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bhoybobby
04-18-2009, 06:29 PM
Guys, here's an excellent insightful article by ex Chelsea & Scotland ace, Pat Nevin on the so called state of the art pitches. Makes you wonder on what the answer truly is.

Pat Nevin: Why football's slipped up in search of a perfect pitch






Published Date: 19 April 2009
HOW OFTEN have you watched a professional footballer and wondered if he actually went to the trouble of trying out his boots before the game? While commentators delight in telling us that the same player has just fallen over for the fifth time, even ex-players of a certain vintage are quick to question the new-fangled bladed football boots or even the fact that players may be wearing certain unsuitable footwear because they are being paid to and not because they are the right ones for the job.
In actual fact the fault usually doesn't lie with the boots, the studs or the player. It is the new-style pitches that are causing even Cristiano Ronaldo to look like Bambi on ice as soon as he attempts a quick about turn.

The new-style pitches are nothing like the old ones; they are generally flat for a kick off and the better kept ones in the English Premier League maintain a deep verdant hue throughout the season. They always look fantastic on the TV and this is the root of the problem: they are built to look the part, not play the part.

The top one or two centimetres are fine generally but below that they are rock solid. It doesn't matter how long you soak the ground before the game or even at half-time, the drainage is so effective that it is back impersonating concrete 10 minutes later. For players the effect can be like trying to turn on a marble floor with blocks of wet soap on each foot.

I recently played in a charity game at the Millennium Stadium: what a fabulous piece of architecture, what an awful pitch. If there was one thing I wasn't too bad at during my playing career it was twisting and turning. I've felt more sure-footed on the ice rink in Princes Street Gardens in December than I did in Cardiff last week.

So is the answer not to water pitches before the game and pray for dry weather? The problem is that the tops of these luxuriant green oases then take on the constituency of a school playground. The balls themselves – and they are extraordinarily light these days, which accentuates the problem – bounce like the rubber 'super balls' of my youth.

Why has this happened? For a start no one has troubled himself to actually ask any players about the make up of pitches. It is generally the groundsman who decides with little more than a cursory nod to the manager. Their particular remit is to have a nice looking, hardwearing, flat surface and the modern pitches tick all those boxes. The ground staff may well be highly trained agronomists and pleased with their work, but they aren't professional footballers so they can't know there is a problem unless they are told, and there is a problem.

How many times do fans and journalists bemoan the lack of good old-fashioned, skilful, entertaining, twisting and turning dribblers? Well, let me tell you they will not be coming back any time soon if these pitches stay the same. There is no point sprinting one way then sneakily checking back if your boots, studs, medial ligament and groin muscles aren't in on the secret. It can be painful and dangerous as well as embarrassing.

What about the aforementioned Ronaldo? He isn't short of a trick or two. But his is a slalom style, with feints and dummies thrown in along the way. Fantastic stuff I agree, but if he checks sharply to change direction he is in as much danger as the rest of going head over heels and looking like a slapstick clown.

It was late in my career when these surfaces first began to appear. Liverpool's were among the first and it took me a while to find answers to the problems they set me. I knew that unless I changed my style completely I had to find a footwear solution. I did eventually, but it wasn't legal.

After a massive search I discovered some ultra thin metal Italian studs that were closer to running spikes than conventional studs. No referee would have let me within 100 metres of a pitch with those lethal looking pins, so I would show him another pair before the game then switch them in the dressing room. They were never re-checked.

I knew I was unlikely to hurt somebody during the game – I would need to tackle for that to happen and I didn't often do anything quite so rash – but it was the only way for me to ensure some purchase on the pitches.

I am convinced further problems will emerge in the fullness of time as wear and tear injuries with players kick in sooner because of the relentless pounding on these solid surfaces. Has anyone made any effort to study the long-term effects of playing and training every day on these unforgiving new pitches? The answer is no.

I asked one of the new pitch providers, why change from the old ones? The answer: "The new ones are harder wearing, easier to maintain, and rarely have games called off, so they save money. Specifically, because of the durability, they don't have that old problem of brown worn areas the length of the pitch, 10 yards wide, that stretch from one goal to the other."

I suggested putting the new system down in that particular area and leaving the rest of the pitch in the old style so that skilful trickery was still a possibility. The reaction was that he couldn't imagine any club boards these days spending extra money on frivolous, fan dancing wing play, if it negatively affected the balance sheet. I knew then and there that the game had changed forever.

Oldtimer
04-18-2009, 07:18 PM
So even grass pitches are now unplayable these days. Plays more like turf. Arrrgghhh!

How disappointing... :(

BRed
04-18-2009, 08:20 PM
Hog wash... This guy is a journalist paying attention to how every stpe he makes on the pitch is felt through his body. Even if he has played football before he is stepping on the pitch being aware more than normal about the pitch. The Premier league is more than half way through and there is no evidence to support this article.

wzhxvy
04-18-2009, 08:30 PM
Send this to Ansalami...he will add this to his list of excuses.

jloome
04-18-2009, 08:53 PM
Hog wash... This guy is a journalist paying attention to how every stpe he makes on the pitch is felt through his body. Even if he has played football before he is stepping on the pitch being aware more than normal about the pitch. The Premier league is more than half way through and there is no evidence to support this article.

No, this guy is a celebrity journalist -- a footballer. Do some research, man. The guy was a winger for Chelsea for five years, had a 20-year career as a player.

ExiledRed
04-18-2009, 09:26 PM
How many times do fans and journalists bemoan the lack of good old-fashioned, skilful, entertaining, twisting and turning dribblers? Well, let me tell you they will not be coming back any time soon if these pitches stay the same. There is no point sprinting one way then sneakily checking back if your boots, studs, medial ligament and groin muscles aren't in on the secret. It can be painful and dangerous as well as embarrassing.

So there is no twisting and dribbling going on at Anfield, but it's not a problem at at BMO?

Good point, Bob!

ExiledRed
04-18-2009, 09:31 PM
So the grassmaster pitches are reducing the quality of football across the EPL?

That must be why Premiership football is so unentertaining.

The solution must be to do away with grass and soil altogether and lay down a plastic carpet covered in silcon pellets, over compacted aggregate. Then players will be slide tackling and making quick turns all over the pitch, because it's more natural and closer to 'the old days'

It's all becoming clear now.

ExiledRed
04-18-2009, 09:35 PM
No, this guy is a celebrity journalist -- a footballer. Do some research, man. The guy was a winger for Chelsea for five years, had a 20-year career as a player.

So you'll take this guy at his word, but disregard the opinion of countless footballers over fieldturf?

jloome
04-18-2009, 09:36 PM
Heh heh, I don't know whether the knee and joint injury stats support your argument Ex, but that was funny.

jloome
04-18-2009, 09:37 PM
So you'll take this guy at his word, but disregard the opinion of countless footballers over fieldturf?

Did I say anything about his argument. Or did I comment on someone else suggesting he wasn't qualified to make it?

God, you're a fiery bastard.

Back to the Seattle game!

ExiledRed
04-18-2009, 09:51 PM
Did I say anything about his argument. Or did I comment on someone else suggesting he wasn't qualified to make it?

God, you're a fiery bastard.

Back to the Seattle game!

fiery? I'm in vallium mode right now.

No you didnt offer an opinion, but you did offer that the writer is more credible because of his experience, while there are plenty of anti-FT opinions out there from professional players that are disregarded as 'whiny superstition' by the pro fieldturf crowd. (not that you're one of them)

In Context, Bobby has posted this on here as a pro fieldturf argument, which is nonsense. I'd like to read the same writers opinion after playing ninety at BMO.

ExiledRed
04-18-2009, 09:59 PM
OK, you commented on someone else suggesting he wasnt qualified to make the argument.

It's allowed. :)

jloome
04-18-2009, 10:09 PM
Danke, obergruppenfuhrer Exiled.

you should watch the seattle chivas game. It'll remind you of the average Aberdeen v. Motherwell tilt. Very disciplined movement, lots of tough challenges, zero inspiration so far.

jloome
04-18-2009, 10:10 PM
The second I post that, Chivas scores.
Unreal.

Blizzard
04-18-2009, 10:14 PM
The second I post that, Chivas scores.
Unreal.

Yes but it was a Sounders own goal so your points still stand.

ExiledRed
04-18-2009, 10:16 PM
Danke, obergruppenfuhrer Exiled.

you should watch the seattle chivas game. It'll remind you of the average Aberdeen v. Motherwell tilt. Very disciplined movement, lots of tough challenges, zero inspiration so far.

I'm watching it. I have two monitors

bhoybobby
04-19-2009, 12:46 PM
Hog wash... This guy is a journalist paying attention to how every stpe he makes on the pitch is felt through his body. Even if he has played football before he is stepping on the pitch being aware more than normal about the pitch. The Premier league is more than half way through and there is no evidence to support this article.

Check out who he is before you shoot his opinion down

bhoybobby
04-19-2009, 12:47 PM
Danke, obergruppenfuhrer Exiled.

you should watch the seattle chivas game. It'll remind you of the average Aberdeen v. Motherwell tilt. Very disciplined movement, lots of tough challenges, zero inspiration so far.

That's funny, that kind disciplined movement & tough challenges would probably got us a result against Seattle

bhoybobby
04-19-2009, 12:51 PM
fiery? I'm in vallium mode right now.

No you didnt offer an opinion, but you did offer that the writer is more credible because of his experience, while there are plenty of anti-FT opinions out there from professional players that are disregarded as 'whiny superstition' by the pro fieldturf crowd. (not that you're one of them)

In Context, Bobby has posted this on here as a pro fieldturf argument, which is nonsense. I'd like to read the same writers opinion after playing ninety at BMO.

Actually, I'm not pro field turf. I'm flexible in changing my point of view based on the evidence. Clearly the stuff at BMO isn't the best & isn't maintained to a decent pristine standard. I'd love a grass field, but the odds of it happening soon are zilch

I'm just wondering what kinda grass field we should get, state of the art, or something else, Niven raises some interesting points. He played at the highest level, knows what he's talking about. Just sharing an educated perspective on the issue.

As for TFC & BMO, grass would be preferable, but our team's performance isn't turf related, it's talent related right now

Beach_Red
04-19-2009, 01:10 PM
Actually, I'm not pro field turf. I'm flexible in changing my point of view based on the evidence. Clearly the stuff at BMO isn't the best & isn't maintained to a decent pristine standard. I'd love a grass field, but the odds of it happening soon are zilch

I'm just wondering what kinda grass field we should get, state of the art, or something else, Niven raises some interesting points. He played at the highest level, knows what he's talking about. Just sharing an educated perspective on the issue.

As for TFC & BMO, grass would be preferable, but our team's performance isn't turf related, it's talent related right now

You pretty much answer your own question - if we get a grass field it will likely be at the same "level" as the turf we have, certainly not state of the art. Which, as the article shows, might not be a bad thing.

And as for your final point, there's still some debate if our team's performance is due to lack of talent (in relation to the other MLS teams) or if we're not using the right tactics for the players we have. Either way, we hope for better performances than we saw the last two games.

ExiledRed
04-19-2009, 01:23 PM
Actually, I'm not pro field turf. I'm flexible in changing my point of view based on the evidence. Clearly the stuff at BMO isn't the best & isn't maintained to a decent pristine standard. I'd love a grass field, but the odds of it happening soon are zilch

I'm just wondering what kinda grass field we should get, state of the art, or something else, Niven raises some interesting points. He played at the highest level, knows what he's talking about. Just sharing an educated perspective on the issue.

As for TFC & BMO, grass would be preferable, but our team's performance isn't turf related, it's talent related right now

I think if we got the state of the art, grasssmaster pitch with undersoil heating, we'd have a durable grass field, with good drainage that is ten times better than the BMO turf, and wont frighten away good players. I don't think it would be durable enough to sustain the usage the turf is currently getting, but the fieldturf definitely isnt either.

I agree we have a talent problem, but I also think that ensco has a point in that our players aren't committing on the turf in the way they might on grass, causing inhibited play.

Sorry if I misjudged your reasons for posting this btw, I was in a bottle last night!

bhoybobby
04-19-2009, 06:26 PM
You pretty much answer your own question - if we get a grass field it will likely be at the same "level" as the turf we have, certainly not state of the art. Which, as the article shows, might not be a bad thing.

And as for your final point, there's still some debate if our team's performance is due to lack of talent (in relation to the other MLS teams) or if we're not using the right tactics for the players we have. Either way, we hope for better performances than we saw the last two games.

It's become more apparent to me that with the lack of will at mlse to spend $ on a decent sweeper/C.B D.P we can forget about upgrading facililties.

The fact that we have an upper mgmt structure of AssEmbly & Mo, who have no successful track record running a club & who talk in circled cliches doesn't give me hope.

Mlse is suffering from Harold Ballard syndrome, why improve anything if the lemmings are lining up for seasons tix. They's be more inclined to do the right hing with facilities, players, upper mgmt if the stadium was only 3/4 full.

Right now, there is no motivation for them to do anything but tow the party line & Mo will gladly feather his nest & yap about 5 year plans, keeping the expectation bar nice & low.

It makes me laugh whne people here talk about finances, it's not our money ffs. But then, they seem to be practicing what they've learned with the leafs, treat them mean keep em keen.

Shakes McQueen
04-19-2009, 06:53 PM
It's become more apparent to me that with the lack of will at mlse to spend $ on a decent sweeper/C.B D.P we can forget about upgrading facililties.

The fact that we have an upper mgmt structure of AssEmbly & Mo, who have no successful track record running a club & who talk in circled cliches doesn't give me hope.

Mlse is suffering from Harold Ballard syndrome, why improve anything if the lemmings are lining up for seasons tix. They's be more inclined to do the right hing with facilities, players, upper mgmt if the stadium was only 3/4 full.

Right now, there is no motivation for them to do anything but tow the party line & Mo will gladly feather his nest & yap about 5 year plans, keeping the expectation bar nice & low.

It makes me laugh whne people here talk about finances, it's not our money ffs. But then, they seem to be practicing what they've learned with the leafs, treat them mean keep em keen.

Playoff soccer earns MLSE more income from matches, and allows them to jack ticket prices even more, because it keeps demand high due to the bandwagoners.

I don't buy the whole idea that because matches sell out, they aren't inclined to do anything. How do you explain (with the exception of this season), the Leafs spending right to the NHL cap every season? Or being one of the highest spending teams in the NHL pre-lockout?

If they knew people were just going to show no matter what as you're hypothesizing, why not field an AHL team at AHL salaries, and save those extra millions?

MLSE is an easy scapegoat, because they are a big heartless corporation. The real problem for the Leafs was the board meddling in team affairs until recently, and the real problem for TFC is... well... who knows. It could be Mo. It could be Carver. It could be members of the team who aren't playing to their potential. It could be any combination of those things.

- Scott

The Kingpin
04-19-2009, 07:03 PM
Playoff soccer earns MLSE more income from matches, and allows them to jack ticket prices even more, because it keeps demand high due to the bandwagoners.

I don't buy the whole idea that because matches sell out, they aren't inclined to do anything. How do you explain (with the exception of this season), the Leafs spending right to the NHL cap every season? Or being one of the highest spending teams in the NHL pre-lockout?

If they knew people were just going to show no matter what as you're hypothesizing, why not field an AHL team at AHL salaries, and save those extra millions?

MLSE is an easy scapegoat, because they are a big heartless corporation. The real problem for the Leafs was the board meddling in team affairs until recently, and the real problem for TFC is... well... who knows. It could be Mo. It could be Carver. It could be members of the team who aren't playing to their potential. It could be any combination of those things.

- Scott

Yawn - you are a constant apologist. :rolleyes:

Shakes McQueen
04-19-2009, 07:12 PM
Yawn - you are a constant apologist. :rolleyes:

While I appreciate the personal insult, you haven't actually explained what about my above post was untrue.

My apologies for acknowledging simple economics, and facts.

- Scott

bhoybobby
04-19-2009, 08:24 PM
Playoff soccer earns MLSE more income from matches, and allows them to jack ticket prices even more, because it keeps demand high due to the bandwagoners.

I don't buy the whole idea that because matches sell out, they aren't inclined to do anything. How do you explain (with the exception of this season), the Leafs spending right to the NHL cap every season? Or being one of the highest spending teams in the NHL pre-lockout?

If they knew people were just going to show no matter what as you're hypothesizing, why not field an AHL team at AHL salaries, and save those extra millions?

MLSE is an easy scapegoat, because they are a big heartless corporation. The real problem for the Leafs was the board meddling in team affairs until recently, and the real problem for TFC is... well... who knows. It could be Mo. It could be Carver. It could be members of the team who aren't playing to their potential. It could be any combination of those things.

- Scott

Could be lack of proven track record & leadership from upper mgmt. Why you would put Assman & Mo in those positions is beyond me, Please list the managerial success they've had in football.................I'l save you the time, none, nada, zilch

Shakes McQueen
04-19-2009, 08:40 PM
Could be lack of proven track record & leadership from upper mgmt. Why you would put Assman & Mo in those positions is beyond me, Please list the managerial success they've had in football.................I'l save you the time, none, nada, zilch

They brought in Mo, a former GM for another MLS team. While you might argue he wasn't the best choice, given what was available (I don't remember what was), I don't think it was a completely ridiculous hiring. He had done the job before, and he had experience with the league.

Anselmi doesn't seem to have much, if anything, to do with day-to-day team affairs. That mostly seems to be Paul B and Mo.

But none of this has anything to do with your assertion that MLSE has no problem letting all of it's franchises wallow in mediocrity, or that they have no incentive to create playoff contenders. Economics and realty just dictate that isn't the case.

I don't think pointing this stuff out is me being an "apologist".

- Scott

Beach_Red
04-19-2009, 08:41 PM
Could be lack of proven track record & leadership from upper mgmt. Why you would put Assman & Mo in those positions is beyond me, Please list the managerial success they've had in football.................I'l save you the time, none, nada, zilch

Mo wasn't such a bad call. He's done a good job of managing the wonky MLS roster restrictions and drafting. He's had trouble signing bigger name players to an expansion team in Canada and it looks like he's never going to get the approval to spend money on a DP (cause all it would take to get one is a big enough cheque).

Would a different manager have made much of a difference so far? It's really unlikely. The roster now after three years is a solid MLS roster. It's pretty much what any manager would have put together - there isn't much room with the salary cap and other weird rules to be very creative as a manager (a general manager, really, because it looks like MLSE is modeling this on hockey). That's just the structure of the "parity-crazy" MLS - it's what they want, a league where "senoir management" has little impact.

That the players aren't performing anywhere near as well as they should (and as people have pointed out most of these players aren't playing as well as they did for teams they came from) is the real problem here and it looks like Mo's biggest mistake was Carver. Should have hired a coach that knows MLS and can work a game plan for an MLS roster.

The fact Sigi was willing to change teams in the off season and we didn't even make an offer is very disappointing.

bhoybobby
04-19-2009, 08:49 PM
They brought in Mo, a former GM for another MLS team. While you might argue he wasn't the best choice, given what was available (I don't remember what was), I don't think it was a completely ridiculous hiring. He had done the job before, and he had experience with the league.

Anselmi doesn't seem to have much, if anything, to do with day-to-day team affairs. That mostly seems to be Paul B and Mo.

But none of this has anything to do with your assertion that MLSE has no problem letting all of it's franchises wallow in mediocrity, or that they have no incentive to create playoff contenders. Economics and realty just dictate that isn't the case.

I don't think pointing this stuff out is me being an "apologist".

- Scott

Why not bring a mgmt team,(admin & coaching) with a proven winning track record in. It was a shit business decision pure & simple

Shakes McQueen
04-19-2009, 08:53 PM
Why not bring a mgmt team,(admin & coaching) with a proven winning track record in. It was a shit business decision pure & simple

But what management and coaching teams with a proven track record of winning were available? Usually those people are employed already.

I mean, if we turned down successful coaches or managers that were available at the time, then I agree - really dumb move. But do we know that happened?

And again, this doesn't pertain to your comments about MLSE being fine with their sports franchises being shitty.

- Scott

Beach_Red
04-19-2009, 09:02 PM
Why not bring a mgmt team,(admin & coaching) with a proven winning track record in. It was a shit business decision pure & simple


I guess you mean a winning record in MLS or USL, right? They probably could have poached someone. A lot of people think Frank Yallop would have been okay.

Aren't there winning coaches in MLS now who had previous success in the NCAA? That might have worked, too.

The thing is in sports, though, "proven success" with one team guarantees nothing and "proven success" in one league means less than nothing in another. I know lots of people think New England have great management but would we really be satisfied going 0-4 in Championship games?

The way MLS is structured "senior management" doesn't make nearly as big a difference as coaching. Look at the allocation rule. Isn't that how Seattle got Moreno? Had nothing to do with their senior management, it was just their turn. It's a weird league...