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View Full Version : Toronto FC must fix its centre of defence - now



johnmolinaro
03-09-2009, 04:49 PM
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/blogs/2009/03/toronto_fc_must_fix_its_centre.html

I'm sure some (most?) of you disagree, but I think there is genuine reason to be concerned.

rocker
03-09-2009, 04:54 PM
i don't disagree on the general premise.. but i find the constant talk about Serioux's recklessness to be a bit much. For example, the player held up as a great example in the story, Jimmy Conrad, gets as many cards as Serioux does. Actually, in some seasons Conrad has earned more cards than Serioux.

i think it's more likely Serioux will get injured than be more reckless than the typical defender.

djking2
03-09-2009, 05:02 PM
A real CB would be great but I don't see the point of demanding Velez immediate departure or fabricating history for a guy who got 3 cautions and 1 red card last year.

You're right Rocker I'd bet he misses more games to injury than he does to discipline

Flipityflu
03-09-2009, 05:06 PM
yep, that one lone red card in his MLS career is very very worrisome.

not to say i don't agree that we need another CB though :)

trane
03-09-2009, 05:18 PM
I do not disagree with the article, I do disagree with you assessment of Attakora, I think he is good and could be great.

johnmolinaro
03-09-2009, 05:22 PM
what's worrisome for me isn't Serioux (I think he's a solid addition to the team) but that he doesn't have another central defender to work with.

I think it's a mistake for the club to look to him to anchor the defence on his own, and I believe the team needs an experienced central defender to partner Serioux at the back.

For me, a Serioux-Velez or Serioux-Harmse pairing at the back is reason for concern.

just my two cents, though.

arbogast
03-09-2009, 05:28 PM
what's worrisome for me isn't Serioux (I think he's a solid addition to the team) but that he doesn't have another central defender to work with.

I think it's a mistake for the club to look to him to anchor the defence on his own, and I believe the team needs an experienced central defender to partner Serioux at the back.

For me, a Serioux-Velez or Serioux-Harmse pairing at the back is reason for concern.

just my two cents, though.
I agree with that. Your analysis on how both Serioux and Harmse are esentially playing out of position was spot on. I was put at ease with Serioux joining the squad, but now after reading your piece I'm worried again.

TFC 420
03-09-2009, 05:28 PM
rumour out of SC says that there will be a CB signing on Friday.

nimamalek
03-09-2009, 05:30 PM
I was hoping for a better pairing than Serioux-Harmse as well, but Harmse was one of our best players last game. I think the position might be his to lose.

UltraSuperMegaMo
03-09-2009, 05:32 PM
I agree that TFC could use an established central defender, particularly in that Harmse and Serioux are both playing out of their comfort zone at CB.

However, I still think we need another attacker (preferably someone who can play the wide positions and in the centre) and I feel our biggest problem this season is going to be playing Guevara and De Ro together.

Stryker
03-09-2009, 05:33 PM
Somtimes the best defence is a good offence.

;)

Nuvinho
03-09-2009, 05:41 PM
I will be happy when 1 more CB comes in.

Nuvinho
03-09-2009, 05:44 PM
Why is South Africa mentioned in the article. It's my home country, but we don't have any good CBs (that I know of).

UltraSuperMegaMo
03-09-2009, 05:48 PM
Why is South Africa mentioned in the article. It's my home country, but we don't have any good CBs (that I know of).

Iím guessing it was intended to read "Europe or South American".

Nuvinho
03-09-2009, 05:53 PM
Iím guessing it was intended to read "Europe or South American".

hahaha...okay....I know Kevin Harmse is South African...but he already plays for Canada.

I really don't care where the new CB is from as long as he is an experienced CB that can control the backline.

ensco
03-09-2009, 06:19 PM
I wish they would have the spot filled already, but it wouldn't kill us (imho) if we wait to fill that spot until the euro season ends in May.

What killed us last year was having 4 different important players (Guevara, Robert, Ricketts, Tebily) come in after the season started. That's too much midseason activity/destabilization.

But one guy? That's MLS life, I think.

mclaren
03-09-2009, 06:29 PM
Fully agree John - good article.

TFCREDNWHITE
03-09-2009, 06:39 PM
Yup, Great article John. I fully agree that we are still lacking in the Defence Dept.

this is so true:

Velez, Harmse and Gyan are not starters, they're late-game substitutes (at best); players that can come on in the final minutes of the game, or be used in an emergency when the regular starters are injured, suspended or away on international duty.

cougars732
03-09-2009, 06:39 PM
i think starting Robbo back there for the beginning is a good idea
play a 4 4 2 on D
and can push up when we have ball to a 3 1 4 2

cougars732
03-09-2009, 06:40 PM
or a 3 2 3 2

TFCREDNWHITE
03-09-2009, 06:42 PM
Robbo is NOT a defender....He doesn't like playing that role and his services should not be used in that part of the park!.

cougars732
03-09-2009, 06:44 PM
only till a solution is found

tfc
03-09-2009, 06:45 PM
Robbo is NOT a defender....He doesn't like playing that role and his services should not be used in that part of the park!.

whyyyyy woooonnnnt tthhhiiiis idddeeaaaaaa diiiiieeeeee?

TFCREDNWHITE
03-09-2009, 06:48 PM
whyyyyy woooonnnnt tthhhiiiis idddeeaaaaaa diiiiieeeeee?

not sure :noidea:

Shakes McQueen
03-09-2009, 07:19 PM
what's worrisome for me isn't Serioux (I think he's a solid addition to the team) but that he doesn't have another central defender to work with.

I think it's a mistake for the club to look to him to anchor the defence on his own, and I believe the team needs an experienced central defender to partner Serioux at the back.

For me, a Serioux-Velez or Serioux-Harmse pairing at the back is reason for concern.

just my two cents, though.

Would your opinion change, if we end up signing Christanval?

- Scott

ensco
03-09-2009, 07:39 PM
whyyyyy woooonnnnt tthhhiiiis idddeeaaaaaa diiiiieeeeee?

ummm, I don't know, maybe because Carver used him there last Saturday when Serioux went off?

johnmolinaro
03-09-2009, 07:39 PM
Would your opinion change, if we end up signing Christanval?

- Scott

Yes, it would change.

Roogsy
03-09-2009, 07:41 PM
I have to agree with John's article.

TFC_Toon
03-09-2009, 07:43 PM
I think the club has done very well this off season in boulstering the squad in the required positions, but I think we would all agree we have one glaring hole and that is at the CB postion. One more hole to fill Mo, you can do it.

Then again, with the roster limitations, we're only a couple of injuries away from struggling, like most clubs I suppose, but it is sure to happen along the way.

For the moment though you have to be encouraged with our chances for the upcoming season :)

Yohan
03-09-2009, 07:57 PM
ummm, I don't know, maybe because Carver used him there last Saturday when Serioux went off?
yeah. it was a temporary solution to serioux being sent off

temporary!

DOMIN8R
03-09-2009, 07:58 PM
I take it one step further. I would say that Serioux is an outright liability based on what I saw on Saturday. I hope that he can develop a little more discipline by the start of the season.

Thanks for the article, John.

Beach_Red
03-09-2009, 08:11 PM
I wish they would have the spot filled already, but it wouldn't kill us (imho) if we wait to fill that spot until the euro season ends in May.

What killed us last year was having 4 different important players (Guevara, Robert, Ricketts, Tebily) come in after the season started. That's too much midseason activity/destabilization.

But one guy? That's MLS life, I think.

You're right, adding a player after the Euro season ends won't be a problem.

And those guys coming after the season started last year didn't kill us - two of them leaving before the season ended killed us.

Don Julio
03-09-2009, 10:09 PM
Does Serioux get to play Wednesday? Not sure if suspensions count in pre-season. It's not like it was a straight red..

poppamidnight
03-09-2009, 10:19 PM
John, I for the most part agree w/ you,

but theres one piece in your article that got under my skin:


Velez, Harmse and Gyan are not starters, they're late-game substitutes (at best); players that can come on in the final minutes of the game, or be used in an emergency when the regular starters are injured, suspended or away on international duty.Nana is starter-worthy....

...Just not CB...

Nana is our Wynne replacement, and he was the best player on the pitch when we had him in that position (okay maybe not "the best", but high up there...he amazed)

I am really not sure where this myth of Nana being a CB originated from,

but it's really ticking me off that people are still on about it:

NANA is our Wynne replacement,
He's being groomed for when we sell Wynne,

So can we please stop assuming he's in line for the CB spot already?

Completely different positions

ExiledRed
03-09-2009, 10:22 PM
Does Serioux get to play Wednesday? Not sure if suspensions count in pre-season. It's not like it was a straight red..

According to Paul, Adrian can play.

James Oliphant
03-10-2009, 12:05 AM
It's funny that Molinaro should mention Jimmy Conrad, because I've been hearing rumblings that Mo is working to bring him here from KC in a trade. Maybe John's hearing the same rumours as me.

The price might be a little too steep...but Conrad would be marvellous and would certainly help us win.

[/notsosubtlehint]

Roogsy
03-10-2009, 12:12 AM
Holy crap...that would be a major coup.

Conrad is a solid back. A consistent all-star. And very fan friendly.

Nuvinho
03-10-2009, 12:15 AM
wow!!! Conrad is one MLS defender who I think has stood the test of time. I don't know how Mo can do it.

James Oliphant
03-10-2009, 12:17 AM
Even at the not-so-subtley-hinted-at price? ;)

Nuvinho
03-10-2009, 12:17 AM
It will probably take Jo.Smith, Frei/Edwards, and something else.

Dunkers
03-10-2009, 12:21 AM
KC isnt just going to let the face of team walk out of town for nothing...i bet they are asking ALOT, like Guvera (an attacking option of feed the ball to lopez, so he isnt a total waste of a million bucks)

And that would leave NO experience on the back line, eveyone has less then 2 years in the MLS on D in KC, Chance Myers ancoring the D?

Sounds nice, but i just dont see KC wanting to make that deal

James Oliphant
03-10-2009, 12:24 AM
You guys might wanna re-read the last bit of my post.

Dunkers
03-10-2009, 12:29 AM
The only place wynne is going is over seas in order to install a grass pitch, end of.

dantdot
03-10-2009, 12:29 AM
That would be quite the trade, I doubt it, who'd play right back?

Ossington Mental Youth
03-10-2009, 12:46 AM
re: Jimmy Conrad, ill believe it when i see it

James Oliphant
03-10-2009, 02:34 AM
So will I. Like I said, my source only says Mo's trying to get it done. Not that it is done or that it's close to being done.

ensco
03-10-2009, 06:25 AM
KC will never trade Conrad.

He's Brennan x5 for them.

He's totally critical to them on the field, and the face of the team to the community, and the season ticket holders.

ensco
03-10-2009, 06:30 AM
yeah. it was a temporary solution to serioux being sent off

temporary!

Face it, Carver put Robinson back there at CB

(i) with other CBs on the bench, and
(ii) in a game with unlimited substitutions

I get not liking it, but this is no mass hallucination we're having, Robinson is going to get minutes at CB.

Yohan
03-10-2009, 06:38 AM
Face it, Carver put Robinson back there at CB

(i) with other CBs on the bench, and
(ii) in a game with unlimited substitutions

I get not liking it, but this is no mass hallucination we're having, Robinson is going to get minutes at CB.
note that Carver used only one sub, treating the game like it's a real regular season game than a friendly

who would you sub off to put in a defender if you're carver, when robbo could be used as a temp CB, and save that sub for possible late game situation?

Yohan
03-10-2009, 06:40 AM
re: Jimmy Conrad, ill believe it when i see it
me too.

but Conrad is 32 and has few years left. KC just might be willing to trade if they want to rebuild and buy some young guys with Conrad

TorontoBlades
03-10-2009, 08:02 AM
KC will never trade Conrad.

He's Brennan x5 for them.

He's totally critical to them on the field, and the face of the team to the community, and the season ticket holders.


really? not even for a better chance to "wyn"

I'm sorry James, I can't beleive they haven't clicked in yet ;)

canadian_bhoy
03-10-2009, 08:20 AM
We had the same issue up front last year that we have at the back this year. A glaring hole that doesn't seem to want to be plugged.

I don't think Mo is sitting back and thinking that Serioux is the answer to the equation, I'm sure Mo knows that he needs more strength in the middle of the club's defense - but once again this seems like a "fallen through deal". Not being in the US, plus the turf and climate give Mo a unique difficulty to sign players.

Mo also seems to get his heart set on players, if we sign them, it's great, but if the deal falls through (which I bet a couple have at CB), then we are left with holes in the boat.

johnmolinaro
03-10-2009, 08:22 AM
John, I for the most part agree w/ you,

but theres one piece in your article that got under my skin:

Nana is starter-worthy....

...Just not CB...

Nana is our Wynne replacement, and he was the best player on the pitch when we had him in that position (okay maybe not "the best", but high up there...he amazed)

I am really not sure where this myth of Nana being a CB originated from,

but it's really ticking me off that people are still on about it:

NANA is our Wynne replacement,
He's being groomed for when we sell Wynne,

So can we please stop assuming he's in line for the CB spot already?

Completely different positions

John Carver said in the off-season he sees Nana as a possible CB. that's where all of this started.
John

rocker
03-10-2009, 08:27 AM
John Carver said in the off-season he sees Nana as a possible CB. that's where all of this started.
John

this is exactly what i was thinking.. he has the size, the strength and the brains for the position.

but for some reason people keep going around saying Nana is not a CB and is being groomed to be a RB. No he isn't. He's a young kid and he can go in either position.. just as Harmse can move from midfield to defense or Serioux can be a defensive midfielder and then is moved to play RB and CB.
Nana should not be put into a mould at such a young age. He has the talent to be either.

Nuvinho
03-10-2009, 08:27 AM
If it is the proposed deal mentioned in this thread. I would actually do the deal. Here is why, you guys can let me know what you think.

Pros:
1. With the aging core of players (Guevara, Robbo, Dichio, DeRo)....you will need to win soon. Conrad had a few years left.
2. You get a team leader, a CB who knows the league and its players.
3. Don't think he'll miss about 1/3 of the season due to international duties
4. You will have Conrad here next year and the year after, you may not have Wynne here next year.

Cons:
1. The speed
2. The creativity lost from the back, with the overlapping runs
3. The money you get when sold to a European club

ensco
03-10-2009, 09:09 AM
That deal should make no sense to KC.

KC should not trade the face of their team for 3-6 months of Marvell, plus a whack of cash (Mo of course would try to keep some or most of any transfer, this is how Freddy Adu's deal from DC to RSL worked)....

unless KC are in very dire straits financially. That could be.

This does makes sense from our point of view, as we just watched Anselmi/Peddie swallow most of the Edu transfer (remember how Mo asked for grass with the Edu proceeds, and got publicly shot down by Anselmi?). Mo probably would like to figure out how to get a playing asset this time.

Ossington Mental Youth
03-10-2009, 09:19 AM
This does makes sense from our point of view, as we just watched Anselmi/Peddie swallow most of the Edu transfer (remember how Mo asked for grass with the Edu proceeds, and got publicly shot down by Anselmi?). Mo probably would like to figure out how to get a playing asset this time.


please expand, im not entirely sure i understand as the transfer money is to be used within the MLS (ie within other transfers, allocations, academy etc) and cant be used by MLSE (also as mentioned many times previously the grass issue is primarily a prob with the government as opposed to MLSE)

ensco
03-10-2009, 09:32 AM
please expand, im not entirely sure i understand as the transfer money is to be used within the MLS (ie within other transfers, allocations, academy etc) and cant be used by MLSE (also as mentioned many times previously the grass issue is primarily a prob with the government as opposed to MLSE)

There are others who can do this more precisely....

MLSE received $3.3 million for Edu. Two-thirds were supposed to be used for "player development" or some such. So where did our $2.2 million go? Mo wanted to use it towards grass.

I know some small portion of that (maybe $500K? I'm guessing) is in this year's allocation, but where did the rest of it the $2.2 million go?

DOMIN8R
03-10-2009, 09:36 AM
There are others who can do this more precisely....

MLSE received $3.3 million for Edu. Two-thirds were supposed to be used for "player development" or some such. So where did our $2.2 million go? Mo wanted to use it towards grass.

I know some small portion of that (maybe $500K? I'm guessing) is in this year's allocation, but where did the rest of it the $2.2 million go?

Probably earmarked for training facilties and related capital costs.;)

jloome
03-10-2009, 09:44 AM
note that Carver used only one sub, treating the game like it's a real regular season game than a friendly

who would you sub off to put in a defender if you're carver, when robbo could be used as a temp CB, and save that sub for possible late game situation?

Robbo is their principal distributor from the final third/middle third of the pitch. So put down to 10 men, it makes more tactical sense to move him back than to bring on another defender, if you're trying to hold up your offensive shape.


Carver probably just saw more in going for the win than in bunkering down by withdrawing an offensive player to add a defender, that's all. Given Charleston's inability to compete 11-on-10, it would appear to have been the right one.

So I don't expect to see Carl Robinson as a starting centre half any time soon.

AS for the main contention, it's way too early to make those kind of judgments. We've seen Harmse and Serioux as centre halfs for about five minutes, comparatively speaking, and you need three or four games before you can see if a pairing is gelling. Serioux certianly can't be judged, given that he's been out for most of the last year and had arrived to train with the team 48 hours before.

So the jury's out. Certainly couldn't hurt to add an experienced centre back (is CJ Brown sitting on the bench in Chicago?), but it's not necessarily anythign to worry about yet.

Ossington Mental Youth
03-10-2009, 10:35 AM
There are others who can do this more precisely....

MLSE received $3.3 million for Edu. Two-thirds were supposed to be used for "player development" or some such. So where did our $2.2 million go? Mo wanted to use it towards grass.

I know some small portion of that (maybe $500K? I'm guessing) is in this year's allocation, but where did the rest of it the $2.2 million go?

i might be wrong but im feeling pretty confident that the majority (if not all of it has to be used), hopefully someone can clarify

Stryker
03-10-2009, 11:33 AM
If they were to trade Wynne for Conrad I think we could look at it in a way of buying him. We're fairly certain Wynne will be sold to Europe sometime soon. I don't see him fetching nearly as much as Edu though. I would guess 2.5 million.
Two thirds of that is roughy 1.66 million. Is Conrad worth that? Nope.

Yohan
03-10-2009, 12:27 PM
If they were to trade Wynne for Conrad I think we could look at it in a way of buying him. We're fairly certain Wynne will be sold to Europe sometime soon. I don't see him fetching nearly as much as Edu though. I would guess 2.5 million.
Two thirds of that is roughy 1.66 million. Is Conrad worth that? Nope.
You gotta think in terms of MLS though, where transfer fee really doesnt mean as much, and you can only spend so much from any transfer fees you get anyways.

So better question might be, is Conrad worth trading Wynne for, an experienced MLS defender in prime of his career and would definitely plug that gap in the CB we've been looking for

James Oliphant
03-10-2009, 07:13 PM
Well said, Yohan.

ExiledRed
03-10-2009, 07:42 PM
Wynne's not going anywhere overseas, until he plays more intelligently. There are a thousand speedy little bastards in Europe, only the ones who know how to temper their speed with clever, intuitive play actually make it in the big leagues.

If Wynne does go, it should be because we sold him, I don't mind if future kids are falling over themselves to get onto TFC's roster.

That's much better than the "Toronto, Canada? er..no thanks" mentality we were faced with in seasons one and two.

Shway
03-10-2009, 10:18 PM
^^^its so true, its almost standard for LB and RB to been fast

bhoybobby
03-10-2009, 11:04 PM
Wynne has no 1st touch< &mediocre passing ability great speed. How many times did he get caught out of position, run back like a demon, the forward puts on the breaks, Wynne either over runs him,or gives up a dangerous foul/

He has to develop his football sense, learn how to pass. Right now we wouldn't get too much for him.

Ossington Mental Youth
03-10-2009, 11:15 PM
Wynne has no 1st touch< &mediocre passing ability great speed. How many times did he get caught out of position, run back like a demon, the forward puts on the breaks, Wynne either over runs him,or gives up a dangerous foul/

He has to develop his football sense, learn how to pass. Right now we wouldn't get too much for him.

definitely agree.
Hes getting better in positioning but still lacks in touch and passing.
Could never understand why people wanted him to play the wing