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View Full Version : kevins hand ball ? was it the right call?



nascarguy
03-30-2009, 04:19 PM
i think the ref made a bad call on that. do what you guys think ?

kitchener-TFC
03-30-2009, 04:20 PM
Obviously accidental, but wtf was Harmse's arm doing up?

mclaren
03-30-2009, 04:22 PM
i think the ref made a bad call on that. do what you guys think ?

It could've gone either way quite honestly. One ref could have given it and the other may have said "ball to arm". Both could have an argument.

nascarguy
03-30-2009, 04:22 PM
his arm was down and he was turning away from the ball

bhoybobby
03-30-2009, 04:23 PM
Poor call, mitigated by the fact his arm was up, I've seen worse given. An experienced ref would wave play on. I guess if u block a shot/pass/cross & you off ure feet with yer arm up yer askin for trouble wiff mls refs

ensco
03-30-2009, 04:24 PM
It was marginal, but I'm fine with the call, as long as they're consistent.

My fear is we'll see the same play with TFC on attack, and it won't be given. There was a lot of that against us last year.

MTomas
03-30-2009, 04:24 PM
AT BMO - wouldn't have been called
AT Columbus it was called

Home Field Call, that's the way i look at it

trane
03-30-2009, 04:26 PM
^ You are giving the MLS refs too much credit, they are shite everywere.


Having said that, it was not the worst call I have seen.

nascarguy
03-30-2009, 04:29 PM
all i seen was it hit the back of his arm as he was moving his arm up. but columbus was trying to get more hand balls but it did not work.

GingerNinja
03-30-2009, 04:31 PM
Obviously accidental, but wtf was Harmse's arm doing up?

His arm was up cause there was a open man running into the box and he was pointing him out and asking who the fuck was going to cover him.

I say its a bad call, it was ball to hand while he was trying very hard to get out of the way.

stretchthetruth
03-30-2009, 04:33 PM
i thought it was pretty harsh given that it hit the back of his upper arm pretty close to his body, and it was a hard shot... i'll agree that consistency is definitely key, but i'm not holding my breath...

CretanBull
03-30-2009, 04:33 PM
His elbow left his side as he turned which could reasonably allow a ref to think that he was trying to block the ball from going through. It was a questionable call, but we've seen many, many, many worse.

Suds
03-30-2009, 04:59 PM
His elbow left his side as he turned which could reasonably allow a ref to think that he was trying to block the ball from going through. It was a questionable call, but we've seen many, many, many worse.

I agree ... marginal call, but with the arm going up I can see how the ref made the call ... the ref didn't hesitate for a second making the call so he obviously saw it as a raised arm .. and there has been many many worse calls made by refs in the league

MartinUtd
03-30-2009, 04:59 PM
I wish I could blame this one on the ref, but I think this tells it all

http://tfcsupporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/harmse1.JPG

http://tfcsupporter.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/harmse2.JPG

Also a good excuse to plug my blog (http://tfcsupporter.com/2009/the-harmse-hand-ball/) :)

trane
03-30-2009, 05:00 PM
His arm was up cause there was a open man running into the box and he was pointing him out and asking who the fuck was going to cover him.

I say its a bad call, it was ball to hand while he was trying very hard to get out of the way.

I have been there, and done that.

MUFC_Niagara
03-30-2009, 06:46 PM
At the time I said it was a terrible call. Having seen the replay, he had his arms off his side and gave the ref every reason to call the penalty.

Shakes McQueen
03-30-2009, 06:54 PM
It was a bad call. He was pointing out a player to the defense, and the ball hit him in the upper arm when he turned away. No reasonable ref in a top flight league would let something that chintzy decide a game.

- Scott

nascarguy
03-30-2009, 07:11 PM
we do not have reasonable ref in the mls. It's a good thing that i still have that ref banner I made last year.

james
03-30-2009, 07:21 PM
When i saw the replay last night i think it was the right call. He should of not stuck his arm up like that. It was an easy call, players cant put there arms in the air like that inside the box, they are just asking to get cought with a hand ball, its just dangerous. Doenst matter if he was pointing to a player or not.

james
03-30-2009, 07:23 PM
It was a bad call. He was pointing out a player to the defense, and the ball hit him in the upper arm when he turned away. No reasonable ref in a top flight league would let something that chintzy decide a game.

- Scott

man ive seen EPL players get called for hand ball for alot worse then that. Ive seen guys get hand balls when players didnt even touch the ball with there hand. So i would not say any ref in top flight league would ever call somethin like that.

Shakes McQueen
03-30-2009, 07:38 PM
man ive seen EPL players get called for hand ball for alot worse then that. Ive seen guys get hand balls when players didnt even touch the ball with there hand. So i would not say any ref in top flight league would ever call somethin like that.

I've seen EPL players get called for hand balls that didn't even touch their arms. I didn't mean in a game situation, as obviously you rarely get a perfect view of the event, and sometimes it's just a 50/50 call.

I meant if you were to sit an EPL referee down, and show them Harmse's penalty call on video, there is no way they would call a penalty in that situation.

With MLS referees, there is no consistency in what they will or won't call in any given game.

- Scott

james
03-30-2009, 07:44 PM
I've seen EPL players get called for hand balls that didn't even touch their arms. I didn't mean in a game situation, as obviously you rarely get a perfect view of the event, and sometimes it's just a 50/50 call.

I meant if you were to sit an EPL referee down, and show them Harmse's penalty call on video, there is no way they would call a penalty in that situation.

With MLS referees, there is no consistency in what they will or won't call in any given game.

- Scott

Just as i said before tho, if a player has his arms like that inside the box its just dangerous. From a refs view without any instent replay all they see is a guy throwing his arms in the air and it gives the ref a good reason to think he was doing that on purpose to block the shot. I still say he called it right. keep those hands down not up at your head level.

Shakes McQueen
03-30-2009, 07:48 PM
Just as i said before tho, if a player has his arms like that inside the box its just dangerous. From a refs view without any instent replay all they see is a guy throwing his arms in the air and it gives the ref a good reason to think he was doing that on purpose to block the shot. I still say he called it right. keep those hands down not up at your head level.

If you watch the video on replay though, in the few seconds before the ball hit's his arm, you can clearly see him using that raised arm to point out a player to the defense, and you can clearly see him shouting about it too.

He then turns to see the shot coming, and quickly tries to turn his back to it, at which point the ball hits him the back of his upper arm.

He wasn't just waving his arms around in a conscious attempt to block anything. He didn't have time to react one way or another - it was accidental.

- Scott

bignickel
03-30-2009, 07:55 PM
Just as i said before tho, if a player has his arms like that inside the box its just dangerous. From a refs view without any instent replay all they see is a guy throwing his arms in the air and it gives the ref a good reason to think he was doing that on purpose to block the shot. I still say he called it right. keep those hands down not up at your head level.

i agree with you, he's got both arms up in the air, not to block the shot, but still very frivolous considering a shot is coming at you while in the 18.
the poor guy can't catch a break, but he doesn't do himself any favours.

JonO
03-30-2009, 08:14 PM
As I understand it, the rule is that you have to deliberately play the ball with your hand for it to be considered a handball. I don't think Harmse played the balled deliberately, so I think the call is wrong. However, I don't think it is a bad call because Harmse put himself in a position where the ref could certainly interpret it as intentional...

Dirk Diggler
03-30-2009, 08:16 PM
If you watch the video on replay though, in the few seconds before the ball hit's his arm, you can clearly see him using that raised arm to point out a player to the defense, and you can clearly see him shouting about it too.

He then turns to see the shot coming, and quickly tries to turn his back to it, at which point the ball hits him the back of his upper arm.

He wasn't just waving his arms around in a conscious attempt to block anything. He didn't have time to react one way or another - it was accidental.

- Scott

The point isn't why his arms were up. It doesn't matter what reasons he had ... you just can't have your arms up like that or refs will call penalties ... simple as that. He took a risk by pointing out an attacker to the defence and it didn't pay. End of story.

Shakes McQueen
03-30-2009, 08:30 PM
As I understand it, the rule is that you have to deliberately play the ball with your hand for it to be considered a handball. I don't think Harmse played the balled deliberately, so I think the call is wrong. However, I don't think it is a bad call because Harmse put himself in a position where the ref could certainly interpret it as intentional...

Exactly. Otherwise every time a team was in the box with the ball, they'd be more likely to just try and hit a guy in the arms with it to get the easy penalty, than to try and play the ball legitimately.

I don't necessarily blame the referee, since in that split second it's just a judgment call - but upon replay, Harmse definitely was not in the wrong.

- Scott

Ossington Mental Youth
03-30-2009, 08:35 PM
obviously ball to hand and should have been a free kick but im a bit biased and not a ref

Ossington Mental Youth
03-30-2009, 08:36 PM
having seen those pics, i think id wanna see it again before actually giving my opinion

Shakes McQueen
03-30-2009, 08:38 PM
having seen those pics, i think id wanna see it again before actually giving my opinion

You can probably see it in the "Game in Six Minutes" video.

- Scott

Blizzard
03-30-2009, 08:42 PM
Exactly. Otherwise every time a team was in the box with the ball, they'd be more likely to just try and hit a guy in the arms with it to get the easy penalty, than to try and play the ball legitimately.

I don't necessarily blame the referee, since in that split second it's just a judgment call - but upon replay, Harmse definitely was not in the wrong.

- Scott

I totally agree with that assessment. Not necessarily the correct call but one that you can't really fault the referee for in that it was a split second decision and one that had to be made. It was a weak call but it's no surprise it would be called ... especially in this league.

Bad luck as much as anything I'd say.

bignickel
03-30-2009, 08:43 PM
You can probably see it in the "Game in Six Minutes" video.

- Scott

they just showed it goltv, his arms were all over the place but he did make a strong effort in turning his body.

JonO
03-30-2009, 10:11 PM
obviously ball to hand and should have been a free kick but im a bit biased and not a ref
"ball to hand" is a bit of an oversimplification...


Handling the ball involves a deliberate act to make contact with the ball by a player’s hand or arm.

The referee must take into consideration the following
circumstances:

The movement of the hand towards the ball (not the
ball towards the hand).

The distance between the opponent and the handball
(unexpected ball).

Position of the hand does not necessarily mean
infringement.

Touching the ball with an object held in the hand
(clothing, shinguard, etc.) counts as an infringement.

Throwing an object (a boot, shinguard, etc.) to the ball
with the hand counts as an infringement.
Again, I'm not saying you can blame the ref on this one. 50/50 call at best, depending on what the ref saw.

Pachuco
03-30-2009, 10:36 PM
That was a tough call, could have gone either way. Has nothing to do with the quality of ref or what league we are in. The call was marginal. Many refs in other leagues would tell you that is a hand ball. Others would tell you otherwise.

TFC RealDeal RPB
03-30-2009, 11:01 PM
For me it's a 50/50 call but because it was for the home team and it was the home opener thats why i think he called it....

Inklink
03-31-2009, 12:21 AM
If I were a ref, I wouldn't have given it, but watching it realtime, I can see his reasoning.