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ensco
03-23-2009, 06:34 PM
I'm conflicted about Guevara.

He's obviously a supreme talent, and he's incredibly disruptive. He took KC out of their game, they hate him so much. The KC bench were up in arms about the guy the entire game. He was a huge positive for us. I know that.

And yet....

He was flat out diving/embellishing all over the pitch, and not just late when we were killing the clock. He was almost as bad as Schelotto was at BMO last year.

(There is an idea being promoted on these boards that Guevara is not a diver but is some sort of brilliant strategic time waster. This argument is not working for me.)

The flip side is that his "disruptive" style backfires sometimes (remember the red card in a crucial situation against Dallas in August last year?).

We had a big problem with the referees last year. Call after call went against us. I'm worried that the presence of someone who plays this style could hurt us with the refs over the course of the season.

Then there's the fact that he's going to miss a huge number of games.

I do respect his enormous talent.

But I really don't know what to think about him.

Ron Manager
03-23-2009, 06:37 PM
To be honest, this is the Guevara we have seen all along for Hondouras. He gets under the skin of the opposition almost as much as he uses his skill to beat them. Like it or not, and I'm kinda with you on the diving thing, it's his style and he does it well.

egoodwin
03-23-2009, 06:55 PM
I'd rather turn my head on this, as I'd rather have someone like him on our team, instead of against us

loconet
03-23-2009, 06:57 PM
Agreed. Guevara is one of our most important players. Fundamental part of the midfield.

But yes, I'm also split about the choice of tactic. The truth is, it has (sadly) become part of the game. Everyone does it, and if you don't take part on the dance, you are left behind. It's as simple as that. For the sake of argument, look at the top 10 FIFA world players for 2008. Aside from Casillas, and maybe Kaka, they all embellish fouls regularly, specially the top 3. It's a necessary evil and Guevara knows it. Short of having them wear lie detectors, I'm not sure what can be done, I wish it was solved though.

Now, comparing the incident with Dallas and the overreacting of fouls is a bit of a stretch no? There is a difference between embellishing a foul and a straight punch to the opponent's face after physical provocation.

Jack
03-23-2009, 07:06 PM
He's a guy other teams hate. That makes me love him.

Plus my football mentality isn't all "holier-than-thou" when it comes to his playing style. Now we know how it feels to be on the other side of the coin.
(Of course I hate other players who do it, but when it's on my team, it's alright by me)

If he plays like that all season (the theatrics and the offensive output) I'd take two of him in a heartbeat!

wzhxvy
03-23-2009, 07:07 PM
I do not know about you guys, but I saw a different Geuvara in Game 1 than I saw last season. He was playing with a lot of passion. He played like that for Honduras but didnt for TFC this year. My guess is that he feels more of a connection with the team this year, and is giving it his all. I do not think he is a diver but he is a drama queen no question...every tackle, he flops like a fish or pretends he was shot in the back. All in all...I think he was very effective that game. If he keeps that up...we will be deadly.

Ossington Mental Youth
03-23-2009, 07:09 PM
I can see where the concern comes from but to be honest i think it works both ways and the reffing in this league is still shit that im still not to concerned. Im glad hes finally coming into his own and now people can stop with the Guevara is crap stuff

rocker
03-23-2009, 07:11 PM
it didn't help that on one of those tackles, the KC player seemed to step on him after stumbling away. (the tackle that was centerfield, on the pitching mound side of the field).

Lucky Strike
03-23-2009, 07:11 PM
Guevara is more of a embellisher rather than a diver like Schelotto. I don't know about you, but there's a distinct difference for me. In an ideal world of course we all would like to see that eliminated there's no question, but diving is worse than embellishing.

Am I making excuses? Probably seems like it, but I truly believe it, always have.

I guess the moral of the story is that Schelotto is pussy douchebag. :D

spezz44
03-23-2009, 07:12 PM
after watchin the tfc tv, thing and he said the defensive problem is a team one and not the back line(even though thats not the case), was the first time that he has shown to be a team player to me. However he is a great talent and an asset, i think he enjoys being on the team, so if he stays happy, who knows skys the limit.

MisterMacphisto
03-23-2009, 07:15 PM
I'm not down with the diving and simulation. Can't stand it in fact. :mad:

Hate it and embarrassed anytime I see one of our boys do it. (Which is not that often)

Real men like Jimmy don't dive. I want our boys to be real men with pride, and if we win, its with skill and ball control and finesse. Not because we dived like a baby and got an extra call.

Jack
03-23-2009, 07:17 PM
after watchin the tfc tv, thing and he said the defensive problem is a team one and not the back line(even though thats not the case), was the first time that he has shown to be a team player to me. However he is a great talent and an asset, i think he enjoys being on the team, so if he stays happy, who knows skys the limit.
Amado doesn't get enough credit for his contributions to the team.

I definitely saw a lot of frustration from him last season (which could be because he actually cares about winning?)

He seems happy to be with this group with such a good midfield. He's definitely better when he's playing with some passion and he was doing that on Saturday.

Also, I think his defensive contribution in the midfield is underrated and often overlooked. He can track back and win the ball which is also part of being a team player.

Yohan
03-23-2009, 07:17 PM
Guevara is more of a embellisher rather than a diver like Schelotto. I don't know about you, but there's a distinct difference for me. In an ideal world of course we all would like to see that eliminated there's no question, but diving is worse than embellishing.

Am I making excuses? Probably seems like it, but I truly believe it, always have.
Embellish is only slightly better than diving but still annoying like hell
I guess the moral of the story is that Schelotto is pussy douchebag. :D
Thank you Captain Obvious. Any other absolute truths of the universe you'd like to share with us? ;) :D

rocker
03-23-2009, 07:18 PM
if the opposition stops diving, we should too.

but they don't, so we shouldn't. Nobody remembers the dives when you win.

Nuvinho
03-23-2009, 07:18 PM
I am cheering against Honduras......next 2 games are against Mexico and USA. If they lose those 2, I hope they are way out of contention, that we can have Guevara back for good. I am selfish!!!

nfitz
03-23-2009, 07:20 PM
It's almost like he's been given a green light to dive, after a red one last season. All the rolling around was very similiar to his performance in the WCQ's against Canada - where it was very successful.

This seems to be his style - and he is good at it. And if this is what gives him the spark to be a great player, then we might be better to hold our noses and go with it, then put him into a box he doesn't fit.

He may be a diving bastard - but he's OUR diving bastard! :)

GBV
03-23-2009, 07:22 PM
I'm not down with the diving and simulation. Can't stand it in fact. :mad:

Hate it and embarrassed anytime I see one of our boys do it. (Which is not that often)

Real men like Jimmy don't dive. I want our boys to be real men with pride, and if we win, its with skill and ball control and finesse. Not because we dived like a baby and got an extra call.

i'm with you. and it's high time "the game" did something about it.
review video tapes and issue suspensions. really, it's not that hard.

the game should also do something about time-wasting. play shorter halves with stop time. but that's another thread for another day . . .

djking2
03-23-2009, 07:25 PM
Hey everybody dives. Dero went down easy Saturday, Even Brennan had a classic toward the end of last year, he made a hell of a run at the end of a game and got almost by the defender and ran out of gas, so he gave it a shot and went down. We also have a thread about tactically using up the clock (delaying the game). I'm sure you'd never suggest a player should stop if he's in offside but doesn't get a flag.

Guevara probably doesn't get the respect he deserves. No biggy but I think the guy deserved his shot at the hat trick Saturday. Even Carver backed Dero taking it so I know I'm wrong but there it is.

Ensco I wouldn't say he was diving all over the place Saturday but I agree with most of what you've said. Expecially to being conflicted about it. On the other hand I'm kinda like that player in offside, he's on my team, he's got great skills so I'm going for it.

Fushida
03-23-2009, 07:26 PM
Might just be the beer goggles but I thought he didn't even dive all that much in the KC game. Anyone notice how he seemed as if he was about to KILL the ref every time a call was made? I was quite surprised he didn't get carded that game :rolleyes:

Generally speaking, I chuckle every time I see Amado on the ground rolling just to get up and rub his toe rigorously before getting back into the thick of things. But as long as he's doing us more good than harm, a little dive here or there won't hurt :canada:

Eastend
03-23-2009, 07:39 PM
A dive is dive, there's a rule in place and it should be called....if someone dives on my team I would call him on it.


<< my opinion.

spezz44
03-23-2009, 07:39 PM
Jack, i agree with what you saw i think tha tsome of his frustration perhaps i precived as selfish but ur prob right, i think he is easily one of our best offensive weapons and he makes major contributions on the feild. it will be a shame if we loose him next year.

trail
03-23-2009, 07:47 PM
I for one like him, he does get some calls for us and the other times he's fun to watch rolling on the ground. Have to agree if other teams did not do it, I would not want to see our guys doing . However when will all the other want to be stop?!?!

Oldtimer
03-23-2009, 07:52 PM
I distinguish between embellishment and diving. Diving is trying to get an innocent party (the other player) punished. Embellishment is making sure that the referee notices you being wronged.

Given how poor MLS refs are, you need to give them all the help you can. Annoying? Yes. Wrong? No.

I actually don't think Amado dives very much, but he does embellish.

Speaking of dives, the most embarrassing one by a TFC player was one game in '07 when Lombardo hit the turf.

Lucky Strike
03-23-2009, 07:52 PM
Thank you Captain Obvious. Any other absolute truths of the universe you'd like to share with us? ;) :D

I would in fact. :rolleyes:

Revelation the first: The sky is blue.
2nd Universal Truth: TFC will make the playoffs.
3rd Constant: Schelotto, Donovan and Blanco are easily the biggest assholes of the MLS.

Lastly, my title is Supreme Overlord of the Universe. Failing that, Admiral Obvious will do nicely. :D

VoxPopuliCosmicum
03-23-2009, 08:42 PM
it didn't help that on one of those tackles, the KC player seemed to step on him after stumbling away. (the tackle that was centerfield, on the pitching mound side of the field).

Actually, if we're talking about the same play, what happened was that Guevara held the guy's arm close to his chest while lying on the turf after having been shot with a high-powered rifle. Then, when the guy tried to pull his own arm away, Amado made it look like the guy was choking/suplexing him.

It's ugly footy, to be sure, but it wins.

RealG-TFC
03-23-2009, 08:50 PM
He may be a diving bastard - but he's OUR diving bastard! :)

Q F T

rocker
03-23-2009, 08:53 PM
ok, so Kansas City played totally clean?
None of their tackles on amado were in the wrong?

If people think he fakes, then how would you know if he was really hurt? ;)

personally I don't give these questions much consideration.
Do whatever it takes to win.
Do Crew fans care that Schellotto dived his way to an MLS Cup?
Nope.. neither would we if Amado dived his way to an MLS Cup.

OneLoveOneEric
03-23-2009, 09:02 PM
One of our best players. Probably only behind DeRo.
We're a far worse team without him.

AL-MO
03-23-2009, 09:05 PM
One of our best players. Probably only behind DeRo.
We're a far worse team without him.

Agreed. And even then I think you could argue either way.

Chevy
03-23-2009, 09:17 PM
I honestly don't think he was that bad.

He is arguably our slightest player, so it's not a stretch that he does get hurt more often than the average player. Does he embelish and waste a little time? Sure, but most of the time he went down as a result of a legit foul.

McBrace
03-23-2009, 09:25 PM
I honestly don't think he was that bad.

He is arguably our slightest player, so it's not a stretch that he does get hurt more often than the average player. Does he embelish and waste a little time? Sure, but most of the time he went down as a result of a legit foul.


With that said, it will create space for him in the danger zone if the opposing D know he's a bit light on his feet. ;) The bullshit after the call is I think is what gets to most...:noidea:..

james
03-23-2009, 09:43 PM
I dont care if he is on are team or against us, anyone who dives is a disgrace to soccer and guevara did it at least 2 or 3 times :mad:. It happens way to much world wide and there is no need for it in this game. It is the one thing i cant stand about soccer. I believe refs need to get more strict on diving. I think any player who dives deserves a yellow card, do it twice get a red card!

james
03-23-2009, 09:47 PM
ok, so Kansas City played totally clean?
None of their tackles on amado were in the wrong?

If people think he fakes, then how would you know if he was really hurt? ;)

personally I don't give these questions much consideration.
Do whatever it takes to win.
Do Crew fans care that Schellotto dived his way to an MLS Cup?
Nope.. neither would we if Amado dived his way to an MLS Cup.

ya by saying things like who cares if he dives, as long as we win. Thats bull shit. Diving is for pussies, play like a man and win the game with your soccer skills, not your diving skills.

Diving is also cheatting, its like saying who cares if the match was fixed, as long as we win. Id rather lose honestly then win by cheatting.

Yohan
03-23-2009, 09:53 PM
ya by saying things like who cares if he dives, as long as we win. Thats bull shit. Diving is for pussies, play like a man and win the game with your soccer skills, not your diving skills.

Diving is also cheatting, its like saying who cares if the match was fixed, as long as we win. Id rather lose honestly then win by cheatting.
exactly.

i'd rather have us take the moral high ground

don't get me wrong. i appreciate everything guevara does for the team, except for the being a bit of diving wanker part

Pachuco
03-23-2009, 10:01 PM
ya by saying things like who cares if he dives, as long as we win. Thats bull shit. Diving is for pussies, play like a man and win the game with your soccer skills, not your diving skills.

Diving is also cheatting, its like saying who cares if the match was fixed, as long as we win. Id rather lose honestly then win by cheatting.

James, I would challenge you to find me one dive from Guevara in yesterday's match (if you have access to match center). Show me ONE play where he flops in the air with no contact from the other player. You won't find it, it didn't happen. He might cry like a baby after he's nailed from behind, that ain't diving, and that sure as hell ain't cheating either. The dumbass players who keep hacking at him from behind when he's shielding the ball deserve to get a foul against them.

Other methods of wasting time in Soccer:

1. Goalies taking their time to take a goal kick
2. Running the ball into the corner and kicking it off a player
3. substitution with no time left in the game, player walks off the field while he looks pretty and claps at the fans
4. Players taking their time to take a free kick
5. Players standing in front of the ball on a free kick

Need I say more? Wasting time is all part of the beautifull game of football. Teams do this all the time when they are winning, get used to it cause it's not going anywhere.

FluSH
03-23-2009, 10:05 PM
holy fuck... the man scored TWO goals... could've had a hat trick if he took the PK... and we are fucking talking about diving?

What in the world does he need to do...

FluSH
03-23-2009, 10:09 PM
...on second thought let's trade Amado for a bruiser who won't score! Will that make everyone happy? Cause at least he won't be going down...

Man if you score two goals for my team... I could care less if you kick someone in the balls...

Yohan
03-23-2009, 10:11 PM
I suppose we have to abandon objectivity when supporting your team?

I mean, I'm all for supporting TFC, but let's call spade a spade. The game doesn't need antics like Schelotto or Guevara puts on

Jack
03-23-2009, 10:35 PM
I actually really liked the way Amado played.

He played with fire and passion. He played like he cared. That's why he was doing that stuff...he wanted to win. Badly.

It was great.

H Bomb
03-23-2009, 10:46 PM
holy fuck... the man scored TWO goals... could've had a hat trick if he took the PK... and we are fucking talking about diving?

What in the world does he need to do...


...stop diving :D

TFC07
03-23-2009, 10:48 PM
Who cares if he dives or not. He should keep doing it until he gets punished by refs and/or league.

Ossington Mental Youth
03-23-2009, 11:23 PM
James, I would challenge you to find me one dive from Guevara in yesterday's match (if you have access to match center). Show me ONE play where he flops in the air with no contact from the other player. You won't find it, it didn't happen. He might cry like a baby after he's nailed from behind, that ain't diving, and that sure as hell ain't cheating either. The dumbass players who keep hacking at him from behind when he's shielding the ball deserve to get a foul against them.

Other methods of wasting time in Soccer:

1. Goalies taking their time to take a goal kick
2. Running the ball into the corner and kicking it off a player
3. substitution with no time left in the game, player walks off the field while he looks pretty and claps at the fans
4. Players taking their time to take a free kick
5. Players standing in front of the ball on a free kick

Need I say more? Wasting time is all part of the beautifull game of football. Teams do this all the time when they are winning, get used to it cause it's not going anywhere.

yep well said

nfitz
03-23-2009, 11:25 PM
Who cares if he dives or not. He should keep doing it until he gets punished by refs and/or league.In the past I've disagreed with this - but after all the Canada games where time-after-time Canada plays a clean game, and losed a close match because of the endless diving ... maybe we should just conclude that we've had the wrong end of the stick, and do what has to be done. If the refs actually come to their senses and start calling it consistently ... well then the problem will fix itself.

In the meantime, Guevara is a joy to watch!

Brooker
03-23-2009, 11:27 PM
We had a big problem with the referees last year. Call after call went against us. I'm worried that the presence of someone who plays this style could hurt us with the refs over the course of the season.

sure didnt hurt Columbus.

ginkster88
03-23-2009, 11:31 PM
I loved see a Guevara who cared about pushing his team over the top. I didn't have a problem with a lot of his fouls; maybe that's just because he's so good at masking it, but I don't know. I liked seeing him really play out there.

dupont
03-24-2009, 12:32 AM
Guevara is one of our best players. I cheer loudly for him every game! uh.. what was the topic again?

Cashcleaner
03-24-2009, 12:36 AM
Guevara is maddening to watch, I'll agree. I can't support some of his cheesy behaviour on the pitch, but I do know how easily he gives headaches to the opposition.

I think it was Brennan himself who mentioned in '07 that; "diving isn't really a Canadian thing," and that the fans here don't tend to accept it as much as those in other nations do. Frankly, I hope its an attitude that becomes commonplace throughout the league.

The thing about Guevara is that he doesn't need to pull off any of these dirty stunts - he's got more than enough talent as it is. He's not my favourite player on the team and to be honest, I think the main reason for that has to do with his antics.

Stoda
03-24-2009, 01:09 AM
I honestly don't think he was that bad.

He is arguably our slightest player, so it's not a stretch that he does get hurt more often than the average player. Does he embelish and waste a little time? Sure, but most of the time he went down as a result of a legit foul.

a diver's a diver, no matter how small :hat:

twistedchinaman
03-24-2009, 01:34 AM
Amado is Amado, and he bagged us a big three ticks on the point clock. If the other teams want to hate him then that's their damned perogative; as long as they get burned then I'm happy.

Dunc
03-24-2009, 01:54 AM
I love Amado's skill... but his antics disgust me sometimes. tbh I was too drunk to really notice much for the KC match but I won't condone his diving and I'm ashamed to have a TFC player pulling his shit if he was diving.

Mikey
03-24-2009, 06:47 AM
Im more pissed off that no one on the pitch had the brains to let him take the penalty and probably mark our start to 2009 with the first ever player hat-trick for TFC.

I assumed he stayed on the floor so long to avoid the bends, caused by coming up to quickly.....

trane
03-24-2009, 06:55 AM
He helps us win, and he has not been distruptive to the team. He cares if we win or loss. It is not up to me to officiate diving. I leave that up to the refs.

scooter
03-24-2009, 07:48 AM
do not like diving at all maybe he could tone it down a bit

but he is here to play and seems way more motivated than he was last year hopefully its because he is excited at all the new additions to the team and feels we have a chance to be a winner this year

Shaughno
03-24-2009, 07:51 AM
How about this?

Instead of cutting up our players at every opportunity, we fucking praise them once in a while when they do something good... like score two goals to ensure we get our first fucking win, and road win, of the season?

He played like a beast out there. I think I saw one actual dive the whole game from Guevara. He was clipped, tripped and had his jersey pulled more often than not. He embellished the fouls, no doubt, but that's the name of the game when shit isn't getting called your way. He played with the passion I've seen him play with Honduras, so let's just be happy that he seems to be still enjoying himself now that he's got a proper midfield to work with.

Basically, STOP BITCHING ABOUT OUR (arguably) BEST FUCKING PLAYER!


As an aside, DeRo 'dove' more than Guevara did in the game against KC.

SanStarko
03-24-2009, 08:06 AM
Players dive, that's not going to change. FIFA had their chance to make an example of divers and do something about it when Rivaldo went down like he'd been shot after the ball hit his thigh against Turkey at World Cup 2002. It was on the biggest stage and millions saw it all around the world, they could have made an example of him and made it clear that it wasn't going to be accepted. Instead all they did was fine him an amount that worked out as half a days wages, big deal.

I'll quite happily have Guevara diving about for us if it helps the team win. He brings a lot to the team, even more this year considering how motivated he seems. Much rather him playing for us than against us.

Pachuco
03-24-2009, 08:28 AM
Oh, and when you see Freddy Montero's antics at BMO field you will be quite happy we have someone who can do it right back.

Shaughno
03-24-2009, 08:30 AM
Oh, and when you see Freddy Montero's antics at BMO field you will be quite happy we have someone who can do it right back.


Exactly! Fight fire with fire, even if you don't agree with it. I'd much rather have Guevara then play against him. Top notch player in this league, it doesn't get much better.

bdiddy
03-24-2009, 08:42 AM
When your running and playing at full-speed, it doesn't take much to knock down players. And when we have the quality referees that we do in this league, sometimes you need to embellish the fall a bit to ensure that they can see it and don't miss it because they are watching birds fly.

GingerNinja
03-24-2009, 08:52 AM
How about this?

Instead of cutting up our players at every opportunity, we fucking praise them once in a while when they do something good... like score two goals to ensure we get our first fucking win, and road win, of the season?

He played like a beast out there. I think I saw one actual dive the whole game from Guevara. He was clipped, tripped and had his jersey pulled more often than not. He embellished the fouls, no doubt, but that's the name of the game when shit isn't getting called your way. He played with the passion I've seen him play with Honduras, so let's just be happy that he seems to be still enjoying himself now that he's got a proper midfield to work with.

Basically, STOP BITCHING ABOUT OUR (arguably) BEST FUCKING PLAYER!


As an aside, DeRo 'dove' more than Guevara did in the game against KC.

Shaughno, you're the greatest!! :D

trane
03-24-2009, 08:56 AM
How about this?

Instead of cutting up our players at every opportunity, we fucking praise them once in a while when they do something good... like score two goals to ensure we get our first fucking win, and road win, of the season?

He played like a beast out there. I think I saw one actual dive the whole game from Guevara. He was clipped, tripped and had his jersey pulled more often than not. He embellished the fouls, no doubt, but that's the name of the game when shit isn't getting called your way. He played with the passion I've seen him play with Honduras, so let's just be happy that he seems to be still enjoying himself now that he's got a proper midfield to work with.

Basically, STOP BITCHING ABOUT OUR (arguably) BEST FUCKING PLAYER!


As an aside, DeRo 'dove' more than Guevara did in the game against KC.

Exactamundo. ( No that is not Italian or Spanish)

brad
03-24-2009, 08:58 AM
Im more pissed off that no one on the pitch had the brains to let him take the penalty and probably mark our start to 2009 with the first ever player hat-trick for TFC.


He missed two last year, so not having him be the default penalty taker made sense. And the penalty taker was decided by Carver, not the players on the pitch (Carver said this in his post-game interview)

Jack
03-24-2009, 09:01 AM
The thing that a lot of people miss is the cultural difference.

The attitude toward what Amado does in Latin America is not that he's cheating, but rather using all the tools at his disposal to help the team win. The referee is the one at fault for allowing himself to be fooled by the crafty player.

It comes down to the fact that, a lot of the time, authority figures are (or were) corrupt and the common people had to fool them or outsmart them in order to get ahead.

In the case of football, the authority figure is the referee and the player is representing the common people fooling the bumbling authority figure by putting one over on him. People can get behind that because so often they are the victims of abuse of power. Look at the football cultures where this behaviour is more acceptable (and even there, full out diving is condemned, but the embellishment and the other tactics Amado uses are not as much). There is a common thread in many of those countries, which is a history of corruption in authority figures and abuse of power (Argentina, Mexico, Italy etc.). Corrupt governments, corrupt police and so on.

It's why such tales as Zorro, Robin Hood and others are so popular.

When you judge someone's actions through your own cultural lense, things can often be distorted. There are no absolute points of view. The culture behind the behaviour is very important in understanding why the behaviour takes place.

*I should state that a lot of the observations made here are from personal experience as well as some cultural anthropology courses I took in a past life when I actually went to class at university :D

MisterMacphisto
03-24-2009, 09:07 AM
Very interesting point of view Jack.

trane
03-24-2009, 09:11 AM
In Italy it is seen as part of the game to gain any advantage you can do win. That is what Amado does. I am not for it or against it, it is just part of his play. It is not an indication of a lack of moral character, just an indication that he wants to get any advantage that he can on the field. I am of with that, on the other hand if the officials card him when appropriate it is within their right as well.

Pachuco
03-24-2009, 09:12 AM
The thing that a lot of people miss is the cultural difference.

The attitude toward what Amado does in Latin America is not that he's cheating, but rather using all the tools at his disposal to help the team win. The referee is the one at fault for allowing himself to be fooled by the crafty player.

It comes down to the fact that, a lot of the time, authority figures are (or were) corrupt and the common people had to fool them or outsmart them in order to get ahead.

In the case of football, the authority figure is the referee and the player is representing the common people fooling the bumbling authority figure by putting one over on him. People can get behind that because so often they are the victims of abuse of power. Look at the football cultures where this behaviour is more acceptable (and even there, full out diving is condemned, but the embellishment and the other tactics Amado uses are not as much). There is a common thread in many of those countries, which is a history of corruption in authority figures and abuse of power (Argentina, Mexico, Italy etc.). Corrupt governments, corrupt police and so on.

It's why such tales as Zorro, Robin Hood and others are so popular.

When you judge someone's actions through your own cultural lense, things can often be distorted. There are no absolute points of view. The culture behind the behaviour is very important in understanding why the behaviour takes place.

*I should state that a lot of the observations made here are from personal experience as well as some cultural anthropology courses I took in a past life when I actually went to class at university :D

That's actually an interesting way to look at it. Hadn't thought about that.

I'll add one more thing, Guevara's antics are more then accepted on the world stage. FIFA has a chance every 4 years to make an example and they never do. They've tightened down on the diving itself, to the point where Ronaldo at ManU is getting called for all kinds of dives simply because of his reputation (and also some because he dives ;)), but they've never tightened down on the antics. As someone else mentioned, the Rivaldo incident is classic proof.

Blazer
03-24-2009, 09:19 AM
I'd rather turn my head on this, as I'd rather have someone like him on our team, instead of against us

Unfortunately you’re right. You hate having bullshit calls that guys like Guevara almost effortlessly create for themselves however it’s almost bittersweet when you have one called in your favour. In the case of MLS and most organizations around the world, refs are going to (for lack of a better word and please pardon the pun) “fall” for these theatrics so you’d better prepare yourself accordingly. It’s sad to think but it’s part of the game. Ask the Australian national team after their game with Italy in the last World Cup – they know it all too well.

Lucky Strike
03-24-2009, 09:23 AM
I dont care if he is on are team or against us, anyone who dives is a disgrace to soccer and guevara did it at least 2 or 3 times :mad:. It happens way to much world wide and there is no need for it in this game. It is the one thing i cant stand about soccer. I believe refs need to get more strict on diving. I think any player who dives deserves a yellow card, do it twice get a red card!

Not to hijack the thread but the one thing I hate more than diving (Guevara is more of an embellisher rather than diver, as I've said before), is when players try to call the game themselves, raising their arms when the ball goes into touch or to point out to the referee that a player was offiside. And when players "call" offiside, they stop playing because of it! Don't worry about it, let the referee call the game, and just play.

The same goes for arguing calls and getting in the face of the referee. When I was younger and didn't follow football, I came across a newspaper poll asking in which sport the officials endure the biggest
abuse.

I automatically voted for baseball given how umpires have to deal with upset managers disputing calls getting in their face (they turn their caps around to get closer to the umpire’s face to yell at him – making physical contact is an automatic ejection, even with the bill of your cap), kicking dust on their feet, throwing bases/chairs/bats/buckets of balls, etc. One nut even did some sort of army demonstration where he threw the chalk bag at the umpire as if it were a grenade!

Anyway, I follow football now and I’m no longer surprised that soccer (as football was called in this North American paper) won out. Even putting riots aside, the abuse they have to take is enormous, and that is the biggest problem in football, rather than diving, at least speaking for myself.

Anyway, back to topic... :D

trane
03-24-2009, 09:30 AM
^ I agree that players shuold be carded more often for arguing with refs to often and too much. Disrespect toward the officials needs to be address in order to control the game.

Dunc
03-24-2009, 10:10 AM
^ I agree that players shuold be carded more often for arguing with refs to often and too much. Disrespect toward the officials needs to be address in order to control the game.

This I find is a huge problem in the MLS, the refs don't stick up for themselves and when tehy do it is unpredictable.

I remember last season some refs just allowed themselves to be walked all over. It seemed every time we had a free kick awarded, the ref didn't even bother trying to make the other team give us ten yards. The opponents would rush right at the kick taker long before the kick was taken because they knew the ref wouldn't have the balls to call it back.

SoccMan
03-24-2009, 10:13 AM
Are you guys bloody joking, like it has been said already the guy scored two bloody goals was one of the main reasons we won the damn game and I come on this site and what do I see three pages of crap about him diving instead of what a great game he had for us. If you don't like him either go support another team or stop watching the games and go back to watching hockey or baseball or whatever most of you out here were following before TFC was born.

Dunc
03-24-2009, 10:17 AM
Are you guys bloody joking, like it has been said already the guy scored two bloody goals was one of the main reasons we won the damn game and I come on this site and what do I see three pages of crap about him diving instead of what a great game he had for us. If you don't like him either go support another team or stop watching the games and go back to watching hockey or baseball or whatever most of you out here were following before TFC was born.

If we see our player diving and we don't like it, we're perfectly within our rights to criticise him for it, I don't really fucking care if you want to see it or not. I'll keep supporting TFC, thanks. Scoring goals doesn't make you immune from criticism.

Nobody is denying he's a great player. Right now what is going on in this thread is a discussion over whether his questionable tactics are right or not. There's plenty of shit all over the board about how he played a great match for us. You're free to go read that it you don't like this discussion.

trane
03-24-2009, 10:23 AM
This I find is a huge problem in the MLS, the refs don't stick up for themselves and when tehy do it is unpredictable.

I remember last season some refs just allowed themselves to be walked all over. It seemed every time we had a free kick awarded, the ref didn't even bother trying to make the other team give us ten yards. The opponents would rush right at the kick taker long before the kick was taken because they knew the ref wouldn't have the balls to call it back.


My stance in regard to diving is neutral, but what I do not like is seeing the ref loosing control of the game that is a big problem for me. Sometimes it includes giving out cards for diving and mouthing off.

H Bomb
03-24-2009, 10:26 AM
Are you guys bloody joking, like it has been said already the guy scored two bloody goals was one of the main reasons we won the damn game and I come on this site and what do I see three pages of crap about him diving instead of what a great game he had for us. If you don't like him either go support another team or stop watching the games and go back to watching hockey or baseball or whatever most of you out here were following before TFC was born.

actually most of the three pages has been people bitching that people are bitching about our hero Amado....but thanks for the well thought out "Love it of leave it" response.

Most of the people here know exactly what Amado gives this team. He's one of our best players, who moves forward and adds huge amounts of quality to our attack. He also seems like a nice man. Is this enough of a disclaimer to not like cheating in football? seriously, thanks for the two goals, keep up the good work, stop embellishing. No one wants to kick him off the team. Jack right about cultural differences, but we play in Toronto, where cheating is frowned upon, and that's all it is. It may be mild, it may help us, but cheating isn't a positive thing.

Shaughno
03-24-2009, 10:40 AM
actually most of the three pages has been people bitching that people are bitching about our hero Amado....but thanks for the well thought out "Love it of leave it" response.

Most of the people here know exactly what Amado gives this team. He's one of our best players, who moves forward and adds huge amounts of quality to our attack. He also seems like a nice man. Is this enough of a disclaimer to not like cheating in football? seriously, thanks for the two goals, keep up the good work, stop embellishing. No one wants to kick him off the team. Jack right about cultural differences, but we play in Toronto, where cheating is frowned upon, and that's all it is. It may be mild, it may help us, but cheating isn't a positive thing.


Just to play devils advocate, how come nobody bitches about DeRo or Brennan diving or embellishing? DeRo was just as active in that exact same game with his embellishments.

H Bomb
03-24-2009, 10:42 AM
i really didn't see this diving from Dero. I watched the game twice and can't remember him being on the ground....so hook me up with some references to when that shit happened and I'll watch it, and then disagree with it ;)

I'm also using the word dive when I mean embellish...I dont think Amado dove, he just embellished the afters.

Shaughno
03-24-2009, 10:43 AM
Just going from what I saw while I was in the stands, there was plenty of embellishing from DeRo. Not diving, but throwing his hands up at any hint of contact.

Dunc
03-24-2009, 10:43 AM
Just to play devils advocate, how come nobody bitches about DeRo or Brennan diving or embellishing? DeRo was just as active in that exact same game with his embellishments.

tbf that's got nothing to do with bitching about Guevara. Anyone is free to bitch about DeRo or Brennan, I don't think anyone is stopping them. The fact that we haven't been bitching about DeRo or Brennan doesn't detract from the criticism of Guevara.

rocker
03-24-2009, 10:47 AM
tbf that's got nothing to do with bitching about Guevara. Anyone is free to bitch about DeRo or Brennan, I don't think anyone is stopping them. The fact that we haven't been bitching about DeRo or Brennan doesn't detract from the criticism of Guevara.

but people choose to focus on Amado for some strange reason... why is that?
Canadian boys get a free pass maybe?

Shaughno
03-24-2009, 10:48 AM
tbf that's got nothing to do with bitching about Guevara. Anyone is free to bitch about DeRo or Brennan, I don't think anyone is stopping them. The fact that we haven't been bitching about DeRo or Brennan doesn't detract from the criticism of Guevara.


To be fair, I'm free to post my opinion in any thread on this board am I not? Stop being a dick.

My post is as valid as anyone's as is the point contained in said post. People have bitched about Guevara since he's been here, warranted or not, yet some players seem to get away scot free because they are Canadian, captain, favourites, etc. My point is, if you're going to bitch about a certain player diving or embellishing, all other players who do the same, should receive the same criticism. In fact, Dichio is a great embellisher at times, yet nobody ever mentions him. ;)

trane
03-24-2009, 10:50 AM
^ Dichio mostly embellishes his speed.

Still Kicking
03-24-2009, 10:50 AM
Put me in the camp of Amado admirers. In my book a diver is someone who goes down without contact. Saturday Amado was playing to "draw" the contact. Jewsbury picked up a yellow card because of Amado's positional play, he had his back to Jewsbury, faked left and then after the lunging tackle came through his legs he turned to the right. Was Guevara a "diver" or was Jewsbury deked out of position.
The second half situation with Arnaud was harder to determine, Guevara was running fast and had put the ball beyond Arnaud and was jumping. Contact or not, Arnaud should keep his hands to himself. Pulling a player up by the shoulders...if a TFC player does that to Schelotto this Saturday do you think the card will stay in the pocket ??

Dunc
03-24-2009, 10:53 AM
To be fair, I'm free to post my opinion in any thread on this board am I not? Stop being a dick.

My post is as valid as anyone's as is the point contained in said post. People have bitched about Guevara since he's been here, warranted or not, yet some players seem to get away scot free because they are Canadian, captain, favourites, etc. My point is, if you're going to bitch about a certain player diving or embellishing, all other players who do the same, should receive the same criticism. In fact, Dichio is a great embellisher at times, yet nobody ever mentions him. ;)

fair enough but you didn't really have to call me a dick, as I wasn't being one.

I think the issue is less embellishing than actual simulation. I haven't seen Dichio or Brennan or DeRO actually simulating. Guevara arguably goes beyond embellishing.

Shaughno
03-24-2009, 10:53 AM
^ Dichio mostly embellishes his speed.

True, :lol: but as soon as someone puts their hands on Dichio's shoulders he's quick to look at the ref. ;)

Shaughno
03-24-2009, 10:57 AM
If we see our player diving and we don't like it, we're perfectly within our rights to criticise him for it, I don't really fucking care if you want to see it or not. I'll keep supporting TFC, thanks. Scoring goals doesn't make you immune from criticism.

Nobody is denying he's a great player. Right now what is going on in this thread is a discussion over whether his questionable tactics are right or not. There's plenty of shit all over the board about how he played a great match for us. You're free to go read that it you don't like this discussion.


tbf that's got nothing to do with bitching about Guevara. Anyone is free to bitch about DeRo or Brennan, I don't think anyone is stopping them. The fact that we haven't been bitching about DeRo or Brennan doesn't detract from the criticism of Guevara.


fair enough but you didn't really have to call me a dick, as I wasn't being one.

I think the issue is less embellishing than actual simulation. I haven't seen Dichio or Brennan or DeRO actually simulating. Guevara arguably goes beyond embellishing.

My bad then, it seemed like it from the tone of your posts.

Guevara will dive, and has dove. The majority of what he does is after contact though. Compare him to Schelletto and Guevara looks like a saint.

Dunc
03-24-2009, 11:04 AM
My bad then, it seemed like it from the tone of your posts.

Guevara will dive, and has dove. The majority of what he does is after contact though. Compare him to Schelletto and Guevara looks like a saint.

that first post is the only one where I was remotely hostile and it was in response to the guy that told anyone criticising Guevara to go back to hockey, which deserved any hostility it got.

So what you're saying, then, is that Guevara's not that bad because he's not as bad as GBS. I'll admit that I might be a bit prejudiced against Guevara, in all honesty he was one of my most hated players before he came to Toronto. But really I think I've given him the benefit of the doubt since he's come here and I've noticed a marked improvement, but at times I still see that player whose antics I can't stand. You just said yourself that he dives and will dive.

trane
03-24-2009, 11:04 AM
^ Schelletto is just too much, too blatant, he keeps it on even if he is not getting the calls, and then he bitches and wants to be taken out of the game, like the cry baby he is. Diving can be a problem for you own team, when it is way over the top like he can be. The refs tend to start going against you and your team mates.

VoxPopuliCosmicum
03-24-2009, 11:13 AM
Put me in the camp of Amado admirers. In my book a diver is someone who goes down without contact. Saturday Amado was playing to "draw" the contact. Jewsbury picked up a yellow card because of Amado's positional play, he had his back to Jewsbury, faked left and then after the lunging tackle came through his legs he turned to the right. Was Guevara a "diver" or was Jewsbury deked out of position.
The second half situation with Arnaud was harder to determine, Guevara was running fast and had put the ball beyond Arnaud and was jumping. Contact or not, Arnaud should keep his hands to himself. Pulling a player up by the shoulders...if a TFC player does that to Schelotto this Saturday do you think the card will stay in the pocket ??

Except Arnaud was trying to keep his hands to himself while Guevara was the one who grabbed Arnaud's arm to make it look like Arnaud was doing the grabbing. It's pretty clear on the replay.

Again, FWIW, I'll agree with those who have said of Guevara, like FDR said of Nicaraguan dictator Somoza: "He may be a sonofabitch, but he's our sonofabitch."

ensco
03-24-2009, 11:14 AM
As the guy who started this, I'd just like to point out that I think Amado is the engine room, and we have a big hole in that role if he's not there.

I kinda sorta understand the cultural comments, but I'd point out that there are many Latin Americans excelling in the Bundesliga, where the culture of diving/embellishing is not tolerated, and there are many Latin Americans excelling in La Liga and Serie A, where it is tolerated. It's the league and its referees, not the players, who set the tone.

Also the fact that he scored two goals is meaningless. Brennan actually had a weak game, but does the fact that he scored make him immune from criticism?

gtaguy
03-24-2009, 11:56 AM
I think its up to the linesmen and the referee to determine if the players antics have gone too far.. I don't recall seeing anyone from KC complaining about him overdoing it. Its great for us becuase hes on our team but when your the opposition he annoys and that what hes looking for. How many times do i recall last year wanting to kill schelotto for his annoying antics..
lets be happy that most of the time there is only one of these types of players in our mls teams.. Just imagine having all eleven players acting and throwing themselves on the ground to try to get a call in thier favor.. central and south american soccer has alot of this.. Now thats annoying to watch...

ensco
03-24-2009, 12:01 PM
I don't recall seeing anyone from KC complaining about him overdoing it.

I'm guessing you weren't at the game. Anyone who was there will tell you that the KC players, bench and fans, by the second half, were going berserk over Guevara.

Jack
03-24-2009, 12:03 PM
That's good.

When they are more worried about him than about the match, he's done his job.

I certainly saw a twinkle in his eye on a lot of those plays :D

Cambridge_Red
03-24-2009, 12:05 PM
I like winning it felt good. Win at all costs forget being noble, being an England supporter I have witnessed nobility costing us on far too many occasions. Amado is a winner, exactly what we need

ensco
03-24-2009, 12:05 PM
That's good.

When they are more worried about him than about the match, he's done his job.

I certainly saw a twinkle in his eye on a lot of those plays :D

It was actually funny.

The guy next to me said "I think I hate that f*%$% more than I hate Ruiz". I said "I know what you mean"

giambac
03-24-2009, 01:45 PM
I'm conflicted about Guevara.

He's obviously a supreme talent, and he's incredibly disruptive. He took KC out of their game, they hate him so much. The KC bench were up in arms about the guy the entire game. He was a huge positive for us. I know that.

And yet....

He was flat out diving/embellishing all over the pitch, and not just late when we were killing the clock. He was almost as bad as Schelotto was at BMO last year.

(There is an idea being promoted on these boards that Guevara is not a diver but is some sort of brilliant strategic time waster. This argument is not working for me.)

The flip side is that his "disruptive" style backfires sometimes (remember the red card in a crucial situation against Dallas in August last year?).

We had a big problem with the referees last year. Call after call went against us. I'm worried that the presence of someone who plays this style could hurt us with the refs over the course of the season.

Then there's the fact that he's going to miss a huge number of games.

I do respect his enormous talent.

But I really don't know what to think about him.

He's a good quality player but can also be a selfish jackass. Somewhat like Sean Avery of the NY Rangers....................

There is good and bad with him.. You just have to hope the good outweighs the bad . So far the good is up 1-0.

Four 4 Two
03-24-2009, 01:51 PM
I like him until he doesnt play for us anymore. then i will hate his 5' 1" diving crap!

TFCREDNWHITE
03-24-2009, 02:05 PM
I think that this year, Guevara has settled into the city a bit more, I trust his wife loves it here(with the big latin community and all), I hope and pray that he will be playing with more passion and fire for TFC this year...It already seems to be true, but then again we are only one game into it...

I really do think that MVP honors are fully ON the table for him and as long as he has his knife, fork and napkin he could devour that shit if he feels the need to. Lets see how this all plays out...

AL-MO
03-24-2009, 02:21 PM
How about this?

STOP BITCHING ABOUT OUR (arguably) BEST FUCKING PLAYER!




EL LOBO

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3221/2954795911_b572d4010e_o.jpg

james
03-24-2009, 03:12 PM
James, I would challenge you to find me one dive from Guevara in yesterday's match (if you have access to match center). Show me ONE play where he flops in the air with no contact from the other player. You won't find it, it didn't happen. He might cry like a baby after he's nailed from behind, that ain't diving, and that sure as hell ain't cheating either. The dumbass players who keep hacking at him from behind when he's shielding the ball deserve to get a foul against them.

Other methods of wasting time in Soccer:

1. Goalies taking their time to take a goal kick
2. Running the ball into the corner and kicking it off a player
3. substitution with no time left in the game, player walks off the field while he looks pretty and claps at the fans
4. Players taking their time to take a free kick
5. Players standing in front of the ball on a free kick

Need I say more? Wasting time is all part of the beautifull game of football. Teams do this all the time when they are winning, get used to it cause it's not going anywhere.

You just admit in that sentence that you know he went down and lay there like a baby even tho he wasnt injured...thats the same shit as diving, going down or staying down when you could easily get right back or not even gone done in the first place is diving and i cant show no respect to players that do that. He got touched so he went straight to the ground and then lay there like a baby. Thats the problem with soccer, diving and all this shit has become so main stream that you guys all support it now.

And Guevara I dont think was doing it to waste time, he was doing that hopping he would get a free kick off of it. Difference between cheatting to get position of the ball then jsut wasting time on the clock.

james
03-24-2009, 03:15 PM
and honestly can someone tell me how his diving helped score any of those goals saturday night???

Hes skilled enough, he scored those 2 goals Saturday night when he wasnt being a baby and lying on the floor, he scored well he was on his feet playing like he should. So why doesnt he just stop pulling that pussy diving shit?

AL-MO
03-24-2009, 03:16 PM
Take the good with the bad. He is what he is. That is all I will say.

Shaughno
03-24-2009, 03:19 PM
and honestly can someone tell me how his diving helped score any of those goals saturday night???

Hes skilled enough, he scored those 2 goals last night when he wasnt being a baby and lying on the floor, he scored well he was on his feet playing like he should. So why doesnt he just stop pulling that pussy diving shit?

Question, is complaining about it and calling one of our players a cheating cunt going to change anything?

Do I want our players to dive? Nope, I'd much rather win using pure skill and hard work. Will I complain if Guevara or any other player on our team embellishes to win a call? Nope. Will I complain if said player gets carded for embellishment or diving? Nope.

It is what it is, and it got under the KC player's and fan's skin. Taking them off their game for at least moments of each half.

Pachuco
03-24-2009, 03:22 PM
You just admit in that sentence that you know he went down and lay there like a baby even tho he wasnt injured...thats the same shit as diving, going down or staying down when you could easily get right back or not even gone done in the first place is diving and i cant show no respect to players that do that. He got touched so he went straight to the ground and then lay there like a baby. Thats the problem with soccer, diving and all this shit has become so main stream that you guys all support it no.

And Guevara I dont think was doing it to waste time, he was doing that hopping he would get a free kick off of it. Difference between cheatting to get position of the ball then jsut wasting time on the clock.

DUDE, there is A BIG DIFFERENCE between diving and embelishing a foul. If it's the same to you, fine, but there's a difference to me, therefore, I've never admitted shit about Guevara diving in that game. In saturday's game HE DID NOT DIVE in my opinion.

Saying that Guevara went down in hopes of getting a free kick is kinda exagerating what happened. He already had the free kick, he was fouled (proven by the ref who gave a yellow to the other player). He stayed down in order to waste time and disrupt the play of the game.

Now, if you are telling me Guevara wasn't touched and he subsequently went down that's a different story. In that case he's trying to fool the ref into giving him a free kick. That's not what I saw, and if you saw that, once again, I'd love for you to point me to the incident.

ExiledRed
03-24-2009, 03:23 PM
Gerrard doesn't dive.

Guevara didn't dive.

It's easier this way, believe me.

that is all.

Pachuco
03-24-2009, 03:24 PM
and honestly can someone tell me how his diving helped score any of those goals saturday night???

Hes skilled enough, he scored those 2 goals Saturday night when he wasnt being a baby and lying on the floor, he scored well he was on his feet playing like he should. So why doesnt he just stop pulling that pussy diving shit?

It helped disrupt the play of the game. It annoyed KC, it worked to our benefit and he sure as hell wasn't cheating. You obviously have something personal against the guy cause not many people saw Guevara diving, in fact, the ref didn't either. If the ref gave Guevara a yellow card for diving I would see your point, but that didn't happen, so save it for when he actually dives and gets carded.

spezz44
03-24-2009, 03:28 PM
its just amado being amado, haha.

james
03-24-2009, 03:52 PM
It helped disrupt the play of the game. It annoyed KC, it worked to our benefit and he sure as hell wasn't cheating. You obviously have something personal against the guy cause not many people saw Guevara diving, in fact, the ref didn't either. If the ref gave Guevara a yellow card for diving I would see your point, but that didn't happen, so save it for when he actually dives and gets carded.

well i said earlyer refs rarely do call on a players who dive or embellish if thats what you want to call it, thats why i said refs need to get strict on these things, cause currently they dont. Not to mention MLS refs often arent the greatest anyways no matter what calls they make.

And i wouldnt have any problem with Guevera if he stopped going down like that because he is a skilled player. Im against any players that pull diving and embellishing in Soccer. But this is not the first time hes done this. I remember last year in Toronto when ever a player on the other teams would dive or embellish fans would rant on and on how they hate that shit, everyone around me would. Then one game Guevera did the same thing and i called him out on it to "get the fuck up", and these 2 guys near me were saying how we gotta support what he does. I mean its kinda stupid when you rant how its bad for the game when other players do it, but when a TFC player does it its ok.

Shaughno
03-24-2009, 03:57 PM
well i said earlyer refs rarely do call on a players who dive or embellish if thats what you want to call it, thats why i said refs need to get strict on these things, cause currently they dont. Not to mention MLS refs often arent the greatest anyways no matter what calls they make.

And i wouldnt have any problem with Guevara if he stopped going down like that because he is a skilled player. Im against any players that pull diving and embellishing in Soccer. But this is not the first time hes done this. I remember last year in Toronto when ever a player on the other teams would dive or embellish fans would rant on and on how they hate that shit, everyone around me would. Then one game Guevera did the same thing and i called him out on it to get the fuck up, and these 2 guys near me were saying how we gotta support what he does. I mean its kinda stupid when you rant how its bad for the game when other players do it, but when a TFC player does it its ok.


Two points.

First, they are very different. One is going down with no contact and the other is making a meal of what contact does occur. There definitely is a BIG difference. Making sure you get a foul called and making a foul from nothing are not the same thing.

Second, I agree to an extent and have said the same thing about our other TFC players who don't get bitched about when they do the same things. I hate Schelletto because he dives way too often, but mostly because he's on the opposing team. I don't 'like' when our players dive, but I'm not going to bitch about it. As a former referee I know damn well that if the ref doesn't call it, there isn't much point in worrying about it.

james
03-24-2009, 04:00 PM
DUDE, there is A BIG DIFFERENCE between diving and embelishing a foul. If it's the same to you, fine, but there's a difference to me, therefore, I've never admitted shit about Guevara diving in that game. In saturday's game HE DID NOT DIVE in my opinion.

Saying that Guevara went down in hopes of getting a free kick is kinda exagerating what happened. He already had the free kick, he was fouled (proven by the ref who gave a yellow to the other player). He stayed down in order to waste time and disrupt the play of the game.

Now, if you are telling me Guevara wasn't touched and he subsequently went down that's a different story. In that case he's trying to fool the ref into giving him a free kick. That's not what I saw, and if you saw that, once again, I'd love for you to point me to the incident.

no he got touched ill say that. But just cause you get touched doesnt mean a player cant dive. I mean im not even just talking about Guevera, many players get a little tap on the leg or somethin and drop straight to the ground. To me thats diving, embeliishing, faking, cheatting, i hate all of that. And no doubt in my mind he was not hurt at all and Guevera could of got up in a heart beat if he wanted. He choose to pretend he was hurt, and i dont respect that. Besides that hes a great skilled player tho.

trane
03-24-2009, 04:53 PM
Gerrard doesn't dive.

Guevara didn't dive.

It's easier this way, believe me.

that is all.

What about C. Ronaldo? ;)

Keyman
03-24-2009, 05:09 PM
Sadly, diving is an art which, when mastered, can win games. I don't think that Guevara is a habitual diver, but he does use it as a tactic at points. If he were to begin to dive excessively, then I'd want him off the team immediately, no matter how vital a role he plays. Winning is great, but it's not everything. I hold sportsmanship very highly.

trane
03-24-2009, 05:12 PM
When it comes to football, my favourite tactitian is Nicolo Machiavelli.

gtaguy
03-24-2009, 05:24 PM
I'm guessing you weren't at the game. Anyone who was there will tell you that the KC players, bench and fans, by the second half, were going berserk over Guevara.

no i wasn't at the game unfortunately . Not only did he do his thing he got it right getting under the skin of all of KC fans and team. I think he exagerated then on was to continue to piss off the oposing team. If u ask me job done...

we move on to our next victims and hope that he does his shinanigans again..bear in mind he does this too many times he will get burned . the refs aren't stupid and will keep a tab on this .. shitty that he won't be playing this weekend becuase of international duty..

torontocelt
03-24-2009, 07:56 PM
Personally I could not care less if he is diving etc as long as he is winning free kicks, penalities or getting players sent off. I have learned from watching football in Europe that good guys usually come last and if one team is going to do it and gain an advantage then why not our team also? The amount of times I have seen European teams cheat to their advantage against Scottish club teams and the Scottish national team is disgusting. The players should be ashamed of themselves but ultimately it is down to poor refereeing that they get away with it and to a certain degree I don't blame the cheating players for doing everything they can to get their team a win.

With regards to Guevera, he obviously has a bit of talent but from what I have seen he is very inconsistent. If I were him I would concentrate more on giving his all every game and also learn how to take control of games more often. If TFC is to be successful it needs its best players to work hard and be influential and it also needs its poorer players to run until they drop and close the other teams down when we dont have the ball. The Euro winning Greek team is a good example of a hard working team with a bit of skill who punched above their weight as were Porto when they won the champs league although it must be said they had some cracking players too.

Pachuco
03-24-2009, 08:42 PM
no he got touched ill say that. But just cause you get touched doesnt mean a player cant dive. I mean im not even just talking about Guevera, many players get a little tap on the leg or somethin and drop straight to the ground. To me thats diving, embeliishing, faking, cheatting, i hate all of that. And no doubt in my mind he was not hurt at all and Guevera could of got up in a heart beat if he wanted. He choose to pretend he was hurt, and i dont respect that. Besides that hes a great skilled player tho.

So if embelishement and and diving are the same thing. And you think MLS refs suck and need to stop this bullshit. How do you expect the refs to stop embelishment? Specially when there actually is a foul on the play? Is he going to put a lie detector on the player on the ground to see if he's really hurting? This is what I'm trying to say, can't do nothing about emelishment except put time back on the clock, which is already done (injury time).

gtaguy
03-24-2009, 08:56 PM
So if embelishement and and diving are the same thing. And you think MLS refs suck and need to stop this bullshit. How do you expect the refs to stop embelishment? Specially when there actually is a foul on the play? Is he going to put a lie detector on the player on the ground to see if he's really hurting? This is what I'm trying to say, can't do nothing about emelishment except put time back on the clock, which is already done (injury time).


well said pachuco.. that was the word i was looking for "embellishment" the foul had already occured.. all guevara was looking for was to buy more time and run the clock alittle more.. this is not a sin in soccer its just called smart footy.
I can bet you money that this was taught to him when he was a junior in a squad . Some are good and he is..

Lucky Strike
03-24-2009, 10:07 PM
I get the feeling this thread has outlived its usefulness and probably ought to be closed down. Only bad things can happen from here on.

james
03-25-2009, 12:22 AM
So if embelishement and and diving are the same thing. And you think MLS refs suck and need to stop this bullshit. How do you expect the refs to stop embelishment? Specially when there actually is a foul on the play? Is he going to put a lie detector on the player on the ground to see if he's really hurting? This is what I'm trying to say, can't do nothing about emelishment except put time back on the clock, which is already done (injury time).

that simple like i said before, you give him a card. Everyone knew he was embellishing so you gotta be blinde or stupid to not notice that. Maybe other players do it better and you cant tell, but that was just obvious. If he is fouled but he also embellishes on the same foul then give the player who commited the foul a card while also giving the player that comits the embellishing a card as well. Its really not hard. Ive seen it done a few times (out of like 100's of games, so it happens to rarely). So if refs got stict like ive said before then really this diving and Embellishing wouldnt happen so much. But no one seems to do nothing these days and seems to be main stream so most you guys support this crap play of soccer.

Pachuco
03-25-2009, 09:17 AM
that simple like i said before, you give him a card. Everyone knew he was embellishing so you gotta be blinde or stupid to not notice that. Maybe other players do it better and you cant tell, but that was just obvious. If he is fouled but he also embellishes on the same foul then give the player who commited the foul a card while also giving the player that comits the embellishing a card as well. Its really not hard. Ive seen it done a few times (out of like 100's of games, so it happens to rarely). So if refs got stict like ive said before then really this diving and Embellishing wouldnt happen so much. But no one seems to do nothing these days and seems to be main stream so most you guys support this crap play of soccer.


The scenario you describe is incredibly hard to implement. Who is a ref to judge whether the player is hurting or not if he was actually fouled? all it takes is that one incident where the ref gives a yellow card to the player and his foot is actually broken. It's not that no one wants to do anything about it, it's that it's next to impossible to govern.

BTW - I fully support yellows for diving, and refs need to get a little more accurate with that.

Steve
03-25-2009, 09:41 AM
I used to hate the players who dived/embellished/etc, but I've come to a realization. It isn't the players who are the problem, it's the system. As long as they play in a sport where that behavior is beneficial, why not do it? As long as there is little chance of punishment, but a large chance of reward, "acting" is going to be good business.

Personally, I think punishments need to be more harsh. Use video replay after the match to punish outright simulation with a yellow, or even a red, card. Force that player to sit the next game. It wouldn't interfere with the flow of the game, and sure, you might still get a call during the game, but it might no longer be worth it if you're risking being benched (And if the risk is very high). For embellishment it's much harder. How can you tell? Well, I think we just need to strengthen what we have. The going down under contact is usually fine (draw the foul) but the time wasting on the ground after light contact is silly, and only turns people off the sport. So, have the ref use their judgement by sending the player to the sideline more often, and don't let them back on! Not forever, but if the ref thinks an injury is being embellished, keep the player off for a few minutes. Worst case scenario, the player wasn't faking and gets treatment on the sidelines (since he obviously couldn't get up). This would encourage players to get up quicker, especially in the last minutes of the game, since they don't want to risk defending a man down while up a goal.

Anyway, the point is, Guevara is a great player, and played with real heart on sat. He comes from a country that encourages that behavior more, so I don't think it's fair for us to crucify him for it. He is a passionate player, and if the fans start to dislike him for something he feels should be celebrated, he might slip into a slump.

Pachuco
03-25-2009, 09:45 AM
I used to hate the players who dived/embellished/etc, but I've come to a realization. It isn't the players who are the problem, it's the system. As long as they play in a sport where that behavior is beneficial, why not do it? As long as there is little chance of punishment, but a large chance of reward, "acting" is going to be good business.

Personally, I think punishments need to be more harsh. Use video replay after the match to punish outright simulation with a yellow, or even a red, card. Force that player to sit the next game. It wouldn't interfere with the flow of the game, and sure, you might still get a call during the game, but it might no longer be worth it if you're risking being benched (And if the risk is very high). For embellishment it's much harder. How can you tell? Well, I think we just need to strengthen what we have. The going down under contact is usually fine (draw the foul) but the time wasting on the ground after light contact is silly, and only turns people off the sport. So, have the ref use their judgement by sending the player to the sideline more often, and don't let them back on! Not forever, but if the ref thinks an injury is being embellished, keep the player off for a few minutes. Worst case scenario, the player wasn't faking and gets treatment on the sidelines (since he obviously couldn't get up). This would encourage players to get up quicker, especially in the last minutes of the game, since they don't want to risk defending a man down while up a goal.

Anyway, the point is, Guevara is a great player, and played with real heart on sat. He comes from a country that encourages that behavior more, so I don't think it's fair for us to crucify him for it. He is a passionate player, and if the fans start to dislike him for something he feels should be celebrated, he might slip into a slump.

That is a really good idea actually. I would totally support something like that.

james
03-25-2009, 11:50 AM
I used to hate the players who dived/embellished/etc, but I've come to a realization. It isn't the players who are the problem, it's the system. As long as they play in a sport where that behavior is beneficial, why not do it? As long as there is little chance of punishment, but a large chance of reward, "acting" is going to be good business.

Personally, I think punishments need to be more harsh. Use video replay after the match to punish outright simulation with a yellow, or even a red, card. Force that player to sit the next game. It wouldn't interfere with the flow of the game, and sure, you might still get a call during the game, but it might no longer be worth it if you're risking being benched (And if the risk is very high). For embellishment it's much harder. How can you tell? Well, I think we just need to strengthen what we have. The going down under contact is usually fine (draw the foul) but the time wasting on the ground after light contact is silly, and only turns people off the sport. So, have the ref use their judgement by sending the player to the sideline more often, and don't let them back on! Not forever, but if the ref thinks an injury is being embellished, keep the player off for a few minutes. Worst case scenario, the player wasn't faking and gets treatment on the sidelines (since he obviously couldn't get up). This would encourage players to get up quicker, especially in the last minutes of the game, since they don't want to risk defending a man down while up a goal.

Anyway, the point is, Guevara is a great player, and played with real heart on sat. He comes from a country that encourages that behavior more, so I don't think it's fair for us to crucify him for it. He is a passionate player, and if the fans start to dislike him for something he feels should be celebrated, he might slip into a slump.

i tottally agree most of what you saying. I said i wish they did something like check replays after a game and if it is obvious a player dived or wasted time then give him a card. I think that would be a great idea. Also the thing about if a player embellishes that he is so hurt then yes make him go for treatment on the sidelines.

Very good ideas i wish they would consider in soccer!