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TFCREDNWHITE
04-14-2009, 06:19 PM
Look i love this team just like the next guy! I love this team so much that it hurts me! seriously it causes me anxiety and physical pain!! I'm sorry for venting but it needs to be done...


First off i'd like to say i love DeRo! I think he is a Champion and a great player...

Secondly,

FUCK THIS TEAM!! I'm so sick of inconsistancy!!! I'm so sick of the same old shit over and over and over again!!

OUR BACKLINE IS CRAP!!! PERIOD. ABSOLUTE CRAP! and with NO reinforcements its gonna be the same old story again this year! Harmse is shit, Velez is no better really, Serioux needs a Strong CB partner!

OUR MIDS CAN'T SEEM TO WORK together if their life depended on it, ricketts sucks, cronin is NOT the answer, Guevara is sometimes in the game and sometimes out to lunch, Robbo can't do it on his own!

OUR STRIKERS CAN'T PULL THEIR SHIT TOGETHER! ZERO GOALS!! ZERO!!! WTF!?

NO DP!! NO DP!? WTF? People say why?? I SAY WHY NOT!! I want to challenge for the cup! doesn't everyone want to be a Champion like DeRo!!??

signed with passion and pain.....:(:(:(:(:(:(

reggie
04-14-2009, 06:21 PM
because 20k fill that place every game and mo is way over his head...

Kevvv
04-14-2009, 06:25 PM
Is the regular font broken or something?

Pachuco
04-14-2009, 06:25 PM
Since this is the why we will suck this year thread, I have only one thing to say

Carver :)

H Bomb
04-14-2009, 06:26 PM
boooooooorrrrrrring take it to bigsoccer man

TFCREDNWHITE
04-14-2009, 06:27 PM
Since this is the why we will suck this year thread, I have only one thing to say

Carver :)

I seriously don't think thats the problem..What about all the reasons i mentioned in the Original Post??

BC101
04-14-2009, 06:28 PM
boooooooorrrrrrring take it to bigsoccer man
Never the TFC section is our very OWN big soccer.

H Bomb
04-14-2009, 06:28 PM
true enough :)

MrHawk
04-14-2009, 06:28 PM
Does typing in large font make you seem smarter?

TFCREDNWHITE
04-14-2009, 06:28 PM
boooooooorrrrrrring take it to bigsoccer man

Why?? I've been on this RPB forum since its inception....Why not just chime in?? whats the big deal!!! I'm sure you of all people have an opinion on why we suck!?

Ageroo
04-14-2009, 06:28 PM
Is the regular font broken or something?

I thought it was an eye test when I came in the thread.....with the gradual increasing font and all.....:p

Ageroo
04-14-2009, 06:30 PM
Why?? I've been on this RPB forum since its inception....Why not just chime in?? whats the big deal!!! I'm sure you of all people have an opinion on why we suck!?

I choose to support my team .......I am a homer.....so regardless I will FOLLOW! Good, bad and horrible....THIS IS MY TEAM!

excuse the BOLD......AND CAPS! :D

TFCREDNWHITE
04-14-2009, 06:30 PM
Does typing in large font make you seem smarter?

nope? but i can see how someone of your stature would think so...:cool:

H Bomb
04-14-2009, 06:30 PM
Why?? I've been on this RPB forum since its inception....Why not just chime in?? whats the big deal!!! I'm sure you of all people have an opinion on why we suck!?

me of all people eh? :eek:

but yeah, i'm not thrilled...but nothing you said hasnt been said every day pretty much since the inception of the board...making it old....and booooooorrrring

TFCREDNWHITE
04-14-2009, 06:31 PM
I choose to support my team .......I am a homer.....so regardless I will FOLLOW! Good, bad and horrible....THIS IS MY TEAM!

excuse the BOLD......AND CAPS! :D


LOL :p

TFCREDNWHITE
04-14-2009, 06:32 PM
me of all people eh? :eek:

but yeah, i'm not thrilled...but nothing you said hasnt been said every day pretty much since the inception of the board...making it old....and booooooorrrring

So how do we turn it around???? Somethings gotta give no???

TFC_Toon
04-14-2009, 06:33 PM
Good things sometimes, takes time...oh, and they need to raise the salary cap.

H Bomb
04-14-2009, 06:35 PM
So how do we turn it around???? Somethings gotta give no???

see the other team on my avatar?...i have no history of winning so i can't relate to those who do:D

I think they are trying to get a good CB..to not would be irrational so that's not really an option....that's pretty much all I think

Pachuco
04-14-2009, 06:37 PM
Good things sometimes, takes time...oh, and they need to raise the salary cap.

I've never understood the salary cap argument. What do you expect, that other teams won't use the money allocated in the new cap? this is a funny argument.

TFC_Toon
04-14-2009, 06:37 PM
see the other team on my avatar?...i have no history of winning so i can't relate to those who do:D

I think they are trying to get a good CB..to not would be irrational so that's not really an option....that's pretty much all I think

Know what you mean H Bomb, as a matter of fact we may pass each other as City is possibly promoted and Newcastle possibly relegated.

H Bomb
04-14-2009, 06:38 PM
send us a few players when you pass through would ya? :D:D:drinking:

AL-MO
04-14-2009, 06:38 PM
See PM TFCR&W.

Keyman
04-14-2009, 06:40 PM
How about we just fire everyone?

Hustle
04-14-2009, 06:41 PM
Is the regular font broken or something?





:rofl:

TFC_Toon
04-14-2009, 06:41 PM
send us a few players when you pass through would ya? :D:D:drinking:

Aye, there would for sure be some available if we go for the drop.

Pachuco
04-14-2009, 06:41 PM
I choose to support my team .......I am a homer.....so regardless I will FOLLOW! Good, bad and horrible....THIS IS MY TEAM!

excuse the BOLD......AND CAPS! :D

I support them to. This is my team too.

1. I spend a good percentage of my day glued to Toronto FC related news
2. I spend $1800 on season tickets
3. I buy $12 beers at BMO (3 or 4 per game)
4. I own more TFC merchandise then I do clothes all together.
5. I chant all game long until I lose my voice
6. I follow Ricketts on Twitter ;)

and there are many more reasons why I support this team.

On the other hand, I come on here and vent and complain about the team, nothing wrong with that. I am much more of a supporter then alot of people in this city. Also, people who don't complain on these boards or choose to be positive all the time are supporters the same way I am.

jrey
04-14-2009, 06:43 PM
I admit that I was extremely disheartened with the late goal by Dallas this past week, and I even said to my friend after the game, "I don't pay money to be depressed."

While that is true, this team gives me so much more, good results or not. I feel like I'm a part of something great, and it will be all the more satisfying when the results come on the field.

We are only four games into the season -- who knows what will happen from here. Keep the faith.

Rocco
04-14-2009, 06:47 PM
I thought it was an eye test when I came in the thread.....with the gradual increasing font and all.....:p

oh wait, so it isn't an eye test? oh damn it, i was covering my left eye while reading this all along!

in other news, yea i still can't read it too well. It hurts my eyes. Time for new glasses.

Ageroo
04-14-2009, 06:48 PM
On the other hand, I come on here and vent and complain about the team, nothing wrong with that. I am much more of a supporter then alot of people in this city. Also, people who don't complain on these boards or choose to be positive all the time are supporters the same way I am.

I feel your passion and pain just the same and not trying to single out anyone....and definitely not trying to say that complaining is anti-support....

Just my perspective on my support...not for all, but I am a true Homer....Argos...crap...Leafs...crap...Jays...crap ...Raptors...crap....I am Toronto til' I die....and in my lifetime there have not been tons of winners..but the product on the field is what we have at the moment and I choose to support them the best I can. If that means paying for my seasons seats and watching a losing team I will do it....not because I am a clone of MLSE, but because I will always support any team this city puts out. :)

Rocco
04-14-2009, 06:51 PM
6. I follow Ricketts on Twitter ;)



oh yea? well I follow Ricketts AND Dichio on Twitter!!! I'm a holier supporter than thou! :Angel_anim:

napoli73
04-14-2009, 06:51 PM
Because we lack creative ball distribution....and a quality striker

trane
04-14-2009, 06:52 PM
We do not need to suck this year, we still have time to fix the problem. We just need to face them and solve them

billyfly
04-14-2009, 06:52 PM
Obviously you didn't see my other thread and this:

http://www.sportsclubstats.com/USA/MLS.html

Beach_Red
04-14-2009, 06:52 PM
I seriously don't think thats the problem..What about all the reasons i mentioned in the Original Post??

You mentioned four things in the original post.

1) The backline is crap. there are many teams in MLS with backlines no better than these guys (and some whose are worse) who get better results. Maybe it's not all coaching, but really, do you think we're getting the most out of these guys?

2) Our mids can't play together. That seems like something the coach should be dealing with, no?

3) Our strikers can't finish. We have one striker who can finish but he starts every game on the bench and comes in with about ten minutes left in games. Again, seems like a coaching decision.

4) No DP. I agree, we should have a DP. The last one who was available and willing to come to MLS was Ljundburg and he would have been fine, you're right, we should have him instead of Seattle.

So, if you don't want to change the coach, what would be the best way to correct these problems?

TFCREDNWHITE
04-14-2009, 06:56 PM
You mentioned four things in the original post.

1) The backline is crap. there are many teams in MLS with backlines no better than these guys (and some whose are worse) who get better results. Maybe it's not all coaching, but really, do you think we're getting the most out of these guys?

2) Our mids can't play together. That seems like something the coach should be dealing with, no?

3) Our strikers can't finish. We have one striker who can finish but he starts every game on the bench and comes in with about ten minutes left in games. Again, seems like a coaching decision.

4) No DP. I agree, we should have a DP. The last one who was available and willing to come to MLS was Ljundburg and he would have been fine, you're right, we should have him instead of Seattle.

So, if you don't want to change the coach, what would be the best way to correct these problems?


You tell me...Is changing the coach the only answer you subscribe too??

T_Mizz
04-14-2009, 06:56 PM
I think this thread is a bit premature, first off, strikers go through slumps, I could still see Barrett and Vitti both getting 10 goals this season, because when one of their simultaneous slumps ends he'll help the other one out of theirs. Secondly, Cronin is NOT the answer you say? I'm not sure that statement is completely fair to say about a rookie just FOUR games into a THIRTY game season. Give this man time to develop, he's already one of the best midfielders we have. Also, staying with the midfield, Guevara is one so far this season he's played 3 games I believe and had 2 goals, he seems to know what he's doing thus far. And I would not say that the problem is Carver, he's doing the best with what he has: a leak in the backline so big super mario couldn't fix it, and strikers that clearly are slumping right now. Long post made short: BE PATIENT, GIVE THEM TIME.

trane
04-14-2009, 06:58 PM
beachred,

As you know I agree.

I always feel comepled to put a disclaimer, I would like to see Carver succed, but the signs are that he may not be.

trane
04-14-2009, 07:00 PM
I think this thread is a bit premature, first off, strikers go through slumps, I could still see Barrett and Vitti both getting 10 goals this season, because when one of their simultaneous slumps ends he'll help the other one out of theirs. Secondly, Cronin is NOT the answer you say? I'm not sure that statement is completely fair to say about a rookie just FOUR games into a THIRTY game season. Give this man time to develop, he's already one of the best midfielders we have. Also, staying with the midfield, Guevara is one so far this season he's played 3 games I believe and had 2 goals, he seems to know what he's doing thus far. And I would not say that the problem is Carver, he's doing the best with what he has: a leak in the backline so big super mario couldn't fix it, and strikers that clearly are slumping right now. Long post made short: BE PATIENT, GIVE THEM TIME.


In reply to this, we are only four games in, I will realy ExiledRed's post, that puts it into perspective;

Yes, but if we fail again, and we get a bunch of new faces at the start of next season and still suck 4 games in, do we wait till summer to see if the "boat is righted?"

Essentially that is what's happening here. Everything you wrote could have been written at the beginning of last season, and he we are debating how it's only been 4 games.

The boat sank, last year.

The navigator survived and his new ship is taking water rapidly.

Are we waiting to see if the boat rights itself, or if it sinks again, or are we going to bail out the water and patch up the hull?

Ageroo
04-14-2009, 07:00 PM
You mentioned four things in the original post.

1) The backline is crap. there are many teams in MLS with backlines no better than these guys (and some whose are worse) who get better results. Maybe it's not all coaching, but really, do you think we're getting the most out of these guys?

2) Our mids can't play together. That seems like something the coach should be dealing with, no?

3) Our strikers can't finish. We have one striker who can finish but he starts every game on the bench and comes in with about ten minutes left in games. Again, seems like a coaching decision.

4) No DP. I agree, we should have a DP. The last one who was available and willing to come to MLS was Ljundburg and he would have been fine, you're right, we should have him instead of Seattle.

So, if you don't want to change the coach, what would be the best way to correct these problems?

In answer to your #1 and there are better back lines who are worse than we are...(Columbus)

#2 Chemistry is not automatic......alot of new faces in the mid...and how many games have they played as a unit????? my opinion is give it time.....

#3...can't argue too much there....but Carver is not shooting the ball or deciding to hold the ball when shooting is the best option....not necessarily coaching, but maybe more motivating....

#4 DP does not solve all ills......(ie. Beckham, Donovan, I think Denilson when he was in Dallas) sure it is nice, but one man does not make a team.....but it does help to have an experienced man...I will give you that...

Not sure how to change things, but not sure it is a coaching issue....parts maybe, but I think a man needs more than a season at the helm before I will raise any eyebrows....

T_Mizz
04-14-2009, 07:02 PM
3) Our strikers can't finish. We have one striker who can finish but he starts every game on the bench and comes in with about ten minutes left in games. Again, seems like a coaching decision.

How many goals has Dichio scored this year? 12 already isn't it?

trane
04-14-2009, 07:02 PM
So what I get, we should not worry, it is not a coaching issue, and not a player issue, we just need to waite , like we did last season, and things will get better.

trane
04-14-2009, 07:04 PM
How many goals has Dichio scored this year? 12 already isn't it?

Are you serious? How many minutes has he played?

T_Mizz
04-14-2009, 07:05 PM
In reply to this, we are only four games in, I will realy ExiledRed's post, that puts it into perspective;

Yes, but if we fail again, and we get a bunch of new faces at the start of next season and still suck 4 games in, do we wait till summer to see if the "boat is righted?"

Essentially that is what's happening here. Everything you wrote could have been written at the beginning of last season, and he we are debating how it's only been 4 games.

The boat sank, last year.

The navigator survived and his new ship is taking water rapidly.

Are we waiting to see if the boat rights itself, or if it sinks again, or are we going to bail out the water and patch up the hull?
Did people really think we were playoff bound last season? I'm pretty sure that was optimistic to say the least, it was our second year and we had the same shitty team we had to end year one, we improved a lot and that was good but now I agree theplayoffs need to be our goal. What I'm saying is that its still on the table, no reason to jump ship now:D

T_Mizz
04-14-2009, 07:07 PM
Are you serious? How many minutes has he played?
exactly 79, but all I'm saying is that you can't just trust that he'll score if he plays, I mean before the season people would've thought Vitti would have at least 2 by now but until it happens nothing is certain

Ageroo
04-14-2009, 07:07 PM
Did people really think we were playoff bound last season? I'm pretty sure that was optimistic to say the least, it was our second year and we had the same shitty team we had to end year one, we improved a lot and that was good but now I agree theplayoffs need to be our goal. What I'm saying is that its still on the table, no reason to jump ship EVER:D

Fixed!

Derko
04-14-2009, 07:08 PM
nope? but i can see how someone of your stature would think so...:cool:

I actually felt the frustration as I read the original post!!

ginkster88
04-14-2009, 07:08 PM
I don't know what Vitti is doing on the bench. He missed the first game, played without Guevara and Robinson vs. Columbus, scored against Seattle (but was robbed), then didn't play any meaningful minutes vs. Dallas. That's one goal in two games. Not bad. I don't know why he isn't out there every game.

T_Mizz
04-14-2009, 07:08 PM
So what I get, we should not worry, it is not a coaching issue, and not a player issue, we just need to waite , like we did last season, and things will get better.
Again, last season the playoffs were out of the question going in, so you can't compare it, the team wasn''t expected to do anything so its not like we were let down

TFCREDNWHITE
04-14-2009, 07:09 PM
So what I get, we should not worry, it is not a coaching issue, and not a player issue, we just need to waite , like we did last season, and things will get better.


+1 Exactly, WHAT in the world is everybody saying??

"just wait it out.."

I have been waiting for the last two years...I'm worried that this "new" ship is sinking..

T_Mizz
04-14-2009, 07:09 PM
Fixed!
Thanks I knew something was wrong:D

Beach_Red
04-14-2009, 07:10 PM
I always feel comepled to put a disclaimer, I would like to see Carver succed, but the signs are that he may not be.


I would very much like Carver to succeed. I liked him from the moment he got here. There were many times last year when he had the team playing extremely well - often he had them playing over their heads - he had a team with almost no starters in Colorado and they won. They had many other very good games last year.

But it does take time to build consistency and there is still time.

trane
04-14-2009, 07:10 PM
exactly 79, but all I'm saying is that you can't just trust that he'll score if he plays, I mean before the season people would've thought Vitti would have at least 2 by now but until it happens nothing is certain


So he has not played even one full game, a good striker score once in every three games, meaning 270 minutes. Give him time he will score. But again it is not just that he will score he makes the players around him more effective, by holding the ball, passing, bringing the ball down, ect. ect. ect.

TFCREDNWHITE
04-14-2009, 07:12 PM
Again, last season the playoffs were out of the question going in, so you can't compare it, the team wasn''t expected to do anything so its not like we were let down

Why are the playoffs in the cards for every other team, but NOT us??

I expect a winning attitude always! Our Academy team was expected to lose against Tigres and AC Milan, but they didn't did they!?

Always win at all costs!

T_Mizz
04-14-2009, 07:12 PM
But it does take time to build consistency and there is still time.
Exactly, 26 + 4 Games worth of time

ExiledRed
04-14-2009, 07:13 PM
exactly 79, but all I'm saying is that you can't just trust that he'll score if he plays, I mean before the season people would've thought Vitti would have at least 2 by now but until it happens nothing is certain

Now you're being silly. Nobody said that Dichio is guaranteed to score, only that he can actually finish when the opportunity arises, and the team is more likely to play cohesively if he's on the pitch.

Peoples expectations of Vitti were baseless, expectations of Dichio are based upon actual performances in a TFC shirt.

Beach_Red
04-14-2009, 07:14 PM
Again, last season the playoffs were out of the question going in, so you can't compare it, the team wasn''t expected to do anything so its not like we were let down

No, last season the playoffs weren't out of the question. In fact, it was very late in the season that we were eliminated from the playoffs. And, if you look at the 10 best games the team played last year they did look like a playoff team. The problem is the worst 10 games they played were awful. If they ever get any consistency the playoffs are easily within reach.

Maybe the bigger disappointment last year was the Canadian Championship. I'm very glad there have been a lot of roster improvements since then.

T_Mizz
04-14-2009, 07:15 PM
Why are the playoffs in the cards for every other team, but NOT us??

I expect a winning attitude always! Our Academy team was expected to lose against Tigres and AC Milan, but they didn't did they!?

Always win at all costs!
Look that's a great attitude for a player to have NOT a supporter, you can't always expect to win because you'll be guarenteed to be let down unless you support Man U. And the playoffs were not in the cards for every other team last season, San Jose didn't think they'd make the playoffs. This year will happen just stick it out

ExiledRed
04-14-2009, 07:16 PM
Exactly, 26 + 4 Games worth of time

We dont have 30 games worth of time, that's how long the season is, not how long we have to learn how to play together.

Pre-season is when were supposed to develop the team and learn how to play together. Seattle did it straight away, we're three years in and our players still dont know where each other is on the pitch.

trane
04-14-2009, 07:16 PM
I can not believe that some of us are on these boards, arguing with others that we should expect our team to compete and win. How are our expectation unreasonable.

T_Mizz
04-14-2009, 07:16 PM
No, last season the playoffs weren't out of the question. In fact, it was very late in the season that we were eliminated from the playoffs. And, if you look at the 10 best games the team played last year they did look like a playoff team. The problem is the worst 10 games they played were awful. If they ever get any consistency the playoffs are easily within reach.

Maybe the bigger disappointment last year was the Canadian Championship. I'm very glad there have been a lot of roster improvements since then.
Exactly we were elated when we were still mathematically in the hunt but show me one preseason prediction that had TFC even sniffing the postseason.

Blazer
04-14-2009, 07:17 PM
Look i love this team just like the next guy! I love this team so much that it hurts me! seriously it causes me anxiety and physical pain!! I'm sorry for venting but it needs to be done...


First off i'd like to say i love DeRo! I think he is a Champion and a great player...

Secondly,

FUCK THIS TEAM!! I'm so sick of inconsistancy!!! I'm so sick of the same old shit over and over and over again!!

OUR BACKLINE IS CRAP!!! PERIOD. ABSOLUTE CRAP! and with NO reinforcements its gonna be the same old story again this year! Harmse is shit, Velez is no better really, Serioux needs a Strong CB partner!

OUR MIDS CAN'T SEEM TO WORK together if their life depended on it, ricketts sucks, cronin is NOT the answer, Guevara is sometimes in the game and sometimes out to lunch, Robbo can't do it on his own!

OUR STRIKERS CAN'T PULL THEIR SHIT TOGETHER! ZERO GOALS!! ZERO!!! WTF!?

NO DP!! NO DP!? WTF? People say why?? I SAY WHY NOT!! I want to challenge for the cup! doesn't everyone want to be a Champion like DeRo!!??

signed with passion and pain.....:(:(:(:(:(:(

http://middlezonemusings.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/panic_button.jpg

trane
04-14-2009, 07:18 PM
We dont have 30 games worth of time, that's how long the season is, not how long we have to learn how to play together.

Pre-season is when were supposed to develop the team and learn how to play together. Seattle did it straight away, we're three years in and our players still dont know where each other is on the pitch.

That is the biggest problem. In the last game of last season, we looked like a team that has never played together. We have not looked much at times this year. That is what worries me most.

T_Mizz
04-14-2009, 07:18 PM
I can not believe that some of us are on these boards, arguing with others that we should expect our team to compete and win. How are our expectation unreasonable.
Look this year I totally think TFC belongs in the Playoffs and anyting short is complete bullshit, but people need to calm down, the sky is not falling, our last two games have had less than desirable outcomes, but good times will come again.

TFCREDNWHITE
04-14-2009, 07:21 PM
I would very much like Carver to succeed. I liked him from the moment he got here. There were many times last year when he had the team playing extremely well - often he had them playing over their heads - he had a team with almost no starters in Colorado and they won. They had many other very good games last year.

But it does take time to build consistency and there is still time.

yeah and leafs fans have been waiting for practically 50 years!!

76'ers -- 1983

Eagles -- 1960

Especially in the MLS, there is such parity that it doesn't make any sense to wait 10 years or even 5 years!!?? Teams in the MLS should be evenly matched for the most part...

TFCREDNWHITE
04-14-2009, 07:21 PM
http://middlezonemusings.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/panic_button.jpg


HAHHAHAHAH LOL, yeah i know....:p:p:canada:

T_Mizz
04-14-2009, 07:26 PM
yeah and leafs fans have been waiting for practically 50 years!!

76'ers -- 1983

Eagles -- 1960

Especially in the MLS, there is such parity that it doesn't make any sense to wait 10 years or even 5 years!!?? Teams in the MLS should be evenly matched for the most part...
Parity is the type of thing you see in North American Leagues, so if you want to say that it exists then you need to be prepared to wait, look at expansion teams in ANY North American Sport, The Browns stink, the Texans are still only 8-8, the Bobcats still stink, the Wild haven't won yet, the Blue Jackets haven't won yet, the Thrashers haven't won yet, hell the Sens still haven't won. COOL YOUR TITS everyone, you cannot expect expansion teams to be too good too quick, I think with the team we have we're spoiled because the expectation to win is there, only because the team is so good on paper

ExiledRed
04-14-2009, 07:27 PM
yeah and leafs fans have been waiting for practically 50 years!!

76'ers -- 1983

Eagles -- 1960

Especially in the MLS, there is such parity that it doesn't make any sense to wait 10 years or even 5 years!!?? Teams in the MLS should be evenly matched for the most part...

Starting out from scratch was the perfect opportunity to build a team that could beat this league. Now we have a bunch of sub par players on our squad, that task is much harder.

With low expectations, we merely built a team that could exist in the league. We signed whatever mediocre player came in front of us, especially if they were canadian. "You're a defender? You're canadian? you have some pro experience (sort of)? you're in!"

Seattle took the opportunity, and they're already teaching the league a lesson in quality football.

T_Mizz
04-14-2009, 07:29 PM
Starting out from scratch was the perfect opportunity to build a team that could beat this league. Now we have a bunch of sub par players on our squad, that task is much harder.

With low expectations, we merely built a team that could exist in the league. We signed whatever mediocre player came in front of us, especially if they were canadian. "You're a defender? You're canadian? you have some pro experience (sort of)? you're in!"

Seattle took the opportunity, and they're already teaching the league a lesson in quality football.
Its tough being a Canadian team with the domestic rules, that's why when they re-evaluated the situation they gave us more internationals.

Beach_Red
04-14-2009, 07:30 PM
Especially in the MLS, there is such parity that it doesn't make any sense to wait 10 years or even 5 years!!?? Teams in the MLS should be evenly matched for the most part...

And roster-wise, they are. On Saturday did Dallas have many players who are better than ours? When we played Seattle they really only had one player stand out and their top scorer wasn't even playing. Was the rest of their roster really that much better than ours?

In leagues with parity (really we mean salary cap, and it's true it creates parity) you're never going to have a roster that much better than any other team's.

So why do some teams win more than others?

TFCREDNWHITE
04-14-2009, 07:31 PM
So what if the first 4 games are indicative of whats to come????

well so far we have 1 win 1 loss and 2 ties

that means that by that stat, at the end of the season we will have

8 wins 7 losses 15 ties which is 39 points which means NO PLAYOFFS!

Beach_Red
04-14-2009, 07:32 PM
With low expectations, we merely built a team that could exist in the league. We signed whatever mediocre player came in front of us, especially if they were canadian. "You're a defender? You're canadian? you have some pro experience (sort of)? you're in!"


I think it's more likely we signed whatever player was willing to come to a brand new team in Toronto. Would you have? I mean, you still call yourself an Exile ;).

T_Mizz
04-14-2009, 07:32 PM
And roster-wise, they are. On Saturday did Dallas have many players who are better than ours? When we played Seattle they really only had one player stand out and their top scorer wasn't even playing. Was the rest of their roster really that much better than ours?

In leagues with parity (really we mean salary cap, and it's true it creates parity) you're never going to have a roster that much better than any other team's.

So why do some teams win more than others?
Manipulation of the cap and negotiation, do not ask me how every team in this league has some kind of bargain but we have backups making 200k, either nobody wants to come to Canada or Mo isn't the strongest negotiator

TFCREDNWHITE
04-14-2009, 07:33 PM
Parity is the type of thing you see in North American Leagues, so if you want to say that it exists then you need to be prepared to wait, look at expansion teams in ANY North American Sport, The Browns stink, the Texans are still only 8-8, the Bobcats still stink, the Wild haven't won yet, the Blue Jackets haven't won yet, the Thrashers haven't won yet, hell the Sens still haven't won. COOL YOUR TITS everyone, you cannot expect expansion teams to be too good too quick, I think with the team we have we're spoiled because the expectation to win is there, only because the team is so good on paper

How about the Chicago Fire???

How about Seattle so far??

How about Columbus competing in their first year??

T_Mizz
04-14-2009, 07:37 PM
So what if the first 4 games are indicative of whats to come????

well so far we have 1 win 1 loss and 2 ties

that means that by that stat, at the end of the season we will have

8 wins 7 losses 15 ties which is 39 points which means NO PLAYOFFS!
Since when are 4 games ever indicative of a season? unless you're talking NFL but the blue jays are 6-2 in their first 8 but does that mean they're going to go 122-40? I hope so:D

TFCREDNWHITE
04-14-2009, 07:39 PM
+1 to Jack's other post....

Originally Posted by Jack http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/redbar/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=467578#post467578)
While I don't espouse Giambac's "fire everyone" mentality, I must admit I am less than impressed by our start to the season and the excuses are starting to wear thin.

How long before eternal optimism turns into a disconnection from reality?

It's time for this team to start delivering. We've had enough time to put something together. We've had enough time to get the players working together and get some sort of tactical consistency going, but it just hasn't happened.

There is no cohesion. We don't look like a team, we look like a collection of players. Many passes go to open space or to the other team instead of to teammates. We still have a gaping hole in the middle of our defense. We still haven't had a goal from our forwards. If Barrett were just "in a slump" I wouldn't mind, but I've seen him miss two sitters that he has no business missing. This has now cost us a win. I've also seen him involved in the buildup only to screw it up and shoot high or wide or lose the ball. It got to the point on Saturday where I was hoping he wouldn't be the one getting the ball when we were pressuring their area.

So far, after four games, I don't see last year's problems as being fixed. Still no goals and still terrible defensively. There is no one to marshall the defense and yell at Serioux when he gets running around. No one to read the play and tell Robbo or Cronin when to pressure or when to lay off.

The only upgrade we've had is in goal, where Frei has been very solid in his two outings. If not for him, I doubt we would have come away with a point on Saturday or from Columbus, where he made a couple of spectacular saves.

Things look like a mess and have since the Columbus game, three in a row...

Not all is doom and gloom, but my patience isn't limitless, either. I'm not ready to pull the chute yet, but at the midway point of the season, if things are not considerably advanced, then I'll be joining giambac's chorus.

Beach_Red
04-14-2009, 07:40 PM
How about the Chicago Fire???

How about Seattle so far??

How about Columbus competing in their first year??

Yes, there have been a bunch of expansion teams that have started strong (though you know it's silly to include Chicago in the second year of the league's existence - you might as well mention whoever won it the year the league started) but most often those early successes fade fast. Usually expansion teams that are successful fast have traded draft picks for veterans and when those veterans go they have no emerging core of players.

More often expansion teams that start slowly and develop their own draft picks turn into the better teams in the long run.

It may be a little different in MLS as teams aren't built through the draft - although that does seem to be the way of the future here.

T_Mizz
04-14-2009, 07:40 PM
How about the Chicago Fire???

How about Seattle so far??

How about Columbus competing in their first year??
Columbus??? really??? they were an original team meaning every team was an expansion team.
And Chicago came in after two seasons that really shouldn't count either.
Perhaps Seattle will proove to be the exception but again they have only played 4 games FFS

TFCREDNWHITE
04-14-2009, 07:54 PM
Columbus??? really??? they were an original team meaning every team was an expansion team.
And Chicago came in after two seasons that really shouldn't count either.
Perhaps Seattle will proove to be the exception but again they have only played 4 games FFS

Well u never seemed to answer the question about how the TFC academy went out and tied Tigres and beat AC Milan when they had NO business posting any of those results...

My point is that the senior squad has been giving ample time to foster a winning mentality and winning ability...It hasn't been 4 games it has been 4 games and 2 YEARS!....

TFC USA
04-14-2009, 07:57 PM
This has the potential to be a closed thread.

ginkster88
04-14-2009, 07:59 PM
^ That was obvious from the first post :).

TFCREDNWHITE
04-14-2009, 08:01 PM
Sorry Oblio2, It was such a great post it needed to be put here...

Originally Posted by Oblio2 http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/redbar/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=470904#post470904)
It's not the Coach. I dont think we can get a better Coach right now.
Who will do a better job?
I will say, they the level of players in the league and level of players we have at TFC is a fucking joke.
If you think this league is on par with the Coca Cola-You are having a giggle. You cannot lure quality players to the MLS because it's a shit league, with a bullshit salary cap that handicaps this league over others. Players ONLY come here when they have no other decent options, because why would you limit your payroll.
Result: Shit players, unproven players and has-been are here. There are some exceptions on TFC. Robbo, DeRo and maybe one or two others but for the most part, this is a third rate league with 4th rate players giving you a shit product. How firing Carver changes that, I dont know

TFCREDNWHITE
04-14-2009, 08:04 PM
This has the potential to be a closed thread.

Why!? Just because you can come up with a we're going to win the MLS Cup thread, people can come up with another perspective based on the shit play we have been witness too! ........Or do you wear "red tinted contact lenses" all day every day???

Beach_Red
04-14-2009, 08:09 PM
Sorry Oblio2, It was such a great post it needed to be put here...

Originally Posted by Oblio2 http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/redbar/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?p=470904#post470904)

I will say, they the level of players in the league and level of players we have at TFC is a fucking joke.

Result: Shit players, unproven players and has-been are here. There are some exceptions on TFC. Robbo, DeRo and maybe one or two others but for the most part, this is a third rate league with 4th rate players giving you a shit product. How firing Carver changes that, I dont know

Okay, given that the level of players in the league is "a fucking joke," (another way to say that might be that the players are what you get when you can only spend two million bucks on the entire roster) the question is, are the players on TFC that much worse than on all the other teams? Are they really that much worse than the players on Dallas? Are the players on TFC really that much worse than all the teams that have better records so far? Are they that much worse than all the teams that made the playoffs last year?

Or are they just not playing that well?

TFC USA
04-14-2009, 08:10 PM
Why!? Just because you can come up with a we're going to win the MLS Cup thread, people can come up with another perspective based on the shit play we have been witness too! ........Or do you wear "red tinted contact lenses" all day every day???

Glad to know you didn't even take the time to find out what I wrote about this team recently (and the CBC :p).

Comments like those are just egging on a closure of this thread. It's like me hopping on the Calgary C-Train towards disaster.

TFCREDNWHITE
04-14-2009, 08:12 PM
Glad to know you didn't even take the time to find out what I wrote about this team recently (and the CBC :p).

Comments like those are just egging on a closure of this thread. It's like me hopping on the Calgary C-Train towards disaster.

Well, don't just sit there....enlighten us!

TFCREDNWHITE
04-14-2009, 08:16 PM
I don't want to be like this kid crying all the time because my team is losing or not making the playoffs!

http://www.bevosports.com/images/sooner-sobbing-large.jpg

Beach_Red
04-14-2009, 08:18 PM
I don't want to be like this kid crying all the time because my team is losing or not making the playoffs!



So what do you think should be done?

TFCREDNWHITE
04-14-2009, 08:22 PM
So what do you think should be done?

Make a special room at BMO Field(see picture below), where every player who contributed to the WIN gets to go have a little personal time...I think that should get their JUICES flowing!! and it should instill some a winning mentality!!



http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_gwwG51THsT0/SSJp5r790AI/AAAAAAAAA6M/ZIUyRYeCiHo/s400/lingerie_bowl7.jpg

MUFC_Niagara
04-14-2009, 08:23 PM
because after every loss this section is a big bitchfest. Oh wait, thats why this board sucks during the season.

J .
04-14-2009, 08:32 PM
Zzzz Zzzzz zzzzzz

Rocco
04-14-2009, 08:38 PM
^^^^ that picture is HOT.

Anyway, to address some of the issues that have been brought up, I think the most important one for any team is chemistry. With all the international duties last year, it was very hard to have anything going. I suspect this year is not going to be as bad as most of the world cup qualifying games are pretty much coming to an end. I'm going to have revisit some of the other points AFTER the first 10 games of the season. It's just a bit too early to judge a team.

Championship teams don't have to come out strong from the get go. As a matter of fact, a team is only better through perseverance and attitude. I have no doubt in my mind that every player on the team has the right attitude. I would be disapointed if I saw a player slacking off. I thought for the home openner, lotta players slacked off. I was very disapointed. Last game, the whole team slacked off the last 15 minutes. Again, very disapointing. Having said that, you gotta keep the faith that even though it has been a rocky start, Carver and the team are able to bounce back and show us what they're really made out of. I expect that out of any team I play for, I expect the same from any team I support.

Rocco
04-14-2009, 08:43 PM
So what if the first 4 games are indicative of whats to come????

well so far we have 1 win 1 loss and 2 ties

that means that by that stat, at the end of the season we will have

8 wins 7 losses 15 ties which is 39 points which means NO PLAYOFFS!


Numerical Analysis 101: you can't extrapulate based on only 4 data points. That's just horrible prediction!! The more data points you have, the more accurate results you get! now if we played all 30 games, we can have a very good understanding if we either made the playofs or not :p

Four 4 Two
04-14-2009, 08:49 PM
unless other teams in our devision have only played 28 or 29 games and the points totals are really really close!!! :)

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-14-2009, 08:57 PM
Look i love this team just like the next guy! I love this team so much that it hurts me! seriously it causes me anxiety and physical pain!! I'm sorry for venting but it needs to be done...


First off i'd like to say i love DeRo! I think he is a Champion and a great player...

Secondly,

FUCK THIS TEAM!! I'm so sick of inconsistancy!!! I'm so sick of the same old shit over and over and over again!!

OUR BACKLINE IS CRAP!!! PERIOD. ABSOLUTE CRAP! and with NO reinforcements its gonna be the same old story again this year! Harmse is shit, Velez is no better really, Serioux needs a Strong CB partner!

OUR MIDS CAN'T SEEM TO WORK together if their life depended on it, ricketts sucks, cronin is NOT the answer, Guevara is sometimes in the game and sometimes out to lunch, Robbo can't do it on his own!

OUR STRIKERS CAN'T PULL THEIR SHIT TOGETHER! ZERO GOALS!! ZERO!!! WTF!?

NO DP!! NO DP!? WTF? People say why?? I SAY WHY NOT!! I want to challenge for the cup! doesn't everyone want to be a Champion like DeRo!!??

signed with passion and pain.....:(:(:(:(:(:(

The back line is crap? i see you left Brennans name out so i will had him to the list..hes absolute shite and has to move on or get his game together.
midfield..Cronin will be great with more experience, Ricketts and Guevara
need players to get them the ball...the strikers...Barrett, DeRo need to start producing or its the bench for both. A DP is not going to 100%
guarentee a improved club..we could get worse so why add one?
We are 4 games into a 30 game schedule...lets give the team a chance to improve....Toronto can deal with 42 years of losing hockey, so it can give TFC a bit more time to grow.

Walnut
04-14-2009, 09:35 PM
Having a manager with a 30% win rate is a big part of the problem. His team selection and substitutions are awful -- as witnessed on Saturday. I will perhaps never understand why he brought on Dichio instead of Vitti, and will most likely never understand why he didn't start Vitti.

Mo was an awful manager, and Carver is equally awful.

Things will not get better, unless the the manager starts selecting a team that - at least on paper - looks like it can win (but do not hold our breath...)

Dicho is a spent force, Barrett doesn't have game, Ibbey isn't good enough, and Vitti is benched.

UltraSuperMegaMo
04-14-2009, 09:44 PM
I’m starting to lose faith in Carver and Mo. All this talk about needing another CB is a little miss guided when we don’t appear to have a forward who can score.
We need a power forward type - like Dichio with a fresh battery.

H Bomb
04-14-2009, 09:47 PM
.Barrett, DeRo need to start producing or its the bench for both.


:rofl::rofl: :lol::smilielol5::smilielol5::smilielol5::fluffy:

ExiledRed
04-14-2009, 09:56 PM
Dicho is a spent force, Barrett doesn't have game, Ibbey isn't good enough, and Vitti is benched.

I'm going to take issue with this every time I see it.

When Dichio actually looks like a spent force and is visibly not getting it done, then you might have some basis to make this statement. Dichio is fine, and when he does come on the team rallies and plays better. He's the most intelligent player on the pitch, and if Carver actually starts him, I think he'll prove my point for me. While Carver refuses to start him, what you say, and what I say is mere conjecture.

Walnut
04-14-2009, 09:58 PM
I’m starting to lose faith in Carver and Mo. All this talk about needing another CB is a little miss guided when we don’t appear to have a forward who can score.
We need a power forward type - like Dichio with a fresh battery.

I couldn't agree more.

We need to score more goals, plain and simple. John Carver should be asking himself 'where are our goals going to be coming from...?' -- But I doubt he is.

H Bomb
04-14-2009, 09:59 PM
I'm dumbfounded by this place sometimes

Walnut
04-14-2009, 10:03 PM
I'm going to take issue with this every time I see it.

When Dichio actually looks like a spent force and is visibly not getting it done, then you might have some basis to make this statement. Dichio is fine, and when he does come on the team rallies and plays better. He's the most intelligent player on the pitch, and if Carver actually starts him, I think he'll prove my point for me. While Carver refuses to start him, what you say, and what I say is mere conjecture.

I am going to respectfully disagree with you here. When Dichio is playing he is static, has no pace, and when he receive the ball his back in invariable towards the goal and he either passes back or to the side -- allowing the defense time to get organized. The other side effect of having Dichio playing, is the team regression to the long-ball, to take advantage of Dichio's height -- which ALWAYS fails and plays into the hands of the opposition.

tfctillidie
04-14-2009, 10:30 PM
Who Are Ya!!!

jloome
04-14-2009, 10:33 PM
I am going to respectfully disagree with you here. When Dichio is playing he is static, has no pace, and when he receive the ball his back in invariable towards the goal and he either passes back or to the side -- allowing the defense time to get organized.

Heheh, that's funny. Dude, that's how a target forward is supposed to play, with this back to goal, dishing the ball to each side or to person right behind him. His job is to hold the ball up until the offensive area is full of support. He played like that when he was 23, and he wasn't out of gas then, either.

Rhapido
04-14-2009, 10:37 PM
On the other hand, I come on here and vent and complain about the team, nothing wrong with that. I am much more of a supporter then alot of people in this city. Also, people who don't complain on these boards or choose to be positive all the time are supporters the same way I am.

I have to commend you for admitting this. Too often on this board, those that choose to look at the glass half-empty tend to look down with such disdain at those half-full types.

And speaking of glasses...:drinking:

Jeffro
04-14-2009, 10:39 PM
Very constructive thread

Rhapido
04-14-2009, 10:41 PM
I am going to respectfully disagree with you here. When Dichio is playing he is static, has no pace, and when he receive the ball his back in invariable towards the goal and he either passes back or to the side -- allowing the defense time to get organized.

Can someone send me that pic of the face-in-palm religious statute? I will then edit this post immediately!

T_Mizz
04-14-2009, 11:15 PM
http://i269.photobucket.com/albums/jj51/crys77/polar-bear-face-palm_thumbnail1.jpg
That what you're looking for?

Oldtimer
04-15-2009, 07:58 AM
We're 3 points out of first place in the East, why the panic?

DC supporters don't panic, and their team has a slow start every year, and still usually challenges.

Oldtimer
04-15-2009, 08:03 AM
I'm going to post part of Bill Lankhof's Sun article, because it is so relevent:


One game into their Major League Soccer season, after a road win, the cock-eyed optimists had Toronto FC ticketed as the best thing to happen to soccer since the invention of short pants.
Two home games later and the hand-wringing pessimists see so many things wrong, the Reds might as well have Maple Leafs' logos tattoed on their backsides.
The reality is somewhere in between. This team is neither as good as some people hoped, or so bad it couldn't beat an 0-3 team on its home ground while giving up the tying goal with three minutes to play. One game does not a season make -- or break.
True, the team that is supposed to end the playoff drought of Toronto's pro teams is looking a lot like the south end of a northbound mule lately. Many of the familiar horrors that afflicted this team in its sophomore season have been revisited.
TFC surrendered a league-worst 13 goals in the last 15 minutes of games last season. On five occasions TFC conceded a goal in the final 10 minutes, and this year's club has not shown the grit necessary to defend those late leads with any more confidence then it did last season.
Toronto's offence? Lets just say John Cleese with a banana has had a better chance of launching a succesful attack.
All this has naturally put the bloggers and impassioned TFC followers into a dither. Fire the coach! Fire the GM! "Get rid of Barrett," suggests one. Move De Rosario up ... back ... anywhere but where coach John Carver is playing him. Hire a coach "from Brazil" suggests another -- as if Juan Valdez grows them on his coffee plantation on demand.
Silly talk, all of it.


http://www.torontosun.com/sports/columnists/bill_lankhof/2009/04/15/9115301-sun.html

RedsYNWA
04-15-2009, 08:18 AM
Last year first 10 games of the season we were 5 wins 3 losses and 2 ties
First 4 this season 1 win 1 loss 2 ties
Can we go 4-2 in our next 6 games to match the first 1/3 of the schedule?
we have 2 away @ DC and Dallas and 4 home KC, Chi, Col, and Chivas.
It's simple, if we don't we are not as good as we were last year. Is it the players, perhaps, or more likely people will realize Carver has very limited tactical ability as a manager

Walnut
04-15-2009, 08:33 AM
Heheh, that's funny. Dude, that's how a target forward is supposed to play, with this back to goal, dishing the ball to each side or to person right behind him. His job is to hold the ball up until the offensive area is full of support. He played like that when he was 23, and he wasn't out of gas then, either.

I guess that explains why TFC has been so successful, and won so many games. I do not know what I was thinking -- perhaps what the team needs is more aged players with no pace. Pure genius...

Our win % this year is 25% -- and our all time win % is 24.5%.

You sound like a guy who designed a ship that is sinking, talking about how good the engineering is.

Limani_Ole
04-15-2009, 09:03 AM
We need a DP striker.. always did.. always will..

When will TFC management reward its world class fans with a world class striker? are they ever willing to run in the red for some success on the field? or are they just testing the patience of their fans like they do with their other organizations.. open the wallet only when they have too?

Jack
04-15-2009, 09:21 AM
We need a DP striker.. always did.. always will..

When will TFC management reward its world class fans with a world class striker? are they ever willing to run in the red for some success on the field? or are they just testing the patience of their fans like they do with their other organizations.. open the wallet only when they have too?
I agree with this.

Drop in a DP striker in place of Barrett and things look much better.

No way he misses those sitters.

We still need to shore up the backline. At least I see something is being done about it (trialists etc.) but it needs to happen sooner rather than later.

Pachuco
04-15-2009, 09:33 AM
Yeah I'm at the point that I believe we need a DP striker or defender if not only for the reason that MLSE needs to show some reward to the fans. They need to show that they are willing to put their money where their mouth is. They can vote, they can talk, but until they sign a DP I'm not going to believe their willing to spend the money. Either that, or Mo really has no idea how to find talent. And so, MLSE again is to blame for letting him dance around this for too long now.

I don't want to risk the dynamics of the team, but we have really expensive guys either not producing or sitting on the bench that can easily be replaced with a DP striker half way through the season. Let me put it into perspective for you, half way through, you can replace Ricketts, Vitti or Barrett with a DP and you'd be sitting the same as far as cap goes. You an replace Guevara and Dero as well, but I wouldn't touch them :). Oh, and you could probably take Velez and Sutton's salary and replace them with a DP half way through and you'd be spending close to the same as far as cap is concerned.

TFCREDNWHITE
04-15-2009, 09:36 AM
Maybe it'll be Michael Owen....

Rocco
04-15-2009, 09:37 AM
We need a DP striker.. always did.. always will..

When will TFC management reward its world class fans with a world class striker? are they ever willing to run in the red for some success on the field? or are they just testing the patience of their fans like they do with their other organizations.. open the wallet only when they have too?


I think you hit the nail on the head. My patience is wearing thin as well. I don't think however that it's something they can do with money. I think the availability of DP class athletes are not available (ie. not free). They're all signed up to bigger, more popular clubs that have more fans and more cash. Given the quality of the league, it discourages world class players to play. Only the ones that can no longer compete in the world class level due to age or injury will find their way here.

JonO
04-15-2009, 09:40 AM
Oh, and you could probably take Velez and Sutton's salary and replace them with a DP half way through and you'd be spending close to the same as far as cap is concerned.
Could you really, though? I'm not sure how much of Velez or Sutton's salary would still count. That is can you really count half a DP salary to the cap because you are midway through the season but remove a full salary from the cap at the same time? (Not trying to be facetious, I really don't know)

Bloor West FC
04-15-2009, 09:43 AM
Why do we suck? Am I in the starting line up LOL. We have one loss in four games. Go back and watch the leafs they suck. Did we suck in KC? no and guess what we still have the same team.

Relax sit by the lake enjoy a puff or two of your favorite smoke. Its BBQ, Footy and Beach season. Oh and remember its a new season be positive!!!! Were bloody 4 games in with 5 points!!

JonO
04-15-2009, 09:43 AM
It's simple, if we don't we are not as good as we were last year.
For real? You can't pick an isolated stretch and compare it to last year to determine if we're as good as last year. The only thing you can say is that last year we got off to a better start..

The only way we will know we are better than last year is where we sit at the end of the season...

trane
04-15-2009, 09:58 AM
I guess that explains why TFC has been so successful, and won so many games. I do not know what I was thinking -- perhaps what the team needs is more aged players with no pace. Pure genius...

Our win % this year is 25% -- and our all time win % is 24.5%.

You sound like a guy who designed a ship that is sinking, talking about how good the engineering is.


Acctually with Dichio playing, we have a better record that with Dichio not playing, he is clearly not the problem. Yes, a DP striker would be an upgrade, but Dichio as a player is the reason we are shite, quite the opposite. As Jlomme, says you are blaming a target man for playing, like a target man, that is like bitching about at CB for not leading the team in scoring. Why does he sit behind all the other players, why does he not come forward and play ahead of the team. Because he is a CB.

There is one thing that MLS has is pace, and yet the general level of play is mediocare at best, I am being generous. Donavan has pace but has never been able to stay in Europe. Pace is good, but it is not the end all of what makes a football player.

Super
04-15-2009, 10:00 AM
We need one thing: a striker who can score goals.

Goals will give our entire team a lift and build confidence. Imagine being a defender on a team where the strikers do not score goals? That's a lot of pressure - especially when the average team in this league will let in a goal or two each game. The only way we can win games at this rate is to have clean sheets - so we can have the odd 1-0 win. Other than that it'll be a whole bunch of 0-0 draws.

Hopefully our current strikers will up their game soon enough and the anxiety about the lack of goals can end. We did two seasons of that already!

trane
04-15-2009, 10:00 AM
For real? You can't pick an isolated stretch and compare it to last year to determine if we're as good as last year. The only thing you can say is that last year we got off to a better start..

The only way we will know we are better than last year is where we sit at the end of the season...

It may be too early now, but we do not have to waite untill the end of the season to figure out if we are improving. For example if we do not win another game until 15 more in, statistcaly it will be fairly clear that we will not improve on last season.

JonO
04-15-2009, 10:04 AM
And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a bus. If if if is all I hear. Let's see what actually happens on the pitch! I doubt anyone can argue that on paper this team is significantly better than last year. And although the team has had two bad games in a row, I'm not willing to assume the worst yet. Doesn't do me any good, even if I did.

TFCREDNWHITE
04-15-2009, 10:08 AM
And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a bus. If if if is all I hear. Let's see what actually happens on the pitch! I doubt anyone can argue that on paper this team is significantly better than last year. And although the team has had two bad games in a row, I'm not willing to assume the worst yet. Doesn't do me any good, even if I did.


I would say 3 bad games in a row...we had no business getting a point in Columbus....that was luck.

JonO
04-15-2009, 10:10 AM
I would say 3 bad games in a row...we had no business getting a point in Columbus....that was luck.
Yeah - but missing two of our top players at the same time... I'm willing to call columbus a wash.

trane
04-15-2009, 10:21 AM
And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a bus. If if if is all I hear. Let's see what actually happens on the pitch! I doubt anyone can argue that on paper this team is significantly better than last year. And although the team has had two bad games in a row, I'm not willing to assume the worst yet. Doesn't do me any good, even if I did.


They have had one OK game, followed by three sub-par games. Yes they are better on paper, but they have not shown that much on the pitch.

My point has always been, that they need to show us soon, and that we should not waite until the end of season to call for change if they do not show us something better.

Boris
04-15-2009, 10:23 AM
lets talk numbers
after 4 games we have:
1 win
1 loss
2 ties
with 5 points

last year
2 wins
2 losses
for 6 points...


overall if we go game for game we are NOT doing better than last year and to me thats a dissapointment

nimamalek
04-15-2009, 10:29 AM
its funny how everyone complains about our defense, but if you look at the stats defense hasnt been our problem for the past 3 years, we were ninth in the league in defense last year, our offense was the issue. First 2 years, our team was winning with Dichio in the line-up, once he was injured we started losing. If we can find a striker who can score then we'll make the playoffs.

Boris
04-15-2009, 10:31 AM
its funny how everyone complains about our defense, but if you look at the stats defense hasnt been our problem for the past 3 years, we were ninth in the league in defense last year, our offense was the issue. First 2 years, our team was winning with Dichio in the line-up, once he was injured we started losing. If we can find a striker who can score then we'll make the playoffs.


bingo
look at KC..we were scoring and we got the win even though we conceded 2 goals....

Walnut
04-15-2009, 10:58 AM
As Jlomme, says you are blaming a target man for playing, like a target man

Dichio does not play like a target man. A target man would receive the ball, hold it, and then thread it through for an attack on goal. Dichio does not do this -- if / when he wins a ball, he reflex passes / heads the ball away from the goal -- this is mostly caused by his lack of pace and static playing style, which causes him to be a very predictable player to defend against. He does not hold the ball, allowing for others to move forward into an attacking position and then move the ball towards them.

As I mentioned before, and this is not ground breaking news, when Dichio is on the pitch the team begins to rely on the long-ball -- which when combined with our 'target man' playing the ball away from the goal, allows the opposition too much time to get prepared.

trane
04-15-2009, 11:03 AM
^ You must have been watching a different Danny Dichio, because the one I have seen does hold the ball, disripute the ball to other attackes, creates space and scores, and make the team better when he is on the pitch. Give him a little opening and he puts the ball on target.

nimamalek
04-15-2009, 11:06 AM
^^ whatever dichio does he wins us games, take a look at the stats for games he's started and our winning percentage versus games that he's not in the line-up. I remember figuring this out last year and the stats were pretty incredible

Walnut
04-15-2009, 11:30 AM
^^ whatever dichio does he wins us games, take a look at the stats for games he's started and our winning percentage versus games that he's not in the line-up. I remember figuring this out last year and the stats were pretty incredible


Danny has played 44 games for TFC, scored 11 goals, and scored 1 match winner.

TFC's win % is 30%, Danny scores in 25% of his games played, and has won the game for us about 2.5% of the time (once).

It is not my intention to be rude, but Dichio is not what can be considered a quality striker. He is a mediocre striker playing for a losing side at the very end of his career -- and this is some of the best form he has seen statistically.

TFCREDNWHITE
04-15-2009, 11:32 AM
lets talk numbers
after 4 games we have:
1 win
1 loss
2 ties
with 5 points

last year
2 wins
2 losses
for 6 points...


overall if we go game for game we are NOT doing better than last year and to me thats a dissapointment

Thats the point i was trying to make...and one of the ties should of been a loss! which puts us at 4pts! :eek:

trane
04-15-2009, 11:38 AM
Danny has played 44 games for TFC, scored 11 goals, and scored 1 match winner.

TFC's win % is 30%, Danny scores in 25% of his games played, and has won the game for us about 2.5% of the time (once).

It is not my intention to be rude, but Dichio is not what can be considered a quality striker. He is a mediocre striker playing for a losing side at the very end of his career -- and this is some of the best form he has seen statistically.


Danny has not played in 44 full games for us. His strike rate if you consider 90 minutes played as a full game is over 30% which makes him a good stiker in this league.

He is the best striker we have.

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-15-2009, 11:48 AM
Danny has not played in 44 full games for us. His strike rate if you consider 90 minutes played as a full game is over 30% which makes him a good stiker in this league.

He is the best striker we have.


:(...no really...DeRo and Barrett are better when in form..Dichio is on his
retirement tour 10 mins hers 20 mins there...maybe it would have been better if he had retired at the end of last season, it would have freed
up a playing spot and salary

LucaGol
04-15-2009, 11:51 AM
Yeah - but missing two of our top players at the same time... I'm willing to call columbus a wash.

I guess the key figures in Columbus winning their first MLS title last year Robbie Rogers, Frankie Hejduk and Alejandro Moreno being absent didn't affect the Crew at all.

.... right ... and they still put the screws to us. If not for hitting the woodwork and Stefan Frei heroics (get used to hearing that if we have any shot at the post-season) ... we would have been buried in the first half with no miracle goal to save us.

Walnut
04-15-2009, 11:54 AM
He is the best striker we have.

And that is the problem. Unfortunately, there is no relegation in North American leagues, as this would force MLSE to commit to building a winning team, as opposed to a system that rewards the loser with the best new players.

jloome
04-15-2009, 11:54 AM
Danny has not played in 44 full games for us. His strike rate if you consider 90 minutes played as a full game is over 30% which makes him a good stiker in this league.

He is the best striker we have.

And, I don't mean to be rude, but Andy fucking Cole didn't have a one-in-three strike rate. One-in-three or better is considered the standard for top strikers. If he has 1-in-3 for us with the limited time he's played, at his age, as a target forward, we're getting an abundance of overproduction. One in three means a 13 goal season in the premiership. If he were playing full time, 30% would be a 10 goal season for us, putting him likely in the league's top 10.

Maybe this is a definition of terms debate... what exactly are you looking for? Montero or Angel quality? Guys that good are a rare commodity in this league, which is big on physical attributes but small on individual technique.

I don't think one of those guys is out of the question, but it might be the way Mo's building this thing, which seems very much geared to beyond five years, when all the kids are older. The gambians, ibbee, OB White, Cronin will all have (if we can keep them) played together for years by then.

But there have been lots of free agent forwards available that would decimate MLS, if people will shell out the money.

trane
04-15-2009, 11:55 AM
:(...no really...DeRo and Barrett are better when in form..Dichio is on his
retirement tour 10 mins hers 20 mins there...maybe it would have been better if he had retired at the end of last season, it would have freed
up a playing spot and salary

De Ro is not a striker, and Barrett may be better one day, but is not better right now. You can wish for him to be better , but he has to prove it. I hope he does, but so far he has not shown much positive.

Perhaps if we let Dichio play more the 10 to 20 minutes at a time, we would be better off.

trane
04-15-2009, 12:03 PM
And, I don't mean to be rude, but Andy fucking Cole didn't have a one-in-three strike rate. One-in-three or better is considered the standard for top strikers. If he has 1-in-3 for us with the limited time he's played, at his age, as a target forward, we're getting an abundance of overproduction. One in three means a 13 goal season in the premiership. If he were playing full time, 30% would be a 10 goal season for us, putting him likely in the league's top 10.

Maybe this is a definition of terms debate... what exactly are you looking for? Montero or Angel quality? Guys that good are a rare commodity in this league, which is big on physical attributes but small on individual technique.

I don't think one of those guys is out of the question, but it might be the way Mo's building this thing, which seems very much geared to beyond five years, when all the kids are older. The gambians, ibbee, OB White, Cronin will all have (if we can keep them) played together for years by then.

But there have been lots of free agent forwards available that would decimate MLS, if people will shell out the money.

I am not sure how we disagree? Maybe you can explain.

Walnut
04-15-2009, 12:04 PM
Mo's building this thing, which seems very much geared to beyond five years.

The Mo Johnson great 'five year plan' -- god help us!

Kevvv
04-15-2009, 12:09 PM
Thats the point i was trying to make...and one of the ties should of been a loss! which puts us at 4pts!

And one could argue that one of our draws should have been a win, which puts it up to 6 pts.

Yohan
04-15-2009, 12:13 PM
cant wait to see what sort of shitstorm will get brewed up if TFC draws or loses this Sat

trane
04-15-2009, 12:15 PM
^ But if they has score another goal in KC, that would make that a draw, and then we would have 3 points, for three draws. AHAH what do you say to that.

Steve
04-15-2009, 12:15 PM
De Ro is not a striker, and Barrett may be better one day, but is not better right now. You can wish for him to be better , but he has to prove it. I hope he does, but so far he has not shown much positive.

Perhaps if we let Dichio play more the 10 to 20 minutes at a time, we would be better off.

As far as strike rate, how can you say Dichio is better than Barrett? Last year, for TFC, barrett played 998 and got 4 goals, 3 assists. Dichio played for 1445 minutes, got 5 goals, 3 assists. So Barrett scored a goal every 249 minutes, Dichio every 289. Sorry, Barrett's stats seem to be better. Assists? Barrett every 332 minutes Dichio every 481. Again, advantage Barrett.

Sorry, were you talking about this season? Great, let's compare those stats shall we: Ok, so... carry the one... that's right, both of them have a goal every infinite minutes (same for assists). Seems even to me. You can't extrapolate 0 goals in fewer minutes to mean more goals in more minutes. It doesn't work that way, or Andrea Lombardo would be a better striker than either of them (having played 0 minutes this year).

Using historical stats, I would say the advantage lies with Barrett. That, combined with his young age (we would like to keep him for a while, and he's been getting better every year) gives a pretty strong case for Carver sticking with Barrett through this slump. Let's say Carver benches Barrett this year, goes with Dichio, who leads us to a 7th place finish. We make the playoffs, and everyone is happy. Then we get knocked out of the first round. Oh well, what can you do, right? The problem is, next year, we don't have a young improving striker in Barrett since being benched has effectively castrated him. Dichio retires, and we're left in a worse position than ever. Give Barrett some more time, he's young, and still on an upward swing. If he can't come out of his funk by june, we might have to consider something more drastic, but until then, keep the faith.

trane
04-15-2009, 12:18 PM
^ Barret strike rate is similar to Dichio's, from the stats that I have seen. However, Barret right now, seems to be killing our offensive flow. It is not the strike rate that I am concenred with. Whehter Barret is getting better, without any goals to back it up, is a matter of opinion.


Dichio has been better this year becasue the team has played better, created more chances with him on the pitch, in fewere minutes.

Tezza
04-15-2009, 12:26 PM
De Ro is not a striker, and Barrett may be better one day, but is not better right now. You can wish for him to be better , but he has to prove it. I hope he does, but so far he has not shown much positive.

Perhaps if we let Dichio play more the 10 to 20 minutes at a time, we would be better off.


Is that right? We've scored 4 goals in 2 games when he plays as a striker and we had one goal (own goal strangely off of DeRo's boot) in 2 games when he was in the midfield.

DeRo has been used as a striker in the past and it's pretty obvious from the 4 league games this year that we have had more scoring chances with him playing up front.

IMO it's really about determining who should be playing up front with him. At this point...I'm not convinced it should be Barrett based on current form. I'm still at a loss explaining why Vitti isn't getting that chance.

Steve
04-15-2009, 12:43 PM
^ Barret strike rate is similar to Dichio's, from the stats that I have seen. However, Barret right now, seems to be killing our offensive flow. It is not the strike rate that I am concenred with. Whehter Barret is getting better, without any goals to back it up, is a matter of opinion.


Dichio has been better this year becasue the team has played better, created more chances with him on the pitch, in fewere minutes.

See, I don't even agree with that. I mean, sure, it's subjective, but I don't feel like we've been a more dangerous side with Dichio instead of Barrett. Most of the good chances we had I feel were when Barrett was on the pitch (though to be fair he did botch a good number of those). Luckily for us, Barrett has only ever been subbed off by Dichio, so it's easily to compare the team performance between them. For the record, Barrett has played 281 (or 78%) of the minutes, and Dichio has played 79 (or 22%) of the minutes.

So, let's look at shots, DD with 3 shots, 1 on goal, Barrett with 9 shots, 4 on goal. 3 times the shots, 4 times the shots on goal by Barrett, with 3.5 times the minutes. Seems about even to me there.

How about team play? Well, though I didn't get the shots/shots on goal of the team, we do know about the goals. Barrett has been on the pitch for 4 out of our 5 goals, or 80%. Seems about right doesn't it? Dichio was on for one (which was an own goal anyway) or 20%. What about goals against? Barrett was on for 5 (1 a penalty) or 83%, Dichio was on for 1, or 17%.

So, I know the statistical sample is still small, but looking at that I'm not seeing much difference at all, certainly not enough to proclaim Dichio far superior. Yes, I understand that doesn't take into account subjective analysis of the play, but since you think the team is playing better with Dichio, and I think it's playing better with Barrett, that's kind of a wash, isn't it?

I'm not saying that Barrett is the greatest player ever, just trying to prevent people from pilling on him like they seem to for our players who are struggling. Yes, he is in a rut, but it's not that bad.

Also for reference: Barrett traditionally has bagged a goal approximatly every 260 minutes (or slightly better than 1 every three games). Barrett has played 281 minutes so far this season. He's potentially not as far off his normal (and very respectable) figure as people seem to think.

TFCREDNWHITE
04-15-2009, 12:52 PM
And one could argue that one of our draws should have been a win, which puts it up to 6 pts.

No. You can't argue that. Why? because we are shit. And when you're shit you deserve to let a late goal screw you in the 87th min(**sigh**) Just like last year....:rolleyes:

nimamalek
04-15-2009, 12:53 PM
Danny has played 44 games for TFC, scored 11 goals, and scored 1 match winner.

TFC's win % is 30%, Danny scores in 25% of his games played, and has won the game for us about 2.5% of the time (once).

It is not my intention to be rude, but Dichio is not what can be considered a quality striker. He is a mediocre striker playing for a losing side at the very end of his career -- and this is some of the best form he has seen statistically.

you may not be rude but you are definitely illiterate. First, I said games he's STARTED, he's only started 31 games for TFC in the first 2 seasons with 11 goals. Second, I said nothing about scoring, I said winning percentage.

here is a break down
season 1:
TFC goes 6W 17L 7D
season 2:
TFC goes 9W 13L 8D
total
15W 30L 15D

with Dichio STARTING in the first 2 seasons (31 games)
TFC was
11W 9L 11D

so out of our 15 wins Dichio started 11 of them and out of our 15 draws Dichio started 11 of them, from our 30 losses Dichio started only 9. So say what you want, Dichio makes this team into a playoff contender. The numbers do not lie...

trane
04-15-2009, 01:02 PM
See, I don't even agree with that. I mean, sure, it's subjective, but I don't feel like we've been a more dangerous side with Dichio instead of Barrett. Most of the good chances we had I feel were when Barrett was on the pitch (though to be fair he did botch a good number of those). Luckily for us, Barrett has only ever been subbed off by Dichio, so it's easily to compare the team performance between them. For the record, Barrett has played 281 (or 78%) of the minutes, and Dichio has played 79 (or 22%) of the minutes.

So, let's look at shots, DD with 3 shots, 1 on goal, Barrett with 9 shots, 4 on goal. 3 times the shots, 4 times the shots on goal by Barrett, with 3.5 times the minutes. Seems about even to me there.

How about team play? Well, though I didn't get the shots/shots on goal of the team, we do know about the goals. Barrett has been on the pitch for 4 out of our 5 goals, or 80%. Seems about right doesn't it? Dichio was on for one (which was an own goal anyway) or 20%. What about goals against? Barrett was on for 5 (1 a penalty) or 83%, Dichio was on for 1, or 17%.

So, I know the statistical sample is still small, but looking at that I'm not seeing much difference at all, certainly not enough to proclaim Dichio far superior. Yes, I understand that doesn't take into account subjective analysis of the play, but since you think the team is playing better with Dichio, and I think it's playing better with Barrett, that's kind of a wash, isn't it?

I'm not saying that Barrett is the greatest player ever, just trying to prevent people from pilling on him like they seem to for our players who are struggling. Yes, he is in a rut, but it's not that bad.

Also for reference: Barrett traditionally has bagged a goal approximatly every 260 minutes (or slightly better than 1 every three games). Barrett has played 281 minutes so far this season. He's potentially not as far off his normal (and very respectable) figure as people seem to think.


Do you realy think this makes sense, Barrett is better then Dichio, because when Barrett has been on the pitch this season, we have scored more goals? So Harmse and Serioux are also better strikers becasue they have been on the pitch for more then Dichio has?

I have nothing against Barrett, I like Dichio, but if a better striker comes along, then we shoudl play him, however, I see what I see, on the pitch the movement, spacing and general level of play has been shite with Barret on the field.

De Ro is not a striker, he has played in that position, but he is an attacking midfielder. He can score more goal then Dichio from that position, but his chances of doing so would be increased with Dichio on the pithc in my opinion.

Steve
04-15-2009, 01:12 PM
Do you realy think this makes sense, Barrett is better then Dichio, because when Barrett has been on the pitch this season, we have scored more goals? So Harmse and Serioux are also better strikers becasue they have been on the pitch for more then Dichio has?

I have nothing against Barrett, I like Dichio, but if a better striker comes along, then we shoudl play him, however, I see what I see, on the pitch the movement, spacing and general level of play has been shite with Barret on the field.

De Ro is not a striker, he has played in that position, but he is an attacking midfielder. He can score more goal then Dichio from that position, but his chances of doing so would be increased with Dichio on the pithc in my opinion.

You said the team was more dangerous when Dichio was on the pitch. I defined dangerous as scoring goals (seeing as that's the point of soccer, and that's really the only way to objectively look at it).

To clarify, I didn't say he was better because he was on the pitch for more absolute goals than Dichio, I said that after you adjust for time played, they were about even. That doesn't seem to support the "the team is more dangerous with Dichio" assertion. Yes, I understand the sample size is small, but that's all we can go on right now, isn't it?

Again, personally I think the team's movement is better with Barrett than with Dichio, you think the opposite. That's fine, it's a mostly subjective assessment.

trane
04-15-2009, 01:20 PM
^ The only way to look at it objectively, is when Dichio does not play historicaly we are shite. We lose, and we lose alot, and we look like shite in doing it. Barrett has not helped. We looked confused and disorganized and we lose, alot. How can you deny that? Obejctively.

How does the team movement look better with Barrett on the pitch, running around does not make good movement, moving into good positiosn for good passes in good positiosn does. Barrett does not do that. He tries hard but more often then not he is a shit position.

Steve
04-15-2009, 01:28 PM
^ The only way to look at it objectively, is when Dichio does not play historicaly we are shite. We lose, and we lose alot, and we look like shite in doing it. Barrett has not helped. We looked confused and disorganized and we lose, alot. How can you deny that? Obejctively.

How does the team movement look better with Barrett on the pitch, running around does not make good movement, moving into good positiosn for good passes in good positiosn does. Barrett does not do that. He tries hard but more often then not he is a shit position.

So the only way to look at things objectively is the way you want to? Moreover, you're saying that Dichio (and only Dichio) must always play for TFC forever, or we will be "shite"? Ok then...

Walnut
04-15-2009, 01:34 PM
you may not be rude but you are definitely illiterate. First, I said games he's STARTED, he's only started 31 games for TFC in the first 2 seasons with 11 goals. Second, I said nothing about scoring, I said winning percentage.

here is a break down
season 1:
TFC goes 6W 17L 7D
season 2:
TFC goes 9W 13L 8D
total
15W 30L 15D

with Dichio STARTING in the first 2 seasons (31 games)
TFC was
11W 9L 11D

so out of our 15 wins Dichio started 11 of them and out of our 15 draws Dichio started 11 of them, from our 30 losses Dichio started only 9. So say what you want, Dichio makes this team into a playoff contender. The numbers do not lie...

So your argument that Dichio is not what I have described, is that in games Danny started we won 30% of the time................????

Sorry -- are you arguing for or against Dichio....????

Technorgasm
04-15-2009, 01:44 PM
Because drinks are WAAAAaaaay too expensive at shoeless joes?

$8 Guiness?
what, the , fuck, just , happened?

rocker
04-15-2009, 01:47 PM
So the only way to look at things objectively is the way you want to? Moreover, you're saying that Dichio (and only Dichio) must always play for TFC forever, or we will be "shite"? Ok then...

I'm with you Steve. I don't see a radical difference between team play with Dichio versus with Barrett (against Dallas, TFC played better in the first half than second, actually). I remember a lot of critics of Dichio's play on this very board -- people saying he was slow and we needed to get speedier (more "south american" style). Now the public opinion shifts and Dichio is the saviour?

Anyhow, this tendency to attribute wins solely to Dichio is false reasoning.
When Dichio got hurt in season 1, Ronnie O'Brien got hurt too. Both were out for significant periods. And Dichio was certainly better than just about any option we had in season 1, and parts of season 2. Naturally, if you lose your best option, that's gonna hurt. To say that a certain record with Dichio is solely the result of Dichio is faulty reasoning. There are, afterall, 10 others on the field with him in those games, and many others got hurt when he was out of the lineup.

My main argument is not that Dichio is better than Barrett or Barrett is better than Dichio. I do not argue that the team "looks better" with Dichio in the match. Actually, we looked better in game 1 against KC without Dichio than we've ever looked.

The fact is (and I've posted this elsewhere), Dichio and Barrett are strikingly similar in production per minute, with Dichio having a slight (1 or 2 goal) edge in goals, and Barrett having a slight edge in assists. Both players seem to hustle and try hard.

To me it's a tossup which one should start. And starting Dichio would not make a massive difference, as some people seem to be implying.

nimamalek
04-15-2009, 01:48 PM
So your argument that Dichio is not what I have described, is that in games Danny started we won 30% of the time................????

Sorry -- are you arguing for or against Dichio....????

I dont think anyone knows what you are saying. From your own posts its obvious Dichio is vital to our team. %30 winning percentage with him in the line-up for a team that has struggled as much as TFC is great. Take the 31 games he's played for us and drop either a win or a draw. you still have 40+ points over 30 games, which would have put us in the playoffs both years. And I think you are missing the point from my first post, DEFENSE has never been our problem, a striker that can help us win has been our issue from the beginning. What we need is another big target man like Dichio, we seem to play well with that sort of player.

Walnut
04-15-2009, 02:05 PM
%30 winning percentage with him in the line-up for a team that has struggled as much as TFC is great.

LOL -- You are right. When Danny in on the pitch TFC are just awful, when he is not there they a terrible. Does that make you feel better...?

giambac
04-15-2009, 02:13 PM
Look i love this team just like the next guy! I love this team so much that it hurts me! seriously it causes me anxiety and physical pain!! I'm sorry for venting but it needs to be done...


First off i'd like to say i love DeRo! I think he is a Champion and a great player...

Secondly,

FUCK THIS TEAM!! I'm so sick of inconsistancy!!! I'm so sick of the same old shit over and over and over again!!

OUR BACKLINE IS CRAP!!! PERIOD. ABSOLUTE CRAP! and with NO reinforcements its gonna be the same old story again this year! Harmse is shit, Velez is no better really, Serioux needs a Strong CB partner!

OUR MIDS CAN'T SEEM TO WORK together if their life depended on it, ricketts sucks, cronin is NOT the answer, Guevara is sometimes in the game and sometimes out to lunch, Robbo can't do it on his own!

OUR STRIKERS CAN'T PULL THEIR SHIT TOGETHER! ZERO GOALS!! ZERO!!! WTF!?

NO DP!! NO DP!? WTF? People say why?? I SAY WHY NOT!! I want to challenge for the cup! doesn't everyone want to be a Champion like DeRo!!??

signed with passion and pain.....:(:(:(:(:(:(

I feel your frustration and I agree this team lacks consistency, lacks direction and quite franky doesn't seem to have a defined style of play other than kick the ball upfield and hope for the best.

I think the frustration is growing amonsgt the tFC supporters.

WARNING TO MO AND CARVER AND THE HEAD BRASS AT MLSE

THE HONEYMOON IS OVER!

Roogsy
04-15-2009, 02:19 PM
Why are people e-screaming?

Jack
04-15-2009, 02:22 PM
LOL

We might have to limit the text size options around here :D

But I must say, our patience is not limitless. Promises were made. Time to deliver.

DRock
04-15-2009, 02:24 PM
LMAO, i've been reading this board and there's been some quite intelligent discussion about statisitics and so on, and then i came to the bottom and noticed that giambac posted after all that (and it wasn't related in the least) and I just couldn't help but chuckle to myself.

giambac
04-15-2009, 02:57 PM
LMAO, i've been reading this board and there's been some quite intelligent discussion about statisitics and so on, and then i came to the bottom and noticed that giambac posted after all that (and it wasn't related in the least) and I just couldn't help but chuckle to myself.


u chuckle to yourself often. Must be funny:drinking:

jloome
04-15-2009, 02:59 PM
I am not sure how we disagree? Maybe you can explain.

We don't , I hit quote off the wrong thread. I was agreeing with you.

Fort York Redcoat
04-15-2009, 03:05 PM
Haven't I seen this thread before? I 100% gaurantee there will be Chicken Little's to say we suck every year.

signed,

Full Time Kool-Aid Drinker

trane
04-15-2009, 03:09 PM
We don't , I hit quote off the wrong thread. I was agreeing with you.

I was confused for a second.

trane
04-15-2009, 03:18 PM
So the only way to look at things objectively is the way you want to? Moreover, you're saying that Dichio (and only Dichio) must always play for TFC forever, or we will be "shite"? Ok then...

Ah, no

How about, our best players at any given moment should play , Dichio is our best striker at the moment so he should play.


Barrett runs and works hard, he also has a good shot. Potentially he could be a good if not great striker in this this league. But he is not at this time.

Objectively ball movement and spacing has been shit while he is on the pitch, runnign may be excitgin, but Jo Smith runs alot, does that make him good?

Frank Costanza
04-15-2009, 03:26 PM
Look i love this team just like the next guy! I love this team so much that it hurts me! seriously it causes me anxiety and physical pain!! I'm sorry for venting but it needs to be done...


First off i'd like to say i love DeRo! I think he is a Champion and a great player...

Secondly,

FUCK THIS TEAM!! I'm so sick of inconsistancy!!! I'm so sick of the same old shit over and over and over again!!

OUR BACKLINE IS CRAP!!! PERIOD. ABSOLUTE CRAP! and with NO reinforcements its gonna be the same old story again this year! Harmse is shit, Velez is no better really, Serioux needs a Strong CB partner!

OUR MIDS CAN'T SEEM TO WORK together if their life depended on it, ricketts sucks, cronin is NOT the answer, Guevara is sometimes in the game and sometimes out to lunch, Robbo can't do it on his own!

OUR STRIKERS CAN'T PULL THEIR SHIT TOGETHER! ZERO GOALS!! ZERO!!! WTF!?

NO DP!! NO DP!? WTF? People say why?? I SAY WHY NOT!! I want to challenge for the cup! doesn't everyone want to be a Champion like DeRo!!??

signed with passion and pain.....:(:(:(:(:(:(
hey bumbafoo lets wait and see how week 5 goes b4 we throw the team under the bus

TFCREDNWHITE
04-15-2009, 03:58 PM
hey bumbafoo lets wait and see how week 5 goes b4 we throw the team under the bus

WoW you've only been around for 4 games!!?? SHit man, I've been around for 2 years + 4 games....

All i'm saying is that I want the team to turn it around fast. It would be in their best interest to do so.....:rolleyes:

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-15-2009, 04:25 PM
you may not be rude but you are definitely illiterate. First, I said games he's STARTED, he's only started 31 games for TFC in the first 2 seasons with 11 goals. Second, I said nothing about scoring, I said winning percentage.

here is a break down
season 1:
TFC goes 6W 17L 7D
season 2:
TFC goes 9W 13L 8D
total
15W 30L 15D

with Dichio STARTING in the first 2 seasons (31 games)
TFC was
11W 9L 11D

so out of our 15 wins Dichio started 11 of them and out of our 15 draws Dichio started 11 of them, from our 30 losses Dichio started only 9. So say what you want, Dichio makes this team into a playoff contender. The numbers do not lie...

Also the age numbers do not lie, hes past it playing wise,im sure hes still here so he can finish up his career in Toronto..Lets be fair if TFC released
him today..i would be willing to bet there would be NO clubs wanting to sign him. Doing the last 10-15 minutes of a match is what Dichio is going
to do all season..get used to it.

trane
04-15-2009, 04:27 PM
^ Then unless we get another striker [ or one steps righ up] we will be shite all season. I would say get used to it, but you allready are and apparenlty loving it.

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-15-2009, 04:32 PM
^ Then unless we get another striker [ or one steps righ up] we will be shite all season. I would say get used to it, but you allready are and apparenlty loving it.

and your expecting something else from a club in just its 3rd pro season?:noidea:

trane
04-15-2009, 04:39 PM
^ When will that line expire, in year 5 ?

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 04:56 PM
WoW you've only been around for 4 games!!?? SHit man, I've been around for 2 years + 4 games....

All i'm saying is that I want the team to turn it around fast. It would be in their best interest to do so.....:rolleyes:
That's kind of ridiculus you cannot possibly have had the expectation of winning in the first two seasons, I do believe that you are correct in thinking that this year playoffs need to be the goal with anything less being a massive failure, but in the first two years, to expect the team to make the playoffs was unrealistic and you know it (or you should know it if you don't)

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-15-2009, 04:58 PM
^ When will that line expire, in year 5 ?

YEP!!

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 05:01 PM
^ Then unless we get another striker [ or one steps righ up] we will be shite all season. I would say get used to it, but you allready are and apparenlty loving it.
That's kind of silly man, nobody "loves" sucking but we all have different levels of patience with this team. Apparently yours and some other people's is insanely low (first two years should not be seen as disappointments and 4 games into this season is too soon to be jumping ship) and that's ok it takes all kinds to make a supporters group. Some people's is too high but some people's is just right.:D

TFCREDNWHITE
04-15-2009, 05:05 PM
That's kind of ridiculus you cannot possibly have had the expectation of winning in the first two seasons, I do believe that you are correct in thinking that this year playoffs need to be the goal with anything less being a massive failure, but in the first two years, to expect the team to make the playoffs was unrealistic and you know it (or you should know it if you don't)

I bet you Seattle is gonna put that arguement to bed this year!

and no, i don't expect to hoist the trophy year over year, but i do expect to be a decent football club that always CHALLENGES for it!!

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 05:16 PM
Seattle looks poised to be the exception but again that is only 4 games into the season you really cannot read too far into it, especially because they lost to KC 1-0.
And in a league with such parity it is (and should be) perfectly acceptable to go through some growing pains, you can't always challenge for the Stanley Cup (unless you're the more recent Detroit), you can't always Challenge for the Super Bowl (unless you're the more recent New England), you can't always challenge for the NBA championship. Its just a fact of leagues with such parity. Especially in your first two years of existence.

giambac
04-15-2009, 06:40 PM
That's kind of ridiculus you cannot possibly have had the expectation of winning in the first two seasons, I do believe that you are correct in thinking that this year playoffs need to be the goal with anything less being a massive failure, but in the first two years, to expect the team to make the playoffs was unrealistic and you know it (or you should know it if you don't)

was it unrealistic to think we could have beating 2 USl teams and represnet Canada in the ConCacef?

Be honest- i do believe everyone expected us to win. We stunk th joint out. We couldn't deliver in the last deciding match on our home turf in front of diehard fans..........

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 07:57 PM
[/b]

was it unrealistic to think we could have beating 2 USl teams and represnet Canada in the ConCacef?

Be honest- i do believe everyone expected us to win. We stunk th joint out. We couldn't deliver in the last deciding match on our home turf in front of diehard fans..........
Oh I'm in no way defending that, I was there for those and they were absolutely inexcusable there is no reason that a "lower level" team should ever beat us, especially on our home turf.

TFCREDNWHITE
04-15-2009, 08:00 PM
And I blame it on the fact that we just can't seem to get our shit together...

Walnut
04-15-2009, 08:01 PM
That's kind of ridiculus you cannot possibly have had the expectation of winning in the first two seasons, I do believe that you are correct in thinking that this year playoffs need to be the goal with anything less being a massive failure, but in the first two years, to expect the team to make the playoffs was unrealistic and you know it (or you should know it if you don't)

The way the leaugue system here is set up, is there is no punishment for failure or being very bad. Infact, the worst team is rewarded by getting to select the best new players (?????)

With no threat of relegation, teams can go on forever being average or outright bad and without the fans punishing them -- just look at the Leafs.

It is my personal feeling, that unless things turn around soon the fans should take matters into their own hands, and punish the club in the same manner as the other fans have done in the past by going on strike. Show the club we are unhappy by turning off the support -- still showing up, but turning off the atmosphere.

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-15-2009, 08:08 PM
The way the leaugue system here is set up, is there is no punishment for failure or being very bad. Infact, the worst team is rewarded by getting to select the best new players (?????)

With no threat of relegation, teams can go on forever being average or outright bad and without the fans punishing them -- just look at the Leafs.

It is my personal feeling, that unless things turn around soon the fans should take matters into their own hands, and punish the club in the same manner as the other fans have done in the past by going on strike. Show the club we are unhappy by turning off the support -- still showing up, but turning off the atmosphere.


and thats going to improve the club how? lets give the team a proper
amount of time to build a contender...after 5 years if the product is the same...then complain....

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 08:10 PM
The way the leaugue system here is set up, is there is no punishment for failure or being very bad. Infact, the worst team is rewarded by getting to select the best new players (?????)

With no threat of relegation, teams can go on forever being average or outright bad and without the fans punishing them -- just look at the Leafs.

It is my personal feeling, that unless things turn around soon the fans should take matters into their own hands, and punish the club in the same manner as the other fans have done in the past by going on strike. Show the club we are unhappy by turning off the support -- still showing up, but turning off the atmosphere.
First off, the whole idea of the draft is not to reward the worst teams or punish the best teams, its purpose is to allow the worst teams to get good young players to build a future around.
Secondly, your idea makes no sense, sorry for the wording, turning off the support is useless, presuming your first premise of the management trying to exploit us with mediocrity proves true. The management in your case couldn't care less about our support, all they care about is the money of us showing up and watching on TV.
So if you're correct that the management are greedy bastards then the messege we need to send it that we support the team but not financially, ie empty stadiums.

Walnut
04-15-2009, 08:16 PM
and thats going to improve the club how? lets give the team a proper
amount of time to build a contender...after 5 years if the product is the same...then complain....

It would force the hand of the owners, to spend some cheddar on some quality players -- and a quality management team.

I do not understand this "give them time" mentality -- are we being given a break on the money we spend on them until they get good -- and if in another three years they still suck will we get a refund (LOL)?

So at the end of the year, if (when) we fail again, and then another year, and then another year -- then we can be upset enough to demand that they get good.

A bad team playing on fake grass, with terrible management -- but give them time.

Beach_Red
04-15-2009, 08:24 PM
The way the leaugue system here is set up, is there is no punishment for failure or being very bad. Infact, the worst team is rewarded by getting to select the best new players (?????)

With no threat of relegation, teams can go on forever being average or outright bad and without the fans punishing them -- just look at the Leafs.

It is my personal feeling, that unless things turn around soon the fans should take matters into their own hands, and punish the club in the same manner as the other fans have done in the past by going on strike. Show the club we are unhappy by turning off the support -- still showing up, but turning off the atmosphere.


Relegation is a non-starter in American sports so you might as well just forget it now.

The model for MLS if the NFL - teams built through the draft, no relegation, lots of teams make the playoffs, etc.. When the old AFL and NFL merged a lot of people said it wouldn't work and football would never be anywhere near as popular as baseball for many of those reasons.

Walnut
04-15-2009, 08:24 PM
First off, the whole idea of the draft is not to reward the worst teams or punish the best teams, its purpose is to allow the worst teams to get good young players to build a future around.
Secondly, your idea makes no sense, sorry for the wording, turning off the support is useless, presuming your first premise of the management trying to exploit us with mediocrity proves true. The management in your case couldn't care less about our support, all they care about is the money of us showing up and watching on TV.
So if you're correct that the management are greedy bastards then the messege we need to send it that we support the team but not financially, ie empty stadiums.

I think a strike would get some considerable press coverage -- considering the intense level of support that TFC enjoy, even when they play so bad so often. Please do not underestimate the power that we posses -- not just the supporters section, but the entire support for the team. MLSE are only getting away with this because we are letting them. As far as they are concerned, we will cheer and scream, and sing, and applaud, regardless of whether they win, lose, or draw.

When I first moved to Canada -- I was shocked by the apathy of the fans of the Leafs when the lock out was going on. There was no protest, outrage, or demands to get back to playing the game. Can you imagine the fans of Barcelona allowing the club to lock out the players, and cancel the entire football season...?

I think it is time for the tail to wag the dog.

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 08:31 PM
Relegation is a non-starter in American sports so you might as well just forget it now.

The model for MLS if the NFL - teams built through the draft, no relegation, lots of teams make the playoffs, etc.. When the old AFL and NFL merged a lot of people said it wouldn't work and football would never be anywhere near as popular as baseball for many of those reasons.
True and as far as I'm concerned that's the way it should be done, every business everywhere should be run like the NFL it is so powerful that the EPL wishes it could have that type of success

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 08:33 PM
I think a strike would get some considerable press coverage -- considering the intense level of support that TFC enjoy, even when they play so bad so often. Please do not underestimate the power that we posses -- not just the supporters section, but the entire support for the team. MLSE are only getting away with this because we are letting them. As far as they are concerned, we will cheer and scream, and sing, and applaud, regardless of whether they win, lose, or draw.

The only way the press would cover that is if it got violent then Cathal Kelly and those douchebags would have a field day, but I think that if a strike took place we'd need to hit the owners where it hurts: their wallets.

Beach_Red
04-15-2009, 08:42 PM
True and as far as I'm concerned that's the way it should be done, every business everywhere should be run like the NFL it is so powerful that the EPL wishes it could have that type of success


Is there a little symbol for sarcastic? It's okay, I get it anyway ;).

The future of the EPL is going to be interesting if the top few teams continue to rise so much further from the rest of the pack.

The NFL was set up with TV and revenue sharing in mind - that's why a team from a small town in Wisconsin can win the Super Bowl once in a while. Every team (except the Lions :)) has just as good a chance to win it all as any other.

As TV revenue looks like it will simply continue to grow - but not be shared evenly among European teams - the structure of the NFL is looking pretty good.

The biggest drawback for the NFL is the sport itself. I find it boring and no one outside of America is interested in it. But if that league structure gets applied to the world's most popular sport, the league that does that could someday be one of the world's best.

Walnut
04-15-2009, 08:45 PM
The only way the press would cover that is if it got violent then Cathal Kelly and those douchebags would have a field day, but I think that if a strike took place we'd need to hit the owners where it hurts: their wallets.

No $13 lagers????? My wallet would thank me for that ;)

I think that if things go badly at Dallas at the weekend, and at home against Columbus -- I think that action from us, the people who made TFC, will be certainly called for. I am not prepared to allow Mo a five year plan, when he was given 12 games at New York before they realized he didn't know what he was doing and shit-canned him.

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 08:47 PM
Is there a little symbol for sarcastic? It's okay, I get it anyway ;).

The future of the EPL is going to be interesting if the top few teams continue to rise so much further from the rest of the pack.

The NFL was set up with TV and revenue sharing in mind - that's why a team from a small town in Wisconsin can win the Super Bowl once in a while. Every team (except the Lions :)) has just as good a chance to win it all as any other.

As TV revenue looks like it will simply continue to grow - but not be shared evenly among European teams - the structure of the NFL is looking pretty good.

The biggest drawback for the NFL is the sport itself. I find it boring and no one outside of America is interested in it. But if that league structure gets applied to the world's most popular sport, the league that does that could someday be one of the world's best.
I'm confused is that agreement or not?:D
But I think that the biggest problem with the MLS is that is at the very least 100 years younger than top flight European football, once we've had a hundred years under our belt let's begin to compare compare;)

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 08:49 PM
when he was given 12 games at New York before they realized he didn't know what he was doing and shit-canned him.
That's debatable he did bring them Altidore and the biggest transfer fee out of the MLS ever.

Walnut
04-15-2009, 09:01 PM
That's debatable he did bring them Altidore and the biggest transfer fee out of the MLS ever.

I am pretty sure he was fired for really shitty results, and then hired by TFC and continued to produced really shitty results.

T_Mizz
04-15-2009, 09:05 PM
I am pretty sure he was fired for really shitty results, and then hired by TFC and continued to produced really shitty results.
Well that's probably less debatable but I imagine it was something like Charlie Casserly of the Houston Texans, he had a questionable draft and got fired but it turns out it was the best draft of any team that year.
The second part is not debatable either but he did only have one season at the helm.

Walnut
04-15-2009, 09:07 PM
The second part is not debatable either but he did only have one season at the helm.

Lucky New York...

Calvin
04-15-2009, 10:33 PM
I support them to. This is my team too.

1. I spend a good percentage of my day glued to Toronto FC related news
2. I spend $1800 on season tickets
3. I buy $12 beers at BMO (3 or 4 per game)
4. I own more TFC merchandise then I do clothes all together.
5. I chant all game long until I lose my voice
6. I follow Ricketts on Twitter ;)

and there are many more reasons why I support this team.

On the other hand, I come on here and vent and complain about the team, nothing wrong with that. I am much more of a supporter then alot of people in this city. Also, people who don't complain on these boards or choose to be positive all the time are supporters the same way I am.

WOW. This is great stuff if I ever have to write a paper on cognitive dissidence. I follow so and I think what I do is right, so I convince myself following the team is justified, thus I follow the team more etc..

jloome
04-16-2009, 12:15 AM
WOW. This is great stuff if I ever have to write a paper on cognitive dissidence. I follow so and I think what I do is right, so I convince myself following the team is justified, thus I follow the team more etc..

If you ever have to write a paper on "cognitive dissidence", there's something wrong with your prof.

It's cognitive dissonance, and it refers to the uncomfortable feeling one has when a new belief comes intro contradiction with an existing belief or idea. It has nothing to do with his list, which was an example of citing "effect" as a precursor to "cause."

That's logical fallacy, not cognitive dissonance.

ExiledRed
04-16-2009, 12:53 AM
If you ever have to write a paper on "cognitive dissidence", there's something wrong with your prof.

It's cognitive dissonance, and it refers to the uncomfortable feeling one has when a new belief comes intro contradiction with an existing belief or idea. It has nothing to do with his list, which was an example of citing "effect" as a precursor to "cause."

That's logical fallacy, not cognitive dissonance.

Like I said, higher life form.:conehead:

good one.

jloome
04-16-2009, 09:54 AM
Heheh, actually Calvin's had some pretty smart posts on here. He probably did that forehead thing this morning.

Pachuco
04-16-2009, 10:04 AM
I'm still confused as to what Calvin is trying to get at.

jloome
04-16-2009, 10:11 AM
I'm still confused as to what Calvin is trying to get at.

Cart before the horse argument; he's making fun of the fact that you stated the things in the list were "why" you support TFC, when in fact they're evidence "that" you support TFC.

In other words, you don't support tfc "because I spend money on it", the amount of money you spend on it demonstrates "that you support tfc."

Pachuco
04-16-2009, 10:36 AM
Cart before the horse argument; he's making fun of the fact that you stated the things in the list were "why" you support TFC, when in fact they're evidence "that" you support TFC.

In other words, you don't support tfc "because I spend money on it", the amount of money you spend on it demonstrates "that you support tfc."

I get it. Boy Calvin has too much time on his hands :)

TFC RealDeal RPB
04-16-2009, 06:27 PM
I choose to support my team .......I am a homer.....so regardless I will FOLLOW! Good, bad and horrible....THIS IS MY TEAM!



U and the rest of us,but he is right. Why is there no DP ? ( o ya cause we full r seat's ) shit reason . Whatever i'm used to MLSE not winning any thing.

Walnut
04-16-2009, 09:11 PM
I choose to support my team .......I am a homer.....so regardless I will FOLLOW! Good, bad and horrible....THIS IS MY TEAM!

This kind of passion is lacking from so many sports fans. What we should demand from the owners, management, and players of TFC that they become good, stay good, and get better. This is OUR team -- without US there is no TFC.

From How Soccer Explains the world:

For a week, fans held anti–Van Gaal rallies in front of the Camp Nou. At times, the hecklers turned so vile, so personal, and so distracting that Van Gaal interrupted his training sessions and moved them to another, more private pitch. When I visited the protestors, they looked to be mostly a group of middle-aged men. They stood behind a black iron gate and shouted toward the field, about thirty yards away. Although they only numbered about two dozen, they amplified magnificently. They didn’t have a single message, just insults and quixotic demands for new lineups and new strategies. Because they had been protesting for a week already—and their demand that Van Gaal be fired seemed so close to being met—neither the team nor the media paid them much attention. They solemnly went about their business. I tried to talk to these malcontents. A short stocky man with a combover in a sweater and blazer allowed himself to be momentarily distracted from his shouting. As I approached, his abuses came out so fast that I couldn’t really follow him. It was an unseasonably warm Mediterranean day and he constantly wiped his brow dry with a handkerchief. “Why are you so angry?” I asked. He grabbed my forearm with one hand. It was hard to know if this was a gesture of hostility or intimacy. In the moment, he might not have known himself. “We hate him so much, because we love Barca so much. It hurts.”

Oldtimer
04-18-2009, 07:35 AM
Mo lost his job due to the politics in the NY franchise, NY have averaged almost a coach per year. No coach has ever done well at New York, even the legendary Bruce Arena.

Just to set the record straight.

Now whether he is a good GM, well let's evaluate at the end of this season. I don't think he's a great coach.

We're ahead of RSL in their first two years (the last truly "new" franchise), season 3 needs to be a breakout year, I think we'd all agree about that.

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-18-2009, 08:21 PM
[/b]

was it unrealistic to think we could have beating 2 USl teams and represnet Canada in the ConCacef?

Be honest- i do believe everyone expected us to win. We stunk th joint out. We couldn't deliver in the last deciding match on our home turf in front of diehard fans..........


Yes it was UNREALISTIC...those two clubs have been around for a while now while TFC are the new boys on the block...we didnt stink the joint out the Impact game at BMO was quite good minues the result..no team
has a right to beat any other team...they have to be able to build a team
capable of dooing it, which is what TFC is in the process of doing...it takes more then 3 years to build a contender.

mighty_torontofc_2008
04-19-2009, 02:01 PM
It would force the hand of the owners, to spend some cheddar on some quality players -- and a quality management team.

I do not understand this "give them time" mentality -- are we being given a break on the money we spend on them until they get good -- and if in another three years they still suck will we get a refund (LOL)?

So at the end of the year, if (when) we fail again, and then another year, and then another year -- then we can be upset enough to demand that they get good.

A bad team playing on fake grass, with terrible management -- but give them time.


TFC has no say on the plastic grass...thats the city of TO you has that say..got any complaints forward them to the city council its a year round operated building and grass will not hold up in the winter...you cant expect a winning team so early on...i can see why Leaf fans bitch..they have been losers for 42 years now...TFC is only on year 3, big difference