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View Full Version : Future Outlook on MLS and USL!



Shway
03-25-2009, 02:09 PM
20 teams by 2012 for both MLS and USL, could there be any type of affliation?

Major League Soccer

1. Chicago Fire
2. Chivas USA
3. Colorado Rapids
4. Columbus Crew
5. D.C. United
6. F.C. Dallas
7. Houston Dynamo
8. Kansas City Wizards
9. Los Angeles Galaxy
10. New England Revolution
11. New York Red Bulls
12. A.C. Philadelphia
13. Portland F.C. (Timbers)
14. Real Salt Lake
15. San Jose Earthquakes
16. Seattle Sounders FC
17. Toronto FC
18. Vancouver City FC (Whitecaps)
19. Ottawa United S.C (probable)
20. St. Louis United S.C (probable)


United Soccer League

1. Atlanta Silverbacks
2. Austin Aztex
3. Carolina Railhawks
4. Charleston Battery
5. Cleveland City Stars
6. CP Baltimore (promotion to USL-1)
7. Detriot
8. Des Moines
9. New York City FC
10. Hamilton FC (probable)
11. Miami FC
12. Minnesoeta Thunder
13. Montreal Impact
14.Puerto Rico Islanders
15. Rochester Rhinos
16. Tampa Bay Rowdies
17. St. Louis Lions (probable)
18. San Antonio
19. Oklahoma City
20.Orlando Tuzos
21. Ottawa United FC (probable)
22. Victoria Highlanders (possible promotion for PDL)

Sab0tage
03-25-2009, 02:10 PM
Ottawa in both MLS and USL?

Shway
03-25-2009, 02:15 PM
i heard its if they dont get into MLS they will try USL, likewise i heard for St. Louis to

Azerban
03-25-2009, 02:18 PM
portland will stay the timbers
vancouver will stay the whitecaps
and if the names for ottawa and st louis are that poor it will be a tragedy

peter_tfc
03-25-2009, 02:20 PM
It's also possible that USL1 and USL2 will merge giving a much larger second division for the continent.

The lack of West Coast teams is a serious problem for the USL, but combining the two leagues would definitely save on travel costs, increase rivalries and thereby put people in the seats.

The timing of the World Cup could help with this. Usually there's a ton of expansion during and immediately after a World Cup year.

And on that note, perhaps it's finally time to get the Western CSL going and accomodate our existing Canadian teams in every way to get them to join up and stay in the CSL. Lynx, Fury and Chill belong in the CSL in my opinion. The CSL just has to raise their standards for stadiums and salaries.

ExiledRed
03-25-2009, 02:22 PM
Isn't there a conflict of interest?
MLS=Adidas while USL=Umbro?

maninb
03-25-2009, 02:27 PM
Ottawa won't get a MLS team....until WAY after Montreal.....also IMO they can't/won't support a soccer team long term...it's not a very good sport's town...

Sab0tage
03-25-2009, 02:28 PM
i heard its if they dont get into MLS they will try USL, likewise i heard for St. Louis to Yeah, but they won't be in both, therefore your total numbers of teams in both leagues is wrong.

Keyman
03-25-2009, 02:29 PM
Both leagues would have to have major balls to unite, or form any sort of two/three tier organization. I don't buy the argument that it "simply can't work" because relegation/promotion has never been attempted in North America to my knowledge. However, if USL teams don't have MLS-standard facilities, then the potential costs outweigh the potential benefits.

devioustrevor
03-25-2009, 02:30 PM
Apparently there is a group that wants to put a USL-1 team at a refurbished Swangard after Vancouver jumps to MLS.

Cashcleaner
03-25-2009, 02:31 PM
The only affiliation I could ever see hapening between MLS and USL, would be something akin to that between the NHL and AHL, or Major and Minor League Baseball. Maybe not a farm system in the sense that we are familar, but some osrt of partnership between first and second-tier clubs.

Shway
03-25-2009, 02:36 PM
Yeah, but they won't be in both, therefore your total numbers of teams in both leagues is wrong.

thats why there is 22 in the USL and 18 plus 2 possible in the MLS,
so any braniac would be able to go hmmm what if St. Louis and Ottawa dont get in? thenn hmmmm there are 22 on the USL list and Ottaw and St. Louis are both there, then maybe if they dont get in the MLS. then maybe just maybe the likes of MIAMI or MONTREAL or ATLANTA could go in replacement to OTTAWA and ST.LOUIS,
so therefore the total numbers of teams in both leagues are CORRECT :D

Shway
03-25-2009, 02:42 PM
Both leagues would have to have major balls to unite, or form any sort of two/three tier organization. I don't buy the argument that it "simply can't work" because relegation/promotion has never been attempted in North America to my knowledge. However, if USL teams don't have MLS-standard facilities, then the potential costs outweigh the potential benefits.

so true, it hasn't been tried
and the aspect of facilities, the MLS original clubs would obviously be the top clubs, so even if lets say San Jose gets relegated, and a team like Cleveland comes up, do you think they would stay? honestly? NO!

IMO it would bring more attraction to Cleveland, to gain more fans, and for them to try and come up again and build a good facility,and develop a system that could eventually meet the criteria of MLS.

egoodwin
03-25-2009, 02:48 PM
Ottawa United?

ROFL

the most partisan city in the country, united

I really don't think so

Sab0tage
03-25-2009, 02:51 PM
thats why there is 22 in the USL and 18 plus 2 possible in the MLS,
so any braniac would be able to go hmmm what if St. Louis and Ottawa dont get in? thenn hmmmm there are 22 on the USL list and Ottaw and St. Louis are both there, then maybe if they dont get in the MLS. then maybe just maybe the likes of MIAMI or MONTREAL or ATLANTA could go in replacement to OTTAWA and ST.LOUIS,
so therefore the total numbers of teams in both leagues are CORRECT :D Neither Ottawa or St. Louis are a shoe-in for MLS or USL.

Atlanta is not getting into MLS, and Miami won't be for a while, if ever. Montreal won't until Saputo changes his ways.

Jack
03-25-2009, 02:52 PM
It's a nice dream.

Super Cereal
03-25-2009, 02:52 PM
Ottawa won't get a MLS team...

If city council approves Melnyk's proposal, they've got one.

Shway
03-25-2009, 02:57 PM
Neither Ottawa or St. Louis are a shoe-in for MLS or USL.

Atlanta is not getting into MLS, and Miami won't be for a while, if ever. Montreal won't until Saputo changes his ways.


my friend were in 2009
all im saying is who knows what will happen in 2012? right

Sab0tage
03-25-2009, 03:01 PM
my friend were in 2009
all im saying is who knows what will happen in 2012? right Not much will change by then to warrant a city like Atlanta getting a team. And you think MLS will make the 2012 expansion team decisions in 2012? No, they'll make them probably next year. Therefore, not as much will change as you seem to believe for places like that. St. Louis or Ottawa may get their issues ironed out, but Atlanta or Miami will not.

flatpicker
03-25-2009, 03:04 PM
It's a nice dream.


it sure is!


I think Hitcho and I are gonna start running amok again with our grandiose ideas of a two tier MLS!

:D


The stadium issue is the only real hurdle here.
Financially it could work though.
If the two tier MLS (MLS and USL merged) operated under the same single entity system currently in place then it could work.
Or at least a shared revenue system that would assist the smaller clubs.
Also, to help avoid big city clubs from ending up in the second division, it would be a good idea to have a playoff game between the bottom MLS-1 teams and the top MLS-2 teams. That way, Even if you finish last in MLS-1 you still have a chance to stay up if you beat the top MLS-2 team.

Also, this idea of merging with USL is better than our past discussion about splitting the current MLS into a two tier league.
Because, if 20 spots are available in MLS-1, then that would help make sure that most of the big clubs don't get booted down to MLS-2.


but yes... dreams...

Shway
03-25-2009, 03:09 PM
^^that can so work!!!!

the teams the dont make it into the playoffs
go into a playoff with the tops teams from USL .....hmmmmm thats sounds like a great idea to me,

goes back to garber stating with fans seeing there team out early, but with this they would still ahve games to go to and cheer on to ensure there spot!!

but yesss we can dream

T_Mizz
03-25-2009, 03:14 PM
This is what's going to have to happen after we get to 20 right? If i'm not mistaken Fifa only wants 20 teams in the top tier in every country

flatpicker
03-25-2009, 03:18 PM
^^that can so work!!!!

the teams the dont make it into the playoffs
go into a playoff with the tops teams from USL .....hmmmmm thats sounds like a great idea to me,




well, actually in the concept I mentioned, I think the "playoff/MLS Cup" would involve teams from both MLS-1 and MLS-2.
Kinda like the FA Cup.

This would help create more interest for fans of teams in the lower division.
Those teams would have a chance to beat the top teams for the MLS Cup.
The prize for MLS-1 teams would be winning the league.
Same with MLS-2, I suppose.

NF-FC
03-25-2009, 03:20 PM
This is what's going to have to happen after we get to 20 right? If i'm not mistaken Fifa only wants 20 teams in the top tier in every country

Fifa wants a lot of things, doesn't mean anyone cares

ginkster88
03-25-2009, 03:23 PM
^^^

See FIFA International dates.

I don't see there ever being any affiliation between the leagues, especially not as long as MLS remains single-entity.

ccopela
03-25-2009, 03:24 PM
Ottawa United?

ROFL

the most partisan city in the country, united

I really don't think so

I've got a good idea for a name for an Ottawa team.

Ottawa Valley FC (or SC)
a Nottingham Forest esque name

Would fit well too especially if the stadium is in Kanata. (I know Kanata is officially part of Ottawa but its not in reality, its still Kanata)

ExiledRed
03-25-2009, 03:34 PM
This is what's going to have to happen after we get to 20 right? If i'm not mistaken Fifa only wants 20 teams in the top tier in every country

So we can have 40 because MLS exists in two countries?

Shway
03-25-2009, 03:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExiledRed
So we can have 40 because MLS exists in two countries?


20!!! in the TOP TIER

jrey
03-25-2009, 03:45 PM
In every one of your posts, you seem to think we are some kind of major soccer continent and the league can manage all this.

There's a reason there's a cap under $3 million, you know.

Teams can't support it.

Ultimately, this league (and any other sports league) is about putting fans in the seats or making money.

Forget the other cities in this league, do you know how many Toronto fans would stop coming to games if we were relegated? A lot.

We are NOT a soccer continent. Everyone here would like us to be, but we're 100 years behind.

If I see this kind of thing in my lifetime, I'll be surprised. Very surprised.

rocker
03-25-2009, 03:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ExiledRed
So we can have 40 because MLS exists in two countries?


20!!! in the TOP TIER


yes, so Canada has 18 slots left in its top tier. :)
USA has 4 left in its top tier :)

Shway
03-25-2009, 04:03 PM
In every one of your posts, you seem to think we are some kind of major soccer continent and the league can manage all this.

There's a reason there's a cap under $3 million, you know.

Teams can't support it.

Ultimately, this league (and any other sports league) is about putting fans in the seats or making money.

Forget the other cities in this league, do you know how many Toronto fans would stop coming to games if we were relegated? A lot.

We are NOT a soccer continent. Everyone here would like us to be, but we're 100 years behind.

If I see this kind of thing in my lifetime, I'll be surprised. Very surprised.

In everyone one of your comments you seem to not see whats going on around you, this post is not talking about NOW! nor is it talking about next year, it is tlaking about 2012 and BEYOND!

we all know that the salary cap is going to be increased, every year in the next 3-4 years, so for you to talk present 24/7 just shows how much your brain can process.

and if Ultimately, this league (and any other sports league) is about putting fans in the seats or making money, then why could this be a possible solution to places to create more rivalries like if Austin was to play Houston competitively, and not exhibitions.

you might see it in your lifetime, just wake up to reality ,and smell the coffee and not the negative shit

jrey
03-25-2009, 04:06 PM
we all know that the salary cap is going to be increased, every year in the next 3-4 years, so for you to talk present 24/7 just shows how much your brain can process.

you might see it in your lifetime, just wake up to reality ,and smell the coffee and not the negative shit

do we know that? sorry, i missed don garber's news conference.

the cap is going to increase EVERY year? by 10 million each? that's great!

some call negative shit cynicism. others call it common sense.

YOU wake up and smell the coffee. have you even been to a game in a city outside of Toronto?

T_Mizz
03-25-2009, 04:13 PM
You may live to see it, I mean with current and future medical advances who knows how long you'll live

jrey
03-25-2009, 04:16 PM
You may live to see it, I mean with current and future medical advances who knows how long you'll live

Well I still hold the belief that I'm going to live forever, but in all reality, I probably won't.

T_Mizz
03-25-2009, 04:17 PM
Well I still hold the belief that I'm going to live forever, but in all reality, I probably won't.
Haha even thinking that you still think you'll never see it? that is a touch cynical mate:D

bignickel
03-25-2009, 04:18 PM
was talking to my brother about this the other day,
the most logical scenario is for mls to buy out usl.
don't know what the cost would be, or any of the intricacies, but this would make sense.
a 2 or 3 year flyer or warning on relegation also so that noone is caught off-guard.
could happen?

Shway
03-25-2009, 04:27 PM
thats exactly what i was thinking ....2015 it would start giving expansion teams atleast 3 years

Steve
03-25-2009, 04:34 PM
Why? Relegation is silly in this league. What happens when Toronto is relegated? Or LA? Or any of the other teams that the league DEPENDS ON FOR REVENUE? Because it will happen (and would have the last few years). It makes no sense to send a team with great support down and potentially alienate that support, while promoting a team that is getting 5000 a game. None at all. The only real arguement for it is "other people do it".

As for "the league might get too large" that's easily fixed. Instead of "MLS 1" and "MLS 2" just have "MLS East" and "MLS West". Each would be full leagues. At the end of the season, the top team in each would get their SS, while the top X number would go on to the MLS cup, which would be all the more interesting since you'd be playing against teams you don't play in the regular season.

jrey
03-25-2009, 04:42 PM
Why? Relegation is silly in this league. What happens when Toronto is relegated? Or LA? Or any of the other teams that the league DEPENDS ON FOR REVENUE? Because it will happen (and would have the last few years). It makes no sense to send a team with great support down and potentially alienate that support, while promoting a team that is getting 5000 a game. None at all. The only real arguement for it is "other people do it".

As for "the league might get too large" that's easily fixed. Instead of "MLS 1" and "MLS 2" just have "MLS East" and "MLS West". Each would be full leagues. At the end of the season, the top team in each would get their SS, while the top X number would go on to the MLS cup, which would be all the more interesting since you'd be playing against teams you don't play in the regular season.

THANK YOU!

flatpicker
03-25-2009, 04:43 PM
Why? Relegation is silly in this league. What happens when Toronto is relegated? Or LA? Or any of the other teams that the league DEPENDS ON FOR REVENUE? Because it will happen (and would have the last few years). It makes no sense to send a team with great support down and potentially alienate that support, while promoting a team that is getting 5000 a game. None at all. The only real arguement for it is "other people do it".

If this two-tier scenario ever happened, I am certain the salary cap would be high enough that no "high profile" city would ever get relegated (at least not before the league as a whole gets a lot stronger). The cap would have to be such that maybe only 6 or so teams could spend the full amount.



As for "the league might get too large" that's easily fixed. Instead of "MLS 1" and "MLS 2" just have "MLS East" and "MLS West". Each would be full leagues. At the end of the season, the top team in each would get their SS, while the top X number would go on to the MLS cup, which would be all the more interesting since you'd be playing against teams you don't play in the regular season.


This is a scenario I have been rambling on about for some time now.
The geographical situation in North America is unique to most leagues in the world.
Having a two-league system (set up like MLB) would suit us well.
I would definitely put emphasis on winning your league (East and West).
But I would also have a large MLS Cup competition between all teams in both leagues.
Just because it nicely separates the importance of winning your league from winning the Cup.

Sab0tage
03-25-2009, 04:45 PM
Why? Relegation is silly in this league. What happens when Toronto is relegated? Or LA? Or any of the other teams that the league DEPENDS ON FOR REVENUE? Because it will happen (and would have the last few years). It makes no sense to send a team with great support down and potentially alienate that support, while promoting a team that is getting 5000 a game. None at all. The only real arguement for it is "other people do it".

As for "the league might get too large" that's easily fixed. Instead of "MLS 1" and "MLS 2" just have "MLS East" and "MLS West". Each would be full leagues. At the end of the season, the top team in each would get their SS, while the top X number would go on to the MLS cup, which would be all the more interesting since you'd be playing against teams you don't play in the regular season. Thank you. Relegation may work in places like England, where no matter which team is promoted to the Premier League they will sell out most if not all of their home games. It serves no purpose in MLS. What if the only teams that actually sell out (Chicago, Toronto etc.) get relegated, and the teams in the top flight can barely reach 10,000 tickets sold?

jloome
03-25-2009, 04:58 PM
It's a nice dream.

And that's all it is. I've interviewed USL's VP Tim Holt about this and been told that they have no intention of ever merging, in any respect, with MLS. They like their business model better.

Super Cereal
03-25-2009, 05:15 PM
I've got a good idea for a name for an Ottawa team.

Ottawa Valley FC (or SC)
a Nottingham Forest esque name

Would fit well too especially if the stadium is in Kanata. (I know Kanata is officially part of Ottawa but its not in reality, its still Kanata)

That would be a fantastic name, given that a lot of the fans would probably be from the Ottawa Valley (like myself), rather than Ottawa.

NF-FC
03-25-2009, 06:16 PM
Thank you. Relegation may work in places like England, where no matter which team is promoted to the Premier League they will sell out most if not all of their home games. It serves no purpose in MLS. What if the only teams that actually sell out (Chicago, Toronto etc.) get relegated, and the teams in the top flight can barely reach 10,000 tickets sold?

How this would work in my dream is:

MLS keeps single entity for all teams. Teams in MLS1 get 2.5 million base salary, and MLS2 1.5 million, but teams can spend above the base out of their own pocket. Salary cap for both MLS 1 & 2 is in the 4-5 million range.

This way you will give strong teams an advantage and ensure that LA, NY, Toronto etc. won't be dropped in place of DesMoines.

Razcle
03-25-2009, 08:26 PM
hahah look at the L'impact in the USL!!!

Ossington Mental Youth
03-25-2009, 11:43 PM
And that's all it is. I've interviewed USL's VP Tim Holt about this and been told that they have no intention of ever merging, in any respect, with MLS. They like their business model better.

what are the differences outside of the cap and roster?

Cashcleaner
03-26-2009, 12:38 AM
In every one of your posts, you seem to think we are some kind of major soccer continent and the league can manage all this.

There's a reason there's a cap under $3 million, you know.

Teams can't support it.

Ultimately, this league (and any other sports league) is about putting fans in the seats or making money.

Forget the other cities in this league, do you know how many Toronto fans would stop coming to games if we were relegated? A lot.

We are NOT a soccer continent. Everyone here would like us to be, but we're 100 years behind.

If I see this kind of thing in my lifetime, I'll be surprised. Very surprised.

QFT - all of it, actually.