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View Full Version : Open Letter to Toronto FC RE: Media



mlsintoronto
04-08-2009, 02:21 PM
Please continue your discussion here. I'd prefer if the other thread could die, and if possible be renamed and locked. I'll paste the letter below.

You can direct your questions to the club, and if you really need to single out an individual then let it be me.

Here's Tim's letter:

You are aware that as a result certain journalists in Toronto have characterized TFC fans as ‘hooligans” and being part of a “firm”. You have undoubtedly been made aware that a number of commentators have directly blamed TFC supporters groups like the North End Elite, U Sector and the Red patch Boys for encouraging and not addressing this kind of activity. “Hooligan” and “firm” are terms that some media throw around without apparently understand the true meaning of the words and the serious impact they can have on the reputation of an individual or a group.
You must also be aware that these allegations are for the most part off base. Your own Director of TFC Security stated on a supporters message board this week that “…the behavior of the supporters on Saturday was very good indeed. Other than the throwing of a few cups of beer on the park, during and after the game… it doesn't take a rocket scientist to determine that the overwhelming majority of our supporters come to games with one aim on mind, to watch the Reds win a game of football. But it only takes one or two people who throw things onto the park to have everyone tarred with the same brush. I sincerely encourage the atmosphere we have at BMO, but let’s keep all that energy to supporting the boys and not to doing something stupid that will have a long lasting effect on all of us…”

TFC’s own Director of Security states that he is aware that the actions of a few unaffiliated individuals should not be used to characterize all of us as unruly fans or hooligans. On many occasions Supporters Group members have reported having to address from the general public comments and remarks about alleged hooliganism and behavior that implies that what these individuals are reading about in the media must be true. These comments from the general public are based on the distortions and in some cases outright lies that have been published and have gone unchallenged or corrected by your group.

Toronto FC has marketed the club to a large degree based on the atmosphere and game day experience that the Supporters Groups largely contribute to. Yet when these very individuals and groups, so important to the future success of the club, are slandered and labeled as hooligans and members of firms, we hear nothing from you or your staff to attempt to put the record straight.

I think that before these distortions and half truths become even more believed by the general public it is your group’s responsibility to address these press issues in more of a direct manner. As an employee of a company that owes much of its success to the work and dedication of the Supporters Groups that are so passionate about our club, I strongly feel that you owe us more support and effort to proactively set the record straight than what we have seen from your group to this point. I look forward to your reply.

Thank you
Tim Drodge

JDG
04-08-2009, 03:00 PM
Hello! anyone out there????

This is an invitation to address the issue with the personal attacks.
Speak your mind.

Shaughno
04-08-2009, 03:01 PM
I was still trying to figure out what happened to the last thread...


Also... Champs League is on. :lol: Everyone buggered off.

Pigfynn
04-08-2009, 03:03 PM
I'm here...I'm just confused about the old thread

Roogsy
04-08-2009, 03:05 PM
I wasn't here for the other thread so I don't know what is going on.

Who is Tim and why is Paul posting his letter? I am so confused...LOL! :noidea:

Shaughno
04-08-2009, 03:06 PM
Tim is BGNEWF. Not sure about the rest, there was a thread with plenty of good points. I left for a meeting, came back and this was here...

London
04-08-2009, 03:06 PM
what roogsy said

Pigfynn
04-08-2009, 03:07 PM
It's because some were picking on Michelle. I told you this would happen :)

Wagner
04-08-2009, 03:08 PM
Why isn't the club sticking up for the Supporters?
Specifically the organized groups (RPB, NEE, U-S).

We are a big part of your image/brand/marketing (the pic of guy on the front rail with the red smoke, the '300' series ads, etc)

When we could have used some help, we didn't get any, despite asking for it.

mlsintoronto
04-08-2009, 03:09 PM
I think everyone went to pee at the same time. you should see the lineups...

Wagner
04-08-2009, 03:10 PM
I think everyone went to pee at the same time. you should see the lineups...

i say bring'em back....
http://www.watersave.com.au/uploads/products/images/2x1.8m-troughs.gif

Shaughno
04-08-2009, 03:14 PM
Troughs, only way to go.

Hitcho
04-08-2009, 03:17 PM
Paul

I'm repostiong my addition to the letter here. In essence, my concern is that I now have work colleagues asking me if it is safe to bring their children to TFC games. Some look at me a bit suspiciously when before they were pestering me for my tickets if ever I couldn't make a game. Others have posted similar issues on here recently. I sit in 118 and there are families and kids round all the time - so it's a non-issue in reality.

Ultimately there comes a point when this isn't just about the hurt feelings of the supporters or our sense of injustice. It's now starting to impact on the reputation of the ground as a whole, and that means the club will suffer too, which bothers me a lot more than what some idiots in the press think of us. You guys know that a lot of what has been written is trash and dangerous in what it suggests. So for the sake of the club's image as well as that of the fans, how come nothing has been said to try and paint a fairer picture? (That's not an aggrieved demand, it's just a curious question, in case it comes across wrongly e-speak - just wondering what your guys take on the whole thing is).

Cheers

Hitcho

Hitcho
04-08-2009, 03:24 PM
Roogsy - check your PMs...

Roogsy
04-08-2009, 03:26 PM
Got it...working on it. That sucks.

Shaughno
04-08-2009, 03:35 PM
For the recond I echo Hitcho's sentiments in his first post above. I've had people from co-workers to my grandparents ask me about the hooliganism going on with TFC.

Carts
04-08-2009, 03:38 PM
I must echo the statements to re: work and co-workers (Hitcho / Shaughno)...

I unfortunately have gone back to wearing my black jacket to work over my TFC jacket... First because I was getting sick of the jokes about being tasered - but then the clincher was when I was actually asked by a superior if I was one of the "trouble makers at all the games..." Worst part of that quote 'all the games'...

I wear the team gear and colours with pride, but when it might hurt my career - I must change... :(

Carts...

Roogsy
04-08-2009, 03:38 PM
For the recond I echo Hitcho's sentiments in his first post above. I've had people from co-workers to my grandparents ask me about the hooliganism going on with TFC.

Similar instances have happened to me.

Jack
04-08-2009, 03:39 PM
As have I and I know many others.

As FluSH posted in another thread, the media may enjoy skewering the big stars and sports figures, but these people have lawyers and agents and PR managers etc., while we are mainly just ordinary people who love our team. These are some very ugly allegations and comparisons being drawn here and they are totally off-base and can cause serious problems in the personal lives of those who proudly declare themselves members of RPB.

Dave67
04-08-2009, 03:41 PM
For the recond I echo Hitcho's sentiments in his first post above. I've had people from co-workers to my grandparents ask me about the hooliganism going on with TFC.

Honestly, between my co workers and friends questions about Toronto FC poorly behaved fans are almost coming as often as questions about Beckham when he joined the league.

Now many of these questions/jabs from friends are clearly tongue in cheek, but damn the word sure got out there.

grimm
04-08-2009, 03:42 PM
Jack, instead of us writing everyone we feel like, why not head up a PR team to put out fires? Much like away drum, tailgate teams... ya know? Just a thought. We have many people here who have gigs inside media venues, no?

mlsintoronto
04-08-2009, 03:42 PM
Paul

I'm repostiong my addition to the letter here. In essence, my concern is that I now have work colleagues asking me if it is safe to bring their children to TFC games. Some look at me a bit suspiciously when before they were pestering me for my tickets if ever I couldn't make a game. Others have posted similar issues on here recently. I sit in 118 and there are families and kids round all the time - so it's a non-issue in reality.


This is a very public forum. Understand that as a person who
a) takes enormous pride in what we (Toronto FC and our Supporters...all of you) have achieved in this city and this country.
b) makes my living at Toronto FC and rides the emotional ups and downs with all of you
c) has an 11 and 9 year old who come to every game
d) is potentially more angry at certain news people than you(!)

I need to be very careful about what I say and how I go about it. Please don't take my silence on this issue as indication of anything. Be aware that I am a public figure on this board...it is no secret who I am. And anything I say here will be taken as official MLSEL word. So I can joke, and make light of the lack of urinals at BMO, but I can't join you in vocalizing what is, frankly, outrage. Your comment above (and most of the others I have read) cut to the bone BECAUSE I AGREE.

I need to take several deep breaths...sleep on it...then sometimes comment and other times shut my mouth. This is one of those times. I need to work in the background on this one.

Paul

Pigfynn
04-08-2009, 03:46 PM
...a dish best served cold. I get it, sounds good. :)

Shaughno
04-08-2009, 03:47 PM
Definitely understood Paul. It's just hard to take when it seems like the people you are spending your blood, sweat, tears and money on... doesn't seem to do anything to rectify the situation.

peterboroughtfcfan
04-08-2009, 03:57 PM
This is a very public forum. Understand that as a person who
a) takes enormous pride in what we (Toronto FC and our Supporters...all of you) have achieved in this city and this country.
b) makes my living at Toronto FC and rides the emotional ups and downs with all of you
c) has an 11 and 9 year old who come to every game
d) is potentially more angry at certain news people than you(!)

I need to be very careful about what I say and how I go about it. Please don't take my silence on this issue as indication of anything. Be aware that I am a public figure on this board...it is no secret who I am. And anything I say here will be taken as official MLSEL word. So I can joke, and make light of the lack of urinals at BMO, but I can't join you in vocalizing what is, frankly, outrage. Your comment above (and most of the others I have read) cut to the bone BECAUSE I AGREE.

I need to take several deep breaths...sleep on it...then sometimes comment and other times shut my mouth. This is one of those times. I need to work in the background on this one.

Paul

Paul,As always you've reaffirmed my faith in the management of this club. I'm glad to know you're working through this rationally and not just glazing over the issue. Last week was a long week for supporters of the team and I'm sure it wasn't easy for you guys either. Its my personal feeling that the only way to remedy this terrible issue is to hire a bunch of HOT CHEERLEADERS TO DANCE IN THE SOUTHSIDE STANDS!!!!

peterboroughtfcfan
04-08-2009, 03:58 PM
Paul,As always you've reaffirmed my faith in the management of this club. I'm glad to know you're working through this rationally and not just glazing over the issue. Last week was a long week for supporters of the team and I'm sure it wasn't easy for you guys either. Its my personal feeling that the only way to remedy this terrible issue is to hire a bunch of HOT CHEERLEADERS TO DANCE IN THE SOUTHSIDE STANDS!!!!

Before I get completely flamed I should point out that I'm joking. If I wanted eye candy I'd go to the Brass Rail

Roogsy
04-08-2009, 04:00 PM
I am already there... :hump:

Hitcho
04-08-2009, 04:05 PM
mlsintoronto - completely understand, and thanks for posting to clarify. There are a lot of people feeling maligned by all of this, but who are kind of powerless to do anything about it. Ultimately the best response is to make sure nothing ever happens to feed the media fires further of course, but the problem is it is A) only one or two idiots, and B) they are typically not within the SG fold.

I was actually pretty hurt when colleagues at the law firm I work at came up and started making comments/jokes to me about the TFC "trouble" that goes on. TFC means an awful lot to an awful lot of people (you and your team included) and it's painful to see it being muddied like this after so much work by so many people to establish an amazing atmosphere at BMO Field.

pekduck
04-08-2009, 04:06 PM
thanks paul for standing up and challenge the false allegations and lies

the damage these false images and irresponsible journalism has a deep impact on the social landscape

my coworkers openly makes fun of TFC fans in the company as hooligans, trouble makers after Star's article written by you know who.

i respect them not as soccer fans, but it has gone to a ridiculous stage that these press articles are leading the general public to prejudice and killing any momentum for this sport to grow.

when i was chatting with my colleague, another RPB that our academy 'beat AC Milan' 3-0. the Star reader quickly interjected his witty comment 'oh so your team is physically beating up the other team like you too now?'

i tried to laugh with him but it hurts like hell to see what the damages are to our reputation as a professional sports club as well as all the die hard supporters

Steve
04-08-2009, 04:07 PM
Definitely understood Paul. It's just hard to take when it seems like the people you are spending your blood, sweat, tears and money on... doesn't seem to do anything to rectify the situation.

Yep, I know where you're coming from, but in some ways, what do you expect them to do? They could release a statement that says "our fans are the bestest" but that wouldn't really get to the people who need to hear it, and would sound like they're just protecting their golden goose (how many people here use the acronym ML$E?).

The only thing I can think of that they can do is push their media contacts. The message needs to be in a public medium, and from a third party. It will have to feature quotes and statements for the club, sure, but it can't seem to come from the club or it won't have the same impact (in my mind). To that degree, we can't really tell if anything is going on, can we? For all we know TFC is tapping the MLSE media contacts as we speak (for all we know Brunt's column was already a move by MLSE).

I'm not saying MLSE is doing everything they can, I'm not even saying they're doing anything at all, I'm just saying I understand what a difficult situation Paul has been placed in, and I know I don't envy him. No matter what he does right now, it will be wrong (to some people). The best thing that can happen would be Kelly himself posting a positive article on TFC fans, and having it be on the front page of the star again. I'm not sure if MLSE has the influence (positive or negative) to pull that off, but if they do, that would be optimal.

Also, I have to respect Paul for sticking up for his employees. I'm not sure if (she who will remain nameless) is supposed to be a public figure or not, but it's probably a good idea for Paul to stick himself in between any employee and this message board. Internet message boards are not places for the feint of heart, you have to strike a fine line, and I think Paul does that as well as is possible.

London
04-08-2009, 04:08 PM
i have never been asked about TFC as much as in the last two weeks, kinda sickens me

Shaughno
04-08-2009, 04:09 PM
Agreed Steve, just saying it's frustrating when 'seemingly' nothing is being done, nor can really be done on our (supporters) end.

Arnie Knows
04-08-2009, 04:10 PM
This is a very public forum. Understand that as a person who
a) takes enormous pride in what we (Toronto FC and our Supporters...all of you) have achieved in this city and this country.
b) makes my living at Toronto FC and rides the emotional ups and downs with all of you
c) has an 11 and 9 year old who come to every game
d) is potentially more angry at certain news people than you(!)

I need to be very careful about what I say and how I go about it. Please don't take my silence on this issue as indication of anything. Be aware that I am a public figure on this board...it is no secret who I am. And anything I say here will be taken as official MLSEL word. So I can joke, and make light of the lack of urinals at BMO, but I can't join you in vocalizing what is, frankly, outrage. Your comment above (and most of the others I have read) cut to the bone BECAUSE I AGREE.

I need to take several deep breaths...sleep on it...then sometimes comment and other times shut my mouth. This is one of those times. I need to work in the background on this one.

Paul

I guess why if you ask me YOU have no business coming on the boards and yukking it up .. Your communication should be in private with the supporters and should be on a fairly regular basis ..
Strictly business IMO..
You can't have your cake and eat it too ..
Just surf the board and don't try and be "The Man " on here.. Its tacky

H Bomb
04-08-2009, 04:12 PM
Sorry if I'm late here, but has anything been done officially from the clubs point of view...I love Paul and think he does a top notch job but I want to see something come out from the team supporting the fans they know are not violent "hooligans" or the like. So far we've had backing from Steven Brunt and I'm really glad about that, but our own people have yet to officially back us (please correct me if i'm out of the loop) So again, thanks for the dialogue Paul, you're great, when are you guys gonna get behind us properly?

H Bomb
04-08-2009, 04:13 PM
I guess why if you ask me YOU have no business coming on the boards and yukking it up .. Your communication should be in private with the supporters and should be on a fairly regular basis ..
Strictly business IMO..
You can't have your cake and eat it too ..
Just surf the board and don't try and be "The Man " on here.. Its tacky

:rolleyes:

ignore this paul

James Oliphant
04-08-2009, 04:14 PM
Everyone else ignore it too...no need to take this thread off-topic.

Hitcho
04-08-2009, 04:15 PM
I don;t think the club need to stick up for anyone. This goes beyond the fans.

A simple press statement that a lot of the reporting that has gone on in relation to alleged events at BMO Field is completely inaccurate and giving basic facts about arrests/ejections in comparison to other MLSE sports franchises, without even mentioning the fans by name once, would probably go a long way to setting the issue straight.

If MLSE blows smoke up our arses on this one then the media will have a field day. But if they just come out with basic facts which completely undermine all the crap that's been written, thereby destroying the credinility of the articles which were out of line, people will see through the shit storm that was brewed up.

TFC needs to build and maintain good relations with the Toronto and national press, not make enemies out of them by leaning on them at this stage. Approaching them quietly to say look, we appreciate your take as a journalist but this piece was a bit out of line, and offering to work with them going forward to help portray a more realistic assessment of the club and its fans would likely be far more constructive. if the shit storm stills comes round, then MLSE has a basis to appraoch the editors of the media in question and give them all fucking hell, threatening to cut off access to Leaf andRaptor coverage etc if they don;t stop fucking us over on the TFC side. But at this stage, a constructive approach seems better to me. I'd like to have the media all on side and accurately reporting on all things TFC in a balanced way, because I think we can be justifiably proud of our club in pretty much every respect.

Arnie Knows
04-08-2009, 04:15 PM
:rolleyes:

ignore this paul


Does no one agree with my sentiments

bgnewf
04-08-2009, 04:19 PM
I want to thank you all for the positive comments and constructive criticism to my open letter.

And to you Paul I appreciate that you apparently understand how personally hurt and offended many of your most loyal supporters have been in the past couple of weeks by the remarks from friends, family and co-workers about the alleged hooliganism and violence we apparently are the "root cause" of.

My intention today was to openly ask the club to see if they understand how this is impacting us and that this type of issue can be most effectively addressed by both the supporters groups AND the club working together to dispel the myths that are fast becoming apparent truths to those not in the know.

I look forward to your response

Tim "bgnewf" Drodge

H Bomb
04-08-2009, 04:21 PM
A simple press statement that a lot of the reporting that has gone on in relation to alleged events at BMO Field is completely inaccurate and giving basic facts about arrests/ejections in comparison to other MLSE sports franchises, without even mentioning the fans by name once, would probably go a long way to setting the issue straight.



I agree completely....and am quite surprised we haven't seen anything of the sort now many many days after the reports

Parkdale
04-08-2009, 04:21 PM
hey Arnie - you notice that there's only ONE person from TFC FO on these boards?
Someone has to monitor these boards, because it's the best open forum for
communication between dedicated supporters.

Instead of having every person employed by TFC on these boards,
all the concerns go right though the guy at the top.

Paul is doing what any good manager should be doing --
protecting his employees from angry clients (us) and taking the
weight on to his own shoulders. I don't think he's doing it for kicks,
and there's been lots of things in the past that could have just pushed
him away for good. (like BMO Field leaving after being called a cunt)

what's my point? Paul doesn't HAVE to be here at all, and we (and the whole
supporters community) have greatly benefited from having him around.

as for the other topic, if Paul has issue with someone on his staff,
that doesn't need to be talked about here. I'm sure he's seen the
sentiment of some members in regards to that issue.

Hitcho
04-08-2009, 04:21 PM
I guess why if you ask me YOU have no business coming on the boards and yukking it up .. Your communication should be in private with the supporters and should be on a fairly regular basis ..
Strictly business IMO..
You can't have your cake and eat it too ..
Just surf the board and don't try and be "The Man " on here.. Its tacky

:noidea: clueless, just clueless.

grizzle
04-08-2009, 04:21 PM
I think its in the club's best interest to make these myths go away. After all, things like this will affect ticket sales which then affects concession and apparel sales.

Hitcho
04-08-2009, 04:22 PM
Does no one agree with my sentiments

NO!!!! :mad:

Arnie Knows
04-08-2009, 04:34 PM
hey Arnie - you notice that there's only ONE person from TFC FO on these boards?
Someone has to monitor these boards, because it's the best open forum for
communication between dedicated supporters.

Instead of having every person employed by TFC on these boards,
all the concerns go right though the guy at the top.

Paul is doing what any good manager should be doing --
protecting his employees from angry clients (us) and taking the
weight on to his own shoulders. I don't think he's doing it for kicks,
and there's been lots of things in the past that could have just pushed
him away for good. (like BMO Field leaving after being called a cunt)



what's my point? Paul doesn't HAVE to be here at all, and we (and the whole
supporters community) have greatly benefited from having him around.

as for the other topic, if Paul has issue with someone on his staff,
that doesn't need to be talked about here. I'm sure he's seen the
sentiment of some members in regards to that issue.


Well I guess I have a different opinion .. Whatever Paul does is fine I guess..
One day you will understand.. maybe

Parkdale
04-08-2009, 04:55 PM
One day you will understand.. maybe

yep, one day we will all understand you.. maybe

twistedchinaman
04-08-2009, 04:56 PM
This letter probably says all that is needed -- we are being tarred with the same labels that certain ignorant writers who refuse to do their "homework" have slapped onto those who are the troublemakers. I am sure the effect will come at me out West sooner rather than later (since I do wear my gear with pride on the streets of Calgary), but yes, we need FO to say something.

It is great that you are aware of this, Paul. But for the sake of my brothers and sisters in Toronto -- I beseech you to help us defend against these smears.

Hitcho
04-08-2009, 05:14 PM
^ I think it's really important that the club isn't smeared either though. if parents start telling their kids it's not safe to go to games and/or cut them off from the BMO Field experience based on groundless accusations of hooliganism, then that's a really shitty outlook for the club, the league and the sport in canada.

I'm sure Paul and his team are aware that it's the club as well as the fans getting hit by this now, but it's important to tackle the damage on all fronts I think - to the fans and the club. We are, after all, fairly closely linked and one cannot really exist without the other.

scooter
04-08-2009, 05:21 PM
paul
concern and support on this appreciated
unfortunatly i dont even think mlse can contain these sensationalistic journalists
and maybe a statement by the team might be bad for the club
we need to think about this some more i know our executive is talking about it
out of my area of expertise
hopefully we can over come this together because i would hate to loose the great atmosphere and freindships that have become a passion for us in supporting tfc

twistedchinaman
04-08-2009, 05:34 PM
^ I think it's really important that the club isn't smeared either though. if parents start telling their kids it's not safe to go to games and/or cut them off from the BMO Field experience based on groundless accusations of hooliganism, then that's a really shitty outlook for the club, the league and the sport in canada.

I'm sure Paul and his team are aware that it's the club as well as the fans getting hit by this now, but it's important to tackle the damage on all fronts I think - to the fans and the club. We are, after all, fairly closely linked and one cannot really exist without the other.


This is why I'm planning a media blitz out West...it's time to get our name out there, get those positives out there. I think we need to show our positive side; show that we are real true people, not just in Toronto but all the way out West.

I don't do this unless I believe strongly in a cause; and this has made me quite upset.

Suds
04-08-2009, 05:56 PM
Does no one agree with my sentiments

You're entitled to your opinion, however, I do not agree with it.

s2cazz
04-08-2009, 06:24 PM
best way to make this all disappear would be to hire a high profile DP... and not someone who is going to smear the clubs name like Beckham did to LA...turn media attention away from the fans and the "hooliganism" ghost (its apparently ther but no one in the building can see it lol) and focus it back where it belongs...on the pitch

people will forget about this whole nightmare of a situation... and when the next columbus away game comes around really screw them by not sending a single fan to that city... instead find a way to show the game and raise money for a charity and show these journalist what good and honest people the supporters of TFC really are!

McHaggis
04-08-2009, 07:00 PM
Does no one agree with my sentiments

Not in the least.

McHaggis
04-08-2009, 07:02 PM
best way to make this all disappear would be to hire a high profile DP... and not someone who is going to smear the clubs name like Beckham did to LA...turn media attention away from the fans and the "hooliganism" ghost (its apparently ther but no one in the building can see it lol) and focus it back where it belongs...on the pitch

people will forget about this whole nightmare of a situation... and when the next columbus away game comes around really screw them by not sending a single fan to that city... instead find a way to show the game and raise money for a charity and show these journalist what good and honest people the supporters of TFC really are!

I don't agree with your first suggestion that bringing in a DP will help this particular situation at all.
I DO agree wholeheartedly with your second suggestion about the fans staying away from Columbus next time...that might make an impact.

s2cazz
04-08-2009, 07:08 PM
I don't agree with your first suggestion that bringing in a DP will help this particular situation at all.
I DO agree wholeheartedly with your second suggestion about the fans staying away from Columbus next time...that might make an impact.
The first suggestion is something used in business and politics all the time... its a diversion tactic... it will make the fas happy again and bring them out of the lull... I was at the game on sat and even before we were losing the atmosphere wasn't the same... the fans are upset... and losing doesn't help either... you bring in a DP and get the attention focused on that people will start to get i a better mood trust me...

and the second would hit Columbus where it counts... in the wallet!

Naturegirl
04-08-2009, 07:27 PM
best way to make this all disappear would be to hire a high profile DP... and not someone who is going to smear the clubs name like Beckham did to LA...turn media attention away from the fans and the "hooliganism" ghost (its apparently ther but no one in the building can see it lol) and focus it back where it belongs...on the pitch

people will forget about this whole nightmare of a situation... and when the next columbus away game comes around really screw them by not sending a single fan to that city... instead find a way to show the game and raise money for a charity and show these journalist what good and honest people the supporters of TFC really are!

hear hear!!!

Nerepis
04-08-2009, 07:51 PM
Does no one agree with my sentiments

Arnie Doesn't Know!

Roogsy
04-08-2009, 07:52 PM
I will be extremely disappointed if we send a single fan to that armpit of a city. After the way they treated us, Toronto fans should spend a single dime there until they recognize their errors.

Parkdale
04-08-2009, 07:53 PM
and because we're playing the Crew away twice in one season, the difference will be easy to see.

sulfur
04-08-2009, 07:57 PM
The thing that struck me the most was when:
a) my mom asked me if I was one of the hooligans that Cathal Kelly was talking about and if I was anywhere near the racist incident, when she damn well knows better.
b) CoachGT told me that one of his co-workers asked him if he was one of the people involved in this troublemaking and if it was safe for families at BMO and said worker knows that Coach takes his daughter to most every game.

Walking down the street in Toronto with RPB or TFC clothing used to get me nods and smiles from people. Now most people look at us with some sense of suspicion, like we're in gang or something similar.

klampy
04-08-2009, 07:58 PM
and when the next columbus away game comes around really screw them by not sending a single fan to that city... instead find a way to show the game and raise money for a charity and show these journalist what good and honest people the supporters of TFC really are!

Brilliant!! :)



I guess why if you ask me YOU have no business coming on the boards and yukking it up .. Your communication should be in private with the supporters and should be on a fairly regular basis ..
Strictly business IMO..
You can't have your cake and eat it too ..
Just surf the board and don't try and be "The Man " on here.. Its tacky

Not so brilliant. :(

king dave
04-08-2009, 07:58 PM
As a kind of post-Columbus review.
I had some beers and discussed the events in Columbus with one of our RPB senior-statesman last night.
Here's a few points I wish to bring up regarding the touchstone NOW to be refered to as Columbus.
1 We brought an army of support. (all 3 times).
2 They don't like us. (Mayor, FO, supporters, etc. have gone on record).
3 We don't like them. (lack of toilets for 2,000+ visiting supporters, mace, tazing, etc.).
4 Why in the fuck would we even consider injecting more $$ into that fucking hole when other cities with a lot more potential are awaiting a spot in the MLS? (Philly, Portland, Montreal, etc.).
Hey Paul?
If you talk to some of the TFC 'Road Warriors' you will hear nothing but praise about our hosts in L.A., New England, D.C., and Charelston.
We travel well everywhere but 1 place!
So why in the fuck should we go back?
OOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhCAAAAAANAADA!
KD.

Hustle
04-08-2009, 08:04 PM
TFC F.O cannot be looked to for public defense of the supporter groups on this issue. Its a slippery slope defending groups they have no control over, no matter how reprehensible the slander. They are not going to get into a mud slinging fight with writers who thrive on sensationalism because its a losing battle.

What F.O can do in the future is offer PRIVATE support and P.R resources to the Executive of the supporters groups on the best way to deal with difficult situations. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think any of the leadership would be against having the F.O's opinion and more importantly full time resources to help draft an action plan to deal with these types of problems.

Although they cannot get behind us publicly, MLSE needs to never forget how important the supporters are to the success of the club and privately help in whatever way possible.

BOYCOTT CREW STADIUM

king dave
04-08-2009, 08:08 PM
TFC F.O cannot be looked to for public defense of the supporter groups

BOYCOTT CREW STADIUM
10 points - Hustle!
KD.

Roogsy
04-08-2009, 08:10 PM
As a kind of post-Columbus review.
I had some beers and discussed the events in Columbus with one of our RPB senior-statesman last night.
Here's a few points I wish to bring up regarding the touchstone NOW to be refered to as Columbus.
1 We brought an army of support. (all 3 times).
2 They don't like us. (Mayor, FO, supporters, etc. have gone on record).
3 We don't like them. (lack of toilets for 2,000+ visiting supporters, mace, tazing, etc.).
4 Why in the fuck would we even consider injecting more $$ into that fucking hole when other cities with a lot more potential are awaiting a spot in the MLS? (Philly, Portland, Montreal, etc.).
Hey Paul?
If you talk to some of the TFC 'Road Warriors' you will hear nothing but praise about our hosts in L.A., New England, D.C., and Charelston.
We travel well everywhere but 1 place!
So why in the fuck should we go back?
OOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhCAAAAAANAADA!
KD.

That is all that needs to be said.

QFFT.

/end thread.

Nodoubtguy
04-08-2009, 08:11 PM
4 Why in the fuck would we even consider injecting more $$ into that fucking hole when other cities with a lot more potential are awaiting a spot in the MLS? (Philly, Portland, Montreal, etc.).
Hey Paul?
If you talk to some of the TFC 'Road Warriors' you will hear nothing but praise about our hosts in L.A., New England, D.C., and Charelston.
We travel well everywhere but 1 place!
So why in the fuck should we go back?
OOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhCAAAAAANAADA!
KD.

KD got it on the money......

s2cazz
04-08-2009, 08:17 PM
As a kind of post-Columbus review.
I had some beers and discussed the events in Columbus with one of our RPB senior-statesman last night.
Here's a few points I wish to bring up regarding the touchstone NOW to be refered to as Columbus.
1 We brought an army of support. (all 3 times).
2 They don't like us. (Mayor, FO, supporters, etc. have gone on record).
3 We don't like them. (lack of toilets for 2,000+ visiting supporters, mace, tazing, etc.).
4 Why in the fuck would we even consider injecting more $$ into that fucking hole when other cities with a lot more potential are awaiting a spot in the MLS? (Philly, Portland, Montreal, etc.).
Hey Paul?
If you talk to some of the TFC 'Road Warriors' you will hear nothing but praise about our hosts in L.A., New England, D.C., and Charelston.
We travel well everywhere but 1 place!
So why in the fuck should we go back?
OOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhCAAAAAANAADA!
KD.
TO THE POINT!...
KING DAVE FOR PRIME MINISTER!

oops sorry nevermind that would be a demotion... he's the king!

king dave
04-08-2009, 08:30 PM
As one of TFCs supporter groups, we have to be held to account at the end of any match-day.
I don't think we need a PR/publicist/douchebag to give us the correct spin before/on/after any given match.
We are the largest, organized supporters group in North America.
And quite likely, the most friendliest:D.
Let the media attach themselves like the leeches that they are.
Hey, when you jump in a lake and you get a leech?
Just give it a flick!
KD.

Roogsy
04-08-2009, 08:42 PM
As one of TFCs supporter groups, we have to be held to account at the end of any match-day.
I don't think we need a PR/publicist/douchebag to give us the correct spin before/on/after any given match.
We are the largest, organized supporters group in North America.
And quite likely, the most friendliest:D.
Let the media attach themselves like the leeches that they are.
Hey, when you jump in a lake and you get a leech?
Just give it a flick!
KD.

This is what kills me the most. This group goes out of it's way to promote a safe and classy way to support our team, including establishing good relationships with other supporters groups, much to the chagrin of other supporters in Toronto and elsewhere, and yet somehow it is OUR name that was dragged through the mud. It's like blaming the Osmonds for death metal.

Suds
04-08-2009, 08:47 PM
It's like blaming the Osmonds for death metal.

This is a serious matter that has had me down this week ... but that comment just made me laugh!! Thanks for that.

CretanBull
04-08-2009, 08:56 PM
Next invasion? UTAH!

s2cazz
04-08-2009, 09:02 PM
Next invasion? UTAH!
they'd probably be friendlier!

grizzle
04-08-2009, 09:05 PM
4 Why in the fuck would we even consider injecting more $$ into that fucking hole when other cities with a lot more potential are awaiting a spot in the MLS? (Philly, Portland, Montreal, etc.).


Umm, to support the team. Isn't that the point of going to away games in the first place?

sully
04-08-2009, 09:07 PM
Below is the letter I sent to the editor of the Toronto Star. I wasn't surprised that they didn't bother to respond....

--------------------------
Dear Sir/Madam,

As an avid Toronto FC fan, I was greatly offended by the recent article on your newspaper from April 5th Keeping the lid on soccer fanatics, by Cathal Kelly.

Firstly, I was surprised to be labelled as belonging to a 'firm'. To clarify, I am not a member of any politically extremist organization and/or any group that engages in organized violent conflict with supporters of other teams and police. However, I can only suspect that Cathal Kelly did not bother to take the time to research what the term can actually mean. Nontheless, I'm sure you'll agree, ignorance cannot be an excuse for the press.

Secondly, I am not a "wannabe British hooligan", as Cathal Kelly implies by quoting an anonymous police officer. Further, if Cathal Kelly would like to prescribe how a Canadian is supposed to behave in the most diverse city in the world he is welcome to, but do not disparage my background.

Cathal Kelly reported that the "Police say they eject anywhere from five to 10 supporters a game". Cathal Kelly might be interested to know that this is not an exceptional number out of 20,000 spectators and is actually akin to the corresponding statistic at the ACC. However, Cathal Kelly's hyperbole is the point of his article I suspect.

Cathal Kelly also mentioned the supposed "racial abuse of a player last season". I suspect that Cathal Kelly is actually referring to one incident in Columbus, Ohio, last season when one member of a supporters group there was santioned for racially abusing a player. The league rightly responded at that time with condemnation of the incident. I absolutely resent being associated with racism. it is inudendo and accusation not based on any fact.

As a Toronto FC season ticket holder I know BMO Field is a place where people of all backgrounds and ages are welcome, and are welcome to express themselves to the fullest in support of Toronto FC in a respectful manner. Cathal Kelly's sensational and grossly unbalanced reporting is disappointing and I hope it will not detract from this.

Please let me know the steps the Toronto Star will take to put to rights this appalling reporting.

Nazzer
04-08-2009, 09:22 PM
I'm confused here. Does everybody here really have that hard of a time understanding why the 'supporters' are getting such a bad rep. In columbus Toronto fans ripped out part of the Crew Stadium and threw it towards the field, and there was no response from the Front Office. It seems to me like the open letter has asked the office to make sure everybody understands that the TFC supporters are as cool as Garber says they are. none of that needs to happen, what the front office needs to do is single out the perpetrators, name them, and ban them from MLS games for life.

If the clubs response is to pat the supporters on the back as is what seems to be being asked, the hooligan like behaviour from a few will continue (beer throwing/Ljungberg). If the club bans the idiots who do wrong and make examples of them, it will stop.

Hitcho
04-08-2009, 10:08 PM
Ok, let's clear something up here. No-one is asking for the club for to come out and praise the supporters, or they shouldn't be if they are. Doing so would make the fans and the club look like smoke blowing idiots.

But there's no reason why MLSE cannot come out and make a simple factual statement about actual statistics from TFC games to dispel the shit that is being hinted at by some sections of the media. It doesn't have to be a fan kiss-ass session, it can easily be MLSE protecting its image and investment. AT the very least they could compare TFC games to leaf and raptor games and point out that there is no difference. Why the fuck should we be hung outto dry by the media when we support our team louder and better than any other fans in the city?!

Besides which irrespective of the fans this is now impacting on the club itself (see above posts). So regardless of how we feel we've been treated, MLSE should be taking steps to defend the club and the game day atmosphere simply to ensure a generation of kids aren't kept away from the non-existent hooligans. because it seems like that's where the media is pushing things at the moment.

Roogsy
04-08-2009, 10:14 PM
I'm confused here. Does everybody here really have that hard of a time understanding why the 'supporters' are getting such a bad rep. In columbus Toronto fans ripped out part of the Crew Stadium and threw it towards the field, and there was no response from the Front Office. It seems to me like the open letter has asked the office to make sure everybody understands that the TFC supporters are as cool as Garber says they are. none of that needs to happen, what the front office needs to do is single out the perpetrators, name them, and ban them from MLS games for life.

If the clubs response is to pat the supporters on the back as is what seems to be being asked, the hooligan like behaviour from a few will continue (beer throwing/Ljungberg). If the club bans the idiots who do wrong and make examples of them, it will stop.


Have you been paying attention at all or simply decided to jump in at the last moment without a shred of knowledge of the facts?

Just one question. Were you in Columbus?

Four 4 Two
04-08-2009, 11:11 PM
Settle down Roogsey, he makes a half decent point! Media will ALWAYS pick up on the negative, fuck, negative sells and they found what COULD be perceived as negative from the first two matches!! If the FO or ML$E came out and told reporters that it is infact what it is (a few idiots spoiling it for our reputation) no one would print it, no one would read it and no one would care......boring story!!!! It would make me feel better to know that they are aware that we are for themost part "good" or at least not "hooligans".
Either way, the bad press does suck. I'm in a professional client management position and i hate to say it but due to funny looks and questions over these past days from clients......I no longer wear my TFC pin on my jacket.

Roogsy
04-08-2009, 11:19 PM
His half-decent point gets undone by the completely erroneous statement.

TFC supporters did not "rip out" part of Crew stadium. I was right there. I saw it. Yes, some idiot threw it over...I still shake my head at that. But this has been discussed over and over. And inaccurate statements like that is exactly what Catheter picked up on to the exclusion of the facts. So yeah...I have a problem with it.

That and the "hooligan like behaviour" which he describes the beer throwing instances. Another ridiculous statement.

So make your point. But just like we want to hold the media accountable, we will not permit inaccuracies here to go unchecked either. Especially since it has become obvious WE are the medias "source" as ludicrous as that is, it's true.

Gixmo
04-08-2009, 11:23 PM
The looks on the street are nuts & I agree, being asked if I was one of the 'firm members' is just nuts. I have a sewn the RPB logo into my left sleeve - Instantly, That meant I was a hooligan with the rest. Simply not fair, and somewhat profiling. I'm proud to belong, I'm proud to state that I've been around since the start.. I'm proud to be red - Regardless of what the media says.. If you were truly in Columbus, You'd see the pain we are pushed through - It's not right, but it's an opinion... in a public forum at that...

I don't even have the star, and I wrote a letter for them either way. It is not acceptable for a national paper to run inaccurate information.

As for the 'idiots in Columbus' - I'm under the impression that those who were responsible for the idiot acts were promptly identified through picture submissions and the RPB Mgmt group did their piece. I was embarrasd by this individual.

Let's focus on the positives
- This Saturdays Food Drive
- This Saturdays crushing defeat of Dallas
- We have a mgmt group who CARES about us

I also support the screw Columbus in July option - The bottom line is going to hurt - I've seen better attendance at a JR A hockey game then Columbus. Its unfortunate since we brought all that cash to them.. I'm all for a charity event

We know we are better then what was wrote - Send the letter, make the point & move on.

Bring your voices, Bring the noise, Bring your flags & hang your banners. Let's forget about Seattle & Columbus and show that we will not be held back, We will not succumb to the media.

We are Supporters - Support! -AllForOne

(For the record, Kelly's a douchebag)

king dave
04-09-2009, 08:07 AM
Umm, to support the team. Isn't that the point of going to away games in the first place?
Agreed. But as supporters, we can't send 2,000+ to each away game.
We will have to pick and choose the road trips where we will represent in numbers. Sure, Columbus being the closest MLS team to Toronto (at the moment) will always have a couple of hundred TFC supporters traveling to the match. That's a given.
Just saying that the RPBs and all the other SGs are very important to MLS. Just ask DG.
Listen, I've been on numerous road trips in the last 3 years and every city but one boasted a healthy, welcoming, well supported and competative football team and atmosphere.
KD.

dupont
04-09-2009, 08:31 AM
It's funny to me how quickly people forget things they hear in the media. For the first 2 days after all the hooligan reports a lot of people were bugging me about how it must be dangerous at the games etc etc..
I guess the news must have moved on to something else already because the last couple days now everyone has reverted back to "are you going to the game this weekend? I wish I had tickets!"

I know it's anecdotal evidence but I think it's pretty telling of how much of a short term memory people really have when it comes to these things. In the span of just a week I've felt it improve already so in a couple months I doubt anyone will even be thinking about this (I hope)

However, this is still an important issue that needs to be dealt with because if it keeps getting repeated over and over by hack "journalists" then it will really become permanently ingrained in the average person's mind.

Detroit_TFC
04-09-2009, 08:39 AM
I haven't been on as many away trips as some but enough to see the important differences between going to Columbus or say KC. Almost all of our away trips are SG affairs, involving people very closely aligned with the SGs, knowledgable about away trips,etc. The beginning of the season Columbus trip is the exception, in its size and in the wide variety of people attending in the away section. Maybe we need to change the character of that one odd trip to Columbus.

This may be a dumb suggestion but I'll make it anyway. The Toronto SG groups should control the entire away Columbus ticket allocation, even if it is a smaller allocation. If somebody out of the blue wants to go, let them sit in the general seating. This is not an ideal arrangement but how can we self-police when half the people in the section we may not have ever seen before.

olegunnar
04-09-2009, 08:43 AM
I think there are two issues/complaints that are vaild....the "firm" references and the accusation of racism. Those two errors are very serious and flat out wrong.

The rest...get over it and grow up. You expect the FO to babysit the media and take the heat for your actions?

Don't want people from the national post writing articles about people pissing on fences...don't post pictures of it.

Don't want the sun to have a picture of a guy getting tased on the front page? Don't post youtube videos of it.

I saw a picture on flickr of someone throwing the broken railing at Columbus...how did I find it? It was posted here. How do you think the other stuff was found? How many threads do you think are used as material for articles? Positive AND negative.

I'm not saying we should cover up negative behaviour...I'm just saying people have to be smarter and realize that pimping yourself in the media and online as the biggest group, will get you a lot of attention. Positive and negative attention. People need to be adults and understand and handle this.

It seems to me like people like to bask in the positive attention...but a little bit of self inflicted negative attention and they cry to their mommy (MLSE) for help.

Like I said...I think the FO should use their influence to squash the "firm" and "racisim" stuff...that's wrong and unwarrented.

The other stuff...it's up to the groups to figure out. Dont' want the finger poitned at you when things arent' rosey?
Then don't be the biggest f-ing target.

GabrielHurl
04-09-2009, 08:45 AM
I must echo the statements to re: work and co-workers (Hitcho / Shaughno)...

I unfortunately have gone back to wearing my black jacket to work over my TFC jacket... First because I was getting sick of the jokes about being tasered - but then the clincher was when I was actually asked by a superior if I was one of the "trouble makers at all the games..." Worst part of that quote 'all the games'...

I wear the team gear and colours with pride, but when it might hurt my career - I must change... :(Carts...

Seriously Carts? :noidea:

tfcleeds
04-09-2009, 08:46 AM
I guess I can consider myself lucky that I haven't experienced the same ostracism, if you want to call it that, from colleagues and people on the street for being a TFC supporter - at least not yet. However, it saddens me that so many people have felt the need to stop wearing TFC-related clothing, or pins, etc. or have stopped talking about TFC or RPB around the watercooler at work because of disapproval from bosses, etc. for being associated with them.

This just goes to show how willing people are to believe whatever is written in the newspapers, and how much influence hacks like Cathal Kelly can have, and how their lack of journalistic integrity has gotten us into this mess.

It will be a sad day if I feel I need to stop wearing my TFC jersey or scarf because I might get looks of suspicion or disapproval from people on the subway, that doing so might somehow hinder my career path. If someone makes a comment to me about it, I'll look at it as an opportunity to set the record straight - and I think that's what we all need to do to a degree. I think we need to think of these situations as opportunities to educate people that what happened in Columbus or at BMO is NOT hooliganism, because let's face it, most people who are not soccer fans won't know the difference and will latch on to it because the media says so.

Remember, crisis = opportunity.

GabrielHurl
04-09-2009, 08:55 AM
Are you guys serious?

You are actually going to think about not wearing the colours because of what other people may think about you?

Arnie Knows
04-09-2009, 08:56 AM
Nice to see Paul is stepping away from the vehicle.....

tfcleeds
04-09-2009, 09:01 AM
Are you guys serious?

You are actually going to think about not wearing the colours because of what other people may think about you?

Not I. That's what I was more or less trying to say. Screw what other people think, I'm still going to wear the "colours" with pride - if people make comments or accusations, I'll just set the record straight.

Its absolutely unbelievable that it has come to this point, all the more reason for us to fight back and make our voices heard above the obnoxious din of the Cuntal Kellys and Gareth Wankers.

Jack
04-09-2009, 09:07 AM
Are you guys serious?

You are actually going to think about not wearing the colours because of what other people may think about you?
Not think, Gabriel, but actions.

If this media-driven perception costs you a promotion or even costs you your job or a future job, then that's taking food off your family's table.

I know it's an extreme example and I also know that I have nothing to hide, but not everyone is surrounded by such understanding people.

Hitcho
04-09-2009, 09:11 AM
I think there are two issues/complaints that are vaild....the "firm" references and the accusation of racism. Those two errors are very serious and flat out wrong.

The rest...get over it and grow up. You expect the FO to babysit the media and take the heat for your actions?

Don't want people from the national post writing articles about people pissing on fences...don't post pictures of it.

Don't want the sun to have a picture of a guy getting tased on the front page? Don't post youtube videos of it.

I saw a picture on flickr of someone throwing the broken railing at Columbus...how did I find it? It was posted here. How do you think the other stuff was found? How many threads do you think are used as material for articles? Positive AND negative.

I'm not saying we should cover up negative behaviour...I'm just saying people have to be smarter and realize that pimping yourself in the media and online as the biggest group, will get you a lot of attention. Positive and negative attention. People need to be adults and understand and handle this.

It seems to me like people like to bask in the positive attention...but a little bit of self inflicted negative attention and they cry to their mommy (MLSE) for help.

Like I said...I think the FO should use their influence to squash the "firm" and "racisim" stuff...that's wrong and unwarrented.

The other stuff...it's up to the groups to figure out. Dont' want the finger poitned at you when things arent' rosey?
Then don't be the biggest f-ing target.

Again, and this goes for everyone posting "get over it" type posts, the complaint is NOT about fair and accurate reporting. If a whole bunch of people piss on a fence at an away game, then that can be reported. If there is one idiot who gets arrested for being unruly, then it's news and it;s fair game for the press.

What is NOT acceptable, and what people are complainign about, is to take an isolated incident or two and use them to paint a picture of 20,000 thugs who hurl abuse and projectiles at the police, opposing players and anyone else who gets in their way to the point where the general public in the GTA starts to worry about just what the hell is going on at BMO Field and is it safe to bring my kids there or even speak to people they know to be TFC supporters.

Put it this way - if you got caught up in a street fight by accident, threw a punch in self defence and ran away, how would you feel about seeing your picture on the front page of the Star with an arrticle describing you as a hooligan and a thug, not safe to be around and generally destroying your character and reputation, which was seen by your family, friends and colleagues and people in the street who didn;t even know you but believed it and recoiled on seeing you in public? Do you think thatw ould be fair reporting? Because it's not all that far off what is happening to TFC right now.

Report what happens, fine. Make a story out of it, fine. But don't blow it up into some armageddon type scenario and slander 20,000+ fans when in fact BMO Field is probably less of a venue for that kind of thing than the ACC and Rogers Centre. It's the degree of hyperbole that most people are upset about, not the fact that the few unsavoury incidents have been reported.

Having said that, you make a good point about not feeding the fires with posts of material the press would not otherwise have and can then use to enflame the situation.

Mark in Ottawa
04-09-2009, 09:16 AM
As a kind of post-Columbus review.
I had some beers and discussed the events in Columbus with one of our RPB senior-statesman last night.
Here's a few points I wish to bring up regarding the touchstone NOW to be refered to as Columbus.
1 We brought an army of support. (all 3 times).
2 They don't like us. (Mayor, FO, supporters, etc. have gone on record).
3 We don't like them. (lack of toilets for 2,000+ visiting supporters, mace, tazing, etc.).
4 Why in the fuck would we even consider injecting more $$ into that fucking hole when other cities with a lot more potential are awaiting a spot in the MLS? (Philly, Portland, Montreal, etc.).
Hey Paul?
If you talk to some of the TFC 'Road Warriors' you will hear nothing but praise about our hosts in L.A., New England, D.C., and Charelston.
We travel well everywhere but 1 place!
So why in the fuck should we go back?
OOOOOOOOOOOhhhhhhhhCAAAAAANAADA!
KD.
^^ +1

olegunnar
04-09-2009, 09:18 AM
Again, and this goes for everyone posting "get over it" type posts, the complaint is NOT about fair and accurate reporting. If a whole bunch of people piss on a fence at an away game, then that can be reported. If there is one idiot who gets arrested for being unruly, then it's news and it;s fair game for the press.

What is NOT acceptable, and what people are complainign about, is to take an isolated incident or two and use them to paint a picture of 20,000 thugs who hurl abuse and projectiles at the police, opposing players and anyone else who gets in their way to the point where the general public in the GTA starts to worry about just what the hell is going on at BMO Field and is it safe to bring my kids there or even speak to people they know to be TFC supporters.

Put it this way - if you got caught up in a street fight by accident, threw a punch in self defence and ran away, how would you feel about seeing your picture on the front page of the Star with an arrticle describing you as a hooligan and a thug, not safe to be around and generally destroying your character and reputation, which was seen by your family, friends and colleagues and people in the street who didn;t even know you but believed it and recoiled on seeing you in public? Do you think thatw ould be fair reporting? Because it's not all that far off what is happening to TFC right now.

Report what happens, fine. Make a story out of it, fine. But don't blow it up into some armageddon type scenario and slander 20,000+ fans when in fact BMO Field is probably less of a venue for that kind of thing than the ACC and Rogers Centre. It's the degree of hyperbole that most people are upset about, not the fact that the few unsavoury incidents have been reported.

Having said that, you make a good point about not feeding the fires with posts of material the press would not otherwise have and can then use to enflame the situation.


Again and this goes for everyone posting "it's no fair they're painting with a broad brush" type posts.

You don't like the attention? Then don't seek it out.

For example...crap happens at a Blue Jay game. who did it? I dunno...some random drunk. There's no organized groups or at least none that the mainstream have ever heard of.

Contrast that with...

Crap happens at a TFC game...who did it? Well I've heard of RPB...They do headshaves and sold a calendar of FSWC and they have their president on the fan590...they have signs and scarves I see everywhere...and that giant BBQ everyweek.

Lazy/biased journo thinks...They're organized...they're all for one...must be typical behaviour for the whole group...pretty believeable for people that dont' know better too.

What warrents a story more...a random drunk...or a group of organized drunks?
What's the easier assumption to justify as a problem issue...a random person or a group?

Who's the easier/bigger target?

Arnie Knows
04-09-2009, 09:21 AM
NOBODY cares anymore about the Columbus incident .. Seriously its long over except for on the supporters boards..
We need to take a peek outside in reality .. All things are not TFC centric.

get over it ... Its OVER

eustacchio
04-09-2009, 09:22 AM
^ I get your point, but it doesn't excuse lazy journalism, which I think is the bigger point.


ps the arrow is pointing past the above comment (Arnie posted before I could).

TFCREDNWHITE
04-09-2009, 09:24 AM
Im not going back to Columbus.

Please see King Dave's Post....

I'd rather spend my money elsewhere........

alexintoronto
04-09-2009, 09:25 AM
... Its OVER


I think it's time to move on. Do we really want this to be the focus of the season?

Merge all anti-reporter threads and let the mega thread die a slow death. It's taken up enough of our time.

Wear your TFC gear and if someone calls you a hooligan tell them not to believe everything they read, and that the Easter bunny isn't real either.

tfc007
04-09-2009, 09:35 AM
Paul,I have a neighbour who has been bugging me to take him to TFC game for two years now,So I invited him to this weekends game against FC Dallas,I invited him before the season began,now he comes and knocks on my door and said he is not interested in attending this weekend,I asked him why he changed his mind.He didnt really give me an answer,but I know he has a subscription of the Sun and Star delivered daily to his house.I am almost convinced he saw those articles and said fuck it.If he ever asks again in the future,I will tell him to head to the box office.

GBV
04-09-2009, 09:37 AM
NOBODY cares anymore about the Columbus incident .. Seriously its long over except for on the supporters boards..
We need to take a peek outside in reality .. All things are not TFC centric.

get over it ... Its OVER

agreed

Phil
04-09-2009, 09:40 AM
Are you guys serious?

You are actually going to think about not wearing the colours because of what other people may think about you?

I wore my TFC collard shirt to work today :D

I think Jack nailed it, at some peoples work it may be an issue.

Come game day or in my spare time, I will continue to wear my TFC/SG stuff, and I think most will too.

mlsintoronto
04-09-2009, 10:00 AM
Fortunately I think this is starting to blow over but you know that the media (whether they realize it or it just happens this way) will continue to compare things at BMO Field to the very worst of football's past.

We are correct to look at arrests in the NFL (for example) or fist fights in the 500-level of the Jays and ask "where's the balance?" but unfortunately we are in a sport that has some baggage. We all need to continue to do what we do, and work hard to stay above reproach...I know all of you sleep well knowing that what you are about.

The view is always better from the high road.

PS I don't mean to suggest that I'm rolling over on this. I will continue to do my best from my chair to keep the media well-informed. I'm still livid over the past week's press, in particular the damage done by one writer.

Wagner
04-09-2009, 10:03 AM
Fortunately I think this is starting to blow over but you know that the media (whether they realize it or it just happens this way) will continue to compare things at BMO Field to the very worst of football's past.

We are correct to look at arrests in the NFL (for example) or fist fights in the 500-level of the Jays and ask "where's the balance?" but unfortunately we are in a sport that has some baggage. We all need to continue to do what we do, and work hard to stay above reproach...I know all of you sleep well knowing that what you are about.

The view is always better from the high road.

PS I don't mean to suggest that I'm rolling over on this. I will continue to do my best from my chair to keep the media well-informed. I'm still livid over the past week's press, in particular the damage done by one writer.

go get'em mr. Paul.
it's nice to know that you at least acknowledge what we're going through.

Let's go kick some Texas Ass this saturday!!!

Gixmo
04-09-2009, 10:29 AM
I had no doubts that Paul was with us from Day One...

Goes back to my previous - Move on, bring the noise Saturday.. So that all the Star can write about is the tremors felt BMO all match long...

Arnie Knows
04-09-2009, 10:33 AM
I cannot believe that young people went to Columbus got drunk and mixed it up a bit ..

shocking , people from TO are insane ..
I have never seen young people anywhere else get drunk and stir it up..

Tazerlicious

Kevvv
04-09-2009, 10:39 AM
I cannot believe that young people went to Columbus got drunk and mixed it up a bit ..

shocking , people from TO are insane ..
I have never seen young people anywhere else get drunk and stir it up..

Tazerlicious

Well, exactly. If only the media picked up on this theme instead of attributing it to the sport.




Fortunately I think this is starting to blow over but you know that the media (whether they realize it or it just happens this way) will continue to compare things at BMO Field to the very worst of football's past.

We are correct to look at arrests in the NFL (for example) or fist fights in the 500-level of the Jays and ask "where's the balance?" but unfortunately we are in a sport that has some baggage. We all need to continue to do what we do, and work hard to stay above reproach...I know all of you sleep well knowing that what you are about.

The view is always better from the high road.

PS I don't mean to suggest that I'm rolling over on this. I will continue to do my best from my chair to keep the media well-informed. I'm still livid over the past week's press, in particular the damage done by one writer.

That's the thing, soccer has the word 'hooligan' associated with it (not that the reported acts qualify as such), but there's no comparable word for bad behaviour in the NFL, baseball, or hockey.

Blazer
04-09-2009, 10:45 AM
This is a battle not worth fighting. We are a very small minority of people who know the truth compared to a larger segment of society who will forever believe in what they hear from the various misread media outlets. In a sense, it’s the misinformed boobs in society who are the fools for drinking the Kool-Aid that is fed to them instead of investigating on their own what TFC fans are truly about. Do you believe everything that you hear in the media? Of course not, you take the information given with a grain of salt and investigate further if you feel so inclined to do so. And, I don’t care one way or the other how those who choose to live behind blindfolds in life perceive us. Similar to convincing a young child that Dimetapp is good for a common cold, we face the unenviable task of negotiating our legitimacy with the masses that have been lead to believe otherwise. So why bother?

Fact is, the onus is on all TFC fans - the same way the onus is on any group in society to maintain an image that is worth maintaining – to act accordingly and have other see us in a light worth seeing. Sure it was a few douche bags that have since splashed mud on our reputation, but you take the good with the bad here. All the more reason to rectify it by doing good and showing that we are not what the media has portrayed us to be, “hooligans”, but instead proud supporters of something this city should feel good about, and that’s “TFC”.

Roogsy
04-09-2009, 10:47 AM
I think there are two issues/complaints that are vaild....the "firm" references and the accusation of racism. Those two errors are very serious and flat out wrong.

The rest...get over it and grow up. You expect the FO to babysit the media and take the heat for your actions?

Don't want people from the national post writing articles about people pissing on fences...don't post pictures of it.

Don't want the sun to have a picture of a guy getting tased on the front page? Don't post youtube videos of it.

I saw a picture on flickr of someone throwing the broken railing at Columbus...how did I find it? It was posted here. How do you think the other stuff was found? How many threads do you think are used as material for articles? Positive AND negative.

I'm not saying we should cover up negative behaviour...I'm just saying people have to be smarter and realize that pimping yourself in the media and online as the biggest group, will get you a lot of attention. Positive and negative attention. People need to be adults and understand and handle this.

It seems to me like people like to bask in the positive attention...but a little bit of self inflicted negative attention and they cry to their mommy (MLSE) for help.

Like I said...I think the FO should use their influence to squash the "firm" and "racisim" stuff...that's wrong and unwarrented.

The other stuff...it's up to the groups to figure out. Dont' want the finger poitned at you when things arent' rosey?
Then don't be the biggest f-ing target.

Dumbest post in the thread. And I am not surprised.

alexintoronto
04-09-2009, 10:55 AM
Dumbest post in the thread. And I am not surprised.
Really? I thought it made a lot of sense. (And I'm still sober :drinking:)

Roogsy
04-09-2009, 10:56 AM
This is a battle not worth fighting. We are a very small minority of people who know the truth compared to a larger segment of society who will forever believe in what they hear from the various misread media outlets. In a sense, it’s the misinformed boobs in society who are the fools for drinking the Kool-Aid that is fed to them instead of investigating on their own what TFC fans are truly about. Do you believe everything that you hear in the media? Of course not, you take the information given with a grain of salt and investigate further if you feel so inclined to do so. And, I don’t care one way or the other how those who choose to live behind blindfolds in life perceive us. Similar to convincing a young child that Dimetapp is good for a common cold, we face the unenviable task of negotiating our legitimacy with the masses that have been lead to believe otherwise.

Fact is, the onus is on all TFC fans - the same way the onus is on any group in society to maintain an image that is worth maintaining – to act accordingly and have other see us in a light worth seeing. Sure it was a few douche bags that have since splashed mud on our reputation but you take the good with the bad here. All the more reason to rectify it by doing good and showing that we are not what the media has portrayed us to be, “hooligans”, but instead proud supporters of something this city should feel good about, and that’s “TFC”.

RPB has been doing exactly this since day one. And yet 2 years of good positive work at and away from the stadium is done away with with one stroke of the pen.

So tell me, what happens when some buffoon this weekend does something stupid again and we have nothing to do with it? Not only is all our past good work undone even more...or worse.

So all this talk from a bunch of you of "get over it" are fooling yourselves. This is far from over. If some douchebag this weekend throws even ONE beer and it's caught on camera, or one drunk streaker, Catheter and his ilk will feel vindicated and be all over it again. In what world can any of us be sure that there won't be at least ONE douchebag at the game?

And where is it even remotely rational that WE are held responsible for the actions of others? I am fairly certain that the "get over it" crowd are the ones that rarely, if ever, go on these away trips and therefore easily separate themselves from those of us who do so on a regular basis and feel very close to this issue. And in my opinion, it also shows a lack of comradery with the rest of us.

GBV
04-09-2009, 10:58 AM
Well, exactly. If only the media picked up on this theme instead of attributing it to the sport.





That's the thing, soccer has the word 'hooligan' associated with it (not that the reported acts qualify as such), but there's no comparable word for bad behaviour in the NFL, baseball, or hockey.

hockey might not have a "word" but there is certainly "baggage" as far as behaviour goes. in soccer it's fan baggage, in hockey player baggage. every violent/meatheaded incident in hockey fans the flames for those who think the game is out of control. especially those who might not be diehard fans.

Blazer
04-09-2009, 10:59 AM
I think there are two issues/complaints that are vaild....the "firm" references and the accusation of racism. Those two errors are very serious and flat out wrong.

The rest...get over it and grow up. You expect the FO to babysit the media and take the heat for your actions?

Don't want people from the national post writing articles about people pissing on fences...don't post pictures of it.

Don't want the sun to have a picture of a guy getting tased on the front page? Don't post youtube videos of it.

I saw a picture on flickr of someone throwing the broken railing at Columbus...how did I find it? It was posted here. How do you think the other stuff was found? How many threads do you think are used as material for articles? Positive AND negative.

I'm not saying we should cover up negative behaviour...I'm just saying people have to be smarter and realize that pimping yourself in the media and online as the biggest group, will get you a lot of attention. Positive and negative attention. People need to be adults and understand and handle this.

It seems to me like people like to bask in the positive attention...but a little bit of self inflicted negative attention and they cry to their mommy (MLSE) for help.

Like I said...I think the FO should use their influence to squash the "firm" and "racisim" stuff...that's wrong and unwarrented.

The other stuff...it's up to the groups to figure out. Dont' want the finger poitned at you when things arent' rosey?
Then don't be the biggest f-ing target.

Although your post is bang on, you’re likely preaching to the choir here. I doubt the retards that covet trouble or negative publicity frequent these boards, more so I highly doubt that they belong to or are affiliated with any of the supporters groups. So while I agree with your post and think that many others in here do too, I think your lecture is falling on deaf ears when the people who need it most are simply not on these boards taking note.

H Bomb
04-09-2009, 11:02 AM
Dumbest post in the thread. And I am not surprised.


Really? I thought it made a lot of sense. (And I'm still sober :drinking:)

I agree more with Roogs than Alex here. You say we attract attention...well what we do is serve charities, and that requires attention. We have done many charitable projects and will continue to do so. Other than that we're just the biggest group. So to tell us to accept the negative that comes with that isn't right IMO. And about pictures being posted, I simply hold the journalists to a higher standard than finding a pic and writing an ignorant article about it. People keep saying get over it....why? what has been done to resolve the issue? What has been done to restore our GOOD name? What has been done to stop further ignorant articles being written? I'd say let sleeping giants lay, but the giant woke up and is stomping all of us, whether we choose to ignore it or not

Kevvv
04-09-2009, 11:05 AM
hockey might not have a "word" but there is certainly "baggage" as far as behaviour goes. in soccer it's fan baggage, in hockey player baggage. every violent/meatheaded incident in hockey fans the flames for those who think the game is out of control. especially those who might not be diehard fans.


Good point; hockey has a few words for player behaviour - thug, brawl, goon.

alexintoronto
04-09-2009, 11:05 AM
I just personally think olegunner made some good points - but I'm not getting any further into this. :)

Roogsy
04-09-2009, 11:08 AM
Although your post is bang on, you’re likely preaching to the choir here. I doubt the retards that covet trouble or negative publicity frequent these boards, more so I highly doubt that they belong to or are affiliated with any of the supporters groups. So while I agree with your post and think that many others in here do too, I think your lecture is falling on deaf ears when the people who need it most are simply not on these boards taking note.


Bang on?

What is it exactly that we did that can be described as "self-inflicted negative attention"?

I am tired of posters on here claiming we are doing this to ourselves. I want to hear EXACTLY what it is we are doing that merits this attention. That's it! I am calling people out and demanding they backup the crap they are putting up on this board.

We can't win with you people. If we clamp down and censor the board, we get called fascists and restrictive.

If we open the board and let people discuss the team and events in an open manner, we are slitting our own throats.

Tell you what. How about we shut the board down altogether???

Because of course, how stupid it is for us to demand the media be ACCURATE! That's just crazy talk.

Fuck me.

Blazer
04-09-2009, 11:10 AM
RPB has been doing exactly this since day one. And yet 2 years of good positive work at and away from the stadium is done away with with one stroke of the pen.

So tell me, what happens when some buffoon this weekend does something stupid again and we have nothing to do with it? Not only is all our past good work undone even more...or worse.

So all this talk from a bunch of you of "get over it" are fooling yourselves. This is far from over. If some douchebag this weekend throws even ONE beer and it's caught on camera, or one drunk streaker, Catheter and his ilk will feel vindicated and be all over it again. In what world can any of us be sure that there won't be at least ONE douchebag at the game?

And where is it even remotely rational that WE are held responsible for the actions of others? I am fairly certain that the "get over it" crowd are the ones that rarely, if ever, go on these away trips and therefore easily separate themselves from those of us who do so on a regular basis and feel very close to this issue. And in my opinion, it also shows a lack of comradery with the rest of us.

Don’t be so quick to Chicken Little every minor shit show that happens at BMO. We have people murdering people regularly in this city, kids addicted to crack and whatever else they can get their grubby paws on, a society so hung up on image and material wealth and we want to save the world because TFC’s supports have a bad guy image? Please.

I’m not suggesting that adequate reprimand for those in direct violation is inappropriate, on the contrary, I’d like to see them banned. But for Christ sake, the sky isn’t falling either.

I’ve been to New England, Columbus (x3), and Chicago … my “get over it” attitude has nothing to do with how often I take to the road but I’ll tell you what does. My apathy for those who want to associate “hooliganism” with TFC supporters because they just don’t know any better. Professionals say that humans (groups included) are offended only when they have been made to feel like less of a group. So a few idiots drink too much and break the law, blame is placed on any number of supporter groups, and suddenly we’re supposed to lose our collective minds and begin the bounty hunt? Silly.

Roogsy
04-09-2009, 11:13 AM
Don’t be so quick to Chicken Little every minor shit show that happens at BMO.

What rock have you been under?

It's the "minor shit" itself that has been overblown to begin with! That's like asking someone not to worry about running out of gas when the dial is on "E" and the sign on the highway says "Next Service Station 100 miles". :noidea:

Blazer
04-09-2009, 11:13 AM
Bang on?

What is it exactly that we did that can be described as "self-inflicted negative attention"?

I am tired of posters on here claiming we are doing this to ourselves. I want to hear EXACTLY what it is we are doing that merits this attention. That's it! I am calling people out and demanding they backup the crap they are putting up on this board.

We can't win with you people. If we clamp down and censor the board, we get called fascists and restrictive.

If we open the board and let people discuss the team and events in an open manner, we are slitting our own throats.

Tell you what. How about we shut the board down altogether???

Because of course, how stupid it is for us to demand the media be ACCURATE! That's just crazy talk.

Fuck me.

Roogsy you’re right. His post wasn’t “bang-on” as I suggested. But I think the idea or where he wanted to go with it is. The suggestion that you (we) need to live with the idea that we are going to get credit the same way we’re going to get flack. I’m not disagreeing with you, I just don’t think we should be calling in the army quite yet.

Blazer
04-09-2009, 11:16 AM
What rock have you been under?

It's the "minor shit" itself that has been overblown to begin with! That's like asking someone not to worry about running out of gas when the dial is on "E" and the sign on the highway says "Next Service Station 100 miles". :noidea:

And if I posted that I’d be banned or warned for the umpteenth time. Hermits are nice people too Roogsy, be careful with your label chucking spears. ;)

Roogsy
04-09-2009, 11:17 AM
I don't give a shit about the credit. That is not why we do the things we do.

But I don't want my good name dragged in the mud...and I like many others are facing people's sideways looks at our place of employment and in daily lives. Maybe YOU aren't....but dammit if I sit here and take this shit because that's the "way things are".

I dunno when you think people SHOULD take action...but I have never been one to sit by and let injustices happen without at least verbalizing my protest. We have ways of properly reflecting our unhappiness and those of us that feel strongly about this choose to do so. If you are ok with people casting dispersions on you and doing nothing...good for you. The rest of us are not ok sitting on our asses. Because we know that when you do, it only emboldens the liars to continue lying knowing there are no repercussions.

Roogsy
04-09-2009, 11:18 AM
And if I posted that I’d be banned or warned for the umpteenth time. Hermits are nice people too Roogsy, be careful with your label chucking spears. ;)


Please...talk about the pot calling the kettle black. Who is playing the victim now? :rolleyes:

Roogsy
04-09-2009, 11:19 AM
So let's hear it.

I asked a question.

What is it exactly that we as RPB did that can be described as "self-inflicted negative attention"?

I seriously want to know. Because if this isn't answered...I am calling bullshit.

sully
04-09-2009, 12:16 PM
^^^

Is this an open question for for someone in particular...

anyway, I think it's important that we keep on top of this...don't let it go...I want an apology from the Star to each and every Toronto FC fan for damage to our reputation.

The Press Council have passed on my letter to the Public Editor of the Star, Kathy English, (kenglish@thestar.ca). They expect she will provide a response to me.

Hitcho
04-09-2009, 12:25 PM
I agree with the suggestions that it is time to move on, it definitely is.

BUT - if the press continue this shit at every chance they get going forward then we should still push for accurate reporting and not the scare mongering crap that we have seen lately. To ask for non-slanderous, roughly accurate and overall fair reporting when people's reputations are at stake is not an unreasonable demand.

As for olegunnar's point about "who's a bigger target" - what has that got to do with anything??!! Since when has it been ok to take the actions of an individual or massive minority and pin them on a recognisable majority?! I understand that the press might do it but surely you cannot be defending it?

Anyway, onwars and upwards from here. We've made our feelings known, let;s hope the press corp now do the responsible thing going forward and all this can be forgotten.

Lucky Strike
04-09-2009, 12:30 PM
I guess I can consider myself lucky that I haven't experienced the same ostracism, if you want to call it that, from colleagues and people on the street for being a TFC supporter - at least not yet. However, it saddens me that so many people have felt the need to stop wearing TFC-related clothing, or pins, etc. or have stopped talking about TFC or RPB around the watercooler at work because of disapproval from bosses, etc. for being associated with them.

This just goes to show how willing people are to believe whatever is written in the newspapers, and how much influence hacks like Cathal Kelly can have, and how their lack of journalistic integrity has gotten us into this mess.

It will be a sad day if I feel I need to stop wearing my TFC jersey or scarf because I might get looks of suspicion or disapproval from people on the subway, that doing so might somehow hinder my career path. If someone makes a comment to me about it, I'll look at it as an opportunity to set the record straight - and I think that's what we all need to do to a degree. I think we need to think of these situations as opportunities to educate people that what happened in Columbus or at BMO is NOT hooliganism, because let's face it, most people who are not soccer fans won't know the difference and will latch on to it because the media says so.

Remember, crisis = opportunity.

Cheer up, all is not lost, I still wear my TFC scarf everywhere I go and no complaints/accusations.

Darlofletch
04-09-2009, 12:39 PM
So let's hear it.

I asked a question.

What is it exactly that we as RPB did that can be described as "self-inflicted negative attention"?

I seriously want to know. Because if this isn't answered...I am calling bullshit.

Depends how you define "we as RPB"

If you mean official RPB business, then nothing.

If you mean people, RPB members or just regular non SG affiliated supporters or fans, posting stuff on the forums, which is obviously out of your control, then it's a different matter. The youtube taser video was posted here, some people were making posts quite aggressively in favour of the people fighting in Columbus, or openly wishing that it had gone further and we were more like an organised group of hooligans.

If you spread it wider to include people who may not have anything at all to do with RPB but to the casual eye, seem like they do, then banners in the South end saying "the Firm" or "ultras" might lead people to investigate further and discover some of the negative associations with those terms, and lazily apply it to all TFC supporters.

Is any of that really fair? not at all, but there they are, the tiny bits of evidence that are self inflicted negative attention,that can be used to justify the wildly overblown generalisations of Kelly, Wheeler et al.

S_D
04-09-2009, 12:49 PM
Print off a copy of the correction from the Star (online version) and put it in your pocket to pull out when you get questions from you co-workers, friends and next door neighbours.

People may just question the validity of the entire article.

Darlofletch
04-09-2009, 12:55 PM
[quote=Darlofletch;462309]some people were making posts quite aggressively in favour of the people fighting in Columbus, or openly wishing that it had gone further and we were more like an organised group of hooligans.

Just noticed on a different thread that the main person i was thinking of with that comment now shows as banned. Well done.

Whoop
04-09-2009, 01:17 PM
One question, what supposed racist comment/action are we supposed to have made/done?

And Paul, please enroll Tom Anselmi in a PR course.

That is all.

sully
04-09-2009, 01:19 PM
Print off a copy of the correction from the Star (online version) and put it in your pocket to pull out when you get questions from you co-workers, friends and next door neighbours.

People may just question the validity of the entire article.

you mean the one that implies that the league has a racism problem?

ilikemusic
04-09-2009, 01:19 PM
I know this wont be a popular opinion, and as I dont affliliate myself with any supporters groups maybe my opinion isnt really relevant. Regardless, I will speak it.

That letter and it's sanctimonious grandstanding is complete garbage.

Oh noez! Teh media is making things up, blowing things out of proportion and making generalizations! How did it come to this?!?! :rolleyes:

:violin:

Roogsy
04-09-2009, 01:23 PM
Oh noez! Teh media is making things up, blowing things out of proportion and making generalizations! How did it come to this?!?! :rolleyes:


So you're ok that they did it?

ilikemusic
04-09-2009, 01:29 PM
So you're ok that they did it?

I dont care because my identity is not so intrinsically connected to being a Toronto supporter that I get offended when the media tries to sell papers with innaccurate stories.

Its not like Toronto FC supporters groups are the first people to be treated unfairly by the media.

They just might be the most trivial though.

Youre a big up in the RPB. Who you are as a person is connected to the image of the group, so I understand why you would be upset. Your name is on the line, so to speak.

I myself, as a generic Toronto FC fan (probably what would be called a 'casual' by supporters standards) do not care though. Its a stupid article in a newspaper that will be forgotten faster than it took the author to fabricate.

Roogsy
04-09-2009, 01:29 PM
Depends how you define "we as RPB"

If you mean official RPB business, then nothing.

If you mean people, RPB members or just regular non SG affiliated supporters or fans, posting stuff on the forums, which is obviously out of your control, then it's a different matter. The youtube taser video was posted here, some people were making posts quite aggressively in favour of the people fighting in Columbus, or openly wishing that it had gone further and we were more like an organised group of hooligans.

If you spread it wider to include people who may not have anything at all to do with RPB but to the casual eye, seem like they do, then banners in the South end saying "the Firm" or "ultras" might lead people to investigate further and discover some of the negative associations with those terms, and lazily apply it to all TFC supporters.

Is any of that really fair? not at all, but there they are, the tiny bits of evidence that are self inflicted negative attention,that can be used to justify the wildly overblown generalisations of Kelly, Wheeler et al.

This at least I can understand. Which is why irresponsible journalists should feel our wrath so that they don't make the same "lazy" mistakes again.

Your post is reasonable. And I can certainly understand it. However, good research and a genuine effort to get to the truth would have avoided much anger and quite frankly, slander, on the part of journalists.

If you, as a regular person, make these assumptions. I don't care. But when a National newspaper does it...and splashes our name across the country in a negative manner because they were too "lazy" to investigate the truth? Yeah, that will get me up in arms.

That people make mistakes in perception is not what bothers me. That happens all the time. It's when people have a venue in which to broadcast and disseminate such information where their responsibility to find the truth is much, much more important. And when they fail...there needs to be accountability.

That's all. Mistakes happen. But neither of these two have responsibly retracted their statements, on the contrary, Wheeler decided he was going to capitalize on his newfound "fame" and repeat his delusions in print, radio and television, only exascerbating the problem further and deepening his guilt in this matter.

Roogsy
04-09-2009, 01:31 PM
I dont care because my identity is not so intrinsically connected to being a Toronto supporter that I get offended when the media tries to sell papers with innaccurate stories.

Its not like Toronto FC supporters groups are the first people to be treated unfairly by the media.

They just might be the most trivial though.

Youre a big up in the RPB. Who you are as a person is connected to the image of the group, so I understand why you would be upset.

I myself do not care though. Its a stupid article in a newspaper that will be forgotten faster than it took the author to fabricate.

It's obvious though that you are not as "public" with your support of TFC as others. Carts for example whose support of TFC has come into conflict with his job! That doesn't make you raise an eyebrow and see how others are affected much more than you are?

If you are not so affected by these events, don't pass your nonchalance to others who are and make us feel like we are overblowing this when in fact, I don't think we made big enough noise about it.

ilikemusic
04-09-2009, 01:43 PM
It's obvious though that you are not as "public" with your support of TFC as others. Carts for example whose support of TFC has come into conflict with his job! That doesn't make you raise an eyebrow and see how others are affected much more than you are?

If you are not so affected by these events, don't pass your nonchalance to others who are and make us feel like we are overblowing this when in fact, I don't think we made big enough noise about it.

Like I said. I understand the protests from you and from other people who are more emotionally and publically invested in the team and the supporters groups. I was only giving my take though. As I prefaced the whole thing, im not an 'affiliated supporter', so by neccesity this issue wont affect me as much as most people on here.

Though stuff like this is basically the exact reason why I choose not to be affiliated with a supporters group. 1. Theyre an easy target and 2. I cant control what other people in the group do or how they present themselves.

Once people assemble themselves under a banner/name/logo as a collective entity they are fundamentally opening themselves up to generalizations and being defined by the actions of other people.

Though that attitude is entirely counter-intuitve to the principle of a supporters group (but maybe it isnt, im not in an SG but I know almost all the songs and sing/chant whenever I am at BMO), so again, I must reiterate that im simply speaking of my own personal beliefs.

Im not trying to justify the false accusations made in any of the articles. Im just saying that so long as there is a name, a logo, a group to place the blame on, that is where its going to go. If there were 'blue patch boys' at Jays games you can bet they would get blamed for the rowdiness there too.

S_D
04-09-2009, 01:49 PM
you mean the one that implies that the league has a racism problem?

If I remember correctly the correction was revised a couple of times online. (I could be wrong on that. Don't have time to check as I am just getting ready to walk out the door)

s2cazz
04-09-2009, 01:56 PM
^^^

Is this an open question for for someone in particular...

anyway, I think it's important that we keep on top of this...don't let it go...I want an apology from the Star to each and every Toronto FC fan for damage to our reputation.

The Press Council have passed on my letter to the Public Editor of the Star, Kathy English, (kenglish@thestar.ca). They expect she will provide a response to me.
I'm intersted in what course this avenue takes...please keep us posted if you don't mind

Darlofletch
04-09-2009, 01:56 PM
This at least I can understand. Which is why irresponsible journalists should feel our wrath so that they don't make the same "lazy" mistakes again.

Your post is reasonable. And I can certainly understand it. However, good research and a genuine effort to get to the truth would have avoided much anger and quite frankly, slander, on the part of journalists.

If you, as a regular person, make these assumptions. I don't care. But when a National newspaper does it...and splashes our name across the country in a negative manner because they were too "lazy" to investigate the truth? Yeah, that will get me up in arms.

That people make mistakes in perception is not what bothers me. That happens all the time. It's when people have a venue in which to broadcast and disseminate such information where their responsibility to find the truth is much, much more important. And when they fail...there needs to be accountability.

That's all. Mistakes happen. But neither of these two have responsibly retracted their statements, on the contrary, Wheeler decided he was going to capitalize on his newfound "fame" and repeat his delusions in print, radio and television, only exascerbating the problem further and deepening his guilt in this matter.

To be clear, I'm not making those assumptions, I don't agree with the things I brought up, and don't think these things, or one or two people throwing beer cups should be used as justification by hacks to slander all TFC supporters. I'm not trying to defend them, and fully agree with everything you replied. Was just trying to answer your original question.

bgnewf
04-09-2009, 02:34 PM
Hi All:

I did speak to Paul Bierne about my letter yesterday afternoon and he gave me some assurances that they are definitely working on responding to the misconceptions out there in the media.

He also wanted to ensure that he would prefer that any sort of "open letter" type address to the club going forward should be directed to him specifically as he is designated within the club to be our direct point of contact.

We had a good chat and I did take the opportunity to address with him the fact that there are significant numbers of scalper controlled seats within the south end that are more often than not used by "tourists" who we all know are the source of trouble from the south end more often than not. He also told me that this issue is also being addressed.

Jack
04-09-2009, 02:44 PM
Hi All:

I did speak to Paul Bierne about my letter yesterday afternoon and he gave me some assurances that they are definitely working on responding to the misconceptions out there in the media.

He also wanted to ensure that he would prefer that any sort of "open letter" type address to the club going forward should be directed to him specifically as he is designated within the club to be our direct point of contact.

We had a good chat and I did take the opportunity to address with him the fact that there are significant numbers of scalper controlled seats within the south end that are more often than not used by "tourists" who we all know are the source of trouble from the south end more often than not. He also told me that this issue is also being addressed.
Addressed how?

Anyway, thanks for the news, Tim. I'd rather not go on another one of my scalper rants here. :p

peterboroughtfcfan
04-09-2009, 03:17 PM
Addressed how?

Anyway, thanks for the news, Tim. I'd rather not go on another one of my scalper rants here. :p

I know for a fact that s. 112 row 13 seats 10 and 11 are being scalped by a guy named Andre Robinson. Lynch him accordingly!

mlsintoronto
04-09-2009, 03:18 PM
on scalpers...actually I said I agree its a problem. I have an idea of how we might work at addressing it (not scalpers in general, but the "tourists". It will take time and no, I wont discuss it here.

sully
04-09-2009, 03:30 PM
on scalpers...actually I said I agree its a problem. I have an idea of how we might work at addressing it (not scalpers in general, but the "tourists". It will take time and no, I wont discuss it here.

I think you said about 2 years ago that your relationship with the supporters groups is like a marriage..it has its ups and downs but in the end..well you know..commitment and all that stuff.. so keep up the good work, it is appreciated...

Super
04-09-2009, 03:35 PM
I wish the cops would just bust the damn scalpers and pool the tickets for the supporters groups. That would take care of the problem. Won't happen, but it's a nice thought just the same.

Naturegirl
04-09-2009, 04:16 PM
What i find interesting about this whole thing is the columbus papers didn't mention anything at all except the particulars of the game. Why is it that the toronto media is so fast to crucify, falsely, the sports fans in this town and seriously damage there own teams reputations? not just the fans and supporters but they hurt the clubs as well with there hate and fear mongering.

sully
04-09-2009, 04:18 PM
I'm intersted in what course this avenue takes...please keep us posted if you don't mind

Here you are, copied and pasted:

Public Editor, The Toronto Star <publiced@thestar.ca>
dateThu, Apr 9, 2009 at 4:52 PM
subjectFW: Keeping the lid on soccer fanatics, by Cathal Kelly.
mailed-bythestar.ca
hide details 4:52 PM (20 minutes ago) Reply

Dear Mr. O'Sullivan:
Thank you for taking time to express your views. I am looking into this matter and will respond to your concerns after I have opportunity to speak with Mr. Kelly and his editors. Given the varying schedules of all involved, I expect I will not complete this until early to middle of next week. Please do not hesitate to call me on Monday of you wish to discuss further.
Best Regards,
Kathy English
Kathy English
Public Editor/The Toronto Star/416 869-4950
1 Yonge St./Toronto, ON/M5E1E6

Roogsy
04-09-2009, 04:23 PM
We had a good chat and I did take the opportunity to address with him the fact that there are significant numbers of scalper controlled seats within the south end that are more often than not used by "tourists" who we all know are the source of trouble from the south end more often than not. He also told me that this issue is also being addressed.


OMG....QFFT!!! :hulk:

Roogsy
04-09-2009, 04:24 PM
I think you said about 2 years ago that your relationship with the supporters groups is like a marriage..it has its ups and downs but in the end..well you know..commitment and all that stuff.. so keep up the good work, it is appreciated...

When does the sex happen? :p

Red Rat
04-09-2009, 04:33 PM
Newspaper are a institution and by that their main objective is to profit, they do not have the obligation to inform us in any way. The Sun is built from the peoples suffering, rape, greed, murder and some more.
Any educated person knows this, as for the Star they also found something to ride on.

My point is this, ignorance wants to be fed contradiction the best thing to do is to ignore them. TFC became so popular so fast that this institutions need feed on the negativity and not on the realistic aspect of the game and their fans, this doesn't sell, it's boring.


A for Columbus I called for all groups to Boycott the City forever..

sully
04-09-2009, 04:33 PM
When does the sex happen? :p

LOL...I thought somebody would say that.. but hey it's been 3 years already so that's probably questionable anyway..;)

ensco
04-09-2009, 04:37 PM
I truly value the fact that the team/Paul communicates with the fans/supporters in this forum and others. I really do. So the following comment is not meant to show ingratitude....but....

I think we are, at least a little bit, paying the price on this of corporate ownership, and the fact that the owner also owns the Leafs and Raptors. MLSE is involved with the Toronto papers on many levels, has been for a long time, and it's just not clear to me that it's worth it for MLSE to jump ugly with the Star about this.

TFC is worth $50 million, but MLSE as a whole has been valued at up to $1.5 billion. TFC represents less than 5% of the value of MLSE. I think MLSE save their bullets to manage stories for the far more valuable franchises. Or put another way, perhaps Paul's "freedom of motion" here may be quite limited.

I obviously cannot prove this, but it would be sound business for MLSE to operate this way.

Roogsy
04-09-2009, 04:38 PM
I think they save their bullets to manage stories for the far more valuable franchises.

Can't say I disagree.

CretanBull
04-09-2009, 04:48 PM
Fortunately I think this is starting to blow over but you know that the media (whether they realize it or it just happens this way) will continue to compare things at BMO Field to the very worst of football's past.

We are correct to look at arrests in the NFL (for example) or fist fights in the 500-level of the Jays and ask "where's the balance?" but unfortunately we are in a sport that has some baggage. We all need to continue to do what we do, and work hard to stay above reproach...I know all of you sleep well knowing that what you are about.

The view is always better from the high road.

PS I don't mean to suggest that I'm rolling over on this. I will continue to do my best from my chair to keep the media well-informed. I'm still livid over the past week's press, in particular the damage done by one writer.


I appreciate that point of view, and at some level we're just going to have to accept that as reality for now and hopefully work towards changing things, probably slowly, over time. It is annoying though, being blamed or held accountable for something that happened in England 25-30 years ago...

mlsintoronto
04-09-2009, 06:11 PM
I appreciate that point of view, and at some level we're just going to have to accept that as reality for now and hopefully work towards changing things, probably slowly, over time. It is annoying though, being blamed or held accountable for something that happened in England 25-30 years ago...

I don't think we should accept it. Just be reminded that we're playing under a different set of standards.

s2cazz
04-10-2009, 10:58 PM
Here you are, copied and pasted:

Public Editor, The Toronto Star <publiced@thestar.ca>
dateThu, Apr 9, 2009 at 4:52 PM
subjectFW: Keeping the lid on soccer fanatics, by Cathal Kelly.
mailed-bythestar.ca
hide details 4:52 PM (20 minutes ago) Reply

Dear Mr. O'Sullivan:
Thank you for taking time to express your views. I am looking into this matter and will respond to your concerns after I have opportunity to speak with Mr. Kelly and his editors. Given the varying schedules of all involved, I expect I will not complete this until early to middle of next week. Please do not hesitate to call me on Monday of you wish to discuss further.
Best Regards,
Kathy English
Kathy English
Public Editor/The Toronto Star/416 869-4950
1 Yonge St./Toronto, ON/M5E1E6
Let us/me (<-if this trhead ends up closed) know what happens with this...

koryo
04-11-2009, 06:51 AM
Why is it that the toronto media is so fast to crucify, falsely, the sports fans in this town and seriously damage there own teams reputations? not just the fans and supporters but they hurt the clubs as well with there hate and fear mongering.

Gobi and I were talking about this subject last night. Stories like these generally aren't written in a vacuum are they? I mean the writers don't just have carte blanche to come up some of the rubbish we see in the press do they? There's a better than even's chance that an assignment editor is saying to a writer something along the lines of "your angle in this story is organized support and how it is fostering hooliganism in this fair city of ours". Either that or the writer is pitching the angle to the editors, who in-turn rubber stamp it because they know it will cause a sensation.

As much as were are accountable to ourselves and to the group code of conduct (but not every individual in the ground, or every individual who goes on a road trip, as the press would like to hold us), the accountability for certain recent "news" stories - and I use that term very lightly - surely doesn't end with the writer.

If the media outlets in question had a shred of ethical decency they would take steps to correct what they've done, and that would mean someone on the editorial board getting taken down a peg or two. But that won't happen for the same reason these stories came about in the first place: arrogance. It was very arrogant for the writers/editors of this story to let slip through what they did. Beyond a shadow of a doubt, the original Wheeler and Kelly pieces are slanderous. Had they not based their stories on incorrect assumptions, there'd be no problem. Now that it has happened, that same arrogance will prevent any sort of full apology. Perhaps there has been a line or two of errata buried somewhere in each paper this week but that doesn't balance out what they did in the first place.

On the flipside, we're going to have to grow some thicker skin because this won't be the last time it happens. The press has latched on like a rabid animal and, like said animal, lacks the soundness of mind or will to let go, step back and see what has happened for what it really is:

People are using this game as an excuse to get drunk and act like complete assholes - which likely means they're complete assholes 24/7 but usually don't have the venue to express it. It's not anything organized, it's the frat house mentality getting air play.

I don't know what aggravates me more: the gross mis-representation of the facts in the media or the useless, shit-for-brains twats who are giving us all a bad name by abusing this game, our ground, and all the SSG groups.

For those of you whose personal/professional lives are being affected by this recent coverage consider this: the people who will make snide comments to you, or behind your back, are really just sheep who can't think for themselves. If they didn't have our recently minted hooligan status to use then it would surely be something else. The best thing to do is ignore them.

300 years ago they would have been the sort to make up the village mob in a witch hunt. I suppose the media, then, would be the vengeful priest.

The blind leading the blind.

If Wheeler or Kelly wants to see real hooliganism, then I'd invite them to walk around Leeds wearing a Manchester United jersey. That would broaden their world view a bit.

sidvan
04-11-2009, 09:24 AM
The Leafs are not making their traditional end of year failed run to make the playoffs and the Raptors are non starters in terms of media attention. The scribes have nothing to write about. Enter CK (insert euphimism).

There is a game today...GO REDS

jloome
04-11-2009, 12:49 PM
Tempest, teapot. The public may eye the RPBs suspiciously now because of some bad reporting, but when time passes and nothing too serious has happened they'll come around. These things have a way of working themselves out.

CretanBull
04-11-2009, 01:11 PM
We're undergoing a series of changes at my work which has brought all the head-honcho's to work out of our location for the next month or so. On Thursday I cut my left hand pretty badly, my knife slipped and I stabbed myself in the base of the palm of my hand and it cut down towards my wrist (for a couple of days I was bandaged up like a depressed emo kid!). Anyway, a few hours after I cut it one of the head honchos who I've never spoken to in my life asked me if I was left or right handed. When I told him that I was right handed he said "Good, it won't hurt when you're out punching...is it Dallas or Houston? fans this weekend".

So this guy, who I don't even think knows my name, some how knows that I'm a TFC fan and his first association was with fighting.