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BeachRed
05-27-2008, 10:22 AM
Okay, I wanted to ask this question for a while - do rivalries ever really do any good?

Now that Cathal Kelly has come out and said how good rivalries are, I'm even more convinced that they aren't.

"It doesn't matter if we get promoted as long as you beat ____ twice," is about the worst thing we can say. we've just told the management and the team that we don't care about championships.

The other line in the article that's scary is the, "Like the Leafs-Habs rivalry." I grew up in Montreal in the 70's and moved to Toronto in the 90's. That's when I found out there was apparently some rivalry between Montreal and Toronto. It meant nothing in Montreal. The Canadiens only care about the Cup. Beating Toronto was no sweeter than beating St. Louis or LA or anybody else. The Habs rivals are every other team in the league.

That's what happens with rivalries - the 'big team' doesn't really give a shit and the little team looks like an insecure girlfriend, obsessed with what the big team thinks.

I would hate to see TFC think it's more important to beat some team 2-3 times a season than win championships.

What do you all think?

Jay P
05-27-2008, 10:42 AM
Can't we have it all?

beat montreal/Van city in the NCCL, and compete for the MLS Cup and a spot in the super liga?

Rivalries are great... but I agree you can't lose sight of the task at hand and winning the MLS cup.

other MLS teams have rivalries...

well then again MLS as a whole think the redbulls are shite

Technorgasm
05-27-2008, 10:51 AM
WE ALL WANT TROPHIES!

but. . . take the leafs example:
Chance at Cup = 0
Chance at rubbing a win in the face of your Ottawa Senator's neighbors = VERY GOOD

Its my opinion that City pride has a lot to do with the pride for your club.

A victory over your neighbors is sweet and can be savoured. . . just like winning the CUp

a smaller victory by comparrison, but a victory sweeter than a regular match-up.
Plus it snot just a victory in the case of MTL impact but part of hte path to TRUE TORONTO FC INTERNATIONAL CLUB PLAY in the CONCACAF champs league. . a goal that I for one, would be SO PROUD of my club to achieve. . .

TORONTO FC!
THE KINGS OF CANADIAN FOOTBALL!

http://content.imagesocket.com/images/TFC_CSABigf47.jpg

OneLoveOneEric
05-27-2008, 10:58 AM
Rivalries without a competitive team are silly, I agree. But hopefully we can be competitive and have rivalries.
There is nothing more pathetic than a team like Man City celebrating a win over United like they've won the world cup while they languish mid-table.
Ditto for when the Leafs beat the Sens.
But, if either of those teams were actually competitive AND got to put one over on a rival...... YUM!

Ossington Mental Youth
05-27-2008, 11:39 AM
Can't we have it all?
yes we can
and we will

Ossington Mental Youth
05-27-2008, 11:41 AM
I think certain things are taken out of context.
The article isnt negating hte importance of winning silverware, its just emphasizing the importance of rivalries between two teams and how it can help a league/sport in a country (especially soccer in this country).

AL-MO
05-27-2008, 12:09 PM
Obvisously you want to win trophies, but along the way you want to beat your rivals face in....and in a season where a trophy is unlikely or not possible you at least want to take down your rivals along the way..

Don Julio
05-27-2008, 12:20 PM
If not for rivalries with other teams who cares if we win the cup?

MartinUtd
05-27-2008, 01:35 PM
That quote from Robinson is referring to two clubs with a combined 260 years of history... thats nearly double all of MLS put together!! There's no way this league can foster the kind of rivalry that lends itself to that kind of single mindedness.

noochie
05-27-2008, 01:50 PM
That quote from Robinson is referring to two clubs with a combined 260 years of history... thats nearly double all of MLS put together!! There's no way this league can foster the kind of rivalry that lends itself to that kind of single mindedness.

Just like the teams mentioned though... you have to start somewhere.

BeachRed
05-27-2008, 01:54 PM
That quote from Robinson is referring to two clubs with a combined 260 years of history... thats nearly double all of MLS put together!! There's no way this league can foster the kind of rivalry that lends itself to that kind of single mindedness.

The Citizen's Manifesto is cool, is that you?

The thing is, there is no Montreal-Toronto rivalry in hockey. It's totally one-sided, Montreal don't give a crap about Toronto (and seriously, they never really did). That's what happens with all these rivalries, it becomes really important for one side, but not the other.

I'm just wondering, really, if there's a single sports rivalry that's an actual rivalry?

MartinUtd
05-27-2008, 02:03 PM
Yeah sure, you do have to start somewhere but we're a long long way off before we see anything like Spurs/Gunners. With regards to the hockey rivalries... I can see there being a certain amount of ambivalence with the fans, but thats just the way the game is. With footy i'll be we can break through that barrier given the nature of teh support

And yeah, Citizens Manifesto is mine.. i have to keep reminding myself to write about things other than the US election.

Jay P
05-27-2008, 02:06 PM
I'm just wondering, really, if there's a single sports rivalry that's an actual rivalry?

New York Yankees vs. Boston Red Sox?

squarehead
05-28-2008, 03:24 PM
The Citizen's Manifesto is cool, is that you?

The thing is, there is no Montreal-Toronto rivalry in hockey. It's totally one-sided, Montreal don't give a crap about Toronto (and seriously, they never really did). That's what happens with all these rivalries, it becomes really important for one side, but not the other.

I'm just wondering, really, if there's a single sports rivalry that's an actual rivalry?

just wanted to bump this and wonder how come Montreal fans, who according to you don't have a beef with T Dot show up with "We Hate Toronto" signs and shit... like - this shit is kinda beyond even rivalry, cause hate is a pretty strong word

GuelphStorm2007
05-28-2008, 03:46 PM
New York Yankees vs. Boston Red Sox?
Don't Forget India v Pakistan in Cricket and Australia v All Blacks in Rugby, In both rivalrys people in those countries literally stop what they are doing.

squarehead
05-28-2008, 03:48 PM
Rangers vs Celtic

mighty_torontofc_2008
05-28-2008, 03:59 PM
Okay, I wanted to ask this question for a while - do rivalries ever really do any good?

Now that Cathal Kelly has come out and said how good rivalries are, I'm even more convinced that they aren't.

"It doesn't matter if we get promoted as long as you beat ____ twice," is about the worst thing we can say. we've just told the management and the team that we don't care about championships.

The other line in the article that's scary is the, "Like the Leafs-Habs rivalry." I grew up in Montreal in the 70's and moved to Toronto in the 90's. That's when I found out there was apparently some rivalry between Montreal and Toronto. It meant nothing in Montreal. The Canadiens only care about the Cup. Beating Toronto was no sweeter than beating St. Louis or LA or anybody else. The Habs rivals are every other team in the league.

That's what happens with rivalries - the 'big team' doesn't really give a shit and the little team looks like an insecure girlfriend, obsessed with what the big team thinks.

I would hate to see TFC think it's more important to beat some team 2-3 times a season than win championships.

What do you all think?

Rivalries....Celtic vs Rangers...you canna get better then that..the leafs habs is no longer what is was....Habs biggest and best rivalry to this day
is still Boston, the closeest thing to a celtic-rangers match in term of hatred. you need rivalries, it helps sell the game, thats why MLS wants another team in NY, and teams in montreal and vancouver..

BeachRed
05-28-2008, 04:09 PM
New York Yankees vs. Boston Red Sox?

For years this was a lot more important to Red Sox fans than Yankee fans. And maybe everyone hated the Yankees equally.

As for Rangers-Celtic, I don't know very much about it, is it the same for both sides? Is it really about sports? Does it really help?

These rivalries never seem to go well, they seem like either hatred using sports to let it out, or the other extreme, some cheap marketing ploy.

I think the hatred of Toronto is a good example. It has nothing to do with sports.

But maybe, the worst thing to happen is what happened to the Leafs. Doesn't matter if they win the Cup, as long as they beat Montreal or Ottawa in some meaningless mid-season game. That's usually what happens with these rivalries.

GBV
05-28-2008, 04:10 PM
rivalries are awesome, but they have to be authentic.
when the nhl tried to capitalize in certain rivalries by having the teams play each other every second freaking night, it killed part of the fun.

trane
05-28-2008, 06:20 PM
As far as I am concerned every team in the MLS is our rival. Fuck them all. I want trophies. Three points is three points.

james
05-28-2008, 08:00 PM
well for people who were in Montreal im pretty sure now beatting Montreal feels a whole lot better now!

Hooligan69
05-28-2008, 08:19 PM
As far as I am concerned every team in the MLS is our rival. Fuck them all. I want trophies. Three points is three points.

Quoted for truth. Well said.

gweeds1180
05-28-2008, 09:43 PM
I don't mean to stray away from footy talk, but I think the Leafs-Habs rivalry is highly underestimated IMO, I've been making the trek once a year to catch a Leafs game at the Smell Centre, and trust me, they do care, from the moment we round the corner and the arena is in sight, we're getting harassed, of course we harass back (only when our self defense is needed). There is nothing better then walking into their buildings (such as last night) or any other sport on any other night and claiming victory, the fans feel it, the players feed off it, and the past two times I've gone for the hockey game, the Leafs have either won in OT, or on a goal in the last minute.
Trust me, they hate us, this rivalry grew from hockey, from a time when these two cities were the only two Canadian Teams in the NHL, so to them, it was basically all of Anglo-Canada against Franco-Canada.
Of course in regards to TFC and TML, I'd want nothing more than a Championship for both, but having to sit through 2-2+ hours of having a whole section of their fans hammer you with constant insults from the moment you walk through the tunnel to your seats and then watch your team snatch a victory, Priceless.

Fort York Redcoat
05-29-2008, 07:22 AM
MLS cup? Supporters Shield? I'll take them for the wins but there's a ways to go before just the sight of them will make us covet them like older trophies in sport...

Steve
05-29-2008, 07:37 AM
I'm just wondering, really, if there's a single sports rivalry that's an actual rivalry?

Michigan-Ohio State?

Dave67
05-29-2008, 12:59 PM
The Citizen's Manifesto is cool, is that you?

The thing is, there is no Montreal-Toronto rivalry in hockey. It's totally one-sided, Montreal don't give a crap about Toronto (and seriously, they never really did). That's what happens with all these rivalries, it becomes really important for one side, but not the other.

I'm just wondering, really, if there's a single sports rivalry that's an actual rivalry?

First I thought I'd look up some definitions for rivalries

"Alpha dog rivalry: This takes place where a team is despised on such a large scale that every opposing team and its fanbase treats the contest as life and death, even when the despised team harbors no animosity."

So I guess you would put Leafs Habs in here

though many would say it is

"Enduring rivalry: These are the ultimate matchups. Families are divided by them. People choose sides and never look back. Anybody who crosses the line is viewed as a traitor. These rivalries have a long tradition of animosity on both sides and are draped in history. Fans and players on both sides get up whenever the teams play, no matter the records. These games can make or break seasons. Some think they are more important than winning a championship. These incorporate elements from all the other rivalries. These can take place between teams from the same city or from opposite coasts. Each has its own lore. Most geopolitical rivalries fit this category. "

and I would put it in

"Dormant rivalry: This categorizes great rivalries that have cooled but could easily return to top form under the right conditions."


So seeing as there are many versions of rivalry then yes there are still real rivalries. Very American ESPN rates it the 5th greatest rivalry in North America ** Of which they apparently don't include Mexico... or soccer

"5. Maple Leafs vs. Canadiens
When the NHL consisted of six teams, that meant everybody played each other all the time. And no game was as intense as this one. It pitted French Canada vs. English Canada, making it a symbol of hockey's and Canada's history. They've met five times in the Stanley Cup Finals, with Montreal winning in 1959 and '60 and Toronto winning in '45, '51 and '67. Last year, Toronto was moved back into the Eastern Conference to rebuild the rivalry. Visiting fans often drown out the locals in each arena, so you never can tell who's the home team, and even when either team is terrible, players get revved up for regular-season games."

gweeds1180
05-29-2008, 06:41 PM
"Enduring rivalry: These are the ultimate matchups. Families are divided by them. People choose sides and never look back. Anybody who crosses the line is viewed as a traitor. These rivalries have a long tradition of animosity on both sides and are draped in history. Fans and players on both sides get up whenever the teams play, no matter the records. These games can make or break seasons. Some think they are more important than winning a championship. These incorporate elements from all the other rivalries. These can take place between teams from the same city or from opposite coasts. Each has its own lore. Most geopolitical rivalries fit this category. "

[/quote]


ie. Montreal Canadiens - Quebec Nordiques

BeachRed
05-29-2008, 08:13 PM
[quote=gweeds1180;25601

ie. Montreal Canadiens - Quebec Nordiques[/quote]

I remember renting an apartment in Montreal and the landlord, who didn't speak any english and was a hardcore PQ supporter told me, with my Irish last name, that we might have a problem -- come playoff time. He was, of course, a Nordiques fan and assumed I was a Canadiens fan.

So, Montreal was the federalist team when they were up against the Nordiques, but the Quebecois team when they were up against the Leafs. Hmmm.

The thing is, even the oldest Canadiens teams were never really French. as far back as any rivalry may have gone, they had plenty of english players and coaches and managers.

It's a rivalry of convenience, a phony media construct. And Leafs fans buy it.

james
05-30-2008, 12:37 AM
some rivalries in Soccer mean life and death for fans. When teams are only maybe a few blocks away from there rival team, hate grows fast. Maybe right now rivalries dont really mean much to us because we are such a new team, and most teams are a 10 hours drive away minimum. I mean really we dont see much New York, or New England or Houston fans. Its hard to hate say New York Red Bull fans when ive only ever seen maybe 10 of them, and ive never even spoke to them once, it really makes it hard to have a rivalry against them. We might have rivalries on the field, but as far as between the fans i dont have a true hate for any of the teams (tho after being in Montreal for the away game on Tuesday i can see one growing between each other very fast considerring that was are first ever match, and we already had a mini brawl). But hey not like its a bad thing between Montreal and Toronto, hate can bring a whole new atmosphere and a win can mean so much more then just 3 points.

neuf
05-30-2008, 07:18 AM
Roma - Lazio