TFC and MLS doing it right my opinion

[RedsYNWA]

I have been an avid supporter of the EPL and many other European leagues. Being a fan of Liverpool all my life. When TFC got a team, prior to becks coming over, I got seasons knowing the passion in Toronto for the beautiful game would make this succeed. I never knew how in such a short span my heart would park itself here. There are many reasons
1. The live atmosphere in ENG has died over the past years at the stadiums, you can only get that in pubs these days, we have it live at BMO
2. The players are very over paid with clubs facing massive debts which can only result in Leeds type scenerios, or NASL if you will
3. Domestic players are no longer the norm in the EPL, I love the fact that we have home town players
4. The ticket prices are out of this world, here it's still a bargain
5. The Snob factor, here we are still a young team we all love it,no one judges. In the UK you get the old My Grand dad went to a game and the family has always been a wolves family you just don't belong bullshit

Anyhow we might lack the talent(not for long) but never the passion
ALL FOR ONE

[james]

what i like about TFC games compared to matches in England is that the cops arent so hardcore all the time. In England you would get your season ticket taken away for throwing somethin like a streamer. Also they are very strict on what you bring into the stadium. Just about every stadium in England doesnt let you bring in giant flags on flag poles. And they are often also very hard on what flags say on them. I could see them not letting all are banners in the stadium.

As for atmosphere, id say TFC got a great passion, party atmosphere. Everyone always seems to have a great time, in England people seem more serious, and some fans just act like they are tough guys. But 1 thing i say England matches still got way better then TFC matches is the singing. In Toronto far to many people dont know how to sing at a football match. Toronto fans only know the basic 3 word chants.

[RedsYNWA]

I would never want BMO to turn into a Police state stadium.
The songs will come with time...the tradition will be built by us
At Anfield you have old guys, young people ,woman ,everyone singing their hearts out and it sounds amazing, we will have that with time, Liverpool had over 100 years practise

[james]

I would never want BMO to turn into a Police state stadium.
The songs will come with time...the tradition will be built by us
At Anfield you have old guys, young people ,woman ,everyone singing their hearts out and it sounds amazing, we will have that with time, Liverpool had over 100 years practise

i dont think they started singing that till the 60"s:p. Tho im not a Liverpool supporter so couldnt be forsure, but its what ive herd.

[james]

and Liverpool seems to be one of the only stadiums that fans at the beginning of a match do have giant flags.

[Kickit09]

i disagree with you, not on the EPL vs MLS stuff, but on MLS/TFC doing it right. to me it seems TFC got it wrong for the most part. they underestimated the support greatly, they built a stadium that's too small and many people dont like. they put together terrible teams for the first 2 years, Their security treated us like hooligans. they broke promises numerous times. hell, they even lost flags and banners. So while TFC is a success, don't go giving MLS/TFC all the credit for it. we the supporters and even the casual fans made TFC and BMO field the success it is today, not MLS or MLSE.

[mclaren]

I have been an avid supporter of the EPL and many other European leagues. Being a fan of Liverpool all my life. When TFC got a team, prior to becks coming over, I got seasons knowing the passion in Toronto for the beautiful game would make this succeed. I never knew how in such a short span my heart would park itself here. There are many reasons
1. The live atmosphere in ENG has died over the past years at the stadiums, you can only get that in pubs these days, we have it live at BMO
2. The players are very over paid with clubs facing massive debts which can only result in Leeds type scenerios, or NASL if you will
3. Domestic players are no longer the norm in the EPL, I love the fact that we have home town players
4. The ticket prices are out of this world, here it's still a bargain
5. The Snob factor, here we are still a young team we all love it,no one judges. In the UK you get the old My Grand dad went to a game and the family has always been a wolves family you just don't belong bullshit

Anyhow we might lack the talent(not for long) but never the passion
ALL FOR ONE

very fair points.

[H Bomb]

does that mean you bailed on the family Wolves support and chose to support Liverpool?

shame on you;)

[james]

i disagree with you, not on the EPL vs MLS stuff, but on MLS/TFC doing it right. to me it seems TFC got it wrong for the most part. they underestimated the support greatly, they built a stadium that's too small and many people dont like. they put together terrible teams for the first 2 years, Their security treated us like hooligans. they broke promises numerous times. hell, they even lost flags and banners. So while TFC is a success, don't go giving MLS/TFC all the credit for it. we the supporters and even the casual fans made TFC and BMO field the success it is today, not MLS or MLSE.

TFC marketed it right. And tho TFC management didnt create the supporter groups, what they did do was let the supporter groups do there own thing. And TFC did create the Supporters section. Some clubs in MLS really dont let supporter groups do there own thing. In some stadiums in MLS they dont even let the fans swear or stand up all game, they really only want soccer moms and kids there.

The stadium was also built by the city and at the last minute, it wasnt originally made for TFC, it was for the Under-20's world cup and TFC just jumped on board at the last minute. The stadium had to be built in less then a year to be ready for 2007, so it really was a rushed cheap job. But what i would like to see is TFC revamp that stadium to make it right.

And the cops at times can be assholes. But for the most part they arent that bad. I dont know if you have been to matches in recent years in England..but man the cops there are much stricter and they watch the fans like hawks. If this was like England you would have like 30 cops jsut sitting outside shoeless Joes before every game waitting to walk us all to the stadium. Then make sure we stay in are seated area. And alot of TFC fans would never get away with some the shit they do at BMO field in England with all there stadium security camera and shit. I mean in England many stadiums have sbig ecurity boths that are made just for cops to watch the fans all game long.

as for TFC creating a winning team??? man this is Toronto, its very rare this city ever has a winning team in any sport!

[James17930]

But to put it in perspective, look at the decades of serious trouble that they had in England, and with English fans on the continent-- I mean, the police presence now may seem harsh, but it's kind of understandable when you look at it.

Although hopefully the day will soon come when they feel they can ease off on things a little bit and let people enjoy it more once again.

I remember watching an EPL game (can't remember the team) where they had a sort of supporters section behind the goal, with flags and drums and such. I was quite surprised to see the drums. Might have been Blackburn (?) or Bolton.

Maybe some of the clubs might start taking cues from us now :)

[Super]

I do think we enjoy a fair bit of excitement out here not seen anywhere else in the world. I mean, let's be honest, this is the wild west of football. We have no idea where this road may take us. Look at the growth in the last couple of years. It's been one wild ride indeed, and it has exceeded all of my wildest expectations when I look back to when the team was first announced. I seriously thought at the time that 10,000 tickets sold per game would've been a success - and a supporters group of maybe a hundred or so would've been fun as well. But nope, reality hit and exploded all of our expectations. No one else in the world outside of the MLS is able to boast the same experiences we've had. We're part of something new which is truly amazing.

But who knows, maybe our grand kids will tell newcomers to the club to buzz off as well.

[Shakes McQueen]

i disagree with you, not on the EPL vs MLS stuff, but on MLS/TFC doing it right. to me it seems TFC got it wrong for the most part. they underestimated the support greatly, they built a stadium that's too small and many people dont like. they put together terrible teams for the first 2 years, Their security treated us like hooligans. they broke promises numerous times. hell, they even lost flags and banners. So while TFC is a success, don't go giving MLS/TFC all the credit for it. we the supporters and even the casual fans made TFC and BMO field the success it is today, not MLS or MLSE.

You'd be hard pressed to fault MLSE for going small and cheap with the stadium, as opposed to big and elaborate. They had no idea how this venture would pan out.

And the police are getting better. Think of what a strange new frontier working a football match must be for them too - beer all over the place, jumping and singing, and shit being throw on the field (ie. streamers). MLSE bringing in the new security guy will be an immense help.

- Scott

[rocker]

I seriously thought at the time that 10,000 tickets sold per game would've been a success

yes, we sometimes forget this was a typical projection back then. The City of Toronto's business plan for BMO only projected about 14000 a game... that was sort of a break even point. To sell out 20000 a game was not expected even by the experts. Lenarduzzi was talking on the Fan about how he thought 5000 season tickets or so would have been a lot. Hindsight is 20/20 as they say.

[RedsYNWA]

I do think we enjoy a fair bit of excitement out here not seen anywhere else in the world. I mean, let's be honest, this is the wild west of football. We have no idea where this road may take us. Look at the growth in the last couple of years. It's been one wild ride indeed, and it has exceeded all of my wildest expectations when I look back to when the team was first announced. I seriously thought at the time that 10,000 tickets sold per game would've been a success - and a supporters group of maybe a hundred or so would've been fun as well. But nope, reality hit and exploded all of our expectations. No one else in the world outside of the MLS is able to boast the same experiences we've had. We're part of something new which is truly amazing.

But who knows, maybe our grand kids will tell newcomers to the club to buzz off as well.


I agree lets hope in one generation the MNT, TFC , the kids, and Canada will benefit from our passion.

[mighty_torontofc_2008]

I have been an avid supporter of the EPL and many other European leagues. Being a fan of Liverpool all my life. When TFC got a team, prior to becks coming over, I got seasons knowing the passion in Toronto for the beautiful game would make this succeed. I never knew how in such a short span my heart would park itself here. There are many reasons
1. The live atmosphere in ENG has died over the past years at the stadiums, you can only get that in pubs these days, we have it live at BMO
2. The players are very over paid with clubs facing massive debts which can only result in Leeds type scenerios, or NASL if you will
3. Domestic players are no longer the norm in the EPL, I love the fact that we have home town players
4. The ticket prices are out of this world, here it's still a bargain
5. The Snob factor, here we are still a young team we all love it,no one judges. In the UK you get the old My Grand dad went to a game and the family has always been a wolves family you just don't belong bullshit

Anyhow we might lack the talent(not for long) but never the passion
ALL FOR ONE

1 the new bigger stadiums have killed the atmosphere at places like Old Trafford, Arsenal's ground etc...
2 player wages have to come down in every sport..football is no different,although MLS could rasie the minimum salary for some.
3 MLS was brought about to bring forward domestic players and thats
should always be its objective...i would be glad if TFC never gets a DP.

[Pookie]

Re: Stadium could have been bigger

Hindsight is 20/20. Despite the interest as we enter year 3, I still don't think that something much bigger than 25,000 to 30,000 could be supported over the long term.

There are a few factors at play here.

1. Newness. The Skydome sold out every night for awhile there. Now, 30,000 is a great crowd. BMO is new, it's hard to get into, that makes it "cool" on the Toronto Fad Map.

2. Waiting list is over inflated. While I don't doubt the size of the waiting list, I do doubt whether the majority of those, if offered, would shell out more than $2k for a set of seasons. Many here, the most obvious supporters, balked when offered seats in the Reds.

The Leafs have a huge waiting list for season tickets. Yet, if people knew that they had to shell out $3000 to $15,000 per seat for a Personal Seat License AND $300 per game, would they really buy the tickets?

3. Beckham Bounce. TFC sold 1,000 seats the day Beckham announced he would play. Toronto is a "big league" town. As hockey mad as it is, the Marlies and OHL teams draw squat. Jays don't have much of a chance in the new economics, no one goes. Canada vs USA at the World Baseball Classic draws over 40,000... the next day, Canada vs Italy drew less than 12,000. Bills vs Argos. Etc, etc.

Over time, as the casual fan learns that MLS is a development league the interest may subside. The fact of this league is that good players will move on. That any "big names" will either be local or past their prime.

I think it can be a strong player in this city. I think that TFC/MLS will always have a core group of support. That's why it is special. It is never going to be like going to Old Trafford and maybe that's a good thing.

Re: Cops

Europe earned that level of security as a result of actions. It didn't start out that way.

MLS fans have a choice. Keep throwing beers, coins, parts of seats (as rumoured) and the few that are doing it will earn that level of security for the rest of us.

I'd love to see cameras in place at BMO. I'd love to have the season seats removed from knuckleheads and offered to the rest of us.

[dcdcdc]

I think Pookie's post is bang on.

I also don't think the popularity is sustainable for a larger stadium. I pay $320 for a season but wouldn't pay a dime more because it's not smart to me because some of the quality of play would not justify a dime more. Most seasons tickets are overpriced in BMO already, IMO but it's the in thing for now so people are willing and make the trip down and pay.



Re: Stadium could have been bigger

Hindsight is 20/20. Despite the interest as we enter year 3, I still don't think that something much bigger than 25,000 to 30,000 could be supported over the long term.

There are a few factors at play here.

1. Newness. The Skydome sold out every night for awhile there. Now, 30,000 is a great crowd. BMO is new, it's hard to get into, that makes it "cool" on the Toronto Fad Map.

2. Waiting list is over inflated. While I don't doubt the size of the waiting list, I do doubt whether the majority of those, if offered, would shell out more than $2k for a set of seasons. Many here, the most obvious supporters, balked when offered seats in the Reds.

The Leafs have a huge waiting list for season tickets. Yet, if people knew that they had to shell out $3000 to $15,000 per seat for a Personal Seat License AND $300 per game, would they really buy the tickets?

3. Beckham Bounce. TFC sold 1,000 seats the day Beckham announced he would play. Toronto is a "big league" town. As hockey mad as it is, the Marlies and OHL teams draw squat. Jays don't have much of a chance in the new economics, no one goes. Canada vs USA at the World Baseball Classic draws over 40,000... the next day, Canada vs Italy drew less than 12,000. Bills vs Argos. Etc, etc.

Over time, as the casual fan learns that MLS is a development league the interest may subside. The fact of this league is that good players will move on. That any "big names" will either be local or past their prime.

I think it can be a strong player in this city. I think that TFC/MLS will always have a core group of support. That's why it is special. It is never going to be like going to Old Trafford and maybe that's a good thing.

Re: Cops

Europe earned that level of security as a result of actions. It didn't start out that way.

MLS fans have a choice. Keep throwing beers, coins, parts of seats (as rumoured) and the few that are doing it will earn that level of security for the rest of us.

I'd love to see cameras in place at BMO. I'd love to have the season seats removed from knuckleheads and offered to the rest of us.

[james]

i agree with most things pookie says. I am not a fan of many of these new stadiums going up in England, they really hurt the old atmosphere the way they are being built. And Old Trafford i dont think the size of the stadium hurts the atmosphere, i think its the price of tickets. Its like going to a Leafs game almost, many of the real fans have been priced out of the stadium.

But i do NOT want camreas and extra cops at games like pookie wnats. Id much rather we sort it out as is. All those extra security can become to much and take away some of the great atmosphere we have.

[james]

id say in the long run Toronto could only continue to fill the stadium at 25-30,000 fans a game. Some people think we can sell like 50,000 a game but they obviously are being tricked by the media on how big TFC really are. They sell tickets at BMO field well...but when it comes to TV rattings, they are still way down compared to Leaf games and even alot of Blue Jay games.

[nfitz]

As soon as you start getting extra unsold seats, then attendance and season tickets sales will be down. Many wouldn't worry about seasons if they knew they coudl easily get tickets when they want.

The big question is what is the magic number. Clearly bigger than 20K. 25K? 30K? I say add the 8,000 and see where we are at. If demand really holds up with long waiting lists for a couple more years after that, then it's time to consider a bigger stadium.

[Pookie]

But i do NOT want camreas and extra cops at games like pookie wnats. Id much rather we sort it out as is. All those extra security can become to much and take away some of the great atmosphere we have.

You have a point but I did not say extra cops. Ultimately, if the fans don't "sort it out" and some of that beer throwing stuff escalates, we really won't have the option. They'll be there.

As for cameras, I'm still ok with it. I think if something serious goes down that results in injury, you can easily review the tape to find the culprit and investigate removing their privileges. Without the tape though, you really have very little options.

I remember an incident last year in which an idiot threw a full beer from the top of 227 towards the pitch. S/he didn't have a great arm and the beer landed in the first few rows.

If I was sitting down there with my kids and one of them were to be injured as a result, I'd sure as hell want to have the idiot who threw it on video. Amongst my priorities would be pressing charges, suing if there was any injury or trauma and ensuring that the SOB never got to see another game live.