Sutton not that bad!

[Lucky Strike]

I looked through the pretty extensive records MLS keeps.

http://web.mlsnet.com/stats/index.jsp?club=mls&year=2008

Pay particular attention to the GKs' save %. Sutton is 4th and accomplished that with a defence we all pretty much agree sucked.

We're all aware that Sutton stood on his head yet let in some howlers last year so opinion is often divided on whether he's good or not. Given this, what do you think? Has your opinion changed because of this? Should he be considered the starter?

[Roogsy]

Sutton has his weak spots...(down low anyone?)...but he has lots of positive aspects to his game that overcome the few weak spots. I think he is a very good keeper. Solid back there, in a team with defensive woes, you need that.

[Blazer]

With an average defensive line and an offensively powerful midfield/forward group that keeps opponents’ mids and forwards thinking defensively themselves, Sutts is all we need back there. His weaknesses are well documented however he will not be the reason for our failure or success in the coming season.

[TorontoBlades]

he can make excellent saves - but has difficulty on low shots because of his height, and that translates to a poor percentage on penalty kicks, which I think he's 0-for since coming to TFC.

other than that, he's a solid keeper and the only thing that puzzles me about his game is his decision making in distributing the ball...he's much too reactive and I would have thought better judgement coming from a player of his experience

[nick.mastro]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6teKl_-95eQ

:P

[JonO]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6teKl_-95eQ

:P
Well there goes the 0-for theory on pk's...

I think he is a very good shot blocker, but needs to work on ball distribution..

[olegunnar]

It's too bad that we have been able to upgrade our front line (vitti) upgrade our midfield (DeRo) and upgrade our defense (serioux) but we're stuck with "he's not that bad" goalkeeping.

It'd be nice to have a keeper people were excited about and confident in, rather than a keeper that people make excuses for.

[Roogsy]

It's too bad that we have been able to upgrade our front line (vitti) upgrade our midfield (DeRo) and upgrade our defense (serioux) but we're stuck with "he's not that bad" goalkeeping.

It'd be nice to have a keeper people were excited about and confident in, rather than a keeper that people make excuses for.

For the money we are paying him, he isn't something you can say "not bad" to. Solid. Dependable. Consistent. That is what this team needs, not another demand for a superstar.

[Lucky Strike]

It's too bad that we have been able to upgrade our front line (vitti) upgrade our midfield (DeRo) and upgrade our defense (serioux) but we're stuck with "he's not that bad" goalkeeping.

It'd be nice to have a keeper people were excited about and confident in, rather than a keeper that people make excuses for.

True. But I wanted to phrase the title in such a way as to contradict those who say Sutton is a bad keeper. Speaking for myself, I do view him as "good" as opposed to "not bad".

[maninb]

As a keeper who has played at a very high level I agree with most of what's been said about Sutton...he's adequate for now, especially with Frei in the background but what drives me mad is how a 6'4 keeper like Sutton REFUSES to come for crosses and his distribution is PATHETIC!!!

[T_Mizz]

I've been thinking this all along he can steal some games for us. I like his shot blocking ability and with a more solid defense in front of him the shots will all be from farther out where Sutton is one of the best keepers in the MLS at stopping, mostly due to his size.

[T_Mizz]

As a keeper who has played at a very high level I agree with most of what's been said about Sutton...he's adequate for now, especially with Frei in the background but what drives me mad is how a 6'4 keeper like Sutton REFUSES to come for crosses and his distribution is PATHETIC!!!
He's 6'6 isn't he? Sorry I'm just a stickler for details but that makes your point all the more valid

[Mr. Bigby]

Thanks, Nick. An excellent compilation. We need to be reminded that there have been more than a few games over the last two years that Sutton was the only thing that kept things from being a total blow out! On balance, we've been lucky to have G.S. on our side.

[Roogsy]

I agree.

Keepers are always scapegoats. We have different problems on our team that need attention. In the net is not one of them.

[olegunnar]

Solid. Dependable. Consistent. That is what this team needs, not another demand for a superstar.

This is the first time I've ever agreed with you.

I bet though we'll go back to disagreeing when you try to tell me that Sutton exemplifies those qualities.

I think it would suck to play in front of him. You'd do your job and then be made to look bad when he gives up a howler. Or you do your job and clear the ball for a corner, only to have him have paralysis through analysis on the corner and hang out in no mans land. Or you do your job and not get a heads up from the keeper that you're out of position and boom...play someone onside...or boom...have a guy make a run behind you unseen and you look like the fool.

Yes it's true we gave the ball away cheaply which led to undue pressure, and yes it's true we do a bad job of closing down people so they have a harder time of putting in crosses...but I think it would absolutley suck to play infront of Sutton...a career killer as a centre half.

Edit to bring it back to point.
He's not Solid
He's not dependable. No one disputes he gives up howlers.
He's not consistent. He'll play great one game, and give away the next

[T_Mizz]

^^True the real problem for the most part is the poor Defense letting opponents get easy shots

[trane]

My question with Sutton is rebounds he seems to allow to many, and that puts the ball into dangrous positions for us.

[Roogsy]

This is the first time I've ever agreed with you.

I bet though we'll go back to disagreeing when you try to tell me that Sutton exemplifies those qualities.

I think it would suck to play in front of him. You'd do your job and then be made to look bad when he gives up a howler. Or you do your job and clear the ball for a corner, only to have him have paralysis through analysis on the corner and hang out in no mans land. Or you do your job and not get a heads up from the keeper that you're out of position and boom...play someone onside...or boom...have a guy make a run behind you unseen and you look like the fool.

Yes it's true we gave the ball away cheaply which led to undue pressure, and yes it's true we do a bad job of closing down people so they have a harder time of putting in crosses...but I think it would absolutley suck to play infront of Sutton...a career killer as a centre half.

Edit to bring it back to point.
He's not Solid
He's not dependable. No one disputes he gives up howlers.
He's not consistent. He'll play great one game, and give away the next

A matter of opinion I suppose. I do find he holds these qualities. I can't think of many times during the past two seasons (or any times at all for that matter) where I honestly came away from a game thinking the problem with the team was the goalkeeping. I don't remember any games where he played great one game and "gave away" the next. Maybe he wasn't spectacular, but asking a keeper to be spectacular from game to game is not reasonable in this league I believe, or in most leagues for that matter.

[T_Mizz]

He may give up an easy goal or two now and then but these instances seem to be few and far between, most of the tim these get exaggerated heavily. I think he has had more outstanding games where he kept us in (and saved our CB's asses) than lousy games (where he killed our CB's careers).

[trane]

^ I do not think that he is horrible, but I do not thinkg he is solid, dependable and consistent enough.

The problem I have rating him, is that there has been games in which he has saved us points, but there has been almost as many games in which he was at least partialy to blame for lossing points.

[pimpslapt]

It's too bad that we have been able to upgrade our front line (vitti) upgrade our midfield (DeRo) and upgrade our defense (serioux) but we're stuck with "he's not that bad" goalkeeping.

It'd be nice to have a keeper people were excited about and confident in, rather than a keeper that people make excuses for.


i have total confidence in him, i think he's fucking mint and he's come up with big saves for us time after time, i don't know how or why anyone doubts him, its fucked

[trane]

By the way our CBs killed their own careers, and more then that our defensive record is not just our CBs or Sutton.

[Roogsy]

Goalkeepers are easy scapegoats on teams with defensive problems.

[trane]

^ Agreed, that is why, I for one will reseve complete judgment until I see him this season.

[ensco]

Not everything that can be counted counts, and not everything that counts can be counted.

[TorontoBlades]

understood, but it still doesn't explain his reluctance to come out and snag a corner or cross - given is size and ability to use his hands....and also his distribution, he may even be better suited to take a page out of Adam Braz's books....when in doubt, kick it out!

[BleedRed]

Saying that Sutton killed CB's careers is some stupid ignorant shit...Sutton is a solid keeper for the MLS and there's no doubt about that in my mind.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

understood, but it still doesn't explain his reluctance to come out and snag a corner or cross - given is size and ability to use his hands....and also his distribution, he may even be better suited to take a page out of Adam Braz's books....when in doubt, kick it out!

that can be said for the majority of our defenders tho, lord knows how many times ive seen them piss about with that fucking ball

Im a fan. I dont think hes gods gift to goal keeping but on the same hand hes not nearly as bad as people make him out to be and i think replacing him with these rookies is ridiculous. I think a better defence might allow him to prove himself and in turn allow for a better judgement of his capabilities.

[TorontoBlades]

he's not as bad as people make him out to be. you're absolutely right about the defending - my thing is that the knocks that I have on him, are things that should be easily correctable...and I haven't seen any evidence of that in two seasons to date

now, I'm a fan of Suttons as well, good on the pitch and great off the pitch....my question is, does a "good" keeper win championships?


my thing is, he's our best keeper right now....but I'm willing to bet the time comes sooner than people think that Frei becomes a better keeper - he simply has more upside IMO than Sutton

[Roogsy]

he's not as bad as people make him out to be. you're absolutely right about the defending - my thing is that the knocks that I have on him, are things that should be easlity correctable...and I haven't seen any evidence of that in two seasons to date

now, I'm a fan of Suttons as well, good on the pitch and great off the pitch....my question is, does a "good" keeper win championships?

Not on his own, no. But then again, no keeper, no matter how good he is can win a championship with a half-assed defensive line in front of him.

[TorontoBlades]

....but he can lose one by distributing to the other team in extra time, like he did last season

a great keeper, doesn't make a good team great...but rather keeps a good team good, and a great team great....that's my fear that we may drop points again on a brain fart....that said, Sutts is easily an acceptable keeper by MLS standards

[TFC Via Buffalo]

I'm biased on this as I think Brian Edwards has a load of potential and should be in instead of Sutton. His distribution is much better then Suttons and he is younger/quicker. I really don't feel he's had a good chance to show what he can do as he's played infront of the same bad D as Sutton has.

My question is, what do you think is holding him back? Is it because Sutton is established? Is Sutton that much better? I would just like him to get a legit shot. He must have something coaches like, because he almost got called up by the USMNT for the game before we played Mexico.

[Yohan]

I'm biased on this as I think Brian Edwards has a load of potential and should be in instead of Sutton. His distribution is much better then Suttons and he is younger/quicker. I really don't feel he's had a good chance to show what he can do as he's played infront of the same bad D as Sutton has.

My question is, what do you think is holding him back? Is it because Sutton is established? Is Sutton that much better? I would just like him to get a legit shot. He must have something coaches like, because he almost got called up by the USMNT for the game before we played Mexico.
Edwards did get his share of chances and it seems that Carver didn't rate him higher than Sutton.

Although, Sutton did have some great games earlier in the season and that set the bar pretty high for Edwards to top

[TorontoBlades]

^ I think Frei has more upside, but Sutts is better than the both of them today

If I we're JC, I'd feature Edwards against RSL this Saturday - because I think he's has heaps of potential - and his distribution is the best I've seen keeping for TFC, by a wide margin at that

I think Edwards will be a solid keeper and might come back to haunt us, when Sutts becomes our Keeper coach and frei is in Europe - he will be a very good keeper in this league before he finishes playing

[TorontoBlades]

I just hope we can get some value for him soon, before we waste the poor guys potential...and market value

[Yalomed]

he's not as bad as people make him out to be. you're absolutely right about the defending - my thing is that the knocks that I have on him, are things that should be easily correctable...and I haven't seen any evidence of that in two seasons to date

now, I'm a fan of Suttons as well, good on the pitch and great off the pitch....my question is, does a "good" keeper win championships?


my thing is, he's our best keeper right now....but I'm willing to bet the time comes sooner than people think that Frei becomes a better keeper - he simply has more upside IMO than Sutton


Depends on your definition of "good". Unlike hockey where a goalie can win you a cup, football is not that easy. Obviously you'd need your keeper to contribute rather than be a liability but teams can win with a mediocre keeper even, in MLS anyway. I think Toronto FC can if our outfield gets straightened out this term even though I agree Sutton's frustrating weaknesses like shots from Lakeshore squeezing by him annoy the hell out of me too. There's good things of Sutton's game however which are pleasing like his reaction ability and 1 on 1 as well so I'm confident he wouldn't be a liability.

Haven't seen Frei but all fingers point to him being a promising kid coming up which if he pans out makes Sutton expendible for perhaps an upgrade somewhere else. However the situation develops, there are more pressing issues which need to be addressed than our goalkeepers anyway.

[Yohan]

I think Carver should make a GK decision AFTER this season, when he has a good look at both Edwards and Frei and decide what he wants for the team

[nimamalek]

possibly the best pure shot blocker in the league (low or high) he has issues with managing his box if anything

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Curious to see if the new goalkeeping coach will make a difference.
In all honesty i do think Edwards is good but a bit too big for his britches, i can remember numerous times where he would pull an unnecessary stunt (ie head butting the ball when he could have caught it and thrown it) as opposed to something standard (or even advanced). Basically dude made some cocky rookie mistakes which didnt impress me.

Im curious about Frei. Curious to see what the talk is about, that being said i still dont think hes ready to take starting position having never played an MLS game in his life.

[TFC Via Buffalo]

possibly the best pure shot blocker in the league (low or high) he has issues with managing his box if anything

They have pills for that sort of thing.

[TorontoBlades]

^ zing

[Cashcleaner]

Sutton's been given a lot of flak for bad performances that really should have been given to the defence. Yeah, he's got a bit of a problem with faster shots staying close to the ground and I think his distribution could be a bit better, but as a GK in MLS, he's one of the better ones.

[dannyd]

I'm glad this thread came up because one of my biggest problem with our team is Sutton. When it comes to making saves I would say he's ok to good for MLS. But these days the keeper HAS to have leadership and communication skills back there. Sutton is just too old school for me... refuses to play the ball out. And honestly, I wonder about his intellegence - not exactly the brightest bulb in the place.
Unfortunately these days as a keeper you have to be more than a shot stopper and Sutton needs to be replaced.
Just my opinion...

[colman1860]

Just wrote a goalkeeping preview on my blog - check it out and let me know your thoughts:

http://torontofc.theoffside.com/uncategorized/season-preview-goalkeeping.html

[Mrs. Workie]

Sutton's been given a lot of flak for bad performances that really should have been given to the defence. Yeah, he's got a bit of a problem with faster shots staying close to the ground and I think his distribution could be a bit better, but as a GK in MLS, he's one of the better ones.


Thank you Cash. People need to realize that if Sutton has to make a save, every guy in front of him fucked up. Sure he's let in some bad goals. But our offense also missed a lot of good chances.


There's a reason he was voted player of the year by U-Sector.