Defender, GK and Midfield rumours - 24th min.

[Nuvinho]

Don't know if this has been posted:

http://24thminute.blogspot.com/




Yesterday's addition of domestic defender Andrian Serioux (which is now official, by the way) was not the central defender that Mo Johnston has been targeting. Evidently the phone lines are still burning on that front (Du'etime and all that). But, everyone close to the situation says the same thing--it will happen. There will be another defender with the team when it breaks camp (The 24th Minute bullcrap meter says -- highly likely!)
Stepfan Frei has all but won the back-up role and is pushing Greg Sutton to the max for the starting keeper position. Brian Edwards will likely be shipped off to another MLS team looking for a back-up (don't expect more than a late draft pick TFC fans). Frei has literally been the talk of the camp. (The 24th Minute bullcrap metre says -- likely).
Not so much a rumour, but an observation. Sam Cronin is turning heads and he may force his way into the starting line-up. It will be difficult -- really he's competing with Carl Robinson and it doesn't seem likely that he will bump the veteran -- but the rookie will see the pitch in 2009. (The 24th Minute bullcrap metre says -- highly likely he's turning heads; not likely he's going to start)
Marco Velez is keeping his suitcase packed. This one I'm taking with a grain of salt for now because it seems as much TFC fan fantasy as it does legitimate rumour. However, Velez did seem to fall out of favour near the end of last season and if Nana Attakora continues to develop he could be excess baggage. Two sources told me that it's a matter of when, not if, that Velez will be waved. Seattle has been suggested as a possible landing pad for him. (The 24th Minute bullcrap metre says -- not enough information, but possible.)

[Troll]

IN-teresting...

[Ossington Mental Youth]

most sounds reasonable, dont see Frei replacing Sutton (itll be the same as last year and Sutton will win again), same goes for Cronin/Robbo, not surprised by Velez leaving, only question is who do we sign in his place (Garcia?)

[djking2]

I don't see the benefit of moving Velez and starting the season without anybody that has the experience of a season at centre back in the MLS. I know Velez can piss ya off at times, but I remember the "Marco-Velez" chants last year during the streak at home when everybody loved him too. Our collapse as a team had more to do with not being able to score than defensive blunders.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

yeah, that does make sense, however if there is potential to bring someone in who has experience in a higher league than it wouldnt hurt.

I do agree that Velez gets alot of unnecessary hate on this forum

[poppamidnight]

most sounds reasonable, dont see Frei replacing Sutton (itll be the same as last year and Sutton will win again), same goes for Cronin/Robbo, not surprised by Velez leaving, only question is who do we sign in his place (Garcia?)

It's all about the #'s now...

If Frei is that good that he even comes close to sutton, by all means SHIP HIM OFF.

You've seen Suttons cap-hit right?

I don't understand why we'd be interested in shipping off a backup keeper, who's a respectable backup with minute cap-hit

Many said Frei was the steal of the draft, which is why i'm taking it to be true that he is indeed giving Sutton a run for his money...

I don't know about you, but if you ask me if i want another player with the calibre of:
a - Vitti, De Ro, Serioux
or
b - Sutton

I'm going with a - ... if shipping sutton's contract out means attaining another - and we have a better replacement, why the heck not?

being :canada: means I love ya
being :canada: does not mean we're married - a painfull seperation, but certainly one that feasible

[djking2]

yeah, that does make sense, however if there is potential to bring someone in who has experience in a higher league than it wouldnt hurt.


Oh for sure. Hell I hope we can call Velez a depth player by the time the season starts.

[poppamidnight]

and PS - Velez won't get traded unless we bring another spanish-speaking player...

TFC can't really afford to have a translater on hand all the time, (like the Seattle Mariners did when Ichiro first came out)...

..no offense to Marco... but he's a practice-sqad calibre translator right now

Amado's english experiment evidently didnt go to well...
...lets hope Pablo studies our language w/ a passion

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Dude, youre view of goalkeeping is severely skewed, Sutton is going nowhere regardless of the numbers, experience is what we are paying for.

Velez will be shipped off before Sutton does
and we dont know how well or poorly Guevara has done in english unless youre talking to him on a day to day basis

[Blizzard]

Dude, youre view of goalkeeping is severely skewed, Sutton is going nowhere regardless of the numbers, experience is what we are paying for.

Velez will be shipped off before Sutton does
and we dont know how well or poorly Guevara has done in english unless youre talking to him on a day to day basis

Ya, there's no way we allow ourselves to dispose of our experienced goaltender during a year in which we hope to make major strides.

A rookie goalkeeping tandem for the entire season? I think not!

Remember Wregget and Bester? Anybody? No? Nobody? F-ck off! :cool:

[Ossington Mental Youth]

HAHAHA
maybe people remember how well LA did having rid of Canon for the cheaper alternative

[Damien]

Velez's bags are packed...
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_pXAwYhfqhgQ/Rf6yWGOPCGI/AAAAAAAAAQw/dal_fhfXosY/s400/02_hobo.jpg

[ExiledRed]

Sutton's made some excellent saves, but he's also let in some real doozies.

He's absolutely terrible at distributing the ball, once it's in his hands. This is something Edwards was much better at, and I'm assuming Frei is too.

Ball distribution is extremely important, and often overlooked. Many a chance is created when the goalie reads the game and gets the ball where it needs to be. Sutton's no good at it, and that's got to be frustrating for the rest of the squad.

I don't want to see him go, but unless he improves in this area, he cant stay for long.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

Basically its a matter of opinion whether or not Sutton is liked as to whether he goes i would bet a healthy sum of money that he will stay put, simply because the other two just dont have the mls experience and hes a canadian. His salary isnt that much of a deal especially with the allocation money we still have.

[ExiledRed]

Basically its a matter of opinion whether or not Sutton is liked as to whether he goes i would bet a healthy sum of money that he will stay put, simply because the other two just dont have the mls experience and hes a canadian. His salary isnt that much of a deal especially with the allocation money we still have.

It's not like Suttons 'MLS experience' is anything more than a couple of dodgy seasons, especially considering he missed most of the first.

Why is experience more valuable than talent anyway?

If the inexperienced guy is prodigous, and the experienced guy is suspect, I'm putting talent first. There's only one way a player gets experience anyhow.

[Ossington Mental Youth]

I understand what youre saying but Sutton has been playing professional soccer for almost a decade at this point at different levels and has also played for the national team 11 times, that hardly amounts to a couple of dodgy sessions.

I dont think a couple of preseason games and some college games allows for the full picture of the players talent. Thats not to mention the fact that a prodigy is constantly learning and would benefit from the experiences of a player that has been playing for a decade.

[ensco]

This experience thing is overrated in sports in general, and way overrated at the GK position. I care about talent, not experience. People who say "you need experience at GK", what is the proof of this? There are lots of young GK starters playing for very respectable teams in Europe. The fact that AC Milan or Chelsea don't do it is really a different point.

However, teamwork does matter, you don't want to be shuttling guys in and out of the lineup. The GK needs to be in sync with his back line.

Sutton was average but inconsistent last year. He makes $158K. Was he really better than Sam Reynolds, who made $33K? Even Stama wasn't bad (ex that goal he allowed against NE). If we go with Frei, we can always get a veteran to back him up at a lower cost.

With Serioux coming in, I think it's more than likely that Sutton will be cut, unless he has a guaranteed contract.

[Mikey]

It's not like Suttons 'MLS experience' is anything more than a couple of dodgy seasons, especially considering he missed most of the first.

Never ceases to amaze me, the outbreaks of Goldfish memory syndrome in the off-season. There were more than a couple of games last season where it was Sutton v. the entire opposing team, with our lame ass defense nowhere to be seen.
He saved us the embarrasment of a 7-0 wipeout more than once.

I would happily ship out Brennan before Sutton, as most teams have no problem getting past him and getting a shot in.....:p

[Oblio2]

I like Sutton...he's a good guy but a below average keeper

[Stouffville_RPB]

I like Sutton...he's a good guy but a below average keeper

He's Canadian too, which works in his favour.

[CoachGT]

Talent vs experience? A good coach who is in fear for his job and is in a win-at-all-costs situation will play a veteran. A good coach who is secure in the job and is looking to the future will play unproven talent over experience. In this case, I'm not sure that Frei will start, but he will challenge, and that is a good thing. If Frei plays as many games as Edwards last year, it should be a successful season (assuming he plays well) for him.

[Lucky Strike]

Sutton's made some excellent saves, but he's also let in some real doozies.

He's absolutely terrible at distributing the ball, once it's in his hands. This is something Edwards was much better at, and I'm assuming Frei is too.

Ball distribution is extremely important, and often overlooked. Many a chance is created when the goalie reads the game and gets the ball where it needs to be. Sutton's no good at it, and that's got to be frustrating for the rest of the squad.

I don't want to see him go, but unless he improves in this area, he cant stay for long.

Crappy distribution is in fact a big problem for me but couldn't someone just tell him to pass it short much more often? We have a very competent midfield now, Sutton doesn't need to bypass it to try and get some offense going.

[Section 117]

I would happily ship out Brennan before Sutton, as most teams have no problem getting past him and getting a shot in.....:p

I concur even as a back up Sutton is ok in my books. He will have his occasional gaff.... Cause a lot of games last year if wasn't for Sutton it would have gotten ugly.

On the other hand there is no excuse for the lack of defending by our entire back four including Brennan and Wynne who are by far less than stellar defenders who don't really get any flack

[TorontoBlades]

never flack the skip

[olegunnar]

Crappy distribution is in fact a big problem for me but couldn't someone just tell him to pass it short much more often? We have a very competent midfield now, Sutton doesn't need to bypass it to try and get some offense going.

Pass it short? Like when he rolled the ball to a chivas player and gift wrapped them a win?

I've been saying for a couple of years now that Sutton is a big lanky guy that doesn't know how to play the position. Sometimes he gets in the way and it looks spectacular (which endears him to the hockey fans that are new to football) but for the most part that's all he is. He's not a goalkeeper, he's a big guy that gets in the way. Positioning, crosses, distribution, durability!...are all glaring weaknesses of his.

Considering he counts 160K against the cap (Edwards and Frei COMBINED count for $45K) and considering we've added 3 domestics in the off season....he needs to be moved.

[Section 117]

never flack the skip


Are you kidding me???? The only reason he is starting let alone the skip is he is from Toronto. I thought Dunnivant was a better defender

I support him, but at the end of the day don't give him free regin just because of he is the skip. He should be held accountable for his play just like everyone else and last year his defending was at best below average

[Steve]

Pass it short? Like when he rolled the ball to a chivas player and gift wrapped them a win?

I've been saying for a couple of years now that Sutton is a big lanky guy that doesn't know how to play the position. Sometimes he gets in the way and it looks spectacular (which endears him to the hockey fans that are new to football) but for the most part that's all he is. He's not a goalkeeper, he's a big guy that gets in the way. Positioning, crosses, distribution, durability!...are all glaring weaknesses of his.

Considering he counts 160K against the cap (Edwards and Frei COMBINED count for $45K) and considering we've added 3 domestics in the off season....he needs to be moved.

I understand that point of view to an extent, but experience does count for something. Think about last year, Edwards impressed at pre-season, then came in for our first game and looked completely lost. Skill aside, if all of out GK needs are resting on the shoulders of rookies, they may just freeze up. You never know how someone is going to psychologically react to having the weight of the team on them, and I feel much more secure keeping Sutton for this year (even if Frei starts, I'd rather know that if Frei suddenly gets a case of the heeby jeebies, we have someone as solid as sutton there to take the reins).


Are you kidding me???? The only reason he is starting let alone the skip is he is from Toronto. I thought Dunnivant was a better defender

I support him, but at the end of the day don't give him free regin just because of he is the skip. He should be held accountable for his play just like everyone else and last year his defending was at best below average

I agree actually. He wasn't that great last year. He was good, but not the superstar people on here seem to think. In fact, I don't even think he should be our captain. Robbo seems like a more level headed guy, and a great leader on and off the pitch. I would rather Robbo have the armband full time.

[rocker]

i'd like to actually see Frei play one time before I start handing Sutton his bags. :)
I also haven't seen enough from Edwards yet to be confident he can start in this league. I loooove his distribution but I haven't seen enough to be confident in him overall.

We know Sutton too well, and we don't know Edwards and Frei well enough.

[Lucky Strike]

Pass it short? Like when he rolled the ball to a chivas player and gift wrapped them a win?

I've been saying for a couple of years now that Sutton is a big lanky guy that doesn't know how to play the position. Sometimes he gets in the way and it looks spectacular (which endears him to the hockey fans that are new to football) but for the most part that's all he is. He's not a goalkeeper, he's a big guy that gets in the way. Positioning, crosses, distribution, durability!...are all glaring weaknesses of his.

Considering he counts 160K against the cap (Edwards and Frei COMBINED count for $45K) and considering we've added 3 domestics in the off season....he needs to be moved.

Lol, I actually don't remember that. I still do think his distribution could be improved by playing long less often though, despite the mistake you've mentioned (I'll take your word on it).

As for what happens to Sutts, him being Canadian shouldn't be a reason for us to keep him, we ought to go with whoever is best. If that's Edwards or Frei instead, then OK. However, in my books, experience does count for something (though it's not the be-all end-all) and we should have Sutts at least as the back-up to take over if either youngster cracks under the pressure. Performing well in practice and in matches is quite different. His 158K salary is quite huge though, but until we know that Edwards or Frei can be good consistently, we'll have to suck it up and hold on to Sutton.

[olegunnar]

Lol, I actually don't remember that. I still do think his distribution could be improved by playing long less often though, despite the mistake you've mentioned (I'll take your word on it).



Last August.
The game where he let the dribbler in through his hands in the last minute of stoppage time.
The whole flurry was started when he rolled the ball out and it was intercepted.

The worst one for distribution was a few weeks later at KC. The whole game was KC marching forward, screwing up in the final third, then Sutton hoofing it back to them. Repeat ad lib and fade.

[Hitcho]

This experience thing is overrated in sports in general, and way overrated at the GK position. I care about talent, not experience. People who say "you need experience at GK", what is the proof of this? There are lots of young GK starters playing for very respectable teams in Europe. The fact that AC Milan or Chelsea don't do it is really a different point.

However, teamwork does matter, you don't want to be shuttling guys in and out of the lineup. The GK needs to be in sync with his back line.

Sutton was average but inconsistent last year. He makes $158K. Was he really better than Sam Reynolds, who made $33K? Even Stama wasn't bad (ex that goal he allowed against NE). If we go with Frei, we can always get a veteran to back him up at a lower cost.

With Serioux coming in, I think it's more than likely that Sutton will be cut, unless he has a guaranteed contract.

Experience counts for a lot when you play in goal (or at CB). Talent is important, btu you need to blend ti with experience before it's all that useful. having bags of talent but making a hatful of rookie errors will quickly lead to a lack of confidence in the rookie and in goal that's a disaster. I agree that talent without experience can overcome an established player's experience just of itself, but you'd have to be prodigiously talented and if frei was that good he'd be in europe by now.

those ragging on brennan need ot think hard about themselves. Jimmy B has literally bled for this team, he carried the defence in our first season playing at CB even though he's a left mid player really and last season at full back he was brillianty going forward and he ALWAYS leads by example. TD was not a better defender, much as I liked him. Whatever Brennan may lack at LB (and it's not that much frankly, he wasn't turned and ebaten that often) he more than makes up for in what he offers to the team in leadership and commitment. TFC without Brennan would be a weaker outfit, regardless of who we replaced him with.

[Section 117]

those ragging on brennan need ot think hard about themselves. Jimmy B has literally bled for this team, he carried the defence in our first season playing at CB even though he's a left mid player really and last season at full back he was brillianty going forward and he ALWAYS leads by example. TD was not a better defender, much as I liked him. Whatever Brennan may lack at LB (and it's not that much frankly, he wasn't turned and ebaten that often) he more than makes up for in what he offers to the team in leadership and commitment. TFC without Brennan would be a weaker outfit, regardless of who we replaced him with.

Hitcho lets agree to disagree about Brennan as we could argue this all day long. Yes he has played out of position at CB, but I am not sure what games you watch as I clearly remeber many times Brennan with his hands on his hips after either he was beaten and his man set up the goal or his man actually scored.

He is ok not great IMO he wouldn't start on my team, but TFC has no other option as they named him captain before we even had a team and they traded away his replacement