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C-town
03-24-2009, 04:14 PM
Anybody want to guess at what BMO expansion is going to look like?
I am guessing construction will start after the season ends, and hopefully be completed in time for the 2010 Season opener. Maybe with construction happening they will push back the Home Opener to May and thus give us more warm weather games!

Anyways... I got to thinking what would MLSE Do....

The Most likely situation is as stated in the Toronto Star / Sun...
http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/603933

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2009/03/18/8789656-sun.html

is to add an extra deck to the East Side. Why? Because this is the easiest way to add more LUXURY BOXES!! By adding 18 - 20 luxury boxes they will be able to cover the estimated 15 Million dollar construction price tag quite quickly + recover the remaining costs by increasing the number of fans in the stands (8,000) for 16 games a year.

So that being said... what would the East Side look like?

I was inspired by the Rio Tinto Stadium (Minus the crazy light reflector / roof). I dont want a roof on the East side because this would block the view of the city from the West Side (Sorry east siders your going to have to fry in the sun for a while longer...)

Rio Tinto Stadium....
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3012/2953161703_d3d1f20095.jpg?v=0

As you can see they have a small second tier of seating above the first deck. Not quite as extreme as BMO's west side.

So what would this look like at BMO... (Please excuse my very poor and limited photoshop skills.)

Before (Current):

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/211/506582603_f92035c6ef.jpg

After?
http://smdillon.googlepages.com/BMOEast.jpg

I didnt read anything about South Side Expansion... but there is room.
So let's take a look at that... It would be nice to re-unite the South with the East. (get rid of the Gate 3 gap and connect the East side supporters section with the South) Again, I dont think this will happen... because there is no desire to build luxury boxes in this area (the lifeblood of any owner).

Before (Current):
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1217/533842235_8d2d2cceb3.jpg

After?

http://smdillon.googlepages.com/BMOSouth.jpg

I would love to see other designs and hear your thoughts and ideas on the subject!

boban
03-24-2009, 04:18 PM
Nobody said it was a sure thing that expansion would occur this offseason.
having said that your seat additions doesn't look like they add up to the 8,000 that Alsemi mentioned.

RPB_RED_NATION_RPB
03-24-2009, 04:20 PM
the southend...definitely needs a second level........and hopefully MLSE would let THE SUPPORTER GROUPS have control of selling the tickets in that section

james
03-24-2009, 04:23 PM
looks pretty cool man. I would like to see a roof over the south end tho. Keep the sound in, would exhoo like crazy, atmosphere would be twice as loud as it is without a roof. But then it would look wierd if there was only 1 roof over the soth end. So maybe add a roof to the west stand as well.

BuSaPuNk
03-24-2009, 04:23 PM
^ Like what you have done there...designs look good.....also agree with you RedNation.....we need to have some sort of say with the supporters end....of if the FO can get the non supporters out that would be great too....just kind of hard cause where you going to put them now?

RedWookie
03-24-2009, 04:23 PM
I am for a second level on the south side. it would be nice to get season tickets for one of the supporter sections

james
03-24-2009, 04:24 PM
anyone know how many seats are in the current south end stand? Current West stand and Current East stand?

wzhxvy
03-24-2009, 04:32 PM
I am sorry guys but I just dont see MLSE funding a stadium expansion. Unless they somehow take ownership over BMO, or some construct that see the taxpayers paying a part of the bill...which I am fine with because I think the stadium is worth investing in. I just can't take the spin that they somehow will just pay for it. Lets get real.

BuSaPuNk
03-24-2009, 04:34 PM
I think MLSE will buy the building eventually. There just making sure that the market is there for this team for a while. If they control the building ie ACC. That is pure revenue from ticket sales and such. Expansion would be #1 on the list if MLSE bought BMO.

Carter
03-24-2009, 04:34 PM
anyone know how many seats are in the current south end stand? Current West stand and Current East stand?

I'm guessing 20,500.... well thats what it states on wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMO_Field

MFG1
03-24-2009, 04:36 PM
As much as I am for expansion, I know it is inevitable, I would hate extra stands on the east side. I would lose the top row, and they would charge me more because my seats would be considered "closer to the pitch"

flatpicker
03-24-2009, 04:47 PM
well... something will happen sometime...

It just irks me that they have no intention to close in the corners in the south.

The way BMO is set up right now it offers very little intimacy.
The bleachers that make up BMO are basically what you would find at a car race or a parade!

No roof coming... no corners coming... I will take the open space / Indy 500 set up, since I have no choice.

billyfly
03-24-2009, 04:55 PM
Thank you C-Town for posting this. I had been bothering you all day to get this done.

C-town
03-24-2009, 04:55 PM
Nobody said it was a sure thing that expansion would occur this offseason.
having said that your seat additions doesn't look like they add up to the 8,000 that Alsemi mentioned.

I think I put in too many new seats on the East Side! (take what I put there and cut it in half!) Much more like the amount on the second level at Rio Tinto.

This second level could serve as an additional supports section or perhaps a family section.

C-town
03-24-2009, 04:57 PM
Thank you C-Town for posting this. I had been bothering you all day to get this done.

Take me to Columbus for Free.

flatpicker
03-24-2009, 05:01 PM
Ahhh Screw it!

Let's just wait a few years until things are a little better financially...
Then, if all is still going well, we simply build a new beautiful stadium and give BMO to the Argos!

billyfly
03-24-2009, 05:05 PM
Ahhh Screw it!

Let's just wait a few years until things are a little better financially...
Then, if all is still going well, we simply build a new beautiful stadium and give BMO to the Argos!


I've heard this idea before. But where? Lakeshore Lions Arena area?

NF-FC
03-24-2009, 05:10 PM
I've heard this idea before. But where? Lakeshore Lions Arena area?

downsview?

billyfly
03-24-2009, 05:11 PM
well... something will happen sometime...

It just irks me that they have no intention to close in the corners in the south.

The way BMO is set up right now it offers very little intimacy.
The bleachers that make up BMO are basically what you would find at a car race or a parade!

No roof coming... no corners coming... I will take the open space / Indy 500 set up, since I have no choice.


Yes. Seeing the space (and plumbing) between 112 and 111 and 110 drives me insane. It also allows the smell of the chicken pitas to hit me and make me hungry.

billyfly
03-24-2009, 05:11 PM
^^I'd rather have CNE than Downsview.

StandUpIfYouHateChelsea
03-24-2009, 05:19 PM
ew , nah east side stays, expanded second tear over south , and north? over beer garden, whatevs bmo is still a shit american high school stadium , and Toronto sports fans are still being ripped off.....;)

Torcida
03-24-2009, 05:23 PM
anyone know how many seats are in the current south end stand? Current West stand and Current East stand?
approx 3000 for the South.
9000 for the West
8000 in the East.

rocker
03-24-2009, 05:32 PM
the construction company listed 3000 for south, 10000 for west, and 7000 for east in one of their construction websites. (the one that had that webcam we used to watch).

Ontario Arab
03-24-2009, 05:43 PM
A roof would work.

LucaGol
03-24-2009, 05:47 PM
Ahhh Screw it!

Let's just wait a few years until things are a little better financially...
Then, if all is still going well, we simply build a new beautiful stadium and give BMO to the Argos!

Port of Toronto.

Book it

billyfly
03-24-2009, 05:50 PM
^Where? Define pls.

Calvin
03-24-2009, 05:52 PM
ew , nah east side stays, expanded second tear over south , and north? over beer garden, whatevs bmo is still a shit american high school stadium , and Toronto sports fans are still being ripped off.....;)

This is OUR HOUSE youre talking about.

olegunnar
03-24-2009, 07:06 PM
It'll be the east stand that gets expanded I bet.

West is done
North--they won't get rid of the beer garden
South--they won't close the corners or make it more difficult to convert the stand to moveable stands for the CFL.

TFCREDNWHITE
03-24-2009, 07:09 PM
Nice post. I hope they do expand the east and south stand!! Expanding by 5000-8000 would be great!!

billyfly
03-24-2009, 08:04 PM
It'll be the east stand that gets expanded I bet.

West is done
North--they won't get rid of the beer garden
South--they won't close the corners or make it more difficult to convert the stand to moveable stands for the CFL.

But the freaking plumbing is there! I see it every game. Damn these guys. Build out the Stadium already.

wzhxvy
03-24-2009, 08:11 PM
I really dont get people who bad mouth BMO...I think its a great place, I like it location, views and personality. Would you rather have a freaking skydome like piece of crap ? Made to pay off contractors ???

Cannon
03-24-2009, 08:16 PM
Nicely done C-Town, I'm impressed!!

dclaro
03-24-2009, 08:25 PM
I am sorry guys but I just dont see MLSE funding a stadium expansion. Unless they somehow take ownership over BMO, or some construct that see the taxpayers paying a part of the bill...which I am fine with because I think the stadium is worth investing in. I just can't take the spin that they somehow will just pay for it. Lets get real.
maybe im being optimistic, but maybe MLSE increased leafs ticket prices to fund the purchase of BMO:noidea:, they'll probably have a profit of $100 million by next season from the leafs

boban
03-24-2009, 08:46 PM
approx 3000 for the South.
9000 for the West
8000 in the East.
3,000 South
7,000 East
10,000 West

DOMIN8R
03-24-2009, 08:58 PM
Anybody want to guess at what BMO expansion is going to look like?
I am guessing construction will start after the season ends, and hopefully be completed in time for the 2010 Season opener. Maybe with construction happening they will push back the Home Opener to May and thus give us more warm weather games!

Anyways... I got to thinking what would MLSE Do....

The Most likely situation is as stated in the Toronto Star / Sun...
http://www.thestar.com/Sports/article/603933

http://www.torontosun.com/sports/soccer/2009/03/18/8789656-sun.html

is to add an extra deck to the East Side. Why? Because this is the easiest way to add more LUXURY BOXES!! By adding 18 - 20 luxury boxes they will be able to cover the estimated 15 Million dollar construction price tag quite quickly + recover the remaining costs by increasing the number of fans in the stands (8,000) for 16 games a year.

So that being said... what would the East Side look like?

I was inspired by the Rio Tinto Stadium (Minus the crazy light reflector / roof). I dont want a roof on the East side because this would block the view of the city from the West Side (Sorry east siders your going to have to fry in the sun for a while longer...)

Rio Tinto Stadium....
http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3012/2953161703_d3d1f20095.jpg?v=0

As you can see they have a small second tier of seating above the first deck. Not quite as extreme as BMO's west side.

So what would this look like at BMO... (Please excuse my very poor and limited photoshop skills.)

Before (Current):

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/211/506582603_f92035c6ef.jpg

After?
http://smdillon.googlepages.com/BMOEast.jpg

I didnt read anything about South Side Expansion... but there is room.
So let's take a look at that... It would be nice to re-unite the South with the East. (get rid of the Gate 3 gap and connect the East side supporters section with the South) Again, I dont think this will happen... because there is no desire to build luxury boxes in this area (the lifeblood of any owner).

Before (Current):
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1217/533842235_8d2d2cceb3.jpg

After?

http://smdillon.googlepages.com/BMOSouth.jpg

I would love to see other designs and hear your thoughts and ideas on the subject!

This is a fun thread.

TFC FORZA RPB
03-24-2009, 09:02 PM
Just looking at those pictures, i can only imagine, how much louder and how much more intimidating it would be for the visitor's to come and play. This needs to happen ASAP

BRed
03-24-2009, 09:09 PM
I think they should put a barbecue grill on the south end and a little to the left, that would look just fabulous!

t-bag
03-24-2009, 10:25 PM
I really dont think anybody outside of the people on here are that concerned with the noise levels or intimidation. A roof on any stand would be a colossal waste of money for somebody. Our season currently runs through the summer... nobody wants to be stuck under a shitty aluminum roof in beautiful thirty degree weather. And nobody really cares when it rains either. In the fall it can be shitty but deal with it, its only a few games anyway. To spend a few million on a covered stand so the supporters groups are louder is a ludicrous idea.
Covered stands are a relatively new thing pretty well everywhere. For the most part, in the UK stands were either open terraces or partially covered with the roof of a barn until after the taylor report. People stood out in the pissing rain and managed to make noise for 80-90 years without complaining.

I would hold off on expansion as well. Its only the third season. It still remains to be seen whether the average fans will fuck off after the initial novelty wears off. Even last year there were alot of empty seats towards the end of the season. Tickets were sold, but people couldnt be arsed to get down the stadium.

If they do expand it needs to be in the south end. I dont think anybody wants to ruin the cool view of the skyline that one can get from the west stand. As most people have said, filling in the corners wouldnt be a half bad start.

Bars92
03-24-2009, 10:59 PM
Build the Kop!!:drinking:

TFC John
03-24-2009, 11:29 PM
Since we are floating pie-in-the-sky ideas here, this is what I'd do. Build the south stand again exactly on top of the existing stand. It would form a roof for the lower tier to help project the noise. Additionally (and this is the best part) you tell existing season ticket holders that what you've done is raise the old section and built the new section underneath it. Therefore their season seats are in the top tier and the bottom tier are the new seats that can only be bought through the supporters groups. This magically removes the non-supporters from the supporters sections. Real supporters can transfer to the same seats in the bottom tier by contacting their group ticket reps. By opening more supporters sections you can draw the supporters who are having trouble in the family sections down to the south end where they belong.

Shakes McQueen
03-24-2009, 11:31 PM
Real Salt Lake is a really dumb name for a MLS team (I never knew there was a King of Utah!), but man, Rio Tinto is one beautiful stadium.

I hope we always keep TFC at BMO Field, but we do need expansion.

You can't beat that location, though. When you're in the upper seats, and you can see the entire Toronto skyline? Beautiful.

I don't want us to be playing out in the burbs, like so many other MLS teams do. I like having our ground in the heart of the city.

- Scott

RedWookie
03-24-2009, 11:36 PM
Since we are floating pie-in-the-sky ideas here, this is what I'd do. Build the south stand again exactly on top of the existing stand. It would form a roof for the lower tier to help project the noise. Additionally (and this is the best part) you tell existing season ticket holders that what you've done is raise the old section and built the new section underneath it. Therefore their season seats are in the top tier and the bottom tier are the new seats that can only be bought through the supporters groups. This magically removes the non-supporters from the supporters sections. Real supporters can transfer to the same seats in the bottom tier by contacting their group ticket reps. By opening more supporters sections you can draw the supporters who are having trouble in the family sections down to the south end where they belong.

Perfect. love it!


Give it 2-3 more seasons and lets just see how many people carry on with supporting the Toronto team and how many people give up after a while. If we have people who are like leafs fans and will come to games win-lose or draw, the people at BMO/MLS will notice and be ready to invest.

james
03-24-2009, 11:57 PM
the construction company listed 3000 for south, 10000 for west, and 7000 for east in one of their construction websites. (the one that had that webcam we used to watch).

thanks was just curious to get an idea how big they would have to make each stand to get to 8,000 more seats. So if the East stand has 7,000 right now im sure they would have to build it the same size as the west stand just to add 3,000 more seats. And if they were to add seats in the south end they would have to double its current size just to add 3,000 more seats. And we still would have an extra 2,000 seats...so either get rid of the beer garden...add more seats to fill in the corners or to just make the South end pretty dam big which would make it 8,000 seats!!:eek:

james
03-25-2009, 12:05 AM
the stadium was built so that if they wanted to expand BMO they could easily without terrying it down. And it was made so that the East stand would be expanding, tho its a nice City skyline view, with expansions that would be gone, no way around it tho really.

Don Julio
03-25-2009, 01:02 AM
Some truths:

1. No expansion will happen this winter - we're at least another year out and that's optimistic. Between red tape, zoning, CNE considerations, money and actually building the damn thing it's just not possible.

2. Private boxes will be a big factor in the equation, to be sure.

3. There's very little incentive for MLSE to increase the size of the south end and charge $15-$20 a seat. It won't make them any money, and it will deter sales of the more expensive seats.

4. The South End will be the last place that gets a roof in the stadium, and by last I mean never.

5. Seems to me the East stand and South stand have different slopes. Not really a good formula for attaching them (not a fact, but a gut feeling)

6. The 15 row addition to the East, as pictured, does not detract from the skyline view from the West - in fact it's addition by subtraction by hiding the Direct Energy Centre. Very encouraging!

Cashcleaner
03-25-2009, 01:06 AM
http://smdillon.googlepages.com/BMOSouth.jpg

This looks pretty tight, though I would hope they go one step further and fill in the gap above the entrance. You can still have a corridor in there underneath, but just cover it up with seats on the second level.

Let's be honest, we all know the best course of action is to put in stands where the North End beer garden is. Paul has mentioned several times now that they really want to keep the open-air patio, but I really don't see the point to it anymore. The money they get from Carlsberg to plaster their logo all over the place is great and all, but you could get a lot more out of 8,000 paying ticket holders.

What they should do is put an exact replica of the South Stand right where the beer garden is now. One step further would be to put a row of boxes above the East stand. No need for a proper second tier - just a think line of boxes like over in the West Stand. I don't know if we'll ever see a set-up like that, but its my suggestion.

Don Julio
03-25-2009, 01:09 AM
7. They will not allow a stand in the North End because it will detract and overshadow the Food Building. BMO Fiield's location is a real asset, but it comes with very culturally well established neighbours which have to be minded.

8. No Maple Leafs money will ever go to TFC investments. TFC are profitable enough that it is unnecessary. A pension fund can not it's shareholders' money on goodwill projects. Any addition/expansion will have to be a sound business case for increasing profits.

ginkster88
03-25-2009, 01:10 AM
Paul also stated that there is not enough room for any stands in the North End due to the Food building and city regulations.

Smokecell
03-25-2009, 01:29 AM
I have no input to provide as far as my own version of a possible expansion but I must say your photoshop skills are good enough my friend, I think the pictures you made are top notch.

Cheers

ginkster88
03-25-2009, 01:29 AM
What exactly is the Food building?

Cashcleaner
03-25-2009, 01:34 AM
^ It's the building to the immediate north of the stadium. During the CNE it's used to showcase Canadian and international food and drink.

UltraSuperMegaMo
03-25-2009, 01:38 AM
What exactly is the Food building?

Dude, did they have bananas on the island you were stranded on?:noidea:

Just kidding, it’s basically a big food court that’s open when the EX is in town. Once or twice I’ve seen people watching TFC games from its roof. They open up its bathrooms (on the buildings second floor) after TFC games - if you don’t want wait in line inside BMO and your parents raised you right (so peeing in the parking lot isn’t an option) it's the place to go.

mlsintoronto
03-25-2009, 06:53 AM
The food builing is a useless eyesore that the board of governors of Ex place cling to as symbolic of better times at CNE. Today it is a food court to 20 days a year. The other 345 days it is a country club for rats.

The ONLY redeeming feature of this hole is the giant F O O D sign above the entrance. That is cool.

boban
03-25-2009, 07:04 AM
Paul also stated that there is not enough room for any stands in the North End due to the Food building and city regulations.
Paul also is not a construction guy.

Mark in Ottawa
03-25-2009, 07:22 AM
Hey I like the updated images.... very nice.
About the Picture of the west stand.. The one looking towards the CN Tower...
Are those Corporate boxes you have between the levels?

The press box would still be in the centre and corporate boxes would be a great idea to draw more $$ to the team.
Not that I would ever get to sit in one :rolleyes:, or want to for that matter...
my ultimate destination is in the South End... some year ;)

drewski
03-25-2009, 07:43 AM
Paul also is not a construction guy.

but his is a guy in the FO who knows what can and can't be done based on agreements with the city

Eastend
03-25-2009, 07:49 AM
1 thing I will be extremely pissed with if/when this expansion goes through is if I lose my current seat location...I wouldn't mind the second tier in the south end (except for shit being thrown down on me) but if I am moved in any way from my 1st row seat it would suck monkey ass.....fuming just thinking about it.....

brad
03-25-2009, 08:00 AM
It'll be the east stand that gets expanded I bet.

West is done
North--they won't get rid of the beer garden
South--they won't close the corners or make it more difficult to convert the stand to moveable stands for the CFL.

Probably correct. Also, on expanding the East vs the South - they can charge more money for seats on the East side (due to the being "better" seats).

arbogast
03-25-2009, 08:10 AM
It'll be the east stand that gets expanded I bet.

West is done
North--they won't get rid of the beer garden
South--they won't close the corners or make it more difficult to convert the stand to moveable stands for the CFL.


I agree. PB even stated on these boards that the corners would not be filled in, and I think you hit upon the reason: CFL.

brad
03-25-2009, 08:17 AM
I like the open corners, it's the beer patio that spoils it IMHO. Some of the best stadiums I've been to overseas had open corners. I actually think they feel more intimate than the modern, mecca stadium.

olegunnar
03-25-2009, 08:23 AM
Paul also is not a construction guy.

I agree with this.
It always sounds fishy to me these fire regulation excuses. Are there no other exits? Of course there are. How about all the exits on the East side that were covered up in year 2 for food and beer stations.
How about the equally large exits in the south end that are barely used.

Every game I laughed at the masses of people lined up at the gate by the food building. The gates behind the south end 114-116, never had more than 20 people at them.

The only thing I can think of is that the square footage of the north end beer garden is included with the square footage on the crappy undersized west side concourse, in some calculation for minimum open area requirements, because the idea you can't have seats in the north end because of a lack of exits, or too many people is laughable.

boban
03-25-2009, 08:26 AM
but his is a guy in the FO who knows what can and can't be done based on agreements with the city
How do you figure?
His job is the ops side of the actual club.
Infrastructure is someone elses domain.

tfctillidie
03-25-2009, 08:26 AM
http://i39.tinypic.com/2lyvpx.jpg

someday...

boban
03-25-2009, 08:29 AM
I agree with this.
It always sounds fishy to me these fire regulation excuses. Are there no other exits? Of course there are. How about all the exits on the East side that were covered up in year 2 for food and beer stations.
How about the equally large exits in the south end that are barely used.

Every game I laughed at the masses of people lined up at the gate by the food building. The gates behind the south end 114-116, never had more than 20 people at them.

The only thing I can think of is that the square footage of the north end beer garden is included with the square footage on the crappy undersized west side concourse, in some calculation for minimum open area requirements, because the idea you can't have seats in the north end because of a lack of exits, or too many people is laughable.
Olegunner you are bang on.
You guys here would actually think they pop in a stadium without future expansion of the north side in mind?
Come on people. The beer garden is only the reason and they will use any excuse to not build there. Fire code my ass.

Shaughno
03-25-2009, 08:35 AM
Olegunner you are bang on.
You guys here would actually think they pop in a stadium without future expansion of the north side in mind?
Come on people. The beer garden is only the reason and they will use any excuse to not build there. Fire code my ass.

:rolleyes: Ever had the chance to look over the OBC and the FPPA/Ontario Fire Code?

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with PB's statements about the fire code being the reason they can't build there, but you'd be surprised how MUCH it limits you, especially when it comes to public areas.

Thing that gets me with the fire code side of things, is the space would change from an open air, non seating, to a fixed seating rating. Which theoretically, should IMPROVE the fire code situation from what I remember.

deltox
03-25-2009, 08:37 AM
i like that new pic.

i would want digital sponsor boards- i think they look PRO.

and that concrete wall at the bottom of the seats - where the rails are attached to, this should be red. that way it wouldnt stand out.

drewski
03-25-2009, 08:43 AM
digital boards would looks BO$$

billyfly
03-25-2009, 08:50 AM
C-Town put the RPB logo into the seats like BMO, the Maple Leaf etc.

TFC RealDeal RPB
03-25-2009, 09:06 AM
Give it 2-3 more seasons and lets just see how many people carry on with supporting the Toronto team and how many people give up after a while. If we have people who are like leafs fans and will come to games win-lose or draw, the people at BMO/MLS will notice and be ready to invest.

who will give up on Toronto FC, we still go to leaf's game's and they haven't won in 42 year's and the ACC is still ramed ,with ticket's going up again. There is also a list of about 10 000 - 14 000 people waiting to get season ticket's so how don't u make BMO bigger ? Fuck we need more seat's and we it bad :D

TFC RealDeal RPB
03-25-2009, 09:09 AM
http://i39.tinypic.com/2lyvpx.jpg

someday...

Looks good but NO ROOF

Nomad
03-25-2009, 09:15 AM
http://i39.tinypic.com/2lyvpx.jpg

someday...

Thats about the right amount of people in the stands if the stadium expanded to that size.

IMHO the stadium is actually the right size for the fanbase. The problem is that many people have tickets who shouldn't have them (scalpers) or don't need them (people with 8 season tickets for a family of 2). The numbers on the waiting list don't tell the true story. How many people on that list would actually get season tickets? How many passed up getting seasons this year (it was actually easier than i thought...if you were willing to pay the money for non-supporter seats)? How many on that list would passthem up? How many put their name on and forgot about it? How many would be die hards and go to every game or just use them sporadically? How many are just to have for business clients? How many are for scalpers, or for people who are greedy and just want more tickets for the sake of having them?......Lots of quetions, but all very valid.

What they need is total restructuring of existing season tickets, not expanding the stadium and not dealing with the current problems. Those will not be solved by expansion.

billyfly
03-25-2009, 09:22 AM
^ True. I think the quote from MLSEL was something like "up to 8,000 without doing a complete rebuild". Does this mean there are several sceanarios with a different amount of seats added? I just wish they did a few things to "even out the edges" and use some paint etc to make it look less like a tin can.

I agree that the waiting list needs to be taken with a grain of salt.

The other variable is what if they win/don't win something this year especially in the barren wasteland that is Toronto sports at the moment. What will that do to the fan base?

brad
03-25-2009, 09:26 AM
The numbers on the waiting list don't tell the true story. How many people on that list would actually get season tickets? How many passed up getting seasons this year (it was actually easier than i thought...if you were willing to pay the money for non-supporter seats)? How many on that list would passthem up? How many put their name on and forgot about it? How many would be die hards and go to every game or just use them sporadically? How many are just to have for business clients? How many are for scalpers, or for people who are greedy and just want more tickets for the sake of having them?......Lots of quetions, but all very valid.


Very good questions in here. I've often wondered about the makeup of the waiting list. How many people are there that are expecting $200.00 tickets in the supporters end, but would take $1000.00 tickets in an all seated area.

boban
03-25-2009, 09:32 AM
:rolleyes: Ever had the chance to look over the OBC and the FPPA/Ontario Fire Code?

I'm not saying I necessarily agree with PB's statements about the fire code being the reason they can't build there, but you'd be surprised how MUCH it limits you, especially when it comes to public areas.

Thing that gets me with the fire code side of things, is the space would change from an open air, non seating, to a fixed seating rating. Which theoretically, should IMPROVE the fire code situation from what I remember.
Roll your eyes at someone else.
PB has noithing to do with infrastructure so in my books its almost irrelevant what he says on stadium expansion.
I know someone who works with MLSE on infrastructure and has way more experience on things of this nature that you, I, or PB will ever had. It can be done.

Shaughno
03-25-2009, 09:43 AM
Roll your eyes at someone else.
PB has noithing to do with infrastructure so in my books its almost irrelevant what he says on stadium expansion.
I know someone who works with MLSE on infrastructure and has way more experience on things of this nature that you, I, or PB will ever had. It can be done.

Good for you. I'm speaking from my experience in working directly with the Fire Code and the Ontario Building Code.

I rolled my eyes because you fluffed it off like it's nothing, when in reality it's a fucking pain in the ass to deal with, especially when it comes to renovations.

If you bothered to read my post, I basically agreed that it shouldn't affect that particular area (north end). Meaning, it can be done if they wanted it to.

Jack
03-25-2009, 09:50 AM
Paul also is not a construction guy.

He may not be a construction guy, but don't you think he talks to the construction guys a lot if he's examining proposals and plans to expand the stadium? (which he is, BTW)

boban
03-25-2009, 09:50 AM
Good for you. I'm speaking from my experience in working directly with the Fire Code and the Ontario Building Code.

I rolled my eyes because you fluffed it off like it's nothing, when in reality it's a fucking pain in the ass to deal with, especially when it comes to renovations.

If you bothered to read my post, I basically agreed that it shouldn't affect that particular area (north end). Meaning, it can be done if they wanted it to.
I'm not saying there are not challenges. But to completely dismiss expansion as PB seems to elude is ridiculous. I never fluffed it off. But speaking form people who are in the know and their expert opinion - which has more weight than PB in this instance.

ginkster88
03-25-2009, 09:51 AM
I think 25000 is as big as the stadium should get for a long time... and I only say that because I want in. Too much expansion too soon is always a bad idea. We still don't have a good idea of what kind of crowd the team will actually draw, once the shine has worn off. I hope they don't even consider expansion until after season five.

Shaughno
03-25-2009, 09:52 AM
He may not be a construction guy, but don't you think he talks to the construction guys a lot if he's examining proposals and plans to expand the stadium? (which he is, BTW)

But that doesn't mean it CAN'T happen Jack, it could be his wording so that he doesn't have to say, they won't let it happen *cough* sponsors *cough*

boban
03-25-2009, 09:56 AM
He may not be a construction guy, but don't you think he talks to the construction guys a lot if he's examining proposals and plans to expand the stadium? (which he is, BTW)
Not really. His scope is the club. Not infrastructure.
He may be kept abreast on where things are going, but his decision is most likely kept to a minimum. When he mentions trades, players on trial, friendlies, etc. (things to do with the actual club), then I will take head.
Alsemi is the guy at MLSE for infrastructure and his team. And even they don't make all the calls as they have to consult architects and the GC.

Jack
03-25-2009, 10:01 AM
PB is the Business Manager of TFC. The player signings, trials and all that stuff is down to Mo Johnston.

I never said he was making the decisions, but he is involved in the process, no question.

Anyway, I don't really know what we're arguing about here. Who cares? When the time comes for expansion, all our questions will be answered. Until then, it's all speculation.

JonO
03-25-2009, 10:09 AM
^^^ - I had hoped these type of threads would have died off with the start of the season...

boban
03-25-2009, 10:09 AM
PB is the Business Manager of TFC. The player signings, trials and all that stuff is down to Mo Johnston.

I never said he was making the decisions, but he is involved in the process, no question.

Anyway, I don't really know what we're arguing about here. Who cares? When the time comes for expansion, all our questions will be answered. Until then, it's all speculation.
You are the one who is arguing.
YBut you are correct, he is the BM of TFC, not the stadium.
My point is that people seem to take PB word on stadium issues as some word of God or law, when in fact he experience in that field is not there, nor is it his scope.
He may be involved in the process, but minimally, as my contacts don't even know who he is.

Steve
03-25-2009, 10:11 AM
Not really. His scope is the club. Not infrastructure.
He may be kept abreast on where things are going, but his decision is most likely kept to a minimum. When he mentions trades, players on trial, friendlies, etc. (things to do with the actual club), then I will take head.
Alsemi is the guy at MLSE for infrastructure and his team. And even they don't make all the calls as they have to consult architects and the GC.

His scope is the BUSINESS of the club, not the club itself. So, in fact, those things you listed are things PB would not know much about (without talking to Mo). He is in charge of making the club make money, so overseeing things like advertising, growth plans, etc. So, actually, expansion of BMO field would very much be in his scope (though obviously it would be the overall concepts of expansion and not the specifics of it, they would employ experts for that.)

billyfly
03-25-2009, 10:13 AM
I would be fine with adding a smaller number of seats if they also improve the overall "look and feel" of the stadium.

I remember as a kid exploring MLG once and seeing a giant wrought iron Canadian coat of arms. Where is this thing? Wouldn't it be cool to use it in a entrance way to BMO a la the YNWA gates at Anfield?

arbogast
03-25-2009, 10:15 AM
Roll your eyes at someone else.
PB has noithing to do with infrastructure so in my books its almost irrelevant what he says on stadium expansion.
I know someone who works with MLSE on infrastructure and has way more experience on things of this nature that you, I, or PB will ever had. It can be done.


That's rediculous. Do you REALLy think that PB, Dir of Ops would not be involved in expansion plans from a business perspective? he would know exactly what was taking place because he would have to present the business case for it to the board.

Shaughno
03-25-2009, 10:15 AM
^^ I think that's what Boban was getting at, Paul won't necessarily know the specifics and he may only know what's best for the club and not all available options. What does it matter at this point? I dunno.

billyfly
03-25-2009, 10:15 AM
^^^ - I had hoped these type of threads would have died off with the start of the season...


Exapnsion of BMO was a legit thread as MLSE mentioned it and there were articles about it. I know its speculation but if we only talked about things that have happened or will happen for sure there would be like 3 threads.

mlsintoronto
03-25-2009, 10:16 AM
its like i'm not even in the room.... :)

My comments on expansion into the north end have been tempered with a "likely scenario" perspective. When MLSEL is looking at expansion, we need to take some factors into account:
1) we do not own the building and will probably never own the building because of its location on Ex Place. all the property there belongs to the city. So if we invest in the building it has to have some sort of payback...and remember we're not adding top price seats. Add to that the payback has to come over 19 games (or so) a year. Just like if you are renting a house, you'd think long and hard before renovating.
2) the north patio (and the north limit to the property) is quite tight. When I said we need it for fire egress I was referring to a worst case scenario (thats how the fire marshall looks at it, and rightly so.) for us the worst case is a disaster during a Full House event (rock concert with over 10,000 people on the field). As I understand it all patrons need 2 exit opportunities, and the building needs to be able to evacuate in a number of minutes. Given all of that, expanding on the north is not impossible, just not practical.

I'll reserve comment on the breadth of my responsibilities. I know what I do for a living. Funny how others feel they can comment. Gotta go. I have to call the infrastructure department.

Shaughno
03-25-2009, 10:18 AM
As I understand it all patrons need 2 exit opportunities, and the building needs to be able to evacuate in a number of minutes. Given all of that, expanding on the north is not impossible, just not practical.

That's what I was saying. :lol:

billyfly
03-25-2009, 10:20 AM
Paul come back! Find me the Wrought Iron Coat of Arms!

nascarguy
03-25-2009, 10:27 AM
http://i39.tinypic.com/2lyvpx.jpg

someday...sweet:drinking:

mlsintoronto
03-25-2009, 10:34 AM
Paul come back! Find me the Wrought Iron Coat of Arms!

huh?

BoobsFC
03-25-2009, 10:36 AM
Paul, will BMO ever get digital ad boards?

I don't really care about advertising but the digital boards (like seattle has) looks so professional and gives any stadium that "european" look.

Thank you.

billyfly
03-25-2009, 10:39 AM
I remember seeing an old wrought iron Canadian coat of arms in storage at Maple Leaf Gardens once that I don't believe was sold at auction when they closed down MLG.

If it is still in possession by MLSE, could something like that be added/incorporated to BMO field?

Why do this? I think it would be a rocking idea to add character and flavour to the Stadium. I know MLSE don't own BMO field etc (but a man can dream can't he?)

Jack
03-25-2009, 10:42 AM
You are the one who is arguing.
YBut you are correct, he is the BM of TFC, not the stadium.
My point is that people seem to take PB word on stadium issues as some word of God or law, when in fact he experience in that field is not there, nor is it his scope.
He may be involved in the process, but minimally, as my contacts don't even know who he is.

I'm not arguing, I'm informing. There's a difference ;)


its like i'm not even in the room.... :)

*snip*.

I'll reserve comment on the breadth of my responsibilities. I know what I do for a living. Funny how others feel they can comment. Gotta go. I have to call the infrastructure department.

Thanks for the answers Paul.

As for commenting on the breadth of your responsibilities, I'm just giving my impression based on what I know :noidea:. In the future, I'll just ask you directly.

nascarguy
03-25-2009, 10:44 AM
Paul, will BMO ever get digital ad boards?

I don't really care about advertising but the digital boards (like seattle has) looks so professional and gives any stadium that "european" look.

Thank you.
yeah digital boards would be cool

mlsintoronto
03-25-2009, 10:51 AM
Paul, will BMO ever get digital ad boards?

I don't really care about advertising but the digital boards (like seattle has) looks so professional and gives any stadium that "european" look.

Thank you.

I agree - that game looked great and that was part of the overall package. We have looked at investing in those but if you check out the ad boards at the next game you'll notice that most of the space goes to league-wide partners...meaning we only see 1/15th of the revenue from those. We are given only a handful of spots for local partners so it is difficult to make the math work. We're working with the league to come up with a different model (and they are responsive)...but I expect that this will take a few years as existing partnership deals come up for renewal.

ACSertL
03-25-2009, 10:53 AM
I agree - that game looked great and that was part of the overall package. We have looked at investing in those but if you check out the ad boards at the next game you'll notice that most of the space goes to league-wide partners...meaning we only see 1/15th of the revenue from those. We are given only a handful of spots for local partners so it is difficult to make the math work. We're working with the league to come up with a different model (and they are responsive)...but I expect that this will take a few years as existing partnership deals come up for renewal.

Yeah I don't remember there being a Dick's Sporting goods in the GTA :)

boban
03-25-2009, 10:54 AM
I'm not arguing, I'm informing. There's a difference ;)
For a pres. who is supposed to show some leadership you sure do like to nit pick and prolong debates.

BoobsFC
03-25-2009, 11:15 AM
Thanks Paul, makes sense.

Jack
03-25-2009, 11:17 AM
For a pres. who is supposed to show some leadership you sure do like to nit pick and prolong debates.
It's funny how you seem to be the one that provokes that behavour, not just in me, but in many different people. ;)

The members of the group know what I do and that's enough for me. Your opinion of my leadership is irrelevant.

Nomad
03-25-2009, 11:17 AM
For a pres. who is supposed to show some leadership you sure do like to nit pick and prolong debates.

He isn't your president as per your "registered user" so why are you harping on him?

Seems you were doing just as much nitpicking.

billyfly
03-25-2009, 11:18 AM
I just want my Coat of Arms

james
03-25-2009, 11:23 AM
i like that new pic.

i would want digital sponsor boards- i think they look PRO.

and that concrete wall at the bottom of the seats - where the rails are attached to, this should be red. that way it wouldnt stand out.

i find those boards annoying. I prefer how they are now.

C-town
03-25-2009, 11:44 AM
http://i39.tinypic.com/2lyvpx.jpg

someday...

This looks great. However, how much of the stadium would really be covered by that "roof". Plus look at how much of the skyline is left with this roof. Roofs cost lots of money too... and unless done right can end up looking pretty crappy... pretty fast (especially when you think about the winds coming off Lake Ontario during the winter).

And if I know MLSE, and I don't, I know that they would for 100% sure put in luxury boxes on the East side. (The only way they can re-coup the costs of any expansion to their shareholders).

I personally however think that if you doubled the South end zone that would make a huge difference....
1. It would allow some of the 14,000 people on the waiting list to purchase affordable tickets.
2. It would be terrifying for the opposition when attacking that end of the field!

But again... there is no opportunity for Luxury suites + the room to expand in that end is limited.

The East side will likely be the only candidate for expansion.

Thanks for all the replies!

Cashcleaner
03-25-2009, 01:41 PM
its like i'm not even in the room.... :)

My comments on expansion into the north end have been tempered with a "likely scenario" perspective. When MLSEL is looking at expansion, we need to take some factors into account:
1) we do not own the building and will probably never own the building because of its location on Ex Place. all the property there belongs to the city. So if we invest in the building it has to have some sort of payback...and remember we're not adding top price seats. Add to that the payback has to come over 19 games (or so) a year. Just like if you are renting a house, you'd think long and hard before renovating.

Hold on a second. You're saying that the city of Toronto, the one that's currently up to its eyeballs in debt, won't be willing to sell off BMO Field? The feds and provinces are all talking about selling off crown properties left, right, and centre, but suddenly our stadium is something they want to keep? I'm sorry Paul, it doesn't add up. Is it a case of no willingness to sell, or is it perhaps no willingness to buy?



2) the north patio (and the north limit to the property) is quite tight. When I said we need it for fire egress I was referring to a worst case scenario (thats how the fire marshall looks at it, and rightly so.) for us the worst case is a disaster during a Full House event (rock concert with over 10,000 people on the field). As I understand it all patrons need 2 exit opportunities, and the building needs to be able to evacuate in a number of minutes. Given all of that, expanding on the north is not impossible, just not practical.Now this is what I don't understand. You've got a patio at the north end filled to the brim with heavy movable tables and chairs, and hundreds of people all crammed together in no orderly fashion and that's okay. But it becomes a fire hazard to build a proper stand with the obligatory corridors and points of access and systematic seating arrangement. Again, are we talking more along the lines of fulfilling our fire safety obligations, or the contract we have with Carlsberg?

BoobsFC
03-25-2009, 01:41 PM
Hey Paul, I know this has nothing to do with BMO expansion, but while you might be still online, why does every MLS team, even the Sounders have an official MLSnet podcast on itunes, but TFC don't? Is it because we're Canadian and have different laws that apply to media distribution?

Shaughno
03-25-2009, 01:55 PM
Now this is what I don't understand. You've got a patio at the north end filled to the brim with heavy movable tables and chairs, and hundreds of people all crammed together in no orderly fashion and that's okay. But it becomes a fire hazard to build a proper stand with the obligatory corridors and points of access and systematic seating arrangement. Again, are we talking more along the lines of fulfilling our fire safety obligations, or the contract we have with Carlsberg?

Fire code is weird like that. Things like distance to the nearest exit change depending on the layout. Having an open area has completely different restrictions from having fixed seating stands. Also, with fixed seating I doubt they would be able to pull off the fire regulations for concerts. That's IMO the biggest issue along with Carlsberg's contract.

nfitz
03-25-2009, 02:02 PM
Hold on a second. You're saying that the city of Toronto, the one that's currently up to its eyeballs in debt, won't be willing to sell off BMO Field? The feds and provinces are all talking about selling off crown properties left, right, and centre, but suddenly our stadium is something they want to keep? I'm sorry Paul, it doesn't add up. Is it a case of no willingness to sell, or is it perhaps no willingness to buy?

???? I can assume that you have not lived in Toronto long, and have no understanding of the city. BMO Field is part of the exhibition grounds; the city has owned this whole area for well over a century. No one in their right-mind would ever think that the city would part with this, any more than the federal government would sell Parliament Hill!

And as for the cities debt issue - the city budget is in better shape than it has been for years, particularly with the recent plan to remove the welfare costs from cities over the next 10 years. Good grief, they recently restored all the transit service they had to cut in the mid-1990s when Harris eliminated much of it's funding for cities - what makes you think things are dire now?

Besides, there are plenty of pieces of city land that they are looking to sell, that they don't need, and can get money for.

FITZY75
03-25-2009, 02:34 PM
8000 for sure in the next two years... And the Argos coming is a foregone conclusion...

Jack
03-25-2009, 02:52 PM
8000 for sure in the next two years... And the Argos coming is a foregone conclusion...
Oh really?

TFC RealDeal RPB
03-25-2009, 05:55 PM
Whatever happen's i hope there is NO ROOF

boban
03-25-2009, 09:12 PM
Whatever happen's i hope there is NO ROOF
Why not?

cy43
03-25-2009, 10:07 PM
its like i'm not even in the room.... :)

My comments on expansion into the north end have been tempered with a "likely scenario" perspective. When MLSEL is looking at expansion, we need to take some factors into account:
1) we do not own the building and will probably never own the building because of its location on Ex Place. all the property there belongs to the city. So if we invest in the building it has to have some sort of payback...and remember we're not adding top price seats. Add to that the payback has to come over 19 games (or so) a year. Just like if you are renting a house, you'd think long and hard before renovating.
2) the north patio (and the north limit to the property) is quite tight. When I said we need it for fire egress I was referring to a worst case scenario (thats how the fire marshall looks at it, and rightly so.) for us the worst case is a disaster during a Full House event (rock concert with over 10,000 people on the field). As I understand it all patrons need 2 exit opportunities, and the building needs to be able to evacuate in a number of minutes. Given all of that, expanding on the north is not impossible, just not practical.

I'll reserve comment on the breadth of my responsibilities. I know what I do for a living. Funny how others feel they can comment. Gotta go. I have to call the infrastructure department.


I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, I'm more just curious in a "I never though about it before" kind of way. If worst case is evacuating the building in a matter of mins with the floor open, how does a place like the ACC differ in fire saftey requirements than what BMO would look like with a closed-in north end?

Really I'd rather be safe then build a north stand, but I'm just curious!

Thanks

mlsintoronto
03-26-2009, 06:24 AM
I hope this isn't taken the wrong way, I'm more just curious in a "I never though about it before" kind of way. If worst case is evacuating the building in a matter of mins with the floor open, how does a place like the ACC differ in fire saftey requirements than what BMO would look like with a closed-in north end?

Really I'd rather be safe then build a north stand, but I'm just curious!

Thanks

ok so now I've never thought of it before in enough depth to comment intelligently so take these as someone who is not an expert in fire code:

ACC has really cool fire safety systems. I've been in there when they've been testing AND the building has many many stairwells and exits and each has air handling systems to create a wall of fresh air to create walls that fire cannot go through and people can. The air handling and water handling systems are something you can't replicate in an outdoor facility.

but thats just a guess.

Inswingingwingman
03-26-2009, 07:04 AM
Really decent work from footy supporters, who knew some can photoshop and chant, good on ya lads.

If I send you my photo can you make a balding almost 60 year old worn out retired firefighter regain that hot look made me a chick magnet in a uniform? NO not the chicks in the retirement home!!!!!

And while yer at it, I'm playing with my brass band aat the St. Lawrence Centre on April 5, but can get off during the game. Can't find a ticket to save my soul. Reminds me of the shock when I decided to try and get from London to take in a Raptors game. The son who works in TO got a bonus and paid $275 for each for tickets 12 rows pas the backboard and 15 rows up. Man those seats sucked but at least I can die having said I was at an nba game.

But I played football (soccer) until the arthritis took my walking to a waddle and osteoporosis killed any idea of kicking a ball, well maybe with my new grandson, though I want to tackle anyone with a thing that looks like a ball.

As to the stadium, the high def big screen TV is as close as I can get, and I hook the sound to my gig speakers and turn the living room into a supporters section. Streamers, beer cups on the floor and I send the wife to Bouclair for the game.

I have to give her cash cause some guy stole her credit card, but I'm not reporting it, he's spending less money than she did.

So if I'm in Toronto and want to take in pre-game and watch in a bar which one? I've lived in Toronto before, and am staying at the Metropolitan on Chestnut street. \

If I meet the right guy I might even spring for dues, I hear Dalton is giving me $1000 to spend. Actually it's my money anyway, maybe I should save it LOL.

Shaughno
03-26-2009, 07:05 AM
ok so now I've never thought of it before in enough depth to comment intelligently so take these as someone who is not an expert in fire code:

ACC has really cool fire safety systems. I've been in there when they've been testing AND the building has many many stairwells and exits and each has air handling systems to a wall of fresh air to create walls that fire cannot go through and people cannot. The air handling and water handling systems are something you can't replicate in an outdoor facility.

but thats just a guess.

Basically, you're right.

HUGE differences between them. One you have an open air stadium with both fixed and non fixed seating areas. The other you have a fully enclosed arena, with a massive sprinkler system and as you mentioned a state of the art air handling system. Sprinkler systems, especially more modern ones, improve your fire rating drastically. Something, as you mentioned, cannot be replicated in an outdoor facility. Also as you mentioned, the ACC has a bunch of major exits that are considered means of egress. At BMO, there's really only one means of egress for the whole north end of the stadium. Problem being, for the means of egress to meet fire code, there has to be no obstruction or immovable objects that prevent people from exiting and it has to exit to safe and public way. Another bonus the ACC has, is they can (whether they do I don't know) provide 'safe rooms' so that the people don't necessarily have to exit the building to be protected from fire. For BMO, being that it's an open air stadium, the patrons must be fully outside the stadium to be considered 'safe'.

Anyway, that's off the top of my head... early in the morning so I may have missed something. :lol:

TFC John
03-26-2009, 07:25 AM
In the interest of the "you learn something everyday" category...

The difference between the Building Code and the Fire Code is this; the Building Code describes how your building is constructed or laid out, the Fire Code describes how your building is used. Section 9 of the Fire Code deals with renovations but it only applies to buildings that are so old that they do not comply with the Building Code - I don't think this applies to BMO Field.

I expect that any changes to the stadium would be a Building Code issue. Within the Building Code BMO Field would be classified as an Assembly structure (people assemble there). I cannot quote you the exact sections that apply because the code is not available online (they sell it for big bucks). There are different types of Assembly classifications and a buiding like BMO Field might have some areas that are two or more types. I think the stands would be one type while the beer garden would be another. Each type of assembly has it's own formula regarding the maximum occupancy and the type of exists. For instance, a movie theatre can have more people per square metre than an office building. That is because the theatre has fixed seating while an office is expected to have more large furniture.

When you design a building you have to account for the occupancy load and provide adaquate "means of egress" (ways to get out). That's why we use professional architects instead of photoshop guys to draw blueprints (even though the photoshop pictures in this thread are very cool).

If Paul says they can't find a way to redesign the beer garden to make money and still comply with exit requirements, I tend to believe him. It is not an easy thing to do and I'd expect that MLSE has explored it in detail.

Don't forget MLSE is only a tenant in the building. Typically when you rent you don't renovate. Any construction you do automatically belongs to the landlord and the landlord has the responsibility to maintain it. I think the City of Toronto is the landlord in this case and they should not be looking at what is good for BMO Field for the next 5 - 10 years. They should be looking at what is good for BMO Field for the next 50 years. If (heaven forbid) TFC stops being their tenent they are stuck with a very specialized building and are still obliged by law to maintain it to a safe standard. As far as I know, no one has come up with a good use for Maple Leaf Gardens but the owners are still carrying the costs of maintaining it. The old Exhibition Stadium was not torn down to make way for a more proffitable venture. It was torn down because that was cheaper than maintaining a building that no one knew what to do with.

As a fan I'd love to see some kind of expansion at BMO Field but Paul talks to people who see BMO Field as a business venture so it comes down to the math of how do you make the most money with the least amount of risk. They know they can sell more seats but they won't expand until they find a way to do it where all the key players make enough money to justify the risks involved. I'm not sure this is the right ecconomic climate to be taking a gamble on future revenue. Instead, this is a time to provide you customers better value to keep them loyal. Judging by what we saw in K.C. last week, that looks like what TFC is doing (at least I hope so).

BTW the cool air system Paul described at the ACC are called smoke curtains and they are becoming common in large assembly areas because they create isolation zones and reduce the requirements for mass egress capability.

P.S. Paul - You are a funny guy! I love to read your posts.

Inswingingwingman
03-26-2009, 08:17 AM
As I taught Building and Fire Code, and was part of the enforcment process for over 10 years as an Assistant to the Fire Marshal I can clarify some things.

1. The Fire Code is a maintenance document. For existing buildings. It provided for some retrofit of buildings in Section 9, however it has squat to do with an expansion.

2. The building code calls bmo an open air facility, unless you start enclosing spaces. Putting on a roof would change the classification from A Division 4 to 3. A beer garden, unless it has a permanent roof, walls etc. is A Division 2 and thus the fire separation requirements and fire protection and egress becomes an issue. Also I don't remember exactly when they built the original structure but the insanity that doubled the water closet requirements for assembly occupancies (Ie the women got double the toilets in a recent building code change which has stopped lots of restaurants from updating or expanding), without giving any leeway to the building divisions.

So an open air non combustible structure has some lenient regulations. There are still restrictions of travel distances, and the number of fixed seats before you hit an aisle. I've been retired for quite a while but I think I remember the Fire Code (included old arenas and baseball stadiums) that you could not pass more than 15 seats to get to an aisle. Then because the stairs have to handle who's coming down you need 9mm of clear stairs per person. Then when you get to grade or level space you need 6mm per person.

The problem with adding on the top another deck that covers the lower portion of a structure gets you into an interpretation problem. If the lower deck is no longer open air you have to meet certain requirements. And that deck above needs fire protection from below.

If there is a rose in the process, it is that the code is no longer written in stone. Due to the objective based code system now in place an engineer can make something that does not conform to the existing code, but meets the objective in a broad sense. Most of the guys I worked with and still have breakfast with once a week, 2 engineers mostly retired, and a guy with a large construcion company all agree, most don't want to put a stamp on a plan that makes them vulnerable.

The private boxes are a sticky wicket. Now you have fire separation requirments, perhaps sprinklers, egress issues, handicapped access issues, elevators for assembly occupancies washrooms on that level...YIKES.

Not a lot of easy solutions. I suspect you are going to see the thing infilled, meaning they will put seats in corners. I do not know how much higher you can go without making aisles wider, nor am I really an expert on how you add the washroom facilities, or even calculate that.

The whole thing will take some fancy footwork..........

Shaughno
03-26-2009, 08:44 AM
As I taught Building and Fire Code, and was part of the enforcment process for over 10 years as an Assistant to the Fire Marshal I can clarify some things.

1. The Fire Code is a maintenance document. For existing buildings. It provided for some retrofit of buildings in Section 9, however it has squat to do with an expansion.

2. The building code calls bmo an open air facility, unless you start enclosing spaces. Putting on a roof would change the classification from A Division 4 to 3. A beer garden, unless it has a permanent roof, walls etc. is A Division 2 and thus the fire separation requirements and fire protection and egress becomes an issue. Also I don't remember exactly when they built the original structure but the insanity that doubled the water closet requirements for assembly occupancies (Ie the women got double the toilets in a recent building code change which has stopped lots of restaurants from updating or expanding), without giving any leeway to the building divisions.

So an open air non combustible structure has some lenient regulations. There are still restrictions of travel distances, and the number of fixed seats before you hit an aisle. I've been retired for quite a while but I think I remember the Fire Code (included old arenas and baseball stadiums) that you could not pass more than 15 seats to get to an aisle. Then because the stairs have to handle who's coming down you need 9mm of clear stairs per person. Then when you get to grade or level space you need 6mm per person.

The problem with adding on the top another deck that covers the lower portion of a structure gets you into an interpretation problem. If the lower deck is no longer open air you have to meet certain requirements. And that deck above needs fire protection from below.

If there is a rose in the process, it is that the code is no longer written in stone. Due to the objective based code system now in place an engineer can make something that does not conform to the existing code, but meets the objective in a broad sense. Most of the guys I worked with and still have breakfast with once a week, 2 engineers mostly retired, and a guy with a large construcion company all agree, most don't want to put a stamp on a plan that makes them vulnerable.

The private boxes are a sticky wicket. Now you have fire separation requirments, perhaps sprinklers, egress issues, handicapped access issues, elevators for assembly occupancies washrooms on that level...YIKES.

Not a lot of easy solutions. I suspect you are going to see the thing infilled, meaning they will put seats in corners. I do not know how much higher you can go without making aisles wider, nor am I really an expert on how you add the washroom facilities, or even calculate that.

The whole thing will take some fancy footwork..........


Yikes! Good recap, I definitely wasn't going to go into that much detail at 8am this morning. :lol:

Mark in Ottawa
03-26-2009, 09:54 AM
I just want my Coat of Arms
Got a picture of it??

You could always submit a picture of the coat of arms and a synopsis of your idea to BMO field management.

Who knows maybe someone in the local historical society could back up your idea?

I personally like it. Anything that can "brand" the stadium as unique is good in my opinion.

billyfly
03-26-2009, 01:27 PM
Got a picture of it??

You could always submit a picture of the coat of arms and a synopsis of your idea to BMO field management.

Who knows maybe someone in the local historical society could back up your idea?

I personally like it. Anything that can "brand" the stadium as unique is good in my opinion.

No. No picture. :( I guess I should call MLSE.

Jack
03-26-2009, 02:21 PM
I cleaned up the off-topic part of the discussion.

If there are any questions about why, PM me.

Thanks.

mezz
03-26-2009, 02:53 PM
we should expand and make BMO 65,000 capacity like OLD TRAFFORD!~

cy43
03-26-2009, 03:53 PM
ok so now I've never thought of it before in enough depth to comment intelligently so take these as someone who is not an expert in fire code:

ACC has really cool fire safety systems. I've been in there when they've been testing AND the building has many many stairwells and exits and each has air handling systems to a wall of fresh air to create walls that fire cannot go through and people cannot. The air handling and water handling systems are something you can't replicate in an outdoor facility.

but thats just a guess.

Well that just makes sense.

Thanks!

rocker
03-26-2009, 04:00 PM
so the halftime CRUSH we have on the concourses is "legal"? :)
hate to see a fire start right then. I'd be trampled.

Inswingingwingman
03-26-2009, 06:52 PM
Trampled? Actually research proves that 99% of the time emergencies are not an occasion for panic. In our culture we do the fire drills at school and people just act properly. That's the reason for them. I did help a PHd scientist do a study on a very large building owned by the federal gov't. They put in cameras, ran several fire alarms, then put some smoke into the place and pulled the alarm. We ran trucks from a block away, blew some sirens, and they filmed what went on. Only difference was with the false alarms people just sort of talked on the phone before the floor marshal's sent them out. On the smell of smoke they just left nice and orderly.


As stated earlier, having an open air, no roof facility without boxes makes the structure not too expensive to build. Going higher means special ramps wider aisles, etc, all at greater cost..

Do not think the whole thing is easy to happen, it might be a tough deal due to costs.

Inswingingwingman
03-26-2009, 06:53 PM
Oh and by the way, the scientist was a she, and french canadian and maybe the hottest Professor I ever met.

BRed
03-26-2009, 10:25 PM
Wow that sounds like an interesting report...makes me want to read it, what was the proffessors name? :)

rocker
03-26-2009, 11:09 PM
Trampled? Actually research proves that 99% of the time emergencies are not an occasion for panic. .

I've already been trampled on the concourse at BMO during halftime, No need for a study. ;)

I'm just trying to understand all this fire code stuff and the point of wider aisles when BMO Field is packed to the gills already, even though apparently it meets all the code. :)
I mean, I try to go to the washroom at halftime. The washroom is directly across from my aisle... and I can barely get across (you gotta move north south, with the crowd, to get anywhere).
I already find BMO scary at times for crowds.

Marc"2L"
03-26-2009, 11:26 PM
Agreed. Paul, is there anything that can be done to fix the crowd problems? Surely you can hire somebody to at least study it.

Enough with this depressing shit about our stadium....

Any firm details on design stuff for the expansion? :D

Inswingingwingman
03-27-2009, 06:29 AM
The difference is during half time people are milling not leaving. So the 'concorse' was not designed so that everyone can get out of their seats and just stand there.

Many assembly buildings suffer a similar fate, from Stratford's festival building to the ACC, where half time is a bit of a nightmare.

When you think about the logistics of expansion, you can't just throw 10 rows of seats around the stadium and use existing exits, it won't work unless the original design had that fact built in.

http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/fr/frhb/index_e.html

Oldtimer
03-27-2009, 07:45 AM
I hate electronic ad boards, distracts from the game.

I don't care if it's being done in many stadiums in Europe, we're much better off without it.

Shaughno
03-27-2009, 08:02 AM
I've already been trampled on the concourse at BMO during halftime, No need for a study. ;)

Incorrect.


to inflict injury or destruction especially contemptuously or ruthlessly —usually used with on, over, or upon

You've been stuck in a crowded area, maybe bumped shoulders at most. You have not been 'trampled' on the concourse. It's a fucking sporting event, the concourses get busy because people are all trying to access the same areas. The only difference is, with soccer, not many people leave the game before half time to get food/drinks like other sports so that makes it that much more crowded.

Fire code and the OBC relate to means of egress, which is getting people OUT of the building. I guarantee the concourse would not fill up like that if the stadium was evacuated during the run of play.

greatwhitenorf
03-27-2009, 09:13 AM
Mayor Miller has publicly stated on more than one occasion that the stadium will soon expand, most likely by adding more seats above the east side. He's mentioned that the capacity would grow by at least 5,000 in this scenario. But he doesn't want to lose the skyline view from his upper deck seats either.

What hasn't been mentioned is that there's rooom and structural support in place to add two more sections to each end of the west side's upper deck, above the existing private suites. Guessing that would add 4,000 and be the least troublesome option in the short term.

Adding 15 rows above the current east side - with private boxes -as per the photoshopped illustration earlier in this thread, would likely require the current east side to be taken down, the perimeter brick wall to be removed and probably a complete rebuild to mirror the west side, with a lot more concrete structure needed.

And who at MLSE would benefit from that deal? Concrete king Larry Tanenbaum.

For those of you griping about little issues with BMO, obviously you're not old enough to recall the travesty that was CNE Stadium which once sat on the same site. Even dear old Varsity Stadium, which had great sightlines down the sides, had an awful curved end zone behind the running track and left fans seated well away from the action. This has been a wonderful set up to watch pro soccer be reborn in Toronto.

Obviously the stadium needs to expand. If the east side was built to mirror an expanded west side and the south end double decked, you'd have a superb 30 to 35,000 seat stadium in a great location. You justify the costs by adding grass and host the bulk of our national teams' games plus schedule in more interenational friendlies, which don't necessarily have to be played against TFC. We should be part of future events like this summer's tournament involving the Milan clubs and Chelsea.

Assume, also, that as TFC gets better as a club, we make the playoffs and advance regularly into CONCACAF Champions League play.

Not hard to envision years where well over 30 important, big-crowd-drawing soccer games are played at BMO Field. And we'll never, ever require the services of a CFL team to help defray the costs.

And if MLS continues to grow successfuly, Mayor Miller will not have much of a selling job to do with city council.

boban
03-27-2009, 09:35 AM
What hasn't been mentioned is that there's rooom and structural support in place to add two more sections to each end of the west side's upper deck, above the existing private suites. Guessing that would add 4,000 and be the least troublesome option in the short term.
You are right about that being room for adding seats but it only adds about 1,500 (give or take) - not 4,000.

mlsintoronto
03-27-2009, 10:24 AM
I don't see any scenario where the city antes up one penny. the most I'd expect from the city (this isn't me taking a shot...just being realistic) would be support, and even that is not a given. Civic politics is a strange beast.

C-town
03-27-2009, 10:36 AM
What hasn't been mentioned is that there's rooom and structural support in place to add two more sections to each end of the west side's upper deck, above the existing private suites. Guessing that would add 4,000 and be the least troublesome option in the short term.




I never realized, until seeing this post, and looking at some photos... that there is indeed room for quite a bit of expansion on the West Side!

Here is the Stadium as we know it today...
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/188/476039392_49b5164328_b.jpg

Here is what it might look like with "End caps"...

http://smdillon.googlepages.com/BMOwest.jpg

From my calculations... I think this would add about 2500 - 3000 (affordable tickets!)

Plus this would allow for further expansion of the supporters zone in the SW corner!

This might in fact be the least costly addition of all. Of course there is no reason why the 8000 expansion would have to occur all at once. I think based on how fast they built this stadium... this could easily be done over the Winter.

Thoughts on West Side Expansion?

BuSaPuNk
03-27-2009, 10:46 AM
^ I like it looks good also on the south side that opens up the possiblitiy of the added seats connecting to the added deck on the south side.

drewski
03-27-2009, 10:47 AM
I don't see any scenario where the city antes up one penny. the most I'd expect from the city (this isn't me taking a shot...just being realistic) would be support, and even that is not a given. Civic politics is a strange beast.


and next year is an election year which makes things even more unpredictable

Shway
03-27-2009, 11:25 AM
http://smdillon.googlepages.com/BMOwest.jpg

From my calculations... I think this would add about 2500 - 3000 (affordable tickets!)

Plus this would allow for further expansion of the supporters zone in the SW corner!

This might in fact be the least costly addition of all. Of course there is no reason why the 8000 expansion would have to occur all at once. I think based on how fast they built this stadium... this could easily be done over the Winter.

Thoughts on West Side Expansion?



I love it!!!!!!
even like that the field looks more intimate, and closed

( I never realised all the holes in BMO field )

guess we gotta bring out the "WE DESERVE BETTER" sign LOL!:rolleyes:

billyfly
03-27-2009, 01:10 PM
Does anyone have a good pic of the gap between the south end and the east stands? To me that is 100% the easiest (I'm not considering CFL field considerations) place to put seats.

Inswingingwingman
03-27-2009, 01:20 PM
The London Knights used to be the laughing stock of the OHL. They got a fancy new arena, top notch faciltiy and went from obscure to Memorial Cup champions.

In sports some of the solutions are simple. As a firefighter I had a part time job, but unlike others doing roofing or cement work I was running an office that handled the sales analysis using software I wrote. Company started with one facility and now boasts almost 200. I left that in '96 because my doctor said just do one job and I kept the one with the pension, but I sold my wife (she still lives with me) along with my shares.

But you need fans, marketing, and how to exceed the expectations of the people who buy your product. If you take the current income based on stadium revenues and realize you can pump that number up while keeping most of your fixed costs down, then it makes sense to expand.

All that said, the Knights didn't have a hockey specific stadium. I've seen Broadway shows, Diana Krall, Rod Stewart, Great Big Sea and many others come to the arena/entertainment facility.

(Ducks)

I do think grass is a good idea for the long haul, but who knew day 1 where this might go?

And as to road trips, a bus costs $1000 aprox per day for 50 people (maybe 58). So 20 bucks gets you a bus to Columbus, you might have to kick in a bit more for a second driver and lose a seat. Ticket to the game added in. Just sayin'.....

I think given the sales the stadium will expand, and I think the photoshop architects are great.. Could you put me in a seat with sun, and while you're at it add a condo for me within walking distance ...LOL

OneLoveOneEric
03-27-2009, 01:24 PM
Am I the only person that still has major reservations about expansion? It's the beginning of the season, we're 1-0, everyone's stoked, and so am I. BUT....
Do we forget all the rainy weekday games with 1000 or so empty seats in them?
Do we forget the fact that most people are bleeding money right now?
In our excitement, do we think that success on the field is a foregone conclusion this year, and if it isn't, do we think that some fans will disappear after 3 bad years on the pitch?

I'm not saying any of these things are a given, but I think that a bit of caution must be thrown in to this discussion during the rosiest time of the year!

GabrielHurl
03-27-2009, 02:25 PM
grass first, then expansion

Grass could be here sooner than we think ;)

nick.mastro
03-27-2009, 02:28 PM
Grass first, then Roof. a Roof would make our stadium look bigger, plus would make our fans seem Sooooooooo much more louder

ACSertL
03-27-2009, 02:31 PM
Am I the only person that still has major reservations about expansion? It's the beginning of the season, we're 1-0, everyone's stoked, and so am I. BUT....
Do we forget all the rainy weekday games with 1000 or so empty seats in them?
Do we forget the fact that most people are bleeding money right now?
In our excitement, do we think that success on the field is a foregone conclusion this year, and if it isn't, do we think that some fans will disappear after 3 bad years on the pitch?

I'm not saying any of these things are a given, but I think that a bit of caution must be thrown in to this discussion during the rosiest time of the year!

Very good points in here.

And I am with Gabriel, get the grass in here first (probably the less expensive of the options).

billyfly
03-27-2009, 02:42 PM
No one is really saying "massive" expansion. C-Town added a bunch of seats but remember that MLSE said "up to 8,000 seats without a complete rebuild". This could mean in adding seats in sections in stages as the "need" dictates.


I like the idea of more "filler" expansion. Some nice finishing touches here and there to make it look less like a tin can.

Shway
03-27-2009, 03:00 PM
they also should build some type of wall to, the big black fence makes it even worse

boban
03-27-2009, 03:14 PM
Am I the only person that still has major reservations about expansion? It's the beginning of the season, we're 1-0, everyone's stoked, and so am I. BUT....
Do we forget all the rainy weekday games with 1000 or so empty seats in them?
Do we forget the fact that most people are bleeding money right now?
In our excitement, do we think that success on the field is a foregone conclusion this year, and if it isn't, do we think that some fans will disappear after 3 bad years on the pitch?

I'm not saying any of these things are a given, but I think that a bit of caution must be thrown in to this discussion during the rosiest time of the year!
You think rain doesn't occur in stadia in Europe or elsewhere where soccer is big? Furthermore, I don't see it hampering expansion efforts in those stadiums.
17,000 more tickets are waiting to be purchased. Expanding by 5-8 thousand seats will not eliminate demand.

NateDoGG
03-27-2009, 03:53 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v137/NateDoGG/torontofcfirstwin13.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v137/NateDoGG/torontofcfirstwin10.jpg

just for jokes :P

billyfly
03-27-2009, 03:56 PM
C-Town will have a fit.

Make some more!

Don Julio
03-27-2009, 04:50 PM
They should just get great big inflatable airplane slides in case of emergency!

mighty_torontofc_2008
03-27-2009, 05:02 PM
the southend...definitely needs a second level........and hopefully MLSE would let THE SUPPORTER GROUPS have control of selling the tickets in that section


the second level needs a second tier for sure...but the exhibition roadway may cause a problem....as for MLSE to let the supporters groups have control of selling tickets in that section? no thanks...lets keep it the way it is.

MFBODD
03-27-2009, 07:14 PM
The stadium was designed for expansion. I just hope they included more cans if they do.

kodiakTFC
03-27-2009, 07:39 PM
The stadium was designed for expansion. I just hope they included more cans if they do.

They should be doing that now, its friggen ridiculous. Luckily I have a secret system for using the washroom which last time even got me a free ice cream.

FCBarcelona
03-27-2009, 09:49 PM
I must sae well done with the photos most impressive, it would nice to see BMO expand and this will means people like myself will get to see a game at BMO. Saw TFC in chivas last season but never been to BMO.

billyfly
04-06-2009, 11:30 AM
Reports (don't ask me to find it) from last week indicate that MLSE expansion plans centre mostly around adding to South End.

C.Ronaldo
04-06-2009, 11:35 AM
your secret system is using the box seat bathrooms?


lol, that not secret. your just not caught yet.


Keep the peasants away from my box seats :P

Fort York Redcoat
04-06-2009, 11:35 AM
Makes sense. It's the section that's most coveted.

Limani_Ole
04-06-2009, 11:36 AM
Reports (don't ask me to find it) from last week indicate that MLSE expansion plans centre mostly around adding to South End.

Hopefully do something about those wind tunnels in the corners.. and add crappers and another gate.. and..

billyfly
04-06-2009, 11:37 AM
We need to find a desingnated seat for the big drum "Thunder".

billyfly
04-06-2009, 11:39 AM
I also forgot to mention cheerleaders will be in the stands and the new crappers will be named after Cathal Kelly (trying to merge as many threads as possible)

MisterMacphisto
04-06-2009, 03:48 PM
I hate electronic ad boards, distracts from the game.

I don't care if it's being done in many stadiums in Europe, we're much better off without it.

How about those weird freaky 3D billboards on the goal line they have everywhere. They look like they are standing up, but then you see a guy running over them, or you see a different camera angle and realize they are flat. :)

For me, the less blinking advertising and ad banners, the better.

uncle p
04-06-2009, 03:53 PM
They should be doing that now, its friggen ridiculous. Luckily I have a secret system for using the washroom which last time even got me a free ice cream.

It was so cold at the home opener, you must have pee'd in an ice cream cone :)

StandUpIfYouHateChelsea
04-06-2009, 04:38 PM
http://i39.tinypic.com/2lyvpx.jpg

someday...

please. NO emirates anyone? THAT wouldnt reflect the atmosphere back onto the pitch , it would just diffuse it =P

MikeM
04-06-2009, 05:25 PM
I like the way it is right now. Definitely wouldn't like anything that detracts from the skyline when you're inside the stadium.

Shway
12-02-2009, 10:45 AM
thought i would bring this back :)

GhostKiller
12-02-2009, 11:30 AM
Didn't they confirm 1,200 extra seats for next season?

I_AM_CANADIAN
12-02-2009, 11:33 AM
^ Sorry, but I would hate a roof like that. It would make me feel like I was at a picnic or something.

Shway
12-02-2009, 11:51 AM
^^AGREED
but a roof sooner than later

FluSH
12-02-2009, 11:53 AM
^ Sorry, but I would hate a roof like that. It would make me feel like I was at a picnic or something.

A Flat Roof is the way to go... It would be a dream come true to have BMO FIELD fitted with a flat roof...

Roogsy
12-02-2009, 11:55 AM
A Flat Roof is the way to go... It would be a dream come true to have BMO FIELD fitted with a flat roof...

A sexy SEXY dream!

There wouldn't be a louder stadium in MLS.

billyfly
12-02-2009, 12:21 PM
After the North stands I don't think there will be any seat expansion for awhile.

zooko62000
12-02-2009, 04:52 PM
They need to connect the South and east stands, for TV and better atmosphere

rocker
12-02-2009, 07:25 PM
i always wished they had put the TV camera on the east stand (there's a platform for it) so that on TV you'd see the double decked west stand, plus the curved, filled-in corner on the southwest side of the stadium. but apparently due to sunlight they have to have it on the west stand.

canadian_bhoy
12-02-2009, 08:20 PM
Let's put a lid on it!


http://i48.tinypic.com/2isaao7.jpg

Brooker
12-02-2009, 09:04 PM
^^^ Omg! Yes!

Gixmo
12-02-2009, 09:09 PM
Let's put a lid on it!


http://i48.tinypic.com/2isaao7.jpg

That's the ticket, after twinning the South end

Blizzard
12-02-2009, 09:38 PM
i always wished they had put the TV camera on the east stand (there's a platform for it) so that on TV you'd see the double decked west stand, plus the curved, filled-in corner on the southwest side of the stadium. but apparently due to sunlight they have to have it on the west stand.

Yes, it's for TV. The last thing you want to shoot is the shadowed side of players with the sun hitting them from the west.

It makes for one really ugly television broadcast.

It's that or we play all our games at 9am! :)

rocker
12-02-2009, 09:43 PM
Yes, it's for TV. The last thing you want to shoot is the shadowed side of players with the sun hitting them from the west.

It makes for one really ugly television broadcast.

It's that or we play all our games at 9am! :)

what about night games tho? it'd be sweet.
Portland did it for the playoff game against Vanny, since the sun had set. That way they showed the big stand and it looked awesome. usually portland's cams shoot the other way.

James17930
12-02-2009, 09:48 PM
Let's put a lid on it!


http://i48.tinypic.com/2isaao7.jpg

But only after expanding the 2nd tier all the way around the south end and as much of the north as possible. Or the east too, though I'd have no problem keeping it single tier to keep the view of the skyline. The stadium I've always wanted BMO to look like eventually is this one:

http://visualrian.com/storage/PreviewWM/3174/38/317438.jpg?1213185375

Tivoli Neu in Innsbruck.

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/europe/austria/innsbruck_tivoli.shtml

Super
12-02-2009, 09:53 PM
I would love to see a roof on the south end sooner rather than later. It shouldn't cost too much to put a cheap one on top of the supporters, and no doubt it would improve the atmosphere at least 5-fold. We're talking pennies compared to the overall value it would add to the game day experience.

I'm a little shocked it hasn't been done yet.

I_AM_CANADIAN
12-02-2009, 09:58 PM
Let's put a lid on it!


http://i48.tinypic.com/2isaao7.jpg
YES. Only thing missing there is a north stand...

Blizzard
12-02-2009, 10:04 PM
what about night games tho? it'd be sweet.
Portland did it for the playoff game against Vanny, since the sun had set. That way they showed the big stand and it looked awesome. usually portland's cams shoot the other way.

It would depend on when the sun sets of course. Often the sun sets directly in the north-west corner of BMO. Our night games usually start in early twilight and it only really gets dark later so the problem of shadows and shooting the dark side of the players would still exist until the sun was completely down.

Late or early in the season it could work but then you also have to build a temporary commentary booth on the east side and arrange for additional camera positions and that can effect sold seating.

It's not impossible but it does add costs. Considering the current situation is totally functional, I can't see anybody going for it.

canadian_bhoy
12-03-2009, 07:16 PM
I honestly think they could put these two covers on for pretty cheap and it would at least double the level of atmosphere.

They aren't going to expand capacity for years - let's get a roof now.

We pushed hard for grass and got it....(thanks TFC)...now let's have a roof and we'll stop asking for things for at least 5 years!


Let's put a lid on it!


http://i48.tinypic.com/2isaao7.jpg

Super
12-03-2009, 07:23 PM
Well - how much to put a roof on top of the south end? Do anyone know a conservative estimate on constructing such a thing - on the cheap?

What they should do is put a roof on top of the south end with a logo from a sponsor - and call it the Carlsberg End, or whatever. Have the sponsor foot the bill. Then we can have it done before next season. I mean, FFS - we're talking about getting a cheap roof that most self-respecting teams in the 3rd division of Norway enjoy.

Also, let's be honest here. If atmosphere has ANY value, not only to the game day experience, but also to spur on our team as well as demoralize the away team, surely an investment in doubling, maybe tribbling, the atmosphere would be worth a few pennies. It's an investment!

Super
12-03-2009, 07:25 PM
We pushed hard for grass and got it....(thanks TFC)...now let's have a roof and we'll stop asking for things for at least 5 years!

To be honest, all I've wanted to add to BMO since day one was real grass and a roof. That's it. Sure, expansion of seats to capitalize on the interest in the club, but that's a given. But the other two would immediately improve the overall quality of the game day experience. Roof being the cheapest - by far!

I_AM_CANADIAN
12-03-2009, 07:29 PM
I honestly think they could put these two covers on for pretty cheap and it would at least double the level of atmosphere.

They aren't going to expand capacity for years - let's get a roof now.

We pushed hard for grass and got it....(thanks TFC)...now let's have a roof and we'll stop asking for things for at least 5 years!
lol... I agree. I could even live with a 3-sided stadium for a few more years if we got a roof. I can't imagine a cheap roof like, for example, this at Cambridge United's Abbey Stadium would cost much:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/3/3f/The_Abbey_Stadium_2.JPG

That's really all we'd need and it'd help our atmosphere to NO end.

I hope Paul reads this thread... :scarf:

Super
12-03-2009, 07:39 PM
I've been at small stadiums like the one pictured above back in Denmark, and 50 guys sounded like 500 under a roof like that. Awesome!

And like pictured above, you'd be able to put ads at the top of the roof. Surely you can find sponsors to foot the bill.

Brooker
12-03-2009, 07:50 PM
PAUL, ATLEAST BUILD US A SHITTY ROOF!

http://photos.travellerspoint.com/197194/Shitty_Wall.jpg

canadian_bhoy
12-03-2009, 07:55 PM
I've been at small stadiums like the one pictured above back in Denmark, and 50 guys sounded like 500 under a roof like that. Awesome!

And like pictured above, you'd be able to put ads at the top of the roof. Surely you can find sponsors to foot the bill.

Roof sponsor...let's do it!

http://i50.tinypic.com/4ih1yd.jpg

I_AM_CANADIAN
12-03-2009, 08:09 PM
Haha, touche! :D

We want a crappy roof!!

Always There
12-03-2009, 08:58 PM
I honestly think they could put these two covers on for pretty cheap and it would at least double the level of atmosphere.

They aren't going to expand capacity for years - let's get a roof now.

We pushed hard for grass and got it....(thanks TFC)...now let's have a roof and we'll stop asking for things for at least 5 years!

I think that render looks great. Nice work whoever made it. James17930?

If they are done doing any expansion for a bit after the North stand, maybe a roof could be the next project. At least for the South stand.

I like the look of stadiums that have been expanded a few times. Hopefully BMO keeps being expanded a piece at a time. Eventually it will be a very nice place with tons of character instead of being built just to be functional as it is now. Although I must say I love the place and think it has great character already.

torfchamilton
12-03-2009, 11:12 PM
http://visualrian.com/storage/PreviewWM/3174/38/317438.jpg?1213185375[/IMG]

Tivoli Neu in Innsbruck.

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/europe/austria/innsbruck_tivoli.shtml
I love the look of this stadium, so cozy and intimate. Love the wrap around corners. If you filled the corners at Bmo, added the north end and added the second level starting from 120 to 112, what do you think the capacity would be?

Troll
12-04-2009, 08:21 AM
With all the "give us a cheap roof" comments, I can see there are no engineers in this thread. Be carefull what you wish for, cause the cheap ones usually call for support beams to come straight down into the seats. We'll call it the 'Maple Leaf Garden's End'.... Obstructed views for everybody!



http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2214/2280010248_418925e673.jpg

DreFuss
12-04-2009, 11:24 AM
The stadium I've always wanted BMO to look like eventually is this one:

http://visualrian.com/storage/PreviewWM/3174/38/317438.jpg?1213185375

Tivoli Neu in Innsbruck.

http://www.worldstadiums.com/stadium_pictures/europe/austria/innsbruck_tivoli.shtml


Hey, after looking into this stadium I couldn't agree more. The history of the stadium is similar to BMO--started small and then expanded.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tivoli_Neu

Cashcleaner
12-04-2009, 11:30 AM
With all the "give us a cheap roof" comments, I can see there are no engineers in this thread. Be carefull what you wish for, cause the cheap ones usually call for support beams to come straight down into the seats. We'll call it the 'Maple Leaf Garden's End'.... Obstructed views for everybody!

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2214/2280010248_418925e673.jpg

These reinforced column-and-spar designs have proven very cost-effective and relatively easy to construct over recent years:

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2304/1553757065_9ebe6ed19a.jpg?v=0

I ask my friend. He's an engineer.

James17930
12-04-2009, 11:33 AM
I think that render looks great. Nice work whoever made it. James17930?

No -- canadian_bhoy. And I agree it looks good, but I would only want a roof on there now if there was the understanding that it wouldn't impede expansion later. If it would, then get the extra seats in before adding the roof.

And just think how much it would REALLY feel like home once we knew it was finished -- and by that I mean finished for a long time.

30 - 35k seats for decades, at least. It would be amazing.

Cashcleaner
12-04-2009, 11:39 AM
I honestly think they could put these two covers on for pretty cheap and it would at least double the level of atmosphere.

They aren't going to expand capacity for years - let's get a roof now.

We pushed hard for grass and got it....(thanks TFC)...now let's have a roof and we'll stop asking for things for at least 5 years!

I like the way you think, though would we include a roof over the North Stands, or wait until the next round of seating expansion?

Shway
12-04-2009, 11:42 AM
No -- canadian_bhoy. And I agree it looks good, but I would only want a roof on there now if there was the understanding that it wouldn't impede expansion later. If it would, then get the extra seats in before adding the roof.

And just think how much it would REALLY feel like home once we knew it was finished -- and by that I mean finished for a long time.

30 - 35k seats for decades, at least. It would be amazing.

I couldnt agree more, looking at the Tivoli Neu Stadion it just looks like the future of BMO to me.

Its perfect

egoodwin
12-04-2009, 03:06 PM
any word on the board of governor`s meeting on bmo field expansion today

TheRenter
12-04-2009, 05:24 PM
^there was an approval for a 1,249 seat expansion; whereby MLSEL, it stated, is to cover $1.9M

anyone know what effect, if any, this could have on the argos to bmo debacle?

rocker
12-04-2009, 07:56 PM
^there was an approval for a 1,249 seat expansion; whereby MLSEL, it stated, is to cover $1.9M


any official press release on it? I'd like to read more.

$1.9M for the stand eh? isn't that what the argos were worth a few years back? haha.

Super
12-04-2009, 08:27 PM
^there was an approval for a 1,249 seat expansion; whereby MLSEL, it stated, is to cover $1.9M

anyone know what effect, if any, this could have on the argos to bmo debacle?

If MLSE builds the north stand this off-season it will just add to the trouble and cost the Argos will face if they move into BMO. It's a great move by MLSE - perfect timing!

Auzzy
12-04-2009, 10:01 PM
Press release confirming approval of the north end expansion: http://www.explace.on.ca/media/press_releases/articles81.php

rocker
12-04-2009, 10:23 PM
Press release confirming approval of the north end expansion: http://www.explace.on.ca/media/press_releases/articles81.php

so the washroom upgrades are not upgrades to BMO washrooms but the Food Building's washrooms? weird. I wonder if they will have any washrooms/concessions directly underneath this new stand or if the Food Building will now take over that role with perhaps that walkway fenced off... otherwise washrooms will get more cramped than ever.

billyfly
12-04-2009, 10:30 PM
^this make sense. Instead of upgrading washrooms in BMO (its too hard on the footprint) fence off the corridor b/t BMO and the Food building and let people go there.

rocker
12-04-2009, 10:48 PM
the only problem comes when they can't fence off that area, like during the CNE or other major events. Then you'd have an extra 1200 people using the current facilities.

rocker
12-04-2009, 11:40 PM
details on expansion:

http://www.explace.on.ca/database/rte/number18BMO%20Filed%20Additiona%20Seating%20Report .ppt

http://www.explace.on.ca/database/rte/number18BMO%20Field%20Additional%20Seating%20Repor t%20_2_.pdf

I_AM_CANADIAN
12-04-2009, 11:54 PM
Won't it take people longer to get to and from the washrooms, though? I'd rather have seen them upgrade BMO itself.

Joe Kool
12-04-2009, 11:56 PM
Won't it take people longer to get to and from the washrooms, though? I'd rather have seen them upgrade BMO itself.

It's in the opposite side of the stadium from my seats so it won't do me any good. The time it would take to walk there and get my ticket scanned as I go in and out would be way longer than waiting in line at the washroom near my section. I guess they are hoping the 1249 people in the north end will take the short walk across.

rocker
12-05-2009, 12:11 AM
well they didn't scan at some points last year. the north gates were opened completely and you could walk freely over the food building... they put up fences on either side of that area outside the stadium.

Joe Kool
12-05-2009, 12:13 AM
^ Interesting...I didn't know that. Shows how much I am over there during gametime.

rocker
12-05-2009, 12:17 AM
i just remember this for the PR game, cuz that stand was taking up all the beer garden... so they had the north gates open and the carlsberg beer service stand outside the stadium in that walkway between the food building and the scoreboard.

rocker
12-05-2009, 12:19 AM
oh. and it's 1362 seats, because they are adding temp seats behind the north goal.

JuliquE
12-05-2009, 12:05 PM
Is it just me that thinks non-enclosed stadiums look terrible with a roof?! I would think that's a priority, anyway.. and I'm also not in a rush to block a lovely view of our signature skyline.

rocker
12-05-2009, 12:09 PM
http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/PhJD/bmoexpand3.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/PhJD/bmoexpand2.jpg

http://i26.photobucket.com/albums/c141/PhJD/bmoexpand1.jpg

I_AM_CANADIAN
12-05-2009, 12:21 PM
Hey, looks bigger than the temp. stand from last year, which can only be a good thing. If only they'd have just gone all the way and had it go down to pitch level, we'd be laughing...

rocker
12-05-2009, 12:24 PM
i notice that 60 of the seats or so are obstructed slightly.there are video boards on the roofs of the group sales suites, and people on either side about 3/4's up won't see the north corner flag on their side. oh well.

it's amazing that something so simple like that costs MLSE $2million... there aren't even concessions or washrooms beneath.

Red CB Toronto
12-05-2009, 05:00 PM
It looks good, but if you look at the pictures if looking like the lower half of the scoreboard is being blocked out, just a thought.

I think this is better than the one from last year because you enter from behind and not the front, which will allow for the patio to stay intact.

Those seats for the PR were $22 and for RM $125.

rocker
12-05-2009, 05:42 PM
the rendering of the stadium with the north end stand included makes it look like it blocks the scoreboard.. but the side drawing shows otherwise.

Cashcleaner
12-05-2009, 06:46 PM
Hey, looks bigger than the temp. stand from last year, which can only be a good thing. If only they'd have just gone all the way and had it go down to pitch level, we'd be laughing...

That's my only criticism about this new stand. I wonder how many hundreds more could they have fit in if the rows of seating went all the way down to the concrete bed. My guess is that the beer garden remains and the stands will sit above it.

canadian_bhoy
12-05-2009, 07:27 PM
I love going to BMO to watch TFC, but my god it's such a cheap tin can of a stadium.

Dirk Diggler
12-05-2009, 07:58 PM
I love going to BMO to watch TFC, but my god it's such a cheap tin can of a stadium.

I wish that our tin can stadium actually looked like this "tin can" stadium in New Zealand:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/6/10479332_fffd42c109.jpg?v=0

Westpac (Tin Can) Stadium - Wellington
http://www.flickr.com/photos/42033648@N00/10479332/

http://static.stuff.co.nz/1256700381/778/2955778.jpg
http://www.stuff.co.nz/dominion-post/sport/3007759/Cake-Tin-rated-NZs-best-sports-venue

Toronto Ruffrider
12-05-2009, 09:31 PM
^ Meh, I prefer the sightlines at BMO to what we would have at that oval.

Dirk Diggler
12-05-2009, 09:35 PM
I was referring more to the quality of the exterior facade than the shape of the pitch.

Toronto Ruffrider
12-05-2009, 10:24 PM
I was referring more to the quality of the exterior facade than the shape of the pitch.

Oh, well in that case I agree wholeheartedly. Our stadium hardly has a façade.

Blizzard
12-05-2009, 11:20 PM
That's my only criticism about this new stand. I wonder how many hundreds more could they have fit in if the rows of seating went all the way down to the concrete bed. My guess is that the beer garden remains and the stands will sit above it.

Yes. That's what PB said on It's Called Football earlier this week.

David_Oliveira
12-07-2009, 06:04 PM
According to my rep, the new stand will be kind of what C-Bus has with a bear garden underneath only better and would definitely NOT be a supporter's stand. Said things may change but that it was looking like it would NOT be a supporter's stand. I read it as "the new stand will be kind of what C-Bus has with a bear garden underneath only much more expensive."

billyfly
12-07-2009, 06:07 PM
Holy! A bear garden. Can a moat with alligators be far behind?

Always There
12-07-2009, 06:49 PM
Wow. Very cool. Thanks for posting the plans.

I think this is great. I really like the idea of the stands sitting above the beer garden. It will really give BMO a distinct look. It might not be a lot of people, but it really will help to give BMO a more complete feel. I thought it looked awesome last year with a lively stand behind the goalie. I think I'm in the minority, but I don't think BMO looks that bad in general.

I really think with a new capacity of close to 22 000, considering we were often a few hundred above 20 000 last year, BMO will be settled for a little while. Unfortunately I don't really see MLSE adding a roof if it doesn't benifit them financially.

However :drinking:, if there were to be a roof added, where would be the most likely place for it to go? I've always thought the East stand seemed the most temporary. It has the most potential for large growth, so I can't see a roof going over it unless there were some major expansion.

Thoughts?

Get In There
12-07-2009, 07:01 PM
Suggestion

Place a few video screens 8' up in the beer garden so there isn't a big push to be in the front and folks can still see/hear the game while down there.

B

torontocelt
12-07-2009, 07:45 PM
Holy! A bear garden. Can a moat with alligators be far behind?

f*ck drinking in there

egoodwin
12-07-2009, 08:52 PM
if they want to see the game, they'd go to their seat... if they want to watch on a tv in the beer garden, they shouldn't have even gone to the game... they may as well have just stayed home or watched at a pub

then again, I think the beer garden should be a ticketed area... all standing and general admission...

kodiakTFC
12-07-2009, 08:55 PM
Holy! A bear garden. Can a moat with alligators be far behind?

Away players will be terrified to come to BMO then!

billyfly
12-07-2009, 08:57 PM
I really think they are on to something.

Shway
12-07-2009, 09:15 PM
then again, I think the beer garden should be a ticketed area... all standing and general admission...


AGREEEED

egoodwin
12-07-2009, 09:23 PM
not only will it mean more people in the stadium, but since it's standing room only, the price, you'd figure, would be cheapest, and it would make people more inclined to go to their seats...

There is already a precedent for this... in year one, for the home game against Chicago, they had the regular beer garden, then had a standing room general admission area separated at the front of the beer garden...

Super
12-07-2009, 10:07 PM
then again, I think the beer garden should be a ticketed area... all standing and general admission...

What a wonderful idea! It's great on every possible level. Sure, some people won't like it - but it would bring more money to TFC, and more people into the stadium. Win/win!

billyfly
12-08-2009, 03:59 PM
If only we knew, we'd have a roof.

http://pages.interlog.com/~urbanism/grandstand.html

Blizzard
12-08-2009, 05:53 PM
If only we knew, we'd have a roof.

http://pages.interlog.com/~urbanism/grandstand.html (http://pages.interlog.com/%7Eurbanism/grandstand.html)

Do you post at Urban Toronto? I posted that link there yesterday.

Using the old grandstand as the base upon which to base a new soccer facility would have been an ideal situation despite the propped cantilever roof.

It's funny. So many in the 1980's and 90's said that the CNE was a horrible place for a stadium due to the cold winds off the lake etc ....

.... and what happens? As soon as we need a new soccer stadium, they put it right back on top of the old stadium's footprint stating that it is the ideal location.

(sigh) :picard:

billyfly
12-08-2009, 06:00 PM
Do you post at Urban Toronto? I posted that link there yesterday.

Using the old grandstand as the base upon which to base a new soccer facility would have been an ideal situation despite the propped cantilever roof.

It's funny. So many in the 1980's and 90's said that the CNE was a horrible place for a stadium due to the cold winds off the lake etc ....

.... and what happens? As soon as we need a new soccer stadium, they put it right back on top of the old stadium's footprint stating that it is the ideal location.

(sigh) :picard:

UT - Hell yeah. That was you. Cool.

canadian_bhoy
12-08-2009, 06:09 PM
As a whole, Exhibition stadium was kinda weird looking - but I loved the grandstand. Great look, great place to watch an event. Here's an architectual model of it

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/98/ArchitecturalModelOfExhibitionStadium_Aug25-05.jpg

billyfly
12-08-2009, 06:10 PM
Too bad...sigh.

deltox
12-08-2009, 06:14 PM
i always heard about "the winds" down by the lake.


i dont think we have issues like that at BMO....do we?

Toronto Ruffrider
12-08-2009, 06:17 PM
i always heard about "the winds" down by the lake.


i dont think we have issues like that at BMO....do we?

The home opener last season was pretty cold and windy. It looked like the flags around the east and south stands were going to be blown clean away.

deltox
12-08-2009, 06:18 PM
but i dont think its effected the play through.......right?

Batman
12-08-2009, 06:18 PM
I think the key was, it was a horrible stadium for BASEBALL.




Do you post at Urban Toronto? I posted that link there yesterday.

Using the old grandstand as the base upon which to base a new soccer facility would have been an ideal situation despite the propped cantilever roof.

It's funny. So many in the 1980's and 90's said that the CNE was a horrible place for a stadium due to the cold winds off the lake etc ....

.... and what happens? As soon as we need a new soccer stadium, they put it right back on top of the old stadium's footprint stating that it is the ideal location.

(sigh) :picard: