we will win everything the first year is frankly stupid. This is a league that requires you to build through the draft. If we don't and try to buy players or trade our prospects away there is no way that we will ever get to the top.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

I stopped supporting Carver after those 2 months last summer were we where absolutely terrible.

This season, I think Carver has to get us into the Concacaf Champions League. If not, he will be gone at the end of the Voyageurs Cup. If he does pull that off, he will than have until the end of the season to get us to the playoffs.


The League has to be our main aim...not the concacaf champions league.
or the canadian championship both of them would be a nice bounus, but the league must always come first.

[menefreghista]

The League has to be our main aim...not the concacaf champions league.
or the canadian championship both of them would be a nice bounus, but the league must always come first.

So you would accept losing to inferior USL teams for a 2nd straight season?

I know I wouldn't.

The funny thing is, I think Carver probably is being pressured to reach the Champions League. Failure to do so will mean a real loss of money to TFC/MLSE. Including having to refund season ticket holders for the Preliminary Round ticket that we've already paid for. Plus loss of Group Stage revenue from home games.

[Pachuco]

The League has to be our main aim...not the concacaf champions league.
or the canadian championship both of them would be a nice bounus, but the league must always come first.

Beating USL teams can not be considered a bonus. Specially, when you aren't doing well in the league as it is. If we were in first, and we were overworked in the league and therefore lost to USL teams, that would be a different story. But at this point, we cannot afford to lose to USL teams at home in the coming weeks.

[nfitz]

So you would accept losing to inferior USL teams for a 2nd straight season?Evidence from last season suggests that the top USL teams are better than the top MLS teams, and last season Montreal and Vancouver were 2 of the top 3 USL teams. Remember that the while the salary cap and roster-size limitations keep the MLS teams quite equal, there is much more disparity in USL; so while the average there is worse, and worst teams are horrid, the best USL teams can beat MLS teams.

[Beach_Red]

some people in this city will go at least 42 years apparently.


:poke:

Believe it or not there are even some sports teams in North America that have never won a championship and still have loyal fans.

What's wrong with people? Why haven't the Vancouver Canucks folded yet? Why do people buy tickets to the San Diego Padres or the Cincinatti Bengals?

It's just crazy.

[menefreghista]

You can still be a loyal fan and criticize the poor TFC management.

[Fort York Redcoat]

Since, as Parky said above, this is turning into a daily convert sation perhaps we, as in you who started and agree with this threads sentiments, could ask the mods to sticky a new thread called "fire the coach and or manager- agree/disagree"

We could have us a list of those who are ready to sack them today and those who are sticking with them. Extra fun would be to see the username + how many weeks/games they'll give them before they'd sack 'em. I'd be interested to see who sticks by their number. The thread title helps because this way no matter who comes to the club we don't have to change the names of the coach/manager involved.

I'll start the Kool-Aid Drinker thread.:p

[giambac]

This is not meant to be a personal attack on anyone, but it's generally directed to users here who think that getting the torches lit for an angry mob after "2.2 years" is too quick.

When will your threshold break? If TFC continues to play like this, mediocre football, not bad enough to be the Crew but not good enough for a playoff spot, when will your patience run out?

EDIT: By patience I mean you're saying screw it and calling for the heads of Carver, Mo, the players, etc.

Please give me your reasoning on this. :)

For me the thresold has already come and gone. I would have done it last season when we missed the palyoffs, when we failed to advance over Montreal and Vancouver to represent Canada in the Concacef and when there was no improvement from year 1.

I believe we coould have and should have made the playoffs last season. We started off strong and then some bad management/coaching decsions (i.e KC match at home) changed the season. We went down from there and the players on most nights looked like they didn't care.

This year Mo brought in better talent with DERO and Serioux and still the team on most nights looks worst than last year. Time is now. The time is long overdue for changes. That's my opinion.

[drewski]

my breaking point with management (I will always be a fan of the team and will hope they win) will be when I believe they have given up, are no longer trying to improve the team or have no room to improve.

I don't believe management has stopped trying to improve the roster (DeRo, Serioux, Frei, Cronin, etc) nor do I believe the coaching staff has staff caring (have you seen Carver going at it on the sidelines?) and I don't believe they are close those points either.

We're only 5 games in and there are a lot of new faces this year that need to learn not only JC's system but also their teammates style, and to really get comfortable in tune, it takes far more then 5 games and a preseason.

[Pachuco]

So to answer the question in the thread. My water broke last year at the KC home game :). That's when I decided this team was seriously heading in the wrong direction with coach and players we had at that time. So what does that mean? well, I come on here and complain about Carver and vent on this board, that's about all that means. So having said that, I still buy TFC merchandise, still go to all the games and chant my ass off, I still watch their horrible footie away, still talk about them 20 hours a day..etc etc. So if that's not enough proof that I support this team then so be it. I can't believe some people actually judge a supporter based on what they say on a message board.and I agree completely with Flush, you keep that shit to the forums or talk between friends, when TFC plays, it's time to show our support.

[giambac]

So to answer the question in the thread. My water broke last year at the KC home game :). That's when I decided this team was seriously heading in the wrong direction with coach and players we had at that time. So what does that mean? well, I come on here and complain about Carver and vent on this board, that's about all that means. So having said that, I still buy TFC merchandise, still go to all the games and chant my ass off, I still watch their horrible footie away, still talk about them 20 hours a day..etc etc. So if that's not enough proof that I support this team then so be it. I can't believe some people actually judge a supporter based on what they say on a message board.and I agree completely with Flush, you keep that shit to the forums or talk between friends, when TFC plays, it's time to show our support.

Very well said.;)

[Cashcleaner]

For me everything is now game-by-game. The back is strained, but not breaking.

Just yet.

Look, the thing that people have to understand is that when many people talk about their dissatisfaction with the team, its based on a trend that they see developing, not simply the wins and loses of individual games.

[billyfly]

I just bought a TFC baseball cap so I guess the threshold hasn't been reached.

[Parkdale]

Far from it.


look at the people out there around the world who have been behind a poor team for years. Why do they go on? Because it's their team for good or bad. TFC is my team, and even when it hurts to watch (like last weekend), I won't be leaving them. I'm not saying I won't be critical of their shortcomings, but I've got a long LONG way to go before turning my back on them.

seems like some people were expecting peaks without valleys.

[Kickit09]

Believe it or not there are even some sports teams in North America that have never won a championship and still have loyal fans.

What's wrong with people? Why haven't the Vancouver Canucks folded yet? Why do people buy tickets to the San Diego Padres or the Cincinatti Bengals?

It's just crazy.

you obviously don't understand what the question in this thread is. try reading it over again, really slowly... whats wrong with people. :rolleyes5:

[Pachuco]

Far from it.


look at the people out there around the world who have been behind a poor team for years. Why do they go on? Because it's their team for good or bad. TFC is my team, and even when it hurts to watch (like last weekend), I won't be leaving them. I'm not saying I won't be critical of their shortcomings, but I've got a long LONG way to go before turning my back on them.

seems like some people were expecting peaks without valleys.

Honestly, the people on these boards mostly care about the team, and would never turn their back on the team. The only people that may turn their back on the team are the part time supporters. So this question really should be aimed at those who don't even visit these boards.

[Oldtimer]

you obviously don't understand what the question in this thread is. try reading it over again, really slowly... whats wrong with people. :rolleyes5:

You shouldn't do personal attacks.

He's obviously saying that for some people, the answer to the question is "never."

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

So you would accept losing to inferior USL teams for a 2nd straight season?

I know I wouldn't.

The funny thing is, I think Carver probably is being pressured to reach the Champions League. Failure to do so will mean a real loss of money to TFC/MLSE. Including having to refund season ticket holders for the Preliminary Round ticket that we've already paid for. Plus loss of Group Stage revenue from home games.


who says Montreal and Vancouver are inferior? How many EPL teams get knocked out of cup competitions by lower league teams ...it happens.
The CCL ticket could always be deducted from next years price!!
the team must improve first..on our current form the CCL would be a dead loss anyways...so lets get the ship righted first.

[Blazer]

You can still be a loyal fan and criticize the poor TFC management.

Exactly. But that’s not what this thread is about is it?!

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Far from it.


look at the people out there around the world who have been behind a poor team for years. Why do they go on? Because it's their team for good or bad. TFC is my team, and even when it hurts to watch (like last weekend), I won't be leaving them. I'm not saying I won't be critical of their shortcomings, but I've got a long LONG way to go before turning my back on them.

seems like some people were expecting peaks without valleys.


For the real fans that stick it out...when we do win the MLS Cup it will
mean that little bit more then to those who who jump on and off the bandwagon ....i look forward to this day.....

[Shakes McQueen]

I don't have a threshold where I will suddenly say enough is enough and start calling for everything and everyone to be shipped out of town. That isn't practical, it's just indiscriminate outrage. Functional teams don't work that way.

If I see individual players who don't seem to be putting forth an acceptable level of effort, or who simply don't have the needed talent, and are a liability to our squad, I will call for them to be moved. Of course, individual opinions on this front can vary greatly.

My opinions on Carver and Mo are more complicated, because it's hard to tell what is the result of bad coaching, and what is the result of a good coach being stuck with bad players - or the wrong players.

I also think this year's starting lineup features a lot of new faces, and as such, Carver should be given a fair shake to get them playing at the top of their game. Five games isn't enough time to judge our true form. Last year proved that, with our great start, and then woeful play all through the summer.

Canning the coach/management all the time, is just too easy. The players have to take responsibility for their level of play on the pitch at some point. Even if Carver picked the wrong formation every game, it shouldn't result in such a lack of creativity, and the inability to string three passes together.

And regardless of some of the sarcastic musings of folks here, I sincerely don't believe Carver is telling them to play "long ball" as a matter of official strategy.

I will criticize where I think individual criticism is warranted. For example, Carver's angry rant after our last game, really rubbed me the wrong way. While the penalty ultimately cost us the draw, the referees did not cost us either of the other goals, that were the result of pathetic giveaways in bad areas of the pitch. Letting your team off the hook for a first half like we had in Dallas, is not right.

I also think Mo's decision to trade Marshall prior to having his incoming deal for a new CB (that ultimately fell through) finalized, was supremely asinine, and has left us with an incomplete back four, that lacks depth.

- Scott

[Dave67]

For the real fans that stick it out...when we do win the MLS Cup it will
mean that little bit more then to those who who jump on and off the bandwagon ....i look forward to this day.....

just asking .. real fans to you = never calling for the head of a coach or manager? or am I missing something.

No one is saying they are walking away from the team, but calling for Mo's head? Carvers head? Player 'X's head?

Let's just say that if you think 'sticking it out' means never questioning anyone on this team then we disagree on what a 'real fan' is.

[trane]

This thread is not about turning your back to the team, I do not think anyone is advocating that. The issue is when do we as a group, or as individuals call for change.

[mclaren]

For me, as a Sunderland fan who has experienced many, many years of horrendous football, some of the best fans I have ever met are those that complain and protest against management. They are the true passionate fans, always dedicated to the cause. When game day comes, they get behind the team 100%, but when the whistle blows they let management know their true feelings. These are the real fans.

[nfitz]

This year Mo brought in better talent with DERO and Serioux and still the team on most nights looks worst than last year.Surely, it is irrelevent how it looks on most nights, given that most of our games are day games.


you obviously don't understand what the question in this thread is. try reading it over again, really slowly... whats wrong with people. :rolleyes5:???????????????????? What is wrong with you? His answer was quite clear. Never - or no time soon. I fail to see the need to personally attack people because they don't agree with you! What a sad place this is becoming!

[Blazer]

This thread is not about turning your back to the team, I do not think anyone is advocating that. The issue is when do we as a group, or as individuals call for change.

When you feel that management is responsible versus the players who have drastically under performed thus far. Fuck me, it’ll come for Christ sakes. We don’t have to blow our loads after 5 goddamn games. We’re 4 points out of first place and we haven’t seen much of the East yet on the pitch, so perhaps it’s time for a valium?!

Carver and Mo are smart guys. They'll get this thing fixed and in a few short weeks from now we'll be singing a different song, and skipping to a different dance.

[Shakes McQueen]

For me, as a Sunderland fan who has experienced many, many years of horrendous football, some of the best fans I have ever met are those that complain and protest against management. They are the true passionate fans, always dedicated to the cause. When game day comes, they get behind the team 100%, but when the whistle blows they let management know their true feelings. These are the real fans.

I essentially agree with this. That said, there are quite a few people here who don't get behind the team 100% until the final whistle, as you put it.

Most game day threads here, for example, seem to degenerate into a handful of people making sarcastic jokes back and forth, about how bad we are. They actually seem to get a kick out of mocking their own team DURING A GAME.

These people aren't real fans, to me.

- Scott

[Kickit09]

For me, as a Sunderland fan who has experienced many, many years of horrendous football, some of the best fans I have ever met are those that complain and protest against management. They are the true passionate fans, always dedicated to the cause. When game day comes, they get behind the team 100%, but when the whistle blows they let management know their true feelings. These are the real fans.



your bang on. that's the difference between a supporter and a cheerleader.

[trane]

For me, as a Sunderland fan who has experienced many, many years of horrendous football, some of the best fans I have ever met are those that complain and protest against management. They are the true passionate fans, always dedicated to the cause. When game day comes, they get behind the team 100%, but when the whistle blows they let management know their true feelings. These are the real fans.

That is what supportes should be like, in my books.

[S_D]

Look, the thing that people have to understand is that when many people talk about their dissatisfaction with the team, its based on a trend that they see developing, not simply the wins and loses of individual games.

You have hit the nail on the head here. If we were winless, but I saw consistent quality posession, and some good chances on goal I would be much happier than I am now. We saw some brilliant posession in a couple of games last season, against KC and RSL. And I expected it to only grow. But it only lasted 1/2 the game in both and just disappeared and turned into longball and being outposessed in the second half. And I didn't see much of that for the rest of the season.

Where did that quality go?

[mclaren]

I essentially agree with this. That said, there are quite a few people here who don't get behind the team 100% until the final whistle, as you put it.

Most game day threads here, for example, seem to degenerate into a handful of people making sarcastic jokes back and forth, about how bad we are. They actually seem to get a kick out of mocking their own team DURING A GAME.

These people aren't real fans, to me.

- Scott

I don't agree with any fan mocking players during a game as we should get behind them as much as possible during those 90 minutes. But I think it is disingenuous to say that the fans who criticise management in between games are not real fans. If anything, the reason they want to change is because they CARE. And that, to me, is something that should be commended. Sometimes you need a little tough love.

[Kickit09]

???????????????????? What is wrong with you? His answer was quite clear. Never - or no time soon. I fail to see the need to personally attack people because they don't agree with you! What a sad place this is becoming!

whats wrong with you? the question was when does your patience run out and you start questioning the team instead of blind faith. not when do you stop being a fan. and i didn't personally attack anyone. i sarcastically wrote the exact same thing to him as he did to me. i think you need to read the thread again too.

[trane]

When you feel that management is responsible versus the players who have drastically under performed thus far. Fuck me, it’ll come for Christ sakes. We don’t have to blow our loads after 5 goddamn games. We’re 4 points out of first place and we haven’t seen much of the East yet on the pitch, so perhaps it’s time for a valium?!

Carver and Mo are smart guys. They'll get this thing fixed and in a few short weeks from now we'll be singing a different song, and skipping to a different dance.

As cashcleaner has said we are not talking about a few games, we are talking about a trend that started last season. I was hoping better, but we have not seen it. You do not see it, you do not see it, what can I tell you? But what makes you think we will get better. I hope you are right, but so far there is little evidence.

[Shakes McQueen]

I don't agree with any fan mocking players during a game as we should get behind them as much as possible during those 90 minutes. But I think it is disingenuous to say that the fans who criticise management in between games are not real fans. If anything, the reason they want to change is because they CARE. And that, to me, is something that should be commended. Sometimes you need a little tough love.

I agree. I don't think being critical of the team in between games is wrong - it's your sacred right as a supporter.

- Scott

[Dave67]

Fuck me, it’ll come for Christ sakes. We don’t have to blow our loads after 5 goddamn games.

The question "When will your threshold break? "

So for you it won't be after 5 games. When will it be? For me it could be after May 13th. If we continue to be average in the league and under perform against both Vancouver and Montreal then my days of believing Carver and Mo can do it are over.

[Sonny Cheeba]

I essentially agree with this. That said, there are quite a few people here who don't get behind the team 100% until the final whistle, as you put it.

Most game day threads here, for example, seem to degenerate into a handful of people making sarcastic jokes back and forth, about how bad we are. They actually seem to get a kick out of mocking their own team DURING A GAME.

These people aren't real fans, to me.

- Scott

yeah on the internet where these things can be discussed. at a game you can't exactly criticize a player, then go on and have a lengthly debate about it.

am i supposed to be starting chants online so that ricketts can get it on his blackberry and then twitter it to everyone? "they're chanting for us at home, oh wait, you're all on the field in another city and can't hear them in anyway"

people who criticize players and managers are real supporters to me. show's they're paying attention, and can have a discussion about what can be done. i prefer people who are critical over the team's performance and show that they're interested in actually watching the game at home and talking about it with other supporters.

if you can't be critical, you're basically a bandwagon hopper. happy to cheer on the score rather than the performance.

at BMO, get behind the team. but on the internet in match-threads. i welcome all the criticism. even at BMO, i'll call for players to be subbed, does that make me a bad supporter?

[Pachuco]

I essentially agree with this. That said, there are quite a few people here who don't get behind the team 100% until the final whistle, as you put it.

Most game day threads here, for example, seem to degenerate into a handful of people making sarcastic jokes back and forth, about how bad we are. They actually seem to get a kick out of mocking their own team DURING A GAME.

These people aren't real fans, to me.

- Scott

But Shakes, surely there's a difference with getting frustrated with the level of play and making that known in a game day thread. What we are talking about is supporting this team while they are on the field and we are in the stands. I mean, what am I to do, start chanting all by myself at the television? I support this team when it counts, and that makes me a real fan. I rarely bash this team on a game day thread during an away game, but if I do, it's because I'm frustrated, that's all. Still a real fan.

[Darlofletch]

I essentially agree with this. That said, there are quite a few people here who don't get behind the team 100% until the final whistle, as you put it.

Most game day threads here, for example, seem to degenerate into a handful of people making sarcastic jokes back and forth, about how bad we are. They actually seem to get a kick out of mocking their own team DURING A GAME.

These people aren't real fans, to me.

- Scott

How does what people write here during the game affect the game in any way at all. The players aren't reading this while they play.

What people sing or yell form the stands during the game, you can argue that effects things, but comments on an in game thread? That's fair game to be as critical or sarcastic as you like.

[BFin]

you obviously don't understand what the question in this thread is. try reading it over again, really slowly... whats wrong with people. :rolleyes5:
try heeding your own advice.
his post made sense.
I understand his opinion exactly.
Rome wasn't built in a day, and obviously TFC hasn't been either.
His call was for people to stick by them because there are lots of franchises around the world with dedicated fans who have not won a championship yet. His threshold is near unbreakable, and that's commendable in a sports fan.
B

[Shakes McQueen]

yeah on the internet where these things can be discussed. at a game you can't exactly criticize a player, then go on and have a lengthly debate about it.

am i supposed to be starting chants online so that ricketts can get it on his blackberry and then twitter it to everyone? "they're chanting for us at home, oh wait, you're all on the field in another city and can't hear them in anyway"

people who criticize players and managers are real supporters to me. show's they're paying attention, and can have a discussion about what can be done. i prefer people who are critical over the team's performance and show that they're interested in actually watching the game at home and talking about it with other supporters.

if you can't be critical, you're basically a bandwagon hopper. happy to cheer on the score rather than the performance.

at BMO, get behind the team. but on the internet in match-threads. i welcome all the criticism. even at BMO, i'll call for players to be subbed, does that make me a bad supporter?

As I said, these aren't "discussions", they are a handful of people sarcastically mocking the team through the entire game.

Still though, I appreciate your unnecessarily glib response to what I said.

- Scott

[trane]

I have to say it is like there are two different discussion going on, on one side, we have people saying when are you going to ask for change, and the others are saying you should support the team forever. The two things are not mutually exclusive, quite the contrary, in my opinion.

[Blazer]

As cashcleaner has said we are not talking about a few games, we are talking about a trend that started last season. I was hoping better, but we have not seen it. You do not see it, you do not see it, what can I tell you? But what makes you think we will get better. I hope you are right, but so far there is little evidence.

I guess I don’t see it. You’re right, blow the entire fucking thing up and start from scratch.

[Shakes McQueen]

But Shakes, surely there's a difference with getting frustrated with the level of play and making that known in a game day thread. What we are talking about is supporting this team while they are on the field and we are in the stands. I mean, what am I to do, start chanting all by myself at the television? I support this team when it counts, and that makes me a real fan. I rarely bash this team on a game day thread during an away game, but if I do, it's because I'm frustrated, that's all. Still a real fan.

Again... not my point. My point is that a "real fan" doesn't get off on making fun of his own team during a game - not that people sitting at home should be cheering at their television sets. When we are playing like shit, it just depresses me. When people in Europe are watching their teams lose in a pub, they aren't having a sarcastic guffaw back and forth, about how bad their team is. It's just depressing.

And furthermore, I tihnk there is a distinction between "being frustrated with level of play and making that known", and the kind of behaviour I'm describing. Folks like you do the former.

- Scott

[Sonny Cheeba]

As I said, these aren't "discussions", they are a handful of people sarcastically mocking the team through the entire game.

Still though, I appreciate your unnecessarily glib response to what I said.

- Scott

and it's all on the internet. where, if you want, you can make something of it by starting a discussion. or you can just complain that these people aren't real supporters. maybe some of them don't care, but they obviously care enough to actually say something.

does it really get you down that people are mocking the team when they're playing like shit? worry more about what's on the pitch. you can't affect it in a message board while it's happening.

what do you want from them? the typing of chants and cheers that the team won't hear?

"oh when the reds"

all you said was "c'mon guys, let's get behind our team" rather than countering their sarcastic put-downs.

it's the internet dude.

[Pachuco]

Again... not my point. My point is that a "real fan" doesn't get off on making fun of his own team during a game - not that people sitting at home should be cheering at their television sets. When we are playing like shit, it just depresses me. When people in Europe are watching their teams lose in a pub, they aren't having a sarcastic guffaw back and forth, about how bad their team is. It's just depressing.

And furthermore, I tihnk there is a distinction between "being frustrated with level of play and making that known", and the kind of behaviour I'm describing. Folks like you do the former.

- Scott

Ok gotcha. I must say, I stay away from game threads. Mostly because I find it really hard to watch the game and have a conversation on a forum at the same time. I don't like to miss a single moment. Last game I was pretty frustrated though so I logged in at half and said I'm turning this off if Brennan sends another long ball. Obviously I didn't mean it, pure frustration :)

[fetajr]

As for Carver, I want to see some improvement in the next few games. Not necessarily wins (although of course that is what we all want). If they can't string more than a couple of passes together and just continually boot it upfield, I want Carver gone as soon as a replacement can be found.


I agree 100%...with Carver fired, Mo has to hire someone else... how do we know that the next guy will be better than Carver if its Mo who does the hiring?.... will we end up with another coach that preaches "just fire it up the field and maybe we'll get a break" or "just throw the ball into the box and maybe we'll get a head on it" ...fuckin useless.

[Sonny Cheeba]

Again... not my point. My point is that a "real fan" doesn't get off on making fun of his own team during a game - not that people sitting at home should be cheering at their television sets. When we are playing like shit, it just depresses me. When people in Europe are watching their teams lose in a pub, they aren't having a sarcastic guffaw back and forth, about how bad their team is. It's just depressing.

And furthermore, I tihnk there is a distinction between "being frustrated with level of play and making that known", and the kind of behaviour I'm describing. Folks like you do the former.

- Scott

i know you're an arsenal supporter, to say that Europeans don't have a go at their team is shit.

did you not see Eboue get subbed on AND off in that game in December, and get boo'd by what sounded like the entire emirates crowd? and that was at a home game. not in front of the television. i'm sure if this happens, then there are plenty of sarcastic comments flying around.

look at all the Liverpool supporters who hate Lucas

[Shakes McQueen]

and it's all on the internet. where, if you want, you can make something of it by starting a discussion. or you can just complain that these people aren't real supporters. maybe some of them don't care, but they obviously care enough to actually say something.

does it really get you down that people are mocking the team when they're playing like shit? worry more about what's on the pitch. you can't affect it in a message board while it's happening.

what do you want from them? the typing of chants and cheers that the team won't hear?

"oh when the reds"

all you said was "c'mon guys, let's get behind our team" rather than countering their sarcastic put-downs.

it's the internet dude.

The response I just gave to Pachuco, is basically my answer to this, so I would direct your eyes there. :D

- Scott

[Sonny Cheeba]

The response I just gave to Pachuco, is basically my answer to this, so I would direct your eyes there. :D

- Scott

well you can be sarcastic without "getting off" it's a way of dealing with frustration as a supporter when all you can do it sit and watch at home.

[S_D]

I agree 100%...with Carver fired, Mo has to hire someone else... how do we know that the next guy will be better than Carver if its Mo who does the hiring?.... will we end up with another coach that preaches "just fire it up the field and maybe we'll get a break" or "just throw the ball into the box and maybe we'll get a head on it" ...fuckin useless.

ha thank goodness that would be Mo's problem not ours.

The coach would have to come from an organisation or culture that believes in posession football. Easier said than done though.

[drewski]

I also think this year's starting lineup features a lot of new faces, and as such, Carver should be given a fair shake to get them playing at the top of their game. Five games isn't enough time to judge our true form. Last year proved that, with our great start, and then woeful play all through the summer.

agreed whole heartedly. it takes time to learn a new system and new teammates.

[Darlofletch]

Why do we have to treat the team like it's some kind of sacred cow? Even religions let people be critical.

Na-na na-na na-na na-na, Leader!
Na-na na-na na-na na-na, Leader!

Leader!
Leader!
Leader!

Is that better. Am I supportive enough now?

[Yohan]

agreed whole heartedly. it takes time to learn a new system and new teammates.
why do some teams have this problem and others dont?

just take for example, Chivas. their newcomers have integrated into their team and are effectively in weeks, not year that TFC players need

[drewski]

why do some teams have this problem and others dont?

just take for example, Chivas. their newcomers have integrated into their team and are effectively in weeks, not year that TFC players need


i can't speak to other teams rosters & roster moves cause I don't know them well enough. I also haven't watched better (in terms of records) teams play so I don't know if their record is due to great play or a bunch of lucky breaks

[Pachuco]

i can't speak to other teams rosters & roster moves cause I don't know them well enough. I also haven't watched better (in terms of records) teams play so I don't know if their record is due to great play or a bunch of lucky breaks

Well Seattle had 11 new players on the field when they played us, and they beat us 2-0 at home ;)

[Arnie Knows]

TFC are pl;aying like a bunch of Dumb Cunts and I think they need a coaching and manager change

[BFin]

Contribution of the day. ^^

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

TFC are pl;aying like a bunch of Dumb Cunts and I think they need a coaching and manager change


no they dont

[TFC USA]

Some of you guys missed the whole point of this thread.

All I asked was when would your patience run out with this team? Instead of trying to turn it into an interesting debate on your views on the team and how long you would give them, some of you (you know who you are) turned it into a "true fan" or "true supporter" deal.

It pisses me off that so many threads turn into that type of nonsense.


I even clarified that IF Toronto FC continue this AWFUL run of mediocre football, then would your patience run out and say it's time for CHANGE?! I'd be scared to think what would happen if some of you had George W. Bush as Prime Minister.

"Give him 4 years and maybe he'll turn the corner."


It's a simple question, don't question my fandom. It's not needed here and I'm tired of dealing with this every god damn week.

[RedWookie]

Like the chant says, Toronto Till I Die.

Either you support them now in the rough times or you don't. Don't just hop on the bandwagon when TFC is in it's prime.

Look at the leafs, packed stadium all the time and when is the last time they brought home the cup?

Come on chums, keep the spirits high around here

[Toronto_Bhoy]

Some of you guys missed the whole point of this thread.

All I asked was when would your patience run out with this team? Instead of trying to turn it into an interesting debate on your views on the team and how long you would give them, some of you (you know who you are) turned it into a "true fan" or "true supporter" deal.

It pisses me off that so many threads turn into that type of nonsense.


I even clarified that IF Toronto FC continue this AWFUL run of mediocre football, then would your patience run out and say it's time for CHANGE?! I'd be scared to think what would happen if some of you had George W. Bush as Prime Minister.

"Give him 4 years and maybe he'll turn the corner."


It's a simple question, don't question my fandom. It's not needed here and I'm tired of dealing with this every god damn week.

This message board has become a breeding ground for the nonsense TFC USA is talking about hence many original members no longer post or even visit.

The football IQ has dropped dramatically over the last 18 months…sad…

To answer the original question…at the end of this home stand…at that point we'd be a third of the way through the season…

[TFC USA]

This message board has become a breeding ground for the nonsense TFC USA is talking about hence many original members no longer post or even visit.

The football IQ has dropped dramatically over the last 18 months…sad…

To answer the original question…at the end of this home stand…at that point we'd be a third of the way through the season…


Is it nonsense? Maybe.

But I'm tired of this "we're going to be alright" crap instead of people realizing what is going on right now.

It's an easy question. If we continue this run with minimal results, will you end your thoughts of this team being "new"? Would your patience with Carver or Mo or Barrett run out to the point where it's time for an obvious replacement.

When the water is leaking from the ceiling you don't just wait for the roof to cave in. That's my opinion but I respect yours.

[Fushida]

TFC are pl;aying like a bunch of Dumb Cunts and I think they need a coaching and manager change

lol :noidea:

[trane]

This message board has become a breeding ground for the nonsense TFC USA is talking about hence many original members no longer post or even visit.

The football IQ has dropped dramatically over the last 18 months…sad…

To answer the original question…at the end of this home stand…at that point we'd be a third of the way through the season…

Are you saying what you are seeing on the filed is not shite football, and that we have not seen shite football for a while?

[Brooker]

WOW you guys just won't stop making threads about this stuff.

Mo Johnston? I won't call for his head any time in the near future. I like him.... i love the way he trades and drafts.

if you want to fire Mo, you have to replace him with somebody.... and I honestly wonder how fast we could find somebody as good as him.

as for Carver? I give him the full season.... Unless we are doing so bad we make the Galaxy look like a success.

[TFC USA]

Mo is great at finding young talent.

However, Andy Welsh, Kevin Goldthwaite, Kevin Harmse, Andrea Lombardo, Jeff Cunningham, Carlos Ruiz, no DP, and right now Rohan Ricketts, nullify him being on my good list.

[Kooper]

Mo is great at finding young talent.

However, Andy Welsh, Kevin Goldthwaite, Kevin Harmse, Andrea Lombardo, Jeff Cunningham, Carlos Ruiz, no DP, and right now Rohan Ricketts, nullify him being on my good list.

Wynne, Edu, Cronin, Frei, Ibby, Attakora and White put him on my good list. Some of the picks were obvious, Cronin and Frei, others were hard to find, Attakora and Ibby. But Mo made the trades to get the draft picks or prospect by trading away the players you disliked.

Mo traded Goldwaite getting Dunnivant that got us allocation money for Dero. That sounds like some good work as Dunnivant is a step up from Goldwaite.

Using that allocation money and all the allocation money built up over the past 2 years Mo traded Julius James who Mo Drafted 9th for Dero. Well done.

Ibby was traded for a conditional pick in 2010. Sounds good to me.

Edu was a great first round pick picked a head of other good prospects who have not made any impact. He was then transfered to Rangers for 5million that we hope the team will use to put in grass.

Wynne was picked up in a trade back when we had nothing of value to offer.

Frei was picked up for the rights of a player that never stepped foot on our pitch: Brian McBride. He was basically free and all MO had to do is submit a form to the league calling 'dibs'.

Obain White was picked up with a first round pick in a trade that got us Chad Barrett ( I know you hate him) for McBride again a player that didn't play 1 minute for us or cost us a penny.

For all the crap trades mo made the ones you listed many were free: Andy Welsh, Harmse (4th round pick, almost free), Rickets, Lombardo. Granted they took up space on our roster but who on the bench would replace them.

Given the very little he had to work with we have a team of good young players with a strong set of coaches, Winsper, and veterans, Dichio, DeRo, Robinson and Sutton who will help them develop. He has done exactly what he needed to do with an expansion team. Build through youth and the draft.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

Mo is great at finding young talent.

However, Andy Welsh, Kevin Goldthwaite, Kevin Harmse, Andrea Lombardo, Jeff Cunningham, Carlos Ruiz, no DP, and right now Rohan Ricketts, nullify him being on my good list.


Goldthwaite wanted out of Toronto...so Mo moved his ass out...
Harmse is allright ...Lombardo sucked no question ...Ricketts
will be fine....DP we DONT NEED one.

[TFC USA]

How have the mods not banned you even once?

You never even attempt to justify your opinions while you just spew out the same rhetoric (DeRo is past it, Harmse is alright, Ricketts will be fine). Take off your rose-colored glasses because you have been proven wrong over and over again. I dare anyone of you (and to make things better I'll also look) to look at your posts since May 2008 and list the things you haven't been remotely accurate on or just say because you want to say it.

Enough already man. Give us well-reasoned and attempt or give the illusion you know what you're talking about.

I don't know you so I have nothing personal, but as a Toronto FC fan you offer nothing to the table. No decent set of statistics, and when we do find a decent set of statistics either you don't reply or just regurgitate exactly what you said but move a few words around.

I had to get that off my chest. I am sorry I had to do this. But I can't take this anymore.

[Pachuco]

How have the mods not banned you even once?

You never even attempt to justify your opinions while you just spew out the same rhetoric (DeRo is past it, Harmse is alright, Ricketts will be fine). Take off your rose-colored glasses because you have been proven wrong over and over again. I dare anyone of you (and to make things better I'll also look) to look at your posts since May 2008 and list the things you haven't been remotely accurate on or just say because you want to say it.

Enough already man. Give us well-reasoned and attempt or give the illusion you know what you're talking about.

I don't know you so I have nothing personal, but as a Toronto FC fan you offer nothing to the table. No decent set of statistics, and when we do find a decent set of statistics either you don't reply or just regurgitate exactly what you said but move a few words around.

I had to get that off my chest. I am sorry I had to do this. But I can't take this anymore.

Man you are so right! I've actually typed out much worst then this but then I gave it a second thought before I pressed submit. This guy is a classic Troll.

[Roogsy]

For the record, Mighty has indeed been banned before.

And so that everyone is aware, we are getting a substantial number of complaints about the boards since the loss. We are trying to be understanding in realizing that everyone, including ourselves, are frustrated by the team. But if things do not cool off, there will be infractions and bans issued on a wider basis.

Everyone should be keeping this in mind.

[AL-MO]

Guys, we have something called the ignore feature for a reason.

Please use it.

Signed,

The Mods

[TFC USA]

Again, sorry about that. I'm just so disgruntled with dealing with this troll. Ignore or no ignore he's still a troll.


Back to the topic at hand. I'm giving Carver one more chance. Beat the Crew on May 2nd and he wins me over for life. :)

[nfitz]

My point is that a "real fan" doesn't get off on making fun of his own team during a gameTrue. But I wouldn't think real fans would be reading a discussion forum during the middle of the game. Half-time perhaps, but in the middle of the game?

[Shakes McQueen]

True. But I wouldn't think real fans would be reading a discussion forum during the middle of the game. Half-time perhaps, but in the middle of the game?

Those of us with our TV's in the same room as our computer certainly do. :D I like to comment on things as they happen, just like you might with your friends at a home game.

I will give Carver until about the 1/3rd point of this season, to get these guys playing the kind of football we know they are capable of. If they are still looking uncreative and listless by then, I will absolutely advocate a major change in team direction.

I also think it's clear that Mo HAS to get us another CB in the summer transfer window. The rumour from Ives is that he's aiming to do just that, but if he makes promises and doesn't deliver like last summer with Paul Dickov, my confidence in him will be shaken too.

This isn't an expansion team anymore. Our roster, on paper, should be able to deliver more than they have so far. Being an eternally patient supporter (made that way by years of supporting Arsenal :D), I'm not willing to demand sweeping change yet. But like I said, if things aren't looking significantly better by the 10th-12th game, it's time to look at a change in direction for the club.

Last year, I didn't believe Carver had enough talent to work with, which is why I didn't advocate firing him. Our attacking options were non-existent, and our defense was terrible. This year, he has been given a plethora of proven veterans, surprisingly capable rookies, and a technically gifted South American striker with a potentially huge upside. I'm willing to give him time to get these new elements to gel, and to figure out an ideal strategy, but I'm not willing to watch another entire season of poor results pass us by.

I support our team, and I have faith in Carver's abilities (if you think it's unfounded, fine). But I'm not a blind follower in the Carver cult of personality. If our defense is weak, then our defense is weak - but that doesn't excuse our lack of coherent OFFENSE from week two onwards. Carver (and the players) have to answer for this, if it doesn't improve.

- Scott

[Cashcleaner]

For me, as a Sunderland fan who has experienced many, many years of horrendous football, some of the best fans I have ever met are those that complain and protest against management. They are the true passionate fans, always dedicated to the cause. When game day comes, they get behind the team 100%, but when the whistle blows they let management know their true feelings. These are the real fans.

Needed repeating.

The thing is that people have to understand the difference in terminology between team, individual players, management, and ownership.

You really can criticize those different components separately. I've got plenty of loyalty toward my team. That team of course is Toronto FC. But because I'm loyal to the team, does that mean the owners are off-limits to criticism? Does that mean one or two poorly performing players don't get the opinion that I believe they deserve? Of course not.

I believe that Toronto FC is a team with great potential that is let down by a very small number of underacheiving or just poorly-skilled players, led by a manager who has been made redundant by the head coach, and bankrolled by a corporation that doesn't seem all that interested in taking any significant risks at improving things with the team. The team gets all my heart - not the boardroom dwellers at the ACC or the guys who don't want to be there or who aren't putting in the effort that they should be.

[Oldtimer]

Guys, we have something called the ignore feature for a reason.

Please use it.

Signed,

The Mods

The ignore feature does not work because whole threads get formed based on a few acrid comments, and the same people troll every thread. You lose the context, and people end up quoting giambac and pals anyway.

[MUFC_Niagara]

AS others have said it has nothing to do with results, it has to do with the leve of play of the team, we have been a terrible team for the most part since the early part of last year. How much more do we need to see. I like Carver as a man, I like what Carver says his vision for the team is, but he has had enough time to deliver. If he does not deliver soon, not in terms of results but of play, then it will become obvious to me that a change has to be made.

I think everyone is just getting a little frustrated that some posters don't just offer constructive critiscm, they go over the top and complaint about the same thing over and over and over again and just when you think you've heard the same complain 6,000 times they post the same thing again. When the team puts in a poor performance everyone knows it and we don't need the same 4 or 5 people on here telling us after each game how terrible we were when clearly the majority of the people on here watch the matches!

[MUFC_Niagara]

The ignore feature does not work because whole threads get formed based on a few acrid comments, and the same people troll every thread. You lose the context, and people end up quoting giambac and pals anyway.

+1.....but we have and are starting pre/post and in game threads for each game in the members thread. That group of 4 or 5 that troll each thread are registered users. I suggest you use the members area chat if you are as fed up as I was because they can't get in there. The pre-game Chivas chat has actually been enjoyable because its in the members area.

[Pachuco]

Geeze I can't imagine how good a discussion on a forum can be if everyone is making love and no one disagrees. My personally, I like the threads where there are disagreements because in some cases it makes me see things I didn't see before.

[Jack]

The ignore feature does not work because whole threads get formed based on a few acrid comments, and the same people troll every thread. You lose the context, and people end up quoting giambac and pals anyway.
It's about the most comprehensive ignore feature we can get :)

That said, there's another, even better ignore feature available to all of us.

It's called our brains!

[koryo]

My threshold with the team will break when we get relegated... three times.

My threshold with some of stupidity on this board broke months ago.

[spezz44]

Its match day, can we tunr down the negative and start looking at some more postives, like come on.

[Pachuco]

Agreed. Probably time to close the thread. It's Game Day!!!

[scooter]

[quote=Toronto Gunner;481947]TFC are my home team and I will continue to support them no matter how they do. The problem with Toronto sports fans is that we love to hate our sports teams. The dallas game (at home) was an exciting game, yes we should have won it, but it was still an exciting game and our team showed a lot of promise and played some good football. The next day, all I hear in the papers and on these boards is how sh*t we are and how we need to fire half of the team and coaching staff. It's pathetic.

If you don't love TFC, don't go to the games, don't visit these boards, and don't tell me about it because I don't want to hear it. It's okay to throw out the occasional "Man Barrett sucks", or "Dichio is too damn slow"; we're passionate about our club and sometimes you get disappointed with a particular player. To put down your team and ask a question like "when will you stop supporting them" is bandwagon talk and a clear sign that you're not a real supporter.

I don't mean this as a personal attack and I acknowledge that this thread was started as a discussion piece and not one person's opinion, but this is something I'm hearing a lot of lately and I think it's time that those who don't love their team sell off the remainder of their season seats and hop on the next hot bandwagon. I hear that you can get lacrosse tickets fairly cheap.

+2 :drinking::drinking:

[Rocco]

i'm not gonna even bother reading the posts..cuz it's Toronto till I die. I lived here most of my life, I prayed for the day we would have a soccer team. Win or loose, it's Toronto till I die.

[trane]

^ Wanting change does not mean, that we has stopped supporting TFC. Why is that not clear, why do peopel see it as a contradiction.

[Rocco]

i try to understand how it's not a contradiction. If you truly support someone, you'll have blind faith in their judgement. You may call it ignorance.... I call it encouragement. If we keep on pointing out all the negatives and show our disatisfaction every chance we get, it won't do the team much good. It's like your mother naging you to go to school when ur a kid. The more she nags, the less u want to go.

[fetajr]

http://www.stars-productions.com/AR/_come/bob-goldthwait.jpg

[trane]

Rocco,

Do you support management, Mo and Carver ,or TFC? To support someone means that you "have blind faith in their judgement"? What are we a Carver/Mo cult? We are supporters of a football team, a football team that we want to succeed. I am sorry but your type of support seem to be a receipy of perpetual failure. I am not trying to be insulting, but seriously if you never push for better, why would you get better?

[Pachuco]

i try to understand how it's not a contradiction. If you truly support someone, you'll have blind faith in their judgement. You may call it ignorance.... I call it encouragement. If we keep on pointing out all the negatives and show our disatisfaction every chance we get, it won't do the team much good. It's like your mother naging you to go to school when ur a kid. The more she nags, the less u want to go.

Except your example would prove we are right in nagging. I mean, unless you are trying to say mothers aren't right in telling their kids to go to school.

[spezz44]

i hope we win this to shut everyone up for a while, same shit day in day out, stop whinning its match day support your team, if we loose then complain after.

[TFC USA]

We've been not winning for going on 1 month. We have a right to complain. We've been down this road before and I want to see it stopped quickly.

I do hope we win so we can celebrate something for once.

[trane]

^ You should just keep having "blind faith in their judgement", and things will be alright.

[Rocco]

Rocco,

Do you support management, Mo and Carver ,or TFC? To support someone means that you "have blind faith in their judgement"? What are we a Carver/Mo cult? We are supporters of a football team, a football team that we want to succeed. I am sorry but your type of support seem to be a receipy of perpetual failure. I am not trying to be insulting, but seriously if you never push for better, why would you get better?

the flaw in ur argument is that you consider Mo and Carver as not part of the team. They are as any player, part of the team. If the team performs badly, should we fire the water boy, the towel boy, the trainers and equipment managers as well? U can argue and say they don't impact the game play but if you think about it, they do impact the team's performance. Anything that impacts the team is part of the team. We are part of the team as we are the fans, the supporters and the followers. It's either ur with th team or against it. You can't pick and choose in a team.


edit: it's not us that need to push for better. We're not n the field. it's the competitors that need to push for better. Our job is to watch and clap. Why is this such a challange to most of you?

[trane]

^TFC is more then any one player and one person. Is AC Milan Beckham, because he is playing there now, or is Beckham the LAG. Players, managers, coaches, managment, come and go, TFC is beyond that. The club is more characterized by its supporters and what it represtens then anyone that works or plays for it.

[Darlofletch]

the flaw in ur argument is that you consider Mo and Carver as not part of the team. They are as any player, part of the team. If the team performs badly, should we fire the water boy, the towel boy, the trainers and equipment managers as well? U can argue and say they don't impact the game play but if you think about it, they do impact the team's performance. Anything that impacts the team is part of the team. We are part of the team as we are the fans, the supporters and the followers. It's either ur with th team or against it. You can't pick and choose in a team.

So, extreme example, if we lost every single game for the next 5 years, of course you'd still turn up, but would you start to think that we should try something/somebody different?

if you answer yes (and for your sake i really really hope you would), then you also have a threshold that can be broken. The question, and what this thread is suposed to be about is, when is that threshold for you?

For me, I'd say after the 2 home voyageur cup games, we'll have played a few league games and 2 cup games, most of them at home, if things haven't picked up significantly by then, it's time for a change.

[Rocco]

but given the powers to be, they are part of it now and they are trying to do better. I honestly find it hard to believe that someone like JC is trying to loose games on purpose. I agree I would like to see improvement but keep in mind that the minute the game starts, the coach is just a specator. Like u, like me, like anyone. Keep in mind the players decide wether or not follow his plays and tactics. The management will always be critsized when we loose, and praised when we win, no matter who's coaching. I ask all the supporters and fans to have a little faith. No one forces you to watch TFC or MLS in general.

To me it's clear, it's either that i'm the stands every game or I just do something else. I choose to watch the games, follow the teams, cheer them on. I choose to look at the team as a whole and not point fingers. See the minute fingers start pointing, the whole teamwork thing looses its essence. Look Trane, it's either you're with them or against them. Very clear, very simple.

[trane]

^ No it is not that simple. I am with TFC , but what is happening right now is not good for TFCs now or their future.

[Arnie Knows]

PLease llok at other two teams the comapny owns and decide for yourself how good they are at Producing winner..

[Pachuco]

but given the powers to be, they are part of it now and they are trying to do better. I honestly find it hard to believe that someone like JC is trying to loose games on purpose. I agree I would like to see improvement but keep in mind that the minute the game starts, the coach is just a specator. Like u, like me, like anyone. Keep in mind the players decide wether or not follow his plays and tactics. The management will always be critsized when we loose, and praised when we win, no matter who's coaching. I ask all the supporters and fans to have a little faith. No one forces you to watch TFC or MLS in general.

To me it's clear, it's either that i'm the stands every game or I just do something else. I choose to watch the games, follow the teams, cheer them on. I choose to look at the team as a whole and not point fingers. See the minute fingers start pointing, the whole teamwork thing looses its essence. Look Trane, it's either you're with them or against them. Very clear, very simple.

We are going in circles, but this is where you guys and us guys disagree the most. I can support the team and want change, that's very simple to me. I choose to watch the games too, and cheer them on and follow them. Maybe more then you even do, who knows. But for the umptienth time, just because I support the team doesn't mean I can't come on a message board and vent.

[fetajr]

i would love a win...but its hard considering TFC is just kicking the ball up the field hoping for breaks

[Rocco]

So, extreme example, if we lost every single game for the next 5 years, of course you'd still turn up, but would you start to think that we should try something/somebody different?

yes :p

Why is it the coaches that always gotta go when things go wrong? When you're giving the same group of guys who just don't know how to find a win, any coach you give them is gonna have the same results.

I fear that i've deviated from the original topic. In means of not hijacking this thread, lets get back to the topic. My threshold is irrelevent to the sucess of the team.

[Nuvinho]

My threshold will break when the Leafs win the cup!!!

[Rocco]

you guys


what do you mean YOU PEOPLE?

hahahahahaha

[Pachuco]

what do you mean YOU PEOPLE?

hahahahahaha

You people who call the ones that disagree with you none supporters ;)

[billyfly]

Why can't TFC just win a bunch of games and make the playoffs so we can stop this negative shit?

I'd be so much more happier if they won games and so would everyone else.

[mclaren]

yes :p

Why is it the coaches that always gotta go when things go wrong? When you're giving the same group of guys who just don't know how to find a win, any coach you give them is gonna have the same results.

I fear that i've deviated from the original topic. In means of not hijacking this thread, lets get back to the topic. My threshold is irrelevent to the sucess of the team.

A coach DOES make a difference. International football is a good example. Take England. Pretty similar group of players but widely different results achieved by Steve McClaren and Fabio Capello. A good coach can implement better tactics and get the most from players.

[Oldtimer]

It's about the most comprehensive ignore feature we can get :)

That said, there's another, even better ignore feature available to all of us.

It's called our brains!

I try, but it's too much...

My brain hurts!

http://www.physd.amu.edu.pl/%7Emagik/pics/gumby1.jpg

[trane]

A coach DOES make a difference. International football is a good example. Take England. Pretty similar group of players but widely different results achieved by Steve McClaren and Fabio Capello. A good coach can implement better tactics and get the most from players.


Football is one game were the coach realy does make the difference. [ The other "football" as well]

[TFC USA]

I don't know if "bumping" is allowed (I was looking for something and found this), but it's safe to say my threshold has officially broken.

[Roogsy]

In terms of buying tickets or supporting...for me there is no threshold. I have been a Leaf fan all my life. I have the endurance of an Ethiopian marathon racer.

But my good-nature (:p) and patience has a limit.

[Boudge]

We only sing when we are winning
We only sing when we are winning
sing when we are wiiiiiiining!
we only sing when we are winning!

The team will feel our wrath on these boards... but come gameday... I am part of those who consider themselves the 12th man... We have a job to do... and that is to support our team and make BMO Field the most intense stadium to play at... You don't like it... go boo at a Raptors game... this thing ain't for you.


BOH!

:scarf:

[Shep]

This is not meant to be a personal attack on anyone, but it's generally directed to users here who think that getting the torches lit for an angry mob after "2.2 years" is too quick.

When will your threshold break? If TFC continues to play like this, mediocre football, not bad enough to be the Crew but not good enough for a playoff spot, when will your patience run out?

EDIT: By patience I mean you're saying screw it and calling for the heads of Carver, Mo, the players, etc.

Please give me your reasoning on this. :)


I'm not setting a deadline on my support, and I don't want to dwell on this crap.

We need to get off this negative thread trend.

[Roogsy]

I'm not setting a deadline on my support, and I don't want to dwell on this crap.

We need to get off this negative thread trend.

True.

I am tired of feeling negative myself.

I have said my piece. I have shown my frustration. Back to doing whatever we can to get this team back on track.

As I said before, I look in awe at the suffering Newcastle supporters. Despite HORRIBLE management, they support their team. I feel comradery with them.

[Boudge]

MTL is not imppossible

2 by DeRo
1 by Brennan
1 by Robinson

I believe!

[Roogsy]

I may make the trip to Montreal just to show my support. Despite the impossible odds...stranger things have happened.

[TFC USA]

MTL is not imppossible

2 by DeRo
1 by Brennan
1 by Robinson

I believe!


Fuck that.








Velez nets 3 and Barrett scores the winner.

[jloome]

Fuck that.








Velez nets 3 and Barrett scores the winner.

...and when everyone gets back to Toronto, natural grass has mysteriously swamped the fieldturf at BMO.

[Roogsy]

...and when everyone gets back to Toronto, natural grass has mysteriously swamped the fieldturf at BMO.

:lol:

To dreeeeeeeeeeeeam the impossible dreeeeeeeeeeeam...

[trane]

I would love that to happen. It would not just be about one game if it happens it could easily be the be the turning of a corner. A corner we need to turn. So Alez.

[Beach_Red]

This is not meant to be a personal attack on anyone, but it's generally directed to users here who think that getting the torches lit for an angry mob after "2.2 years" is too quick.

When will your threshold break?

As long as the team has the same captain it did in the first season, then it's still an expansion team.

Should it still be an expansion team?

[trane]

^ We should be considered an expansion team untill year five. Did you not get the memo?

[Beach_Red]

^ Right, I forgot, it's a league rule, isn't it....

[trane]

^ That is what MLSE told me, so I beleive it.

[nimamalek]

I say if we dont make the playoffs or win the Canadian championship by the time the White Caps come in the league we all switch and become White Cap fans :) I dont want to be a MLSE cash cow, the worst thing that could happen to us is if we turned into Leaf fans.

[Juanito]

^^

I'm not trying to call anyone out. I have ranted like a drunken sailor on this forum, on FARCEbook, and on other media when they play badly. I don't think this is a playoff team, and if so, they'll just squeeze in and get booted out. However, I'm not quitting on them, no matter how pissed I get, and I don't believe that changing a coach half-way is a good idea. If Cummins can not get his shit together by the end of the year, and show us something, then he has to go. However, we probably should all understand that we can't assume another manager will just step in and magically change everything around. Personalle changes would have to be made, maybe even at the top. All this would mean that that first year would be a re-building year.

Point is, we should all be patient. I make the mistake too many times of watching European footie and then watching TFC, which makes me even more prone to blowing a gaskett when they play like crap!!

[greatwhitenorf]

A shame people don't realize the black hole Canadian soccer is just emerging from over the past two decades. Blizzard games at Varsity Stadium used to be terrific. The league crumbled in the early '80s and serious pro soccer had been absent until MLS and TFC brought it back.

Like any Leafs fan, I've learned that if my team isn't doing well, I can still go to games and enjoy the sport and the capable players we do get to see and chat about the game with people who are equally into it.

I'm glad the pro game has returned to us and that it is getting better coverage in the media than ever before. In years ahead, I think we'll all be pleased and proud of what TFC represents and the role soccer plays in the Canadian sports scene.

[Maple Leaf Red]

Man. I gave up after year one when the team didn't win the Supporters' Shield and the MLS Cup. It's clear that no one cares about winning since they didn't just sign all of the world's biggest stars to play in the MLS.

[billyfly]

My feelings are best described through a part of "The Muppets" theme song...

Why do we always come here?
I guess we'll never know
It's like a kind of torture
To have to watch this show


(sung by the 2 old guys in the balcony)

[jloome]

My feelings are best described through a part of "The Muppets" theme song...

Why do we always come here?
I guess we'll never know
It's like a kind of torture
To have to watch this show


(sung by the 2 old guys in the balcony)

To introduce a DP
is what Mo's here to do
and it really feels quite crappy
it wasn't in year two!

Wasn't in year two!