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trane
04-15-2009, 04:44 PM
"be" in title shuold be a "the" , there should be "team" after new, sorry.

After seeing this said time after time, I would like people to tell me exaclty when we are no longer a new team? Year five as per Mo's plan. Fuck I hope not.

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 04:53 PM
I say this year

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-15-2009, 04:53 PM
Its is usually after 5 years the "expansion" or new team name can go,

look at the Jays after 5 years...they were shite...still are but thats not the point..The Jays took the time to build a 2 time world series winner
and TFC must be given the same...with luck it wont take the 15 years
it took the Jays.....real fans/supporters will be patient...

Beach_Red
04-15-2009, 04:57 PM
Really, this roster is a solid MLS roster - lacking only a DP striker. We'd all like to have one right now, but it's not the end of the world to wait until the next transfer window.

The roster has steadily improved in the first two years.

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 04:58 PM
Its is usually after 5 years the "expansion" or new team name can go,

look at the Jays after 5 years...they were shite...still are but thats not the point..The Jays took the time to build a 2 time world series winner
and TFC must be given the same...with luck it wont take the 15 years
it took the Jays.....real fans/supporters will be patient...
True dat people around here need to start making more realistic expectations, we are still new by most people's standards but having said that the talent to win is on the team this year so being new should be less of a valid excuse.

Pachuco
04-15-2009, 04:59 PM
there are 0 excuses this year. If we don't do well, there are absolutely no excuses.

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-15-2009, 05:01 PM
True dat people around here need to start making more realistic expectations, we are still new by most people's standards but having said that the talent to win is on the team this year so being new should be less of a valid excuse.


we still might end up with a winning record...early days yet...lets be honest if we have to struggle lets do it now instead of Aug/Sept?Oct
when the playoff push is on..:cool:

TFCREDNWHITE
04-15-2009, 05:02 PM
ALRIGHT, Look....

We should ALWAYS have a winning mentality. I'm not saying that we should be winning the CUP every single year after year...but, we should always be sniffing around and challenging for the cup!!

NO MORE "were new" excuses!!

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 05:06 PM
ALRIGHT, Look....

We should ALWAYS have a winning mentality. I'm not saying that we should be winning the CUP every single year after year...but, we should always be sniffing around and challenging for the cup!!

NO MORE "were new" excuses!!
Are you sure you're not saying that because it really seems like you are in the other thread:rolleyes:
I don't think anyone doesn't have a winning mentality (just because we're not winning doesn't mean we like it) people are simply trying to say that its WAAAAAAAAY too early to be jumping ship this season.

trane
04-15-2009, 05:06 PM
Really, this roster is a solid MLS roster - lacking only a DP striker. We'd all like to have one right now, but it's not the end of the world to wait until the next transfer window.

The roster has steadily improved in the first two years.

Agreed, but my point has been made by TFCREDNWHITE.

loconet
04-15-2009, 05:11 PM
The excuse has to end this year.

- The players are solid for MLS (for the most part).
- Coach has been with the team since last season.
- Most players were there since the start of pre-season
- We have what is supposed to be a top-notch fitness coach.
- We had decent draft pick positions.
- We have decent depth for FIFA dates.
- The money is there for Mo to have made the moves.
- We have two years of experience as an MLS team.

If we don't make the playoffs this year, something drastic has to be done.

But it's very very very early still, I'm confident we won't have to use the "we are a new team" excuse this year. Patience! :D

Dirk Diggler
04-15-2009, 05:14 PM
Its is usually after 5 years the "expansion" or new team name can go,

look at the Jays after 5 years...they were shite...still are but thats not the point..The Jays took the time to build a 2 time world series winner
and TFC must be given the same...with luck it wont take the 15 years
it took the Jays.....real fans/supporters will be patient...

Not an apt comparison at all. First of all, it is infinitely harder to make the playoffs in baseball. Secondly, MLB has way more teams that are way more established (with teams having 100 years of history). In addition, there is no salary cap in the MLB ... which makes knocking out teams like NYY and Boston Red Sox just a tad bit harder.

So yeah ... there you have it. Expansion teams in the MLS are working under a completely different set of circumstances. Chicago won the league (I know what excuse people are going to use here) and Seattle seems to be doing terribly well (and I know what excuse people are going to use here).

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 05:18 PM
The excuse has to end this year.

- The players are solid for MLS (for the most part).
- Coach has been with the team since last season.
- Most players were there since the start of pre-season
- We have what is supposed to be a top-notch fitness coach.
- We had decent draft pick positions.
- We have decent depth for FIFA dates.
- The money is there for Mo to have made the moves.
- We have two years of experience as an MLS team.

If we don't make the playoffs this year, something drastic has to be done.

But it's very very very early still, I'm confident we won't have to use the "we are a new team" excuse this year. Patience! :D
I just want to clarify that loconet is NOT a second account of mine, because this is exactly my viewpoint:D

BleedRed
04-15-2009, 05:22 PM
Its is usually after 5 years the "expansion" or new team name can go,

look at the Jays after 5 years...they were shite...still are but thats not the point..The Jays took the time to build a 2 time world series winner
and TFC must be given the same...with luck it wont take the 15 years
it took the Jays.....real fans/supporters will be patient...

Dude thats fucking retarded. Real supporters stand up for their club and make sure their voice is heard. They don't just sit back and wait to get shit on. Support your team, but don't let the organization push you around.

JDG
04-15-2009, 05:23 PM
Before the team ever played a game, I gave my support a lot of thought.
Being a Torontonian, born in the year that the Leafs last won the Cup, I am well aware of the stupidity of blindly supporting a team no matter what.
Recognizing that this is my favorite sport, and my desire to see a team survive in this city, I was determined to do my part in making sure this team is supported properly.
I asked myself how long it would be before I acknowledged that the team was turning out like the Leafs, and no longer deserved my support.
My conclusion was that if, after 10 years there is evidance that the team has no desire to win, and all they are doing is selling tickets and merchandice, then I would walk away.
I didn't expect a playoff team until the third year, and I did expect to be Champions in the first 10 years.
I lived through the first two years without much trouble because my expectations were never high. I know it takes time to properly build a winning team. I know it takes time to build and refine the infrastructure that needs to be there for a team to succeed.
In the third season, I am encouraged because I see eveidence that the infrastructure is coming along nicely, and there is a desire from the organization to put a winning team on the pitch.
If it was an exact science, everyone would be Champions. We all know that is impossible, so I'm going to be patient, and support my team until they give me a reason not to.
I'm not going to be making the decision to walk away for a long time yet, so I'm not ready to by into any of the "the sky is falling" scenarios that are posted on this forum so often.
If you need to let yourself get upset everytime they lose, then so be it. I'm not going there.
If they play like shit, I'll say so. If they play well, I'll say so. If they go into a slump, I'll be disappointed, but I won't think it's the end of the world.
It's too early for me to be convinced that we as fans and supporters are being fleeced. Do I think it's an impossible scenario? No. It's just to soon to be sure.

The team gets my unconditional support for now. There is an expiry date on the offer, but it's not coming up soon.

trane
04-15-2009, 05:30 PM
I for one will not stop supporting this team, any time soon, the point is when do we say we demand better, we demand change? I agree the time has not yet come, but when is it? As an individual I gave them 10 games into this season, but that is me. I do not think that we are a "new" team, maybe last year, not this year.

MUFC_Niagara
04-15-2009, 05:31 PM
Before the team ever played a game, I gave my support a lot of thought.
Being a Torontonian, born in the year that the Leafs last won the Cup, I am well aware of the stupidity of blindly supporting a team no matter what.
Recognizing that this is my favorite sport, and my desire to see a team survive in this city, I was determined to do my part in making sure this team is supported properly.
I asked myself how long it would be before I acknowledged that the team was turning out like the Leafs, and no longer deserved my support.
My conclusion was that if, after 10 years there is evidance that the team has no desire to win, and all they are doing is selling tickets and merchandice, then I would walk away.
I didn't expect a playoff team until the third year, and I did expect to be Champions in the first 10 years.
I lived through the first two years without much trouble because my expectations were never high. I know it takes time to properly build a winning team. I know it takes time to build and refine the infrastructure that needs to be there for a team to succeed.
In the third season, I am encouraged because I see eveidence that the infrastructure is coming along nicely, and there is a desire from the organization to put a winning team on the pitch.
If it was an exact science, everyone would be Champions. We all know that is impossible, so I'm going to be patient, and support my team until they give me a reason not to.
I'm not going to be making the decision to walk away for a long time yet, so I'm not ready to by into any of the "the sky is falling" scenarios that are posted on this forum so often.
If you need to let yourself get upset everytime they lose, then so be it. I'm not going there.
If they play like shit, I'll say so. If they play well, I'll say so. If they go into a slump, I'll be disappointed, but I won't think it's the end of the world.
It's too early for me to be convinced that we as fans and supporters are being fleeced. Do I think it's an impossible scenario? No. It's just to soon to be sure.

The team gets my unconditional support for now. There is an expiry date on the offer, but it's not coming up soon.

Finally a voice of fucking reason in the public forum!

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 05:33 PM
I for one will not stop supporting this team, any time soon, the point is when do we say we demand better, we demand change? I agree the time has not yet come, but when is it? As an individual I gave them 10 games into this season, but that is me. I do not think that we are a "new" team, maybe last year, not this year.
You may be looking too deep into these first 4 games, I don't think that we need to be concerne that MLSE is screwing us over, we don't have the cap room for a DP right now, and DPs are far from sure things when it comes to winning look at LA FFS. I think this is just a little bit of a slump with only two undesired outcomes in a row things will get better.

trane
04-15-2009, 05:34 PM
"I didn't expect a playoff team until the third year, and I did expect to be Champions in the first 10 years."

By the way JDG I think this is reasonable. My point if we do not get enough points out of the first 10 games we will not be a playoff team in the third year.

trane
04-15-2009, 05:38 PM
You may be looking too deep into these first 4 games, I don't think that we need to be concerne that MLSE is screwing us over, we don't have the cap room for a DP right now, and DPs are far from sure things when it comes to winning look at LA FFS. I think this is just a little bit of a slump with only two undesired outcomes in a row things will get better.

Maybe, but in mind I cannot completley separate the end of last season from the begging of this one. Our lack of organizations and team play is remarcably similar. Listen we can go on a streak of 3-1-2 and then you would be proven right. But I do not whant to be in mid season, at 3-5-5, 14 poitns and still be waiting for things to magicaly fall in place.

I started this thread because someone told me that we were still a "new" team, I do not accept that as true.

giambac
04-15-2009, 06:50 PM
"be" in title shuold be a "the" , there should be "team" after new, sorry.

After seeing this said time after time, I would like people to tell me exaclty when we are no longer a new team? Year five as per Mo's plan. Fuck I hope not.

I'm afraid that most people in this city have become accustomed to losing becasue of all our other sport teams- Leafs, Raptors etc.
People in this city have accepted mediocricy or below average play. They are always making excuses (expansion team, only 3rd year of 5 year plan etc) and are afarid to criticize the team or management.

We all want TFC to win but if we keep on coming up with excuses for the playerss, coaches and management then we will never improve.

I want results and I don't want to wait until year 5 or until the last 10 games of the year. I want to see results withinh the next 2-3 weeks before the season slips way.

druid
04-15-2009, 07:42 PM
For me it started dying on July 22nd 2008 in the 86th minute.

It was dead 13 minutes later.

Derko
04-15-2009, 07:45 PM
there are 0 excuses this year. If we don't do well, there are absolutely no excuses.

What do you define as doing 'well' ?

My definition is: TFC win more games than previous years, TFC reduce the amount of goals against, TFC win more games on the road, TFC make the playoffs and TFC play more competitive football than previous year.

In a nutshell: Improve over past years, there will be dissapointments as well as triumphs, as long as the triumphs increase year upon year, That my friends is the game of football, in any league from Sunday Pub League football to the World Cup and all the major tournaments and leagues throught the world.

The great teams did not develop overnight, nor will TFC.

Yes I will be dissapointed if TFC do not accomplish these things, but if TFC do accomplish some of those things I will be happy.

Of course this is my opinion only and would not try to force it on anyone and you are entitled to yours.

Cheers from one of the most passionate TFC supporters in Alton.

:drinking:

FluSH
04-15-2009, 07:49 PM
Playoffs = do well

I believe the players and JC have said on numerous occasions that they see a playoff run for this year. To me anything else would be a dissapointment.

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-15-2009, 07:50 PM
Dude thats fucking retarded. Real supporters stand up for their club and make sure their voice is heard. They don't just sit back and wait to get shit on. Support your team, but don't let the organization push you around.

but expecting too much too soon is the common tool on this board..
how many teams in anysport actually compete in thier first 3-5 years
of being? most new teams struggle for that period of time at least,
some longer, some fans have to be realistic...IT TAKES TIME to Build
a contender.

Pachuco
04-15-2009, 07:51 PM
What do you define as doing 'well' ?

My definition is: TFC win more games than previous years, TFC reduce the amount of goals against, TFC win more games on the road, TFC make the playoffs and TFC play more competitive football than previous year.

In a nutshell: Improve over past years, there will be dissapointments as well as triumphs, as long as the triumphs increase year upon year, That my friends is the game of football, in any league from Sunday Pub League football to the World Cup and all the major tournaments and leagues throught the world.

The great teams did not develop overnight, nor will TFC.

Yes I will be dissapointed if TFC do not accomplish these things, but if TFC do accomplish some of those things I will be happy.

Of course this is my opinion only and would not try to force it on anyone and you are entitled to yours.

Cheers from one of the most passionate TFC supporters in Alton.

:drinking:

Yeah I agree with most of what you say, I'm just not as nice :) Here is my definition of them doing well.

* 1st round of the playoffs
* Win the Canada Cup
* Play better footie then what I saw last 2 years and the first 4 games of the season

That's the minimum expectations I have. Anything short of that and I am convinced Carver needs to go. Heck if we aren't playing well and if we lose to USL teams by mid way through the season, then I hope to God Carver is gone. If Mo doesn't get a striker and a CB by the end of the year (without trading someone major on the team) then he should go to.

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 07:51 PM
Maybe, but in mind I cannot completley separate the end of last season from the begging of this one. Our lack of organizations and team play is remarcably similar. Listen we can go on a streak of 3-1-2 and then you would be proven right. But I do not whant to be in mid season, at 3-5-5, 14 poitns and still be waiting for things to magicaly fall in place.

I started this thread because someone told me that we were still a "new" team, I do not accept that as true.
I completely agree that we're not new any more because we can see that we have a roster that is (theoretically) able to compete so being new doesn't excuse us any more. And I'm not about to say that I'd be ok with being 13 games in with 14 pts like you said, but I think we should wait until maybe 7-8 games in with only 10 pts before we start panicing and at that time I mean we should be really panicing like freaking out because that will be absolutely unacceptable.

Oldtimer
04-15-2009, 07:52 PM
wow. Yet another negative thread, what a surprise. :rolleyes:

Mods, can we merge all of these stupid threads into one giant-mega-hate-filled-superthread? Maybe even sticky it so that the same five people can keep posting the criticism for all to read.

Pachuco
04-15-2009, 07:57 PM
wow. Yet another negative thread, what a surprise. :rolleyes:

Mods, can we merge all of these stupid threads into one giant-mega-hate-filled-superthread? Maybe even sticky it so that the same five people can keep posting the criticism for all to read.

There's a positive thread on this same page, guess you got bored of it?

FluSH
04-15-2009, 08:00 PM
wow. Yet another negative thread, what a surprise. :rolleyes:

Mods, can we merge all of these stupid threads into one giant-mega-hate-filled-superthread? Maybe even sticky it so that the same five people can keep posting the criticism for all to read.


Hey man... as long as they do the same with the happy threads... whenever they come :D

trane
04-15-2009, 08:00 PM
I do not think it is negative to set goals for your club.

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 08:12 PM
I do not think it is negative to set goals for your club.
No it is not but to only wait 4 games into a 30 game season to say that we failed those goals is negative.

trane
04-15-2009, 08:18 PM
^ I am not saying we failed, but we are failing, and if we do not straighten up sooner rather then later, we will need to consider drastic changes.



To be honest, I had the same feeling, around august or september last year, I just so no tangible improvement of play on the field, and I asked the same question at that time, the first four games just brought that feeling back. I am just not seeing the improvemnt that I would like to see, and again I am not talking about points alone, but more particuallrly play. If we looked good on the field but lost due to a couple of mistakes, I woudl feel we are not far, but it is more then that. I am hoping things will drasticaly change on Sunday.

Pachuco
04-15-2009, 08:19 PM
No it is not but to only wait 4 games into a 30 game season to say that we failed those goals is negative.

I don't see anyone saying we failed those goals.

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-15-2009, 08:22 PM
^ I am not saying we failed, but we are failing, and if we do not straighten up sooner rather then later, we will need to consider drastic changes.

Like what?? trade a certain player brought in from Houston cause hes
not producing? i would go for that.... Release a certain Bald headed player cause hes old and too slow....i would go for that... are those the
drastic changes your looking for?

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 08:26 PM
I don't see anyone saying we failed those goals.
Ok you got me no one siad those exact words but it just seems like people are speculating that we'll fail before its even close to being able to be determined

Pachuco
04-15-2009, 08:32 PM
Ok you got me no one siad those exact words but it just seems like people are speculating that we'll fail before its even close to being able to be determined

we are currently failing. To be honest, I live in the now. If we turn things around, I'm sure my tone will change as well. I have a hard time watching the team suck and saying "well it's ok, we'll get them next time", but that's just me.

trane
04-15-2009, 08:33 PM
Like what?? trade a certain player brought in from Houston cause hes
not producing? i would go for that.... Release a certain Bald headed player cause hes old and too slow....i would go for that... are those the
drastic changes your looking for?


Have you ever watched football before? Seriously, you realy think this clubs problems are Dichio and De Ro? So you love everything about TFC, including Harmse at CB, but De Ro and Dichio have to go?

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 08:37 PM
we are currently failing. To be honest, I live in the now. If we turn things around, I'm sure my tone will change as well. I have a hard time watching the team suck and saying "well it's ok, we'll get them next time", but that's just me.
I'm not so sure you are I think you're predicting a bleak future and living as though you know its going to happen. Statistically speaking it is very inaccurate to try and determine anything from only 4 points of data.

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 08:39 PM
Have you ever watched football before? Seriously, you realy think this clubs problems are Dichio and De Ro? So you love everything about TFC, including Harmse at CB, but De Ro and Dichio have to go?
I'm no expert but I believe he was using the literary device known as sarcasm. Of course this is an assumption because those are two of the most ridiculus statements I've ever read.

Pachuco
04-15-2009, 08:40 PM
I'm not so sure you are I think you're predicting a bleak future and living as though you know its going to happen. Statistically speaking it is very inaccurate to try and determine anything from only 4 points of data.

But the team isn't 4 games old. It's 2 seasons plus 4 games old. I do write off the first season since the players and coaches have changed.

So now, Carver and the core players have been here well over a year now. I still don't see an improvement and therefore I've lost confidence that I'm going by half way through the season.

trane
04-15-2009, 08:40 PM
^ I am not sure I think he is just mad, and he said it in anger.

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 08:43 PM
But the team isn't 4 games old. It's 2 seasons plus 4 games old. I do write off the first season since the players and coaches have changed.

So now, Carver and the core players have been here well over a year now. I still don't see an improvement and therefore I've lost confidence that I'm going by half way through the season.
The team is drastically different from last year our keeper has changed, our best CB has changed, our strikers have changed, our RM and LM have changed, so really 6 of 11 players have been changed. Hardly the same team

Pachuco
04-15-2009, 08:50 PM
The team is drastically different from last year our keeper has changed, our best CB has changed, our strikers have changed, our RM and LM have changed, so really 6 of 11 players have been changed. Hardly the same team

Huh? That's not true, and you know it ;)

The only three players who were different then last year last game were Frei, Cronin and Dero. They are all improvements over what we had last year. So how exactly am I supposed to stand by and say, well the team needs more playing time together before I can judge them?

Also, all three of them were in preseason.

I really don't know what you are getting at. That we aren't doing well because the team has made improvements in the off season?

trane
04-15-2009, 08:52 PM
Huh? That's not true, and you know it ;)

The only three players who were different then last year last game were Frei, Cronin and Dero. They are all improvements over what we had last year. So how exactly am I supposed to stand by and say, well the team needs more playing time together before I can judge them?

Also, all three of them were in preseason.

I really don't know what you are getting at. That we aren't doing well because the team has made improvements in the off season?

Not according to Mighty, DeRo shuold be traded.

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 09:00 PM
Huh? That's not true, and you know it ;)

The only three players who were different then last year last game were Frei, Cronin and Dero. They are all improvements over what we had last year. So how exactly am I supposed to stand by and say, well the team needs more playing time together before I can judge them?

Also, all three of them were in preseason.

I really don't know what you are getting at. That we aren't doing well because the team has made improvements in the off season?
You're forgetting the fact that we only had Barrett for 13 games last season, also the man with the assist on Saturday, Serioux. also Vitti, another new face came on, so in total 5 starters were not with us for the majority of last season, and another new face came on. So I was damn close.;)

J .
04-15-2009, 09:08 PM
After this season. I want us to be a top five club. It takes time for a club to come together and we are building very soundly. Good young talent and some good veterans as well. The team is coming together.

Four games in and we have only one loss and pointed in three of those four, and are three points out of first...

If we are three points out of first at the end of the year. Would yall then shut up about the team?

Pachuco
04-15-2009, 09:15 PM
You're forgetting the fact that we only had Barrett for 13 games last season, also the man with the assist on Saturday, Serioux. also Vitti, another new face came on, so in total 5 starters were not with us for the majority of last season, and another new face came on. So I was damn close.;)

I forgot Serioux. But come on, you are telling me 17 games (PLUS pre-season) isn't long enough to say Barrett has had his chance to acclimate?

So 4 starters changed from last season. (Vitty played 1 minute so please, hard to even mention his name). So I ask you again, are you telling me that this team has made so many drastic changes that they need more time to gel?

Seattle has 11 new players on the field and a new coach and look at them right now?

Pachuco
04-15-2009, 09:19 PM
After this season. I want us to be a top five club. It takes time for a club to come together and we are building very soundly. Good young talent and some good veterans as well. The team is coming together.

Four games in and we have only one loss and pointed in three of those four, and are three points out of first...

If we are three points out of first at the end of the year. Would yall then shut up about the team?

I don't care how many points out of first we finish. I care what our position is in the standings. Right now, we are shit and wouldn't make the playoffs. Even if you spin it that we are three points out of first. So if we finish three points out of first, and we don't make the playoffs, I won't shut up.

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 09:20 PM
I don't care how many points out of first we finish. I care what our position is in the standings. Right now, we are shit and wouldn't make the playoffs. Even if you spin it that we are three points out of first. So if we finish three points out of first, and we don't make the playoffs, I won't shut up.
That sir is damn near statistically impossible:D

olegunnar
04-15-2009, 09:21 PM
I think this is another case where people have to check their prior footy knowledge/experience at the door because the MLS is such a different animal.

Just like people placing too much emphasis on defense, because it's so important in most leagues....but not in MLS, it's all about scoring...people seem to forget MLS' single entity quirks.

There's a cap, discovery claims, allocations, NO free agency. All of these quirks level the playing field. Add to that we have a built in home field advantage due to the shit turf.
All of those factors decrease in my opinion the "average" new team excuse time.

it's not like we're working our way up through leagues, fighting relegation and promotion battles. It's not like we're losing potential signings to Houston or New England because players want to play for a winner. It's not like we're fighting against teams with money bag owners that can outbid us for players. It's not like we're playing in a crappy 10,000 seat stadium and competing against teams in 80,000 seat Old Traffords.

If it were any other league I think there'd be some reason for excuses. Not in single entity MLS. There are no more excuses.

JDG
04-15-2009, 09:42 PM
I don't care how many points out of first we finish. I care what our position is in the standings. Right now, we are shit and wouldn't make the playoffs. Even if you spin it that we are three points out of first. So if we finish three points out of first, and we don't make the playoffs, I won't shut up.

So far we're averaging 1.25 points per game. At this rate, we'll finish with 37.5 points. Convention says you need 40 points to get in the playoffs.

Do you really believe we'll get worse than we already are?
Up the average points per game by .25 and we'll finish at 45 points - comfortably in the playoffs.

Check back with me at game 10 and see where we're at. It won't be below 1.25 per game.

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 09:55 PM
So far we're averaging 1.25 points per game. At this rate, we'll finish with 37.5 points. Convention says you need 40 points to get in the playoffs.

Do you really believe we'll get worse than we already are?
Up the average points per game by .25 and we'll finish at 45 points - comfortably in the playoffs.

Check back with me at game 10 and see where we're at. It won't be below 1.25 per game.
I think we're going to be alright because our home record has always been our strong suit but now in the first 4 games its changed so I'd like to think that our away form has improved from last season but we've just had 2 poor results at home. Let's not forget that if the Dallas goal wasn't scored we'd be 2-1-1 and none of thse threads would exist

marshall_law
04-15-2009, 10:41 PM
Yeah I agree with most of what you say, I'm just not as nice :) Here is my definition of them doing well.

* 1st round of the playoffs
* Win the Canada Cup
* Play better footie then what I saw last 2 years and the first 4 games of the season

this is the most important/immediate goal. let's achieve this, let's get the fundamentals down and start creating a culture of technically and aesthetically sound soccer around the team. once this happens, the other things (playoffs, championships) will come.

there's no point in putting an emphasis on making the playoffs given the current state of the team. if we squeak in by playing crappy soccer and get bounced in the first round, i won't be any happier than i am now.

ExiledRed
04-15-2009, 11:23 PM
Like what?? trade a certain player brought in from Houston cause hes
not producing? i would go for that.... Release a certain Bald headed player cause hes old and too slow....i would go for that... are those the
drastic changes your looking for?

Oh how controversial!

Brennan, DeRo and Dichio all too crap for Mighty.

Who are your faves? Barrett, Harmse and Ricketts?

T_Mizz
04-16-2009, 09:57 AM
Like what?? trade a certain player brought in from Houston cause hes
not producing? i would go for that.... Release a certain Bald headed player cause hes old and too slow....i would go for that... are those the
drastic changes your looking for?
Mighty can you please clarify what you meant with this post I mean surely you're not a complete tool, I think you intentionally exaggerated someone else's point to the point it became ridiculous thus strengthening your point of view, there's a term for it I can't remember what it is but I have no doubt jloome knows.

Pachuco
04-16-2009, 10:12 AM
So far we're averaging 1.25 points per game. At this rate, we'll finish with 37.5 points. Convention says you need 40 points to get in the playoffs.

Do you really believe we'll get worse than we already are?
Up the average points per game by .25 and we'll finish at 45 points - comfortably in the playoffs.

Check back with me at game 10 and see where we're at. It won't be below 1.25 per game.

No one is saying we'll get worst. But you kinda prove my point that if we keep going the way we are, we won't make the playoffs. Therefore, do I not have the right to think that unless we get better, then we won't make the playoffs?

You are going on the assumption that we'll improve what we are doing now. I'm going on the assumption that unless we make changes, we won't. We'll definately check after 10 games again and revisit.

scooter
04-16-2009, 10:59 AM
Before the team ever played a game, I gave my support a lot of thought.
Being a Torontonian, born in the year that the Leafs last won the Cup, I am well aware of the stupidity of blindly supporting a team no matter what.
Recognizing that this is my favorite sport, and my desire to see a team survive in this city, I was determined to do my part in making sure this team is supported properly.
I asked myself how long it would be before I acknowledged that the team was turning out like the Leafs, and no longer deserved my support.
My conclusion was that if, after 10 years there is evidance that the team has no desire to win, and all they are doing is selling tickets and merchandice, then I would walk away.
I didn't expect a playoff team until the third year, and I did expect to be Champions in the first 10 years.
I lived through the first two years without much trouble because my expectations were never high. I know it takes time to properly build a winning team. I know it takes time to build and refine the infrastructure that needs to be there for a team to succeed.
In the third season, I am encouraged because I see eveidence that the infrastructure is coming along nicely, and there is a desire from the organization to put a winning team on the pitch.
If it was an exact science, everyone would be Champions. We all know that is impossible, so I'm going to be patient, and support my team until they give me a reason not to.
I'm not going to be making the decision to walk away for a long time yet, so I'm not ready to by into any of the "the sky is falling" scenarios that are posted on this forum so often.
If you need to let yourself get upset everytime they lose, then so be it. I'm not going there.
If they play like shit, I'll say so. If they play well, I'll say so. If they go into a slump, I'll be disappointed, but I won't think it's the end of the world.
It's too early for me to be convinced that we as fans and supporters are being fleeced. Do I think it's an impossible scenario? No. It's just to soon to be sure.

The team gets my unconditional support for now. There is an expiry date on the offer, but it's not coming up soon.

funny thing earnest i think we had this same conversation almost word for word last year walking to the game
like a man who sticks by his convictions

i also will support the reds unconditionally for ever

trane
04-16-2009, 11:05 AM
^ I am realy not trying to be an ass but what does undonditionall support mean, that you do not push for change if that is what you think is best for the club?

Beach_Red
04-16-2009, 11:13 AM
^ I am realy not trying to be an ass but what does undonditionall support mean, that you do not push for change if that is what you think is best for the club?

Keep in mind "change" can mean many things. What we all want is for the team to win more games. What we argue about is what we think will be the best way for that to happen.

Is it better at this point to change the players or the coach or the tactics?

We were probably just as surprised by the results of the first two games on the road as we were by the first two games at home. So maybe it really is too soon to say which of those teams - the one that scored 3 goals in KC and tied the league champs - or the one that lost to an expansion team (I know, I know, but really, they are) and blew a lead against one of the worst teams in the league.

I would like to see what adjustments the team can make as it is before any big changes are made.

trane
04-16-2009, 11:35 AM
^ No I am not calling for big changes NOW, I am just asking wether at some point, when and if it becomes clear that we are not improving, whether unconditional support for TFC, means demading change, or just letting the club do what it feels right without any negative comment from us.

Cashcleaner
04-16-2009, 11:39 AM
ALRIGHT, Look....

We should ALWAYS have a winning mentality. I'm not saying that we should be winning the CUP every single year after year...but, we should always be sniffing around and challenging for the cup!!

NO MORE "were new" excuses!!

Couldn't agree more. Look, you can play the "New Club" card for maybe three years at the most. Even then, it's stretching things. Your first year as a franchise is almost always a write-off and the second season is still about getting comfortable with your staff and roster. Year 3? Dude, if you still don't have your shit sorta out by now something is fundamentally wrong with your organization.

Blazer
04-16-2009, 12:19 PM
"be" in title shuold be a "the" , there should be "team" after new, sorry.

After seeing this said time after time, I would like people to tell me exaclty when we are no longer a new team? Year five as per Mo's plan. Fuck I hope not.

Is/have we been using this as an excuse? I haven’t heard it often if at all. Is it even an issue or a question?

Cashcleaner
04-16-2009, 12:23 PM
^ I'd agree that it hasn't been used all that much this year, but the attitude is still there.

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-16-2009, 12:30 PM
some of these guys have been calling for Mo's head for going on 3 years now, and now Carver is getting the stick...but when it all comes down to...we are still a new franchise like it or not...we are a good decade behind most MLS clubs and that cannot be made up in 3 years...

maninb
04-16-2009, 12:39 PM
Yeah I agree with most of what you say, I'm just not as nice :) Here is my definition of them doing well.

* 1st round of the playoffs
* Win the Canada Cup
* Play better footie then what I saw last 2 years and the first 4 games of the season

That's the minimum expectations I have. Anything short of that and I am convinced Carver needs to go. Heck if we aren't playing well and if we lose to USL teams by mid way through the season, then I hope to God Carver is gone. If Mo doesn't get a striker and a CB by the end of the year (without trading someone major on the team) then he should go to.

Well said....my sentiments exactly!!!

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-16-2009, 12:43 PM
Oh how controversial!

Brennan, DeRo and Dichio all too crap for Mighty.

Who are your faves? Barrett, Harmse and Ricketts?


Frei, Wynne,Guevara, Edwards,Cronin...just to name a few!!

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-16-2009, 12:55 PM
Mighty can you please clarify what you meant with this post I mean surely you're not a complete tool, I think you intentionally exaggerated someone else's point to the point it became ridiculous thus strengthening your point of view, there's a term for it I can't remember what it is but I have no doubt jloome knows.
My point is Dichio is too old and slow to help the team anymore, and should be put out to pasture...DeRo im not a fan of, and im not sure
his signing will help the team to the playoffs..time will tell on that...
And look at the recent success DeRo has brought to the national team?
the reason he is on the TFC roster is his nationality..he might end up bagging 10-15 goals this season, doubt it though, if he gets the 7
he got last season...that would be a big disappointment

Pachuco
04-16-2009, 01:33 PM
My point is Dichio is too old and slow to help the team anymore, and should be put out to pasture...DeRo im not a fan of, and im not sure
his signing will help the team to the playoffs..time will tell on that...
And look at the recent success DeRo has brought to the national team?
the reason he is on the TFC roster is his nationality..he might end up bagging 10-15 goals this season, doubt it though, if he gets the 7
he got last season...that would be a big disappointment

What if he gets 7 goals but dramatically improves the play of the team? You still gonna be dissapointed? Or your Soccer IQ is so low that you can only look at stats?

Blazer
04-16-2009, 01:42 PM
^ We are a stat whore nation. :hump:

ilikemusic
04-16-2009, 02:27 PM
Im shocked people still get duped into arguing with Mighty. :lol:

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-16-2009, 03:54 PM
What if he gets 7 goals but dramatically improves the play of the team? You still gonna be dissapointed? Or your Soccer IQ is so low that you can only look at stats?


what if he gets the 7 goals and the team does not improve..we you still
defend him? going by a lot of posts on here a lot of people dont think the team has improved..but its way to early to decide that..15-20 game mark
should tell us where we are head....Stats do mean a lot although not a
major factor...but the fact remains DeRo got 7 goals last term and the Dynamo did dick all!!!

trane
04-16-2009, 03:58 PM
Do you realy need 15-20 games into the seaon to figure out that we have not improved? And if so how would you blame first, the manager and coach, who have been here or De Ro who just came to the team?

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-16-2009, 04:06 PM
Do you realy need 15-20 games into the seaon to figure out that we have not improved? And if so how would you blame first, the manager and coach, who have been here or De Ro who just came to the team?


we could win the next 10 straight..highly unlikrly but possible would you then start calling the team good in that situation? DeRo has been in the
league long enough...he should not be placing a penalty kick long over
the bar as in KC:mad:, he didnt want to play at BMO for the WCQ, wanted
all the games in Montreal, yet will play on the surface in TO for TFC,
Hypocrite or what?

scooter
04-16-2009, 04:07 PM
Keep in mind "change" can mean many things. What we all want is for the team to win more games. What we argue about is what we think will be the best way for that to happen.

Is it better at this point to change the players or the coach or the tactics?

We were probably just as surprised by the results of the first two games on the road as we were by the first two games at home. So maybe it really is too soon to say which of those teams - the one that scored 3 goals in KC and tied the league champs - or the one that lost to an expansion team (I know, I know, but really, they are) and blew a lead against one of the worst teams in the league.

I would like to see what adjustments the team can make as it is before any big changes are made.

agreed lets let them have some time to sort it out

unconditional means win lose or draw i bleed red

i hear a lot of people singing "toronto till i die" on game day then back to the boards to whine and moan mo this and carver that

" in carver we trust " means in carver we trust not dumping on him after every loss and praising after every win

Don Julio
04-16-2009, 04:07 PM
I think there's too many people that have gotten their love of this game from glory-hunting and supporting perennial top teams in England, Spain and Italy. Teams that fire managers for only only winning one trophy. I have no idea why everybody feels this sense of entitlement of success. To think we should be challenging for the cup every year is ridiculous.

With the make up of the league in the next few years we will do well to make the playoffs 5 out of 10 years, and win the league 5-10 times a century. We have no advantage over other teams in this league. We sell more than average tickets and we really care about the team but how does that help?

Real football teams lose all the fucking time.

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-16-2009, 04:14 PM
I think there's too many people that have gotten their love of this game from glory-hunting and supporting perennial top teams in England, Spain and Italy. Teams that fire managers for only only winning one trophy. I have no idea why everybody feels this sense of entitlement of success. To think we should be challenging for the cup every year is ridiculous.

With the make up of the league in the next few years we will do well to make the playoffs 5 out of 10 years, and win the league 5-10 times a century. We have no advantage over other teams in this league. We sell more than average tickets and we really care about the team but how does that help?

Real football teams lose all the fucking time.

Exactly...Success has to be earned and built and 3 years is not enough
time..yes some improvement would be nice, a .500 season would be terrific , the Canadian Championship? nice to win but wont lose sleep if we dont,its a 3 team tourney. This season has a long way to go, and TFC will be fine playoffs or not.
e

ExiledRed
04-16-2009, 04:17 PM
Exactly...Success has to be earned and built and 3 years is not enough
time..yes some improvement would be nice, a .500 season would be terrific , the Canadian Championship? nice to win but wont lose sleep if we dont,its a 3 team tourney. This season has a long way to go, and TFC will be fine playoffs or not.
e

Where do you get your timelines?

The how to build a succesful MLS team handbook?

Your expectations are so low, you are MLSE's Ultimate fan, congratulations!

trane
04-16-2009, 04:19 PM
I am from Milano , Italy, there are two teams to support, Inter and AC Milan. I supported Milan even when it went down to Serie B, I support Milan, even now that it is not in Champions league this year. I will support Milan and the Azzurri even if everytone laughs and shit on them. I love the city I am from I love the team that represents it. No matter what. I love Everton, a good solid, hardworking squad, who can compete with the best, and lose to mediocare teams when it is not on its game. I love Everton because from the first time I saw them I loved the way they played, I love the blue of their uniform, and the way Goodison looked and sounded ( on TV). I am no glory hunter. I will support TFC no matter what. But I will not pretend that shite is gold. I will demend for better for our team. A team that we as supporters have made the pride of MLS, everywere but the pitch. I love this city, this team and our supporters. I loved this team from the first time I steped on BMO filed and heard the south end sing. I felt at home. I just want us to win. Is trying to win not the point of competition?

ExiledRed
04-16-2009, 05:43 PM
. Is trying to win not the point of competition?

No silly, it's all about having fun and taking part.

I swear we should have Tim Hortons on the front of our shirts instead of BMO.

trane
04-16-2009, 05:52 PM
^ MLS= Timbits league ( or whatever it is called)

TFC RealDeal RPB
04-16-2009, 06:03 PM
wow. Yet another negative thread, what a surprise. :rolleyes:

Mods, can we merge all of these stupid threads into one giant-mega-hate-filled-superthread? Maybe even sticky it so that the same five people can keep posting the criticism for all to read.

Well what do u want from us, the MLSE are loser's. As long as the seat's full and we keep byin there shit, why do they need to win ? :noidea:

ua-kozak_TFC
04-16-2009, 06:21 PM
some of these guys have been calling for Mo's head for going on 3 years now, and now Carver is getting the stick...but when it all comes down to...we are still a new franchise like it or not...we are a good decade behind most MLS clubs and that cannot be made up in 3 years...
Yea you are right ... your rule is a stroke of genious:rolleyes:....That means that we are expected to have a cup sooner than SanJose and Seattle.... why do i doubt that we will... ???
That is the most ridiculous statement i haev ever read... what you are assuming is that the coachign and managing has no effect on the team and somehow after 10 years everythign just happens and you win an MLS cup... meaning that if for some reason a random like me was hired i would take TFC to greatness if you give em enough time???? That is crazy talk...Yea i think i should probably apply to TFC as Manager of soccer and tell them that in 100 years i will make TFC as big as Manchester and Barcelona... And if they are dumb enough to hire me the only way to CORRECTLY judging my progress would be to wait out the 100 years...
Do you see now how rediculous your statement is....??

ua-kozak_TFC
04-16-2009, 06:23 PM
No silly, it's all about having fun and taking part.

I swear we should have Tim Hortons on the front of our shirts instead of BMO.
OR EVEN BETTER we could rename TFC as Timbits Football CLub...

trane
04-16-2009, 06:50 PM
^ Pefecto.

TFC USA
04-16-2009, 07:32 PM
Why are you guys arguing with mighty? He is not interested in logic, other people's opinions, or success in a reasonable amount of time.

That's why he's on my ignore list. I get fecking tired with stupidity.


As for the thread. The excuse ends this year. IF we underachieve (not win the NCC, not even make the playoffs) then housecleaning needs to be done.

Mighty, Chivas USA made the playoffs in their 2nd god damn year after being an embarrassment in year 1 and Real Salt Lake made it in their 4th so don't give me that "5 year plan" crap that you and Mo have bought into.

IF this roster and coaching staff can't produce results, then some people need to get axed.

giambac
04-16-2009, 07:47 PM
Yeah I agree with most of what you say, I'm just not as nice :) Here is my definition of them doing well.

* 1st round of the playoffs
* Win the Canada Cup
* Play better footie then what I saw last 2 years and the first 4 games of the season

That's the minimum expectations I have. Anything short of that and I am convinced Carver needs to go. Heck if we aren't playing well and if we lose to USL teams by mid way through the season, then I hope to God Carver is gone. If Mo doesn't get a striker and a CB by the end of the year (without trading someone major on the team) then he should go to.

Pachuco,

this is more than a fair assessment. If they don't meet the goals as listed above then something has to give......

jloome
04-16-2009, 07:51 PM
wDeRo has been in the
league long enough...he should not be placing a penalty kick long over
the bar as in KC:mad:

It's expert analysis like this that makes visits here worthwhile.:rolleyes:

I'll remember to call FIFA up tomorrow and tell them to fire Michel Platini.

Dirk Diggler
04-16-2009, 07:56 PM
I think there's too many people that have gotten their love of this game from glory-hunting and supporting perennial top teams in England, Spain and Italy. Teams that fire managers for only only winning one trophy. I have no idea why everybody feels this sense of entitlement of success. To think we should be challenging for the cup every year is ridiculous.

With the make up of the league in the next few years we will do well to make the playoffs 5 out of 10 years, and win the league 5-10 times a century. We have no advantage over other teams in this league. We sell more than average tickets and we really care about the team but how does that help?

Real football teams lose all the fucking time.

Are you shitting me? You are telling us that people in Toronto have become so used to supporting perennial power houses that we don't know how to deal with losses? Get off your high horse man. If there is one thing most sports fans here know, it is losing.

ua-kozak_TFC
04-17-2009, 07:01 AM
where is mighty-torontofc-2008 and the rest now? All these Mo whores (I wouldn;t be surprised if soem of these get payed for posting on here...) all they like to do is talk shit and call you a hater or a pesimist... but when a good point comes up that changes their thinking, they just dissappear...

Fort York Redcoat
04-17-2009, 07:20 AM
It's possible to win this league in the first year. It's happened. That doesn't mean it's likely. 3-5 year build seems like enough time to make some mistakes and still grow a contender.

Hater. Pessimist. I think most times it's just different levels of frustration at losing.

It's allowed.

Beach_Red
04-17-2009, 08:53 AM
where is mighty-torontofc-2008 and the rest now? All these Mo whores (I wouldn;t be surprised if soem of these get payed for posting on here...) all they like to do is talk shit and call you a hater or a pesimist... but when a good point comes up that changes their thinking, they just dissappear...

What exactly was your good point? We want to win right now. Of course we do.

People disagree over what should be done right now - some feel the roster is still too weak and some feel the coaching tactics are bad. Well, that's a sports discussion I've been hearing for forty years and I've seen both attempts to fix it - firing the coach and changing players. Niether one is a gauranteed success. I've also seen teams make very few changes and start winning a lot more.

Walnut
04-17-2009, 09:09 AM
wow. Yet another negative thread, what a surprise. :rolleyes:

Mods, can we merge all of these stupid threads into one giant-mega-hate-filled-superthread? Maybe even sticky it so that the same five people can keep posting the criticism for all to read.

Perhaps they should be deleted, and replaced with one giant blind support for Mo & Carver thread?

ua-kozak_TFC
04-17-2009, 09:45 AM
What exactly was your good point? We want to win right now. Of course we do.

People disagree over what should be done right now - some feel the roster is still too weak and some feel the coaching tactics are bad. Well, that's a sports discussion I've been hearing for forty years and I've seen both attempts to fix it - firing the coach and changing players. Niether one is a gauranteed success. I've also seen teams make very few changes and start winning a lot more.
I think it is probably a little bit of both... I don;t think Carver is the best coach but he;s definetly an improovemenet on Mo...
Now in carver's defence, does he have a team of players that could make an impact? Definetly not (there are a few exceptionvitti amado and dero)...the depth of a team is usually judged by how deep is their bench... and we at this moment in time have NO ONE(aside from vitti) that can come in and make an impact on the game... All we ahve is players that are just FRESH legs... but none of them would be able to change a game arround...and to be competitive in this league or any league you need to have a number of options that can turn the game arround if needed in second half... and defence don;t get me started... if harmse gets a red and serioux gets injured... what ta heck will we do?
So on the agenda if i was MLSE... if Mo by the end of the season doesn;t improove the squad... i would send him packing with my shoe stack in his ass...
NOW the problem is.. that MLSE is soccer illeterate... and the most experienced soccer personas are Carver and Mo in this club... so even if they wanted to fire him? they would have no idea who to hire next... Carver on the other hand highly depends on how good of a job Mo does to bring new players.. so i would give him a chance stilll...But his is a vicious cycle... and as sad as it is... Mo and carver are the guys with the most soccer experience and since MLSE are soccer illiterate atleast MO will be here for LONG time... I would be surprised if TFC screw up they just fire carver....

IF i was the exec of the board ...And tfc doesn;t make the play offs... I would do some house cleaning i would fire both carver and MO and combine both of their salaries to get someone decent from South America or Europe... for that money and that will do the job just as well.. OR if i want to save some money i would hire someone within the MLS that does Both coaching and player acquisitions (Nichols) for less than MO is getting payed... i think he was getting 250k a year ago.. not sure where that number is right now (MO is getting 400k...). The second option is probably smarter due to the Cap restriction...

We are STuck and we are stuck for LONG!!!

ua-kozak_TFC
04-17-2009, 09:51 AM
What exactly was your good point?

It wasn;t a POINt.. it was just showing that the 5 year plan is a bogus... and you can see whether the goal is going to be accomplished before that... as far as i can remember the 5 year plan was to WIN or contest for an MLS Cup(meaning reaching the final)... So i think year 3 is a good target for reach the play offs....

Phil
04-17-2009, 09:57 AM
They are in an ongoing process of improving the team to make it more competitive. There is a plan in place, not sure how close they are to a 5 year model but I know that TFC is intrested in upgrading the team at any opportunity.

Do I think the 'new team' excuse should still be used? No. The time has passed and they have served notice to all the fans and supporters - they are looking at getting talent.

Is it as fast as we want it? Nope. We want it all now, don't we. I know I do. But I am also willing to give them a bit of space to improve. Hopefully the salary caps are expanded a bit so that the league can get more competitive as a whole.

Beach_Red
04-17-2009, 10:20 AM
IF i was the exec of the board ...And tfc doesn;t make the play offs... I would do some house cleaning i would fire both carver and MO and combine both of their salaries to get someone decent from South America or Europe... for that money and that will do the job just as well.. OR if i want to save some money i would hire someone within the MLS that does Both coaching and player acquisitions (Nichols) for less than MO is getting payed... i think he was getting 250k a year ago.. not sure where that number is right now (MO is getting 400k...). The second option is probably smarter due to the Cap restriction...

We are STuck and we are stuck for LONG!!!

Do you think the players now are better than the players in the first season and in the second? If they're no better, then you're right, the team is stuck. If some of the players are better then the team is improving. True, it's not improving fast enough for us but I would say in these two home games the team underperformed.

This is probably the last year for this management if they don't make the playoffs. Of course, be prepared that new management will want to put their own stamp on the team so that will be like starting over and take a few more years. Any manager brought in will ask for 3 years to "turn the team around" (5 was only because they were starting from scratch). I mean, if a guy came in to interview for the job and said even under MLS roster restrictions and salary cap he could completely turn the team around in one year, would you believe him? Do you think any manager would accept a one year contract? No, they'd ask for at least three and the first year of that contract would see a huge amount of player changes that would either pay off or not in the second year.

Let's see where this team is after 10 games before we decide we're completely stuck. You may be right, but I hope not because I don't want to start over again.