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boysblue
04-20-2009, 08:57 PM
All the seats are full. Thousands more are on the season ticket waiting list. The concessions and souvenir stands are bustling each and every week.

Ah, life is good for the money boys at MLSE corporate.

Yet a loyal and passionate fan base grows increasingly unhappy with poor performances, unfulfilled promises and the feeling that perhaps they are being taken for granted.

Is the MLSE modus operandi being played out on TFC and its fans, just as it was for years at the ACC, or am I just being paranoid? Frankly, I am worried that a touch of "contentedness" has crept into Mo, Mr. Anselmi and their bosses at MLSE. After all, why bother to do anything in a hurry....the seats are full, thousands more and on the season ticket waiting list and the concession and souvenir stands bustle.

Just you watch!

Parkdale
04-20-2009, 09:02 PM
... or am I just being paranoid?

http://www.ilovebonnie.net/tinfoil-hat.jpg




how about this as a kink in your logic.....

if the team does well, they will make MORE money.
In almost all sports, playoff games are big freaking bucks.
Winning the cup means your ratings go up, AND that means
more money though advertising and sponsorship.

If they are truly all about making money, wouldn't they want to make the most possible?

dclaro
04-20-2009, 09:03 PM
leafs have the highest paid GM and coach in the NHL, if not one of the highest, the've been constantly one of the highest spending teams before the cap era and even with the cap they're still spending to the limit, except for this year since this is a rebuilding year. mlse spends the money on the leafs.
As for tfc, no one knows if mlse hasn't given mo the green light to spend dp money or not, or how much. but they have given tfc all the latest in tech and coaching support.

mlse is NOT cheap

boysblue
04-20-2009, 09:07 PM
http://www.ilovebonnie.net/tinfoil-hat.jpg




how about this as a kink in your logic.....

if the team does well, they will make MORE money.
In almost all sports, playoff games are big freaking bucks.
Winning the cup means your ratings go up, AND that means
more money though advertising and sponsorship.

If they are truly all about making money, wouldn't they want to make the most possible?


One would think so, and your logic is sound. Yet history shows that this corporation is content to aspire to mediocrity as long as the coffers are full. Sure, if they happen to win all the better, but the bottom line with MLSE is the bottom line.

Parkdale
04-20-2009, 09:11 PM
Sure, if they happen to win all the better, but the bottom line with MLSE is the bottom line.

just like any business. they didn't bring a team to Toronto out of the kindness of their heart and generosity.

boysblue
04-20-2009, 09:18 PM
leafs have the highest paid GM and coach in the NHL, if not one of the highest, the've been constantly one of the highest spending teams before the cap era and even with the cap they're still spending to the limit, except for this year since this is a rebuilding year. mlse spends the money on the leafs.
As for tfc, no one knows if mlse hasn't given mo the green light to spend dp money or not, or how much. but they have given tfc all the latest in tech and coaching support.

mlse is NOT cheap


Yes, the Leafs NOW have the highest paid GM in the league, but prior to Mr. Burke they had the lowest (JFJ). It was only the fury of fans (and some in the media) along with the realization that Mr. Peddie's hiring of JFJ was a complete fuck up that compelled the drastic change in direction. Oh, and the fact that unsold seats were turning up for virtually the first time in the team's history.

The Leafs should have been one of the highest spending teams in the pre-cap era....they had far more money to work with that anybody. In fact, it was only the last couple of pre-cap seasons where MLSE (perhaps bullied and cajolled by Pat Quinn??) starting shelling out serious dough.

You are correct though, nobody has any idea of the cash Mo has at his disposal. History tells me they will let things go on the same way until they are absolutely forced by outraged supporters to act.

Shakes McQueen
04-20-2009, 09:21 PM
One would think so, and your logic is sound. Yet history shows that this corporation is content to aspire to mediocrity as long as the coffers are full. Sure, if they happen to win all the better, but the bottom line with MLSE is the bottom line.

No, history would show that the Raptors were a good team two seasons ago, and made the NBA playoffs last season. Another MLSE owned franchise, paying huge money for their GM.

It would also show that they paid out the ass to get a good GM for the Leafs this season, and routinely spend right to the NHL cap limit.

The Leafs are the result of years of bad scouting, drafting, and trading.

MLSE exists to make money, obviously. But MLSE also understand that successful sports franchises make them more money. At the end of the day, what do we care what their motivation to win is?

And furthermore, while the corporate goal might be to make as much money as possible, it doesn't mean they don't employ people to manage those franchises, who have a passion to win (ie. Brian Burke, Bryan Colangelo, and Carver, whatever you might think of his skills as a coach).

- Scott

dclaro
04-20-2009, 09:22 PM
Yes, the Leafs NOW have the highest paid GM in the league, but prior to Mr. Burke they had the lowest (JFJ). It was only the fury of fans (and some in the media) along with the realization that Mr. Peddie's hiring of JFJ was a complete fuck up that compelled the drastic change in direction. Oh, and the fact that unsold seats were turning up for virtually the first time in the team's history.

The Leafs should have been one of the highest spending teams in the pre-cap era....they had far more money to work with that anybody. In fact, it was only the last couple of pre-cap seasons where MLSE (perhaps bullied and cajolled by Pat Quinn??) starting shelling out serious dough.

You are correct though, nobody has any idea of the cash Mo has at his disposal. History tells me they will let things go on the same way until they are absolutely forced by outraged supporters to act.
correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't the canadian dollar pretty crap in the pre cap era, and if anything mlse is slow at change, change does happen it just takes a while, they give their people a chance to prove themselves, which i prefer rather than the constant firing a team like the sens constantly have

TFCREDNWHITE
04-20-2009, 09:23 PM
Harlod Ballard ex leafs owner said openly/publicly why spend more when the Gardens is full to capacity, Their's no point.....something to that effect anyways...

Ladies Love Julius James
04-20-2009, 09:24 PM
Brilliant thread. Glad other people are starting to notice. Raptors have made it out of first round once since 95. The leafs, minus a few fiery years, still cupless, TFC....too early to call.

See the trend though, one of the few cities that continuously support teams that perform below par.

boysblue
04-20-2009, 09:25 PM
Correct, Parkdale. And I certainly don't begrudge them a tidy profit. In fact, my future depends on it.

Wonder how much they will pocket this season with a $3 million salary cap in effect (is it $3 mill? I think so but am not entirely certain), and 20,000 kicking down the doors at $50 per. Should be a healthy return, no? Meanwhile, a neophyte GM who has nicely snuggled up to his bosses at MLSE either refuses to spend money on a DP (or has not been given the money to spend). Either way, I think it is a mistake.

Shakes McQueen
04-20-2009, 09:27 PM
Yes, the Leafs NOW have the highest paid GM in the league, but prior to Mr. Burke they had the lowest (JFJ). It was only the fury of fans (and some in the media) along with the realization that Mr. Peddie's hiring of JFJ was a complete fuck up that compelled the drastic change in direction. Oh, and the fact that unsold seats were turning up for virtually the first time in the team's history.

The Leafs should have been one of the highest spending teams in the pre-cap era....they had far more money to work with that anybody. In fact, it was only the last couple of pre-cap seasons where MLSE (perhaps bullied and cajolled by Pat Quinn??) starting shelling out serious dough.

You are correct though, nobody has any idea of the cash Mo has at his disposal. History tells me they will let things go on the same way until they are absolutely forced by outraged supporters to act.

They've had Colangelo running the Raptors for a few years now, another HIGHLY paid GM, who has as much control over his team, as Burke now has with the Leafs.

- Scott

TFCREDNWHITE
04-20-2009, 09:29 PM
Here's one of Ballard being convicted on fraud charges...I wouldn't put anything past Peddie or Tannenbaum either those two rub me the WRONG way!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNfcDyNJDwg

Shakes McQueen
04-20-2009, 09:31 PM
Here's one of Ballard being convicted on fraud charges...I wouldn't put anything past Peddie or Tannenbaum either those two rub me the WRONG way!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNfcDyNJDwg

What does stuff Harold Ballard said or did, have to do with MLSE?

- Scott

dclaro
04-20-2009, 09:31 PM
Harlod Ballard ex leafs owner said openly/publicly why spend more when the Gardens is full to capacity, Their's no point.....something to that effect anyways...
i think the problem is that after the ballard stuff, toronto fans are suspicious of their owners, when in reality toronto's owners arent that bad, mlse's money mangement brings stability to the franchises they own, and ted rogers lost money on the jays in trying to make them a winning team but he had a lot of civic pride.

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-20-2009, 09:33 PM
All the seats are full. Thousands more are on the season ticket waiting list. The concessions and souvenir stands are bustling each and every week.

Ah, life is good for the money boys at MLSE corporate.

Yet a loyal and passionate fan base grows increasingly unhappy with poor performances, unfulfilled promises and the feeling that perhaps they are being taken for granted.

Is the MLSE modus operandi being played out on TFC and its fans, just as it was for years at the ACC, or am I just being paranoid? Frankly, I am worried that a touch of "contentedness" has crept into Mo, Mr. Anselmi and their bosses at MLSE. After all, why bother to do anything in a hurry....the seats are full, thousands more and on the season ticket waiting list and the concession and souvenir stands bustle.

Just you watch!


what you said might be all true....but reality in sports is...

a) it takes time to build a contending team from scratch
b) fans cannot expect anything else but poor results in a teams
first few seasons, expect playoffs and Cup wins is not realistic
c) the fans are not being taken for granted, just the fans expectations
for this season were way to high...a good .500 season would be an
improvement...and staying in the playoff picture would happen with
that type of season...
d) the club itself has to stop trading off younger talent for 3o year old
veterns who are long in the tooth..dont cave into the fans wishes
that just makes things worse...as 2009 might just prove.

is it good that fans are unhappy...yes...we dont want to be like Leaf fans
and just accepting fate year after year..decade after decade...but we need patience as the club builds...lets keep the major complaints till after
5 seasons have passed then judge the management team then.

boysblue
04-20-2009, 09:41 PM
They've had Colangelo running the Raptors for a few years now, another HIGHLY paid GM, who has as much control over his team, as Burke now has with the Leafs.

- Scott


Shakes. Have to start by telling you that my son loves your name and thinks you the best poster on these boards.

The Raptors were on the verge of going the way of the Vancouver Grizzlies (bye, bye), so Colangelo was brought in out of absolute necessity. To try and restore some respectability and hope to a dwindling and disgruntled fan base.

If only 10,000 sunscribe for next season a DP will be in here in a flash. This organization is all about maximizing profits (and I appreciate and accept that). Winning is secondary. And unless fans stand up and are heard TFC will settle into the same mediocrity that has plagued both the Leafs and the Raptors.

SweetOwnGoal
04-20-2009, 09:42 PM
The current era of MLSE started in about 1998 (and really gained power in the early ‘00s). Just using the NHL as an example (because it was cap-less up until ’04-05)...

The Leafs payroll:

98/99 -$34.0 US million (7th highest)
99/00 - $34.0 (8th)
00/01 - $42.4 (6th)
01/02 - $48.7 (7th)
02/03 - $54.3 (7th)
03/04 - $61.8 (5th)

The payroll went up every year and they were in the top ¼ of spending teams ever year but one.

Could you break down how MLSE is cheap for me? (note – there is a difference between being bad with money and being cheap)

TFCREDNWHITE
04-20-2009, 09:43 PM
Do TFC players get to use these ACC facilities??

if not, how long until they get their own MTV Cribs Place!!??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ30SDNqKf8&feature=related

boysblue
04-20-2009, 09:55 PM
Sweet.

Thanks for digging up that data.

Two men walk past a homeless man on the corner of Jarvis and Church. The first man gives the beggar $20. The second man gives the beggar $20 as well. Who is the cheap man?

The first guy is. Know why? The guy is a Bay Strreet banker who pulls in 500K, while the second guy cleans the bank's windows and makes 50K. It is all relative. That MLSE (by far the most profitable franchise in the NHL in each of the seasons you cited) was only 6th or 7th in payroll spending is an absolute travesty. This is especially true when one takes into consideration the loyalty and passion of their fan base. MLSE should have been the NHl's top spending franchise in each of those season's and should have had the best coach/GM as well. A healthy profit would have still been made, and if you chose to follow the logic of the very first fellow who responded to me on this thread, play-off receipts would have more than offset these increased expenditures.

This is how MLSE is not only frugal (and wise), but "content".

Phil
04-20-2009, 09:57 PM
What does stuff Harold Ballard said or did, have to do with MLSE?

- Scott

Exactly. Its pretty easy for 1 owner to make stupid decisions. MLSE is much more than one person. It may be disfunctional at times but conspiracy for failure is way harder.

Lets stop the trolling posts TFCREDNWHITE.

H Bomb
04-20-2009, 09:58 PM
MLSE simply doesnt have a history of accepting mediocrity. It's not there.

billyfly
04-20-2009, 09:59 PM
what you said might be all true....but reality in sports is...

a) it takes time to build a contending team from scratch
b) fans cannot expect anything else but poor results in a teams
first few seasons, expect playoffs and Cup wins is not realistic
c) the fans are not being taken for granted, just the fans expectations
for this season were way to high...a good .500 season would be an
improvement...and staying in the playoff picture would happen with
that type of season...
d) the club itself has to stop trading off younger talent for 3o year old
veterns who are long in the tooth..dont cave into the fans wishes
that just makes things worse...as 2009 might just prove.

is it good that fans are unhappy...yes...we dont want to be like Leaf fans
and just accepting fate year after year..decade after decade...but we need patience as the club builds...lets keep the major complaints till after
5 seasons have passed then judge the management team then.

What would you have us do?? Run off and support another team like you?

Spare me Mighty.

boysblue
04-20-2009, 10:01 PM
MLSE simply doesnt have a history of accepting mediocrity. It's not there.


Shouldn't you be out looking for players, Mo.

dclaro
04-20-2009, 10:03 PM
The current era of MLSE started in about 1998 (and really gained power in the early ‘00s). Just using the NHL as an example (because it was cap-less up until ’04-05)...

The Leafs payroll:

98/99 -$34.0 US million (7th highest)
99/00 - $34.0 (8th)
00/01 - $42.4 (6th)
01/02 - $48.7 (7th)
02/03 - $54.3 (7th)
03/04 - $61.8 (5th)

The payroll went up every year and they were in the top ¼ of spending teams ever year but one.

Could you break down how MLSE is cheap for me? (note – there is a difference between being bad with money and being cheap)
forbes seems to have higher numbers than those where did u get that

TFCREDNWHITE
04-20-2009, 10:04 PM
Exactly. Its pretty easy for 1 owner to make stupid decisions. MLSE is much more than one person. It may be disfunctional at times but conspiracy for failure is way harder.

Lets stop the trolling posts TFCREDNWHITE.

What!? u make no sense...:noidea:

Kickit09
04-20-2009, 10:06 PM
http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/picture.php?albumid=199&pictureid=1338

dclaro
04-20-2009, 10:06 PM
leafs averaged 1.9 million a game last year in ticket sales, god only knows how much they would get per game in a playoff run, with the incredibly high tv ratings leafs get, mlse could easily get another 20 million with a run to the finals, they know this and they want this too.

scut farkus
04-20-2009, 10:07 PM
This is a salary capped league. A DP's salary hits the cap at about $400k. The cap is at something like $2.3mil. Taking a player that eats up 1/5th of space...on top of other team staples...might just not make sense in John & Mo's plans. It's a matter of opinion if a DP is worth it.
I don't think TFC's recent play can be blamed on MLSE trying to make a few extra bucks. Chill out!

Kickit09
04-20-2009, 10:17 PM
This is a salary capped league. A DP's salary hits the cap at about $400k. The cap is at something like $2.3mil. Taking a player that eats up 1/5th of space...on top of other team staples...might just not make sense in John & Mo's plans. It's a matter of opinion if a DP is worth it.
I don't think TFC's recent play can be blamed on MLSE trying to make a few extra bucks. Chill out!


we have 4 players that make $300,000+ (dero, vitti, guevara, robinson). so get rid of one of those (like vitti) and for only $100,000 more we have a DP. so don't tell me the salary cap is preventing us from getting a DP. and someone worth DP status and money would be better than any of those 4.

K1nG
04-20-2009, 10:18 PM
The current era of MLSE started in about 1998 (and really gained power in the early ‘00s). Just using the NHL as an example (because it was cap-less up until ’04-05)...

The Leafs payroll:

98/99 -$34.0 US million (7th highest)
99/00 - $34.0 (8th)
00/01 - $42.4 (6th)
01/02 - $48.7 (7th)
02/03 - $54.3 (7th)
03/04 - $61.8 (5th)

The payroll went up every year and they were in the top ¼ of spending teams ever year but one.

Could you break down how MLSE is cheap for me? (note – there is a difference between being bad with money and being cheap)

Now what you really should have done was add a second table with statistics based on the Leafs overall rank with respect to earnings per year. Im pretty sure they were in the top two profit wise each year. I say that because I know they are up there with the NYR.

When Colorado had their runs they had Sakic, Forsberg and Roy. Detroit had Yzerman, Federov and Lidstrom. Leafs on the otherhand had who? If Gilmour has that supporting cast he could have brought home a cup. And can you justify MLSE raising the price of Leafs tickets while rebuilding during a reccession?

Whoever said it above me was right.. if BMO had only 10,000 per game.. we'd have had our DP by now.

K1nG
04-20-2009, 10:21 PM
Sweet.

Thanks for digging up that data.

Two men walk past a homeless man on the corner of Jarvis and Church. The first man gives the beggar $20. The second man gives the beggar $20 as well. Who is the cheap man?

The first guy is. Know why? The guy is a Bay Strreet banker who pulls in 500K, while the second guy cleans the bank's windows and makes 50K. It is all relative. That MLSE (by far the most profitable franchise in the NHL in each of the seasons you cited) was only 6th or 7th in payroll spending is an absolute travesty. This is especially true when one takes into consideration the loyalty and passion of their fan base. MLSE should have been the NHl's top spending franchise in each of those season's and should have had the best coach/GM as well. A healthy profit would have still been made, and if you chose to follow the logic of the very first fellow who responded to me on this thread, play-off receipts would have more than offset these increased expenditures.

This is how MLSE is not only frugal (and wise), but "content".

i only read your post now (after i replied)

my hero.

boysblue
04-20-2009, 10:21 PM
This is a salary capped league. A DP's salary hits the cap at about $400k. The cap is at something like $2.3mil. Taking a player that eats up 1/5th of space...on top of other team staples...might just not make sense in John & Mo's plans. It's a matter of opinion if a DP is worth it.
I don't think TFC's recent play can be blamed on MLSE trying to make a few extra bucks. Chill out!


Chill out! LOL. OK.

You guys keep on defending MLSE. They love supporters like some of you.

History tells me that with fan apathy medicority will run amok at BMO field. Hope I am wrong though.

Shakes McQueen
04-20-2009, 10:25 PM
Now what you really should have done was add a second table with statistics based on the Leafs overall rank with respect to earnings per year. Im pretty sure they were in the top two profit wise each year. I say that because I know they are up there with the NYR.

When Colorado had their runs they had Sakic, Forsberg and Roy. Detroit had Yzerman, Federov and Lidstrom. Leafs on the otherhand had who? If Gilmour has that supporting cast he could have brought home a cup. And can you justify MLSE raising the price of Leafs tickets while rebuilding during a reccession?

Whoever said it above me was right.. if BMO had only 10,000 per game.. we'd have had our DP by now.

All that proves is that the Leafs have had inept management. It does nothing to prove that they are cheap in any way, shape or form.

Which takes me back to my original post - the Leafs' situation is the result of bad scouting, drafting and trading. Not sinister, cheap owners (post-Ballard, anyway).

- Scott

billyfly
04-20-2009, 10:27 PM
I am a born and raised Torontonian who has "lived and died" with all of Toronto's teams.

This thread is trying to tell me that since I attend games and buy merchandise, somehow MLSE, Rogers etc do not make the correct player decisions or don't spend money where they could to bring me a winner.

There is no evidence to support that money is the problem.

boban
04-20-2009, 10:29 PM
Sweet.

Thanks for digging up that data.

Two men walk past a homeless man on the corner of Jarvis and Church. The first man gives the beggar $20. The second man gives the beggar $20 as well. Who is the cheap man?

The first guy is. Know why? The guy is a Bay Strreet banker who pulls in 500K, while the second guy cleans the bank's windows and makes 50K. It is all relative. That MLSE (by far the most profitable franchise in the NHL in each of the seasons you cited) was only 6th or 7th in payroll spending is an absolute travesty. This is especially true when one takes into consideration the loyalty and passion of their fan base. MLSE should have been the NHl's top spending franchise in each of those season's and should have had the best coach/GM as well. A healthy profit would have still been made, and if you chose to follow the logic of the very first fellow who responded to me on this thread, play-off receipts would have more than offset these increased expenditures.

This is how MLSE is not only frugal (and wise), but "content".
Somebody finally gets how MLSE operates.
I will add some things though. I wouldn't necessarily say they would have to be the top spender in salaries in each of those years (player contract terms on opposing teams in a given year coupled with inflation have an effect), but I will say they should have never been less than 3 or 4th highest, and definitely some of those time the top spender.
Also someone mentioned that MLSE would make more money making the playoffs and going deep. True. But first you need to spend more to bring the superstars in, but then a deep run is not guaranteed. It requires risk. And we all know MLSE is all about making the lowest risk possible. They just are not about making high risk investments. Ergo, they are content with what they make. If it ain't broke don't fix it.

boysblue
04-20-2009, 10:29 PM
It doesn't tell you they were intersted in hoarding profits?

The team that sat #1 on the profitability list (by a healthy margin too) only sat #6 or 7 on the payroll list, and you think this doesn't signal an intent to maximize profits, fan base be damned? OK.

K1nG
04-20-2009, 10:30 PM
All that proves is that the Leafs have had inept management. It does nothing to prove that they are cheap in any way, shape or form.

Which takes me back to my original post - the Leafs' situation is the result of bad scouting, drafting and trading. Not sinister, cheap owners (post-Ballard, anyway).

- Scott

if you are cool with the leafs earning the most and spending the seventh or eights most (pre-cap days) then you are a contributing factor to the leafs demise. take baseball, the yankees for example. highest earners, highest spenders, silverware and trophies to accompany. leafs are the yankess of hockey with respect to earning but not spending and hense no silverware. justify that sir.

boban
04-20-2009, 10:32 PM
I am a born and raised Torontonian who has "lived and died" with all of Toronto's teams.

This thread is trying to tell me that since I attend games and buy merchandise, somehow MLSE, Rogers etc do not make the correct player decisions or don't spend money where they could to bring me a winner.

There is no evidence to support that money is the problem.
Sure there is. The highest number of NHL players come from its very own backyard - Ontario. Yet the team can't draft if their life depended on it. They lack the number of scouts and quality of scouts to find these players.
You need to pay people to find these players.

billyfly
04-20-2009, 10:32 PM
^ NYR suck and they spend a lot.

TFCREDNWHITE
04-20-2009, 10:32 PM
if you are cool with the leafs earning the most and spending the seventh or eights most (pre-cap days) then you are a contributing factor to the leafs demise. take baseball, the yankees for example. highest earners, highest spenders, silverware and trophies to accompany. leafs are the yankess of hockey with respect to earning but not spending and hense no silverware. justify that sir.


BOO-YAH!!!! +1

TFCREDNWHITE
04-20-2009, 10:33 PM
^ NYR suck and they spend a lot.

Not for long!

The knicks suck right now too, but not for long...

dclaro
04-20-2009, 10:35 PM
if you are cool with the leafs earning the most and spending the seventh or eights most (pre-cap days) then you are a contributing factor to the leafs demise. take baseball, the yankees for example. highest earners, highest spenders, silverware and trophies to accompany. leafs are the yankess of hockey with respect to earning but not spending and hense no silverware. justify that sir.
overpaid-underachieving over the hill players, example, owen nolan(cost us brad boyes), bryan mccabe, ron francis(well past his prime), phil housley

billyfly
04-20-2009, 10:35 PM
Sure there is. The highest number of NHL players come from its very own backyard - Ontario. Yet the team can't draft if their life depended on it. They lack the number of scouts and quality of scouts to find these players.
You need to pay people to find these players.

Please show me the Leaf Scouting dept staffing numbers in relation to other teams in the last 10 years.

How do you know?

boysblue
04-20-2009, 10:36 PM
Comparing the Leafs to the Yankees is a logical one. To me it simply makes sense that the organization that makes the most money should also spend the most money, or be damned clo$e to the top of the list.

Can you imagine the reaction in the Bronx (or at Old Trafford, Ibrox or Parkhead) if their clubs wallowed in medicority as the Leafs have?

Billy. Sorry to tell you but the corporation that owns and operates your beloved Toronto sports franchises would like to give you a winner to support, but not at any cost.

billyfly
04-20-2009, 10:37 PM
Not for long!

The knicks suck right now too, but not for long...

So how do you know that the Leafs and Raps won't?

The Knicks spent shit loads of money on the players that brought them into the depths of the NBA.

Shakes McQueen
04-20-2009, 10:37 PM
Chill out! LOL. OK.

You guys keep on defending MLSE. They love supporters like some of you.

History tells me that with fan apathy medicority will run amok at BMO field. Hope I am wrong though.

I see what you did there. Insinuating that the people who don't agree with you are just apologist zombies. Very crafty.

We aren't actively defending MLSE, so much as we are pointing out the gaping holes in your logic.

People have pointed out to you that the Leafs are routinely in the top 1/4 of spenders in the NHL, and all you did was say that the fact that they weren't number one in spending was a "travesty". That is literally your entire argument, because everything eles refutes your basic assumptions.

MLSE employs one of the highest paid GM's in the NBA, and one of the highest paid GM's in the NHL. The Leafs routinely spend right to the cap since the lockout (save for this past season, for rebuilding reasons). The Raptors routinely spend to the NBA's soft cap, and have made the playoffs several times since their inception.

These are all facts. Even your complaint about "only" being in the top 1/4 of spenders in the NHL pre-cap, if it were valid, has nothing to do with what they spend today.

Blaming everything on the corporate bogeyman is just too easy.

- Scott

billyfly
04-20-2009, 10:38 PM
Comparing the Leafs so the Yankees is a logical one to make. To me it simply makes sense that the organization that makes the most money should also spend the most money, or be damned clsoe to the top of the list.

Can you imagine the reaction in the Bronx (or at Old Trafford, Ibrox or Parkhead) if their clubs wallowed in medicority as the Leafs have?

Billy. Sorry to tell you but the corporation that owns and operates your beloved Toronto sports franchises would like to give you a winner to support but not at any cost.

Those clubs would not spend anymore money if people did not show up. They'd spend lots less.

boysblue
04-20-2009, 10:42 PM
Those clubs would not spend anymore money if people did not show up. They'd spend lots less.


Exactly. So if lots of people show up--as they do for the Leafs, Raptors and TFC--shouldn't they spend alot more?

Shakes McQueen
04-20-2009, 10:43 PM
Comparing the Leafs so the Yankees is a logical one to make. To me it simply makes sense that the organization that makes the most money should also spend the most money, or be damned clsoe to the top of the list.

Can you imagine the reaction in the Bronx (or at Old Trafford, Ibrox or Parkhead) if their clubs wallowed in medicority as the Leafs have?

Billy. Sorry to tell you but the corporation that owns and operates your beloved Toronto sports franchises would like to give you a winner to support but not at any cost.

The Yankees play in a league without a salary cap!

And the Leafs didn't "wallow in mediocrity" pre-cap. They made the playoffs several times in the 90's and early 2000's, and made it to the conference final one year.

This idea that MLSE should just start spending cash like drunken sailors (much like the Yankees do) to essentially buy success for their fans every year, is insane. You do understand that the Yankees payroll is like 300% higher than virtually any team in MLB?

You're right, MLSE won't buy a winner at any cost, much like 99.98% of professional sports teams in the world. They have to have some measure of financial prudence.

- Scott

boysblue
04-20-2009, 10:45 PM
Forgive me for expecting that the team that makes the most money should actually try and reward their supporters (who allow them to make all this money) by spending the most money. I guess your "logic" had me confused there for a moment.

billyfly
04-20-2009, 10:47 PM
In summation I'd like to say I do not love the ORG we refer to as MLSE. I do love the colours of my beloved teams.

I do think that as a business, MLSE is run prudently and profitably. I do think the board does ask questions and assigns operating budgets to each arm based on many factors just like any other business.

It pains me to see young kids in Toronto sporting other team's shirts. I just am not convinced it is as easy as blame profit considerations at MLSE.

menefreghista
04-20-2009, 10:48 PM
People do realize that if it wasn't for MLSE, TFC wouldn't even exist. They took the initial risk to bring an MLS team to Toronto. For that I am quite thankful.

Shakes McQueen
04-20-2009, 10:50 PM
Forgive me for expecting that the team that makes the most money should actually try and reward their supporters (who allow them to make all this money) by spending the most money. I guess your "logic" had me confused there for a moment.

THERE IS A SALARY CAP.

- Scott

boysblue
04-20-2009, 10:50 PM
As I said, I don't begrudge MLSE a tidy profit on any of their sporting endeavours. Without profit teams would fold up. Yet, despite the lip service they might pay it, MLSE will--and has--accept mediocrity as long as the the fans will accept it and the profits pile up. When the staus quo is challenged, as it was with the Raptors a couple of years back and with the Leafs last year, then they will respond.

Will the same happen to TFC?

AL-MO
04-20-2009, 10:51 PM
I get what you are saying about the similarities between the Leafs and TFC. MLSE is a profit driven business so this is no surprise. (but so are most clubs out there these days)

I do not think this will turn into a Leafs situation though. For the one simple reason; that the Supporters will not stand for it. Already there is a great deal of unrest on all of the boards regarding this team. WHAT will happen? I don't know but people are starting to get pissed. Many members of this group are getting tired of a team that puts out terrible performances week in and week out. We try to stay positive hoping things will turn around, but its just not happening. Personally I am giving this team a few more games before I write them off. (I haven't even been able to attend a game this year at BMO yet! ;))

The Leafs have the ability to continue to raise prices as they know their STHs will pay it no matter what. This includes corporations, scalpers and long time STHs. This model will not work with TFC. If tickets are no longer reasonable for supporters, I don't believe they will continue to show up in the numbers they currently do. If MLSE is foolish enough to not recognize who drive this club,(The Supporters - whether affiliated or otherwise) and continue to raise prices in the manner they are doing well then they are sealing their own fate. All this talk from people who come to games about the atmosphere will disappear like a fart in the wind.

And If some success is not seen sometime soon, the 'common fan' (guy who takes his kid out for a game) will get disinterest in this.

Anyway my 2 cents. Not an MLSE backer, I just think this situation is a bit different.

dclaro
04-20-2009, 10:51 PM
according to forbes, debt\value(debt as a percentage of team value):
leafs 35%
yankees 77%
manchester united 54%
chelsea 92%
when compared how much there revenue was, leafs were the only ones amoung those teams that had their debt less than their revenue, good to know my team isn't running a ridiculous debts

AL-MO
04-20-2009, 10:53 PM
according to forbes, debt\value(debt as a percentage of team value):
leafs 35%
yankees 77%
manchester united 54%
chelsea 92%

Holy Fuck!

boysblue
04-20-2009, 10:55 PM
Teams can exceed the NBA salary cap if they want, albeit with financial penalty.

An NHL cap was only imposed a couple of years ago.

As for TFC, There is no cap on the salary of a GM, a coach, a coaching staff or a scouting department. I don't know how mcuh they spend on the non-player portion of their club but I bet it does not befit their profits. Typical MLSE.

boysblue
04-20-2009, 11:00 PM
I get what you are saying about the similarities between the Leafs and TFC. MLSE is a profit driven business so this is no surprise. (but so are most clubs out there these days)

I do not think this will turn into a Leafs situation though. For the one simple reason; that the Supporters will not stand for it. Already there is a great deal of unrest on all of the boards regarding this team. WHAT will happen? I don't know but people are starting to get pissed. Many members of this group are getting tired of a team that puts out terrible performances week in and week out. We try to stay positive hoping things will turn around, but its just not happening. Personally I am giving this team a few more games before I write them off. (I haven't even been able to attend a game this year at BMO yet! ;))

The Leafs have the ability to continue to raise prices as they know their STHs will pay it no matter what. This includes corporations, scalpers and long time STHs. This model will not work with TFC. If tickets are no longer reasonable for supporters, I don't believe they will continue to show up in the numbers they currently do. If MLSE is foolish enough to not recognize who drive this club,(The Supporters - whether affiliated or otherwise) and continue to raise prices in the manner they are doing well then they are sealing their own fate. All this talk from people who come to games about the atmosphere will disappear like a fart in the wind.

And If some success is not seen sometime soon, the 'common fan' (guy who takes his kid out for a game) will get disinterest in this.

Anyway my 2 cents. Not an MLSE backer, I just think this situation is a bit different.



Al-No.

A logical post, I think. And frankly, this is what I was hoping was starting to happen...that TFC supporters would not meekly take the MLSE party line as Leaf fans have for years, cuz MLSE is, at the end of the day, only interested in the bottom line.

boban
04-20-2009, 11:00 PM
The Yankees play in a league without a salary cap!

And the Leafs didn't "wallow in mediocrity" pre-cap. They made the playoffs several times in the 90's and early 2000's, and made it to the conference final one year.

This idea that MLSE should just start spending cash like drunken sailors (much like the Yankees do) to essentially buy success for their fans every year, is insane. You do understand that the Yankees payroll is like 300% higher than virtually any team in MLB?

You're right, MLSE won't buy a winner at any cost, much like 99.98% of professional sports teams in the world. They have to have some measure of financial prudence.

- Scott
Why defend them at every turn?
Nobody is suggesting they lose money, but why hoard it?

Also, you do realize you are talking about one of the glorious franchises in the hockey world and in all of sport in NA? Seriously, try using your logic and arguments in Barcelona, Real Madrid, Man U, Liverpool, Bayern Munich, etc. They would have your head on a platter - and the owners.
It amazes me that over 40 years and no championship and people like you defend mediocrity and complacency of this organization to no end.
:(

boban
04-20-2009, 11:02 PM
I just am not convinced it is as easy as blame profit considerations at MLSE.
Buddy trust me, it's all and nothing but the money for this group.

Shakes McQueen
04-20-2009, 11:02 PM
So now you're criticizing MLSE, based on the money they spend on non-player personnel/infrastructure, while openly admitting that you don't have the foggiest clue what they spend on those things?

Alright, I'm done banging my head against this wall. He's just repeating the same shit over and over, and not refuting what we are saying.

- Scott

Shakes McQueen
04-20-2009, 11:05 PM
Why defend them at every turn?
Nobody is suggesting they lose money, but why hoard it?

Also, you do realize you are talking about one of the glorious franchises in the hockey world and in all of sport in NA? Seriously, try using your logic and arguments in Barcelona, Real Madrid, Man U, Liverpool, Bayern Munich, etc. They would have your head on a platter - and the owners.
It amazes me that over 40 years and no championship and people like you defend mediocrity and complacency of this organization to no end.
:(

ALL OF THOSE TEAMS PLAY IN LEAGUES WITHOUT A SALARY CAP!

And it's also worth mentioning that most of them are up to their tits in over-leveraged debt, existing on a financial house of cards, due precisely to overspending on players.

And I'm not defending "mediocrity" and "complacency". I'm defending "logic" and "facts". Don't be an ass.

- Scott

AL-MO
04-20-2009, 11:05 PM
Buddy trust me, it's all and nothing but the money for this group.

But its the same for everyone! Noone would be in the Sports business if they couldn't make a buck off of it.

You think Glazer bought Man United, and Hicks and Gillett bought Liverpool because of their love of the game and willingness to win?

Its all about the $$$$.

dclaro
04-20-2009, 11:06 PM
Why defend them at every turn?
Nobody is suggesting they lose money, but why hoard it?

Also, you do realize you are talking about one of the glorious franchises in the hockey world and in all of sport in NA? Seriously, try using your logic and arguments in Barcelona, Real Madrid, Man U, Liverpool, Bayern Munich, etc. They would have your head on a platter - and the owners.
It amazes me that over 40 years and no championship and people like you defend mediocrity and complacency of this organization to no end.
:(
40 years not all were mlse, in european soccer the gap between top spender and bottom spender is 100's of million, not 10 of millions like the nhl

Shakes McQueen
04-20-2009, 11:07 PM
But its the same for everyone! Noone would be in the Sports business if they couldn't make a buck off of it.

You think Glazer bought Man United, and Hicks and Gillett bought Liverpool because of their love of the game and willingness to win?

Its all about the $$$$.

Quiet you. Stop upsetting the apple cart with your goddamned reality.

- Scott

boban
04-20-2009, 11:10 PM
ALL OF THOSE TEAMS PLAY IN LEAGUES WITHOUT A SALARY CAP!

And it's also worth mentioning that most of them are up to their tits in over-leveraged debt, existing on a financial house of cards, due precisely to overspending on players.

And I'm not defending "mediocrity" and "complacency". I'm defending "logic" and "facts". Don't be an asshole.

- Scott
Dude they haven't won a cup in 42 years and this cap is only been around for 4. :banghead::banghead:


FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

boysblue
04-20-2009, 11:12 PM
So now you're criticizing MLSE, based on the money they spend on non-player personnel/infrastructure, while openly admitting that you don't have the foggiest clue what they spend on those things?

Alright, I'm done banging my head against this wall. He's just repeating the same shit over and over, and not refuting what we are saying.

- Scott


Fair enough....as I clearly stated, "I bet it does not befit their profit". Of course I don't know, and I MAY be wong. However, I MAY be correct.

My point was that in a salary-capped league (like MLS) a wealthy team (like TFC) can use its financial resources in non-player salaries to gain an advantage. I thought you would understand.

Keep drinking the kool-aid....or try reading what myself and most of the others who have taken the time to post have warned of.

OUT!

PS Shakes. My son is 10.

boban
04-20-2009, 11:12 PM
40 years not all were mlse, in european soccer the gap between top spender and bottom spender is 100's of million, not 10 of millions like the nhl
Save for a name change they have been around since '91 (or was that '90).
But I would also argue (to a degree) that its the same old as the old man.

Shakes McQueen
04-20-2009, 11:13 PM
Dude they haven't won a cup in 42 years and this cap is only been around for 4. :banghead::banghead:


FACT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This entire argument isn't about whether the Leafs are a good team, or even a well-managed team. It's about whether MLSE are CHEAP.

And the Leafs weren't owned by MLSE for the last 42 years.

- Scott

tylerdangelo
04-20-2009, 11:14 PM
Teams can exceed the NBA salary cap if they want, albeit with financial penalty.

An NHL cap was only imposed a couple of years ago.

As for TFC, There is no cap on the salary of a GM, a coach, a coaching staff or a scouting department. I don't know how mcuh they spend on the non-player portion of their club but I bet it does not befit their profits. Typical MLSE.

Great point
non-player acquisitions and spending can benefit a team more than a dp sometimes. But like what many have said before its not a matter making money; mlse has proven they are profitable and financially stable. They just don't seem to want to spend money unless it is needed.

Shakes McQueen
04-20-2009, 11:16 PM
Fair enough....as I clearly stated, "I bet it does not befit their profit". Of course I don't know, and I MAY be wong. However, I MAY be correct.

O...kay?


My point was that in a salary-capped league (like MLS) a wealthy team (like TFC) can use its financial resources in non-player salaries to gain an advantage. I thought you would understand.

And again - you have no clue what they spend on those resources, yet you're the only one basing your assertions on those unknown expenditures. I understand completely.


Keep drinking the kool-aid....or try reading what myself and most of the others who have taken the time to post have warned of.

OUT!

PS Shakes. My son is 10.

I can't help but notice you still aren't refuting what I've said. You're just taking little digs at those of us who disagree with you.

- Scott

boban
04-20-2009, 11:19 PM
But its the same for everyone! Noone would be in the Sports business if they couldn't make a buck off of it.

You think Glazer bought Man United, and Hicks and Gillett bought Liverpool because of their love of the game and willingness to win?

Its all about the $$$$.
As has been mentioned, nobody begrudges them making a profit.
And so they should. Good for them.
The issue lies when that is all it is they seek from sports ownership.
And the boys you mentioned have not cut back on expenses despite the debt they carry. They know that fans expect something on the field of play and will not short short change them on that end.
Different story with MLSE.

boban
04-20-2009, 11:24 PM
This entire argument isn't about whether the Leafs are a good team, or even a well-managed team. It's about whether MLSE are CHEAP.
Exactly!!.. They don't spend to the limit during the non-cap years and they do not have quality scouts or numbers, and would hire cheaper managers/coaches at the drop of a dime regardless of the history of the club and its legacy.

Also, recall when ACC was opened a decade ago? First thing to go was the Easter seals skate because they wanted to use the arena to maximize use and profits. To me thats as cheap and as low as it gets. All they think about is the money - in their pockets.

boban
04-20-2009, 11:25 PM
People do realize that if it wasn't for MLSE, TFC wouldn't even exist. They took the initial risk to bring an MLS team to Toronto. For that I am quite thankful.
Yay. So let them sit on their ass and drive it into the ground???

If you look at the numbers, it wasn't much of a risk.

Cashcleaner
04-21-2009, 01:53 AM
how about this as a kink in your logic.....

if the team does well, they will make MORE money.
In almost all sports, playoff games are big freaking bucks.
Winning the cup means your ratings go up, AND that means
more money though advertising and sponsorship.

If they are truly all about making money, wouldn't they want to make the most possible?

But that's not exactly how it works though, is it? Because there is a certain degree of risk involved with the cost and benefit side of things with pro sports, building an expensive playoff contending team doesn't guarantee anything in the end when you consider how just one or two inconvenient injuries can sink an entire franchise's hopes at a trophy.

All you say above is true, but it unfortunately it's not enough in the eyes of MLSE to take a chance on making the sort of signings they should. To me that's incredibly obvious.

Nestease
04-21-2009, 02:37 AM
Where's that Edu money

Kooper
04-21-2009, 06:02 AM
Now what you really should have done was add a second table with statistics based on the Leafs overall rank with respect to earnings per year. Im pretty sure they were in the top two profit wise each year. I say that because I know they are up there with the NYR.

When Colorado had their runs they had Sakic, Forsberg and Roy. Detroit had Yzerman, Federov and Lidstrom. Leafs on the otherhand had who? If Gilmour has that supporting cast he could have brought home a cup. And can you justify MLSE raising the price of Leafs tickets while rebuilding during a reccession?


The problem with the Leafs over the past few seasons is not how much the Leafs spend but how. Until these past 2 years Leafs management and coaching have been terrified that they will be fired so they wait until the trade deadline and trade for players that will help them today by getting rid of players that will help them in the future. Coaches at the Ottawa Senators in hockey , Manchester United, Arsenal and Liverpool have some stability and are able to plan years in advance and invest in the future. Noel Gallagher has some insight check the video from 2:25 on. (NSFW)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3c7D9_Z63gs

What needs to happen is everyone on the message boards needs to relax. We need to stop criticising every little decision and thing we think is wrong and believe in the future. The biggest problem Toronto Maple Leafs have is the number of message boards and call in shows that exist only to whine about what Burke or JFJ are doing wrong. I firmly believe that the Leafs would do better if Leafs Lunch was cancelled on 640am and the fan 590 cut their Leafs coverage to games and pregame so the management can do thier job in peace.

It sucks supporting a losing team now, but if we can let the youth develop we will have a stronger team on the field with more money to spend from transfers (Edu). This year I am a bit dissapointed with the last few results but I am hopeful for the future. Mo and Carver have developped some great youth (Edu and Wynne) with some hot prosepect performing now (Frei, Cronin and Ibby) and some that are just starting out but have promise (White, Attakora and I am going to say it Chad Barrett and Marco Valez). If we demand instant gratification, fine trade some combination of these guys to Columbus for Schlotto or Dallas for Kenny Cooper but we would be giving up what could be a great future for the team.

Like them or not I think every fan would like to develop a team around a golden generation like the way Manchester United did. How good would they have been then and now if they had transfered a young David Beckham, Paul Scholes, Gary Neville and Ryan Giggs for Ian Rush or Les Ferdinand towards the end of their carrears?

Fishnicker
04-21-2009, 06:30 AM
Where's that Edu money

5 mil transfer fee. Cheque made out to MLS.

- MLS keeps 1.7 mil right off the top
- TFC gets $500,000 in allocation (mostly spent already)
- 2.8 mil sits in trust with MLS, to be released to TFC for soccer operations only. TFC must submit an acceptable business plan to MLS before they release the funds. Cannot be used in any way on players.

So it's basically asking dad (garber) if he will dip into your trust fund. Dad will say no if it's for drugs and hookers:(

Jack
04-21-2009, 06:56 AM
I will issue this warning to boysblue and anyone else making personal digs in this thread: It stops now.

Debate the points. Debate the posts and the questions. Personal insults, comments like "keep drinking the koolaid" and other such implications add nothing to the debate and if this continues we will be handing out infractions and bans.

SweetOwnGoal
04-21-2009, 06:56 AM
Where's that Edu money

A good chunk of it wears No. 14.

SweetOwnGoal
04-21-2009, 07:21 AM
Let’s compare apples to apples shall we...You want a full season DP?

TFC Attakora-Gyan Nana D $ 3 4,000.00 $ 34,000.00
TFC Barrett Chad F $ 1 95,000.00 $ 202,500.00
TFC Brennan Jim D $ 1 85,000.00 $ 193,250.00
TFC Cronin Sam M $ 3 6,000.00 $ 84,000.00
TFC DeRosario Dwayne M $ 3 57,000.00 $ 425,750.00
TFC Dichio Daniel F $ 1 20,000.00 $ 120,000.00
TFC Edwards Brian GK $ 3 9,600.00 $ 48,350.00
TFC Frei Stefan GK $ 6 5,000.00 $ 120,000.00
TFC Gala Gabe D $ 3 4,000.00 $ 34,000.00
TFC Gomez Emmanuel D $ 2 0,100.00 $ 25,850.00
TFC Guevara Amado M $ 3 00,000.00 $ 323,750.00
TFC Harmse Kevin M $ 7 9,200.00 $ 79,200.00
TFC Ibrahim Fuad F $ 7 5,000.00 $ 108,000.00
TFC Ricketts Rohan M $ 1 65,000.00 $ 165,000.00
TFC Robinson Carl M $ 3 00,000.00 $ 315,000.00
TFC Sayang Amadou D $ 3 4,008.00 $ 40,563.55
TFC Serioux Adrian D $ 1 19,070.00 $ 131,570.00
TFC Smith Johann F $ 4 5,000.00 $ 56,666.67
TFC Sutton Greg GK $ 1 57,500.00 $ 165,062.50
TFC Velez Marco D $ 6 3,000.00 $ 63,500.00
TFC Vitti Pablo F $ 2 88,000.00 $ 303,000.00
TFC White O'Brian F $ 3 6,000.00 $ 113,000.00
TFC Wynne Marvell D $ 5 7,000.00 $ 159,500.00
Cut $440,000 from that list. Although MLS teams will never reveal how much allocation they have it was widely assumed that TFC had about $1 million for 2009 (which is very high).
The cap is $2.3 million. TFC is currently paying $3,311,512.72 in salary. Do the math (and keep in mind that allocation expires. Unless they acquire more the Reds will need to dump salary in ’10).
Bringing in a DP is more than just spending the money. It’s also about fitting the player under the cap while maintaining the right balance. The LA Galaxy essentially had three DPs on the roster at the start of last season and finished second to last in the league. MLSE bashers want to paint anyone that questions their “the FO is cheap” mantra as being blinded by their loyalty to the club. Maybe. But those that keep screaming I WANT MY DP AND I WANT HIM NOW are equally blinded by the false promise of a DP.

If anything TFC’s biggest problem is that it pays too much for its players.

ensco
04-21-2009, 07:28 AM
The real issue with MLSE isn't specific to them - it's the general impact that corporate ownership has on any team.

So it's nothing personal, but I wish a sports-loving billionaire type ownership setup existed here.

menefreghista
04-21-2009, 08:04 AM
Yay. So let them sit on their ass and drive it into the ground???

If you look at the numbers, it wasn't much of a risk.

If it was up to me, Carver and Mo would be out of a job tomorrow.

If TFC's success was such a guarantee why weren't other investors lined up? Even MLSE didn't expect it to be as successful as it is.

I just think people have an anti-MLSE mentality that they are wrongly carrying over from the Leafs to TFC.

Parkdale
04-21-2009, 08:08 AM
If it was up to me, Carver and Mo would be out of a job tomorrow.

but who would replace them?

sure MLSE can dangle a really fancy carrot in front of someone, but would anyone of any quality actually bite?

I think our options would be greatly limited.

and as far as the MLSE not being ballsy enough to make changes when needed....

http://blacksportsonline.com/index/2008/12/03/p1_mitchell.jpg



^ from Coach-of-the-year to unemployment in record time.
MLSE is not afraid to cut what they see as a risk or a failure.

We'll just have to see how this whole thing plays out with Mo/Carver.

Oldtimer
04-21-2009, 08:09 AM
My question is, why do Torontonians like losers and hate winners?


Best attendance (losers):

TFC we know about.

Leafs - sellout every game

Raptors:

The New York Knicks, Los Angeles Lakers (http://www.ticketliquidator.com/tix/los-angeles-lakers-tickets.aspx), Golden State Warriors and Toronto Raptors rounded out the top 10.http://www.ticketnews.com/NBA-ticket-sales-and-attendance-great-year409201

Argos:

Just for the record, during the 2008 season the Argonauts ranked fifth in the eight team CFL in attendance (http://www.geocities.com/cfl_historical/CFL-Attendance.htm), averaging 29,189 fans per gameThat's despite the Bills coming to town.

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2009/04/18/argonauts-owner-not-happy-with-expanded-bills-presence-in-toront/


Poor attendance (winners):

Marlies:

The Marlies draw 2,200 fans at Ricoh Coliseum, on the CNE grounds, which seats 8,000.
I mean, c'mon. In a metropolis of rabid hockey fans?
http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/mike_strobel/2009/04/16/9127841-sun.html

Jays:
and for the first place baseball team in the league?


Playing their second home game of the season on April 7, the Toronto Blue Jays drew a mere 16,790 fanshttp://www.baseballdailydigest.com/blogs/2009/04/20/non-breaking-news-attendance-down/

The only exception to this rule is the Rock.

Conclusion?

Losing teams make more money in Toronto.

Kickit09
04-21-2009, 08:17 AM
but who would replace them?

sure MLSE can dangle a really fancy carrot in front of someone, but would anyone of any quality actually bite?

I think our options would be greatly limited.

and as far as the MLSE not being ballsy enough to make changes when needed....

http://blacksportsonline.com/index/2008/12/03/p1_mitchell.jpg



^ from Coach-of-the-year to unemployment in record time.
MLSE is not afraid to cut what they see as a risk or a failure.

We'll just have to see how this whole thing plays out with Mo/Carver.



MLSE didn't fire Mitchell, Colagalo did. but in the case of TFC, GMs don't fire themselves unfortunately.

Kooper
04-21-2009, 08:20 AM
TFC Cronin Sam M $ 36,000.00 $ 84,000.00
TFC Dichio Daniel F $ 120,000.00 $ 120,000.00
TFC Wynne Marvell D $ 57,000.00 $ 159,500.00

What is the difference between the 2 numbers? Which one counts to the Cap? Cronin's Salary second number is twice the first, Wynne's is three times but Dichio's is equal. Which one goes to the cap?

menefreghista
04-21-2009, 08:21 AM
but who would replace them?

Mo would probably have to be replaced in the off-season. Preferably we can use some of that TFC money to steal away won of the better minds from another MLS club.

As for Carver, considering how bad a coach he is, almost anyone would be an improvement over him.

I think Carver has til the end of the Voyageurs Cup though.

tfc007
04-21-2009, 08:26 AM
All I Can Say Maple Leaf Sports And Greed!

Arnie Knows
04-21-2009, 08:46 AM
http://www.ilovebonnie.net/tinfoil-hat.jpg




how about this as a kink in your logic.....

if the team does well, they will make MORE money.
In almost all sports, playoff games are big freaking bucks.
Winning the cup means your ratings go up, AND that means
more money though advertising and sponsorship.

If they are truly all about making money, wouldn't they want to make the most possible?


No NO sir they don"t make that much more money when they win .. A bit but not much more .. Bleed ok bleed

TFC07
04-21-2009, 08:49 AM
My question is, why do Torontonians like losers and hate winners?


Best attendance (losers):

TFC we know about.

Leafs - sellout every game

Raptors:
http://www.ticketnews.com/NBA-ticket-sales-and-attendance-great-year409201

Argos:
That's despite the Bills coming to town.

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2009/04/18/argonauts-owner-not-happy-with-expanded-bills-presence-in-toront/


Poor attendance (winners):

Marlies:
http://www.torontosun.com/news/columnists/mike_strobel/2009/04/16/9127841-sun.html

Jays:
and for the first place baseball team in the league?

http://www.baseballdailydigest.com/blogs/2009/04/20/non-breaking-news-attendance-down/

The only exception to this rule is the Rock.

Conclusion?

Losing teams make more money in Toronto.

Jays play too many games.

Marlies? Toronto isn't a hockey town; it's a Leafs town. Second tier hockey will never be supported in Toronto.

Rock? They still exist? How come Sportsnet doesn't broadcast any of Rock games anymore?

Parkdale
04-21-2009, 08:50 AM
No NO sir they don"t make that much more money when they win .. A bit but not much more .. Bleed ok bleed


think about this....

there are 15(+) home games a season. the majority of their income comes from tickets and sales of food, beer and merch at the stadium. Imagine adding another 4 games to the season. that's a big chunk of change that is pure gravy on top of their 'projected profits'.

fetajr
04-21-2009, 08:53 AM
Difference is in the management of each team:

LEAFS = BURKE
RAPTORS = COLANGELO
TFC = ASS CLOWNS

they finally got it right with the leafs and raptors after they went cheap and got fucked by shitty managers. MLSE is going through the same with MO, they will soon realize he sucks, can him, and finally get the right man for the job.

maninb
04-21-2009, 08:58 AM
think about this....

there are 15(+) home games a season. the majority of their income comes from tickets and sales of food, beer and merch at the stadium. Imagine adding another 4 games to the season. that's a big chunk of change that is pure gravy on top of their 'projected profits'.


All true...but IMO they have figured that adding a $400K DP and still not making the playoffs is too much of a risk when they can sit back, pocket the cash and have the team fail year after year, and still sell out....that's always been MLSE modus operandi...

maninb
04-21-2009, 09:01 AM
Difference is in the management of each team:

LEAFS = BURKE
RAPTORS = COLANGELO
TFC = ASS CLOWNS

they finally got it right with the leafs and raptors after they went cheap and got fucked by shitty managers. MLSE is going through the same with MO, they will soon realize he sucks, can him, and finally get the right man for the job.


Burke won 1 cup...he's hardly Scotty Bowman....Colangelo has won NOTHING and is living on his past glories...his moves with the Raptors have amounted to NOTHING...so it would seem Mo is about the same as these guys...

Arnie Knows
04-21-2009, 09:18 AM
All true...but IMO they have figured that adding a $400K DP and still not making the playoffs is too much of a risk when they can sit back, pocket the cash and have the team fail year after year, and still sell out....that's always been MLSE modus operandi...


Ahhhhh interesting

Parky are you a stockholder???
tell the truth

dclaro
04-21-2009, 11:45 AM
Burke won 1 cup...he's hardly Scotty Bowman....Colangelo has won NOTHING and is living on his past glories...his moves with the Raptors have amounted to NOTHING...so it would seem Mo is about the same as these guys...

there pedigree isn't in question, whether they suck or not isn't the point, the point is mlse is paying them a lot of money to build winners, when mo was hired no one expected the kind of success tfc had at the gates, they're going to let him try and prove himself and if he sucks they'll fire him and hire some one better

fetajr
04-21-2009, 11:58 AM
Burke won 1 cup...he's hardly Scotty Bowman....Colangelo has won NOTHING and is living on his past glories...his moves with the Raptors have amounted to NOTHING...so it would seem Mo is about the same as these guys...


its not about getting a guy who has won cups, its about getting the best guy available that (MLSE) money can buy to run the team. Burke and Colangelo are clear examples of this when the leafs and raptors needed a change. MO clearly wasn't and isn't the best manager that MLSE can get for the money that they are paying him.

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-21-2009, 12:15 PM
Difference is in the management of each team:

LEAFS = BURKE
RAPTORS = COLANGELO
TFC = ASS CLOWNS

they finally got it right with the leafs and raptors after they went cheap and got fucked by shitty managers. MLSE is going through the same with MO, they will soon realize he sucks, can him, and finally get the right man for the job.


Burke is an ass clown.....Colangelo great job he did this year:rolleyes:

TFC have the right men in charge.

fetajr
04-21-2009, 12:22 PM
Burke is an ass clown.....Colangelo great job he did this year:rolleyes:

TFC have the right men in charge.


TFC have the right men in charge if your goal is to boot the ball up and hope for the best

dclaro
04-21-2009, 12:32 PM
Burke is an ass clown.....Colangelo great job he did this year:rolleyes:

TFC have the right men in charge.

burkes gonna turn this franchise around, he did it in Vancouver in a team that struggled to spend as much as other teams in their conference, but made the playoffs, and where a force in the regular season

sully
04-21-2009, 12:35 PM
As for tfc, no one knows if mlse hasn't given mo the green light to spend dp money or not, or how much.

mlse is NOT cheap

Maybe someone else pointed it out but it's been known for a while that Mo has the go-ahead to spend the money on a DP (..and considering the amount of $s sitting on the bench, i.e. Sutton, Ricketts), he better be lining something up.

AL-MO
04-21-2009, 01:07 PM
its not about getting a guy who has won cups, its about getting the best guy available that (MLSE) money can buy to run the team. Burke and Colangelo are clear examples of this when the leafs and raptors needed a change. MO clearly wasn't and isn't the best manager that MLSE can get for the money that they are paying him.

So WHO then?

I want fucking names.

Kickit09
04-21-2009, 01:12 PM
So WHO then?

I want fucking names.


here's 5.9 billion....

ANYONE BUT MAURICE JOHNSTON

his track record is terrible. he's a failure as a coach and general manager.

and i honestly believe there are some people on this message board that would do a better job than him.

Shakes McQueen
04-21-2009, 01:16 PM
here's 5.9 billion....

ANYONE BUT MAURICE JOHNSTON

his track record is terrible. he's a failure as a coach and general manager.

and i honestly believe there are some people on this message board that would do a better job than him.

That isn't an answer. You're just re-affirming that you think Mo is doing a terrible job.

- Scott

fetajr
04-21-2009, 01:35 PM
So WHO then?

I want fucking names.


Thats what Anselmi is suppose to do

I would know where to look for a good football manager if my full-time job required it, but I can recommend a couple coaches that will surely do a better job than Carver.

Those 2 guys that the CSA passed up on for Dickhead Mitchell;
Ossie Ardiles and Rene Simoes...they both speak English and were more than willing to come to Canada.

billyfly
04-21-2009, 01:37 PM
Nelo Vingada! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelo_Vingada


That way I get free tkts and can meet the players.

fetajr
04-21-2009, 01:49 PM
Nelo Vingada! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelo_Vingada


That way I get free tkts and can meet the players.

lol...in that case, my dad!!..he's taken every house league team he's coached to the top

AL-MO
04-21-2009, 03:29 PM
here's 5.9 billion....

ANYONE BUT MAURICE JOHNSTON

his track record is terrible. he's a failure as a coach and general manager.

and i honestly believe there are some people on this message board that would do a better job than him.


Thats what Anselmi is suppose to do



You guys just did a great job avoiding the question. I am not the biggest Mo fan, but if you are going to replace him you have to have someone in mind.

Fort York Redcoat
04-21-2009, 03:57 PM
You guys just did a great job avoiding the question. I am not the biggest Mo fan, but if you are going to replace him you have to have someone in mind.

X 2,000,000

I'm betting there are ways to find who's at the end of their contracts and would consider coming to MLS. Ways that would take less time than saying "Mo Sucks" all day, every day.

and thanks to any who mention names (no matter how ridiculous).

jloome
04-21-2009, 04:33 PM
Teams can exceed the NBA salary cap if they want, albeit with financial penalty.

An NHL cap was only imposed a couple of years ago.

As for TFC, There is no cap on the salary of a GM, a coach, a coaching staff or a scouting department. I don't know how mcuh they spend on the non-player portion of their club but I bet it does not befit their profits. Typical MLSE.

When you're wrong, you're wrong. You've been totally schooled in this thread by anyone with a fact at hand; christ, show some humility and just say, "OK,maybe I was wrong." Arguing ludicrous, tangential points instead of just moving on makes you look like a child.

Damn, now I remember why I've been avoiding some of these threads since last week.

K1nG
04-21-2009, 04:54 PM
When you're wrong, you're wrong. You've been totally schooled in this thread by anyone with a fact at hand; christ, show some humility and just say, "OK,maybe I was wrong." Arguing ludicrous, tangential points instead of just moving on makes you look like a child.

Damn, now I remember why I've been avoiding some of these threads since last week.
actually boysblue has been running this thread. people need to stop being the flocks of sheep that the mlse sheppards do with as they please.

K1nG
04-21-2009, 04:55 PM
It doesn't tell you they were intersted in hoarding profits?

The team that sat #1 on the profitability list (by a healthy margin too) only sat #6 or 7 on the payroll list, and you think this doesn't signal an intent to maximize profits, fan base be damned? OK.
checkmate

jloome
04-21-2009, 05:10 PM
actually boysblue has been running this thread. people need to stop being the flocks of sheep that the mlse sheppards do with as they please.

Oookay:drinking::drinking::eek:

boban
04-21-2009, 05:14 PM
When you're wrong, you're wrong. You've been totally schooled in this thread by anyone with a fact at hand; christ, show some humility and just say, "OK,maybe I was wrong." Arguing ludicrous, tangential points instead of just moving on makes you look like a child.

Damn, now I remember why I've been avoiding some of these threads since last week.
Please enlighten us.

boysblue
04-21-2009, 05:29 PM
I will issue this warning to boysblue and anyone else making personal digs in this thread: It stops now.

Debate the points. Debate the posts and the questions. Personal insults, comments like "keep drinking the koolaid" and other such implications add nothing to the debate and if this continues we will be handing out infractions and bans.



This will be my last post on this thread and it is directed to the moderator. Respectfully, Jack, I think you were wrong in singling me out by name as the person who was making personally digs in this thread.

I raised what I think is an important issue for all members of this board and all supporters of this club. I tried to respond thoughtfully and intelligently to all those that took the time to join in the debate. If you read all my comments I think you will find this to be the case. Whether or not you agree with them is another issue entirely.

I did tell Shakes to stop "drinking the kool-aid", though I did not mean this as an attack on his character. It was used in the context of accusing him of being naive and gullible, but those are hardly serious attacks on one's character. I haven't looked back today on any response he may have had to my comment but I don't think he was offended by it (though you will have to ask him). On the other hand, my kool-aid comment came after he accused me of spouting shit, basically stating that my ideas were worthless and shitty, and caused him to want to bang his head against a wall because he couldn't get any of his common sense into my thick skull.

You tell me whose comments were more personally insulting. OUT!

Phil
04-21-2009, 05:39 PM
I will issue this warning to boysblue and anyone else making personal digs in this thread: It stops now.

Debate the points. Debate the posts and the questions. Personal insults, comments like "keep drinking the koolaid" and other such implications add nothing to the debate and if this continues we will be handing out infractions and bans.

The issue was put out to everyone. Your point is made.

Get In There
04-21-2009, 06:43 PM
When you're wrong, you're wrong. You've been totally schooled in this thread by anyone with a fact at hand; christ, show some humility and just say, "OK,maybe I was wrong." Arguing ludicrous, tangential points instead of just moving on makes you look like a child.

Damn, now I remember why I've been avoiding some of these threads since last week.

I think he makes perfect sense and is correct.

what's with the hostility...you looking for Stepford posters?

B

Pachuco
04-21-2009, 07:52 PM
What kills me is that BoysBlue makes some good points, and so does Shakes. But then you have a guy like JLoome coming into a thread where he provides absolutely no insight saying someone got schooled. WTF? are we playing basketball at recess? there is only one person that looks like a child in this thread. He gets away with it though, cause mods seem to love him.

Roogsy
04-21-2009, 07:54 PM
Not true. Everyone is being watched, boysblue, jloome, everyone.

Everyone should be pulling back and rethinking their posts.

H Bomb
04-21-2009, 07:59 PM
people actually believe this crap eh? It's funny to hear random bullshit conspiracy theories and then have those same people tell you that you're a sheep.

Hey everyone...John Carvers dad was from Toronto and left when he was a boy and because of this has always hated this place and has come here specifically to see us fail....looks at the track record...it must be true....if you don't believe me you're a sheep.

Roogsy
04-21-2009, 08:05 PM
That's enough H Bomb. You're not helping things.

And Pachuco...to add to my previous comment...if a report does not get posted, there is a good chance it can get overlooked. So if you have a problem with any post, report it. If you don't...I don't think it's fair to blame the mods. We may spend a lot of time here but not 24/7.

H Bomb
04-21-2009, 08:25 PM
there is simply no history of MLSE accepting mediocrity. to think this shows you aren't thinking well at all. they also (unlike a huge amount of people here) allow people to show their cards before kicking them out of the game. Pat Quinn was losing touch, gone, Rob Babcock failed, gone, JFJ failed, gone, but not until they had made their teams and shown them to not be good enough, over time. I'd love to hear how people have come to this irrational conclusion, other than they are rich and therefor must be an evil corporation with conscious plans to ruin our lives :noidea: :confused: :Yawn: :frown2: :frown2: :frown2:

K1nG
04-21-2009, 08:49 PM
people actually believe this crap eh? It's funny to hear random bullshit conspiracy theories and then have those same people tell you that you're a sheep.

Hey everyone...John Carvers dad was from Toronto and left when he was a boy and because of this has always hated this place and has come here specifically to see us fail....looks at the track record...it must be true....if you don't believe me you're a sheep.
that example is nothing like the facts that have been dropped in this thread.

H Bomb
04-21-2009, 08:50 PM
like what

LucaGol
04-21-2009, 09:00 PM
like what

I think their record as an organization speaks for itself.

I mean what more do you require?

A detailed dissertation complete with footnotes and references?

K1nG
04-21-2009, 09:01 PM
like what
like Toronto has consistently been by a fair margin the highest grossing club in the nhl and ... pre cap days they were never even close to the highest spending club in the nhl. why? because their failure to re-invest their fans money into a cup contender would not and did not affect the demand for their product. why? because they have a stranglehold on the hockey capital of the planet.

what about the fact that mlse refused to accept JFJs rebuilding plan and sent him away with a budget that included playoff revenue. essentially forcing his hand into such trades such as tuuka for raycroft.

oh wait that is conspiracy. well according to damien cox it is fact. do you know who damien cox is?

Pachuco
04-21-2009, 09:02 PM
like what

Ok I'll give you one example that makes me wonder that hasn't been said in this thread yet. Before people renewed their season tickets I saw numerous interviews from Mo saying this year is the year we get a DP. I also saw Carver saying he'd leave if we didn't get a DP. Well, we didn't get our DP and Carver is still here. MLSE still hasn't gone out and spent the money they said they would. It makes me wonder what their intentions were all along, sell season tickets, or actually go out and get a DP.

This isn't a post to start a conversation about whether we need a DP, the fact is, MLSE thought we did before I renewed my season tickets. They haven't delivered.

Then you have a team like Seattle go out and spend all the money they were alloted in their first year (including a DP).

These are the types of things that makes me wonder.

Boris
04-21-2009, 09:03 PM
oh wait that is conspiracy. well according to damien cox it is fact. do you know who damien cox is?

try not to insult anyone...

its how shit storms start...
if this continues the thread will be closed

K1nG
04-21-2009, 09:07 PM
try not to insult anyone...

its how shit storms start...
if this continues the thread will be closed
sorry H Bomb about the damien cox line. didnt mean to get cheeky.. its just a subject that im passionate about. i should respect your opinion. my bad.

H Bomb
04-21-2009, 09:16 PM
I think their record as an organization speaks for itself.

I mean what more do you require?

A detailed dissertation complete with footnotes and references?


real info would be good. but what use would you have with that

K1nG
04-21-2009, 09:23 PM
real info would be good. but what use would you have with that
did you happen to read his later posts? they contain real info. and that "but what use would you have with that" is a little more insulting IMO than the question about damien cox. man i would bet the farm that you work for mlse.

Boris
04-21-2009, 09:25 PM
stop the bickering and stay on topic

H Bomb
04-21-2009, 09:28 PM
man i would bet the farm that you work for mlse.


i dont, i'm just trying to get another pointless idiotic thread in this place closed...the inmates have taken over the asylum.

Phil
04-21-2009, 09:30 PM
I have had enough. This thread has totally de-railed.

Yes there is a possiblity of an MLSE controversy.

Yes there is a counter argument. Nobody is right, noboday is wrong but thread closed until we can all play like civilized children in the sandbox.

Boris
04-21-2009, 09:32 PM
you know its a good thread when 2 mods close it