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James17930
03-18-2009, 06:54 PM
So Garber announced today that MLS is looking to go to 20 teams by 2012 (according to Ives).

Sounds great, but then of course a home/away schedule with 20 teams means playing 38 games.

Is this possible? I mean, right now the schedule seems pretty packed as it is, with the league even starting a week earlier this year than last.

Seems to me there would have to be a lot more mid-week games, which means teams playing three games a week quite often (don't know how the players would feel about that).

Do you think they would do an NHL style thing where some Eastern teams wouldn't play some Western teams each year?

egoodwin
03-18-2009, 06:55 PM
I would not shed a tear if I didn't see Seattle or Chivas at BMO every year

My wallet hopes it stays at 30

tfcleeds
03-18-2009, 06:58 PM
I was thinking about this today, and I don't know how they would be able to cram in an additional 8 games a year, with SuperLiga, NCC, friendlies, etc. It would seem to be the perfect opportunity to move to a single table once we have 20 teams, but playing each team home and away might be asking too much.

TFC_Toon
03-18-2009, 06:59 PM
At 20 teams and 38 matches it does appear to be taking on an EPL type flavour, I agree there would likely be more midweek games as the playing window is confined, in this country anyway. Good point about the lads getting draw into the 3 match 7 day scenario as well, it is there where the squad would need to be deeper for certain.

mighty_torontofc_2008
03-18-2009, 07:01 PM
So Garber announced today that MLS is looking to go to 20 teams by 2012 (according to Ives).

Sounds great, but then of course a home/away schedule with 20 teams means playing 38 games.

Is this possible? I mean, right now the schedule seems pretty packed as it is, with the league even starting a week earlier this year than last.

Seems to me there would have to be a lot more mid-week games, which means teams playing three games a week quite often (don't know how the players would feel about that).

Do you think they would do an NHL style thing where some Eastern teams wouldn't play some Western teams each year?

Just start the season earlier, have all cup competitions( superliga,CCL,
Cada championship on weeknights) save the weekends of league matches, with a odd game on a weeknight..it could work. The NHL set up is possible..would rather see more games against the eatern conf sides
anyways...nuts to watching Chivas, Jan Jose , Vancouver..

TFC_Toon
03-18-2009, 07:03 PM
Just start the season earlier, have all cup competitions( superliga,CCL,
Cada championship on weeknights) save the weekends of league matches, with a odd game on a weeknight..it could work. The NHL set up is possible..would rather see more games against the eatern conf sides
anyways...nuts to watching Chivas, Jan Jose , Vancouver..

Would that mean 4 away games for TFC to start the season?

mighty_torontofc_2008
03-18-2009, 07:15 PM
Would that mean 4 away games for TFC to start the season?


Not really there is no reason TFC could not have opened at home this weekend..ok it might be cool...but it might be cool and pouring/snowing April 4 so lets get TFC to open the season at Home next year.

H Bomb
03-18-2009, 07:17 PM
Just get rid of the playoffs, and supplement with a single elimination cup tournament during the season. That would allow 3-4 more weeks at the end of the year. and get rid of the horrible horrible playoffs

TFC_Toon
03-18-2009, 07:18 PM
Not really there is no reason TFC could not have opened at home this weekend..ok it might be cool...but it might be cool and pouring/snowing April 4 so lets get TFC to open the season at Home next year.

I agree, weather is not really a concern for the support, just a concern if the match can actually be played I suppose.

TFC_Toon
03-18-2009, 07:18 PM
Just get rid of the playoffs, and supplement with a single elimination cup tournament during the season. That would allow 3-4 more weeks at the end of the year. and get rid of the horrible horrible playoffs

Yes, I would much rather see a cup tie midweek.

Wagner
03-18-2009, 07:18 PM
TFC won't likely host a game before April 1.
unless BMO is retrofitted.
Only the west side is winterized...
so if we had a serious cold snap...the pipes could burst.

Jack
03-18-2009, 07:19 PM
Not really there is no reason TFC could not have opened at home this weekend..ok it might be cool...but it might be cool and pouring/snowing April 4 so lets get TFC to open the season at Home next year.
Frozen pipes at BMO Field would certainly be a big reason as they wouldn't be allowed to open the stadium to the public.

As for the comments about packing the schedule together and playing more midweek games, you guys need to remember that we don't have the squads that the european clubs have.

Our (and other teams') players would be dead by the end of the season given the fact that our roster depth is minimal at best.

We don't have enough bodies to play twice or three times a week for the whole season. Imagine the quality of some of those cup games? We'd be playing academy kids or something or maybe Mo would have to lace them up.


Just get rid of the playoffs, and supplement with a single elimination cup tournament during the season. That would allow 3-4 more weeks at the end of the year. and get rid of the horrible horrible playoffs
I like playoffs.

Keep your single-table competitions for the old world :D (and even there they have playoffs for promotion)

TFC_Toon
03-18-2009, 07:22 PM
Frozen pipes at BMO Field would certainly be a big reason as they wouldn't be allowed to open the stadium to the public.

As for the comments about packing the schedule together and playing more midweek games, you guys need to remember that we don't have the squads that the european clubs have.

Our (and other teams') players would be dead by the end of the season given the fact that our roster depth is minimal at best.

We don't have enough bodies to play twice or three times a week for the whole season. Imagine the quality of some of those cup games? We'd be playing academy kids or something or maybe Mo would have to lace them up.

Absolutly correct, the 24 man squad is nowhere deep enough as it stands for this season, never mind a schedule of 38 and cup ties. The league is still evolving I suppose however I am hopeful they are considering the tangibles.

H Bomb
03-18-2009, 07:27 PM
I like playoffs.

Keep your single-table competitions for the old world :D (and even there they have playoffs for promotion)

I dont hate playoffs, I just hate the complete lack of interest in winning leagues. Playoffs are fun for the winners, but they are potluck(just look at how often 8 seeds go far in hockey). If the league was the most important thing then I'd tolerate playoffs, but since in this format they denigrate the league, I hate em....naturally I'll go nuts if TFC ever win them

Jack
03-18-2009, 07:33 PM
I dont hate playoffs, I just hate the complete lack of interest in winning leagues. Playoffs are fun for the winners, but they are potluck(just look at how often 8 seeds go far in hockey). If the league was the most important thing then I'd tolerate playoffs, but since in this format they denigrate the league, I hate em....naturally I'll go nuts if TFC ever win them
Not very often, actually.

It's happened a few times, but I wouldn't say "often".

More often than not, the top teams rise to the top in the playoffs.

And hockey is different. Look at Mexican football or MLS itself for a more realistic view of playoffs in footy.

Anyway, I do agree that winning the league has been cheapened in North American sports, but you still usually get one of the top teams winning.

TFC_Toon
03-18-2009, 07:34 PM
The league for me is the true measure of the champions.

Lucky Strike
03-18-2009, 07:34 PM
As much as I like the single table format, when MLS gets to 20 teams you could:

- Keep the East and West conference with 10 teams each.
- Home and away with the other 9 teams in the east (18 games).
- Home or away with the 10 western teams (10 games). For example, if TFC is away to Seattle one year, they're home to Seattle the next (like the A-league in Australia).
- It's two less games (28 total) than now but pretty close. And it would allow fewer games (if any) to be played on FIFA days.
- Less exhaustion on small squads and MLS will do better internationally, bringing in more revenue.

Jack
03-18-2009, 07:35 PM
The league for me is the true measure of the champions.
But their names aren't on the trophy.

This is a point that could be argued. Wouldn't a true chamion rise to the occasion in matches that were more important?

Long term consistency is certainly one measure, but rising to the occasion and winning the big ones is another.

Dunc
03-18-2009, 07:39 PM
Would more games not hopelessly fuck over teams who are already struggling for attendance?

Goodfellas FC
03-18-2009, 07:41 PM
As much as I like the single table format, when MLS gets to 20 teams you could:

- Keep the East and West conference with 10 teams each.
- Home and away with the other 9 teams in the east (18 games).
- Home or away with the 10 western teams (10 games). For example, if TFC is away to Seattle one year, they're home to Seattle the next (like the A-league in Australia).
- It's two less games (28 total) than now but pretty close. And it would allow fewer games (if any) to be played on FIFA days.
- Less exhaustion on small squads and MLS will do better internationally, bringing in more revenue.


my thoughts EXACTLY:hump:

TFC_Toon
03-18-2009, 07:45 PM
But their names aren't on the trophy.

This is a point that could be argued. Wouldn't a true chamion rise to the occasion in matches that were more important?

Long term consistency is certainly one measure, but rising to the occasion and winning the big ones is another.

How about the double this year Jack :canada:

RicoSuave44
03-18-2009, 07:53 PM
I don't like the idea of teams not playing each other equally. That's one thing the Prem does right is each team plays each other once home and once away. I prefer no playoffs, but that won't go well at this stage in North American footy development. So keep the MLS at 18 teams and have a 34 game sched. Start the season 2 weeks earlier and go 2 weeks later. I mean bad weather scenarios might effect T.O or Chicago, everyone else should be fine 95% of the time. And if it does get blustery then theres a wonderful invention called the orange soccer ball.

TFC_Toon
03-18-2009, 07:54 PM
But their names aren't on the trophy.

This is a point that could be argued. Wouldn't a true chamion rise to the occasion in matches that were more important?

Long term consistency is certainly one measure, but rising to the occasion and winning the big ones is another.

Call it old school but that is why I am an advocate of seeing the cup matches played throughout the year and culminating in the Cup Final, either way where TFC is involved I will follow.

Cashcleaner
03-18-2009, 07:55 PM
Speaking for myself, I do want to see a 38-game schedule in a league with 20 teams. To that end I think the best way to accommodate that sort of schedule is to seriously cut down on playoffs, international friendlies, and extra-league tourneys. MLS should drop Superliga and get out of the Pan-Pacific Championship for starters. CONCACAF Champions League and US Open Cup/Canadian Championship should be it for competitive games played outside the regular season.

Simply put, MLS has to prioritize itself better. Superliga, Pan-Pacific, Copa Sudamericana, etc. are not the sort of competitions we should be getting involved in if we want a league with a reasonable number of clubs and regular season games. I can't stand the idea of having any format other than home-and-away, though I know that at the moment we don't have much of a choice with the current format.

The league seems to be getting caught-up in competitions and tourneys that are more about marketing and expanding the MLS and team brands more than anything else. In my opinion, this is a policy and overall corporate attitude that the league cannot afford to continue.

TFC_Toon
03-18-2009, 08:00 PM
Excellent points Cash.

Lucky Strike
03-18-2009, 08:05 PM
^Don't get me wrong, I'd like an even home and away schedule (38 games) too and cutting down on Superliga, PPC and Copa Sudamericana is a good start but probably still not possible with a 24 man roster. An expanded roster with an increased salary cap would do the trick in combination with Cash's proposals. Nothing insane, maybe 6 extra players and an extra million for the cap would definitely help.

Cashcleaner
03-18-2009, 08:16 PM
Bringing back the Dev. Roster could help with regards to player fitness issues.

James17930
03-18-2009, 08:17 PM
But if you have the CCL, you can have Superliga -- there are different teams playing in each. I personally would not want to get rid of superliga.

But I don't mind the idea of ditching the playoffs -- I almost think it would be necessary to have the time for those extra matches.

Since Garber is coming out and saying 20 teams in the media, I would have to assume they've thought of something already.

Although, playing only intra-conference is an idea as well. With that, they could even realistically get up to 32 teams, 16 in each conference, and then the East/West champions play each other for the Cup, or something.

But that's obviously way down the road.

TFC_Toon
03-18-2009, 08:18 PM
The roster size must increase, even for this season we are only a couple of key injuries from tanking, like any club in the league.

Cashcleaner
03-18-2009, 08:25 PM
But if you have the CCL, you can have Superliga -- there are different teams playing in each. I personally would not want to get rid of superliga.

But I don't mind the idea of ditching the playoffs -- I almost think it would be necessary to have the time for those extra matches.


I think the playoffs will eventually go to a format similar to the FA Cup and will be played over the course of the season. That would be doable. I do like the MLC Cup, but I'm just not a fan of its current organization.

H Bomb
03-18-2009, 08:30 PM
i figure you can use half season rankings to seed the teams for the cup and just call it the playoffs maybe

Cashcleaner
03-18-2009, 08:31 PM
^ I think that could work.

MUFC_Niagara
03-18-2009, 08:38 PM
March 21 - Oct 31 = 33 Weekends

Dump the playoffs and introduce a league cup competition that has the teams play for it during the course of the season. No more friendlies during the season. All NCC games are played midweek as well as league cup and 5 league games. For TFC that would mean at least 10 midweek games. That's not bad. Of course, roster sizes would HAVE to be increased.

They still have the League Title and the MLS Cup which is played for during the course of the season.

James17930
03-18-2009, 08:40 PM
March 21 - Oct 31 = 33 Weekends

Dump the playoffs and introduce a league cup competition that has the teams play for it during the course of the season. No more friendlies during the season. All NCC games are played midweek as well as league cup and 5 league games. For TFC that would mean at least 10 midweek games. That's not bad. Of course, roster sizes would HAVE to be increased.

And when MLS eventually buys USL, and sets up a first and second division, those second division teams are included in the league up as well :D

MUFC_Niagara
03-18-2009, 08:45 PM
And when MLS eventually buys USL, and sets up a first and second division, those second division teams are included in the league up as well :D

You got it! Relegation and promotion....and bring the USL (2nd division)teams into the cup.

James17930
03-18-2009, 08:48 PM
You got it! Relegation and promotion....and bring the USL (2nd division)teams into the cup.

Although that will have to wait until all the teams had at least 20k stadiums (so probably decades away).

But I would still like that setup even if there wasn't Rel/Prom.

MUFC_Niagara
03-18-2009, 08:54 PM
Although that will have to wait until all the teams had at least 20k stadiums (so probably decades away).

But I would still like that setup even if there wasn't Rel/Prom.

Ya, plus I don't know how much the current MLS owners would like that idea. But the cup thing would work.

Jack
03-18-2009, 08:55 PM
Here we go around the same circle again.

Guys, whether it's a good thing or a bad thing (and for me, it's not a bad thing) we're not going to have a system that's like Europe.

Promotion/relegation is not in the culture of sport here. It's not going to happen. Playoffs are, so they'll stay.

Mexico has had HUGE success going to small groups and playoffs with their league. There are still a few old school pundits who grumble about the single-table stuff down there, but by and large, in a country with a long footy history and a very vibrant footy culture, the playoff format and now even the dual tournament with two champions and a super-champion have revitalized the sport to the point where it is the 5th richest league in the world.

It's a bit of a different format, but it works just fine.

It might not be exactly what you're used to or what you grew up with watching English or Croatian or Italian football, but it's still a viable and exciting way to determine the champion.

James17930
03-18-2009, 08:59 PM
^ I don't mind the playoffs, but I'm saying if they had to dump them to get a 38 game season in, I wouldn't mind it.

Plus, having MLS Cup played throughout the year as a League Cup thing would add that sort of 'playoff like excitement' to the season, just more spread out.

MUFC_Niagara
03-18-2009, 09:02 PM
Here we go around the same circle again.

Guys, whether it's a good thing or a bad thing (and for me, it's not a bad thing) we're not going to have a system that's like Europe.

Promotion/relegation is not in the culture of sport here. It's not going to happen. Playoffs are, so they'll stay.

Mexico has had HUGE success going to small groups and playoffs with their league. There are still a few old school pundits who grumble about the single-table stuff down there, but by and large, in a country with a long footy history and a very vibrant footy culture, the playoff format and now even the dual tournament with two champions and a super-champion have revitalized the sport to the point where it is the 5th richest league in the world.

It's a bit of a different format, but it works just fine.

It might not be exactly what you're used to or what you grew up with watching English or Croatian or Italian football, but it's still a viable and exciting way to determine the champion.

But Jack, Americans aren't buying into the sport anyway. The playoff system is in place so that people in North America would support the league. Other than a few markets is not happening. On the other side of the coin, people who love football don't take MLS seriously because of the league structure. There are soooooooo many people out there from South American, European, etc. backgrounds that could be drawn in to support the league if was what they were use to.

Jack
03-18-2009, 09:13 PM
But Jack, Americans aren't buying into the sport anyway. The playoff system is in place so that people in North America would support the league. Other than a few markets is not happening. On the other side of the coin, people who love football don't take MLS seriously because of the league structure. There are soooooooo many people out there from South American, European, etc. backgrounds that could be drawn in to support the league if was what they were use to.
Some Americans are buying into the sport. Where do you think the fans that go to the games live?

But anyway, I'm not talking about that. I'm saying that the playoff format is a viable format for a big pro league. It works in a huge league much closer to home than Europe.

Anyway, I know that I'm not going to convince Premiership fans that this is an acceptable format :D

But I'm a bit more open-minded about it.

Ossington Mental Youth
03-18-2009, 09:18 PM
id still like to see an emphasis on points and a single table whcih i dont think is out of order, we can still see playoffs but the regular season should be given greater value, also with the cba coming im sure that depth and reserve league will be given a second look allowing for a 34 game season etc

Ossington Mental Youth
03-18-2009, 09:21 PM
Speaking for myself, I do want to see a 38-game schedule in a league with 20 teams. To that end I think the best way to accommodate that sort of schedule is to seriously cut down on playoffs, international friendlies, and extra-league tourneys. MLS should drop Superliga and get out of the Pan-Pacific Championship for starters. CONCACAF Champions League and US Open Cup/Canadian Championship should be it for competitive games played outside the regular season.

Simply put, MLS has to prioritize itself better. Superliga, Pan-Pacific, Copa Sudamericana, etc. are not the sort of competitions we should be getting involved in if we want a league with a reasonable number of clubs and regular season games. I can't stand the idea of having any format other than home-and-away, though I know that at the moment we don't have much of a choice with the current format.

The league seems to be getting caught-up in competitions and tourneys that are more about marketing and expanding the MLS and team brands more than anything else. In my opinion, this is a policy and overall corporate attitude that the league cannot afford to continue.

agree 100%

MUFC_Niagara
03-18-2009, 09:23 PM
Some Americans are buying into the sport. Where do you think the fans that go to the games live?

But anyway, I'm not talking about that. I'm saying that the playoff format is a viable format for a big pro league. It works in a huge league much closer to home than Europe.

Anyway, I know that I'm not going to convince Premiership fans that this is an acceptable format :D

But I'm a bit more open-minded about it.

I just think that most leagues in the world do a single table for a reason. It works for the sport. The playoffs is viable for a big pro league, I agree with that. But I think a single table with a home and away matches works well for football. Anyway, you are right about it probably not changing and when the season starts it won't matter because one thing that never changes is living for the weekend!

nfitz
03-18-2009, 10:01 PM
Promotion/relegation is not in the culture of sport here. It's not going to happen. Playoffs are, so they'll stay.Your probably right about promotion/relegation. But the the play-offs don't seem to draw the biggest crowds. We loose almost a month of potential games, for 11 games, many with poor crowds.

Mightn't MLS be better off financially adding 4 more weekends of matches, with 32 games (in a 16-team league) of income?


All NCC games are played midweek as well as league cup and 5 league games. For TFC that would mean at least 10 midweek games. That's not bad.Plus 8 Championship League games if they make group play (which you'd think 5 MLS teams should make every year). So that suddenly become 18 mid-week games.

Jack
03-18-2009, 10:05 PM
Your probably right about promotion/relegation. But the the play-offs don't seem to draw the biggest crowds. We loose almost a month of potential games, for 11 games, many with poor crowds.

Mightn't MLS be better off financially adding 4 more weekends of matches, with 32 games (in a 16-team league) of income?

Plus 8 Championship League games if they make group play (which you'd think 5 MLS teams should make every year). So that suddenly become 18 mid-week games.
Do the playoffs draw less than regular season matches?

I don't have any attendance numbers on this.

MUFC_Niagara
03-18-2009, 10:06 PM
Your probably right about promotion/relegation. But the the play-offs don't seem to draw the biggest crowds. We loose almost a month of potential games, for 11 games, many with poor crowds.

Mightn't MLS be better off financially adding 4 more weekends of matches, with 32 games (in a 16-team league) of income?

Plus 8 Championship League games if they make group play (which you'd think 5 MLS teams should make every year). So that suddenly become 18 mid-week games.

Right, but with an increased squad 18 extra matches isn't a big deal....

MUFC_Niagara
03-18-2009, 10:07 PM
Do the playoffs draw less than regular season matches?

I don't have any attendance numbers on this.

That is an interesting question too, Jack. How could we find that info?

nfitz
03-18-2009, 10:14 PM
Do the playoffs draw less than regular season matches?

I don't have any attendance numbers on this.The quarter-finals seem to. If the numbers in Wikipedia are correct, the quarter-finals averaged 12,735 in 2006; 17,041 in 2007; and 14,372 in 2008.

Average regular season attendance averaged 15,504 in 2006 (http://web.mlsnet.com/stats/index.jsp?club=mls&year=2006); 16,770 in 2007 (http://web.mlsnet.com/stats/index.jsp?club=mls&year=2007); and 16,460 in 2008 (http://web.mlsnet.com/stats/index.jsp?club=mls&year=2008).

I haven't looked back any further, but in 2006 and 2008 the regular season was better that the quarter-finals, and in 2007 the quarter-finals were barely better than average (though the same year, the Rev's only drew 10,317 in a semi).

Jack
03-18-2009, 10:21 PM
The quarter-finals seem to. If the numbers in Wikipedia are correct, the quarter-finals averaged 12,735 in 2006; 17,041 in 2007; and 14,372 in 2008.

Average regular season attendance averaged 15,504 in 2006 (http://web.mlsnet.com/stats/index.jsp?club=mls&year=2006); 16,770 in 2007 (http://web.mlsnet.com/stats/index.jsp?club=mls&year=2007); and 16,460 in 2008 (http://web.mlsnet.com/stats/index.jsp?club=mls&year=2008).

I haven't looked back any further, but in 2006 and 2008 the regular season was better that the quarter-finals, and in 2007 the quarter-finals were barely better than average (though the same year, the Rev's only drew 10,317 in a semi).
Wow....what would it be? MLB post-season? NFL season starting?

nfitz
03-18-2009, 10:23 PM
Wow....what would it be? MLB post-season? NFL season starting?No pre-sold season ticket sales, some weekday games, and it's cold in November ... that's my guess at least.

Though you know BMO field would be sold out ...

MUFC_Niagara
03-18-2009, 10:23 PM
Wow....what would it be? MLB post-season? NFL season starting?

I think you're on to something there. But also traditionally in other playoff sports don't the first playoff rounds have smaller crowds>

Jack
03-18-2009, 10:24 PM
I think you're on to something there. But also traditionally in other playoff sports don't the first playoff rounds have smaller crowds>
Again, not something I've really looked into.

troy1982
03-18-2009, 10:26 PM
The schedule isn't balance now and has never been balance in MLS so don't expect to ever be balanced, I can't see the league going for a schedule of more than 32 games. This is one reason we have the conferences And I think we will see the return of the central conference with 18 teams(6/conference)

nfitz
03-18-2009, 10:31 PM
But also traditionally in other playoff sports don't the first playoff rounds have smaller crowds>Do they? Never really checked.

There's only 11 play-off games, and the quarter-finals account for 8 of them (why on earth aren't the semi's home-and-away!).

So the total average for play-off games isn't much better (15,179 for the eleven 2006 play-off games, a respectable 19,770 for the 2007, and 16,061 in 2008).


The schedule isn't balance now and has never been balance in MLS so don't expect to ever be balanced ...I'm betting 2010 will be balanced. Though your quite right, it may never be balanced ever again.

T_Mizz
03-18-2009, 10:36 PM
I think you'd need to start the season in february which isn't too much of a stretch because we were already in preseason by then we'll just need earlier preseasons which will all be indoors, then we'd go later too you may be looking at comfortably fitting these in no problem just two additional months

nfitz
03-18-2009, 10:48 PM
If we get grass, they'll be hard-pressed to playing in Feb. Temperatures aren't staying above freezing until at least the second week of March (it doesn't get earlier than this year).

But perhaps the really cold cities can play a couple of indoor games in Feb. ala Montreal's recent game at the Big O. We've got Skydome; not sure if Chicago and Boston have anything suitable. I'm not sure when Spring breaks in Denver and Salt Lake City - but the other cities are likely okay - though a bit touch and go in Columbus and New Jersey - though that didn't seem to stop the US national team playing in Columbus in Feb.

Cashcleaner
03-18-2009, 10:49 PM
^ Well, I'm assuming any grass pitch would be coming with a heating system included.

nfitz
03-18-2009, 10:57 PM
^ Well, I'm assuming any grass pitch would be coming with a heating system included.Yeah, it would have to. But how low can it go? It's probably fine at -2°C. But the high on March 2 this year was -10°C; let alone Feb!

I'm not familiar with the temperature ranges on these things - it just doesn't get that cold in England - and they were still cancelling games in fields this year- though mostly for safety reasons with respect to the seating, etc.

Jack
03-18-2009, 10:59 PM
I think troy1982's idea about a third conference is most likely.

Cashcleaner
03-18-2009, 11:11 PM
^ Shitty if true. :(

Ossington Mental Youth
03-18-2009, 11:19 PM
Third conference would be miserable and eastern conference would be that much harder to get out of

troy1982
03-18-2009, 11:25 PM
Third conference would be miserable and eastern conference would be that much harder to get out of

They can keep 2 division with 18 teams but one of Houston, FC Dallas or Colorado would have to move to the east and move back when we react 20 teams.
I think this is the most likely outcome.

But If we went to 3 conferences then it would look like this

West
San Jose Earthquakes
LA Galaxy
CD Chivas USA
Seattle Sounders FC
Vancouver Whitecaps
Portland Timbers

Central
Houston Dynamo
Real Salt Lake
FC Dallas
Colorado Rapids
Kansas City Wizards
Chicago Fire

East
Toronto FC
New York Red Bulls
DC United
New England Revolution
Columbus Crew
Philidelphia

Top 2 from each conference make the playoff and 2 wild cards.

Jack
03-18-2009, 11:29 PM
That's a bitch and a half of an eastern division!

troy1982
03-18-2009, 11:34 PM
That's a bitch and a half of an eastern division!

Yeah right now, but in 2 years the the central maybe be stronger

Yohan
03-18-2009, 11:42 PM
That's a bitch and a half of an eastern division!
With a salary cap, parity is usually preserved and it's a bit of crap shoot with squads.

Remember DC united last year?

I'm hoping same curse falls on bloody Columbus :p

Jack
03-18-2009, 11:53 PM
Yeah right now, but in 2 years the the central maybe be stronger


With a salary cap, parity is usually preserved and it's a bit of crap shoot with squads.

Remember DC united last year?

I'm hoping same curse falls on bloody Columbus :p

True enough.

DC will bounce back, though. They've been strong for a long time and the Revs are a solid team that always seems to be in the mix.

James17930
03-19-2009, 01:12 AM
But even with three conferences, that wouldn't necessarily solve anything, because . . . how many games would still get played? Would it be home/away with every team or not?

Plus, once you start having wild card teams, all you're really doing is taking the top 8 teams in the league anyway (because you can pretty much assume, though I realize it wouldn't always be the case, that the top two in each of the three conferences would equal the six best teams in the league, plus the next best two).

And once you do that, well, it's really just a single table, isn't it. The top eight teams in the league. So you don't need conferences.

The only way I see conferences being needed is is there were so many teams that they couldn't all possibly play each other, like 32+; then each conference would basically act as its own mini-league, and the champions play each other for the cup.

Otherwise, single table just makes the most sense for a home/away format.

VPjr
03-19-2009, 01:44 AM
if the schedule expands to 38 games, expect the rosters to expand accordingly to permit mid week fixtures at least 4-5 times per year.

the shrinking of the rosters to 24 players MIGHT (I'm not saying for sure) be a very temporary measure. Going into a tough economic year, there were some clubs pushing hard for cost reductions and axing the reserve league was a big cost savings for some clubs that are less flush with cash.

However, I can see the return of the 28 man roster with the new CBA. I can also see the expansion of the senior spots on the roster. I'm not sure we'll ever see a return of the reserve league though. I think teams will be on their own to find competitive games for their reserves.

I think the MLS, in all their "wisdom", has learned some lessons from trying to get away with skimpy roster sizes. I don't see this current situation persisting after this season. the new CBA will change alot (including the salary cap and possibly counting Canadians as domestic players)

Red CB Toronto
03-19-2009, 04:20 AM
I was looking at Arsenal's website and counted 59 players between the first team and reserves, that is why they have the depth for league play, FA Cup, Carling Cup etc, they can play a league game on a Saturday and put out a completely different starting 11 the next Tuesday for some sort of Cup match, I can't believe the MLS went ahead an shrunk the rosters this year, are teams going to even go out and set up their own reserve games.

KRO
03-19-2009, 08:51 AM
The argument between a European system with winning the league as the important goal and the North American system where the play-offs crown the 'champions' is interesting. Although my background is Europe and in theory I would prefer a proper league champion I don't see that working here. For the season to mean something into the last month for most teams you have to have qualification for continental cups and promotion/relegation. As it stands today in the EPL with just ever a month to go there are probably no teams who are both free of relegation worries and have no chance of getting into Europe. The lower leagues in England brought in a play-off system for the last promotion spot to increase interest to the end of the season. As we are unlikely to adopt more divisions with promotion/relegation here in North America and the continental cup does not seem to have much value then we have to stay with the play-off system.

Shway
03-19-2009, 11:18 AM
OKay when the league expands to 20 teams, you can almost guarantee that there will be some drastic changes to the league. Teams will be playing 38 games home and away, and plus the add-on games for US open Cup, Superliga, Champions League, that can equal out to some teams playing almost 45+ a season.

Now, i remember reading an article on soccerbyives, and it was regarding the fact that Sepp Blatter was issuing the MLS to have a August to April schedule to be more compliant with the FIFA schedule. I could see this happenning because teams could start in August get the break around mid november and starting back up again in Late february - early march.

With the league expanding, and growing i can see the roster sizes expanding to the most a 32 man roster, salary cap getting bigger, i can see the CBA increasing the leagues salary cap to more then the NBA's D-League and maybe 10 million by 2012 (am i dreaming?), which would probally just bring back the reserve league to be able to filter some of these players in games like the US Open Cup, ect. and use as a development source.

It could happen...:p

EDIT: And this would require BMO getting a ROOOF!!!!!

CenturySam
03-19-2009, 11:58 AM
The roster size must increase, even for this season we are only a couple of key injuries from tanking, like any club in the league.



i have nightmares of that. :(

relegated
03-19-2009, 02:56 PM
I expect MLS's long range plan is to get to 32 teams (like the other major North American leagues). A 30 game schedule will likely remain. The 32 teams would be divided into 4 divisions where you would play everyone in your own division home and away. You would also play one other division each year (you would play non-division teams once every three years).

cougars732
03-19-2009, 03:14 PM
havnt read full thread but heres my idea:

20 teams in MLS
Make USL the 2nd division by charging a 20 mill fee (clubs can pour in their own cash)
and add in relegation and promotion rules.
Now finishing last has some bitternes to it.

Shway
03-19-2009, 04:01 PM
^^^this could work.....
but there are alot of negatives to this

MUFC_Niagara
03-19-2009, 04:21 PM
^^^this could work.....
but there are alot of negatives to this

One of which being, the best teams in the league still make not make the playoffs....this the problem with a playoff system in general. eg - The NBA eastern conference.

troy1982
03-19-2009, 05:09 PM
havnt read full thread but heres my idea:

20 teams in MLS
Make USL the 2nd division by charging a 20 mill fee (clubs can pour in their own cash)
and add in relegation and promotion rules.
Now finishing last has some bitternes to it.

Why would MLS want to be involve with USL?
If MLS wants a 2nd division then they can just keep expanding and create one later. there is no need to get USL involve.

Shway
03-19-2009, 10:35 PM
^^and call it Minor League ?
yea i think USL should get involve because it will just be to much for a commisioner to look over two leagues!, and why not join if its there

and how long would that process be of making a 2nd division

kodiakTFC
03-19-2009, 10:39 PM
superliga = a two country uefa cup. It is not that big of a deal but if it makes money, why not keep it around.

kodiakTFC
03-19-2009, 10:41 PM
By the way, 2 divisions with relegation doesn't work in a world with such a low salary cap. Two years ago Columbus was awful, now they are amazing. We sucked last year, we'll be pretty good this year. When you have a 2-3 million dollar cap, teams in the 2 divisions would be equal.

cougars732
03-19-2009, 11:34 PM
Why would MLS want to be involve with USL?
If MLS wants a 2nd division then they can just keep expanding and create one later. there is no need to get USL involve.

^^
because cities wont make a bid to become a tier 2 team....
if USL joins its already a league and doesnt require any bids. They would be glad to have a shot at getting into MLS this way.

also for the stadium issue. 20mill entrance fee would be used to rent venues for the games (if possible) until each team finds a proper home field facility.

Is this unrealistic? Probably.
But this expansion would benefit both leagues as well as end the conference bullshit we have.
ONE table is success. American lifestyle can play second fiddle to this im sure.

flatpicker
03-20-2009, 12:19 AM
There are a couple of scenarios that I would be fine with which have been discussed in past threads...

I shall quote myself from the following thread-
http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=7584&highlight=salary+cap

I think the league could make the East and West more independent of each other.
Only a few inter-league matches per season.
Crown an East Champ and a West Champ.
Have those two face off for the MLS Cup.
That way you are guaranteed to have the best team in the final.
And it would be a good fight to determine what division/league is best, East or West...

it's a system that works well with baseball's American and National Leagues.
Yes, they do have a playoff format... but it is very exclusive considering how few teams make the post season (and there are far more clubs in MLB than MLS)
and the second bit I will quote Hitcho because he seemed to sum up my feelings well in this thread-
from here: http://www.redpatchboys.ca/forums/showthread.php?t=7976&highlight=promotion+relegation&page=2


under a two tier MLS system you keep the good bits (eg, the league winner is crowned league champion without the lottery of the play offs, and you get the excitement of a knock-out competition through an MLS cup format not the leagues) but you avoid the bad bits (no-one can get uber-rich and dominate because of the centralised MLS finances and relegation doesn't lead to implosion because you can only drop down one league and you're still able to compete with the other teams on a level financial playing field).

What you get is two leagues, promoted as being under the same MLS umbrella without the risk of being relegated out of MLS, operating as a side by side system but with the chance to be reassigned form one league to the other depending on where you finish. All of the teams will eventually go into both leagues because of the way the system works in MLS. but it means you get two league winners based on a genuine league, and no-one usurping the tile of MLS Champs after finishing 8th in the league. That has to be a good thing, no? The "come from nowehere glory path" is also still alive through a genuine MLS Cup on a knockout basis.

So, all of the thinsg you want to see kept in place will remain in place, but the MLS system becomes more resepctable around the world and you get a genuine league and league champion system.

As for the fans disappearing if you get reasigned to the lower league, the marketing of the two leagues as both being MLS and with regular flow between the leagues of teams on an equal footing should rpevent that. What no-one has managed toi explain to me yet is this - if fans are so fickle that they'll disappear if a team gets reassigned to the lower MLS league where they have a really good chance of going straight back up again and will l;ikely be playing some "glamorous" names anyway, then why won;t those same fans disappear half way though the season once the league expands and they go out of play off contention early on? You cannot say SSH will be captured for the seaosn because we know at BMO Field that's not true. So, either the sport is fucked and will never be free of this, or the fact is a two tier system will leave us no worse off in that respect and may even be benefical since there will be two sets of league winners and league losers to generate interest, not just two conference winners.

Cashcleaner
03-20-2009, 01:27 AM
superliga = a two country uefa cup. It is not that big of a deal but if it makes money, why not keep it around.

But it doesn't really make any money and the MLS players don't like how they only receive a fraction of the prize money. CONCACAF Champions League is the wave of the future.

Asdie from that, if MLS can't operate with a single table home-and-away schedule, then I say the second-best course of action is to take the NFL's lead and go to a system of independent conferences with teams from each only playing against each other in the playoffs. Let's consider a 24-team MLS with two conferences; one East and one West.

MLS Eastern Conference

Toronto
Ottawa
Montreal
St. Louis
Atlanta
Miami
New York
DC
Philadelphia
New England
Chicago
Columbus

MLS Western Conference

Vancouver
Seattle
Las Vegas
Portland
Los Angeles
Chivas
San Jose
Salt Lake
Colorado
Dallas
Houston
Kansas City

Ossington Mental Youth
03-20-2009, 01:33 AM
Superliga will definitely fall to the background if it already hasnt

StandUpIfYouHateChelsea
03-20-2009, 01:42 AM
Not really there is no reason TFC could not have opened at home this weekend..ok it might be cool...but it might be cool and pouring/snowing April 4 so lets get TFC to open the season at Home next year.

ugh i know or they should open at Rogers Centre or something , im tired of all this road game BS to start i want tfc NOW!

Ossington Mental Youth
03-20-2009, 01:56 AM
costs 2 million to rent the rogers centre and im sure Rogers would jack up the prices cuz its MLSE